I bought a can of General Finishes "Candelite" Gel Stain. There was a
sample, on oak, in the store. I'm using red oak.
I applied the stain to a test piece. The color - BEFORE wiping off the
"excess" - looked something like the sample, as I remember it anyway.
(the can has a small "artist's rendering of the color) After wiping?
Well, that was quite different. "Washed out" is the best way to describe
it.
I made another test, rubbing MORE with the application rag, waiting a
little longer (maybe a minute and a half), and then wiping off GENTLY.
This produced somewhat more color, but still nothing like what was
advertised.
I have come to understand that the Gel "Stain" and Gel "Topcoat" are
actually the same substance; different only in that one has colorant and
the other does not. I decided to try another coat of Gel Stain. (I
waited a couple of days in-between)
The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
after several coats?
More importantly, if the "stain" and "topcoat" are both some sort of
poly varnish, does this mean that coats of stain "count" as coats of
varnish? Meaning, if 4 coats of gel varnish were recommended for good
protection, could I do 2 of stain and 2 of topcoat for example? Or even
3 stain and 1 topcoat? Or is there a certain minimum number of clear
coats needed, say two?
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On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 12:23:07 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
=20
> Generally speaking all stains should be thoroughly wiped off when apply=
=20
>=20
> by brush or rag. If you want darker let the coats thoroughly dry,=20
>=20
> preferably over night. BE SURE TO THOROUGHLY STIR before using.
That is something most folks don't do, and that is to stir the gel stains b=
efore using. I found that one out the hard way when using a dark color tha=
t started out looking like chocolate pudding in the can, then gradually wen=
t to a dark chocolate candy bar color. Usually I only have to screw myself=
once and I am "good to go" after that, and in this case I never forgot all=
the extra work that caused me.
As far as gel stains having any protective elements in them, maybe some do.=
I use Old Master's gels exclusively as they are very consistent and predi=
ctable, and they are the only gels I could use successfully when staining f=
iberglass entry doors. Nothing else on the market (this was a few years ag=
o) would penetrate the gel coat surface and hold on when finishing. The Ol=
d Master's rep (remember when we had factory trained experts?) told me that=
it was due to the actual size of their coloring particulates and resin mat=
rix used to suspend the particles. I asked it was some kind of protective =
coating due to its plastic feel when dry, and he gave and adamant NO. Appa=
rently some had mistaken their newly wiped coloring for being a colored or =
tinted finishing product and there had been quite a stir over that.
Keep in mind I am only referencing Old Master's gel stain.
> Most gel varnishes go on so thinly that you probably will never get=20
>=20
> the same thickness of protection as you will with a liquid varnish.=20
>=20
> Basically gel varnishes protect against something staining the finish if=
=20
>=20
> caught quickly enough and NOT from maring or scratching through to the=20
>=20
> wood. You still need to take care of what you built.
Personally, I look at wipe on varnishes and poly as "adult" finishes. I lik=
e the thin finish they leave that shows off the wood itself much more than =
a nice thick coat of some clear coat that is designed to protect against su=
n, water/liquids, chemicals and detergents, and the abrasion of everyday us=
e. They are great for bookcases, adult furniture, a low use table like a l=
amp table, a hutch or buffet, etc. It does not stand up to family use, bac=
helor use, etc., as it has little water resistance, almost no chemical resi=
stance, little abrasion resistance, and >>ZERO<< ultra violet ray resistanc=
e. =20
When I was more involved with the woodworking community here in town, I tri=
ed to help the guys understand when to use and when not to use gel top coat=
s. I had a difficult time as they all loved the ease of application that d=
idn't require any cleanup, or shop prep to keep the dust down. Who doesn't=
?
But they were addicted to Watco. Our local Woodcraft was their enabler on =
that. The prescribed Watco for everything from jewelry boxes (good!) to ta=
ble tops (not so much...) and gleefully grabbed a can whenever asked for a =
recommendation. They weren't that happy when they saw what a spill of oran=
ge juice, with all its acidic glory did to the top of they were distracted =
and didn't get it cleaned up immediately.
Three good coats of Watch properly applied will give you about 1/2 to 3/4 o=
f one millimeter of final dried finish. Finish manufacturers and applicato=
rs accept the industry standard on a horizontal surface to be 2 to 3 millim=
eters! I know that is what I shoot for, and that is why it takes two coats=
brushed or padded, and then maybe three when sprayed to get to 3mm. This =
is why when learning proper spray and technique you learn to use this:
http://www.binks.com/resources/tip-of-the-week/why-should-i-use-a-wet-film-=
thickness-gauge
However, it also translates well to hand applied finishes (except gels, whi=
ch are too thin to accurately measure). These are cheap to buy and provide=
an excellent way to ensure that you are applying enough material to a surf=
ace to follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Since a lot of folks don=
't know how much to apply, much less how much they are applying, I always r=
ecommended to the guys learning good finishing techniques to use these so t=
hey could recognize different thicknesses of coats. A nice tutorial on how=
to use the gauge:
http://www.geionline.com/wet-film-gauge
As always, just my 0.02.
Robert
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> Stupid bloody keys...:(
>
Maybe you should clean them so you can see the letters. :-)
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 9/10/2014 8:30 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 9/10/2014 1:23 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Again be sure to thoroughly mix the gel stain, if it is liquidly on top
>> it is not likely to cover as advertised.
>
> I didn't do this. It seemed like a "gel" on top, not "liquidy", but I
> guess it's worth stirring it to see if it makes a difference.
>
> It looks like I can get a color I like with 3 coats of stain, but I'd be
> much happier with fewer steps, especially as the project has lots of
> nooks and crannies.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14345718026/in/set-72157644207411490
Yeah have fun with that. ;~) Hind sight, you have a bunch of dowels
holding this together, I would have stained everything before glue up.
With all the dowels I would not worry about stain and or the finish
getting on contact glue surfaces. I would have varnished the inner
pieces too before glue up.
Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
corners and or those that would be difficult to get to before assembly.
Keep us posted with pics.!
>
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On 9/10/2014 1:18 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 9/10/2014 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:
>> Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
>> corners and or those that would be difficult to get to, before assembly.
>
> Me too. I like that I don't have to worry too much about glue
> squeeze-out. But this time I decided it would be too much trouble to
> mask all of the joint surfaces. That was *before* I was advised that the
> glue on the dowels would be strong enough by itself.
>
> Live and learn.
>
And as you become more experienced you have less and less squeeze out.
You are doing great Greg! Keep up the good work. ;~)
>
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>
On 9/9/2014 7:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I bought a can of General Finishes "Candelite" Gel Stain. There was a
> sample, on oak, in the store. I'm using red oak.
>
> I applied the stain to a test piece. The color - BEFORE wiping off the
> "excess" - looked something like the sample, as I remember it anyway.
> (the can has a small "artist's rendering of the color) After wiping?
> Well, that was quite different. "Washed out" is the best way to describe
> it.
>
> I made another test, rubbing MORE with the application rag, waiting a
> little longer (maybe a minute and a half), and then wiping off GENTLY.
> This produced somewhat more color, but still nothing like what was
> advertised.
Generally speaking all stains should be thoroughly wiped off when apply
by brush or rag. If you want darker let the coats thoroughly dry,
preferably over night. BE SURE TO THOROUGHLY STIR before using.
AND as Swingman commented the final sanding grit will be important as to
how dark the stain ends up. The finer the sanding grit the less the
stain will darken. I never go past 180 when staining. Test a piece
with a coarser grit for the final sanding.
>
> I have come to understand that the Gel "Stain" and Gel "Topcoat" are
> actually the same substance; different only in that one has colorant and
> the other does not. I decided to try another coat of Gel Stain. (I
> waited a couple of days in-between)
No not the same but many gel stains do have a bit of finish/varnish.
Gel varnishes will protect the stain finish.
>
> The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
> coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
> color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
> after several coats?
I have found that General Finishes colors are not created equally. I
have used darker General Finishes gel stains that ended up lighter than
lighter colors of the same product.
Again be sure to thoroughly mix the gel stain, if it is liquidly on top
it is not likely to cover as advertised.
>
> More importantly, if the "stain" and "topcoat" are both some sort of
> poly varnish, does this mean that coats of stain "count" as coats of
> varnish?
No
Meaning, if 4 coats of gel varnish were recommended for good
> protection, could I do 2 of stain and 2 of topcoat for example? Or even
> 3 stain and 1 topcoat? Or is there a certain minimum number of clear
> coats needed, say two?
You want to protect the stain finish, doing so will also naturally
protect the wood. The Gel varnish is going to give the surface a more
protected finish but mostly will give a consistent sheen to the surface.
Most gel varnishes go on so thinly that you probably will never get
the same thickness of protection as you will with a liquid varnish.
Basically gel varnishes protect against something staining the finish if
caught quickly enough and NOT from maring or scratching through to the
wood. You still need to take care of what you built.
One last thing, air circulation can be a determent to applying many
stains or varnishes, especially gel varnishes. If the varnish or stain
is drying too fast, before wiping off the excess, turn off the fan if
working with one. Otherwise work smaller areas.
>
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>
> I applied the stain to a test piece. The color - BEFORE wiping off the
> "excess" - looked something like the sample, as I remember it anyway.
> (the can has a small "artist's rendering of the color) After wiping?
> Well, that was quite different. "Washed out" is the best way to describe
> it.
>
> I made another test, rubbing MORE with the application rag, waiting a
> little longer (maybe a minute and a half), and then wiping off GENTLY.
> This produced somewhat more color, but still nothing like what was
> advertised.
I suggest checking out Charles Neill's blotch control ...
https://charlesneilwoodworking.3dcartstores.com/Charles-Neils-Pre-Color-Conditioner--Blotch-Control_p_47.html
It also allows you to apply a dye or stain strongly and evenly.
Google this product and see all the positive reviews.
I have no financial interest ,,,blah,blah,blah.
On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:23:27 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch. Three
>
> millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant mils?
>
YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and fingers there was a disconnect.
Thanks for he correction!
Robert
On Friday, September 12, 2014 12:02:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> Maybe you should clean them so you can see the letters. :-)
If dadiOH is like me, sometimes the KEYS are simply in the wrong place. I will be addressing this with my keyboard when I get a chance. Sadly, it might do no good as they could all be moved again, with me being the last to know!
Robert
On 9/9/2014 7:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
> coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
> color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
> after several coats?
What was the final grit used when sanding?
--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 9/12/2014 2:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, September 12, 2014 12:02:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Maybe you should clean them so you can see the letters. :-)
>
> If dadiOH is like me, sometimes the KEYS are simply in the wrong place. I will be addressing this with my keyboard when I get a chance. Sadly, it might do no good as they could all be moved again, with me being the last to know!
>
> Robert
>
>
The problem with these keyboards, made in China, is that they don't
understand goot English not the least Texan. ;~)
On 9/9/2014 8:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 9/9/2014 7:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
>> coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
>> color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
>> after several coats?
>
> What was the final grit used when sanding?
>
I tried to post this before but must have sent it by email instead. I'm
pretty sure I sanded the sample pieces to 180, the same grit I sanded to
on the project parts.
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On 9/10/2014 1:23 AM, Leon wrote:
> Again be sure to thoroughly mix the gel stain, if it is liquidly on top
> it is not likely to cover as advertised.
I didn't do this. It seemed like a "gel" on top, not "liquidy", but I
guess it's worth stirring it to see if it makes a difference.
It looks like I can get a color I like with 3 coats of stain, but I'd be
much happier with fewer steps, especially as the project has lots of
nooks and crannies.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14345718026/in/set-72157644207411490
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"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> It looks like I can get a color I like with 3 coats of stain, but I'd be
> much happier with fewer steps, especially as the project has lots of
> nooks and crannies.
FWIW, stain isn't supposed to "coat", it is supposed to stain; i.e, be
absorbed (superficially) into the wood...inevitably, it also catches into
any surface imperfections be they wood grain or scratches. All of which
means that the rougher the surface the darker the color.
--
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____________________________
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On 9/10/2014 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:
> Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
> corners and or those that would be difficult to get to, before assembly.
Me too. I like that I don't have to worry too much about glue
squeeze-out. But this time I decided it would be too much trouble to
mask all of the joint surfaces. That was *before* I was advised that the
glue on the dowels would be strong enough by itself.
Live and learn.
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On 9/10/2014 2:18 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 9/10/2014 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:
>> Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
>> corners and or those that would be difficult to get to, before assembly.
>
> Me too. I like that I don't have to worry too much about glue
> squeeze-out. But this time I decided it would be too much trouble to
> mask all of the joint surfaces. That was *before* I was advised that the
> glue on the dowels would be strong enough by itself.
>
> Live and learn.
>
I should add that the only parts that are already glued up are the
"ladders". I have masked the glue-joint areas for the remaining pieces
in preparation for prefinishing them, should I ever settle on a method,
that is.
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<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Three good coats of Watch properly applied will give you about 1/2 to
> 3/4
> of one millimeter of final dried finish. Finish manufacturers and
> applicators accept the industry standard on a horizontal surface to be 2
> to 3 millimeters! I know that is what I shoot for, and that is why it
> takes two coats brushed or padded, and then maybe three when sprayed to
> get to 3mm.
Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch. Three
millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant mils?
--
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____________________________
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On 9/10/2014 7:23 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> Three good coats of Watch properly applied will give you about 1/2 to 3/4
>> of one millimeter of final dried finish. Finish manufacturers and
>> applicators accept the industry standard on a horizontal surface to be 2
>> to 3 millimeters! I know that is what I shoot for, and that is why it
>> takes two coats brushed or padded, and then maybe three when sprayed to
>> get to 3mm.
>
>
> Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch. Three
> millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant mils?
>
>
>
Hey, you can never have too much protection.
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<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:23:27 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>
> > Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch.
> > Three
> >
> > millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant
> > mils?
> >
>
> YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and
> fingers there was a disconnect.
I dig...sort of like "wul" for would and "knat" for gnat. Typing is not
my long suite. :(
--
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____________________________
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On 2014-09-11, dadiOH <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant
>> > mils?
>>
>> YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and
>> fingers there was a disconnect.
>
> I dig...sort of like "wul" for would and "knat" for gnat. Typing is not
> my long suite. :(
And "suite" for "suit"? :)
[Sorry, couldn't resist.]
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! TONY RANDALL! Is YOUR
at life a PATIO of FUN??
gmail.com
"Grant Edwards" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 2014-09-11, dadiOH <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you
> > > > meant
> > > > mils?
> > >
> > > YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and
> > > fingers there was a disconnect.
> >
> > I dig...sort of like "wul" for would and "knat" for gnat. Typing is
> > not
> > my long suite. :(
>
> And "suite" for "suit"? :)
>
> [Sorry, couldn't resist.]
Stupid bloody keys...:(
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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