The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...
A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
quick satellite view of the area at
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.916485,-68.867798&spn=1.789146,2.27417&z=10
and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/5mPump.html
Wish us luck!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Wish us luck!
Wishing you a lot more than luck, Morris.
In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Plus - if we can get this thing working, there's a team already forming
> in Khartoum who'll be able to put it to work immediately to expand the
> arable area on either side of the Nile.
That's freakin' awesome.
How can we contribute to the effort?
On Oct 3, 9:25=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote innews:[email protected]:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
> > that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following
> > my efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
> > devices, this might be interesting...
>
> > A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has
> > decided to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but
> > there's underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can
> > get a quick satellite view of the area at
>
> >http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D-32.916485,-68.867798&spn=3D1.789146,2.=
274
> > 17&z=3D10
>
> > and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at
>
> >http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/5mPump.html
>
> > Wish us luck!
>
> Go for it Morris, and good luck to the Argentinos (spelling?)!!
Argentines. And don't mistake them for Bolivians.
JP
On Oct 3, 5:21=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
> that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
> efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
> devices, this might be interesting...
>
> A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
> to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
> underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
> quick satellite view of the area at
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D-32.916485,-68.867798&spn=3D1.789146,2.2=
...
>
> and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/5mPump.html
>
> Wish us luck!
Best of luck in getting your designs recognized. This is truly great
stuff and it is people like you and your collaborators who will end up
saving ourselves from our current folly.
Luigi
Luigi
On Oct 4, 3:04=A0am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
> [2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
> or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. I identified
> the problem, stuck a post-it on the wall, and moved on. If there's a
> pump guru somewhere who can figure out how to use the fluidyne's
> alternating pressures to do that job, there's a real opportunity to be a
> hero by showing how to do it. My best guess was to use two pumps - one
> at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
> to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
> better way, but I don't know what it might be.
>
<snip/> --
When you said earlier that the next step was a "10m solution" , I
thought about two pumps as well, but with a tank buried half way,
stepping the water up. Might need to consider overflow or dry tank
conditions; but, if the pump is self-priming, a dry tank shouldn't
cause a problem for the top pump.
Just a thought.
Ed
On Oct 4, 4:04=A0am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> [1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
> steadily aimed at the sun.....
....other than a human with a wrench and a few instructions!
JP
**************
Kiss. : o
PS - I made some clamping cauls!!!! They're excellent!
On Oct 5, 3:22=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> basilisk wrote:
> > Have you seen the dual diaphram utility pumps that run on compressed
> > air, they have low air usage are fairly simple mechanically, might be
> > ideal for the in the well pump.http://www.yamadapump.comsomething
> > along this line could probably be made from pvc.
>
> Those are pretty neat, and there's a strong resemblance between the
> fluidyne and a _half_ of one of those pumps. Where Yamadas operate on a
> supply of compressed air, the fluidyne operates on the pressure of
> expansion and contraction of a fixed volume air and substitutes a fluid
> piston for the diaphragm piston.
>
> >> [3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check
> >> valve. A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs
> >> to open easily (as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring
> >> force or weight of the moving part) and seal completely on closure.
> >> The PVC check valves that I was able to buy locally are expensive
> >> ($22/ea) and don't seal well at all.
>
> > I use a lot of check valves for all sorts of things at work and home,
> > there are none available for any price that are long lasting and
> > that actually seal. You can have one but not both. I remember the old
> > hand well pumps had leather flap checks, very easy open, and perfect
> > seal, best of all the repair was dirt cheap and quick.
>
> I remember watching an uncle replacing a kitchen sink pump leather with
> a new deerhide leather. IIRC he spent more time deciding from where on
> the hide the new leather would be cut than on the actual repair. :)
>
> I suspect there will be more than a few of these pumps with leather
> flappers.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
If for some reason a cooked piece of meat turned out particularly
tough, we would refer to it as 'pompleer'.
On Oct 5, 11:36=A0am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> WayneJ wrote:
> > Is there a better place to continue this discussion? Perhaps it is
> > getting a bit OT for rec.woodworking.
>
> You're right, there is - this is completely topical in
> news:alt.solar.thermal - and my e-mail address is publicly available
> (and all mail with "Solar" in the subject goes to the front of the queue)=
.
You are welcome to keep it going here guys. It's a hell lot better and
more interesting than all the political scientology (tmTW).
Luigi
On Oct 3, 8:21=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
> that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
> efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
> devices, this might be interesting...
>
> A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
> to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
> underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
> quick satellite view of the area at
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D-32.916485,-68.867798&spn=3D1.789146,2.2=
...
>
> and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/5mPump.html
>
> Wish us luck!
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Your cause is noble, you will succeed.
"Luigi Zanasi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Oct 5, 11:36 am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> WayneJ wrote:
> > Is there a better place to continue this discussion? Perhaps it is
> > getting a bit OT for rec.woodworking.
>
> You're right, there is - this is completely topical in
> news:alt.solar.thermal - and my e-mail address is publicly available
> (and all mail with "Solar" in the subject goes to the front of the queue).
You are welcome to keep it going here guys. It's a hell lot better and
more interesting than all the political scientology (tmTW).
Luigi
I'll second that : )
Morris Dovey wrote:
> The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
> that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
> efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
> devices, this might be interesting...
>
> A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
> to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
> underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
> quick satellite view of the area at
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.916485,-68.867798&spn=1.789146,2.27417&z=10
>
>
> and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/5mPump.html
>
> Wish us luck!
>
Go, Morris.
If you can keep the guvmint and politicos out of it (as the Crazy Horse
Memorial folks claim they have), things will probably work out.
You are a gift!
- Doug
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
> that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following
> my efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
> devices, this might be interesting...
>
> A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has
> decided to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but
> there's underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can
> get a quick satellite view of the area at
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.916485,-68.867798&spn=1.789146,2.274
> 17&z=10
>
> and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/5mPump.html
>
> Wish us luck!
>
Go for it Morris, and good luck to the Argentinos (spelling?)!!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> You are covered.
>
> Thanks! Encouragement can be a powerful force, and I'll pass it along.
> I've been tickled with where and by whom the work is being done. Team
> Pakistan was a small group of engineering students who sometimes
> worked to the sound of nearby gunfire, Team Sudan is headed by a Brit
> physicist who, with his MD wife, decided that they could make [and, in
> fact, are making] the world a better place by taking what they knew
> and sharing it with the folks of the Sudan. I got an e-mail Friday
> from Park Falls, Kentucky - an eleventh grader who has her first
> fluidyne running and now wants to pursue optimization - who (if
> parents and teachers approve) will be the start of Team USA.
>
> I'm tickled because, although some serious players (NASA, CERN,
> Harvard, Sandia, Oak Ridge, Oxford, Cambridge,...) have been watching
> the web site, they've not been contributors. The progress has /all/
> come from places and people who couldn't possibly have been
> predicted...
>
> ...and I'm loving every bit of it. :)
And so am I, Morris!
I am also impressed by the way the Heifer organisation
(heifer.org)provides aid to developing countries. Have you contacted
them by any chance? --
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Heh - actually I've been more what Robatoy (in one of his more polished
> moments) might call a paddlemaster - almost an /agent/ /provocateur/. :)
An agent provocateur isn't bad. As long as he gets people provoked to do
the /right/ thing. And you seem to be such a person!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:76e18788-c30a-4feb-a848-
[email protected]:
> If for some reason a cooked piece of meat turned out particularly
> tough, we would refer to it as 'pompleer'.
>
pompleer = pump leather
Crazy Dutchman, of course ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On Oct 4, 3:04=A0am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> [1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
> steadily aimed at the sun.
DAGS - pneumatic sun tracker. First hit:
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Thermal_20Pneumatic_20Tracking_20for_20Solar=
_20Energy
you get the idea...
ditions.
>
> [2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
> or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. snip... My best =
guess was to use two pumps - one
> at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
> to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
> better way, but I don't know what it might be.
>
That's about the only way you can do it with a pump. You have to push
the water up from the bottom, you can't suck it up. The other kind of
positive displacement "pump" would be an Archimedes' Screw.
> [3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check valve.
> A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required.
I have an idea for a valve. It approximates an artificial heart
valve.
>
> [4] /Major/ good karma would accrue to anyone who could provide
> development teams with pressure, temperature, and fluid piston
> displacement information for both hot and cold heads at a one kHz or so
> sampling rate for display on a PC or laptop with via, say, a USB2
> interface.
I'd use a data acquisition module from Dataq: http://www.dataq.com/products=
/startkit/di148.htm
The exact design of the sensor depends upon exactly what you're trying
to measure and how accurately.
> [5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
> and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
> effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
> significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.
>
Grainger sells tubing insulation made from closed-cell foam, something
like http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3F404 with the biggest OD
you can fit, and the appropriate ID.
> [6] There'll also be a "forever" search for better/less expensive
> materials throughout. I've thought about casting ceramic/concrete pump
> bodies and daydreamed about molded one-piece high-temperature plastic
> pump bodies, but don't know enough materials to even be dangerous. I
> found out the hard way that PVC doesn't much like to be heated above the
> boiling temperature of water (it wasn't very pretty when I tried that).
>
With the proper design, carbon fiber components can be easily built,
can withstand relatively high heat, and are strong/light weight. I've
got a friend that is a guru in this area. He calls his garage the
"Central Okla. Military Industrial Complex." Would be glad to put you
in touch with him.
> And the last item for tonight (I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard) i=
s:
>
> [7] A battery/solar powered electronic device (preferably hand-held)
> that tells if and how far down there's enough water to justify a well
> and pump. It'd also be a big help to know if there are any solid
> obstacles (like boulders) between the device and the water.
>
Dowsing rods. Other than that, you either need to go high tech/
expensive.
Would be glad to help more with these ideas. Contact me off-list if
you're interested.
Dan Major
Bespoke Consulting and Design LLC
[email protected]
http://sites.google.com/site/bespokeengr/home
Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Wish us luck!
>
> Wishing you a lot more than luck, Morris.
Thanks! The high level Google satellite view doesn't show conditions
very well (much too green) - you can get a better idea of what they're
dealing with by zooming down anywhere.
When the folks in Mendoza told me it was a big wine-producing area, I
took one look and quipped back that it looked about perfect for growing
raisins. :)
More than luck? Well, _water_ would be good. Methinks they need a few
apple and peach orchards; and if they have wine and apples, then they'll
need alfalfa to support cheese production...
...and, of course, they'll need to grow trees for the woodworkers. ;->
Plus - if we can get this thing working, there's a team already forming
in Khartoum who'll be able to put it to work immediately to expand the
arable area on either side of the Nile.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Robatoy wrote:
> Your cause is noble, you will succeed.
Heh - not sure about noble causes, but it's fun! If it succeeds, it'll
be because the kids down there are all more qualified to bring this off
than I. It's always somehow reassuring for me to (re)discover that there
are smart people everywhere. :)
A 5m (about 16-1/2 feet) deep well should be a slam-dunk - but I'm
hoping that everyone involved learns enough that we can put our heads
together to design a 10m solution. /That/ probably won't be so easy, but
it's an important next step...
By the end of this year it looks like there'll be six teams spread over
five continents - a major improvement over one old duffer tinkering by
himself in a drafty aircraft hangar in the middle of nowhere.
Many hands make light work.
[ No apologies for the pun :-D ]
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Morris Dovey wrote:
> The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
> that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
> efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
> devices, this might be interesting...
>
> A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
> to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
> underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
> quick satellite view of the area at
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.916485,-68.867798&spn=1.789146,2.27417&z=10
>
>
> and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/5mPump.html
>
> Wish us luck!
>
You could do miracles with that in Africa.
Best of luck and kudos in the venture.
I hope you make a ton of money and help a lot of people.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Han wrote:
> Go for it Morris, and good luck to the Argentinos (spelling?)!!
Thanks! I'll guess that your spelling is correct. Beside butchering
English, I can make myself misunderstood equally badly in French and
Portuguese - mas no hablo. Fortunately, the Argentine engineering
students seem to consider learning English an essential part of their
technical education, and that's made it easy for me.
( Hmm - I have a nephew who works at Rosetta Stone, I wonder if he can
get me a good deal on a Spanish course... )
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> You are covered.
Thanks! Encouragement can be a powerful force, and I'll pass it along.
I've been tickled with where and by whom the work is being done. Team
Pakistan was a small group of engineering students who sometimes worked
to the sound of nearby gunfire, Team Sudan is headed by a Brit physicist
who, with his MD wife, decided that they could make [and, in fact, are
making] the world a better place by taking what they knew and sharing it
with the folks of the Sudan. I got an e-mail Friday from Park Falls,
Kentucky - an eleventh grader who has her first fluidyne running and now
wants to pursue optimization - who (if parents and teachers approve)
will be the start of Team USA.
I'm tickled because, although some serious players (NASA, CERN, Harvard,
Sandia, Oak Ridge, Oxford, Cambridge,...) have been watching the web
site, they've not been contributors. The progress has /all/ come from
places and people who couldn't possibly have been predicted...
...and I'm loving every bit of it. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
-MIKE- wrote:
> You could do miracles with that in Africa.
Ooooh - I hope so! According to the UN, there are about a billion (a
thousand million) people with a /severe/ water supply problem. A lot
(but nowhere near all) of them are in Africa.
> Best of luck and kudos in the venture.
Thanks. I'll pass those along to the folks who're doing the real work.
> I hope you make a ton of money and help a lot of people.
Alas! There's no profit in this project. All involved are unpaid
volunteers who've agreed to put everything learned about making these
things into the public domain. The goal is to come up with a design that
can be produced inexpensively everywhere by anyone with only simple tools.
There's no shortage of challenges, but as more people have become
involved, the pace of development has picked up considerably.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> Go, Morris.
:)
> If you can keep the guvmint and politicos out of it (as the Crazy Horse
> Memorial folks claim they have), things will probably work out.
I think the politicos will continue to watchfully ignore all of this,
since it isn't likely to produce campaign contributions - but may
provide something for which they can claim credit when the work is done. :)
> You are a gift!
Heh - actually I've been more what Robatoy (in one of his more polished
moments) might call a paddlemaster - almost an /agent/ /provocateur/. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Morris Dovey wrote:
>> I hope you make a ton of money and help a lot of people.
>
> Alas! There's no profit in this project. All involved are unpaid
> volunteers who've agreed to put everything learned about making these
> things into the public domain. The goal is to come up with a design that
> can be produced inexpensively everywhere by anyone with only simple tools.
>
> There's no shortage of challenges, but as more people have become
> involved, the pace of development has picked up considerably.
>
That's wonderful.
I'm involved with a couple organizations that provide aid and training
and other things to Africa.
One is called the "Mocha Club," because they focus on how much only $7
(two mochas) a month can do for families and communities.
For example...
* SUSTAIN life for 1 person living with AIDS.
* PROVIDE clean water to 7 Africans for 1 year.
* SAVE 1 person's life from malaria.
Amazing.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Plus - if we can get this thing working, there's a team already forming
>> in Khartoum who'll be able to put it to work immediately to expand the
>> arable area on either side of the Nile.
>
> That's freakin' awesome.
>
> How can we contribute to the effort?
Wow, you caught me flat-footed on that one - but I can think of a number
of needs:
[1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
steadily aimed at the sun. A polar mount like that used for satellite
dishes (rotate trough on long axis to track the sun during the day, and
elevation +/-23.5° seasonal adjustment) might be ideal. I've been trying
to figure out a hydraulic solution, but I'm sure there's more than one
way to skin this cat. Whatever the solution is, it'll need to keep the
trough steady in even gusty conditions.
[2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. I identified
the problem, stuck a post-it on the wall, and moved on. If there's a
pump guru somewhere who can figure out how to use the fluidyne's
alternating pressures to do that job, there's a real opportunity to be a
hero by showing how to do it. My best guess was to use two pumps - one
at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
better way, but I don't know what it might be.
[3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check valve.
A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs to open
easily (as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring force or
weight of the moving part) and seal completely on closure. The PVC check
valves that I was able to buy locally are expensive ($22/ea) and don't
seal well at all.
[4] /Major/ good karma would accrue to anyone who could provide
development teams with pressure, temperature, and fluid piston
displacement information for both hot and cold heads at a one kHz or so
sampling rate for display on a PC or laptop with via, say, a USB2
interface. One of the biggest headaches is that we can't see what's
going on inside the engine. There's a commercial opportunity here, too -
because once the developers are done, a tool like this would be needed
for maintainers to trouble-shoot failing pumps.
[5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.
[6] There'll also be a "forever" search for better/less expensive
materials throughout. I've thought about casting ceramic/concrete pump
bodies and daydreamed about molded one-piece high-temperature plastic
pump bodies, but don't know enough materials to even be dangerous. I
found out the hard way that PVC doesn't much like to be heated above the
boiling temperature of water (it wasn't very pretty when I tried that).
And the last item for tonight (I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard) is:
[7] A battery/solar powered electronic device (preferably hand-held)
that tells if and how far down there's enough water to justify a well
and pump. It'd also be a big help to know if there are any solid
obstacles (like boulders) between the device and the water.
Probably I should put this list on a project web page. Tomorrow.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Han wrote:
> I am also impressed by the way the Heifer organisation
> (heifer.org)provides aid to developing countries. Have you contacted
> them by any chance? --
I haven't. I suspect that future NGO involvement might be appropriate,
but none of what's happening now with this stuff involves any kind of
management or accounting structure, and the only accountability any of
the participants has is that of being true to the laws of physics and to
their own conscience.
All aid-providing organizations /must/ ensure that assets are used
responsibly, which imposes exactly those things which would be most
counter-productive at this stage. These folks do /not/ need
administrivial distraction.
What's needed right now is creative problem-solving of the /very/
highest order, and I don't think that can be bought for money.
Fortunately, while it can't be bought, it's already being given.
Later, when (as soon as) there's a version 1.01 of a proven well pump
with a known cost, /then/ may be the right time for NGO involvement.
So what /would/ help? I think the folks who're doing the work would
benefit most from exactly what I've gotten here - a healthy dosage of
affirmation and approval from those who happen to notice what they're doing.
That probably sounds pretty lame. It isn't.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Jay Pique wrote:
> On Oct 4, 4:04 am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
>> steadily aimed at the sun.....
>
> .....other than a human with a wrench and a few instructions!
> Kiss. : o
I like simple, too. Ok, you get the first 10-year stint, and after five
years of non-slacking tracking, you'll receive a new pair of welding
goggles. :-T
I think the economics (everywhere) are in favor of a more energy
efficient solution - and I think we'd all prefer to see that kid in school.
> PS - I made some clamping cauls!!!! They're excellent!
Good news, indeed.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
StL.Ed wrote:
> On Oct 4, 3:04 am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> <snip>
>> [2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
>> or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. I identified
>> the problem, stuck a post-it on the wall, and moved on. If there's a
>> pump guru somewhere who can figure out how to use the fluidyne's
>> alternating pressures to do that job, there's a real opportunity to be a
>> hero by showing how to do it. My best guess was to use two pumps - one
>> at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
>> to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
>> better way, but I don't know what it might be.
>>
> <snip/> --
> When you said earlier that the next step was a "10m solution" , I
> thought about two pumps as well, but with a tank buried half way,
> stepping the water up. Might need to consider overflow or dry tank
> conditions; but, if the pump is self-priming, a dry tank shouldn't
> cause a problem for the top pump.
> Just a thought.
I just copied your post into my "Things to Consider" directory, and will
encourage you to keep that challenge on your back burner. We still have
a lot to learn about is and isn't reasonable, and I suspect that what we
learn with shallow wells may very well influence our thinking for deeper
wells.
Thanks!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
WayneJ wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:04:41 -0700, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
>> and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
>> effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head
>> without significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.
>
> You probably are already doing this, but one obvious way to cool the
> cold side is with the water being pumped out of the ground, which is
> normally significantly colder than ambient air temps, at least during
> summer.
The "clean" way to do that appears be to be adding a water jacket to the
cold head, and route the well water through that jacket.
The problem is that when the well pipe drains (or starts dry), that
jacket will stay dry until the pump has cycled enough times to bring
water up to fill it. Then the air-filled jacket will allow heat to build
up in the cold head, and oscillation will halt because of an the
resulting insufficient heat differential.
The "dirty" method is to simply splash the discharge water over the cold
head, which will solve the cooling problem but opens the door to a host
of other problems - including contamination of the well.
At present both hot and cold heads are 24" sections of the tubing used
for semi truck exhaust stacks, with a flue cap (thimble?) brazed to one
end. That's the Iowa version. The Pakistani version used different
materials, and others' will be adapted to suit what's available locally,
which makes standardization an interesting issue. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave Balderstone wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
Have you seen the dual diaphram utility pumps that run on compressed air,
they have low air usage are fairly simple mechanically, might be ideal for
the
in the well pump.
http://www.yamadapump.com
something along this line could probably be made from pvc.
>
> [3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check valve. A
> DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs to open easily
> (as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring force or weight of
> the moving part) and seal completely on closure. The PVC check valves that
> I was able to buy locally are expensive ($22/ea) and don't seal well at
> all.
I use a lot of check valves for all sorts of things at work and home,
there are none available for any price that are long lasting and that
actually seal.
You can have one but not both. I remember the old hand well pumps had
leather flap
checks, very easy open, and perfect seal, best of all the repair was dirt
cheap
and quick.
>
> [4] /Major/ good karma would accrue to anyone who could provide
> development teams with pressure, temperature, and fluid piston
> displacement information for both hot and cold heads at a one kHz or so
> sampling rate for display on a PC or laptop with via, say, a USB2
> interface. One of the biggest headaches is that we can't see what's going
> on inside the engine. There's a commercial opportunity here, too - because
> once the developers are done, a tool like this would be needed for
> maintainers to trouble-shoot failing pumps.
>
> [5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot and
> cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
> effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
> significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.
>
> [6] There'll also be a "forever" search for better/less expensive
> materials throughout. I've thought about casting ceramic/concrete pump
> bodies and daydreamed about molded one-piece high-temperature plastic pump
> bodies, but don't know enough materials to even be dangerous. I found out
> the hard way that PVC doesn't much like to be heated above the boiling
> temperature of water (it wasn't very pretty when I tried that).
>
> And the last item for tonight (I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard)
> is:
>
> [7] A battery/solar powered electronic device (preferably hand-held) that
> tells if and how far down there's enough water to justify a well and pump.
> It'd also be a big help to know if there are any solid obstacles (like
> boulders) between the device and the water.
Dousing rods?
>
basilisk
WayneJ wrote:
> It should be possible to arrange the pipe connections to the jacket such
> that the jacket does not empty when the well pipe drains. If the ASCII
> drawing stays intact, this would be an example. The drawing is a section
> through the jacket and the cold head. I realize the drawing of the cold
> head is probably incorrect, but the concept should be adaptable.
>
> ___| |___
> _______| | | |_______
> IN \ | | OUT
> _______ \ | | _______
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> |___| |___|
> | |
>
> The water in and out pipes are at the same level. A deflector at the
> opening of the in pipe causes circulation in the jacket while water
> flows. When the pump stops and the well pipe drains back air enters at
> the out pipe, but only the water above the bottom of the in pipe will
> drain out of the jacket. At start up, the substantial amount of water in
> the jacket will sink enough heat to allow the pump to start the water
> flowing. The size of the jacket may need to be adjusted to ensure
> reliable start up but it shouldn't need to be very large. The jacket
> would have to be primed for a dry start and drained if freezing
> conditions occur.
You can safely bet that this (or something very like) /will/ be tested
because the possible performance improvement is so attractive. :)
> Is standardization needed or desirable? Use of local resources would
> seem to be a good thing.
It's an interesting aspect to consider, and there's a powerful urge on
the part of "geeky" types (like me) to maximize efficiency, and it's not
always so easy to remember that the primary objective is to move water,
not build a technical marvel. :-/
When I got really tough with myself, I decided that it might be wiser
just to get a minimal pump working and leave refinement for later. I'm
absolutely certain that, once it's working, more people will become
involved and there will be no shortage of improvements. With luck, at
least a few of those improvements will provide breakthrough (technical
quantum leap) enhancement.
> Is there a better place to continue this discussion? Perhaps it is
> getting a bit OT for rec.woodworking.
You're right, there is - this is completely topical in
news:alt.solar.thermal - and my e-mail address is publicly available
(and all mail with "Solar" in the subject goes to the front of the queue).
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
basilisk wrote:
> Have you seen the dual diaphram utility pumps that run on compressed
> air, they have low air usage are fairly simple mechanically, might be
> ideal for the in the well pump. http://www.yamadapump.com something
> along this line could probably be made from pvc.
Those are pretty neat, and there's a strong resemblance between the
fluidyne and a _half_ of one of those pumps. Where Yamadas operate on a
supply of compressed air, the fluidyne operates on the pressure of
expansion and contraction of a fixed volume air and substitutes a fluid
piston for the diaphragm piston.
>> [3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check
>> valve. A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs
>> to open easily (as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring
>> force or weight of the moving part) and seal completely on closure.
>> The PVC check valves that I was able to buy locally are expensive
>> ($22/ea) and don't seal well at all.
>
> I use a lot of check valves for all sorts of things at work and home,
> there are none available for any price that are long lasting and
> that actually seal. You can have one but not both. I remember the old
> hand well pumps had leather flap checks, very easy open, and perfect
> seal, best of all the repair was dirt cheap and quick.
I remember watching an uncle replacing a kitchen sink pump leather with
a new deerhide leather. IIRC he spent more time deciding from where on
the hide the new leather would be cut than on the actual repair. :)
I suspect there will be more than a few of these pumps with leather
flappers.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Luigi Zanasi wrote:
> You are welcome to keep it going here guys. It's a hell lot better and
> more interesting than all the political scientology (tmTW).
I only posted here because I knew there were a few folks who've had in
interest in some of the solar stuff (and because I like to share good
news with friends).
I'm happy to answer questions when and as best I can - but the best
place for ongoing discussions of this stuff is next door in
alt.solar.thermal
This has been fun for me because the other newsgroups seem to fill up
with people who like to intellectualize a thing to death, and the wreck
has an abundance of people who like to roll up their sleeves and /make/
things.
Fear not - I'll bring this up again when there's more news to share... :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
WayneJ wrote:
> Well while it's still here, I have a couple of questions. Have you
> successfully pumped water from a significant depth using the collector
> you describe? What was the depth and what flow of water did you achieve?
> Did you have good conditions (clear sky, bright sun) for the test?
No (haven't tried). N/A. N/A. If I had done the test, I would have done
it on a clear day with bright sun.
I've only been working on engines, and although I recently picked up a
pair of PVC check valves, they're still sitting on the bench. Strange as
it may seem, I'll probably be the last of the group to build a pump -
and may never, since my part of the job is rapidly turning into that of
advisor, coach, and cheering section. The work that I had been doing is
being spread out enough ways that shortly I may be able to retire from
the field - no longer being needed is one of my criteria for success. :)
The lads in Pakistan did pump some water, but not from any depth (and
they seemed to have some problems with both their pump connection
plumbing and with their too small bore spring-loaded check valves). I
haven't heard from them since just before graduation time, so don't know
if they're still working on their pump (I'm guessing maybe not at present).
I've shifted my development efforts to an all-metal design that uses the
trough collection pipe itself as the hot head - so we'll all have to
wait for a report from Argentina to know how well this pump performs.
To my knowledge, this pump isn't a re-hash of anything that's been done
before. My web page with the pump design was posted only a day after I
e-mailed the original drawing to Argentina, and I posted here while that
web page was still in preliminary form. What you're seeing is a snapshot
of in-progress R&D, and "Team Argentina" is, indeed, pushing the leading
edge.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
How long will it operate? How long before the aquifer drops below the
level it can pump?
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
This is way cool. I love Stirling engines.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
Edward A. Falk wrote:
> How long will it operate? How long before the aquifer drops below the
> level it can pump?
It'll pump until the sun goes down. The answer to the second question
probably depends on the well, rather than the pump - if there's a
sufficient heat differential, the pump will continue to operate without
water to pump (probably making disgusting slurping noises).
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>[1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
>steadily aimed at the sun. A polar mount like that used for satellite
>dishes (rotate trough on long axis to track the sun during the day, and
>elevation +/-23.5° seasonal adjustment) might be ideal. I've been trying
>to figure out a hydraulic solution, but I'm sure there's more than one
>way to skin this cat. Whatever the solution is, it'll need to keep the
>trough steady in even gusty conditions.
A clockwork mechanism pops into my head.
Mutter, mutter. Moving that reflector and keeping it steady in winds would need
a fairly robust mechanism. Probably weight driven -- simpler than springs and
probably cheaper, given that you need quite a bit of energy to drive the
mechanism.
Some kind of funky cam to track the sun and return during the night. You need
an escapement. It doesn't have to be real accurate. A pendulum is easy, but a
balance wheel might be more reliable. Naw. Use a pendulum and enclose it in a
box with the weights and mechanism. A couple of dozen parts. Most could be
stamped out of aluminum or hand made with a file and a few jigs. Mutter, mutter.
These solar cookers were all over Tibet, even places that had other sources of
power: http://douglasjohnson.org/pictures/Solar%20Cooker.jpg
-- Doug
On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:04:41 -0700, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Balderstone wrote:
----snip-----
>
> [5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
> and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
> effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
> significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.
>
You probably are already doing this, but one obvious way to cool the cold
side is with the water being pumped out of the ground, which is normally
significantly colder than ambient air temps, at least during summer.
WayneJ
On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:54:32 -0700, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> WayneJ wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:04:41 -0700, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> [5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
>>> and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
>>> effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head
>>> without significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.
>> You probably are already doing this, but one obvious way to cool the
>> cold side is with the water being pumped out of the ground, which is
>> normally significantly colder than ambient air temps, at least during
>> summer.
>
> The "clean" way to do that appears be to be adding a water jacket to the
> cold head, and route the well water through that jacket.
>
> The problem is that when the well pipe drains (or starts dry), that
> jacket will stay dry until the pump has cycled enough times to bring
> water up to fill it. Then the air-filled jacket will allow heat to build
> up in the cold head, and oscillation will halt because of an the
> resulting insufficient heat differential.
It should be possible to arrange the pipe connections to the jacket such
that the jacket does not empty when the well pipe drains. If the ASCII
drawing stays intact, this would be an example. The drawing is a section
through the jacket and the cold head. I realize the drawing of the cold
head is probably incorrect, but the concept should be adaptable.
___| |___
_______| | | |_______
IN \ | | OUT
_______ \ | | _______
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|___| |___|
| |
The water in and out pipes are at the same level. A deflector at the
opening of the in pipe causes circulation in the jacket while water flows.
When the pump stops and the well pipe drains back air enters at the out
pipe, but only the water above the bottom of the in pipe will drain out of
the jacket. At start up, the substantial amount of water in the jacket
will sink enough heat to allow the pump to start the water flowing. The
size of the jacket may need to be adjusted to ensure reliable start up but
it shouldn't need to be very large. The jacket would have to be primed for
a dry start and drained if freezing conditions occur.
> The "dirty" method is to simply splash the discharge water over the cold
> head, which will solve the cooling problem but opens the door to a host
> of other problems - including contamination of the well.
>
Agreed, this is probably not a good idea.
> At present both hot and cold heads are 24" sections of the tubing used
> for semi truck exhaust stacks, with a flue cap (thimble?) brazed to one
> end. That's the Iowa version. The Pakistani version used different
> materials, and others' will be adapted to suit what's available locally,
> which makes standardization an interesting issue. :)
>
Is standardization needed or desirable? Use of local resources would seem
to be a good thing.
Is there a better place to continue this discussion? Perhaps it is getting
a bit OT for rec.woodworking.
WayneJ
On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:47:48 -0700, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm happy to answer questions when and as best I can - but the best
> place for ongoing discussions of this stuff is next door in
> alt.solar.thermal
>
> This has been fun for me because the other newsgroups seem to fill up
> with people who like to intellectualize a thing to death, and the wreck
> has an abundance of people who like to roll up their sleeves and /make/
> things.
>
> Fear not - I'll bring this up again when there's more news to share... :)
Well while it's still here, I have a couple of questions. Have you
successfully pumped water from a significant depth using the collector you
describe? What was the depth and what flow of water did you achieve? Did
you have good conditions (clear sky, bright sun) for the test?
Thanks,
WayneJ