O/T: Abby Sunderland Rescued!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 12, 1:20 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
>> Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
>> one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
>> maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.
>
>Using the same boating comparison logic instead of an actual dollar,
>it was not as expensive as an aircraft carrier (a very expensive
>boat), or and nuclear submarine, or even just the super sized personal
>yachts such as the Dubai.
>
>The used Open 40's (not to be confused with the Class 40's) of that
>vintage seem to be in the area of $425,000 to $450,000. The Anasazi
>Girl seems to be almost as fully equipped as Abby's but seem to be
>missing the pricey (OK, to me) auto pilot features, etc. There are
>two Open 40's for sale here:
>
>http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/Open40AnasaziGirl
>
>And another questions comes to mind; of the boat is not wrecked, why
>would they even consider sinking it?
>
>Link to the LA Times article:
>
>http://preview.tinyurl.com/39olxkn
>
>Apparently the boat (even at it's value of +/- $425,000 may not be
>worth saving, and might be left for salvage. If it isn't worth towing
>back, (think of this as your car), wouldn't you call it a wreck?
>Semantics may vary, but to me, if it suffered physical damage to the
>point of it being unable to perform it's intended task, whether it is
>a car, boat, or train, I would say it was wrecked.
>

So, a car with a flat tire is a wreck to you?

The reason it cannot be salvaged is a matter of where it is located
and what would be involved in trying to tow it to civilization. If it
was 100 miles off shore, someone would salvage it.

On Jun 12, 9:32=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Lucky for her and her parents.

Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
they found that kid.

In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
attention.

Her parents will get the same. Now there will be a "heroic" twist to
the story, which will no doubt be much more bankable than if she made
it. I can already see Oprah asking the parents "what they were
thinking" and listening to them reason out they weren't the type of
parents to be dreams stealers.

I can imagine the talk show hosts asking her if she was ever scared,
while displaying her book on the desk.

They better get cracking, though. There is another young girl ( is
there ANYTHING fully empowered children can't do these days? ) that
wanted to do the same trip at 13. The Dutch courts where she lives
blocked her try. (Dream stealing bastards... she even told them it
was her lifelong dream... )

She has since run away from home with her boat to try, but without the
millions of dollars of gear and logistic provided to Abby, didn't get
too far.

She has proudly announced that it is a matter of time, and once she
gets it back together, she will board "The Guppy" and make another
attempt. No one will steal the dreams of that now 14 year old girl.

Sadly for Abby, if she makes it the Dutch girl will eclipse ALL the
attention Abby will enjoy. After Abby blowing her horn about staring
down her fears, waiting heroically to be rescued, and mastering her
emotions while waiting for rescue, in the end she has just wrecked a
very expensive boat.

Almost making achieving that goal is the same as almost winning the
Super Bowl, almost winning the World Series, almost winning the
Stanley Cup. Soon, no one will remember her name.

Although.... there is an alternative to the attention they crave.
Surely I can't be the only one to remember the parent/child combo that
tried to fly across the USA in a plane. It was always that child's
dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
planet.

To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
wonderful things.

Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
flight instructor. BUT - now they indeed have a valid, permanent
place in the record books.

They even created the impetus in Congress to pass a law that will keep
others from challenging their record, as it makes it illegal in the
USA to have children that young fly. How many people can inspire
actual binding laws? So their efforts will always be a part of
history.

Mission accomplished.

Ted Koppel had this to say: (from Time magazine)

>>To its credit, ABC confronted the issue of whether television was complic=
it in the tragedy. On Nightline, Ted Koppel spoke for the network when he s=
aid, "We need to begin by acknowledging our own contribution...We feed one =
another: those of you looking for publicity and those of us looking for sto=
ries." Then he posed the question of "whether we in the media...by our rave=
nous attention contribute to this phenomenon," and answered it himself: "We=
did." <<

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,984431-5,00.htm=
l#ixzz0qfBGuHgW

Fear not. In this empowering, vapid, society of attention seekers,
there will be others to pick up the slack Abby left on her trip.
Since there is no glory in simply sailing around the world (defeating
the well hashed quote "I sail for the love of sailing") I doubt she
will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.

Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
trying another sailing record?

Robert

<[email protected]> wrote

> Ted Koppel had this to say: (from Time magazine)

> I doubt she
> will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
> interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
> enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.

Yes, that says a lot.

<[email protected]> wrote:

> Using the same boating comparison logic instead of an actual dollar,
> it was not as expensive as an aircraft carrier (a very expensive
> boat), or and nuclear submarine, or even just the super sized
> personal
> yachts such as the Dubai.
---------------------------------------------
What's left floating around as a hazard to navigation probably cost
just short of $1 Meg to put in the water and is now worth maybe $100K
if it was in the right location, which it isn't.

The sails are shot, easily $150K, the carbon fiber mast is gone, along
with the rigging, easily another $100K.

The electronics will be shot, easily $250K.

The list goes on, but you get the idea.

Compared to what it costs to put an ocean racer or an Americas Cup
boat in the water, the cost of Wild Eyes is chump change by
comparison; however, if you noticed, there is a long list of sponsors
to help off set the costs.

Last I checked, a $Meg still isn't hanging on trees for the taking.

Lew

"J. Clarke" wrote:

> There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
> someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
> mistaken.
-------------------------------------
She has been a live aboard cruiser.

My money says she can strip and rebuild an outboard while seated in
the dinghy it drives.

Lew

Lobby Dosser wrote:

> I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in
> something like seven years with Cook.
-----------------------------------
Are you suggesting that her sextant skills may be a little rusty or
perhaps she bypassed the need to learn morse code?

Lew

Lobby Dosser wrote:

> Is their a standard test for solo circum-navigation?
------------------------------
You tell me.
----------------------------------
> Didn't she put in to SA to get the $150K nav system repaired?
-----------------------------------------
Don't think so.

Pulled into Cabo for electrical system Mods such as higher out put
alternator at low RPM and added battery bank capacity, none of which
applied to navigation or communication electronics.

There were also some autopilot issues.

Forced to stop in Capetown for autopilot repairs, again nothing
related to either communication or navigation issues.

Her blog would have the details.

Lew

"J. Clarke" wrote:
> If she hadn't made such poor decisions involving equipment I would
> agree with you.
-----------------------------------------
It is obvious that the "Brain Trust" for this attempt had a strong
influence
from the "Go Fast", hitech racing crowd.

(Carbon spar, water ballast, etc)

It is also obvious they really didn't understand 12VDCV power systems
on an extended voyage sail boat.

IMHO, the decision to use an electronic/electro/hydraulic auto pilot
rather
than a servo wind vane doomed this project before it ever left the
dock.

To keep weight to a minimum, the house bank battery was much to small
for the task.

As a result, the recharge rate was less than optimum.

The alternator chosen required a 2 gang set of matched belts to drive
it; however,
the 18 HP, Yanmar diesel is fitted with only a single groove sheave.

As a result, the alternator "Ate" belts.

(This maybe what Abby's "Engine Trouble" was all about since the
18 HP Yanmar is usually fairly reliable.)

The basic design parameter of a sailboat electrical system is that the
house bank must carry the load while cycling between 60% and 90%
of capacity.

Some simple rules of wet cell batteries.

For every 100AH consumed, you must replace with 125AH

The sustained average recharge rate of a battery is about 15%.

If you want to recharge at a 60A rate you need 400AH of batteries.

They stopped in Cabo and added some house battery capacity but
didn't have a 2 gang sheave machined and installed to solve the
belt drive problem.

Machinery and electronics are great things, but on a small sailboat
trying to
do a non stop around the world passage, electrical and machine devices
will
bite you in the ass.

At least that was my experience sailing a 30ft boat on the Great
Lakes.

Had many machinery malfunctions but never had a piece of line (rope)
fail.

Sailing and simplicity go together.

Machinery on a sail boat is a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO.

Lew

"J. Clarke" wrote:

> One does wish that L. Francis Herreshoff was alive to comment on the
> current state of the art.
---------------------------------
And maybe even Josh.

Any body got a box of carpet tacks?

Lew

[email protected] wrote:

> The safest
> thing for her to do with what was in the water would be to cut it
> free
> so it would either sink or drift away - and not poke holes in her
> boat.
-------------------------------------
Absolutely.

Assuming she could have salvaged the boom, she could have used it to
jury rig a mast using lines and winches on board.

With the boom rigged as a mast, hopefully the would have been able to
rig a tri-sail as a jib.

Might have been able to maintain 1-3 knots forward motion.

By the time all this was accomplished, SAR would and did respond.
-----------------------------------------
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Would she cut it
away, or would she use the "aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
the
boat" to rehab/rework the boat into something she could sail, steer
and navigate.
---------------------------------------
See above.

----------------------------------------
> Did she have the necessary tools to do so?

Cable cutters? I hope so.

Simple hydraulic cutters would do the job.

ENERPAC comes to mind.

Small, light weight, actuated with minimum sourse.

You simply cut away the rigging at the chainplates.

The name of the game it to stay ON the boat.
------------------------------------------------

> But then I posed JC's opine about righting a boat, chopping through
debris, rigging a mast from broken material and then sailing away to a
safe port.

I though he was going to spill his beer he was laughing so hard.
----------------------------------------
That makes two of us. See above.
------------------------------------------
> She will swim around in the rigging, sails, fittings and broken mast
to clear the wreckage.
----------------------------------
You gotta be kidding, she is young, not stupid.
-----------------------------------------

"Have you ever even tried to right a tipped boat of any size, Robert?"
-----------------------------------------------
No need, hull was already in normal sailing position; however,
only had a stump of a mast remaining.
---------------------------------------------
>He promised me that he would pay good money to see a teenage girl
right a 40' boat with a 60' sail on or off it, then reattach a mast of
sorts and sail away.
----------------------------------
Sci-Fi at it's best.
-----------------------------------
I was thinking.... now THAT would be your book, movie and speaking
engagements...
-------------------------------------------
No doubt that will happen, so what?
-------------------------------------
I can think of a half dozen sailors who have gone before her,
all of then older than 16 when their problems developed.
-------------------------------------
>I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
rescue beacons.
-------------------------
Yep.

Lew

"Dave In Texas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>
> Dave in Houston

Lucky for her and her parents.

On Jun 12, 1:20 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

> And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
> Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
> one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
> maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.

Using the same boating comparison logic instead of an actual dollar,
it was not as expensive as an aircraft carrier (a very expensive
boat), or and nuclear submarine, or even just the super sized personal
yachts such as the Dubai.

The used Open 40's (not to be confused with the Class 40's) of that
vintage seem to be in the area of $425,000 to $450,000. The Anasazi
Girl seems to be almost as fully equipped as Abby's but seem to be
missing the pricey (OK, to me) auto pilot features, etc. There are
two Open 40's for sale here:

http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/Open40AnasaziGirl

And another questions comes to mind; of the boat is not wrecked, why
would they even consider sinking it?

Link to the LA Times article:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/39olxkn

Apparently the boat (even at it's value of +/- $425,000 may not be
worth saving, and might be left for salvage. If it isn't worth towing
back, (think of this as your car), wouldn't you call it a wreck?
Semantics may vary, but to me, if it suffered physical damage to the
point of it being unable to perform it's intended task, whether it is
a car, boat, or train, I would say it was wrecked.

You will probably say severely damaged.

Although I could not find the exact article, I read that the cost of
her refitted and fully updated electronics package was about
$600,000. This was in a interview that was done before she took off.

So say it was only worth $500,000. I guess in today's brave new world
of "billions" for everything imaginable, a casual 1/2 million tossed
away isn't much.

Still, no matter how I try to be an expansive thinker, a half million
dollar toy is expensive to me.

YMMV.

> > It was always that child's
> > dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
> > planet.
>
> > To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
> > plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
> > followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
> > charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
> > doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
> > wonderful things.
>
> > Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
> > flight instructor.

> That's a nice fiction,

Really? What part is fiction? Don't you remember the news coverage
she got? School kids charted her progress, teachers made maps, etc.,
to show how she was doing. There are still articles on the 'net that
talk about her classmates following along.

She constantly wore her pink "Girls Fly" cap while going on her trip.

In fact, the day they crashed, they had just left a large group of
reporters that were eagerly relaying every scrap of information they
could get. Every minute of her flight was covered for all to see.

And of course they did crash.

> but in fact what killed them was an overloaded
> plane at a high density altititude in bad weather. There's not even any
> real reason to believe that the kid was flying the plane--she had a
> flight instructor sitting next to her with a full set of controls.
> Chuck Yeager may not have been able to pull that one out.

You aren't saying the Dubroffs would pull a fast one are you? Surely
Jessica was flying...

In fact, there are a great deal of statements from fellow fliers and
colleagues of Reid that think he was not flying. It may be loyalty to
him, but they say that he was simply too good and too experienced as a
pilot to crash under challenging, but not impossible conditions.

The litany of mistakes made by the CPIC was long enough I hope the
child was flying and not Reid.

Bottom line; we'll never know.


> > Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
> > USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
> > wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
> > trying another sailing record?
>
> And if she pulls it off, then what?

I am thinking of a mother nursing a newborn going on the next moon
shot so her child can claim it was the youngest to go to the moon.

Only to be topped by a fetus in suspended animation to go to Mars and
back.

> This business of treating kids as something other than miniature adults
> is recent.

For me, I would add that the business of exploiting your kids for your
own gratification is nothing new.

Robert

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:10:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 6/13/2010 9:26 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>>> If she hadn't made such poor decisions involving equipment I would
>>> agree with you.
>> -----------------------------------------
>> It is obvious that the "Brain Trust" for this attempt had a strong
>> influence
>> from the "Go Fast", hitech racing crowd.
>>
>> (Carbon spar, water ballast, etc)
>>
>> It is also obvious they really didn't understand 12VDCV power systems
>> on an extended voyage sail boat.
>>
>> IMHO, the decision to use an electronic/electro/hydraulic auto pilot
>> rather
>> than a servo wind vane doomed this project before it ever left the
>> dock.
>>
>> To keep weight to a minimum, the house bank battery was much to small
>> for the task.
>>
>> As a result, the recharge rate was less than optimum.
>>
>> The alternator chosen required a 2 gang set of matched belts to drive
>> it; however,
>> the 18 HP, Yanmar diesel is fitted with only a single groove sheave.
>>
>> As a result, the alternator "Ate" belts.
>>
>> (This maybe what Abby's "Engine Trouble" was all about since the
>> 18 HP Yanmar is usually fairly reliable.)
>>
>> The basic design parameter of a sailboat electrical system is that the
>> house bank must carry the load while cycling between 60% and 90%
>> of capacity.
>>
>> Some simple rules of wet cell batteries.
>>
>> For every 100AH consumed, you must replace with 125AH
>>
>> The sustained average recharge rate of a battery is about 15%.
>>
>> If you want to recharge at a 60A rate you need 400AH of batteries.
>>
>> They stopped in Cabo and added some house battery capacity but
>> didn't have a 2 gang sheave machined and installed to solve the
>> belt drive problem.
>>
>> Machinery and electronics are great things, but on a small sailboat
>> trying to
>> do a non stop around the world passage, electrical and machine devices
>> will
>> bite you in the ass.
>>
>> At least that was my experience sailing a 30ft boat on the Great
>> Lakes.
>>
>> Had many machinery malfunctions but never had a piece of line (rope)
>> fail.
>>
>> Sailing and simplicity go together.
>>
>> Machinery on a sail boat is a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO.
>
>One does wish that L. Francis Herreshoff was alive to comment on the
>current state of the art.
>

He'd be at the forefront of technolgy, just as he was in his day.

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:15:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>>>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
>>>>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
>>>> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>>
>>> Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
>>> isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.
>>
>>
>> In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.
>
>There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
>someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
>mistaken.

Yes, she still had the option of drifting around until she ran out of
food and water.

On 2010-06-12, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

> Lucky for her and her parents.

Yeah! What luck. What a total surprise. It's not like she didn't
have more people than Waldo looking out for her.

nb

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>>>Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was
>>>also an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>
>> Not in those conditions, he didn't.
>>
>
> Correct.
>
> Consider then, Shackleton.

'scuse me, what scientific observations or previously unachieved endeavors
was Abby aiming for? Other than being the youngest to do something.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Jun 14, 3:10=A0am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:47:06 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>Yeah, right, every time a kid decides to do something it's because the
> >>kid was being exploited by somebody. =A0Never occurs to you that the ki=
d
> >>may be doing something that was his or her own idea.
>
> > Another poor attempt at reasoning. How many kids would drink, have
> > sex, do drugs and drive the family car while underage if there was no
> > adult there to supervise them. The answer is practically all of them.
> > Adults most important job is to advise and raise their children. Any
> > type of young age activity that gets the media attention like this one
> > did is exploitation in part or in whole by an adult. Otherwise it
> > usually doesn't happen.
>
> And that includes things such as the olympics. I've seen more than one
> child's childhood ruined by spending her every free moment training for
> gymnastics.

Jon Benet.

> Same thing with other sports.

Yes, including supervised soccer practice every afternoon. Kids should
have time to be kids.

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:45:09 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>
>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot less
>> to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him and yet he
>> made it as far as she needed to go.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also an
>excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Not in those conditions, he didn't.

On Jun 14, 8:41=A0am, [email protected] wrote:

> You have read too many fictitious adventure novels, dude. The safest
> thing for her to do with what was in the water would be to cut it free
> so it would either sink or drift away - and not poke holes in her
> boat. Hulk Hogan would not be able to raise that mast and jury rig it
> - WHILE ON DRY LAND. The chances of her even getting that mast back on
> board the boat were zero. It would have been a very dangerous and
> stupid thing to even attempt.

We chewed on this a bit over the weekend's barbecue and cigars.

Without all the speculation about remasting (thanks Hollywood!) the
boat, I am wondering how she would now deal with the speculative
"debris" or "material to be repurposed" mentioned. Would she cut it
away, or would she use the "aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
the
boat" to rehab/rework the boat into something she could sail, steer
and navigate. Did she have the necessary tools to do so?

I have a friend that used to sail/race yachts competitively. While he
had no money, he worked on the boats at a sailboat shop and they took
him along as a hand. Once proficient, he made nice weekend money in
the friendly regattas between held on the larger lakes around here.

I asked him what he thought about all of this... not much.

But then I posed JC's opine about righting a boat, chopping through
debris, rigging a mast from broken material and then sailing away to a
safe port.

I though he was going to spill his beer he was laughing so hard.

He reviewed the facts for me. OK... so this 16 year old 125 pound kid
is going to *right* a dismasted 40' boat all by herself in the middle
of the ocean?

She will swim around in the rigging, sails, fittings and broken mast
to clear the wreckage. The she will have to right a boat that is as
long as three of your pickups >>by herself<<, then saw up a carbon
fiber mast, drill holes into the mast or tie off to hold fittings, cut
a new sail to size from the old one, fabricate hard on the sail to
attach it to the rigging, re-rig the sail, hoist it up and then set
off for a port? All of this alone? And she thinks this new
contraption will be navigable?

Do you know how tall a mast is on those boats? (No... I am no
sailor). About 60 ft or so. Do you know what it would take to get
that wet, submerged sail out of the water by itself? (no...) Then
imagine bobbing up and down in the rigging, a loose mast (possibly
broken) 60' away from your flotation while trying to get all that
other cutting, sawing, fitting, tying off and other crap done.

"Have you ever even tried to right a tipped boat of any size, Robert?"

Nope.

He assured me I would see the lunacy of the above mentioned tasks I
tried to right is little 20' skimmer he uses on the local lakes.

Not to be a dream stealer or a naysayer, I told him that on this
newsgroup, all things were possible. At least to some.

He promised me that he would pay good money to see a teenage girl
right a 40' boat with a 60' sail on or off it, then reattach a mast of
sorts and sail away.

I was thinking.... now THAT would be your book, movie and speaking
engagements...

I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
rescue beacons.

Robert

Dave In Texas wrote:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>
> Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton drove up:
"Who invited you to the party?"

[email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Lucky for her and her parents.
>
> Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
> they found that kid.
>
> In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
> attention.
...

The aforementioned self-aggrandizement which irritating as hell aside,
the thing that bothered me about this whole escapade was that apparently
ignored sound advice to arrange departure to avoid being where she was
during the heavy weather season. No excuse for stupidity imo...

--

On 6/12/2010 1:14 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon"<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Lucky for her and her parents.
>
> Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
> they found that kid.
>
> In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
> attention.
>
> Her parents will get the same. Now there will be a "heroic" twist to
> the story, which will no doubt be much more bankable than if she made
> it. I can already see Oprah asking the parents "what they were
> thinking" and listening to them reason out they weren't the type of
> parents to be dreams stealers.
>
> I can imagine the talk show hosts asking her if she was ever scared,
> while displaying her book on the desk.
>
> They better get cracking, though. There is another young girl ( is
> there ANYTHING fully empowered children can't do these days? ) that
> wanted to do the same trip at 13. The Dutch courts where she lives
> blocked her try. (Dream stealing bastards... she even told them it
> was her lifelong dream... )
>
> She has since run away from home with her boat to try, but without the
> millions of dollars of gear and logistic provided to Abby, didn't get
> too far.
>
> She has proudly announced that it is a matter of time, and once she
> gets it back together, she will board "The Guppy" and make another
> attempt. No one will steal the dreams of that now 14 year old girl.

The courts handed the Dutch government their asses on that one--they're
not going to be able to block her again.

> Sadly for Abby, if she makes it the Dutch girl will eclipse ALL the
> attention Abby will enjoy. After Abby blowing her horn about staring
> down her fears, waiting heroically to be rescued, and mastering her
> emotions while waiting for rescue, in the end she has just wrecked a
> very expensive boat.

Not really. Dekker is not going for a nonstop, unaccompanied
circumnavigation--she's going port-to-port in company with another boat.

Dekker may end up the youngest solo circumnavigator, but Jessica Watson
remains the youngest nonstop solo circumnavigator.

And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.

> Almost making achieving that goal is the same as almost winning the
> Super Bowl, almost winning the World Series, almost winning the
> Stanley Cup. Soon, no one will remember her name.
>
> Although.... there is an alternative to the attention they crave.
> Surely I can't be the only one to remember the parent/child combo that
> tried to fly across the USA in a plane. It was always that child's
> dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
> planet.
>
> To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
> plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
> followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
> charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
> doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
> wonderful things.
>
> Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
> flight instructor.

That's a nice fiction, but in fact what killed them was an overloaded
plane at a high density altititude in bad weather. There's not even any
real reason to believe that the kid was flying the plane--she had a
flight instructor sitting next to her with a full set of controls.
Chuck Yeager may not have been able to pull that one out.

> BUT - now they indeed have a valid, permanent
> place in the record books.
>
> They even created the impetus in Congress to pass a law that will keep
> others from challenging their record, as it makes it illegal in the
> USA to have children that young fly.

Not quite. It's illegal for anyone not holding a private license or
better and a valid medical to manipulate the controls in "any record
attempt, aeronautical competition, or aeronautical feat".

> How many people can inspire
> actual binding laws? So their efforts will always be a part of
> history.
>
> Mission accomplished.
>
> Ted Koppel had this to say: (from Time magazine)
>
>>> To its credit, ABC confronted the issue of whether television was complicit in the tragedy. On Nightline, Ted Koppel spoke for the network when he said, "We need to begin by acknowledging our own contribution...We feed one another: those of you looking for publicity and those of us looking for stories." Then he posed the question of "whether we in the media...by our ravenous attention contribute to this phenomenon," and answered it himself: "We did."<<
>
> Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,984431-5,00.html#ixzz0qfBGuHgW
>
> Fear not. In this empowering, vapid, society of attention seekers,
> there will be others to pick up the slack Abby left on her trip.
> Since there is no glory in simply sailing around the world (defeating
> the well hashed quote "I sail for the love of sailing") I doubt she
> will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
> interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
> enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.


>
> Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
> USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
> wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
> trying another sailing record?

And if she pulls it off, then what?

This business of treating kids as something other than miniature adults
is recent.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Lucky for her and her parents.

Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
they found that kid.

In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
attention.

Very well put - all of it.

HeyBub wrote:
...

> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
there was a choice to be made????

--

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
> Fear not. In this empowering, vapid, society of attention seekers,
> there will be others to pick up the slack Abby left on her trip.
> Since there is no glory in simply sailing around the world (defeating
> the well hashed quote "I sail for the love of sailing") I doubt she
> will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
> interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
> enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.
>
> Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
> USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
> wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
> trying another sailing record?
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> Fear not, I am sure the Chinese are already working on a 10 year old
> completing the task and she will be presented as a 16 year old. ;~)
>
>
>

No, no, you got that backwards ...

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave In Texas wrote:
>>
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>>
>> Dave in Houston
>
> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>
> She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton drove
> up: "Who invited you to the party?"
>

She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say 'Nevermind!'
when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

On 6/12/2010 6:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 12, 1:20 pm, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
>> Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
>> one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
>> maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.
>
> Using the same boating comparison logic instead of an actual dollar,
> it was not as expensive as an aircraft carrier (a very expensive
> boat), or and nuclear submarine, or even just the super sized personal
> yachts such as the Dubai.
>
> The used Open 40's (not to be confused with the Class 40's) of that
> vintage seem to be in the area of $425,000 to $450,000. The Anasazi
> Girl seems to be almost as fully equipped as Abby's but seem to be
> missing the pricey (OK, to me) auto pilot features, etc. There are
> two Open 40's for sale here:
>
> http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/Open40AnasaziGirl
>
> And another questions comes to mind; of the boat is not wrecked, why
> would they even consider sinking it?
>
> Link to the LA Times article:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/39olxkn
>
> Apparently the boat (even at it's value of +/- $425,000 may not be
> worth saving, and might be left for salvage. If it isn't worth towing
> back, (think of this as your car), wouldn't you call it a wreck?
> Semantics may vary, but to me, if it suffered physical damage to the
> point of it being unable to perform it's intended task, whether it is
> a car, boat, or train, I would say it was wrecked.
>
> You will probably say severely damaged.
>
> Although I could not find the exact article, I read that the cost of
> her refitted and fully updated electronics package was about
> $600,000. This was in a interview that was done before she took off.
>
> So say it was only worth $500,000. I guess in today's brave new world
> of "billions" for everything imaginable, a casual 1/2 million tossed
> away isn't much.
>
> Still, no matter how I try to be an expansive thinker, a half million
> dollar toy is expensive to me.

I found the ad a while back in which the owner of the boat at the time
was asking something like 120K. Can't find it now though.

> YMMV.
>
>>> It was always that child's
>>> dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
>>> planet.
>>
>>> To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
>>> plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
>>> followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
>>> charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
>>> doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
>>> wonderful things.
>>
>>> Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
>>> flight instructor.
>
>> That's a nice fiction,
>
> Really? What part is fiction?

That she killed anybody.

> Don't you remember the news coverage
> she got?

I remember a lot of news coverage. However if you find the NTSB report
they concluded that the cause of the crash was not an inexperience pilot
but an overloaded aircraft at a high density altitude. Of course the
newspapers know far more about the causes of plane crashes than the
professional accident investigators, so we should always believe the
newspapers.

> School kids charted her progress, teachers made maps, etc.,
> to show how she was doing. There are still articles on the 'net that
> talk about her classmates following along.

Which has no relevance at all to the truth of the notion that her
piloting skills or lack of same were the cause of the crash.

> She constantly wore her pink "Girls Fly" cap while going on her trip.

If I wear a hat that says "Barack Obama" does that make me President?

> In fact, the day they crashed, they had just left a large group of
> reporters that were eagerly relaying every scrap of information they
> could get. Every minute of her flight was covered for all to see.

It was? So how many reporters died in the crash and where is the
footage showing her at the controls as it progressed? Sorry, they
didn't "cover every minute of her flight". The covered her arrivals and
departures but really had no idea what was going on in the cockpit at
any given moment.

> And of course they did crash.

So did this 2000 hour pilot, for the same reasons:

<http://www.aopa.org/asf/epilot_acc/lax07fa258.html>

>> but in fact what killed them was an overloaded
>> plane at a high density altititude in bad weather. There's not even any
>> real reason to believe that the kid was flying the plane--she had a
>> flight instructor sitting next to her with a full set of controls.
>> Chuck Yeager may not have been able to pull that one out.
>
> You aren't saying the Dubroffs would pull a fast one are you? Surely
> Jessica was flying...

Doesn't matter who was flying. Damned few pilots are good enough to
pull a save under those circumstances.

> In fact, there are a great deal of statements from fellow fliers and
> colleagues of Reid that think he was not flying. It may be loyalty to
> him, but they say that he was simply too good and too experienced as a
> pilot to crash under challenging, but not impossible conditions.

What makes you think that the conditions were not impossible? If you
look at the above video you'll see a pilot with more experience than
Reid lose it under the same conditions.

> The litany of mistakes made by the CPIC was long enough I hope the
> child was flying and not Reid.

There were, according to the NTSB, three mistakes. 100 pounds
overloaded, high density altitude, and bad weather.

> Bottom line; we'll never know.

But you'd rather believe the newspapers and the opinions of people who
were not there and did not investigate the crash over the findings of
the crash investigators.
>
>
>>> Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
>>> USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
>>> wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
>>> trying another sailing record?
>>
>> And if she pulls it off, then what?
>
> I am thinking of a mother nursing a newborn going on the next moon
> shot so her child can claim it was the youngest to go to the moon.

In 1920 you would have said the same thing about a mother nursing a
newborn flying across the Atlantic. Now it's an everyday occurrance.

> Only to be topped by a fetus in suspended animation to go to Mars and
> back.

Sure, who wants to be stuck with a squalling baby on a spaceship for two
years?

>> This business of treating kids as something other than miniature adults
>> is recent.
>
> For me, I would add that the business of exploiting your kids for your
> own gratification is nothing new.

Yeah, right, every time a kid decides to do something it's because the
kid was being exploited by somebody. Never occurs to you that the kid
may be doing something that was his or her own idea.

On 6/12/2010 7:32 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> Dave In Texas wrote:
>>
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>>
>> Dave in Houston
>
> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>
> She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton drove up:
> "Who invited you to the party?"

Yup--the downside of EPIRBs is that once one triggers, if your radio's
out there's no way to stop the search until somebody finds you and
"rescues" you.
>
>

On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Dave In Texas wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave in Houston
>>
>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>
>> She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
>> drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"
>>
>
> She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
> 'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.

On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
> HeyBub wrote:
> ...
>
>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>
> ???
>
> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
> there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him and
yet he made it as far as she needed to go.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>> HeyBub wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>
>> ???
>>
>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
>> there was a choice to be made????
>
> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot less
> to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him and yet he
> made it as far as she needed to go.
>
>
>

Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also an
excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Dave In Texas wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave in Houston
>>>
>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>
>>> She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
>>> drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"
>>>
>>
>> She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
>> 'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!
>
> Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
> designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.
>

What I read said she activated them. Which makes sense. She was reportedly
on the satellite phone and was cut off due to the mast/antenna being carried
away. Apparently an hour or so later both beacons were activated.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>
>>>> ???
>>>>
>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>> think
>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>
>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
>>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
>> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>
> Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
> isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.


In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/12/2010 9:50 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Dave In Texas wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave in Houston
>>>>>
>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>
>>>>> She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
>>>>> drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
>>>> 'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!
>>>
>>> Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
>>> designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.
>>>
>>
>> What I read said she activated them. Which makes sense. She was
>> reportedly on the satellite phone and was cut off due to the
>> mast/antenna being carried away. Apparently an hour or so later both
>> beacons were activated.
>
> The knockdown could have actuated them though--we don't know that the
> dismasting was simultaneous with the satphone shutdown.
>
> A lot of assumptions being made, and you know what "assume" does.


Uh, huh. Spent a fair amount of time in both corners.

On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>
>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.

On 6/12/2010 9:50 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Dave In Texas wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave in Houston
>>>>
>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>
>>>> She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
>>>> drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"
>>>>
>>>
>>> She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
>>> 'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!
>>
>> Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
>> designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.
>>
>
> What I read said she activated them. Which makes sense. She was
> reportedly on the satellite phone and was cut off due to the
> mast/antenna being carried away. Apparently an hour or so later both
> beacons were activated.

The knockdown could have actuated them though--we don't know that the
dismasting was simultaneous with the satphone shutdown.

A lot of assumptions being made, and you know what "assume" does.

On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>
>>>>> ???
>>>>>
>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>> think
>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>
>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
>>>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
>>> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>
>> Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
>> isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.
>
>
> In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.

There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
mistaken.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>>>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
>>>>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
>>>> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>>
>>> Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
>>> isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.
>>
>>
>> In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.
>
> There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as someone
> who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be mistaken.
>


I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something like
seven years with Cook.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
>> I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something
>> like seven years with Cook.
> -----------------------------------
> Are you suggesting that her sextant skills may be a little rusty or
> perhaps she bypassed the need to learn morse code?
>
> Lew
>
>

Is their a standard test for solo circum-navigation? Didn't she put in to SA
to get the $150K nav system repaired?

On 6/13/2010 1:08 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>
>> There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
>> someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
>> mistaken.
> -------------------------------------
> She has been a live aboard cruiser.
>
> My money says she can strip and rebuild an outboard while seated in
> the dinghy it drives.

If she hadn't made such poor decisions involving equipment I would agree
with you.

On 6/13/2010 1:10 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>>>>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
>>>>>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
>>>>> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
>>>> isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.
>>>
>>>
>>> In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.
>>
>> There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
>> someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
>> mistaken.
>>
>
>
> I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something
> like seven years with Cook.

So what leads you to believe that her navigational skills were
insufficient to the task of hitting Australia?

On 6/13/2010 3:09 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>
>>> I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in
>>> something like seven years with Cook.
>> -----------------------------------
>> Are you suggesting that her sextant skills may be a little rusty or
>> perhaps she bypassed the need to learn morse code?
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>
> Is their a standard test for solo circum-navigation? Didn't she put in
> to SA to get the $150K nav system repaired?

No. What was being repaired was the autopilot.

I have no idea whether she knows how to do celestial navigation. It's
not really all that hard though. Tania Aebi figured it out as she went,
and she started with an almighty lot less experience than Abby Sunderland.

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>> HeyBub wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>
>> ???
>>
>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
>> there was a choice to be made????
>
> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...


Oh, yeah, right! :(

Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
electronics to tell here where land might even be...

--

dpb wrote:
...

> Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
> even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
> electronics to tell here where land might even be...

And, just to make it clear, no, this old wheat farmer wouldn't have a
clue, either, and ain't clamin' would've made it as far as she did, even
(but then again, woulda' known better as well).

I just don't think she's ever sailed enough w/o all the modern
appurtenances to have a even a ghost of a chance w/o 'em if more than a
short distance away from shore what more w/ in a disabled boat...

--

On 6/13/2010 2:27 PM, dpb wrote:
> dpb wrote:
> ...
>
>> Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
>> even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
>> electronics to tell here where land might even be...
>
> And, just to make it clear, no, this old wheat farmer wouldn't have a
> clue, either, and ain't clamin' would've made it as far as she did, even
> (but then again, woulda' known better as well).
>
> I just don't think she's ever sailed enough w/o all the modern
> appurtenances to have a even a ghost of a chance w/o 'em if more than a
> short distance away from shore what more w/ in a disabled boat...

The only "modern appurtenance" she needed and didn't have was a stick of
wood.

On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>
>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...
>
>
> Oh, yeah, right! :(
>
> Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
> even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
> electronics to tell here where land might even be...

Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>
>>>> ???
>>>>
>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>> think
>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>
>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...
>>
>>
>> Oh, yeah, right! :(
>>
>> Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
>> even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
>> electronics to tell here where land might even be...
>
> Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.

That's true I don't know her -- what I do know is that she's only 16,
not a seasoned sailor w/ 20 years' experience behind her to draw on from
which to improvise. I also know she ignored advice to reschedule
departure to avoid being where she was this time of year which is
notoriously bad weather period for the area.

--

On 6/13/2010 8:56 PM, dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>
>>>>> ???
>>>>>
>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>> think
>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>
>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, yeah, right! :(
>>>
>>> Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
>>> even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
>>> electronics to tell here where land might even be...
>>
>> Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.
>
> That's true I don't know her -- what I do know is that she's only 16,
> not a seasoned sailor w/ 20 years' experience behind her to draw on from
> which to improvise.

Doesn't take 20 years experience, it takes a modicum of mechanical
aptitude. And supposedly she has done a good deal of singlehanded ocean
sailing prior to this, so she's more "seasoned" than many.

> I also know she ignored advice to reschedule
> departure to avoid being where she was this time of year which is
> notoriously bad weather period for the area.

Which reflects on her judgment but not on her ability to tie ropes and
cloth to a stick of wood (or aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium or
whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside the
boat are made of).


>
> --

On 6/13/2010 9:26 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>> If she hadn't made such poor decisions involving equipment I would
>> agree with you.
> -----------------------------------------
> It is obvious that the "Brain Trust" for this attempt had a strong
> influence
> from the "Go Fast", hitech racing crowd.
>
> (Carbon spar, water ballast, etc)
>
> It is also obvious they really didn't understand 12VDCV power systems
> on an extended voyage sail boat.
>
> IMHO, the decision to use an electronic/electro/hydraulic auto pilot
> rather
> than a servo wind vane doomed this project before it ever left the
> dock.
>
> To keep weight to a minimum, the house bank battery was much to small
> for the task.
>
> As a result, the recharge rate was less than optimum.
>
> The alternator chosen required a 2 gang set of matched belts to drive
> it; however,
> the 18 HP, Yanmar diesel is fitted with only a single groove sheave.
>
> As a result, the alternator "Ate" belts.
>
> (This maybe what Abby's "Engine Trouble" was all about since the
> 18 HP Yanmar is usually fairly reliable.)
>
> The basic design parameter of a sailboat electrical system is that the
> house bank must carry the load while cycling between 60% and 90%
> of capacity.
>
> Some simple rules of wet cell batteries.
>
> For every 100AH consumed, you must replace with 125AH
>
> The sustained average recharge rate of a battery is about 15%.
>
> If you want to recharge at a 60A rate you need 400AH of batteries.
>
> They stopped in Cabo and added some house battery capacity but
> didn't have a 2 gang sheave machined and installed to solve the
> belt drive problem.
>
> Machinery and electronics are great things, but on a small sailboat
> trying to
> do a non stop around the world passage, electrical and machine devices
> will
> bite you in the ass.
>
> At least that was my experience sailing a 30ft boat on the Great
> Lakes.
>
> Had many machinery malfunctions but never had a piece of line (rope)
> fail.
>
> Sailing and simplicity go together.
>
> Machinery on a sail boat is a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO.

One does wish that L. Francis Herreshoff was alive to comment on the
current state of the art.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:47:06 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Yeah, right, every time a kid decides to do something it's because the
>>kid was being exploited by somebody. Never occurs to you that the kid
>>may be doing something that was his or her own idea.
>
> Another poor attempt at reasoning. How many kids would drink, have
> sex, do drugs and drive the family car while underage if there was no
> adult there to supervise them. The answer is practically all of them.

> Adults most important job is to advise and raise their children. Any
> type of young age activity that gets the media attention like this one
> did is exploitation in part or in whole by an adult. Otherwise it
> usually doesn't happen.

And that includes things such as the olympics. I've seen more than one
child's childhood ruined by spending her every free moment training for
gymnastics.

Same thing with other sports.

>
> You seem particularly apt at displaying a lack of common sense. Guess
> that's no surprise.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/13/2010 3:09 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in
>>>> something like seven years with Cook.
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Are you suggesting that her sextant skills may be a little rusty or
>>> perhaps she bypassed the need to learn morse code?
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is their a standard test for solo circum-navigation? Didn't she put in
>> to SA to get the $150K nav system repaired?
>
> No. What was being repaired was the autopilot.
>
> I have no idea whether she knows how to do celestial navigation. It's not
> really all that hard though. Tania Aebi figured it out as she went, and
> she started with an almighty lot less experience than Abby Sunderland.


Well, crikey, there's a recommendation! Maybe the next stunter will have no
experience sailing ...

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/13/2010 1:10 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>>>>>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
>>>>>>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
>>>>> isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.
>>>
>>> There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
>>> someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
>>> mistaken.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something
>> like seven years with Cook.
>
> So what leads you to believe that her navigational skills were
> insufficient to the task of hitting Australia?
>

$200K worth of equipment.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:45:09 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>
>>>> ???
>>>>
>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>> think
>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>
>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>> less
>>> to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him and yet
>>> he
>>> made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also an
>>excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>
> Not in those conditions, he didn't.
>

Correct.

Consider then, Shackleton.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/13/2010 8:56 PM, dpb wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, yeah, right! :(
>>>>
>>>> Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
>>>> even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
>>>> electronics to tell here where land might even be...
>>>
>>> Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.
>>
>> That's true I don't know her -- what I do know is that she's only 16,
>> not a seasoned sailor w/ 20 years' experience behind her to draw on from
>> which to improvise.
>
> Doesn't take 20 years experience, it takes a modicum of mechanical
> aptitude. And supposedly she has done a good deal of singlehanded ocean
> sailing prior to this, so she's more "seasoned" than many.
>
>> I also know she ignored advice to reschedule
>> departure to avoid being where she was this time of year which is
>> notoriously bad weather period for the area.
>
> Which reflects on her judgment but not on her ability to tie ropes and
> cloth to a stick of wood (or aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium or
> whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside the boat
> are made of).

Now picture the captain of the fishing vessel that saved her, tangled and
drowning in that mess because some California teen had a 'dream'.

J. Clarke wrote:
...

> Which reflects on her judgment but not on her ability to tie ropes and
> cloth to a stick of wood (or aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium or
> whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside the
> boat are made of).
...

Which raises the question of how suitable is all the new material of
which the boat was made for hand jury-rigging to begin with and what
tools and other facilities did she (a not very big) 16 yr old girl have
to manhandle wet rigging in rough seas with which to do this feat of
engineering legerdemain? And once done, does she have a clue where she
is or where is shortest suitable landfall and how's her hand navigation
skill, etc., etc., etc. ...

I think she was a _very_ lucky young lady.

Plucky, yes, apparently reasonably competent sailor in her element of
well-equipped boat w/ functional electronics, etc., but foolhardy and as
yet unprepared for the situation she put herself in.

Fortunate there was somebody in the neighborhood, the seas calmed to a
certain amount before she was totally capsized and in the drink herself
separated from the boat and the emergency transponder worked.

--

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jun 14, 3:10 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:47:06 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>Yeah, right, every time a kid decides to do something it's because the
> >>kid was being exploited by somebody. Never occurs to you that the kid
> >>may be doing something that was his or her own idea.
>
> > Another poor attempt at reasoning. How many kids would drink, have
> > sex, do drugs and drive the family car while underage if there was no
> > adult there to supervise them. The answer is practically all of them.
> > Adults most important job is to advise and raise their children. Any
> > type of young age activity that gets the media attention like this one
> > did is exploitation in part or in whole by an adult. Otherwise it
> > usually doesn't happen.
>
> And that includes things such as the olympics. I've seen more than one
> child's childhood ruined by spending her every free moment training for
> gymnastics.

Jon Benet.

> Same thing with other sports.

Yes, including supervised soccer practice every afternoon. Kids should
have time to be kids.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, 25 to a side football. Everybody on the field all the time!

"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>>>Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was
>>>>also an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>>
>>> Not in those conditions, he didn't.
>>>
>>
>> Correct.
>>
>> Consider then, Shackleton.
>
> 'scuse me, what scientific observations or previously unachieved endeavors
> was Abby aiming for? Other than being the youngest to do something.

None.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Jun 14, 8:41 am, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> You have read too many fictitious adventure novels, dude. The safest
>>> thing for her to do with what was in the water would be to cut it free
>>> so it would either sink or drift away - and not poke holes in her
>>> boat. Hulk Hogan would not be able to raise that mast and jury rig it
>>> - WHILE ON DRY LAND. The chances of her even getting that mast back on
>>> board the boat were zero. It would have been a very dangerous and
>>> stupid thing to even attempt.
>>
>>We chewed on this a bit over the weekend's barbecue and cigars.
>>
>>Without all the speculation about remasting (thanks Hollywood!) the
>>boat, I am wondering how she would now deal with the speculative
>>"debris" or "material to be repurposed" mentioned. Would she cut it
>>away, or would she use the "aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
>>or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
>>the
>>boat" to rehab/rework the boat into something she could sail, steer
>>and navigate. Did she have the necessary tools to do so?
>>
>>I have a friend that used to sail/race yachts competitively. While he
>>had no money, he worked on the boats at a sailboat shop and they took
>>him along as a hand. Once proficient, he made nice weekend money in
>>the friendly regattas between held on the larger lakes around here.
>>
>>I asked him what he thought about all of this... not much.
>>
>>But then I posed JC's opine about righting a boat, chopping through
>>debris, rigging a mast from broken material and then sailing away to a
>>safe port.
>>
>>I though he was going to spill his beer he was laughing so hard.
>>
>>He reviewed the facts for me. OK... so this 16 year old 125 pound kid
>>is going to *right* a dismasted 40' boat all by herself in the middle
>>of the ocean?
>>
>>She will swim around in the rigging, sails, fittings and broken mast
>>to clear the wreckage. The she will have to right a boat that is as
>>long as three of your pickups >>by herself<<, then saw up a carbon
>>fiber mast, drill holes into the mast or tie off to hold fittings, cut
>>a new sail to size from the old one, fabricate hard on the sail to
>>attach it to the rigging, re-rig the sail, hoist it up and then set
>>off for a port? All of this alone? And she thinks this new
>>contraption will be navigable?
>>
>>Do you know how tall a mast is on those boats? (No... I am no
>>sailor). About 60 ft or so. Do you know what it would take to get
>>that wet, submerged sail out of the water by itself? (no...) Then
>>imagine bobbing up and down in the rigging, a loose mast (possibly
>>broken) 60' away from your flotation while trying to get all that
>>other cutting, sawing, fitting, tying off and other crap done.
>>
>>"Have you ever even tried to right a tipped boat of any size, Robert?"
>>
>>Nope.
>>
>>He assured me I would see the lunacy of the above mentioned tasks I
>>tried to right is little 20' skimmer he uses on the local lakes.
>>
>>Not to be a dream stealer or a naysayer, I told him that on this
>>newsgroup, all things were possible. At least to some.
>>
>>He promised me that he would pay good money to see a teenage girl
>>right a 40' boat with a 60' sail on or off it, then reattach a mast of
>>sorts and sail away.
>>
>>I was thinking.... now THAT would be your book, movie and speaking
>>engagements...
>>
>>I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
>>The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
>>rescue beacons.
>>
>>Robert
>
> Amen.
>
> There is no one reading this who could find that mast lying in a field
> in Kansas and raise it upright in a 5-10 knot breeze. I'm not sure
> they could do it in still air.
>
> Abby was on a pitching and rolling boat in 30 foot seas and 20-60 knot
> winds.
>

I don't believe the boat was capsized, but everything else still applies.

[email protected] wrote:
...

> I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
> The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
> rescue beacons.
>
> Robert

Indeed, it was the only option remaining which is the point was making
to the whomever to seemed to indicate she might not have asked for rescue.

She is, to repeat yet again, _extremely_ fortunate circumstances turned
out as did.

--

On 6/14/2010 4:15 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/13/2010 1:10 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
>>>>>>>> less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
>>>>>> isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.
>>>>
>>>> There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
>>>> someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
>>>> mistaken.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something
>>> like seven years with Cook.
>>
>> So what leads you to believe that her navigational skills were
>> insufficient to the task of hitting Australia?
>>
>
> $200K worth of equipment.

I guess the US Navy's skills aren't up to that task either then.

But what leads you to believe that the carried $200K worth of navigation
equipment.

On 6/14/2010 10:08 AM, dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
> ...
>
>> Which reflects on her judgment but not on her ability to tie ropes and
>> cloth to a stick of wood (or aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
>> or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
>> the boat are made of).
> ...
>
> Which raises the question of how suitable is all the new material of
> which the boat was made for hand jury-rigging to begin with and what
> tools and other facilities did she (a not very big) 16 yr old girl have
> to manhandle wet rigging in rough seas with which to do this feat of
> engineering legerdemain? And once done, does she have a clue where she
> is or where is shortest suitable landfall and how's her hand navigation
> skill, etc., etc., etc. ...

Well, wet stainless doesn't handle a lot different from dry stainless
and one hopes that she has a few appropriately sized wire rope clips on
hand.

As to having a clue where she is, she lost her mast, not her GPS. If
you think that GPS needs some kind of mast, you've never actually
handled one.

> I think she was a _very_ lucky young lady.
>
> Plucky, yes, apparently reasonably competent sailor in her element of
> well-equipped boat w/ functional electronics, etc., but foolhardy and as
> yet unprepared for the situation she put herself in.

Of course you have examined her at some length on these matters.

> Fortunate there was somebody in the neighborhood, the seas calmed to a
> certain amount before she was totally capsized

Why would a boat with a heavy keel and no mast be "totally capsized"?

> and in the drink herself
> separated from the boat

Why would she be "separated from the boat"? It has been customery for
decades for singlehanders to wear tethers.

> and the emergency transponder worked.

What "transponder"? She has not one but two emergency position
indicating radio transmitters, neither of which is a "transponder". It
would have been quite remarkable for both of them to fail.
>
> --

On 6/14/2010 4:19 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/13/2010 8:56 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>>>>> HeyBub wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> there was a choice to be made????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, yeah, right! :(
>>>>>
>>>>> Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
>>>>> even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
>>>>> electronics to tell here where land might even be...
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.
>>>
>>> That's true I don't know her -- what I do know is that she's only 16,
>>> not a seasoned sailor w/ 20 years' experience behind her to draw on from
>>> which to improvise.
>>
>> Doesn't take 20 years experience, it takes a modicum of mechanical
>> aptitude. And supposedly she has done a good deal of singlehanded
>> ocean sailing prior to this, so she's more "seasoned" than many.
>>
>>> I also know she ignored advice to reschedule
>>> departure to avoid being where she was this time of year which is
>>> notoriously bad weather period for the area.
>>
>> Which reflects on her judgment but not on her ability to tie ropes and
>> cloth to a stick of wood (or aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
>> or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
>> the boat are made of).
>
> Now picture the captain of the fishing vessel that saved her, tangled
> and drowning in that mess because some California teen had a 'dream'.

Why would the "captain of a fishing vessel" be "tangled and drowning in
that mess" and what specific "mess" would this be? And would it make a
difference if it was the rigging of the US Coast Guard Cutter Eagle in
which he was "tangled and drowning"? You seem to be arguing against all
use of sailing vessels.

On 6/14/2010 2:03 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 14, 8:41 am, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> You have read too many fictitious adventure novels, dude. The safest
>>>> thing for her to do with what was in the water would be to cut it free
>>>> so it would either sink or drift away - and not poke holes in her
>>>> boat. Hulk Hogan would not be able to raise that mast and jury rig it
>>>> - WHILE ON DRY LAND. The chances of her even getting that mast back on
>>>> board the boat were zero. It would have been a very dangerous and
>>>> stupid thing to even attempt.
>>>
>>> We chewed on this a bit over the weekend's barbecue and cigars.
>>>
>>> Without all the speculation about remasting (thanks Hollywood!) the
>>> boat, I am wondering how she would now deal with the speculative
>>> "debris" or "material to be repurposed" mentioned. Would she cut it
>>> away, or would she use the "aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
>>> or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
>>> the
>>> boat" to rehab/rework the boat into something she could sail, steer
>>> and navigate. Did she have the necessary tools to do so?
>>>
>>> I have a friend that used to sail/race yachts competitively. While he
>>> had no money, he worked on the boats at a sailboat shop and they took
>>> him along as a hand. Once proficient, he made nice weekend money in
>>> the friendly regattas between held on the larger lakes around here.
>>>
>>> I asked him what he thought about all of this... not much.
>>>
>>> But then I posed JC's opine about righting a boat, chopping through
>>> debris, rigging a mast from broken material and then sailing away to a
>>> safe port.
>>>
>>> I though he was going to spill his beer he was laughing so hard.
>>>
>>> He reviewed the facts for me. OK... so this 16 year old 125 pound kid
>>> is going to *right* a dismasted 40' boat all by herself in the middle
>>> of the ocean?
>>>
>>> She will swim around in the rigging, sails, fittings and broken mast
>>> to clear the wreckage. The she will have to right a boat that is as
>>> long as three of your pickups >>by herself<<, then saw up a carbon
>>> fiber mast, drill holes into the mast or tie off to hold fittings, cut
>>> a new sail to size from the old one, fabricate hard on the sail to
>>> attach it to the rigging, re-rig the sail, hoist it up and then set
>>> off for a port? All of this alone? And she thinks this new
>>> contraption will be navigable?
>>>
>>> Do you know how tall a mast is on those boats? (No... I am no
>>> sailor). About 60 ft or so. Do you know what it would take to get
>>> that wet, submerged sail out of the water by itself? (no...) Then
>>> imagine bobbing up and down in the rigging, a loose mast (possibly
>>> broken) 60' away from your flotation while trying to get all that
>>> other cutting, sawing, fitting, tying off and other crap done.
>>>
>>> "Have you ever even tried to right a tipped boat of any size, Robert?"
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> He assured me I would see the lunacy of the above mentioned tasks I
>>> tried to right is little 20' skimmer he uses on the local lakes.
>>>
>>> Not to be a dream stealer or a naysayer, I told him that on this
>>> newsgroup, all things were possible. At least to some.
>>>
>>> He promised me that he would pay good money to see a teenage girl
>>> right a 40' boat with a 60' sail on or off it, then reattach a mast of
>>> sorts and sail away.
>>>
>>> I was thinking.... now THAT would be your book, movie and speaking
>>> engagements...
>>>
>>> I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
>>> The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
>>> rescue beacons.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> Amen.
>>
>> There is no one reading this who could find that mast lying in a field
>> in Kansas and raise it upright in a 5-10 knot breeze. I'm not sure
>> they could do it in still air.
>>
>> Abby was on a pitching and rolling boat in 30 foot seas and 20-60 knot
>> winds.
>>
>
> I don't believe the boat was capsized, but everything else still applies.

Except that a jury rig doesn't involve erecting a 60 foot mast, it
involves erecting enough mast to move the boat. It's been done
succesefully with a couple of pieces of cut-in-half boom and number
three jib rigged so that what is normally the clew was at the head.

You people aren't grasping that what it takes to move the boat and what
it takes to achieve high performance are two different things.

On 6/14/2010 12:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 14, 8:41 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> You have read too many fictitious adventure novels, dude. The safest
>> thing for her to do with what was in the water would be to cut it free
>> so it would either sink or drift away - and not poke holes in her
>> boat. Hulk Hogan would not be able to raise that mast and jury rig it
>> - WHILE ON DRY LAND. The chances of her even getting that mast back on
>> board the boat were zero. It would have been a very dangerous and
>> stupid thing to even attempt.
>
> We chewed on this a bit over the weekend's barbecue and cigars.
>
> Without all the speculation about remasting (thanks Hollywood!) the
> boat, I am wondering how she would now deal with the speculative
> "debris" or "material to be repurposed" mentioned. Would she cut it
> away, or would she use the "aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
> or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
> the
> boat" to rehab/rework the boat into something she could sail, steer
> and navigate. Did she have the necessary tools to do so?

You mean a hacksaw and some wrenches?

> I have a friend that used to sail/race yachts competitively. While he
> had no money, he worked on the boats at a sailboat shop and they took
> him along as a hand. Once proficient, he made nice weekend money in
> the friendly regattas between held on the larger lakes around here.
>
> I asked him what he thought about all of this... not much.
>
> But then I posed JC's opine about righting a boat,chopping through
> debris, rigging a mast from broken material and then sailing away to a
> safe port.
>
> I though he was going to spill his beer he was laughing so hard.

Well, there went his credbility. For openers, if he was credible he'd
have spilled his beer when you said "righting the boat". This isn't
some damned piece of shit catamaran that's stable in the inverted position.

> He reviewed the facts for me. OK... so this 16 year old 125 pound kid
> is going to *right* a dismasted 40' boat all by herself in the middle
> of the ocean?

It's self-righting, and righted. In the pictures it is not anything but
upright. If he thinks it needs "righting" then he's a fucking idiot.

> She will swim around in the rigging,

Why would she need to "swim around". Presumably the stays are still
attached.

> sails, fittings and broken mast
> to clear the wreckage.

No, she's going to haul the wreckage on deck.

> The she will have to right a boat that is as
> long as three of your pickups>>by herself<<,

Once again with this "right the boat". You keep using this word, I
think it does not mean what you think it means.

> then saw up a carbon
> fiber mast, drill holes into the mast or tie off to hold fittings,

Maybe in the mast, maybe in the boom. She doesn't need a rig that will
move her at racing speed, just one that will make the boat go in the
general direction she wants to go.

> cut
> a new sail to size from the old one,

Or use a smaller sail, like, say the number three jib. Or perhaps wonder
of wonders she actually has a storm trysail aboard.

> fabricate hard on the sail

Sounds like you're saying that he has to give the sail a hand job. What
did you really mean here?

> to
> attach it to the rigging,

She's a girl. Girls are supposed to know how to sew. Geez. But that
assumes that she actually has to make modifications to a sail.

> re-rig the sail,

Yep. Why does he think "re-rigging the sail" is some kind of big deal"?

> hoist it up and then set
> off for a port? All of this alone? And she thinks this new
> contraption will be navigable?

Why would it not?

> Do you know how tall a mast is on those boats?

What difference does it make how long the broken mast is?

> (No... I am no
> sailor). About 60 ft or so.

What of it?

> Do you know what it would take to get
> that wet, submerged sail out of the water by itself? (no...)

A winch. She has a number of them.

> Then
> imagine bobbing up and down in the rigging, a loose mast (possibly
> broken) 60' away from your flotation while trying to get all that
> other cutting, sawing, fitting, tying off and other crap done.

Huh? Why would she be "bobbing up and down in the rigging" and what do
you mean by "60' away from your flotation"?
>
> "Have you ever even tried to right a tipped boat of any size, Robert?"

I'm sorry, but who are we discussing who nees to right a tipped boat?
Your "expert" friend seems to have acquired most of his extensive
experience in daysailers, that get knocked down and have to be righted.
When a boat with a ton of ballast hanging underneath is knocked down,
there are two outcomes, it rights itself or it sinks. Wild Eyes did not
sink, and if you look at the photos you will see that she is in fact
upright in her normal attitude.

> Nope.
>
> He assured me I would see the lunacy of the above mentioned tasks I
> tried to right is little 20' skimmer he uses on the local lakes.

Perhaps if he had experience of something other than a "20' skimmer" he
would not have made such a fool of himself.

> Not to be a dream stealer or a naysayer, I told him that on this
> newsgroup, all things were possible. At least to some.
>
> He promised me that he would pay good money to see a teenage girl
> right a 40' boat with a 60' sail on or off it, then reattach a mast of
> sorts and sail away.

First he would have to find a boat that needed "righting" and was
suitable for ocean crossings.

> I was thinking.... now THAT would be your book, movie and speaking
> engagements...
>
> I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
> The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
> rescue beacons.

Tell your friend to google "keel" and "ballast".

On 6/14/2010 10:47 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> The safest
>> thing for her to do with what was in the water would be to cut it
>> free
>> so it would either sink or drift away - and not poke holes in her
>> boat.
> -------------------------------------
> Absolutely.
>
> Assuming she could have salvaged the boom, she could have used it to
> jury rig a mast using lines and winches on board.
>
> With the boom rigged as a mast, hopefully the would have been able to
> rig a tri-sail as a jib.
>
> Might have been able to maintain 1-3 knots forward motion.
>
> By the time all this was accomplished, SAR would and did respond.
> -----------------------------------------
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Would she cut it
> away, or would she use the "aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
> or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
> the
> boat" to rehab/rework the boat into something she could sail, steer
> and navigate.
> ---------------------------------------
> See above.
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Did she have the necessary tools to do so?
>
> Cable cutters? I hope so.
>
> Simple hydraulic cutters would do the job.
>
> ENERPAC comes to mind.
>
> Small, light weight, actuated with minimum sourse.
>
> You simply cut away the rigging at the chainplates.
>
> The name of the game it to stay ON the boat.
> ------------------------------------------------
>
>> But then I posed JC's opine about righting a boat, chopping through
> debris, rigging a mast from broken material and then sailing away to a
> safe port.
>
> I though he was going to spill his beer he was laughing so hard.
> ----------------------------------------
> That makes two of us. See above.

So you spilled your beer at your own observation that she could have
rigged a jury mast with her boom?

> ------------------------------------------
>> She will swim around in the rigging, sails, fittings and broken mast
> to clear the wreckage.
> ----------------------------------
> You gotta be kidding, she is young, not stupid.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> "Have you ever even tried to right a tipped boat of any size, Robert?"
> -----------------------------------------------
> No need, hull was already in normal sailing position; however,
> only had a stump of a mast remaining.
> ---------------------------------------------
>> He promised me that he would pay good money to see a teenage girl
> right a 40' boat with a 60' sail on or off it, then reattach a mast of
> sorts and sail away.
> ----------------------------------
> Sci-Fi at it's best.
> -----------------------------------
> I was thinking.... now THAT would be your book, movie and speaking
> engagements...
> -------------------------------------------
> No doubt that will happen, so what?
> -------------------------------------
> I can think of a half dozen sailors who have gone before her,
> all of then older than 16 when their problems developed.
> -------------------------------------
>> I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
> The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
> rescue beacons.
> -------------------------
> Yep.
>
> Lew
>
>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:02:16 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Dave In Texas wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/12/AR2010061200672.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave in Houston
>>>
>>> It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.
>>>
>>> She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
>>> drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"
>>>
>>
>> She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
>> 'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!
>
>Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
>designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.

It was my understanding that these particular beacons were manual. Others
would have been activated automatically by water contact. This is one of the
reasons her parents believed that she was OK.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 14, 8:41 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> You have read too many fictitious adventure novels, dude. The safest
>> thing for her to do with what was in the water would be to cut it free
>> so it would either sink or drift away - and not poke holes in her
>> boat. Hulk Hogan would not be able to raise that mast and jury rig it
>> - WHILE ON DRY LAND. The chances of her even getting that mast back on
>> board the boat were zero. It would have been a very dangerous and
>> stupid thing to even attempt.
>
>We chewed on this a bit over the weekend's barbecue and cigars.
>
>Without all the speculation about remasting (thanks Hollywood!) the
>boat, I am wondering how she would now deal with the speculative
>"debris" or "material to be repurposed" mentioned. Would she cut it
>away, or would she use the "aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium
>or whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside
>the
>boat" to rehab/rework the boat into something she could sail, steer
>and navigate. Did she have the necessary tools to do so?
>
>I have a friend that used to sail/race yachts competitively. While he
>had no money, he worked on the boats at a sailboat shop and they took
>him along as a hand. Once proficient, he made nice weekend money in
>the friendly regattas between held on the larger lakes around here.
>
>I asked him what he thought about all of this... not much.
>
>But then I posed JC's opine about righting a boat, chopping through
>debris, rigging a mast from broken material and then sailing away to a
>safe port.
>
>I though he was going to spill his beer he was laughing so hard.
>
>He reviewed the facts for me. OK... so this 16 year old 125 pound kid
>is going to *right* a dismasted 40' boat all by herself in the middle
>of the ocean?
>
>She will swim around in the rigging, sails, fittings and broken mast
>to clear the wreckage. The she will have to right a boat that is as
>long as three of your pickups >>by herself<<, then saw up a carbon
>fiber mast, drill holes into the mast or tie off to hold fittings, cut
>a new sail to size from the old one, fabricate hard on the sail to
>attach it to the rigging, re-rig the sail, hoist it up and then set
>off for a port? All of this alone? And she thinks this new
>contraption will be navigable?
>
>Do you know how tall a mast is on those boats? (No... I am no
>sailor). About 60 ft or so. Do you know what it would take to get
>that wet, submerged sail out of the water by itself? (no...) Then
>imagine bobbing up and down in the rigging, a loose mast (possibly
>broken) 60' away from your flotation while trying to get all that
>other cutting, sawing, fitting, tying off and other crap done.
>
>"Have you ever even tried to right a tipped boat of any size, Robert?"
>
>Nope.
>
>He assured me I would see the lunacy of the above mentioned tasks I
>tried to right is little 20' skimmer he uses on the local lakes.
>
>Not to be a dream stealer or a naysayer, I told him that on this
>newsgroup, all things were possible. At least to some.
>
>He promised me that he would pay good money to see a teenage girl
>right a 40' boat with a 60' sail on or off it, then reattach a mast of
>sorts and sail away.
>
>I was thinking.... now THAT would be your book, movie and speaking
>engagements...
>
>I now think she may have been more in her right mind than I thought.
>The smartest thing she did was call it off and MANUALLY fire off her
>rescue beacons.
>
>Robert

Amen.

There is no one reading this who could find that mast lying in a field
in Kansas and raise it upright in a 5-10 knot breeze. I'm not sure
they could do it in still air.

Abby was on a pitching and rolling boat in 30 foot seas and 20-60 knot
winds.