Competition for SawStop ?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:03:38 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:17:48 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:09:38 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>What about 80ips????
>>>>
>>>> May I spell it out for you? I'm using a SWAG to estimate an 80ips
>>>> speed. Perhaps someone can actually -time- the speed of a flailing
>>>> hand as a person slips and tries to catch himself. Then have Sawstop
>>>> test a wiener at that speed instead of in slow-mo, as they do now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>What happens is one hell of a lot less damage than if the saw was other
>>>>>than
>>>>>a SawStop. I'd still be much happier that I got a bad cut than loose a
>>>>>whole finger, hand, arm, or internal body part.
>>>>
>>>> Very likely true, but we won't know until we see the experiment
>>>> performed. What I'm saying is that the demo is deficient, showing
>>>> only the best-case scenarios. Let's see worst-case!
>>>
>>>Ok, that sounds reasonable but only if you yourself start the experiment
>>>with the saw of your choice including the SawStop. which one are you
>>>going
>>>to choose......?
>>
>> Mean cuss, ain't ya? Telling a consumer advocate to go maim himself.
>> You ought to be ashamed of yourself, Leon.
>>
>> I'd choose the saw which didn't have the asshole attorney attached to
>> it, the Whirlwind licensed machine, of course.
>
>OK, I'll go with the SawStop. Now we are going to shove our hands up under
>the guard as fast as we can like we are playing hand ball. We'll see who
>has the bigger cut. Better yet, you can do yours with your saw turned off,
>I'll let the SawStop run to give you an advantage, maybe.
>
>IIRC the Whirlwind blade simply stops, the speed of your hand will probably
>produce a pretty good cut when it hits that stationary blade. The SawStop
>blade of course instantly stops spinning AND drops below the table.
>
>A- hole attorney or not, I am going with what offers ME the most protection.
>
>The Whirlwind will make all of this type technology become more reasonably
>priced but so far it's a "me too" that does not offer the same amount of
>protection.

I'd like to see the engineering figures on just what that extra 114
milliseconds of time means in the travel of the blade.

What we still don't know, however, is the result of a high-speed hand
into a Sawstop machine. That should have been one of his selling
points...unless it renders the mechanism somewhat useless. That's my
guess, anyway.

But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air...
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Wait until you have to pay big bucks to get a sliver removed at the doctor
despite national healthcare paid for in your taxes, due to a collapsed
budget from all the carefree safety lazy idiots causing themselves
injuries. You USanians have not begun to see the light national healthcare
delivers.

It suddenly becomes EVERYBODY's business.

Any smokers we can charge a premium for coverage?....LOL


"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I get a kick out of how people unwittingly broadcast their bias. By
using the term gadget - a dismissive term, you are doing simply that -
dismissing anyone else's rationale.

You know that a tread has gone on beyond usefulness when people start
claiming to "psychoanalyze" others motives for their position. Hitler
people, Hitler.


"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b005aed2-a95d-4bd0-9391-799656bc5761@i18g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 9:17 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> lcb11211@swbell.
>
> > I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
> > any
> > safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that
> > he
> > knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
> > accident.
>
> However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
> "safe".

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:09 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?
>
> They claim 5.


Definately less than 5, I watched the video with my stop watch and timed
the reaction time of the blade.

;~)

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
>> that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
>> You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
>> have a lapse in judgement.
>
> I spent 33 years in the FD.
> I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
> for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
> I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
> trying to make)
> Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
> Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
> It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
> stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
> In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
> expense. For me.
> I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
> unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
> I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
> expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
> the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
> saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
> I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
> doesn't fit *my* needs.
> Anyone else must make their own decision.
>
> Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy any
safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that he
knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
accident.

Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but I
doubt you all in that percentile.

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote

> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
>


And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common sense,
agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated that I
feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw.

Max

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote

> On 1/21/11 1:28 PM, Max wrote:
>> And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common
>> sense, agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly
>> deteriorated that I feel the need for the device I will discontinue
>> using a table saw.
>>
>> Max
>
> Yeah, because no one has ever followed safety procedures and still gotten
> injured.
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-


I'm a one man shop, Mike. I can't speak for anyone but myself. I bought my
first table saw in 1968.
I have a very close relationship with my body parts so I don't treat them
recklessly.
I'm highly satisfied with the table saw I have and I can't see replacing it
with one that just might out of some rare and unfortunate confluence of
circumstances, significantly damage itself. YMMV.
Please be careful.

Max

Larry Jaques wrote:

> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed
> and
> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
--------------------------------------
<[email protected]> wrote:

In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.

It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
available safety equipment.

Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.

Go get 'em Larry!

Robert
-----------------------------------
Most of my industrial life have had to deal with people who would ONLY
compare things based on their initial cost.

Things like operating costs, maintenance costs, end of life costs and
oh yes insurance costs were totally ignored.

When you give them books and they eat the covers, what are you going
to do but wait for Darwin?

You find another opportunity and wait for Darwin.

Lew


Lew

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote

> Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense,
> agiaity, and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will
> be new safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less
> common and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22
> years ago when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left
> thumb off and the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety
> rule written to prevent the accident that I had.

The saw wasn't turned on??? Then how would the SawStop have helped?
I'd be interested in learning about that accident. Seriously. As a
paramedic for several years, I saw a lot of accidents.
The worst accident I've had in the shop (in over forty years) was when I was
cutting a slim piece of plastic off the edge of a 2'X4' piece (for a
recessed fluorescent light)
I was using one of those notorious "razor" knives, utility knife, whatever.
I cut a nasty gash in my left thumb.
But I must confess to having had 3 beers on a hot afternoon. That was about
twenty years ago. Never again.
I perceive of a good many more potentials in the shop for accidents compared
to the likelihood of my contacting the moving blade on my table saw.
It's a question (to me) of priorities.
I have no doubt that the SawStop is a fine product. It might even end up
being a requirement by OSHA. It would certainly be a recommended item in a
woodworking school.
But considering the odds of me:
1. winning the lottery
2. pushing my finger into a spinning saw blade.
I choose to forego the expenditure.

Max

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
> Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
> during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.

Do you think it was their fault?

Max

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>

> Just keep in mind that the accident that happens is the one that is not
> planned for. No one could believe that I could have had the accident that
> I had.


>The lesson I learned was to never look away from a machine or blade that is
>still moving whether you are actually doing a procedure or not.

Geez, Leon, I learned *that* lesson around 1948 while in a shop class in
high school.
Safety begins with the operator.

I appreciate the attitude and concern of so many of the posters here but I
still believe in "To each his own".

Thanks,
Max

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote

> The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
> that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%. You
> should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or have a
> lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the saw
itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>
>>> Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
>>> during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.
>>
>> Do you think it was their fault?
>>
>> Max
>>
>>
>
> They chose to take the risk. They know what they were dealing with. Same
> with the shuttle crews, it really does not matter whose fault it is, the
> fact is that they chose to take the risk.

As I would have in the same situation.

Max

On 01/22/2011 04:14 PM, Max wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>
>>>> Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
>>>> during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.
>>>
>>> Do you think it was their fault?
>>>
>>> Max
>>>
>>>
>>
>> They chose to take the risk. They know what they were dealing with.
>> Same with the shuttle crews, it really does not matter whose fault it
>> is, the fact is that they chose to take the risk.
>
> As I would have in the same situation.
>
> Max
>
>
I'd give my left nut (it ain't doing me any good anyway) for a ride into
space.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
>>> that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
>>> You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
>>> have a lapse in judgement.
>>
>> I spent 33 years in the FD.
>> I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
>> for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
>> I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
>> trying to make)
>> Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
>> Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
>> It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
>> stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
>> In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
>> expense. For me.
>> I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
>> unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
>> I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
>> expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
>> the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
>> saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
>> I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
>> doesn't fit *my* needs.
>> Anyone else must make their own decision.
>>
>> Max
>
> I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
> any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks
> that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to
> an accident.
>
> Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
> any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but
> I doubt you all in that percentile.

I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip to
the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and crosses
the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are shorter of
that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a spinning saw
blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to manage those
risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having an accident with
my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop) The cost/benefit
ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have already stated what costs
would alter the ratio.
Let me repeat:
I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Max

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> "Max wrote
>> I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose
>> to manage my risk differently than you do.
>> But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.
>>
>> Max
>
> ;~) I understand your position on the matter and agree with your logic.
> I must have misunderstood you from the beginning and , well you know...
>
> I incorrecetly compared you to a few that I have seen in the past in this
> group that seriousely believed that they were incapable of having an
> accident because they knew all the safety rules and followed them with out
> deviation and that they had no reason to believe that that situation would
> ever change.


I agree completely. One must recognize the potential for disaster in order
to avoid..........or mitigate.....it. <G>

Max

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Max wrote

>> I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
>> I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip
>> to the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and
>> crosses the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are
>> shorter of that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a
>> spinning saw blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to
>> manage those risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having
>> an accident with my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop)
>> The cost/benefit ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have
>> already stated what costs would alter the ratio.
>> Let me repeat:
>> I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
>> manage my risk differently than you do.
>> But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.
>>
>> Max
>
> I applaud the quality of your summary, whether the cost/benefit ratio
> makes sense for me or not.

> Of course, I think there is something in
> people which perhaps colors their perceptions of their chances of
> getting hurt--especially with a few thousand dollars on the line.

Good point. A proper attitude is essential.


I like
> to think that for the sake of a few thousand dollars I'm willing to be
> extra careful, but I know I'm not perfect. I also expect I'm not going
> to be spending hundreds of hours at my TS. Maybe there will soon be
> some additional choices in the marketplace--they can't be too far off.
>
> Bill

On Jan 22, 7:37=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 1/22/2011 3:41 AM, CW wrote:
>
> > .Feel free to bow in my presents
>
> Christmas or birthday? As long as it's not socks or underwear ...
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

LMFAO.. beat me to it.. but better.

On Jan 23, 5:54=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> You know, the Nazis used wikipedia links to spread their propaganda,
> Steve.

The surfing one were the worst.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Surf_Nazis.jpg

R

On Jan 21, 1:01=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:

> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.

In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.

It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
available safety equipment.

Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.

Go get 'em Larry!

Robert

On Jan 22, 4:41=A0am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:e860ee04-d2a4-427f-91f7-3824e9ad40b2@l17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 21, 7:12 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 ho=
urs
> > a
> > week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do woul=
d
> > make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut.
>
> =A0>Driving a car, perhaps?
>
> About 15 miles in the last year. Miles on my Harley, on the other hand...
>
> > On the average construction site
> > you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs
> > just
> > a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been trai=
ned
> > in safe working proceders.
> > I for one have never been trained on =A0proceders.
>
> 4x4?
>
> =A0> =A0Good for you! It is too late for me to be perfect, but I am
>
> >glad to know that there are those out there that are
>
> .Feel free to bow in my presents
>

Please tell me you did that on purpose??

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:03:38 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
Snip

>
> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.


And yet you continue to live and participate in a capitalistic society....

Most of us never plan our accidents. It would be an oxymorin

Most of the saw accidents I have heard of get the fingers on a knee-jerk
reaction to a sudden event...like kickback or pieces flying and the human
overreacts pulling their baby finger and next one past the blade backwards.

http://tablesawaccidents.com/table-saw-injury-pictures.htm

Saw guards are hardly ever there when needed except for safety checks.


"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common sense,
agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated that I
feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw.

Max

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense,
>> agiaity, and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will
>> be new safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less
>> common and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22
>> years ago when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left
>> thumb off and the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety
>> rule written to prevent the accident that I had.
>
> The saw wasn't turned on??? Then how would the SawStop have helped?

The motor does not have to be running for the SawStop to work. The blade
was still spinning down after the cut. I was reaching over to lift the rip
fence off the table after cutting a dado. Just the coast down speed did the
damage.


> I'd be interested in learning about that accident. Seriously. As a
> paramedic for several years, I saw a lot of accidents.
> The worst accident I've had in the shop (in over forty years) was when I
> was cutting a slim piece of plastic off the edge of a 2'X4' piece (for a
> recessed fluorescent light)
> I was using one of those notorious "razor" knives, utility knife,
> whatever. I cut a nasty gash in my left thumb.
> But I must confess to having had 3 beers on a hot afternoon. That was
> about twenty years ago. Never again.
> I perceive of a good many more potentials in the shop for accidents
> compared to the likelihood of my contacting the moving blade on my table
> saw.
> It's a question (to me) of priorities.
> I have no doubt that the SawStop is a fine product. It might even end up
> being a requirement by OSHA. It would certainly be a recommended item in
> a woodworking school.
> But considering the odds of me:
> 1. winning the lottery
> 2. pushing my finger into a spinning saw blade.
> I choose to forego the expenditure.
>
> Max

Just keep in mind that the accident that happens is the one that is not
planned for. No one could believe that I could have had the accident that I
had. The lesson I learned was to never look away from a machine or blade
that is still moving whether you are actually doing a procedure or not.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:9a0b1cef-827c-4715-8d6c-f9fa1a4151d2@d23g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 21, 1:01 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
>>> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
>>> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
>>
>>>In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.
>>
>>>It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
>>>and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
>>>available safety equipment.
>>
>>>Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
>>>to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.
>>
>> Go get 'em Larry!
>>
>> I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70
>> hours a week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could
>> do would make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut. I have never so
>> much as lost any skin. Your construction anecdote is not even relevent as
>> far as I'm concerned. Different situation entirely. On the average
>> construction site you have a large number of, if not the majority of,
>> guys that have IQs just a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most
>> never having been trained in safe working proceders.
>
> Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
> during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.
>
>
>
>
>

Wasn't their fault either.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 1/23/2011 10:06 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
>> On 1/23/2011 8:26 AM, Swingman wrote:
>
> "Sure, that $800 stove vent liner will work just fine above your new
> $7,000 stove. No, you don't even need a vent hood, just have your builder
> install it in a cabinet, no problem!"
>
> Yeah, right ... <first 13 photo's is how that works>:
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcaillouet/DurretteKitchenShopPictures?authkey=Gv1sRgCIaJgYOqgKvOVw#
>
> And perhaps worse ... when they _are_ the salesman themselves, as in the
> situation when they see something on the internet that:
>
> "... will work so well under that bath vanity that I ordered it!"
>
> Nuff said ...


Wow I see that the drawer parts were cut to length in the UK!

With some thinking a 3.25" nailgun won't fire a nail out of the nailgun more
than 2", it's no wonder we have these stupid accidents.


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9a0b1cef-827c-4715-8d6c-f9fa1a4151d2@d23g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.

It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
available safety equipment.

Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.

Go get 'em Larry!

Robert

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>
>> Just keep in mind that the accident that happens is the one that is not
>> planned for. No one could believe that I could have had the accident
>> that I had.
>
>
>>The lesson I learned was to never look away from a machine or blade that
>>is still moving whether you are actually doing a procedure or not.
>
> Geez, Leon, I learned *that* lesson around 1948 while in a shop class in
> high school.
> Safety begins with the operator.
>
> I appreciate the attitude and concern of so many of the posters here but I
> still believe in "To each his own".


The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe that
everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%. You should
always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or have a lapse in
judgement.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:9a0b1cef-827c-4715-8d6c-f9fa1a4151d2@d23g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Jan 21, 1:01 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
> >>> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
> >>> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
> >>
> >>>In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.
> >>
> >>>It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
> >>>and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
> >>>available safety equipment.
> >>
> >>>Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
> >>>to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.
> >>
> >> Go get 'em Larry!
> >>
> >> I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70
> >> hours a week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could
> >> do would make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut. I have never so
> >> much as lost any skin. Your construction anecdote is not even relevent as
> >> far as I'm concerned. Different situation entirely. On the average
> >> construction site you have a large number of, if not the majority of,
> >> guys that have IQs just a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most
> >> never having been trained in safe working proceders.
> >
> > Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
> > during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Wasn't their fault either.

However they knew going in that they were doing something far more
dangerous than using a table saw.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>
> > Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
> > during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.
>
> Do you think it was their fault?

Nobody _made_ them climb into a pure oxygen environment on top of 3000
tons of high explosive all built by the lowest bidder.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...
>
> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> >> The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
> >> that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
> >> You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
> >> have a lapse in judgement.
> >
> > I spent 33 years in the FD.
> > I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
> > for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
> > I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
> > trying to make)
> > Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
> > Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
> > It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
> > stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
> > In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
> > expense. For me.
> > I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
> > unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
> > I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
> > expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
> > the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
> > saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
> > I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
> > doesn't fit *my* needs.
> > Anyone else must make their own decision.
> >
> > Max
>
> I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy any
> safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that he
> knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
> accident.

However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
"safe".

The question is what constitutes an acceptable risk. You seem to be
able to tolerate less risk in your life than most people.

> Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
> any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but I
> doubt you all in that percentile.

And having a Sawstop doesn't guarantee that he won't have an accident.
Might not cut his hand off, but that doesn't save him from tripping and
busting his skull on the table edge.

If you aren't trying to sell anything then quit acting like people who
don't spend every cent they have buying safety equipment are doing
wrong.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>
> >>> The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
> >>> that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
> >>> You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
> >>> have a lapse in judgement.
> >>
> >> I spent 33 years in the FD.
> >> I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
> >> for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
> >> I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
> >> trying to make)
> >> Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
> >> Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
> >> It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
> >> stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
> >> In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
> >> expense. For me.
> >> I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
> >> unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
> >> I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
> >> expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
> >> the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
> >> saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
> >> I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
> >> doesn't fit *my* needs.
> >> Anyone else must make their own decision.
> >>
> >> Max
> >
> > I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
> > any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks
> > that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to
> > an accident.
> >
> > Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
> > any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but
> > I doubt you all in that percentile.
>
> I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
> I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip to
> the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and crosses
> the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are shorter of
> that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a spinning saw
> blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to manage those
> risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having an accident with
> my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop) The cost/benefit
> ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have already stated what costs
> would alter the ratio.
> Let me repeat:
> I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
> manage my risk differently than you do.
> But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Saw an interesting statistic. Most fatal amputations occur in
automobile accidents.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:b005aed2-a95d-4bd0-9391-799656bc5761@i18g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 23, 9:17 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > lcb11211@swbell.
> >
> > > I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
> > > any
> > > safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that
> > > he
> > > knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
> > > accident.
> >
> > However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
> > "safe".
>
> I get a kick out of how people unwittingly broadcast their bias. By
> using the term gadget - a dismissive term, you are doing simply that -
> dismissing anyone else's rationale.

Nope. I'm pointing out that accusations of naivete cut both ways.

> You know that a tread has gone on beyond usefulness when people start
> claiming to "psychoanalyze" others motives for their position. Hitler
> people, Hitler.

What about him?

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On 1/23/2011 4:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article<[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >>
> >> You know that a tread has gone on beyond usefulness when people start
> >> claiming to "psychoanalyze" others motives for their position. Hitler
> >> people, Hitler.
> >
> > What about him?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

What about it?

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 1/22/2011 3:41 AM, CW wrote:
>
>> .Feel free to bow in my presents
>
> Christmas or birthday? As long as it's not socks or underwear ...
>
Picky, picky. I was on my 6th beer when I wrote that.

?
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Saw an interesting statistic. Most fatal amputations occur in
> automobile accidents.
>

Holy Crap! I'm taking the table saw out of the back seat.

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>> Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
>> during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.
>
> Do you think it was their fault?
>
> Max
>
>

They chose to take the risk. They know what they were dealing with. Same
with the shuttle crews, it really does not matter whose fault it is, the
fact is that they chose to take the risk.

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
>> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
>> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
>>
>
>
> And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common sense,
> agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated that I
> feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw.
>
> Max

Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense, agiaity,
and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will be new
safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less common
and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22 years ago
when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left thumb off and
the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety rule written to
prevent the accident that I had.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9a0b1cef-827c-4715-8d6c-f9fa1a4151d2@d23g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 21, 1:01 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:

> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.

>In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.

>It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
>and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
>available safety equipment.

>Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
>to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.

Go get 'em Larry!

I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 hours a
week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do would
make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut. I have never so much as lost
any skin. Your construction anecdote is not even relevent as far as I'm
concerned. Different situation entirely. On the average construction site
you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs just
a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been trained
in safe working proceders.

On 1/22/2011 3:41 AM, CW wrote:

> .Feel free to bow in my presents

Christmas or birthday? As long as it's not socks or underwear ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 23, 9:26=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > Let me repeat:
> > I recognize the hazards. =A0I recognize that I am *not* immune. =A0I ch=
oose to
> > manage my risk differently than you do.
> > But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.
>
> Saw an interesting statistic. =A0Most fatal amputations occur in
> automobile accidents.

I saw a statistic that people that point out statistics in totally
unrelated areas are arguing emotionally.

The fact that you feel a need to respond to someone saying in a kindly
way that they manage their risks differently means you are not
handling those emotions at all well.

R

On 1/23/2011 10:06 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
> On 1/23/2011 8:26 AM, Swingman wrote:


>> NEVER, repeat, NEVER put faith in what _any_ salesman tells you,

>> Always consider motive ...
>
> Whenever I take an interest in some field of endeavor, I try to learn as
> much as I can about it, and until I do, I don't open my mouth and claim
> to be any sort of expert. As a woodworker and a musician (ok, a DRUMMER)
> with several decades of experience under my belt, I do know a thing or
> two but I still don't claim to be an expert. Because of those interests,
> Woodcraft and Guitar Center are two retail stores where I can sometimes
> be found browsing the merchandise. It never ceases to amaze me how
> simply being an employee at one of those places automatically makes you
> a genius, and I can't count the number of times I've been automatically
> treated as a rank amateur by some idiot salesman who thinks he knows
> everything. I just love putting people like that in their place. :-)

In custom home building/remodeling, when the client takes it upon
themselves to go into a flooring store, a tile store, a window store, a
cabinet accessory store, an appliance store, a ... ad infinitum, you end
up spending half your time convincing clients that what they were told
by a salesperson, in order to get a sale, is not even close to reality,
as in:

"Sure, that $800 stove vent liner will work just fine above your new
$7,000 stove. No, you don't even need a vent hood, just have your
builder install it in a cabinet, no problem!"

Yeah, right ... <first 13 photo's is how that works>:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcaillouet/DurretteKitchenShopPictures?authkey=Gv1sRgCIaJgYOqgKvOVw#

And perhaps worse ... when they _are_ the salesman themselves, as in the
situation when they see something on the internet that:

"... will work so well under that bath vanity that I ordered it!"

Nuff said ...

:(

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 23, 9:17=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> lcb11211@swbell.
>
> > I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you bu=
y any
> > safety equipment. =A0I am only saying that only a naive person thinks t=
hat he
> > knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
> > accident.
>
> However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
> "safe".

I get a kick out of how people unwittingly broadcast their bias. By
using the term gadget - a dismissive term, you are doing simply that -
dismissing anyone else's rationale.

You seem to be the only one that has come to the conclusion that
_anyone_ feels a SawStop is a). a "gadget" and b). supposedly
infallible and foolproof. Nobody at any time in this thread or any
other thread on this topic has said it "makes then safe." It makes
them safer - no quotes needed.

You may have noticed that big red paddle switch down by your knee on
the TS - does that make you "safe" or "safer"? Are they a bad idea in
your opinion? How about GFIs? Eye protection? Condoms? Jails?

Incremental improvements in safety add up.

> The question is what constitutes an acceptable risk. =A0You seem to be
> able to tolerate less risk in your life than most people.

Most people? You've obviously polled a large number of people to come
to that conclusion, or conducted extensive research to back up what is
otherwise just another guy with a keyboard's opinion. So, please
provide your vetted reference material or at least acknowledge that
many people opt out of your "most people". The acknowledgment is
really not necessary as it's abundantly clear you have no clue what
most people's risk tolerances are, the methods they use to evaluate
them, etc., etc.

You also - surprise! - conflate risk and cost. The cost of a SawStop
or any other safety item is independent of the risk, right? If the
cost of the SawStop, or other such technology, was right in line with
the cost of a competing quality TS without that technology, or at
least close to it (yes, close is a relative term, but deal with it),
do you think that would change how many people opted for the safer
technology? The risk of having an accident hasn't changed, just the
price.

I obviously do not care what you do in your own shop, and you should
not care what I do in mine. If you don't like the progress in
technology, you are free to use your 1940's TS, drive your 1964
Rambler and post from your Commodore 64 through your 14.4K modem. No
one will force you to sell them.

If you must argue emotionally, don't be obstreperous about it and at
least try to have a sense of humor. Thanks.

R

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:e860ee04-d2a4-427f-91f7-3824e9ad40b2@l17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 21, 7:12 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 hours
> a
> week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do would
> make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut.

>Driving a car, perhaps?

About 15 miles in the last year. Miles on my Harley, on the other hand...

> On the average construction site
> you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs
> just
> a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been trained
> in safe working proceders.

> I for one have never been trained on proceders.

4x4?

> Good for you! It is too late for me to be perfect, but I am
>glad to know that there are those out there that are

.Feel free to bow in my presents

> construction workers....Unneeded, arrogant, pathetically stupid and
> uninformed.

Unneeded I would have to disagree with but, other than that, you seem to
have a fair grasp of things.

On Jan 21, 7:12=A0pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 hour=
s a
> week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do would
> make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut.

Driving a car, perhaps?

> On the average construction site
> you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs ju=
st
> a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been traine=
d
> in safe working proceders.

I for one have never been trained on proceders.

All your sanctimonious claptrap is based on the fact you haven't been
injured. Good for you! It is too late for me to be perfect, but I am
glad to know that there are those out there that are.

Your comment about the IQ of 2X4s and construction workers.... it
simply shows just how far down the totem pole of society you are.
Unneeded, arrogant, pathetically stupid and uninformed.

And I didn't even know that Josepi had a sock puppet!

Robert

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
>>>> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
>>>> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common
>>> sense, agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly
>>> deteriorated that I feel the need for the device I will discontinue
>>> using a table saw.
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>> Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense,
>> agiaity, and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will
>> be new safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less
>> common and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22
>> years ago when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left
>> thumb off and the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety
>> rule written to prevent the accident that I had.
>>
> When you are done with a cut, crank the blade down below table height.

That would be tedious and a waste of time and will introduce a lot of
inconsitancy if cutting 30-50+ dado's in draw bottoms.

On 1/21/11 1:28 PM, Max wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
>> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
>> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
>>
>
>
> And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common
> sense, agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly
> deteriorated that I feel the need for the device I will discontinue
> using a table saw.
>
> Max

Yeah, because no one has ever followed safety procedures and still
gotten injured.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/21/11 3:03 PM, Josepi wrote:
> With some thinking a 3.25" nailgun won't fire a nail out of the nailgun more
> than 2", it's no wonder we have these stupid accidents.
>

You sure are a glutton for punishment, aren't you.

I believe your actual delusion was that said nailgun could inflict
bodily injury at a range of 1/4 mile. It's still bull$h!t, btw.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'd like to see the engineering figures on just what that extra 114
>milliseconds of time means in the travel of the blade.

Easy enough to calculate. Assume rotational speed of 3600 rpm = 60 revolutions
per second. 114 ms * 60 revolutions = 6.84 complete revolutions of the blade.
If it's a 40-tooth blade, that means 274 teeth. That's a lot of cutting.
That's a lot of ouch, and a lot of damage, if the object being cut is your
finger.

SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On 1/21/11 3:03 PM, Josepi wrote:
>> With some thinking a 3.25" nailgun won't fire a nail out of the nailgun more
>> than 2", it's no wonder we have these stupid accidents.
>>
>
>You sure are a glutton for punishment, aren't you.
>
>I believe your actual delusion was that said nailgun could inflict
>bodily injury at a range of 1/4 mile. It's still bull$h!t, btw.
>
No, his delusion was that he could *see* the nail at 1/4 mile. But still
bull$h!t.

On 1/21/11 3:54 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 1/21/11 3:03 PM, Josepi wrote:
>>> With some thinking a 3.25" nailgun won't fire a nail out of the nailgun more
>>> than 2", it's no wonder we have these stupid accidents.
>>>
>>
>> You sure are a glutton for punishment, aren't you.
>>
>> I believe your actual delusion was that said nailgun could inflict
>> bodily injury at a range of 1/4 mile. It's still bull$h!t, btw.
>>
> No, his delusion was that he could *see* the nail at 1/4 mile. But still
> bull$h!t.

They're both bull. He wouldn't see it, nor would it be there to be seen.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:09 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

> SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?

They claim 5.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 1/21/11 5:35 PM, Max wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> On 1/21/11 1:28 PM, Max wrote:
>>> And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common
>>> sense, agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly
>>> deteriorated that I feel the need for the device I will discontinue
>>> using a table saw.
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>> Yeah, because no one has ever followed safety procedures and still
>> gotten injured.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -MIKE-
>
>
> I'm a one man shop, Mike. I can't speak for anyone but myself. I bought
> my first table saw in 1968.
> I have a very close relationship with my body parts so I don't treat
> them recklessly.
> I'm highly satisfied with the table saw I have and I can't see replacing
> it with one that just might out of some rare and unfortunate confluence
> of circumstances, significantly damage itself. YMMV.
> Please be careful.
>
> Max
>

No one trying to convince you to replace it.
But to say or imply that you won't ever get hurt if you just follow
safety procedures is nonsense.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon wrote:

>> Max
>
> I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy any
> safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that he
> knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
> accident.

Yes, but there are all kinds of mishaps that can lead to all kinds of
accidents. SawStop helps prevent basically one sort.

Some people mentioned accidents with a TS blade even though the blade
wasn't moving. Are these the result of reaching across the blade or
falling on it in some way? I honestly never considered those possibilities.

The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
even without the safety features. BTW, the "industrial model" (30" wide
table) is $4500, and the "professional model" (w/27" table) is closer to
$2900. Mobile bases are an extra $200, or $300 for the "hydraulic"
version. Salesman was not aware of any differences between the
industrial and professional models beyond the size of the table and the
location of the blade adjustment cranks. At this juncture, I am not
seriously considering spending $4500 on a TS anyway. One needs to draw
the line somewhere...lol.

Bill


>
> Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
> any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but I
> doubt you all in that percentile.
>
>
>
>

Max wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually
>>>> believe that everything that you know is going to guarantee your
>>>> safety 100%. You should always realize that you are human and can
>>>> make a mistake or have a lapse in judgement.
>>>
>>> I spent 33 years in the FD.
>>> I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting
>>> businesses for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25
>>> years.
>>> I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point
>>> *I'm* trying to make)
>>> Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human
>>> nature. Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
>>> It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average.
>>> Some stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
>>> In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an
>>> excessive expense. For me.
>>> I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the
>>> extremely unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
>>> I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF*
>>> the expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair
>>> time was on the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted.
>>> *Provided* that the saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
>>> I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that
>>> it doesn't fit *my* needs.
>>> Anyone else must make their own decision.
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>> I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you
>> buy any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person
>> thinks that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that
>> could lead to an accident.
>>
>> Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife
>> or any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in
>> 1,000,000,000,000,000, but I doubt you all in that percentile.
>
> I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
> I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip
> to the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and
> crosses the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are
> shorter of that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a
> spinning saw blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to
> manage those risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having
> an accident with my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop)
> The cost/benefit ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have
> already stated what costs would alter the ratio.
> Let me repeat:
> I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
> manage my risk differently than you do.
> But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.
>
> Max

I applaud the quality of your summary, whether the cost/benefit ratio
makes sense for me or not. Of course, I think there is something in
people which perhaps colors their perceptions of their chances of
getting hurt--especially with a few thousand dollars on the line. I like
to think that for the sake of a few thousand dollars I'm willing to be
extra careful, but I know I'm not perfect. I also expect I'm not going
to be spending hundreds of hours at my TS. Maybe there will soon be
some additional choices in the marketplace--they can't be too far off.

Bill

On 1/23/2011 8:26 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/22/2011 11:13 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
>> even without the safety features.
>
> NEVER, repeat, NEVER put faith in what _any_ salesman tells you, regardless
> (and particularly in woodworking/hobby stores) ... the ten percent of the time
> they may be even close to right will not make up for the 99% they are not. ;)
>
> Always consider motive ...

Whenever I take an interest in some field of endeavor, I try to learn as much
as I can about it, and until I do, I don't open my mouth and claim to be any
sort of expert. As a woodworker and a musician (ok, a DRUMMER) with several
decades of experience under my belt, I do know a thing or two but I still don't
claim to be an expert. Because of those interests, Woodcraft and Guitar Center
are two retail stores where I can sometimes be found browsing the merchandise.
It never ceases to amaze me how simply being an employee at one of those
places automatically makes you a genius, and I can't count the number of times
I've been automatically treated as a rank amateur by some idiot salesman who
thinks he knows everything. I just love putting people like that in their
place. :-)

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 1/23/2011 4:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> You know that a tread has gone on beyond usefulness when people start
>> claiming to "psychoanalyze" others motives for their position. Hitler
>> people, Hitler.
>
> What about him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 1/23/11 4:42 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> On 1/23/2011 4:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> You know that a tread has gone on beyond usefulness when people start
>>> claiming to "psychoanalyze" others motives for their position. Hitler
>>> people, Hitler.
>>
>> What about him?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
>

You know, the Nazis used wikipedia links to spread their propaganda,
Steve.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ?
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> Saw an interesting statistic. Most fatal amputations occur in automobile
>> accidents.
>>
>
> Holy Crap! I'm taking the table saw out of the back seat.
>


ROFC

(Rolling On Floor Choking - I just knew teaching the cats the Heimlich
maneuver would pay off!)

--
"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! "
Brian's Mum

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
>>> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
>>> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common
>> sense, agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated
>> that I feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw.
>>
>> Max
>
> Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense,
> agiaity, and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will
> be new safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less
> common and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22
> years ago when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left
> thumb off and the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety
> rule written to prevent the accident that I had.
>
When you are done with a cut, crank the blade down below table height.

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b005aed2-a95d-4bd0-9391-799656bc5761@i18g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 9:17 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> lcb11211@swbell.
>
> > I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
> > any
> > safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that
> > he
> > knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
> > accident.
>
> However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
> "safe".

I get a kick out of how people unwittingly broadcast their bias. By
using the term gadget - a dismissive term, you are doing simply that -
dismissing anyone else's rationale.

You know that a tread has gone on beyond usefulness when people start
claiming to "psychoanalyze" others motives for their position. Hitler
people, Hitler.

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
>>>> that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
>>>> You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
>>>> have a lapse in judgement.
>>>
>>> I spent 33 years in the FD.
>>> I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting
>>> businesses for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25
>>> years.
>>> I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point
>>> *I'm* trying to make)
>>> Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
>>> Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
>>> It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
>>> stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
>>> In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
>>> expense. For me.
>>> I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the
>>> extremely unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
>>> I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF*
>>> the expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time
>>> was on the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided*
>>> that the saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
>>> I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that
>>> it doesn't fit *my* needs.
>>> Anyone else must make their own decision.
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>> I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
>> any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks
>> that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead
>> to an accident.
>>
>> Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
>> any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but
>> I doubt you all in that percentile.
>
> I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
> I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip
> to the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and
> crosses the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are
> shorter of that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a
> spinning saw blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to
> manage those risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having
> an accident with my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop)
> The cost/benefit ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have
> already stated what costs would alter the ratio.
> Let me repeat:
> I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
> manage my risk differently than you do.
> But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.
>
> Max

;~) I understand your position on the matter and agree with your logic. I
must have misunderstood you from the beginning and , well you know...

I incorrecetly compared you to a few that I have seen in the past in this
group that seriousely believed that they were incapable of having an
accident because they knew all the safety rules and followed them with out
deviation and that they had no reason to believe that that situation would
ever change.

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:9a0b1cef-827c-4715-8d6c-f9fa1a4151d2@d23g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 21, 1:01 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
>> one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
>> arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.
>
>>In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.
>
>>It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
>>and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
>>available safety equipment.
>
>>Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
>>to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.
>
> Go get 'em Larry!
>
> I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 hours
> a week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do would
> make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut. I have never so much as lost
> any skin. Your construction anecdote is not even relevent as far as I'm
> concerned. Different situation entirely. On the average construction site
> you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs
> just a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been
> trained in safe working proceders.

Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule during
testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
>>> Max
>>
>> I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
>> any
>> safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that
>> he
>> knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
>> accident.
>
> Yes, but there are all kinds of mishaps that can lead to all kinds of
> accidents. SawStop helps prevent basically one sort.
>
> Some people mentioned accidents with a TS blade even though the blade
> wasn't moving. Are these the result of reaching across the blade or
> falling on it in some way? I honestly never considered those
> possibilities.

LOL,,, If not careful a new Forrest WWII can cut you while you are simply
trying to mount it for the first time. Spend enough time in the shop and
you will learn a way to cut your self with a stationary blade when you least
expect it. ;~) Stepping out into the shop is a risk.


>
> The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
> even without the safety features. BTW, the "industrial model" (30" wide
> table) is $4500, and the "professional model" (w/27" table) is closer to
> $2900.



Mobile bases are an extra $200, or $300 for the "hydraulic"
> version. Salesman was not aware of any differences between the industrial
> and professional models beyond the size of the table and the location of
> the blade adjustment cranks. At this juncture, I am not seriously
> considering spending $4500 on a TS anyway. One needs to draw the line
> somewhere...lol.


I would think there would be more to it than that, perhaps a comparison of
the trunions.

On 1/22/2011 11:13 PM, Bill wrote:

> The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
> even without the safety features.

NEVER, repeat, NEVER put faith in what _any_ salesman tells you,
regardless (and particularly in woodworking/hobby stores) ... the ten
percent of the time they may be even close to right will not make up for
the 99% they are not. ;)

Always consider motive ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:52:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The only thing I didn't like about the tone of the posts like yours is
>that some feel like the need to sneer at those who prefer to work more
>safely. After all, you survived all these years doing things exactly
>the way you do, what's the problem with all the pussies? The
>underlying message of the more manly man, the stud in charge of his
>own affairs doesn't have accidents is baloney.

I didn't mean for that post to be sneering (except at the greedy
bastid) or macho, Naily.


>I have seen too many accidents where safety equipment mitigated the
>damage. I have seen too many accidents where lack of it did just the
>opposite. I have done damage to myself, personally, from not using
>available safety devices. I was a many MF, though and didn't think I
>needed to be told what to do. I was pretty sure my civil rights had
>been violated, and that maybe I was a victim of overall weenie boy
>bean counters.
>
>So I got hurt. All I had to do was put on a $3 pair of goggles....
>
>Thankfully, modern technology saved my eye and eyesight. Learned a
>great deal about my personal pride and my thoughts of independence,
>manliness, and other things while waiting to see if my eyesight could
>be restored. Wearing an eyepatch served as a constant reminder to my
>own hard headed stupidity.

Yes, you were lucky. Glad they could save it. Eyesight is precious.


>And reading these posts, I always think of the old saying, "they call
>them accidents for a reason". Working too late in the shop to get a
>project out to keep from being sued (or not paid), working long hours
>to keep the lights on.
>
>Many safety devices simply do not apply to the folks in this group.
>They are for the guys that have an occasional lapse in judgement, the
>guy that miscalculates, someone that has been working at the wheel too
>long that day, someone that might be sick but still has to work their
>8 - 10 hours, someone that is using a tool correctly but in a
>hazardous fashion, someone that encounters an unusual and unexpected
>result when performing a routine operation, someone using tools in
>inclement weather or conditions, etc., etc.

I got lucky last year when I was trying to notch a tubasix on the new
12" CMS. I thought it would rip a 3" section without trouble. One
second later, the 40" piece had jammed itself into the guts of the
machine and broken off the laser mount. It took about 5 minutes for me
to realize just how luck I had been. I might have lost most of my
left hand to it in the same split second. I'll never try that again.
It was late, I was tired, and I wanted to use a shortcut. It might
have worked on the old Delta 10" but it didn't on the HF 12" with the
new blade. I'm glad I wasn't hanging onto the board any tighter.


>Anyone that faces those conditions on a fairly regular basis usually
>has a great appreciation for all the help they can get.
>
>Throw me in with those guys.

Ditto here, but the antics of the Sawstop guy just got under my skin.
I don't want one of his products even if it is safer. I'll settle for
the next best, excess ducats allowing.


>> NOW who has righteousness, Naily? Your and Leon's wishing someone
>> harm just doesn't sit right with me. Enjoy your karma, guys.
>
>Now don't start that. No where, no way did I or do I wish you harm.
>I respect your right to act and conduct yourself as you want, even if
>it seems counter intuitive to me.

I guess I read something into your post, then. Thanks.


>I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
>find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
>doubt.

<g>

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air...
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson