So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there
isn't and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a
soft-close adapter.
I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 14:46:36 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 2/12/2016 2:17 PM, OFWW wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
>>>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
>>>
>>> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in alignment just amplify the problem.
>>>
>>> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed. The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load hauler.
>>>
>>> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
>> guys.
>>
>> I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
>> was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
>> favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
>
>I rebuilt our kitchen in our other home in 1989. With a stack of 3,
>about 32" wide by 24" deep drawers built specifically for pots and pans
>my wife questioned me about the 1/4" plywood bottom I was using.
>
Was it Baltic birch? Not the three ply stuff?
>I put the drawer on the floor upside down and stood up on the drawer
>bottom. Good for about 185 lbs.
>
>I have used a similar load tester in the recent past. IIRC the group
>here named it the LFAT.
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8539981330/in/dateposted-public/
>
I'm surprised with a shot like that, that she or whoever, didn't use
something other than a camera while they had the opportunity. ;)
OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 14:46:36 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/12/2016 2:17 PM, OFWW wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
>>>>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
>>>>
>>>> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A
>>>> fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost
>>>> regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is
>>>> coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight
>>>> distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in
>>>> alignment just amplify the problem.
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big
>>>> drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that
>>>> are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex
>>>> casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I
>>>> quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble
>>>> closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed.
>>>> The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load hauler.
>>>>
>>>> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is
>>>> rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the
>>>> mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries
>>>> the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment
>>>> problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>
>>> WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
>>> guys.
>>>
>>> I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
>>> was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
>>> favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
>>
>> I rebuilt our kitchen in our other home in 1989. With a stack of 3,
>> about 32" wide by 24" deep drawers built specifically for pots and pans
>> my wife questioned me about the 1/4" plywood bottom I was using.
>>
>
> Was it Baltic birch? Not the three ply stuff?
No, just common 1/4 cabinet quality birch plywood, probably 3 ply. I
place my drawer bottoms in groves on all 4 sides. That gives the bottom
significantly more support than the typical method of sliding the bottom in
under the drawer back and fixing with a few screws or brads. Plus those
particular drawer sides, front, and back were made from 3/4" thick
lumbercore and the groves for the bottoms were 3/8" deep.
And much more difficult to repair if the bottom fails and needs to be
replaced. But I have almost always built drawers this way and none have
failed, that I know of. Now I did build about 30-40 drawers for some
bathroom cabinets for Swingman in 2011. His specs called for the bottoms
to be slid in under the back of the drawer and fixed in place. Those
drawers did however have 1/2 thick maple veneer plywood bottoms.
>
>> I put the drawer on the floor upside down and stood up on the drawer
>> bottom. Good for about 185 lbs.
>>
>> I have used a similar load tester in the recent past. IIRC the group
>> here named it the LFAT.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8539981330/in/dateposted-public/
>>
>
> I'm surprised with a shot like that, that she or whoever, didn't use
> something other than a camera while they had the opportunity. ;)
>
>
:-0 O. M. G.
On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 03:21:14 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
>> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
>> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
>> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
>> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
>> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there
>> isn't and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a
>> soft-close adapter.
>>
>> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
>> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
>> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
>> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
>>
>>
>
>Have not used them however I saw those or something very similar to those
>at a WW show about 3-4 years ago. A company specializing in cabinet door/
>drawer hardware jigs, hardware, and clamps was selling a retro fit soft
>close for drawers. FWIW there is also retro fit soft close door hardware
>available.
>
>I would venture to say that the soft close feature on most any drawer slide
>is the weakest part of the slide. These add on units should at the very
>least be the easiest to replace should one fail but more trouble to install
>than simply a slide. IIRC the current slides are not full extension now.
>Would a shorter full extension slide with built in soft close be giving up
>too much if the drawer did not open completely?
Sorry - no personal experience with these .. < made in Germany >
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Hardware/page.aspx?p=67944&cat=3,43614,43617&ap=1
John T.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 2/12/2016 2:17 PM, OFWW wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
>>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
>>
>> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in alignment just amplify the problem.
>>
>> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed. The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load hauler.
>>
>> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
>>
>> Robert
>
> WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
> guys.
>
> I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
> was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
> favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
I rebuilt our kitchen in our other home in 1989. With a stack of 3,
about 32" wide by 24" deep drawers built specifically for pots and pans
my wife questioned me about the 1/4" plywood bottom I was using.
I put the drawer on the floor upside down and stood up on the drawer
bottom. Good for about 185 lbs.
I have used a similar load tester in the recent past. IIRC the group
here named it the LFAT.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8539981330/in/dateposted-public/
>
> I appreciate your thoughts on what to watch out for, as well as build
> considerations.
>
> Thanks.
>
On 2/13/2016 9:59 AM, OFWW wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 09:03:52 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 14:46:36 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/12/2016 2:17 PM, OFWW wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
>>>>>>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A
>>>>>> fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost
>>>>>> regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is
>>>>>> coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight
>>>>>> distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in
>>>>>> alignment just amplify the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big
>>>>>> drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that
>>>>>> are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex
>>>>>> casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I
>>>>>> quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble
>>>>>> closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed.
>>>>>> The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load hauler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is
>>>>>> rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the
>>>>>> mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries
>>>>>> the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment
>>>>>> problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
>>>>> guys.
>>>>>
>>>>> I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
>>>>> was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
>>>>> favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> I rebuilt our kitchen in our other home in 1989. With a stack of 3,
>>>> about 32" wide by 24" deep drawers built specifically for pots and pans
>>>> my wife questioned me about the 1/4" plywood bottom I was using.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Was it Baltic birch? Not the three ply stuff?
>>
>> No, just common 1/4 cabinet quality birch plywood, probably 3 ply. I
>> place my drawer bottoms in groves on all 4 sides. That gives the bottom
>> significantly more support than the typical method of sliding the bottom in
>> under the drawer back and fixing with a few screws or brads. Plus those
>> particular drawer sides, front, and back were made from 3/4" thick
>> lumbercore and the groves for the bottoms were 3/8" deep.
>>
>
> For some reason I thought the drawer bottom should be enclosed on all
> four sides.
LOL, It is for me, I build them like I would a box.
>
> Is there a minimum height above the bottom for the groove? In solid
> sided drawers I used 1/4" with a 1/4" x 1/4' groove when replacing
> drawers in my grand kids chest of drawers. They had 1/2" sides.
That is a good amount to go with. I basically have my 1/4" drawer
bottom "top side" 1/2" from the bottom of the sides. In real world
reality the bottom side of the bottom ends up being a bit over 1/4 from
the bottom of the sides as the plywood is narrower than 1/4" and I fit
the slots to match the actual thickness of the plywood bottom.
>
> It would seem to me that a 3/8 grove should have a 1/2" space between
> it and the bottom of the sides, ends? Or is that excessive?
It is all dependent on what you expect to put in the drawer and if you
expect the bottom to bow from the weight. On my wide kitchen drawers
that holds pots and pans I expected the plywood bottom to bow somewhat
at times. I probably cut the groove 1/2 to 3/4" from the bottom.
I can't really allow too much but can certainly not allow enough.
>
>
>> And much more difficult to repair if the bottom fails and needs to be
>> replaced. But I have almost always built drawers this way and none have
>> failed, that I know of. Now I did build about 30-40 drawers for some
>> bathroom cabinets for Swingman in 2011. His specs called for the bottoms
>> to be slid in under the back of the drawer and fixed in place. Those
>> drawers did however have 1/2 thick maple veneer plywood bottoms.
>>
>
> Were the drawers used as compartmental/bunk beds in an orphanage? :)
no.. ~) Those were drawers built to last in to the next, next
millennium. The sides were solid 3/4" maple.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/5471707872/in/album-72157622991960362/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/5471710794/in/album-72157622991960362/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/5471112571/in/album-72157622991960362/
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> I put the drawer on the floor upside down and stood up on the drawer
>>>> bottom. Good for about 185 lbs.
>>>>
>>>> I have used a similar load tester in the recent past. IIRC the group
>>>> here named it the LFAT.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8539981330/in/dateposted-public/
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm surprised with a shot like that, that she or whoever, didn't use
>>> something other than a camera while they had the opportunity. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> :-0 O. M. G.
>>
On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 09:03:52 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 14:46:36 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/12/2016 2:17 PM, OFWW wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
>>>>>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A
>>>>> fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost
>>>>> regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is
>>>>> coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight
>>>>> distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in
>>>>> alignment just amplify the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big
>>>>> drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that
>>>>> are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex
>>>>> casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I
>>>>> quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble
>>>>> closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed.
>>>>> The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load hauler.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is
>>>>> rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the
>>>>> mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries
>>>>> the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment
>>>>> problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
>>>> guys.
>>>>
>>>> I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
>>>> was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
>>>> favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
>>>
>>> I rebuilt our kitchen in our other home in 1989. With a stack of 3,
>>> about 32" wide by 24" deep drawers built specifically for pots and pans
>>> my wife questioned me about the 1/4" plywood bottom I was using.
>>>
>>
>> Was it Baltic birch? Not the three ply stuff?
>
>No, just common 1/4 cabinet quality birch plywood, probably 3 ply. I
>place my drawer bottoms in groves on all 4 sides. That gives the bottom
>significantly more support than the typical method of sliding the bottom in
>under the drawer back and fixing with a few screws or brads. Plus those
>particular drawer sides, front, and back were made from 3/4" thick
>lumbercore and the groves for the bottoms were 3/8" deep.
>
For some reason I thought the drawer bottom should be enclosed on all
four sides.
Is there a minimum height above the bottom for the groove? In solid
sided drawers I used 1/4" with a 1/4" x 1/4' groove when replacing
drawers in my grand kids chest of drawers. They had 1/2" sides.
It would seem to me that a 3/8 grove should have a 1/2" space between
it and the bottom of the sides, ends? Or is that excessive?
>And much more difficult to repair if the bottom fails and needs to be
>replaced. But I have almost always built drawers this way and none have
>failed, that I know of. Now I did build about 30-40 drawers for some
>bathroom cabinets for Swingman in 2011. His specs called for the bottoms
>to be slid in under the back of the drawer and fixed in place. Those
>drawers did however have 1/2 thick maple veneer plywood bottoms.
>
Were the drawers used as compartmental/bunk beds in an orphanage? :)
>
>
>>
>>> I put the drawer on the floor upside down and stood up on the drawer
>>> bottom. Good for about 185 lbs.
>>>
>>> I have used a similar load tester in the recent past. IIRC the group
>>> here named it the LFAT.
>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8539981330/in/dateposted-public/
>>>
>>
>> I'm surprised with a shot like that, that she or whoever, didn't use
>> something other than a camera while they had the opportunity. ;)
>>
>>
>
>:-0 O. M. G.
>
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there
> isn't and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a
> soft-close adapter.
>
> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>
> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
>
>
Have not used them however I saw those or something very similar to those
at a WW show about 3-4 years ago. A company specializing in cabinet door/
drawer hardware jigs, hardware, and clamps was selling a retro fit soft
close for drawers. FWIW there is also retro fit soft close door hardware
available.
I would venture to say that the soft close feature on most any drawer slide
is the weakest part of the slide. These add on units should at the very
least be the easiest to replace should one fail but more trouble to install
than simply a slide. IIRC the current slides are not full extension now.
Would a shorter full extension slide with built in soft close be giving up
too much if the drawer did not open completely?
On 2/12/2016 11:19 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/12/2016 10:57 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> ...
>
>> I thought the same thing as you, "the slides don't know how wide the
>> drawer is," and I believe I said that very thing to the rep. :-) He
>> said, after the drawer dimensions are wider than "square," the lateral
>> torque applied when opened or closed on one side or the other is what
>> gets them off track.
> ...
>
> Ah, that's not the failure mechanism I was envisioning...
>
> --
>
Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
On 2/12/2016 10:57 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/12/16 9:51 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/11/2016 11:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
>>> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
>>> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
>>> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
>>> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
>>> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there isn't
>>> and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a soft-close
>>> adapter.
>>>
>>> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
>>> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
>>> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
>>> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
>>
>> As others said, I've no experience but just a suggestion -- if this is a
>> paid enterprise as I gather it is, I'd get a pair in and try 'em and
>> make a decision on that basis...
>>
>> Or just ignore K-V and go with there's; the slides don't know how wide
>> the drawer is? In this case, you _might_ be making a follow-up some
>> years down the road if the drawers are at the extreme end of their
>> loadings but I'd guess the likelihood they'd work and last just fine...
>>
>
> I'd rather take the advice of a manufacture who actually admits their
> product doesn't work. How often does that happen!? :-)
> In this particular case, the rep told me it's not a matter that I "might
> be making a follow-up some years down the road." He assured we that the
> damping mechanism was getting off track after weeks, not months or years.
>
> I thought the same thing as you, "the slides don't know how wide the
> drawer is," and I believe I said that very thing to the rep. :-) He
> said, after the drawer dimensions are wider than "square," the lateral
> torque applied when opened or closed on one side or the other is what
> gets them off track.
>
> One of my selling points to the client was not having to worry about how
> they open and close the drawers or where them grab them. I'm not
> selling drawer slides, I'm selling my word. :-)
>
>
I can attest that wide drawers can have a lot of wobble back and forth
when the drawers are extended. This is with any side mount full
extension slide.
I replaced and added deep deeper drawers to our kitchen island about 5
years ago. They are soft close and apparently my alignment for one was
not perfect as over time one drawer does not soft close properly. It
still works smoothly and shuts but every now and again the soft close
seems to be defeated on one side or the other. The fix for that drawer
is to simply open and close it several time and it corrects itself. I
am sure that is not always going to be the case with each one that may
begin to have issues with the soft close.
BUT tolerances seem to be important with the slide engaging the built in
soft close mechanism. If the slides have a lot of wobble they could
over time become a bit too sloppy for the soft close be engaged when the
drawer is closed and reload when the drawer is opened.
On 2/13/2016 2:33 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 14:46:36 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/12/2016 2:17 PM, OFWW wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
>>>>>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in alignment just amplify the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed. The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load
> hauler.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
>>>> guys.
>>>>
>>>> I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
>>>> was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
>>>> favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
>>>
>>> I rebuilt our kitchen in our other home in 1989. With a stack of 3,
>>> about 32" wide by 24" deep drawers built specifically for pots and pans
>>> my wife questioned me about the 1/4" plywood bottom I was using.
>>>
>>
>> Was it Baltic birch? Not the three ply stuff?
>>
>>> I put the drawer on the floor upside down and stood up on the drawer
>>> bottom. Good for about 185 lbs.
>>>
>>> I have used a similar load tester in the recent past. IIRC the group
>>> here named it the LFAT.
>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8539981330/in/dateposted-public/
>>>
>>
>> I'm surprised with a shot like that, that she or whoever, didn't use
>> something other than a camera while they had the opportunity. ;)
>
> Is the drawer bottom supported on all four sides? The problem that
> usually happens with a too-light drawer bottom in the usual design where
> it slides in from the back and is only supported on three sides is that
> it bows and then slips out of the dadoes on the sides. Turning the
> drawr upside down and standing on it doesn't offer that failure mode.
>
Yes! the drawer bottom is supported on all four sides on the bottom. I
only turned it upside down so that when I stood on the bottom that it
did not bottom out against the floor. Upside down gave the plywood more
room to flex.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 14:46:36 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
> >On 2/12/2016 2:17 PM, OFWW wrote:
> >> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
> >>>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
> >>>
> >>> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in alignment just amplify the problem.
> >>>
> >>> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed. The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load
hauler.
> >>>
> >>> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
> >>>
> >>> Robert
> >>
> >> WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
> >> guys.
> >>
> >> I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
> >> was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
> >> favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
> >
> >I rebuilt our kitchen in our other home in 1989. With a stack of 3,
> >about 32" wide by 24" deep drawers built specifically for pots and pans
> >my wife questioned me about the 1/4" plywood bottom I was using.
> >
>
> Was it Baltic birch? Not the three ply stuff?
>
> >I put the drawer on the floor upside down and stood up on the drawer
> >bottom. Good for about 185 lbs.
> >
> >I have used a similar load tester in the recent past. IIRC the group
> >here named it the LFAT.
> >
> >https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8539981330/in/dateposted-public/
> >
>
> I'm surprised with a shot like that, that she or whoever, didn't use
> something other than a camera while they had the opportunity. ;)
Is the drawer bottom supported on all four sides? The problem that
usually happens with a too-light drawer bottom in the usual design where
it slides in from the back and is only supported on three sides is that
it bows and then slips out of the dadoes on the sides. Turning the
drawr upside down and standing on it doesn't offer that failure mode.
On 2/13/2016 11:44 AM, dpb wrote:
> It generally has not been the bottom pulling away from the rear side
> that is the failure observed in my experience but the thin ply itself
> just isn't stiff enough and so bows excessively w/ time. This is only
> exacerbated by the thinner material available now
Why I do this to the bottom of wider drawers (you can see the supports
in the bottom of the drawer next to the one in the foreground.
Just cut them from drawer side scraps.
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipPUW90ADqqWjOwdtpwKUbfBaVxo_bsnQ1SaP9kI/photo/AF1QipOhs5PgY7uCn44xin0QHQ75hcqbI98m88ais0zJ
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/12/2016 10:41 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/12/16 3:21 AM, Leon wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
>>> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
>>> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
>>> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
>>> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
>>> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there
>>> isn't and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a
>>> soft-close adapter.
>>>
>>> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
>>> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
>>> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
>>> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Have not used them however I saw those or something very similar to those
>> at a WW show about 3-4 years ago. A company specializing in cabinet
>> door/
>> drawer hardware jigs, hardware, and clamps was selling a retro fit soft
>> close for drawers. FWIW there is also retro fit soft close door hardware
>> available.
>>
>
> I've installed many add-on door dampers with great success. I put them
> on our 70's original on-sire built doors and haven't heard a "BAM!!"
> even since. :-)
>
>
>> I would venture to say that the soft close feature on most any drawer
>> slide
>> is the weakest part of the slide. These add on units should at the very
>> least be the easiest to replace should one fail but more trouble to
>> install
>> than simply a slide.
>
> You brought two things to mind.
> 1. It's actually a great selling point to the client to have separate
> slides and dampers because of the reason you mention. Also, if you
> watch the video, these thing install in seconds. I imagine, the first
> one will take 10 minutes and the rest, less than one.
>
>
>> IIRC the current slides are not full extension now.
>> Would a shorter full extension slide with built in soft close be
>> giving up
>> too much if the drawer did not open completely?
>>
>
> Two of my "selling points" were to give the soft-close and full
> extension so they could get to the backs of the drawers.
> The 8500s that K&V suggested to me are full extension, rated: 150lbs.
>
>
Understood but in many cases the drawer can be 2~3 inches shy of coming
out of the cabinet and still be very accessible.
For instance my desk drawer pictured below has a drawer that I used the
next size down in length compared to the drawer. Now if what you are
looking for is way short that would be different.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/24350396074/in/dateposted-public/
On 2/12/2016 12:07 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/12/2016 10:48 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I would love to have that spread sheet.
>
> Sorry, busy playing electrician this morning.
>
> Sent to your email addy, be aware the file is from Excel 2003,
Got you beat! 1-2-3, 1999. LOL
Yesterday I was struggling with an Excel 2010 spread sheet that I wanted
to send to our HOA attorney. Bryan said it is easy. And I agree once
you learn which command keys to use, other that that it is pretty much
the same as 123.
I laughed and said that I should send him the 123 spread sheet and let
them scratch their heads on that.
On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
=20
> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so=20
> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A fully loa=
ded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost regardless of c=
onstruction build. Not to say that the drawer box is coming apart, but it d=
oes flex along the slides due to uneven weight distribution when opened and=
closed, and small imperfections in alignment just amplify the problem.
Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big drawers,=
usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that are almost (=
if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex casserole pans, misc=
. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I quit using soft close on=
these drawers as the mechanism had trouble closing the loaded drawer to be=
gin with, but after awhile they failed. The soft close mechanism isn't mad=
e to be a load hauler.
For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is rated=
for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the mechanism =
itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries the 50# or so the=
se drawers wind up with easily with no alignment problems later. I reinfor=
ce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
Robert
On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:32:28 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>
>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more so
>> than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at all.
>
>I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in alignment just amplify the problem.
>
>Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven that are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans, Pyrex casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in these. I quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had trouble closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile they failed. The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load hauler.
>
>For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am done.
>
>Robert
WOW, Seems like there is a jewel somewhere in most every post from you
guys.
I too have cast iron pans and pots and I wouldn't cook without them. I
was wondering about their loads on shallow flat drawers along with my
favorite "cement mixer" and other things you mentioned.
I appreciate your thoughts on what to watch out for, as well as build
considerations.
Thanks.
On 2/12/2016 10:48 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I would love to have that spread sheet.
Sorry, busy playing electrician this morning.
Sent to your email addy, be aware the file is from Excel 2003, so I
purposely did NOT change the .xls format of the original, dated about
five years ago.
I use Office 365 now and can convert it easily if you prefer the .xlsx file.
Let me know.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/13/2016 2:33 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> Is the drawer bottom supported on all four sides? The problem that
> usually happens with a too-light drawer bottom in the usual design where
> it slides in from the back and is only supported on three sides is that
> it bows and then slips out of the dadoes on the sides.
I use either 1/4" crown staples, or appropriately sized screws and
washers, or both on wider drawers, into the bottom edge of the drawer
back to mitigate that greatly
If you need more, simple to screw a support across the same area.
Easily replaceable drawer bottoms can be thought of as a "feature", and
will stand the test of time if executed properly, and it's easy to do that.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 1:29:27 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
=20
> Those are the line I'm using.
> IIRC the difference between the 8500 and 8505 is full-extension, vs.
> over-extension.
> Both very, very strong.
You are correct, sir. Check it out:
http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/RobertLWitte/media/FuillDrawerExt02_zpsa6=
d07af0.jpg.html
That is a 30" drawer (plus or minus) that is about 12" deep. You can see t=
he 2x2 crossbar I glued/screwed in the middle. It did two things. =20
First, you can see the black screw through the side holding it in place. T=
his allowed me to push the sagging bottom back up, screw it to the 2x2, and=
glue it all together. It tightened up the drawer a whole lot, too.
Next, the "stuff" she put in the drawer could now sit on the crossbar inste=
ad of being on the thin bottom with no other support. Her glass casserole =
pans and some other Pyrex ware sit on the edge of the bottom next to the fr=
ont or back that is dadoed into the sides, then lay across the 2x2.
I sprayed it all out with enamel when I second coated the drawer fronts and=
it looked like original equipment.=20
Although that repair was several years ago, I still see that client for all=
kinds of maintenance. Last year she let me look around at her kitchen whe=
n I was there for some work, and that drawer is as stout as the day I put i=
t in. It is probably carrying about 60lbs of "stuff" now, and will easily =
extend all the way out with no binding or wobble.
I like that line of slides. I actually used them the first time many years=
ago to rehab a shop built (not mine) wide body file cabinet in an office. =
I positioned them differently, but they worked just as well. Good stuff.
Robert
On 02/11/2016 11:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there isn't
> and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a soft-close
> adapter.
>
> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>
> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
As others said, I've no experience but just a suggestion -- if this is a
paid enterprise as I gather it is, I'd get a pair in and try 'em and
make a decision on that basis...
Or just ignore K-V and go with there's; the slides don't know how wide
the drawer is? In this case, you _might_ be making a follow-up some
years down the road if the drawers are at the extreme end of their
loadings but I'd guess the likelihood they'd work and last just fine...
--
On 2/12/16 3:21 AM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
>> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
>> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
>> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
>> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
>> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there
>> isn't and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a
>> soft-close adapter.
>>
>> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
>> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
>> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
>> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
>>
>>
>
> Have not used them however I saw those or something very similar to those
> at a WW show about 3-4 years ago. A company specializing in cabinet door/
> drawer hardware jigs, hardware, and clamps was selling a retro fit soft
> close for drawers. FWIW there is also retro fit soft close door hardware
> available.
>
I've installed many add-on door dampers with great success. I put them
on our 70's original on-sire built doors and haven't heard a "BAM!!"
even since. :-)
> I would venture to say that the soft close feature on most any drawer slide
> is the weakest part of the slide. These add on units should at the very
> least be the easiest to replace should one fail but more trouble to install
> than simply a slide.
You brought two things to mind.
1. It's actually a great selling point to the client to have separate
slides and dampers because of the reason you mention. Also, if you
watch the video, these thing install in seconds. I imagine, the first
one will take 10 minutes and the rest, less than one.
> IIRC the current slides are not full extension now.
> Would a shorter full extension slide with built in soft close be giving up
> too much if the drawer did not open completely?
>
Two of my "selling points" were to give the soft-close and full
extension so they could get to the backs of the drawers.
The 8500s that K&V suggested to me are full extension, rated: 150lbs.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/12/16 9:04 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/11/2016 11:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
>> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them.
>
> No experience whatsoever with the add-ins so I'll not comment on that
> with pure conjecture.
>
> However, I've used KV's MUV under mount full extension soft close
> extensively, so I can give you some intel on that.
>
> Rare that an existing drawer will work with them, but you may get lucky.
>
> One critical dimensions is the _drawer side thickness_, which dictates
> the the side to side clearance. With a 1/2" thick drawer side you'll
> generally need a 5/8" clearance on either side.
>
> Also, there needs to be minimum 1/2" between the drawer bottom and the
> drawer side bottom. This forms the recess where the slide mounts. the
> recess must allow you to drill two holes in the drawer back for the
> built-in "tab clips" to hold the drawer down in the back, thusly:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods?noredirect=1#6250419425243692546
>
>
> Also, the drawer height needs to be RO minus 13/16" or greater, for most
> of their under mount MUV's.
>
I've been reading the spec sheet on the MuVHD's (heavy duty) so much
that I almost memorized those dimensions. :-) I was planning on going
back and taking detailed measurements to see if the under-mounts would
work.
But I found a lot of six pairs of NOS 8500s for 60 bucks shipped. With
the add-on dampers, it comes in just under what I quoted for the "Chevy"
package they chose.
> Basically, if I use under mounts, I just built the damn drawers to fit
> the slide requirements.
>
> AAMOF, I've made so many of them that I devised an Excel spreadsheet
> that calculates the drawer dimensions for MUV's based on RO's.
>
> Easy email, if you're interested.
>
> Again, depending upon the RO, the achille's heel for you may be the all
> critical drawer side thickness/RO issue.
>
I would love to have that spread sheet.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/12/16 9:51 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/11/2016 11:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
>> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
>> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
>> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
>> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
>> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there isn't
>> and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a soft-close
>> adapter.
>>
>> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
>> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
>> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
>> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
>
> As others said, I've no experience but just a suggestion -- if this is a
> paid enterprise as I gather it is, I'd get a pair in and try 'em and
> make a decision on that basis...
>
> Or just ignore K-V and go with there's; the slides don't know how wide
> the drawer is? In this case, you _might_ be making a follow-up some
> years down the road if the drawers are at the extreme end of their
> loadings but I'd guess the likelihood they'd work and last just fine...
>
I'd rather take the advice of a manufacture who actually admits their
product doesn't work. How often does that happen!? :-)
In this particular case, the rep told me it's not a matter that I "might
be making a follow-up some years down the road." He assured we that the
damping mechanism was getting off track after weeks, not months or years.
I thought the same thing as you, "the slides don't know how wide the
drawer is," and I believe I said that very thing to the rep. :-) He
said, after the drawer dimensions are wider than "square," the lateral
torque applied when opened or closed on one side or the other is what
gets them off track.
One of my selling points to the client was not having to worry about how
they open and close the drawers or where them grab them. I'm not
selling drawer slides, I'm selling my word. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/12/16 11:15 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/12/2016 10:41 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/12/16 3:21 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> So Knape & Vogt tells me they don't make a soft close slide for drawers
>>>> wider than 24" because their tests show that the mechanism ends up
>>>> failing from the torque, blah, blah, blah.
>>>> They recommend their 8500 series for the 32" wide drawers I'm fixing.
>>>> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't
>>>> know if
>>>> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them. In case there
>>>> isn't and I have to use the side-mounts, I'm looking at adding a
>>>> soft-close adapter.
>>>>
>>>> I promised the client soft-close so I'm looking at these soft-close
>>>> adapters. They look promising and very easy to install. I'm just
>>>> wondering if anyone in here has any experience with them.
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/U3aS2r6KC6k
>>>> http://www.titusplus.com/en/door-drawer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Have not used them however I saw those or something very similar to
>>> those
>>> at a WW show about 3-4 years ago. A company specializing in cabinet
>>> door/
>>> drawer hardware jigs, hardware, and clamps was selling a retro fit soft
>>> close for drawers. FWIW there is also retro fit soft close door
>>> hardware
>>> available.
>>>
>>
>> I've installed many add-on door dampers with great success. I put them
>> on our 70's original on-sire built doors and haven't heard a "BAM!!"
>> even since. :-)
>>
>>
>>> I would venture to say that the soft close feature on most any drawer
>>> slide
>>> is the weakest part of the slide. These add on units should at the very
>>> least be the easiest to replace should one fail but more trouble to
>>> install
>>> than simply a slide.
>>
>> You brought two things to mind.
>> 1. It's actually a great selling point to the client to have separate
>> slides and dampers because of the reason you mention. Also, if you
>> watch the video, these thing install in seconds. I imagine, the first
>> one will take 10 minutes and the rest, less than one.
>>
>>
>>> IIRC the current slides are not full extension now.
>>> Would a shorter full extension slide with built in soft close be
>>> giving up
>>> too much if the drawer did not open completely?
>>>
>>
>> Two of my "selling points" were to give the soft-close and full
>> extension so they could get to the backs of the drawers.
>> The 8500s that K&V suggested to me are full extension, rated: 150lbs.
>>
>>
> Understood but in many cases the drawer can be 2~3 inches shy of coming
> out of the cabinet and still be very accessible.
>
> For instance my desk drawer pictured below has a drawer that I used the
> next size down in length compared to the drawer. Now if what you are
> looking for is way short that would be different.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/24350396074/in/dateposted-public/
>
That may in fact be the results with these slides.
The slides are 22 and the drawers are 23-1/2 (OD).
With 3/4" ply construction, that's 22 on the inside.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
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---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 02/12/2016 10:57 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
...
> I thought the same thing as you, "the slides don't know how wide the
> drawer is," and I believe I said that very thing to the rep. :-) He
> said, after the drawer dimensions are wider than "square," the lateral
> torque applied when opened or closed on one side or the other is what
> gets them off track.
...
Ah, that's not the failure mechanism I was envisioning...
--
On 2/12/16 12:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>
>> Yeah, failure is more of a "wobble alignment engagement" issue more
>> so than the soft close part of the slide failing to operate at
>> all.
>
> I no longer retro fit soft close slides on heavy duty drawers. A
> fully loaded kitchen drawer will flex and move on the slides, almost
> regardless of construction build. Not to say that the drawer box is
> coming apart, but it does flex along the slides due to uneven weight
> distribution when opened and closed, and small imperfections in
> alignment just amplify the problem.
>
> Somewhere in the a kitchen cab rehab there will be a couple of big
> drawers, usually at the bottom of a bank or under a built in oven
> that are almost (if not) overloaded. Crock pots, cast iron pans,
> Pyrex casserole pans, misc. appliances (blenders, etc.) wind up in
> these. I quit using soft close on these drawers as the mechanism had
> trouble closing the loaded drawer to begin with, but after awhile
> they failed. The soft close mechanism isn't made to be a load
> hauler.
>
> For the heavy duty weight carrying drawers, I use the KV 8505. It is
> rated for 150# of weight, which obviously won't ever happen. But the
> mechanism itself is so heavy duty and well designed that it carries
> the 50# or so these drawers wind up with easily with no alignment
> problems later. I reinforce the drawer, add the slides and I am
> done.
>
> Robert
>
Those are the line I'm using.
IIRC the difference between the 8500 and 8505 is full-extension, vs.
over-extension.
Both very, very strong.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 02/13/2016 9:03 AM, Leon wrote:
...
> ... Now I did build about 30-40 drawers for some
> bathroom cabinets for Swingman in 2011. His specs called for the bottoms
> to be slid in under the back of the drawer and fixed in place. Those
> drawers did however have 1/2 thick maple veneer plywood bottoms.
...
That way is, of course, very typical furniture drawer construction and
in a lot of commercial cabinetry.
For heavier or larger kitchen drawers I don't think it matters terribly
if one uses at least 3/8" instead of 1/4" ply or the more costly and
labor intensive solid stock.
It generally has not been the bottom pulling away from the rear side
that is the failure observed in my experience but the thin ply itself
just isn't stiff enough and so bows excessively w/ time. This is only
exacerbated by the thinner material available now and by more than just
the relatively thickness as bending moments are ~bh^3 where the
thickness is the height, h. Hence, a 64th short on a quarter isn't just
7/8 ~ 90% as stiff but (7/8}^3 or only 2/3-rds!
--
On 02/13/2016 11:44 AM, dpb wrote:
...
> It generally has not been the bottom pulling away from the rear side
> that is the failure observed in my experience but the thin ply itself
> just isn't stiff enough and so bows excessively w/ time. This is only
> exacerbated by the thinner material available now and by more than just
> the relatively thickness as bending moments are ~bh^3 where the
> thickness is the height, h. Hence, a 64th short on a quarter isn't just
> 7/8 ~ 90% as stiff but (7/8}^3 or only 2/3-rds!
I knew that seemed too bad even as I sent it...it's
> 15/16 ~ 94% as stiff but (15/16}^3 or only approx 80% more closely.
Still, you lose more than just proportional which can be significant for
wide, deep drawers.
--
On 2/11/2016 11:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> They make an under-mount soft-close for wide drawers but I don't know if
> there's enough clearance on the underneath for them.
No experience whatsoever with the add-ins so I'll not comment on that
with pure conjecture.
However, I've used KV's MUV under mount full extension soft close
extensively, so I can give you some intel on that.
Rare that an existing drawer will work with them, but you may get lucky.
One critical dimensions is the _drawer side thickness_, which dictates
the the side to side clearance. With a 1/2" thick drawer side you'll
generally need a 5/8" clearance on either side.
Also, there needs to be minimum 1/2" between the drawer bottom and the
drawer side bottom. This forms the recess where the slide mounts. the
recess must allow you to drill two holes in the drawer back for the
built-in "tab clips" to hold the drawer down in the back, thusly:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods?noredirect=1#6250419425243692546
Also, the drawer height needs to be RO minus 13/16" or greater, for most
of their under mount MUV's.
Basically, if I use under mounts, I just built the damn drawers to fit
the slide requirements.
AAMOF, I've made so many of them that I devised an Excel spreadsheet
that calculates the drawer dimensions for MUV's based on RO's.
Easy email, if you're interested.
Again, depending upon the RO, the achille's heel for you may be the all
critical drawer side thickness/RO issue.
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