will the chip cavity in wood screws really not require a pilot hole
i am seeing them advertised as such but i hvae my doubts
i may order some but i do not have any to test and i think for my application
the chip cavity might not be enough to go pilot holeless
it is more of a nice to have feature than a must have feature for me
i think the real purpose of the chip cavity is a good idea to allow driving
into harder woods but have doubts about no pilot hole required
On 1/9/2016 11:30 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/8/2016 10:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> will the chip cavity in wood screws really not require a pilot hole
>>
>> i am seeing them advertised as such but i hvae my doubts
>>
>> i may order some but i do not have any to test and i think for my
>> application
>> the chip cavity might not be enough to go pilot holeless
>>
>> it is more of a nice to have feature than a must have feature for me
>>
>> i think the real purpose of the chip cavity is a good idea to allow
>> driving
>> into harder woods but have doubts about no pilot hole required
>>
>
> "Pocket hole screws" require no pilot hole.
>
True, of course, but also - remember to use the low profile threads in
hardwoods. The high profiles are only for soft woods.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 1/9/2016 12:08 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/9/16 11:50 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> On 1/9/2016 11:30 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2016 10:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>> will the chip cavity in wood screws really not require a pilot
>>>> hole
>>>>
>>>> i am seeing them advertised as such but i hvae my doubts
>>>>
>>>> i may order some but i do not have any to test and i think for
>>>> my application the chip cavity might not be enough to go pilot
>>>> holeless
>>>>
>>>> it is more of a nice to have feature than a must have feature for
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>> i think the real purpose of the chip cavity is a good idea to
>>>> allow driving into harder woods but have doubts about no pilot
>>>> hole required
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Pocket hole screws" require no pilot hole.
>>>
>>
>> True, of course, but also - remember to use the low profile threads
>> in hardwoods. The high profiles are only for soft woods.
>>
>
> I've pondered this "chicken or egg" concept for a while now.
> I've used the soft wood pocked screws on hardwood before and they hold
> just fine. because of the drill bit tip and thread cutting action, I
> don't get splitting in most cases. But try to use the fine thread
> screws in hardwood, and they pull out easier than a nail.
>
> So my theory is that the threads aren't small on hardwood screws because
> they have to be. The threads on softwood screws are big because they
> have to be.
>
> Now, I know you can get splitting near the end of a board in harder
> woods. But think about it which pairing is the real necessity. Since
> course threads will work most of the time in hardwood and fine threads
> will *never work in softwoods, I'm left to deduce that fine threads
> weren't invented because they were needed in hardwoods, but course
> threads were invented because they are required for soft woods.
>
> When pondering this one must keep in mind that the screw-to-softwood
> fastening technique is a relatively new one in woodworking. Those old,
> tapered, wood screws were for the most part used in hardwoods. For
> drawers and such that were made from pine and other softwoods, glue and
> joinery were most often used.
>
> (*Surely, using a long enough fine thread screw in softwood would end up
> working, if only for the fact that it is now imitating a nail. )
>
>
I have found that if I accidentally drive a softwood screw into a
hardwood it often breaks. IIRC the hard wood screws are a #6 or #7
screw, I think the soft wood screws are a #8.
On 1/8/16 10:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> will the chip cavity in wood screws really not require a pilot hole
>
> i am seeing them advertised as such but i hvae my doubts
>
> i may order some but i do not have any to test and i think for my application
> the chip cavity might not be enough to go pilot holeless
>
> it is more of a nice to have feature than a must have feature for me
>
> i think the real purpose of the chip cavity is a good idea to allow driving
> into harder woods but have doubts about no pilot hole required
>
I'm not sure what you mean by "chip cavity."
The chiseled point on modern screws it simply meant to shear the wood
fibers and help cut threads for the screws. It was never intended to
drill a pilot hole, collects "chips," nor eject any wood like a drill bit.
The main reason wood splits from a screw is because it wedges into the
wood, between the grain, which causes a split. It's not because the
wood is making room for the size of the screw, as there's plenty of room
in most woods for the wood fibers to compress to make room for most
screws. Many hardwoods are dense enough to benefit from a pre-drilled
hole, but it's not always necessary even in hardwoods.
I have, in fact, had occasions where a piece of hardwood split with the
use of a pilot hole but *not* when using a chisel-tipped, self-drilling
screw. The shearing of the wood fibers is the key to this.
For decades, I've used the old-timer carpenters' trip of blunting the
tip of a nail before driving it near the end of a board to keep the
board from splitting. This has the same effect of shearing the wood
fibers as it enters and travels through the wood, instead of wedging and
pushing the grain apart.
In most cases it works. In some cases, it's asking too much. It's the
same for modern, self-drilling screws... I rarely ever pre-drill a pilot
hole for them.
Please discover punctuation.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/9/16 11:50 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> On 1/9/2016 11:30 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/8/2016 10:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>> will the chip cavity in wood screws really not require a pilot
>>> hole
>>>
>>> i am seeing them advertised as such but i hvae my doubts
>>>
>>> i may order some but i do not have any to test and i think for
>>> my application the chip cavity might not be enough to go pilot
>>> holeless
>>>
>>> it is more of a nice to have feature than a must have feature for
>>> me
>>>
>>> i think the real purpose of the chip cavity is a good idea to
>>> allow driving into harder woods but have doubts about no pilot
>>> hole required
>>>
>>
>> "Pocket hole screws" require no pilot hole.
>>
>
> True, of course, but also - remember to use the low profile threads
> in hardwoods. The high profiles are only for soft woods.
>
I've pondered this "chicken or egg" concept for a while now.
I've used the soft wood pocked screws on hardwood before and they hold
just fine. because of the drill bit tip and thread cutting action, I
don't get splitting in most cases. But try to use the fine thread
screws in hardwood, and they pull out easier than a nail.
So my theory is that the threads aren't small on hardwood screws because
they have to be. The threads on softwood screws are big because they
have to be.
Now, I know you can get splitting near the end of a board in harder
woods. But think about it which pairing is the real necessity. Since
course threads will work most of the time in hardwood and fine threads
will *never work in softwoods, I'm left to deduce that fine threads
weren't invented because they were needed in hardwoods, but course
threads were invented because they are required for soft woods.
When pondering this one must keep in mind that the screw-to-softwood
fastening technique is a relatively new one in woodworking. Those old,
tapered, wood screws were for the most part used in hardwoods. For
drawers and such that were made from pine and other softwoods, glue and
joinery were most often used.
(*Surely, using a long enough fine thread screw in softwood would end up
working, if only for the fact that it is now imitating a nail. )
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/9/16 12:17 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/9/2016 12:08 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/9/16 11:50 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> On 1/9/2016 11:30 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2016 10:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>> will the chip cavity in wood screws really not require a pilot
>>>>> hole
>>>>>
>>>>> i am seeing them advertised as such but i hvae my doubts
>>>>>
>>>>> i may order some but i do not have any to test and i think for
>>>>> my application the chip cavity might not be enough to go pilot
>>>>> holeless
>>>>>
>>>>> it is more of a nice to have feature than a must have feature for
>>>>> me
>>>>>
>>>>> i think the real purpose of the chip cavity is a good idea to
>>>>> allow driving into harder woods but have doubts about no pilot
>>>>> hole required
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Pocket hole screws" require no pilot hole.
>>>>
>>>
>>> True, of course, but also - remember to use the low profile threads
>>> in hardwoods. The high profiles are only for soft woods.
>>>
>>
>> I've pondered this "chicken or egg" concept for a while now.
>> I've used the soft wood pocked screws on hardwood before and they hold
>> just fine. because of the drill bit tip and thread cutting action, I
>> don't get splitting in most cases. But try to use the fine thread
>> screws in hardwood, and they pull out easier than a nail.
>>
>> So my theory is that the threads aren't small on hardwood screws because
>> they have to be. The threads on softwood screws are big because they
>> have to be.
>>
>> Now, I know you can get splitting near the end of a board in harder
>> woods. But think about it which pairing is the real necessity. Since
>> course threads will work most of the time in hardwood and fine threads
>> will *never work in softwoods, I'm left to deduce that fine threads
>> weren't invented because they were needed in hardwoods, but course
>> threads were invented because they are required for soft woods.
>>
>> When pondering this one must keep in mind that the screw-to-softwood
>> fastening technique is a relatively new one in woodworking. Those old,
>> tapered, wood screws were for the most part used in hardwoods. For
>> drawers and such that were made from pine and other softwoods, glue and
>> joinery were most often used.
>>
>> (*Surely, using a long enough fine thread screw in softwood would end up
>> working, if only for the fact that it is now imitating a nail. )
>>
>>
>
>
> I have found that if I accidentally drive a softwood screw into a
> hardwood it often breaks. IIRC the hard wood screws are a #6 or #7
> screw, I think the soft wood screws are a #8.
True on all accounts.
I'm just glad people smarter than me worked all this out for us so I
don't have to from trial and error.... mostly error. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 21:44:24 -0600
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean by "chip cavity."
that was the term used to describe the cavity at the screw tip
it runs up the length of the tip toward the head
think of a pie slice extruded out of the screw shaft to the center of the
screw shaft and extending from the tip to 1/4 way up or so
described as a cavity to allow the screw tip to seat better into hard woods
> The chiseled point on modern screws it simply meant to shear the wood
not sure what you mean by chiseled point
On 1/9/16 10:10 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 21:44:24 -0600
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure what you mean by "chip cavity."
>
> that was the term used to describe the cavity at the screw tip
>
> it runs up the length of the tip toward the head
> think of a pie slice extruded out of the screw shaft to the center of the
> screw shaft and extending from the tip to 1/4 way up or so
>
> described as a cavity to allow the screw tip to seat better into hard woods
>
>
>> The chiseled point on modern screws it simply meant to shear the wood
>
> not sure what you mean by chiseled point
>
It's clear you don't know what anyone means by "punctuation."
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/8/2016 10:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> will the chip cavity in wood screws really not require a pilot hole
>
> i am seeing them advertised as such but i hvae my doubts
>
> i may order some but i do not have any to test and i think for my application
> the chip cavity might not be enough to go pilot holeless
>
> it is more of a nice to have feature than a must have feature for me
>
> i think the real purpose of the chip cavity is a good idea to allow driving
> into harder woods but have doubts about no pilot hole required
>
"Pocket hole screws" require no pilot hole.