English Teacher wrote:
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
There are some trolls from rec.woodworking that are posting
these kind of religious issues to various "news:comp.*"
newsgroups.
See:
http://www.google.com/groups?as_q=rec.woodworking&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_ugroup=comp.*&lr=&num=50&hl=en
(The above URL should be on one line with no spaces).
If the OP would search rec.woodworking, he/she would already
find the answers.
--
Thomas Matthews
C++ newsgroup welcome message:
http://www.slack.net/~shiva/welcome.txt
C++ Faq: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite
C Faq: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/c-faq/top.html
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ faq:
http://www.raos.demon.uk/acllc-c++/faq.html
Other sites:
http://www.josuttis.com -- C++ STL Library book
CBFalconer wrote:
> Wouter Lievens wrote:
>
>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>
>>>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>
>>C++
>
>
> Ada
>
ONly if you intend working for the US government, or major contractors.
Others wouldn't use it on a bet. It's a language designed by a
committee....
Wouter Lievens wrote:
> "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>
>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
> C++
C
Bill Tallman
--
Registered Linux User: #221586
Mdk-9.0 and IceWM
Gkrellm still watches over me...
Robert Galloway wrote:
> Depends on what you want to do with it. For me it would be
> C++ today. Terrible shame that Pascal didn't survive.
Pascal is alive and well and living (in mutant form) as Delphi. And
Open Pascal. And... others :>
--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"
Roger Halstead wrote:
> On 21 Oct 2003 15:18:20 +0200, Christoph Breitkopf
> <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
>>Well, I prefer T. Also, with too much caffeine, I have trouble handholding
>>lenses at slower speeds.
>
> Ahhh T has more caffeine than coffee.
It's also loaded up with tanin, which is used to make leather. Wonder
what it does to stomach linings... :>
--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"
"Titus Groans" <[email protected]> wrote in message <news:qdBOb.93911$8H.137323@attbi_s03>...
> C# or Java, but why are you asking us?
What are you babbling about? Finalizers are not guaranteed to run
in either language, so RAII techniques cannot be used. Therefore,
both languages are utterly useless except for cheesy web animations
and other insignificant demo-ware.
--
Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> L. Ron Dullard <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
"Charlie Mraz" <[email protected]> wrote in message <news:[email protected]>...
> > > >"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> > > >news:[email protected]...
> > > >> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> > > >>
> > > >> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> > > >
> > > >C++
> > > >
>
> I vote for regular old C (the non++ version). You can d/l a free compiler
> from www.htsoft.com called Pacific C. When you get good at that it will be
> easy to do C++ or Java, which use most of the same conventions, but with the
> added complexity of the whole object-oriented thing. Of course PASCAL was
> actually written to teach programming, but is going out-of-style. Delphi is
> PASCAL-based, though.
If you learn C first, a number of habits may have to be unlearned
in order to become a competent C++ or Java programmer later.
--
Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> DC8s in Spaace: <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:39:40 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
Fischer) wrote:
>Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>
>>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>
>>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>
>>C++
>
>Useful for what?
Quote: "useful language to learn"
A.L.
(Followups to comp.programming only.)
[email protected] (English Teacher) wrote:
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
It depends what you want to do. Each of these languages (arguably) have
thier niche.
What do you want to do? I can't think of a programming task that
encompasses woodwork, photography technique, 35mm cameras and computer
theory.
Unless you want to build a robot with a built in 35mm camera that knows
about composition and light levels that will also construct a turing
machine from wood.
Bill, I'd use C++.
--
The address in the reply to header is correct, but I'll
read it quicker if you drop the word "usenet".
Andrzej Lewandowski <alewando_tego_nie@oddpost_tego_tez_nie.com> writes:
[email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> >Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef
> >
> >>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >>>
> >>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> >>
> >>C++
> >
> >Useful for what?
>
> Quote: "useful language to learn"
If you're not going to use it for something, why bother to
"learn" it?
Willem <[email protected]> writes:
> Kent wrote:
> ) Not one having to do with knowing spit about programming,
> ) obviously. Were you sleeping the day "Turing Complete
> ) Language" was whispered in class?
>
> May I jump in with a mention of the (Turing complete) language 'Ook' ?
No, you may not. 8-)
"Ook" is object-oriented K, a very advanced form of C?
English Teacher wrote:
>
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
What are you trying to *do* with the computer language???
Different languages are better for different things...
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Depends on what you want to do with it. For me it would be
C++ today. Terrible shame that Pascal didn't survive.
rhg
Jerry Nash wrote:
> On 20 Oct 2003 23:55:11 -0700, English Teacher <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>
>>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
>
> Python
>
pH wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:26:45 GMT, "David Binkowski" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Now that I think of it, probably Z80 assembler. Until the last
>>decade or so (maybe it still is !!!) the Space Shuttle used old
>>Z80 processors with 8 bit software... Would you upgrade
>>to anything newer? I can't go a day without rebooting my
>>Windows desktop at work...
>
>
> You don't think that has a little more to do with the code, than the
> language?
>
>
>>Hmmmm, yes. Definitely Z80 assembler is THE most
>>important and marketable language today !!!
>
>
> I'd go so far as to agree that it's the most _useful_, in a strictly generic
> sense.
>
> Jeff
>
> http://www.jefftturner.com
>
>
I personally like Kodak Supra 100. But Kodak in it;s infinite wisdom,
discontinued it and suggests Portra as a replacement and twice the cost.
Bob
Wouter Lievens wrote:
>
> "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >
> > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
> C++
Ada
--
Chuck F ([email protected]) ([email protected])
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
Alan Balmer wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:27:36 +0100, "Wouter Lievens"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >>
> >> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> >
> >C++
> >
> I can't find the original post, but surely one must first ask the
> question "Most useful for what?"
>
> --
> Al Balmer
> Balmer Consulting
> [email protected]
I've come to the conclusion that the language used by all programmers
is ---- profanity!
The best programming quote I know I heard from an IBM research chemist
working on a terminal connected to a 360 somewhere out in IBM land.
He hit enter, waited a while, got a response and then said,
"Damn computer keeps doing what I TELL it to do instead of what I WANT it to
do!"
ARM
Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:39:40 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
>Fischer) wrote:
>
>>Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>>
>>>>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>>
>>>>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>>>
>>>C++
>>>
>>Useful for what?
>>
>
>
>Quote: "useful language to learn"
>
>A.L.
>
I spent 22 years programming in now-mostly-obsolete languages before
I retired. To just have a language around that I could write itty-bitty
applications in, I picked Java. Because it's free. To really plumb the
depths of the thing would be a major intellectual effort, but I didn't want
to plumb the depths, I wanted a cheap tool to make shallow use of.
The original poster's mileage may vary. A whole lot.
"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
C++
In rec.woodworking
Bob Haar <[email protected]> wrote:
>... but I would not begin to suggest that there is a single
>language that is best to use.
Exactly
>Is some one wants to learn programming, I would suggest several languages:
>
> Java - modern OO languages are the way to go and are harder to learn if
> you get stuck in the mindset of procedural languages first
> assembler (preferably for a micro) - helps you understand how computers
> work
> C - a procedural language for historical sake
> COBOL - a dinosaur but there are always jobs
> PERL - string manipulation at its best
> UNIX shell (any variety) - the simple elegance is revealing
I think one could do worse than learning these languages, it all depends on
what you plan on doing with your programming. I think these languages say
something about your history and experience, as mine would say things about
me.
I've made a great living programming for over 20 years and I don't know
Cobol, Perl and only tiny bits of Java and UNIX shell. I'm primarily an
embeddded systems programmer which usually means using C and lately C++.
In order of use:
C++
C
Visual BASIC
Visual C++ (meaning the Doc/View architecture type Microsoft programming)
Assembler (80x86, 63XXX, HC1X, various PIC processors)
>I would avoid any of the proprietary languages, especially the near-standard
>Microsoft variations. There is no reason to learn bad habits that you have
>to un-do later.
You assume that you have to undo the bad habits. I haven't had to yet and
Microsoft is 10X more prolific now then when I learned Visual C++ 1.0.
The important thing is, don't you love programming? I sure do.
[rec.* trimmed from follow-ups. They really must be sick of this thread by
now.]
Ray Fischer wrote:
> Andrzej Lewandowski <alewando_tego_nie@oddpost_tego_tez_nie.com> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>>>Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>
>>>>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>>>
>>>>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>>>
>>>>C++
>>>
>>>Useful for what?
>>
>>Quote: "useful language to learn"
>
> A hammer is a useful tool.
>
> Unless you need to cut a 2x4 in half.
Any problem can be solved by adding another level of indirection. Take your
hammer, and the 2x4, to the nearest carpentry shop. Enter. Hold your hammer
in a prominent position. Swing it, casually but /not/ threateningly (let's
stay legal here). Then say to the carpenter, "I have a fine piece of 2x4
here which needs to be cut exactly in half. Please perform this small task
for me, at no charge." Grin at him. Wary of your expression, and eying your
hammer nervously, the carpenter complies.
After carrying out this procedure, you will have a nicely-sawn pair of 2x4s,
and a compliant carpenter who will be the more easily cowed next time for
having given in this time.
*And* you still have your hammer!
--
Richard Heathfield : [email protected]
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton
Brian wrote:
>
> You know, you guys claim to be so smart but yet none of you can figure
> out how to stop crossposting this into irrelevant newsgroups. What the
> hell does this have to do with woodworking, or photography?
they also program in the wrong language for the target computer,
and then load the executable into a non compatible machine.
In comp.programming
"Old Enough to Know Better" <[email protected]> wrote:
>a wise man once said
>When all you have is a hammer, everthing looks like a nail.
Another one said, you have to work with what you got.
Ray Fischer wrote:
> Heard that the COBOL committee was looking at object COBOL.
>
> The mind reels.
Wait 'til you hear the name:
POST-INCREMENT-COBOL-BY-ONE
--
|_ CJSonnack <[email protected]> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:46:42 -0800, Anthony Buckland
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I spent 22 years programming in now-mostly-obsolete languages before
>I retired. To just have a language around that I could write itty-bitty
>applications in, I picked Java. Because it's free. To really plumb the
>depths of the thing would be a major intellectual effort, but I didn't want
>to plumb the depths, I wanted a cheap tool to make shallow use of.
>The original poster's mileage may vary. A whole lot.
I would say that Python is quite good as a first language and for
writing small applications. It is as free as Java...
A.L.
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:30:44 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
Fischer) wrote:
>Andrzej Lewandowski <alewando_tego_nie@oddpost_tego_tez_nie.com> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>>>Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>
>>>>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>>>
>>>>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>>>
>>>>C++
>>>
>>>Useful for what?
>>
>>Quote: "useful language to learn"
>
>A hammer is a useful tool.
>
>Unless you need to cut a 2x4 in half.
The hammer will do that too. Of course the end result won't be very
neat and you will be tired out from using it... sorta sounds like
some languages, doesn't it?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>news:[email protected]...
>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>
>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
Out of those you just mentioned, I would have to weigh in on C++,
since the training you get in C++ can easily be transfered to at least
three of the other languages you mentioned without much effort.
HOWEVER, I feel the most useful language you could learn for
programming would be Perl.
Chris Mooney
[email protected] (English Teacher) wrote
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
C++, VB, and Java are all huge and widely supported around the world.
However, C++ and regular VB are dead-end technologies. Delphi and old
C are completely dead! Java will continue to grow. And the .net
platform is growing. For available jobs now, there are plenty for C++,
Java, and VB, but VB and C++ markets are shrinking. Java is not. .Net
jobs will become widely available in the next year or 2, catching up
to Java and replacing Vb and C++. If you are going to choose one
language to master, pick Java, C#, or VB.net.
On 20 Oct 2003 23:55:11 -0700, [email protected]
(English Teacher) wrote:
>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
Useful for what?
Each of those has a place. The easiest being Delphi (a visual Pascal)
while C is probably the most difficult for the beginner to understand.
However when you say the most useful, you are going to have to be a
bit more specific.
Also what is the original group to which you posted so I don't have to
reply to 5 groups.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:27:36 +0100, "Wouter Lievens"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>news:[email protected]...
>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>
>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
>C++
>
I can't find the original post, but surely one must first ask the
question "Most useful for what?"
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
[email protected]
[email protected] (English Teacher) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
That would depend on whether it's for woodworking or 35mm camera equipment.
"David Binkowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So your vote is COBOL, right ?
>
> --
> The software said it ran under Windows 98/NT/2000, or better.
> So I installed it on Linux...
> "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > [email protected] (English Teacher) writes:
> > >What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> > >Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> >
> > One that incorporates as much of an algebraic theory of control flow
> > structures within by embedding the greatest degree of equivalences
> > between them. This is especially important for the deployment of
> > practical algebraic tools and methods for mathematical verification,
> > transformation and optimization.
> >
> > Both C and C++ have the required degree of fluidity in their control
> > flow structures. In contrast, things tends to be frozen in place in
> > Java and BASIC dialects, thus increasingly requiring algebraic steps in
> > control flow structure manipulations and computations to go outside the
> > language during intermediate steps.
> >
> > Also important is to minimize the degree of built-in'edness, which
> > really straightjackets everything at the outset. This is directly tied
> > to the issue of fluidity: more built-in'edness tends to be symptomatic
> > of lesser fluidity.
> >
> > This, too, favors a C/C++ approach, with suitable libraries (if need
> > be) to handle the native features that might be incorporated in the
> > other languages. C++ has the best advantage in terms of its ability
> > (when used right) for nearly seamless extension by quasi-native add-ons.
> >
> > Ironically, strictures placed on some of the control flow structures --
> > which greatly impedes the enterprise of algebraic mathematical
> > verification, transformation and optimization, are often placed in the
> > name of "reliability" (particularly, that put on the "for" loop in
> > some of these languages, Pascal was the worst).
> >
> > If the BASIC dialects were to incorporate more of the C-like syntax,
> they'd
> > have the advantage over C. C++, however, would probably still have the
> > advantage over both, since you can bring in the features native to BASIC
> > via appropriate class definitions.
> >
> > The main disadvantage of C++ is its overly-bureaucratic design. It's
> > almost as if the language was conceived by a committee of suit-wearing
> > company men at some large corporation or something, heavily imbued
> > in the "latest-buzz" and "everything is a programme" mindset of
> companyese.
>
>
shhh
On 2004/1/19 2:14 AM, "Ray Fischer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Charon the lurker <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected]
>>> Charles Douglas Wehner <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> CBFalconer <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:<[email protected]>...
>>>>
>>>> I made an extensive study of Forth. I developed the most advanced
>>>> version, for a host of purposes including multi-processor
>>> [...]
>>> Get a life.
>>
>> It's a programmer, they have no life.
>
> I work as a professional software engineer for a well-known software
> company. I have a life. Anyone who makes "an extensive study of
> Forth" doesn't.
I have been following this thread with amusement. It is way OT for the WRECK
but it is exactly the same argument that crops up periodically over hand
tools vs. power tools. And the answer is just about the same - programming
languages are tools and you should use the one that is best suited for the
task at hand. And part of that is what you have available and are skilled
with. In order to pick a language to learn, you have to know what it will be
used for and the background of the person asking the question.
I am also a computer professional( and would stack my credentials against
anyone else here, but I would not begin to suggest that there is a single
language that is best to use. I have taught engineers using PL/1, physicists
using BASIC and FORTRAN, business CIS majors using COBOL, mathematicians
using APL - and bits of LISP, SNOBOL, assembler and a number of proprietary
languages.
Is some one wants to learn programming, I would suggest several languages:
Java - modern OO languages are the way to go and are harder to learn if
you get stuck in the mindset of procedural languages first
assembler (preferably for a micro) - helps you understand how computers
work
C - a procedural language for historical sake
COBOL - a dinosaur but there are always jobs
PERL - string manipulation at its best
UNIX shell (any variety) - the simple elegance is revealing
I would avoid any of the proprietary languages, especially the near-standard
Microsoft variations. There is no reason to learn bad habits that you have
to un-do later.
Charles Douglas Wehner wrote:
> CBFalconer <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Wouter Lievens wrote:
>>
>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>>
>>>>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>>
>>>C++
>>
>>Ada
>
>
> Ada is not AMONG!
>
> Nor is FORTH.
>
> I made an extensive study of Forth. I developed the most advanced
> version, for a host of purposes including multi-processor
> (supercomputer), multitasking, cross-compiling &c. Then the British
> government put on its war-paint in order to rob the world of oil. They
> demolished my home and possessions as "practice" for bestiality. Many
> innocent people died. I became a refugee.
>
> However, from my experience I would ALWAYS recommend a study of Forth
> as a GROUNDING in computer science.
>
> I myself refuse to call it a LANGUAGE.
>
> It is the ONLY official study of SUBROUTINES. That is to say, since
> the earliest mud-huts houses have been built of COMPONENTS. And so it
> will be with computer programs. Programs are built out of ROUTINES,
> which are built from SUBROUTINES and so on .... down to the level of
> the tiniest snippets of code. These elements are like the bricks, the
> roof-tiles, the window-glass and door- and window-frames in the
> construction industry.
>
> It all boils down to a KERNEL that has to be coded in machine code.
> That kernel is like the P-CODE of Dr. Niklaus Wirth's PASCAL. It is
> also like the core routines of C, C++ and all the others quoted.
> Without a kernel adapted to each processor, a language is not
> portable.
>
> Then come the SYNTAX and the SEMANTICS. To be a language, in my
> definition, the system must resequence human thought into a form that
> a machine understands. So when we think of language, we think of
> HUMANS.
>
> Most CPUs require POSTFIX operators. First you load a register, then
> maybe another, and THEN you can operate.
>
> So in machine code on the Pentium, you MOV EAX,2 MOV EBX,3 and MUL
> EBX. This gives 2 times 3.
>
> Grab a parameter. Grab the other (if any). Operate.
>
> In Forth, 2 3 * .
>
> In Human, MULTIPLY 2 BY 3. The word "multiply" - the operator - is
> PREFIX. The "by" is an expletive (a "filler-word"), or a separator
> between the parameters 2 and 3.
>
> In Basic, PRINT 2 * 3. This has a PREFIX "print" and a "MIDFIX"
> multiply.
> Basic - like so much human thought - is what I call "MIXFIX", a
> mixture.
>
> I wrote a syntax interpreter to interpret ANY language into the
> machine-sequence (into Forth postfix operation). I was making great
> progress at turning Forth into the UNIVERSAL P-CODE for ALL languages.
> Then the British government stopped me.
>
> The quirks of the many languages can be seen to be the quirks of the
> syntax interpretation. They are also the quirks of the SEMANTICS - the
> reserved words that the language designer has chosen. Those quirks are
> LANGUAGE-SPECIFIC, and are not based upon any fundamentals of computer
> science. That is to say, the language designer decides what it is that
> he wants to write in order to achieve a given result. Then the
> language designer writes an interpreter to resequence those words.
>
> Memorising the syntax and semantics of a language may make you an
> expert on that language - but then along comes a new language, and you
> have to begin again.
>
> Learning the techniques of syntax interpretation teaches you
> EVERYTHING about the underlying rules.
>
> Let "no-more-data", or "carriage-return" have priority 0.
> Let PRINT have priority 1.
> Let + have priority 2.
> Let * have priority 3.
> We stack the literals on the arithmetic stack.
>
> So we have PRINT(1) literal2 *(3) literal3 (0)
>
> The machine reads PRINT, and sees a 1. It reads a literal, which it
> stacks. It reads a "*" and sees 3 (a rise). It reads a literal, which
> it stacks. It reads the end-of-line and sees a 0. This is a DROP from
> all the way back, so it RUNS the code * and RUNS the code PRINT. The
> result is 2 3 * PRINT as in Forth.
>
> This is an INTERPRETED language.
>
> It could also generate the machine-code CALL LITERAL(2): CALL
> LITERAL(3): CALL *: CALL PRINT and store it. That would be a COMPILING
> language.
>
> So you see, the ONLY real difference between the many and various
> languages is in the choice of words like "*" (which could be reserved
> as "MULT" or similar), and their "magic-number" priorities. These
> things are chosen by the language designer according to his whim.
>
> Ada is just like Forth, but with a little syntax interpretation to
> help with such things as the math. I made a study of Ada, along with
> Fortran, Algol, Cobol, Occam, C, C++ and many others. The main purpose
> of Ada is that by having a RIGID syntax it prevents programmers from
> writing differently each according to his own "style". So military
> programs will all look alike, and a change of programming staff should
> not alter the "look-and-feel" of the source.
>
> Charles Douglas Wehner
I just LOVE what you've DONE with CAPITALIZATION, and ESPECIALLY your
fervent HATRED of the BRITISH GOVERNMENT. Thanks for keeping things
TOPICAL. Your mention of "bestiality" was particularly ENLIGHTENING.
Are you related to EGN by any CHANCE?
Hi Dabhar
> want to create mostly
> freeware/shareware utility programs
For client apps, I use and recommend Java.
Cross-platforming works if you're diligent.
For browser-ui apps, I use and recommend
perl/php.
> would also like to be able to
> create a chat room or discussion group type of thing
For that, I'd start with an open-source product,
use it, tweak it, expand it. I use and recommend
phpBB. There are other excellent choices.
Most important: just dive in. Start dog-paddling.
Learn what you need when you need it. Your
key programming skills IMO are diligent organization
and clean concise task breakdown. The language
is just mopup.
-- stan
who's programmed in way too many languages
and enjoyed parts of 'em all
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Charles Douglas Wehner <[email protected]> wrote:
> >CBFalconer <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >> Wouter Lievens wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> >> > news:[email protected]...
> >> > > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >> > >
> >> > > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> >> >
> >> > C++
> >>
> >> Ada
> >
> >Ada is not AMONG!
> >
> >Nor is FORTH.
> >
> >I made an extensive study of Forth. I developed the most advanced
> >version, for a host of purposes including multi-processor
> [...]
>
> >Ada is just like Forth, but with a little syntax interpretation to
> >help with such things as the math. I made a study of Ada, along with
>
> Get a life.
It's a programmer, they have no life. A programmer cross-posting to a
woodworking group doesn't deserve one <g>.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:30:44 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
> Fischer) wrote:
>
> >Andrzej Lewandowski <alewando_tego_nie@oddpost_tego_tez_nie.com> wrote:
> >> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> >>>Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> >
> >>>>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> >>>>
> >>>>C++
> >>>
> >>>Useful for what?
> >>
> >>Quote: "useful language to learn"
> >
> >A hammer is a useful tool.
> >
> >Unless you need to cut a 2x4 in half.
>
> The hammer will do that too. Of course the end result won't be very
> neat and you will be tired out from using it...
That's the hard way. The simple way is to use the hammer, with an
auxiliary tool, such as a chisel and get it done fairly cleanly,
albeit not as quickly as a saw.
--
Randy Howard
2reply remove FOOBAR
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Ray Fischer wrote:
>
> > Heard that the COBOL committee was looking at object COBOL.
> >
> > The mind reels.
>
> Wait 'til you hear the name:
>
> POST-INCREMENT-COBOL-BY-ONE
I heard that as a joke 10 years ago or so as "ADD ONE TO COBOL"
--
Randy Howard
2reply remove FOOBAR
"Alan Browne" <"Alan Browne"@videotron.canospam> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> English Teacher wrote:
>
> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >
> > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
>
> TrollMasher++ 3.0
>
not here
"Randy Howard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:30:44 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
> > Fischer) wrote:
> >
> > >Andrzej Lewandowski <alewando_tego_nie@oddpost_tego_tez_nie.com>
wrote:
> > >> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> > >>>Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in
bericht
> > >
> > >>>>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>C++
> > >>>
> > >>>Useful for what?
> > >>
> > >>Quote: "useful language to learn"
> > >
> > >A hammer is a useful tool.
> > >
> > >Unless you need to cut a 2x4 in half.
> >
> > The hammer will do that too. Of course the end result won't be very
> > neat and you will be tired out from using it...
>
> That's the hard way. The simple way is to use the hammer, with an
> auxiliary tool, such as a chisel and get it done fairly cleanly,
> albeit not as quickly as a saw.
>
a wise man once said
When all you have is a hammer, everthing looks like a nail.
> --
> Randy Howard
> 2reply remove FOOBAR
>
"rj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:h%mRb.157451$I06.1607486@attbi_s01...
> The only 2 things that ever came out of Berkeley were LSD and UNIX - -
> somehow I think they're related.
And the Barb.....Don't forget the Berkeley Barb.......
Ron Hunter <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> CBFalconer wrote:
>
>> Wouter Lievens wrote:
>>
>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>>
>>>>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>>
>>>C++
>>
>>
>> Ada
>>
> ONly if you intend working for the US government, or major contractors.
> Others wouldn't use it on a bet. It's a language designed by a
> committee....
>
I see someone just opened a can of flaim bate.
Hey Ron Hunter, when did you learn Ada? What was your last Ada project?
I am looking for some sense of the authority used as the foundation for
your opinion.
For your information, Ada was not designed by any more or a committee
than was C, C++, or Java. The fundamental requirements for Ada were
produced by a committee. The language was produced by a small team of
dedicated and brilliant people.
I hope I never use any of your code if you think requirements are the
same as design. Do you think that code is also the same as requirements?
If so, then I guess we don't need any of those nasty programmers. We just
need to specify requirements and the product is complete.
Jim Rogers
Samuel Walters <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>| CBFalconer said |
>> Wouter Lievens wrote:
>>> "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>> > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>> C++
>> Ada
> Python
Monty :)
(Followups set: I'm sure that the guys in rec.woodworking and rec.photo.*
are going to be /thrilled/ that this has been crossposted to them.)
Ian Woods
If I said assembler code, would it kill this thread? (yes, it is extremely
useful but you have to know what you're doing)
"Programmer Dude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ray Fischer wrote:
>
> > Heard that the COBOL committee was looking at object COBOL.
> >
> > The mind reels.
>
> Wait 'til you hear the name:
>
> POST-INCREMENT-COBOL-BY-ONE
>
> --
> |_ CJSonnack <[email protected]> _____________| How's my programming? |
> |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
> |_____________________________________________|_______________________|
So your vote is COBOL, right ?
--
The software said it ran under Windows 98/NT/2000, or better.
So I installed it on Linux...
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (English Teacher) writes:
> >What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
> One that incorporates as much of an algebraic theory of control flow
> structures within by embedding the greatest degree of equivalences
> between them. This is especially important for the deployment of
> practical algebraic tools and methods for mathematical verification,
> transformation and optimization.
>
> Both C and C++ have the required degree of fluidity in their control
> flow structures. In contrast, things tends to be frozen in place in
> Java and BASIC dialects, thus increasingly requiring algebraic steps in
> control flow structure manipulations and computations to go outside the
> language during intermediate steps.
>
> Also important is to minimize the degree of built-in'edness, which
> really straightjackets everything at the outset. This is directly tied
> to the issue of fluidity: more built-in'edness tends to be symptomatic
> of lesser fluidity.
>
> This, too, favors a C/C++ approach, with suitable libraries (if need
> be) to handle the native features that might be incorporated in the
> other languages. C++ has the best advantage in terms of its ability
> (when used right) for nearly seamless extension by quasi-native add-ons.
>
> Ironically, strictures placed on some of the control flow structures --
> which greatly impedes the enterprise of algebraic mathematical
> verification, transformation and optimization, are often placed in the
> name of "reliability" (particularly, that put on the "for" loop in
> some of these languages, Pascal was the worst).
>
> If the BASIC dialects were to incorporate more of the C-like syntax,
they'd
> have the advantage over C. C++, however, would probably still have the
> advantage over both, since you can bring in the features native to BASIC
> via appropriate class definitions.
>
> The main disadvantage of C++ is its overly-bureaucratic design. It's
> almost as if the language was conceived by a committee of suit-wearing
> company men at some large corporation or something, heavily imbued
> in the "latest-buzz" and "everything is a programme" mindset of
companyese.
"Willem" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Everett wrote:
> ) Willem <[email protected]> writes:
> )> Kent wrote:
> )> ) Not one having to do with knowing spit about programming,
> )> ) obviously. Were you sleeping the day "Turing Complete
> )> ) Language" was whispered in class?
> )>
> )> May I jump in with a mention of the (Turing complete) language 'Ook' ?
> )
> ) No, you may not. 8-)
> )
> ) "Ook" is object-oriented K, a very advanced form of C?
>
> Umm, no. 'Ook' is the sound an orang-utan makes.
> And it's a Turing-Complete language.
>
>
> SaSW, Willem
> --
> Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
> made in the above text. For all I know I might be
> drugged or something..
> No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
> #EOT
You guys have WAY too much free time on your hands! :-)
[email protected] (English Teacher) writes:
>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
One that incorporates as much of an algebraic theory of control flow
structures within by embedding the greatest degree of equivalences
between them. This is especially important for the deployment of
practical algebraic tools and methods for mathematical verification,
transformation and optimization.
Both C and C++ have the required degree of fluidity in their control
flow structures. In contrast, things tends to be frozen in place in
Java and BASIC dialects, thus increasingly requiring algebraic steps in
control flow structure manipulations and computations to go outside the
language during intermediate steps.
Also important is to minimize the degree of built-in'edness, which
really straightjackets everything at the outset. This is directly tied
to the issue of fluidity: more built-in'edness tends to be symptomatic
of lesser fluidity.
This, too, favors a C/C++ approach, with suitable libraries (if need
be) to handle the native features that might be incorporated in the
other languages. C++ has the best advantage in terms of its ability
(when used right) for nearly seamless extension by quasi-native add-ons.
Ironically, strictures placed on some of the control flow structures --
which greatly impedes the enterprise of algebraic mathematical
verification, transformation and optimization, are often placed in the
name of "reliability" (particularly, that put on the "for" loop in
some of these languages, Pascal was the worst).
If the BASIC dialects were to incorporate more of the C-like syntax, they'd
have the advantage over C. C++, however, would probably still have the
advantage over both, since you can bring in the features native to BASIC
via appropriate class definitions.
The main disadvantage of C++ is its overly-bureaucratic design. It's
almost as if the language was conceived by a committee of suit-wearing
company men at some large corporation or something, heavily imbued
in the "latest-buzz" and "everything is a programme" mindset of companyese.
In rec.photo.digital English Teacher <[email protected]> wrote:
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
Before you plunge into learning a computer language, consider
learning english and Internet ettiquette.
I recommend Ada. Even if you don't ever have the privelege of using it
commercially you will learn a great deal about program structure,
abstraction, encapsulation, cohesion and loose coupling that will serve you
very well whatever language you end up using.
Learning a new programing language is easy, learning good software
engineering is hard: Ada is the best environment for the latter.
Since you have (cross-)posted this to comp.theory I assume you may have an
interest in programming formalisms, verification etc. If so then take a
look at www.sparkada.com which describes a semantically-precise,
formally-specified Ada subset complete with proof tools.
regards
Peter
Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>
>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
>C++
Useful for what?
--
Ray Fischer
[email protected]
Charles Douglas Wehner <[email protected]> wrote:
>CBFalconer <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Wouter Lievens wrote:
>> >
>> > "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> > > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>> > >
>> > > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>> >
>> > C++
>>
>> Ada
>
>Ada is not AMONG!
>
>Nor is FORTH.
>
>I made an extensive study of Forth. I developed the most advanced
>version, for a host of purposes including multi-processor
[...]
>Ada is just like Forth, but with a little syntax interpretation to
>help with such things as the math. I made a study of Ada, along with
Get a life.
--
Ray Fischer
[email protected]
Charon the lurker <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected]
>> Charles Douglas Wehner <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >CBFalconer <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> >> Wouter Lievens wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> >> > news:[email protected]...
>> >> > > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>> >> >
>> >> > C++
>> >>
>> >> Ada
>> >
>> >Ada is not AMONG!
>> >
>> >Nor is FORTH.
>> >
>> >I made an extensive study of Forth. I developed the most advanced
>> >version, for a host of purposes including multi-processor
>> [...]
>>
>> >Ada is just like Forth, but with a little syntax interpretation to
>> >help with such things as the math. I made a study of Ada, along with
>>
>> Get a life.
>
>It's a programmer, they have no life.
I work as a professional software engineer for a well-known software
company. I have a life. Anyone who makes "an extensive study of
Forth" doesn't.
IMO.
--
Ray Fischer
[email protected]
> > >"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> > >news:[email protected]...
> > >> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> > >>
> > >> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> > >
> > >C++
> > >
I vote for regular old C (the non++ version). You can d/l a free compiler
from www.htsoft.com called Pacific C. When you get good at that it will be
easy to do C++ or Java, which use most of the same conventions, but with the
added complexity of the whole object-oriented thing. Of course PASCAL was
actually written to teach programming, but is going out-of-style. Delphi is
PASCAL-based, though.
Good Luck,
Charlie
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Joe wrote:
> ) If you learn C first, a number of habits may have to be unlearned
> ) in order to become a competent C++ or Java programmer later.
>
> I think you can substitute a lot of languages there.
>
How about Forth?
I'll never forget the saying (apologies to the originator - I don't know
who you are) "Forth is a recursive language. You can't understand Forth
until you understand Forth."
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
Kent Paul Dolan <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Ray Fischer" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I work as a professional software engineer for
>> a well-known software company.
>
>I sure hope no one there reads your postings, or
>that "professional" is going to be called into doubt.
Oooo! Amateur flames. We are _so_ impressed.
>> I have a life.
>
>Not one having to do with knowing spit about programming,
More than you.
> Were you sleeping the day "Turing Complete
>Language" was whispered in class?
Nope. Number of Turing Machines being used today: 0
>> Anyone who makes "an extensive study of Forth" doesn't.
>
>My how full of ourselves we are today.
Yup.
>I've seen, in use, an entire cartographic data application
>system software suite, written top to bottom in Forth;
It's a useful language. Nothing more.
--
Ray Fischer
[email protected]
Bob Haar <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is some one wants to learn programming, I would suggest several languages:
>
> Java - modern OO languages are the way to go and are harder to learn if
>you get stuck in the mindset of procedural languages first
Java's okay, but it has some oddities and isn't really a good OO
language because (if I remember right) it relies too much on static
binding.
> assembler (preferably for a micro) - helps you understand how computers
>work
Agreed. But these days even embedded systems are written in C.
> C - a procedural language for historical sake
It's actually more a functional language.
> COBOL - a dinosaur but there are always jobs
Heard that the COBOL committee was looking at object COBOL.
The mind reels.
> PERL - string manipulation at its best
Yuck. Kitchen sink.
> UNIX shell (any variety) - the simple elegance is revealing
Well, it's certianly useful. Unless you're a Windows weenie. :-)
>I would avoid any of the proprietary languages, especially the near-standard
>Microsoft variations.
No VB, no C#.
> There is no reason to learn bad habits that you have
>to un-do later.
--
Ray Fischer
[email protected]
Andrzej Lewandowski <alewando_tego_nie@oddpost_tego_tez_nie.com> wrote:
> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>>Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>>
>>>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>>
>>>C++
>>
>>Useful for what?
>
>Quote: "useful language to learn"
A hammer is a useful tool.
Unless you need to cut a 2x4 in half.
--
Ray Fischer
[email protected]
Ray Fischer wrote:
>
> A hammer is a useful tool.
>
> Unless you need to cut a 2x4 in half.
In Japan, the foot can split wood.
[yeeeee-aargh!]
But you *can't* cut a watermelon with it!
[yeeAAR!-splat]
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
> Any problem can be solved by adding another level of indirection.
> Take your hammer, and the 2x4, to the nearest carpentry shop. Enter.
> Hold your hammer in a prominent position. Swing it, casually but
> /not/ threateningly (let's stay legal here). Then say to the
> carpenter, "I have a fine piece of 2x4 here which needs to be cut
> exactly in half. Please perform this small task for me, at no
> charge." Grin at him. Wary of your expression, and eying your hammer
> nervously, the carpenter complies.
*Complies?* More like he fires up his Skillsaw and says, "How about for
$200 I let you leave?"
"Never bring a hammer to a sawfight." - Sean Connery in The Uncuttables
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
"Brandon J. Van Every" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Ray Fischer wrote:
> >
> > A hammer is a useful tool.
> >
> > Unless you need to cut a 2x4 in half.
>
> In Japan, the foot can split wood.
> [yeeeee-aargh!]
> But you *can't* cut a watermelon with it!
> [yeeAAR!-splat]
I had a friend who had been in the Swiss army, so I asked him how to use the
can opener on my Swiss Army Knife. He said: well, they taught us how to kill
people using the can opener, but we used our bayonettes to open cans.
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
In rec.photo.digital Wouter Lievens <[email protected]> wrote:
> "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>
>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> C++
Actually, the most useful programming language depends on
the programming project at hand. For example, C++ would be
a terrible choice for writing many Unix system management
tools, but it would be a superb choice for writing many
other classifications of software. For web programming,
Java is an excellent choice, or perl. For programming
under Microsoft's IIS, there's something to be said for
visual basic, c#, or v.net.
So the best language depends on what you want to do.
faint
"Tony Spadaro" <[email protected]>
news:[email protected]...
> Most useful computer language I ever noticed was:
> SHUT UP AND STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS - YOU MORON!
> Too bad more people haven't learned it.
> --
> http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
> home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
> The Improved Links Pages are at
> http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
> A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
> http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
> "Stanley Krute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi Dabhar
> >
> > > want to create mostly
> > > freeware/shareware utility programs
> >
> > For client apps, I use and recommend Java.
> > Cross-platforming works if you're diligent.
> >
> > For browser-ui apps, I use and recommend
> > perl/php.
> >
> > > would also like to be able to
> > > create a chat room or discussion group type of thing
> >
> > For that, I'd start with an open-source product,
> > use it, tweak it, expand it. I use and recommend
> > phpBB. There are other excellent choices.
> >
> > Most important: just dive in. Start dog-paddling.
> > Learn what you need when you need it. Your
> > key programming skills IMO are diligent organization
> > and clean concise task breakdown. The language
> > is just mopup.
> >
> > -- stan
> >
> > who's programmed in way too many languages
> > and enjoyed parts of 'em all
> >
> >
> >
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
"Dabhar" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Thanks for looking.
>I've been wondering which language to learn first too. Can we have a little
>more clarification here? I'd really appreciate it. I want to create mostly
>freeware/shareware utility programs...but would also like to be able to
>create a chat room or discussion group type of thing......any suggestions?
>
>
The question is kind of a non sequitor. If you're using a Windows, or a
Linux box, you'll be using 3 or 4 languages at the same time. PHP or
ASP for the web page automation, SQL for database queries, and of course
HTML for web page layout. You might also have to learn the obscure
notation of you web server configuration (kind of a language), an editor
like emacs (when people ask my religion I say I use emacs but I was
raised Methodist.) For Linux or other *nix's it helps to know Bash, the
command line shell.
A great way to learn this is to spend the $30 on a book on how to whack
out automated websites on the platform of your choice.
The real b*tch of learning how to program is the fact that you'll always
have to learn at least three "languages" simutaniously to do anything of
interest. On top of that you'll have to learn how to use the vast
library of system calls to get some help from the computer you're
running on. Another chalange is to realise that the thing you'd like to
build has already been built by someone else and you'd be better off
re-using and addapting their code to your purpose.
--
Dana Miller
Thanks for looking.
I've been wondering which language to learn first too. Can we have a little
more clarification here? I'd really appreciate it. I want to create mostly
freeware/shareware utility programs...but would also like to be able to
create a chat room or discussion group type of thing......any suggestions?
CBFalconer <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Wouter Lievens wrote:
> >
> > "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> > >
> > > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> >
> > C++
>
> Ada
Ada is not AMONG!
Nor is FORTH.
I made an extensive study of Forth. I developed the most advanced
version, for a host of purposes including multi-processor
(supercomputer), multitasking, cross-compiling &c. Then the British
government put on its war-paint in order to rob the world of oil. They
demolished my home and possessions as "practice" for bestiality. Many
innocent people died. I became a refugee.
However, from my experience I would ALWAYS recommend a study of Forth
as a GROUNDING in computer science.
I myself refuse to call it a LANGUAGE.
It is the ONLY official study of SUBROUTINES. That is to say, since
the earliest mud-huts houses have been built of COMPONENTS. And so it
will be with computer programs. Programs are built out of ROUTINES,
which are built from SUBROUTINES and so on .... down to the level of
the tiniest snippets of code. These elements are like the bricks, the
roof-tiles, the window-glass and door- and window-frames in the
construction industry.
It all boils down to a KERNEL that has to be coded in machine code.
That kernel is like the P-CODE of Dr. Niklaus Wirth's PASCAL. It is
also like the core routines of C, C++ and all the others quoted.
Without a kernel adapted to each processor, a language is not
portable.
Then come the SYNTAX and the SEMANTICS. To be a language, in my
definition, the system must resequence human thought into a form that
a machine understands. So when we think of language, we think of
HUMANS.
Most CPUs require POSTFIX operators. First you load a register, then
maybe another, and THEN you can operate.
So in machine code on the Pentium, you MOV EAX,2 MOV EBX,3 and MUL
EBX. This gives 2 times 3.
Grab a parameter. Grab the other (if any). Operate.
In Forth, 2 3 * .
In Human, MULTIPLY 2 BY 3. The word "multiply" - the operator - is
PREFIX. The "by" is an expletive (a "filler-word"), or a separator
between the parameters 2 and 3.
In Basic, PRINT 2 * 3. This has a PREFIX "print" and a "MIDFIX"
multiply.
Basic - like so much human thought - is what I call "MIXFIX", a
mixture.
I wrote a syntax interpreter to interpret ANY language into the
machine-sequence (into Forth postfix operation). I was making great
progress at turning Forth into the UNIVERSAL P-CODE for ALL languages.
Then the British government stopped me.
The quirks of the many languages can be seen to be the quirks of the
syntax interpretation. They are also the quirks of the SEMANTICS - the
reserved words that the language designer has chosen. Those quirks are
LANGUAGE-SPECIFIC, and are not based upon any fundamentals of computer
science. That is to say, the language designer decides what it is that
he wants to write in order to achieve a given result. Then the
language designer writes an interpreter to resequence those words.
Memorising the syntax and semantics of a language may make you an
expert on that language - but then along comes a new language, and you
have to begin again.
Learning the techniques of syntax interpretation teaches you
EVERYTHING about the underlying rules.
Let "no-more-data", or "carriage-return" have priority 0.
Let PRINT have priority 1.
Let + have priority 2.
Let * have priority 3.
We stack the literals on the arithmetic stack.
So we have PRINT(1) literal2 *(3) literal3 (0)
The machine reads PRINT, and sees a 1. It reads a literal, which it
stacks. It reads a "*" and sees 3 (a rise). It reads a literal, which
it stacks. It reads the end-of-line and sees a 0. This is a DROP from
all the way back, so it RUNS the code * and RUNS the code PRINT. The
result is 2 3 * PRINT as in Forth.
This is an INTERPRETED language.
It could also generate the machine-code CALL LITERAL(2): CALL
LITERAL(3): CALL *: CALL PRINT and store it. That would be a COMPILING
language.
So you see, the ONLY real difference between the many and various
languages is in the choice of words like "*" (which could be reserved
as "MULT" or similar), and their "magic-number" priorities. These
things are chosen by the language designer according to his whim.
Ada is just like Forth, but with a little syntax interpretation to
help with such things as the math. I made a study of Ada, along with
Fortran, Algol, Cobol, Occam, C, C++ and many others. The main purpose
of Ada is that by having a RIGID syntax it prevents programmers from
writing differently each according to his own "style". So military
programs will all look alike, and a change of programming staff should
not alter the "look-and-feel" of the source.
Charles Douglas Wehner
"Ray Fischer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I work as a professional software engineer for
> a well-known software company.
I sure hope no one there reads your postings, or
that "professional" is going to be called into doubt.
> I have a life.
Not one having to do with knowing spit about programming,
obviously. Were you sleeping the day "Turing Complete
Language" was whispered in class?
> Anyone who makes "an extensive study of Forth" doesn't.
My how full of ourselves we are today.
I've seen, in use, an entire cartographic data application
system software suite, written top to bottom in Forth; about
twenty-five years ago, at that.
The language is hardly a toy, and has been the language of
choice for certain astronomical applications (because that
was its target application area) since its inception.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
"English Teacher" <[email protected]> wrote:
> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
Please when you start religious wars, keep crossposting to a minimum;
how can you possibly think all those rec.* groups would be interested
in the answer?
xanthian.
[And what language is "most useful" depends entirely on what tasks
you want to do with it.]
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
The only 2 things that ever came out of Berkeley were LSD and UNIX - -
somehow I think they're related.
"rj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:YScRb.152900$I06.1541981@attbi_s01...
> If I said assembler code, would it kill this thread? (yes, it is extremely
> useful but you have to know what you're doing)
> "Programmer Dude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Ray Fischer wrote:
> >
> > > Heard that the COBOL committee was looking at object COBOL.
> > >
> > > The mind reels.
> >
> > Wait 'til you hear the name:
> >
> > POST-INCREMENT-COBOL-BY-ONE
> >
> > --
> > |_ CJSonnack <[email protected]> _____________| How's my programming? |
> > |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
> > |_____________________________________________|_______________________|
>
>
osmium wrote:
> rj writes:
>
>
>>If I said assembler code, would it kill this thread? (yes, it is extremely
>>useful but you have to know what you're doing)
>
>
> There are already 122 posts to a question to which the only sane answer is
> "Useful for what?". How could anyone possible destroy such a thread? :-(
>
>
knit a shirt?
NR
"Dana Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Dabhar" <[email protected]> wrote:
> The real b*tch of learning how to program is the fact that you'll always
> have to learn at least three "languages" simutaniously to do anything of
> interest.
Another problem is that programming languages have a short half life.
I must know at least a hundred different dialects of Basic.
I've already learned six versions of Visual Basic
(and that doesn't include ASP or VBScript.)
A friend and I joke about how we don't know what we will be
experts in a year from now. If you want to be a programmer,
assume you will be learning new langauges your entire career.
Russell
- 2 many 2 count
"Martijn" <[email protected]> writes:
> English Teacher wrote:
> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >
> > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
> I would go with Java, 'cause coffee is useful during any of the activities
> discussed in the newsgroups this has been sent to.
Well, I prefer T. Also, with too much caffeine, I have trouble handholding
lenses at slower speeds.
Regards,
Chris
--
Bokeh test images: http://www.bokeh.de/en/bokeh_images.html
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:26:45 GMT, "David Binkowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Now that I think of it, probably Z80 assembler. Until the last
>decade or so (maybe it still is !!!) the Space Shuttle used old
>Z80 processors with 8 bit software... Would you upgrade
>to anything newer? I can't go a day without rebooting my
>Windows desktop at work...
You don't think that has a little more to do with the code, than the
language?
>Hmmmm, yes. Definitely Z80 assembler is THE most
>important and marketable language today !!!
I'd go so far as to agree that it's the most _useful_, in a strictly generic
sense.
Jeff
http://www.jefftturner.com
I did not see it listed but most of our machines are using
English-just the regular type I guess. (Hope this helps!)
On 21 Oct 2003 16:37:34 GMT, [email protected] (Mark) wrote:
>[email protected] (English Teacher) writes:
>>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
>One that incorporates as much of an algebraic theory of control flow
>structures within by embedding the greatest degree of equivalences
>between them. This is especially important for the deployment of
>practical algebraic tools and methods for mathematical verification,
>transformation and optimization.
>
>Both C and C++ have the required degree of fluidity in their control
>flow structures. In contrast, things tends to be frozen in place in
>Java and BASIC dialects, thus increasingly requiring algebraic steps in
>control flow structure manipulations and computations to go outside the
>language during intermediate steps.
>
>Also important is to minimize the degree of built-in'edness, which
>really straightjackets everything at the outset. This is directly tied
>to the issue of fluidity: more built-in'edness tends to be symptomatic
>of lesser fluidity.
>
>This, too, favors a C/C++ approach, with suitable libraries (if need
>be) to handle the native features that might be incorporated in the
>other languages. C++ has the best advantage in terms of its ability
>(when used right) for nearly seamless extension by quasi-native add-ons.
>
>Ironically, strictures placed on some of the control flow structures --
>which greatly impedes the enterprise of algebraic mathematical
>verification, transformation and optimization, are often placed in the
>name of "reliability" (particularly, that put on the "for" loop in
>some of these languages, Pascal was the worst).
>
>If the BASIC dialects were to incorporate more of the C-like syntax, they'd
>have the advantage over C. C++, however, would probably still have the
>advantage over both, since you can bring in the features native to BASIC
>via appropriate class definitions.
>
>The main disadvantage of C++ is its overly-bureaucratic design. It's
>almost as if the language was conceived by a committee of suit-wearing
>company men at some large corporation or something, heavily imbued
>in the "latest-buzz" and "everything is a programme" mindset of companyese.
On 21 Oct 2003 15:18:20 +0200, Christoph Breitkopf
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Martijn" <[email protected]> writes:
>> English Teacher wrote:
>> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>> >
>> > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>
>> I would go with Java, 'cause coffee is useful during any of the activities
>> discussed in the newsgroups this has been sent to.
>
>Well, I prefer T. Also, with too much caffeine, I have trouble handholding
>lenses at slower speeds.
Ahhh T has more caffeine than coffee.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>Regards,
>Chris
Now that I think of it, probably Z80 assembler. Until the last
decade or so (maybe it still is !!!) the Space Shuttle used old
Z80 processors with 8 bit software... Would you upgrade
to anything newer? I can't go a day without rebooting my
Windows desktop at work...
Hmmmm, yes. Definitely Z80 assembler is THE most
important and marketable language today !!!
--
The software said it ran under Windows 98/NT/2000, or better.
So I installed it on Linux...
"Charles Richmond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> English Teacher wrote:
> >
> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >
> > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
> >
> What are you trying to *do* with the computer language???
> Different languages are better for different things...
>
>
> --
> +----------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------+
Most useful computer language I ever noticed was:
SHUT UP AND STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS - YOU MORON!
Too bad more people haven't learned it.
--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
"Stanley Krute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Dabhar
>
> > want to create mostly
> > freeware/shareware utility programs
>
> For client apps, I use and recommend Java.
> Cross-platforming works if you're diligent.
>
> For browser-ui apps, I use and recommend
> perl/php.
>
> > would also like to be able to
> > create a chat room or discussion group type of thing
>
> For that, I'd start with an open-source product,
> use it, tweak it, expand it. I use and recommend
> phpBB. There are other excellent choices.
>
> Most important: just dive in. Start dog-paddling.
> Learn what you need when you need it. Your
> key programming skills IMO are diligent organization
> and clean concise task breakdown. The language
> is just mopup.
>
> -- stan
>
> who's programmed in way too many languages
> and enjoyed parts of 'em all
>
>
>
| CBFalconer said |
> Wouter Lievens wrote:
>> "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>> > Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>> C++
> Ada
Python
--
Never forget the halloween documents.
http://www.opensource.org/halloween/
""" Where will Microsoft try to drag you today?
Do you really want to go there?"""
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:08:59 -0700, Alan Balmer wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:27:36 +0100, "Wouter Lievens"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>>
>>> Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>>
>>C++
>>
> I can't find the original post, but surely one must first ask the
> question "Most useful for what?"
For photography they are all pretty much useless <:-) I just wonder why
this was cross posted to rec.woodworking, rec.photo.digital,
rec.photo.equipment.35mm doesn't seem to follow the mandate of any of
these.....
"Brian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:240120042010014597%[email protected]...
> You know, you guys claim to be so smart but yet none of you can figure
> out how to stop crossposting this into irrelevant newsgroups. What the
> hell does this have to do with woodworking, or photography?
And you crossposted that, for the same reason they crossposted the other
posts, and I am going to crosspost this.....So others, to whom it may
concern, will be able to read it........
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:15:33 GMT, "Frank ess" <[email protected]> wrote:
POk. SOmeone dubmer than English Teacher.
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In rec.photo.digital English Teacher <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
> Before you plunge into learning a computer language, consider
> learning english and Internet ettiquette.
shhh
On 20 Oct 2003 23:55:11 -0700, English Teacher <[email protected]> wrote:
>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>
>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
Python
Joe wrote:
) If you learn C first, a number of habits may have to be unlearned
) in order to become a competent C++ or Java programmer later.
I think you can substitute a lot of languages there.
If you learn BASIC first, ... competent C or Pascal programmer.
'' assembly '' BASIC or Perl ''
'' Pascal '' Lisp or Haskell ''
'' Perl '' C or Java ''
IMO, a competent programmer has done one or more such transitions, and
has therefore lost any bad habits associated with a perticular language.
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
Kent wrote:
) Not one having to do with knowing spit about programming,
) obviously. Were you sleeping the day "Turing Complete
) Language" was whispered in class?
May I jump in with a mention of the (Turing complete) language 'Ook' ?
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
Everett wrote:
) Willem <[email protected]> writes:
)> Kent wrote:
)> ) Not one having to do with knowing spit about programming,
)> ) obviously. Were you sleeping the day "Turing Complete
)> ) Language" was whispered in class?
)>
)> May I jump in with a mention of the (Turing complete) language 'Ook' ?
)
) No, you may not. 8-)
)
) "Ook" is object-oriented K, a very advanced form of C?
Umm, no. 'Ook' is the sound an orang-utan makes.
And it's a Turing-Complete language.
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
Wouter Lievens wrote:
> "English Teacher" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>What would be the most useful language to learn among:
>>
>>Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
>
> C++
>
>
>
Some web sites that 'track' the most prevelant languages.
http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
http://mshiltonj.com/sm/categories/languages/
HTH
Jerry
"David Binkowski" <[email protected]> wrote
> Now that I think of it, probably Z80 assembler. Until the last
> decade or so (maybe it still is !!!) the Space Shuttle used old
> Z80 processors with 8 bit software... Would you upgrade
> to anything newer? I can't go a day without rebooting my
> Windows desktop at work...
>
> Hmmmm, yes. Definitely Z80 assembler is THE most
> important and marketable language today !!!
>
you haven't seen Red Dwarf when Kryton says "the Starbug has
crashed more times than a Z80!"
Z80 assembler yuck, give me direct registers on the 6510 any day.
Windows and 90% of programs you use are written in C so that is the most useful,
for 99% of the functionality and 1% of the learning curve go for Delphi.
Herc
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (English Teacher) writes:
> >What would be the most useful language to learn among:
> >Java, C, C#, C++, VB, VB.NET, DELPHI?
>
> One that incorporates as much of an algebraic theory of control flow
> structures within by embedding the greatest degree of equivalences
> between them. This is especially important for the deployment of
> practical algebraic tools and methods for mathematical verification,
> transformation and optimization.
>
> Both C and C++ have the required degree of fluidity in their control
> flow structures. In contrast, things tends to be frozen in place in
> Java and BASIC dialects, thus increasingly requiring algebraic steps in
> control flow structure manipulations and computations to go outside the
> language during intermediate steps.
>
> Also important is to minimize the degree of built-in'edness, which
> really straightjackets everything at the outset. This is directly tied
> to the issue of fluidity: more built-in'edness tends to be symptomatic
> of lesser fluidity.
>
> This, too, favors a C/C++ approach, with suitable libraries (if need
> be) to handle the native features that might be incorporated in the
> other languages. C++ has the best advantage in terms of its ability
> (when used right) for nearly seamless extension by quasi-native add-ons.
>
> Ironically, strictures placed on some of the control flow structures --
> which greatly impedes the enterprise of algebraic mathematical
> verification, transformation and optimization, are often placed in the
> name of "reliability" (particularly, that put on the "for" loop in
> some of these languages, Pascal was the worst).
>
> If the BASIC dialects were to incorporate more of the C-like syntax,
they'd
> have the advantage over C. C++, however, would probably still have the
> advantage over both, since you can bring in the features native to BASIC
> via appropriate class definitions.
>
> The main disadvantage of C++ is its overly-bureaucratic design. It's
> almost as if the language was conceived by a committee of suit-wearing
> company men at some large corporation or something, heavily imbued
> in the "latest-buzz" and "everything is a programme" mindset of
companyese.
not here
Charles Douglas Wehner at [email protected] :
> Nor is FORTH.
In the beginning, there was the WORD and Chuck Moore saw it was good...
I'm starting to feel the human brain develops along the same lines as a
good Forth construct.
mike
--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ [email protected] \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/
..let the cat out to reply..