Anybody have current suggestions? Have used the PC 333/334's for years
but they're now 343/344 and 8-hole pad instead of 5.
Anybody know if anyone's making a 5-hole any more? I am _not_ wanting
to have to stock another batch of paper at this point w/ the amount of
5-hole on hand.
Anybody know if the Milwaukee 6021 (or any other suggested) pads will
interchange w/ the P-C three-screw mounting? Can still get the
replacement pads (or at least could a few months back); I'll swap 'em
out if necessary.
OBTW, Festool/etc. is not in the price range for any suggestions... :)
--
On Feb 2, 6:31=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/2/2011 4:59 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "dpb"<[email protected]> =A0wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> -MIKE- wrote:
> >> ...
>
> >>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
> >>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS ...
>
> >> I thought it was closer to 2X that... ?
>
> >> --
>
> > There is a Festool ROS that is considerable less expensive than the
> > Rotex125/150. =A0It is more of a finish sander rather than an all aroun=
d
> > agressive/finish sander. =A0And yes the Rotex 125/150 are $400/$500
> > respectively IIRC.
>
> I'm glad I took your advice and bought into the Festool sander gig, and
> I'm glad I took your advice and got the Rotex125 instead of the 150.
>
> I tend to go toward bigger is better in that kind of tool (the more
> surface area the quicker I'm done kinda thinking), but the 150 would be
> a bit much to handle in the marathon sanding sessions that I'm wont to
> do when I finally get started.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
errrmmm... the 150 Rotex is a totally different sander doing much more
amazing things...stay tuned...LOL
On Feb 5, 5:27=A0pm, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? <grin=
>
> My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
> other ROSs.
> Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
> cost.
> What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
> I've been looking at the 150:http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
>
> I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is
> worth the money..........I'll spring.
> Thanks,
>
> Max
The one(s) I use and really like is this one: http://tinyurl.com/5tyglhf
Big difference in performance and price, however.
On Feb 6, 8:50=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/5/2011 10:15 PM, Han wrote:
>
> >>> Now what about the new rotex, the 90? =A0Is that just another even
> >>> smaller version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150?
> >>> I think the 90 is ~3.5", 125 =3D 5" 150 =3D 6".
>
> See below ..
>
> > That's one of the reasons I'm asking the question.
>
> Besides being smaller, with the same dual mode charateristics as the
> larger multi-mode sanders, it also has "ability to swap the round pad
> for a delta-shaped pad to reach deep into corners and crevices."
>
> =A0http://rotex.festoolusa.com/sanders/features/multi-mode/
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
I think I would like one of those. One of those, a TS75 along with a
Rotex 150, and, whathehay one of them there 2000 watt routers, a
sucker and you pretty much have a woodshop. Oh, and a MFT.
Swingman wrote:
> On 2/3/2011 11:21 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
>> I totally agree. One should have both.<G> If I had to have only one,
>> it'd be the 5"
>
>> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
>> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
>
> That's not a sander, that's a farkn' hoovercraft.
It's a tool alright, but those of us with menopausal wives might see other
uses for something like this...
So, kill me - I'm just trying to think "out of the box..."
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:22:52 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 2, 12:55 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>>
>> > dpb wrote:
>> >> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>>
>> > Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>>
>> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
>> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
>> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>
>It is hard to argue with 50 dollars, even if the performance is only
>at 75% to that of a Festool. ( 75% of 5 x 8 hour days, will give you
>an extra day off every week.)
EEK! 40 hours per week _sanding_?
Even with a festerl, that would be hell.
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 3, 1:54 pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 2/3/2011 11:21 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>>
>>>> I totally agree. One should have both.<G> If I had to have only
>>>> one, it'd be the 5"
>>
>>>> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
>>>> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
>>
>>> That's not a sander, that's a farkn' hoovercraft.
>>
>> It's a tool alright, but those of us with menopausal wives might see
>> other uses for something like this...
>>
>> So, kill me - I'm just trying to think "out of the box..."
>>
>
> Keep that up and you'll be thinking inside a box.. with handles... and
> the word 'wake' won't be part of the word 'awake'...
Yeahbut... I didn't use the "U" word...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dpb wrote:
>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>
> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>
> --
You ruled out the one worth having..... ;~)
On Feb 2, 12:55=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>
> > dpb wrote:
> >> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>
> > Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>
> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
> pleased with it, so far. =A0It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
It is hard to argue with 50 dollars, even if the performance is only
at 75% to that of a Festool. ( 75% of 5 x 8 hour days, will give you
an extra day off every week.)
In most cases a unit like that will do the job.
If the 'job' is doing a lot of 'jobs', the extra spent on a Festool or
other genuine pro products, quickly becomes a wise and pleasant
investment.
That's not to say that Leon's desire to sand rather than sleep isn't
genuine, but even a Festool sander doesn't quite make the cut, so to
speak.
Maybe that frickin' Mirka might...18 amps.. EIGHTEEN !! Bet the
frickin' thing smells nice too...dammit.
If the 6" Ridgid in its recent incarnation is any indication, the 5"
will probably suck too.
IMHO, you really can't go wrong with Bosch or Milwaukee in most cases.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
>>
>> I did notice what hes said, quality control. There is no quality to
>> control. I would call it a standard control.
>>
>> ;~) If every hamburger you bought from a specific store had sand in it
>> and every time had the exact same of sand in it would you say they have a
>> good quality control? ...
>
> If the corporate and/or store specification stated that was the proper
> amount of sand, yes, that would be good quality control.
>
>
> --
Well let's say that the sand was not intended however they could not remidy
the situation and the consumer is stuck with it and accepts it.
Or lets say the hamburgers sit on the shelf and drys out until the next rush
of customers but a trip to the steamer to reintroduce moisture and heat to
the burger is a standard procedure. Is that "quality" control even though
the burger is not as fresh as the ones currently being assembled and
immediately sold but no one can tell the difference in taste?
On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:02:21 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>Snip
>
>>
>> Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you live
>> or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?
>
>
>I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
>advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other than
>availability.
I love buying locally--when they don't insist on retail pricing. But
when they are merely an outlet, with no additional consultation or
support, that makes no sense at all. Some local outlets sell but do NO
warranty at all, even replacement of obvious mfgr defects. I'm sure
that with the prices Festool gets, they demand more and better of
their dealers than that.
>While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer that
>every one charges the same price so that you know that you are not paying
>more than somewhere else.
I'd rather pay wholesale ANY DAY, than to be forced to pay retail
(twice the price) on anything. Makita's SP6000K, the improved ;) clone
of the Festool TS55, retails for $614 but Amazon has it for $360
delivered. I prefer a non-dictated price for obvious reasons. I know
how to shop and I shop for value, not just price. I'll spend a little
more to a known dealer and easier warranty system.
The Bosch and Makita impact drivers were definitely worth the hundreds
I spent on each as I use them ruggedly, daily, year after year. For
other things, I can get away with Chiwanese stuff. It all works out.
--
Education should provide the tools for a widening and deepening
of life, for increased appreciation of all one sees or experiences.
It should equip a person to live life well, to understand what is
happening around him, for to live life well one must live life with
awareness. -- Louis L'Amour
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> You have to be specific as the 125 more describes a round 5" sander, not
> one in particular as indicated below.
>
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2006180/17571/Festool-Rotex-Dual-Mode-Sander-RO-125-5-Dia.aspx
>
> The Rotex indicated above is in a class all by itself as far as speed and
> quality of output and the Rotex is the unit that Swingman, Robatoy, and I
> are most always talking about.
>
Apparently Festool has come out with a new sander and dust extraction
system,
What are your thoughts on them?
Do you feel old fashioned and behind the times yet? ;-)
I wrote:
> Run face frames thru the drum sander and not only get a better job
> but
> also save time.
-------------------------------------
"Swingman" wrote:
> Good trick if you could do it ... final face frame sanding on a
> cabinet run is generally done after installation.
----------------------------
Last trip I made to the drum sanding shop, had to wait for the guy to
finish a load of face frames that were being installed the next day.
Evidently finish sand was good enough for that job.
Lew
"Swingman" wrote:
> So's a Big Mac ... if I couldn't do better than fast fast food
> quality work, I'd not do it in the first place. :)
----------------------------
McDonalds can take care of themselves, but from what I've seen of the
fast food industry by and large they do a pretty decent job of
maintaining quality control.
Given linen and silver service not provided.
Lew
"Leon" wrote:
> The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again.
> Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once
> mounted, makes the joint line disappear.
-------------------------------
Good point and it raises a question in my mind.
Since both sides of the face frame are sanded smooth, how much a
problem of joint line mismatch do you think remains at final ass'y?
Lew
Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? <grin>
My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
other ROSs.
Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
cost.
What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
I've been looking at the 150:
http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is
worth the money..........I'll spring.
Thanks,
Max
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:143b7223-514d-4ed3-9616-2721cd7f0169@c10g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 5, 5:27 pm, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? <grin>
> My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
> other ROSs.
> Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
> cost.
> What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
> I've been looking at the 150:http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
>
> I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is
> worth the money..........I'll spring.
> Thanks,
>
> Max
>The one(s) I use and really like is this one: http://tinyurl.com/5tyglhf
>Big difference in performance and price, however.
I don't think I *need* the rotary action. I can't recall an instance where
I had a sanding situation where I needed that sort of an aggressive action.
Once in awhile I might need to take off a slight misfit between a face frame
and the carcase but my belt sander does it very well.
And an extra $200. doesn't seem to me to be justified..................at
this point.
Max
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
> Festool products are excellently engineered and of high quality, and that
> one would be a good one, but it is not the top end of the Festool sanders.
>
> I would say that you might get a better bang for your buck by shopping
> around and checking other reviews, like this one:
>
> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1493&articleID=501109
>
> The "Rotex" versions are what I'm most familiar with and ...
>
> I would say yes ... mainly due to having a choice of motions ("rotex", or
> aggressive removal, and eccentric, or less aggressive), bolstered by the
> hole location and number in the pad, increasing the benefit (longer
> sandpaper life) from dust extraction, given you overall a much more
> efficient sanding system.
>
> However ... to be effective and get the greatest sanding efficiency, you
> most definitely do need a dust extraction system. Might not have to be a
> Festool DE system, but they certainly optimize the performance.
>
> Also, the motors are robust, well engineered and relatively quiet and
> vibration free in operation.
>
> Here's an independent review of the Rotex 125, which compares it to the
> Rotex 150, so covers both quite nicely.
>
> http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/ro_125_review.pdf
>
>> I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is
>> worth the money..........I'll spring.
>
> Only caveat, as stated above ... IME&O, the sander must be part of a dust
> extraction system to get you maximum efficiency/cost effectiveness ...
> just my tuppence.
>
> That, of course, raises the ante ...
>
> I will say this, if you're in the woodworking business in some fashion, it
> is highly unlikely you will EVER regret any Festool purchase.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
As I mentioned to Robatoy, I'm dubious about the need for the aggressive
action of the Rotex series. (but I'm holding that option)
As for dust extraction I have two of these:
http://tinyurl.com/63tl88t
They have a "remote" on/off transmitter. I use one with my Festool TS75.
It works perfectly. I feel confident that it will work with the ROS.
So how well would you say the 150/5 compares to a Bosch 3727DVS? (which I
have)
I don't have a woodworking "business" but I do quite a bit of work "by
request" for family, friends and those who might become aware of my work.
Under that circumstance I'm not under any kind of production deadline but I
have a real appreciation for tools that "do the job right".
Many thanks for your input.
Max
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
> On 2/5/2011 6:13 PM, Max wrote:
>
>> So how well would you say the 150/5 compares to a Bosch 3727DVS? (which
>> I have)
>
> I can partially help you there ... I have a Bosch 3727DEVS, which was my
> go to sander for face frame and panel work before I got the Rotex125,
> and always used after using the belt sander ... which I no longer need
> with the Rotex125.
>
> There is NO comparison, although the Bosch stood me in good stead for a
> number of years, it has been sitting on the shelf and may not ever be
> used again ... I won't even bother to turn it on with this less than
> five feet away:
> My mantra ... I never quibble when it comes to springing for the tools
> needed to get the job done. Skimp there and you negate most of the
> satisfaction, as well as a good deal of the time and expense of getting
> any project completed.
>
> The best tools you can buy will save you money in the long run ...
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Will the pads that fit the Bosch.....fit the Festool?
Max
"Swingman" wrote:
> Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
> different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
> sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no
> comparable Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.
<snip>
SFWIW, Klingspor has punched specials for me at competitive levels.
Since Festool and Klingspor both call the fatherland home, should be
doable.
Lew
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:
>>
>> My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
>> Leon.
>> I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
>> (proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.
>
> Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of different
> types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool sanders ...
> this was for special purposes where there was no comparable Festool
> abrasive available, so it can be done.
>
> I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
> Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
> they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to cut
> out some paper dolls couldn't have had it. :)
>
> Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high quality
> abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of the paper
> when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work done with
> fewer sheet of abrasives.
>
> That's about the best I can do ... check out the FOG forum, ask the
> question, and there is little doubt your will get much more informative
> answers.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Many thanks.
I did post the question at the FOG forum and got essentially the same info
as you provided.
I also checked some prices and, as you say, the Festool prices aren't out of
line.
I'll be ordering my sander and abrasives tomorrow.
Max
On Feb 2, 7:09=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:22:52 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Feb 2, 12:55=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>
> >> > dpb wrote:
> >> >> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>
> >> > Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>
> >> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
> >> pleased with it, so far. =A0It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-ha=
nd,
> >> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>
> >It is hard to argue with 50 dollars, even if the performance is only
> >at 75% to that of a Festool. ( 75% of 5 x 8 hour days, will give you
> >an extra day off every week.)
>
> EEK! =A040 hours per week _sanding_? =A0
> Even with a festerl, that would be hell.
>
> --
> Woe be to him that reads but one book.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -- George Herbert
But I get a day off...
On 2/5/2011 10:15 PM, Han wrote:
>>> Now what about the new rotex, the 90? Is that just another even
>>> smaller version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150?
>>> I think the 90 is ~3.5", 125 = 5" 150 = 6".
See below ..
> That's one of the reasons I'm asking the question.
Besides being smaller, with the same dual mode charateristics as the
larger multi-mode sanders, it also has "ability to swap the round pad
for a delta-shaped pad to reach deep into corners and crevices."
http://rotex.festoolusa.com/sanders/features/multi-mode/
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Feb 2, 2:51=A0pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
> > On 2/2/2011 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
> >> dpb wrote:
> >>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>
> >> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>
> > I have a Bosch 6" that doesn't fit your criteria, but is a very usable
> > tool.
>
> > In 5", I have a Festool Rotex125, but you don't want to hear about that=
.
>
> > There is no comparison between the two in quality and functionality.
>
> > That said, the Bosch stood me in good stead for ten years, before I kne=
w
> > what excellence in a ROS was all about.
>
> But would you risk the investment in the Festool on exterior siding in
> preparation for painting on old barn w/ hired help also a possibility?
Dude... stop right there....
On 2/2/2011 4:59 PM, Leon wrote:
> "dpb"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
>>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS ...
>>
>> I thought it was closer to 2X that... ?
>>
>> --
>
> There is a Festool ROS that is considerable less expensive than the
> Rotex125/150. It is more of a finish sander rather than an all around
> agressive/finish sander. And yes the Rotex 125/150 are $400/$500
> respectively IIRC.
I'm glad I took your advice and bought into the Festool sander gig, and
I'm glad I took your advice and got the Rotex125 instead of the 150.
I tend to go toward bigger is better in that kind of tool (the more
surface area the quicker I'm done kinda thinking), but the 150 would be
a bit much to handle in the marathon sanding sessions that I'm wont to
do when I finally get started.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 2/7/2011 7:33 AM, Han wrote:
> I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125 mm.
> Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I get a good
> deal on a combo with the CT26?
If I did not already have, besides the RO125, both the RTS and DTS400, I
would definitely do likewise.
IMO, appears to be be an excellent choice, Han.
Might want to look on the FOG forum and see what's being said about them.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Feb 2, 6:09=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> The Rotex indicated above is in a class all by itself as far as speed and
> quality of output and the Rotex is the unit that Swingman, Robatoy, and I
> are most always talking about.
Rotex... that's the key word, indeed.
On Feb 3, 11:24=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2/2/2011 4:59 PM, Leon wrote:
> >> "dpb"<[email protected]> =A0wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>> -MIKE- wrote:
> >>> ...
>
> >>>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably po=
p
> >>>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS ...
>
> >>> I thought it was closer to 2X that... ?
>
> >>> --
>
> >> There is a Festool ROS that is considerable less expensive than the
> >> Rotex125/150. =A0It is more of a finish sander rather than an all arou=
nd
> >> agressive/finish sander. =A0And yes the Rotex 125/150 are $400/$500
> >> respectively IIRC.
>
> > I'm glad I took your advice and bought into the Festool sander gig, and
> > I'm glad I took your advice and got the Rotex125 instead of the 150.
>
> > I tend to go toward bigger is better in that kind of tool (the more
> > surface area the quicker I'm done kinda thinking), but the 150 would be=
a
> > bit much to handle in the marathon sanding sessions that I'm wont to do
> > when I finally get started.
>
> I strongly considered the 150 but knew that large wide spaces were not go=
ing
> to be my main area of sanding. =A0Even the Festool rep was suggesting the=
150
> over the 125 until I made him understand that face frames and cabinet doo=
rs
> and drawers were going to be the larger projects. =A0He then totally agre=
ed
> that the 150 would be more difficult to handle/balance on the narrow part=
s.
> If I was doing counter tops all the time I would have gone with the 150. =
=A0 I
> too have never given it a second thought my decision to go with the 125 o=
ver
> the 150. =A0Actually I often see instances where the 150 would not have g=
one
> where the 125 could go.
I totally agree. One should have both. <G> If I had to have only one,
it'd be the 5"
This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
On Feb 7, 7:41=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:
>
>
>
> > My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
> > Leon.
> > I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
> > (proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.
>
> Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
> different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
> sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no comparable
> Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.
>
> I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
> Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
> they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to
> cut out some paper dolls couldn't have had it. :)
>
> Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high
> quality abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of
> the paper when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work
> done with fewer sheet of abrasives.
>
> That's about the best I can do ... check out the FOG forum, ask the
> question, and there is little doubt your will get much more informative
> answers.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
That centre hole is a crucial part in the way the dust collection
works... very clever.
On Feb 3, 1:54=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
> > On 2/3/2011 11:21 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> >> I totally agree. One should have both.<G> =A0If I had to have only one=
,
> >> it'd be the 5"
>
> >> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
> >>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
>
> > That's not a sander, that's a farkn' hoovercraft.
>
> It's a tool alright, but those of us with menopausal wives might see othe=
r
> uses for something like this...
>
> So, kill me - I'm just trying to think "out of the box..."
>
Keep that up and you'll be thinking inside a box.. with handles... and
the word 'wake' won't be part of the word 'awake'...
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
>
>> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
>> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
>> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
>
> It's relative.
>
> Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
> aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
>
> I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
> bring myself to use that word in that context!
>
> :)
We are old school and we stick to what is right. If you look up the words
Quality and Control you do not come up with a definition that describes what
today's interpretation is. Today's meaning is simply a way of
hiding/disguising unacceptable.
"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> (And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an argument
> that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all qulaity as
> well.)
One of the problems with not supporting local business even if they don't
offer more to you than the internet is that they help support your
community. If they go out of business or leave your area you no longer get
their tax support and typically a Doller General takes their place and that
is followed by people that think Dollar General is high priced. And those
people typically bring the value of the neighbor hood down. It becomes a
downward spiral and not a great place to live.
And as a side note, I believe that I have sanded 4 complete sets of
installed kitchen cabinets that Swingman and I have built and installed.
The first kitchen I used his Bosch ROS, the second I started with the Bosch
and finished with my PC right angle ROS. Both of these jobs took 4-5 hours
each and there was dust floating everywhere. Clean up took extra time.
About 3 years ago I started using my 5" Festool Rotex with the CT2200 Vac
attached. That job took 2~3 hours with no dust. The last kitchen had the
same results. No clean up on either.
IIRC the first two kitchens were a bit smaller than the last two.
3 grits of paper were used to sand each kitchen completely 3 times.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Leon" wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again.
>>> Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once
>>> mounted, makes the joint line disappear.
>> -------------------------------
>> Good point and it raises a question in my mind.
>>
>> Since both sides of the face frame are sanded smooth, how much a problem
>> of joint line mismatch do you think remains at final ass'y?
>
>
> It can be sigificant and especially if you are joining 4~5 cabinets along
> a wall run. Typically a wall is not straight or with out in or out
> bulges. While shims will remove most of the problems with uneven floors
> and walls you simply cannot depend on them to fis every thing. We tend to
> attach the units to each other and shimmed to the floor and walls as best
> as we can. Then we finish sand all the joints including those on the
> cabinet and the ones there the cabinets are joined.
>
> Basically regardless of how well the face frames may be presanded, after
> joining a particular face frame and cabinet to another and then mount and
> shim the cabinets there can be some shift between the cabinets, it is
> normally not much but it does happen. Sanding once everything is in place
> makes everything appear more as a single unit.
>
On 2/5/2011 8:12 PM, Han wrote:
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> The best tools you can buy will save you money in the long run ...
>
> Now what about the new rotex, the 90? Is that just another even smaller
> version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150? I think the
> 90 is ~3.5", 125 = 5" 150 = 6".
> Somewhere I saw a price of ~$650 for it plus a dustextractor, but the combo
> description wasn't clear to me, and it in't available until March, IIRC.
Although I just lurk there, thanks to NewsRack on my iPad, FOG (the
Festool Owners Group) is full of glowing reports from Europe from those
who have hands on with it.
Check out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBlwS2-p6X8
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/2/11 3:42 PM, dpb wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
>>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS ...
>>
>> I thought it was closer to 2X that... ?
>>
>> --
>
> Google Products search shows it at $170, everywhere.
>
> There are a few different models....
> <http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2006177/FESTOOL-Random-Orbit-Sander.aspx>
You have to be specific as the 125 more describes a round 5" sander, not one
in particular as indicated below.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2006180/17571/Festool-Rotex-Dual-Mode-Sander-RO-125-5-Dia.aspx
The Rotex indicated above is in a class all by itself as far as speed and
quality of output and the Rotex is the unit that Swingman, Robatoy, and I
are most always talking about.
On 2/5/2011 10:15 PM, Han wrote:
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
>>> Now what about the new rotex, the 90? Is that just another even
>>> smaller version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150?
>>> I think the 90 is ~3.5", 125 = 5" 150 = 6".
Comparison chart:
http://rotex.festoolusa.com/sanders/models/comparison/
--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 2/5/2011 7:28 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> I remember one of the support engineers walking into a meeting at
> Enormous Aerospace with a box of parts that had our part numbers and our
> logos and our QC marks and all sorts of other identification on them,
> that had absolutely no resemblance to the parts that we produced that
> bore those marks. I mean in some cases they were so far off that it was
> like seeing a rock with a Bosch label and logos and the identification
> plate for one of their jigsaws attached. The things were ostensibly
> spares for some of our older equipment and had been returned by
> customers who had bought them as surplus from third party suppliers.
> The issue at hand was whether we had produced them and one glance said
> "no".
>
> At that point things moved to a higher level, with the FAA and the FBI
> getting involved and all that was way above my pay grade so I have no
> idea what the outcome was, but presumably whoever was making these
> things was shut down.
The problem, it appears, is now those at the higher level have figured
out how to sidestep recriminations by "outsourcing".
... I think I'll walk, or drive myself, to the next gig, thank you. ;)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
> I will say this, if you're in the woodworking business in some fashion, it
> is highly unlikely you will EVER regret any Festool purchase.
One caveat. You'll regret the initial cost...
.
.
.
For a little while.
"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
Snip
>
> Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you live
> or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?
I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other than
availability.
While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer that
every one charges the same price so that you know that you are not paying
more than somewhere else.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/3/2011 3:03 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Robatoy" wrote:
>>
>>> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
>> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Just not big enough.
>>
>> Run face frames thru the drum sander and not only get a better job but
>> also save time.
>
> Good trick if you could do it ... final face frame sanding on a cabinet
> run is generally done after installation.
>
In any case, cross grain sanding marks tend to make things look bad.
"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
> Leon.
> I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
> (proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.
>
> Max
>
>
The disk is special, however whether it is proprietaty or not I do not know.
I found the pricing of the Festool paper to be quite reasonable and it is
top quality. So far I have only used the Ruben grade papers in the 120,
150, and 180 grits.
If you use this paper and equipment with a vacuum, let me warn you that
knowing when to change out worn out paper is something new to learn. In the
past I relied on the dust not building as fast, there is no longer any of
that to see. In the past I would look at the sand paper to see how clogged
it was getting, new and worn out sand paper usually look the same now.
My first indicator that the paper is shot is the one that always worked, is
it still cutting like a new sheet. Have a new piece close by, drag you
finger across the new and then the old. If the old does not grab at your
finger like the new it is time to replace it. You will find however that
this paper tends to last longer because it usually stays clean and
unclogged.
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
I did notice what hes said, quality control. There is no quality to
control. I would call it a standard control.
;~) If every hamburger you bought from a specific store had sand in it and
every time had the exact same of sand in it would you say they have a good
quality control? IMHO Quality Control does have a minimum standard that is
implied.
In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...
>
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > dpb wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >>> Several years back when I was in the automotive business I ran a service
> >>> department for an Oldsmobile dealership. We had a QC for all vehicles
> >>> that were serviced or repaired in our shop. Every car was inspected to
> >>> insure that everything was done correctly and 100% of the vehicles were
> >>> expected to pass. Now by todays watered down expectation of the QC term
> >>> perhaps 75% of the vehicles would be expected to pass QC and that might
> >>> be an acceptable failure rate. Basically QC no longer stands for
> >>> quality as it once did.
> > ...
> >
> > And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
> > cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
> > achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
>
>
> Our QC goal was 100% correct when the vehicle went out the door. QC
> rejected about 12% and returned the vehicle to the technician to rectify
> before the customer took possession. In addition we had a satisfaction
> survey with immediate follow up phone calls to each and every customer that
> had their vehicle serviced. Our satisfaction rating was ALWAYS above 95%
> achieved and we encouraged the customer to return the vehicle if there was a
> problem, and if necessary offered a free loaner car to use while we
> corrected the problem. Seldom did we see a vehicle return with our prior
> knowledge from our caller that it was coming back in.
>
> Was that a profitable business plan? Yes it was. We had more work than we
> knew what to do with. Each week during the spring and summer we stopped
> taking in customers on Wednesday for the week. Typically we would write up
> 100~125 vehicles each Monday morning before the lines ended. By Wednesday
> afternoon we would have written 300+ vehicles for the week. I got paid
> really really well.
>
> Quality service and products served right will always be profitable. To
> expect less of yourself and your service or product for the sake of trying
> to increase profit margins will be a loosing proposition in the long run.
>
> By today's definition of QC it is no wonder that businesses are in the shape
> that they are in and it is a small wonder why the foreign competition has
> been gaining steadily for many many years. QC is now better defined as a
> level of acceptable incompetence or inferiority. It is a shame that "most"
> businesses today don't know that any thing less than 100% satisfaction of
> its product is not a good thing, but then we live in an immediate
> gratification society. So you can continue to explain how your QC does not
> stand for perfection rather a level of tolerable acceptance and you can
> continue to wonder why that ain't working.
You are conflating "quality control" with "zero defects". You can do
that if you want to and you make make points with the peanut gallery but
anybody who knows anything about industrial processes knows that he's
got the right of it.
QC is a process, zero defects is a goal. One generally has to run a QC
process to achieve zero defects but it is not necessary that zero
defects the the result of the QC process.
As to the notion thathe can continue to wonder why QC at a level less
than zero defects isn't working, you really need to demonstrate _where_
it isn't working. Show us an industry where there is a leader that
achieves zero-defects and has slaughtered all their competition.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> Swingman wrote:
> > On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
> >
> >> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
> >> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
> >> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
> >
> > It's relative.
> >
> > Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
> > aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
> >
> > I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
> > bring myself to use that word in that context!
> >
> > :)
>
> Chuckle...
>
> Seriously, of course some applications call for much higher quality
> levels. What I've seen of the failures in the aircraft maintenance
> aren't QA failures but actual fraud.
I remember one of the support engineers walking into a meeting at
Enormous Aerospace with a box of parts that had our part numbers and our
logos and our QC marks and all sorts of other identification on them,
that had absolutely no resemblance to the parts that we produced that
bore those marks. I mean in some cases they were so far off that it was
like seeing a rock with a Bosch label and logos and the identification
plate for one of their jigsaws attached. The things were ostensibly
spares for some of our older equipment and had been returned by
customers who had bought them as surplus from third party suppliers.
The issue at hand was whether we had produced them and one glance said
"no".
At that point things moved to a higher level, with the FAA and the FBI
getting involved and all that was way above my pay grade so I have no
idea what the outcome was, but presumably whoever was making these
things was shut down.
On 2/5/2011 6:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/5/11 6:35 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/karlcaillouet/FestoolStuff?authkey=Gv1sRgCL7kz_2FisWTfg#5569251562018543410
>
> I hate you.
LOL ... as the say: "that there's hard earned money, son." :)
<unfortunately, I've got the aches and pains to prove every penny of it>
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" wrote:
>> So's a Big Mac ... if I couldn't do better than fast fast food quality
>> work, I'd not do it in the first place. :)
> ----------------------------
> McDonalds can take care of themselves, but from what I've seen of the
> fast food industry by and large they do a pretty decent job of maintaining
> quality control.
>
Is there a such thing as "quality" in the fast food industry? I think about
all the preservitives used to make the food taste the same each time you go
in... and then I try not to think about what my son's friends that have
worked in that industry have told me about what you don't want to know.
They are kids and don't eat where they work. Apparently it is like sausage,
it all tastes good until you find out or watch it being made.
I will agree that the fast food industry has a consistant standard but I
would not really consider it a quality standard.
On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:
>
> My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
> Leon.
> I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
> (proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.
Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no comparable
Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.
I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to
cut out some paper dolls couldn't have had it. :)
Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high
quality abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of
the paper when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work
done with fewer sheet of abrasives.
That's about the best I can do ... check out the FOG forum, ask the
question, and there is little doubt your will get much more informative
answers.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 2/2/2011 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>
> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
I have a Bosch 6" that doesn't fit your criteria, but is a very usable tool.
In 5", I have a Festool Rotex125, but you don't want to hear about that.
There is no comparison between the two in quality and functionality.
That said, the Bosch stood me in good stead for ten years, before I knew
what excellence in a ROS was all about.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
>
>
> As I mentioned to Robatoy, I'm dubious about the need for the aggressive
> action of the Rotex series. (but I'm holding that option)
> As for dust extraction I have two of these:
> http://tinyurl.com/63tl88t
I found that I use the agrssive mode more often than the fine mode. So I
would not be concerned about that if you want to save time sanding.
Basically the agressive mode speeds sanding. You can sand with the typical
ROS for 30 minutes or the Rotex in agressive mode for 5~10 minutes, you
simply move the sander more quickly to accomplish the same thing. And of
course if you need to remove more material in certain spots it is very very
capable of keeping up with a belt sander with out having to change sanders.
At the very least give one a work out at your local dealer or give the 30
day try at home a run for its money.
>
> They have a "remote" on/off transmitter. I use one with my Festool TS75.
> It works perfectly. I feel confident that it will work with the ROS.
> So how well would you say the 150/5 compares to a Bosch 3727DVS? (which I
> have)
> I don't have a woodworking "business" but I do quite a bit of work "by
> request" for family, friends and those who might become aware of my work.
> Under that circumstance I'm not under any kind of production deadline but
> I have a real appreciation for tools that "do the job right".
>
> Many thanks for your input.
>
> Max
On 2/4/2011 3:47 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/4/11 3:21 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
> I always thought it would end up looking better to hand it all as one
> piece.
> Hope you have helpers. :-)
>
>>
>> But you're right (if I understand your intent correctly), a "v" groove
>> along the join can certainly hide those kind of irregularities, and is a
>> legitimate device to do so ... problem is that you need to carry it
>> throughout the installation as a "design feature" in order for it to be
>> effective because it certainly changes the look and feel.
>>
>
> I don't have a way with words, so this is what I'm talking about...
> exaggerated, of course.
>
> <https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/X_-QpY8vxRa1wKSSKBlFCA?>
Now I got you. AAMOF, I do that very thing (undercut) when scribing a
FF to wall, when necessary.
That said, in all the cabinetry I've done down through the years I can't
recall a single situation where it was remotely necessary when screwing
two adjoining FF's together.
That's not to say it won't happen on the next job.
--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dpb wrote:
> ...
>
>>> Several years back when I was in the automotive business I ran a service
>>> department for an Oldsmobile dealership. We had a QC for all vehicles
>>> that were serviced or repaired in our shop. Every car was inspected to
>>> insure that everything was done correctly and 100% of the vehicles were
>>> expected to pass. Now by todays watered down expectation of the QC term
>>> perhaps 75% of the vehicles would be expected to pass QC and that might
>>> be an acceptable failure rate. Basically QC no longer stands for
>>> quality as it once did.
> ...
>
> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
Our QC goal was 100% correct when the vehicle went out the door. QC
rejected about 12% and returned the vehicle to the technician to rectify
before the customer took possession. In addition we had a satisfaction
survey with immediate follow up phone calls to each and every customer that
had their vehicle serviced. Our satisfaction rating was ALWAYS above 95%
achieved and we encouraged the customer to return the vehicle if there was a
problem, and if necessary offered a free loaner car to use while we
corrected the problem. Seldom did we see a vehicle return with our prior
knowledge from our caller that it was coming back in.
Was that a profitable business plan? Yes it was. We had more work than we
knew what to do with. Each week during the spring and summer we stopped
taking in customers on Wednesday for the week. Typically we would write up
100~125 vehicles each Monday morning before the lines ended. By Wednesday
afternoon we would have written 300+ vehicles for the week. I got paid
really really well.
Quality service and products served right will always be profitable. To
expect less of yourself and your service or product for the sake of trying
to increase profit margins will be a loosing proposition in the long run.
By today's definition of QC it is no wonder that businesses are in the shape
that they are in and it is a small wonder why the foreign competition has
been gaining steadily for many many years. QC is now better defined as a
level of acceptable incompetence or inferiority. It is a shame that "most"
businesses today don't know that any thing less than 100% satisfaction of
its product is not a good thing, but then we live in an immediate
gratification society. So you can continue to explain how your QC does not
stand for perfection rather a level of tolerable acceptance and you can
continue to wonder why that ain't working.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
>>>> I did notice what hes said, quality control. There is no quality to
>>>> control. I would call it a standard control.
>>>>
>>>> ;~) If every hamburger you bought from a specific store had sand in it
>>>> and every time had the exact same of sand in it would you say they have
>>>> a good quality control? ...
>>> If the corporate and/or store specification stated that was the proper
>>> amount of sand, yes, that would be good quality control.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> Well let's say that the sand was not intended ...
>
> As stated, if it isn't in the specification (or more rigorously, if the
> specification says it isn't supposed to be there), that's a failure.
>
>> ... however they could not remidy the situation and the consumer is stuck
>> with it and accepts it.
>
> That's outside of QC purview as to whether the end user accepts it or not.
> Proper implementation of QC would, however, prevent non-compliant product
> from entering the product chain (in rigorous compliance, to the exclusion
> of having any product, yes).
>
>>
>> Or lets say the hamburgers sit on the shelf and drys out until the next
>> rush of customers but a trip to the steamer to reintroduce moisture and
>> heat to the burger is a standard procedure. Is that "quality" control
>> even though the burger is not as fresh as the ones currently being
>> assembled and immediately sold but no one can tell the difference in
>> taste?
> ...
>
> Of course, if it is, as I believe you're postulating, part of a process.
>
> Again, you're confusing/confounding the _level_ of the quality standard w/
> the process of QC to a standard.
I understand the concept "QC" however I believe that expectations have been
watered down so much that the term Quality Control no longer means what it
was probably was intended to be. QC now days is to maintain a certain
standard. Many years back it was to insure perfection as much as that was
possible.
Several years back when I was in the automotive business I ran a service
department for an Oldsmobile dealership. We had a QC for all vehicles that
were serviced or repaired in our shop. Every car was inspected to insure
that everything was done correctly and 100% of the vehicles were expected to
pass. Now by todays watered down expectation of the QC term perhaps 75% of
the vehicles would be expected to pass QC and that might be an acceptable
failure rate. Basically QC no longer stands for quality as it once did.
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> The best tools you can buy will save you money in the long run ...
Now what about the new rotex, the 90? Is that just another even smaller
version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150? I think the
90 is ~3.5", 125 = 5" 150 = 6".
Somewhere I saw a price of ~$650 for it plus a dustextractor, but the combo
description wasn't clear to me, and it in't available until March, IIRC.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 2/5/2011 8:12 PM, Han wrote:
>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> The best tools you can buy will save you money in the long run ...
>>
>> Now what about the new rotex, the 90? Is that just another even
>> smaller version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150?
>> I think the 90 is ~3.5", 125 = 5" 150 = 6".
>> Somewhere I saw a price of ~$650 for it plus a dustextractor, but the
>> combo description wasn't clear to me, and it in't available until
>> March, IIRC.
>
> Although I just lurk there, thanks to NewsRack on my iPad, FOG (the
> Festool Owners Group) is full of glowing reports from Europe from
> those who have hands on with it.
>
> Check out:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBlwS2-p6X8
That's one of the reasons I'm asking the question.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using
> the sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet door
> type sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will be
> better. Keep in mind that because the Rotex sands so much more
> quickly it does cover a log of area much faster than a like sized
> competitor. IMHO the 125 is much more versatile in usage.
>
I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125 mm.
Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I get a good
deal on a combo with the CT26?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using
>>> the sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet
>>> door type sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will
>>> be better. Keep in mind that because the Rotex sands so much more
>>> quickly it does cover a log of area much faster than a like sized
>>> competitor. IMHO the 125 is much more versatile in usage.
>>>
>>
>> I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125
>> mm. Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I
>> get a good deal on a combo with the CT26?
>
>
> Festool normally has a package deal program going that gets you a
> discount if you buy a Vac at the same time you buy a Domino, Sander,
> or Track Saw. There may be other deals available. I got my Vac with
> the Domino.
>
> Also Festool normally has a better introductory price the first few
> months on top of the combination deal with the Vac. You might get an
> even better deal if you buy the 90 when it first comes out.
>
> When I bought the Domino within the first months of introduction and
> the Vac I got a sizeable discount, IIRC > $200. YMMV.
>
> Keep in mind that the 150, 125, and 90 indicate pad size in mm's.
>
> The 150 is approximately 6" in diameter, the 125 is approximately 5"
> in diameter, the 90 will be approximately 3 1/2" in diameter.
Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you live
or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
> Snip
>
>>
>> Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you
>> live or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?
>
>
> I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
> advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other
> than availability.
>
> While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer
> that every one charges the same price so that you know that you are
> not paying more than somewhere else.
That's what I would prefer to, Leon. I went to see a "local" hardware
store that has an upper floor with all kinds of demo stuff, including
lots of Festool. Salespeople at Godwin Hardware were very nice and
helpful. It's almost 6 miles away, but we do have roads here in Bergen
county :-)}, and they're even cleared by now. I just have to get over
the stratospheric prices. I'm just a beginning amateur after all ...
(And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an argument
that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all qulaity as
well.)
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> (And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an
>> argument that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all
>> qulaity as well.)
>
>
> One of the problems with not supporting local business even if they
> don't offer more to you than the internet is that they help support
> your community. If they go out of business or leave your area you no
> longer get their tax support and typically a Doller General takes
> their place and that is followed by people that think Dollar General
> is high priced. And those people typically bring the value of the
> neighbor hood down. It becomes a downward spiral and not a great
> place to live.
Absolutely right Leon. We had a nice local hardware store. Not as fancy
as Godwin's, but within walking distance. It's gone now. First the
owner was "forced" (I don't know the details) to switch to a larger store
50 or so feet away in the same strip mall, so his old store could become
a Panera's. I am not sure the amount of business warranted the store,
but I went there as often as I could. The owner also had cancer, and
recently died, upon which the store was permanently closed, reinforcing
the impression it was no longer viable.
So now I have to go 6 miles rather than 550 yards ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? <grin>
> My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
> other ROSs.
> Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
> cost.
> What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
> I've been looking at the 150:
> http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
>
> I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is
> worth the money..........I'll spring.
> Thanks,
>
> Max
>
Not sure which you are talking about, Festool uses the 150 to describe the
size of a round pad. They make at least two with a 150 in the description.
If you are talking about the right angle Rotex, about $500 I would say yes
it is worth the difference if you can afford one. They CAN sand 3~4 times
more quickly than the typical ROS and they can sand as finely as perhaps a
finish sander. Coupled with a Festool vac they have SUPERIOR dust
collection. That in itself will save you time and trips to the doctor.
Nothing about them feels compromised or cheap.
I have no experience with the less expensive 150 ROS sanders.
What makes the so much better? Built in Germany, not farmed out to be built
cheaper by a 3rd world country. No risk guarantee, use it for 30 days and
if not satisfied return it, and that is followed by a 3 year warranty.
I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using the
sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet door type
sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will be better. Keep in
mind that because the Rotex sands so much more quickly it does cover a log
of area much faster than a like sized competitor. IMHO the 125 is much
more versatile in usage.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I wrote:
>
>> Run face frames thru the drum sander and not only get a better job but
>> also save time.
> -------------------------------------
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Good trick if you could do it ... final face frame sanding on a cabinet
>> run is generally done after installation.
> ----------------------------
> Last trip I made to the drum sanding shop, had to wait for the guy to
> finish a load of face frames that were being installed the next day.
>
> Evidently finish sand was good enough for that job.
>
> Lew
>
>
The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again.
Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once mounted,
makes the joint line disappear.
On Feb 2, 3:24=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/2/11 12:22 PM, Robatoy wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 12:55 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >> On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>
> >>> dpb wrote:
> >>>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>
> >>> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>
> >> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
> >> pleased with it, so far. =A0It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-ha=
nd,
> >> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>
> >> =A0 =A0-MIKE-
>
> > It is hard to argue with 50 dollars, even if the performance is only
> > at 75% to that of a Festool. ( 75% of 5 x 8 hour days, will give you
> > an extra day off every week.)
> > In most cases a unit like that will do the job.
> > If the 'job' is doing a lot of 'jobs', the extra spent on a Festool or
> > other genuine pro products, quickly becomes a wise and pleasant
> > investment.
> > That's not to say that Leon's desire to sand rather than sleep isn't
> > genuine, but even a Festool sander doesn't quite make the cut, so to
> > speak.
> > Maybe that frickin' Mirka might...18 amps.. EIGHTEEN !! Bet the
> > frickin' thing smells nice too...dammit.
>
> > If the 6" Ridgid in its recent incarnation is any indication, the 5"
> > will probably suck too.
> > IMHO, you really can't go wrong with Bosch or Milwaukee in most cases.
>
> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS and hook it up to a shop vac.
> Until I have "someone else" paying for it, I can't justify.
>
Fair enough. really.
On Feb 4, 12:27=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
>
> I did notice what hes said, quality control. =A0There is no quality to
> control. =A0I would call it a standard control.
>
> ;~) =A0If every hamburger you bought from a specific store had sand in it=
and
> every time had the exact same of sand in it would you say they have a goo=
d
> quality control? =A0IMHO Quality Control does have a minimum standard tha=
t is
> implied.
...and they control the quality to make sure they never rise above
that implied standard...<G>
On 2/5/2011 6:13 PM, Max wrote:
> So how well would you say the 150/5 compares to a Bosch 3727DVS? (which
> I have)
I can partially help you there ... I have a Bosch 3727DEVS, which was my
go to sander for face frame and panel work before I got the Rotex125,
and always used after using the belt sander ... which I no longer need
with the Rotex125.
There is NO comparison, although the Bosch stood me in good stead for a
number of years, it has been sitting on the shelf and may not ever be
used again ... I won't even bother to turn it on with this less than
five feet away:
https://picasaweb.google.com/karlcaillouet/FestoolStuff?authkey=Gv1sRgCL7kz_2FisWTfg#5569251562018543410
... except for any situation where I might put the Festool sanders in
harms way.
:)
> I don't have a woodworking "business" but I do quite a bit of work "by
> request" for family, friends and those who might become aware of my work.
> Under that circumstance I'm not under any kind of production deadline
> but I have a real appreciation for tools that "do the job right".
My mantra ... I never quibble when it comes to springing for the tools
needed to get the job done. Skimp there and you negate most of the
satisfaction, as well as a good deal of the time and expense of getting
any project completed.
The best tools you can buy will save you money in the long run ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 2/2/2011 5:27 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> Apparently Festool has come out with a new sander and dust extraction
> system,
>
> What are your thoughts on them?
The new sander is the RO-90 ... check it out on youtube. Dealers are
taking orders on them but they either just arrived here in the
US/Canada, or will shortly.
Awesome piece of machinery, a lot of dynamite in a small package.
> Do you feel old fashioned and behind the times yet? ;-)
There's always bigger and better no matter what ... always a better bass
player, guitar player, drummer, somebody with a bigger deck, etc.
wherever you go, so you learn to get used to it. :)
IOW, do/buy something you get satisfaction out of and resist looking back.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:55:56 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Anybody have current suggestions? Have used the PC 333/334's for years
>but they're now 343/344 and 8-hole pad instead of 5.
>
>Anybody know if anyone's making a 5-hole any more? I am _not_ wanting
>to have to stock another batch of paper at this point w/ the amount of
>5-hole on hand.
>
>Anybody know if the Milwaukee 6021 (or any other suggested) pads will
>interchange w/ the P-C three-screw mounting? Can still get the
>replacement pads (or at least could a few months back); I'll swap 'em
>out if necessary.
>
>OBTW, Festool/etc. is not in the price range for any suggestions... :)
Bosch. But only has 8 hole pads..., so, maybe ...
I don't see why you couldn't take any vendor's pad and adapt it to a
new sander by drilling holes through the rubber pad to match the
sander.
Or for that matter I think you could take an 8-hole pad and add or
modify holes to make it work with 5 and 8 hole paper. I have some 3M
sandpaper with elongated holes so it will work with 5 or 8 hole pads,
that would make a nice template.
On 2/3/2011 4:13 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> Run face frames thru the drum sander and not only get a better job
>> but
>> also save time.
> -------------------------------------
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Good trick if you could do it ... final face frame sanding on a
>> cabinet run is generally done after installation.
> ----------------------------
> Last trip I made to the drum sanding shop, had to wait for the guy to
> finish a load of face frames that were being installed the next day.
>
> Evidently finish sand was good enough for that job.
So's a Big Mac ... if I couldn't do better than fast fast food quality
work, I'd not do it in the first place. :)
Most rely on the painter to finish sand an installation. I do not. We
always do our own finish sanding on our work, from drawers to the entire
install.
Simply put, we owe it to the painstaking effort we put into the project
before ever getting to that point.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> The best tools you can buy will save you money in the long run ...
>
> Now what about the new rotex, the 90? Is that just another even smaller
> version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150? I think the
> 90 is ~3.5", 125 = 5" 150 = 6".
> Somewhere I saw a price of ~$650 for it plus a dustextractor, but the
> combo
> description wasn't clear to me, and it in't available until March, IIRC.
IIRC the 90 will add the feature of osculating to the mix of modes,
basically if becomes a clone Fein Multimaster sander also.
On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>
> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>
I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
and the built in dust collection is decent.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Jim Weisgram wrote:
...
> Bosch. But only has 8 hole pads..., so, maybe ...
>
> I don't see why you couldn't take any vendor's pad and adapt it to a
> new sander by drilling holes through the rubber pad to match the
> sander.
There's a possibility perhaps, yes. I've not tried actually modifying
one; not sure about whether there's any structure around the mounting
holes specifically or not. That would be about my only concern other
than just the hassle of doing so...
> Or for that matter I think you could take an 8-hole pad and add or
> modify holes to make it work with 5 and 8 hole paper. I have some 3M
> sandpaper with elongated holes so it will work with 5 or 8 hole pads,
> that would make a nice template.
PC has introduced pads for theirs that have slots to adapt for either I
see in some looking at options yesterday...If go that route I'll
undoubtedly by those at same time.
Thanks for the rec on Bosch...
--
Swingman wrote:
> On 2/2/2011 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>>
>> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>
> I have a Bosch 6" that doesn't fit your criteria, but is a very usable
> tool.
>
> In 5", I have a Festool Rotex125, but you don't want to hear about that.
>
> There is no comparison between the two in quality and functionality.
>
> That said, the Bosch stood me in good stead for ten years, before I knew
> what excellence in a ROS was all about.
But would you risk the investment in the Festool on exterior siding in
preparation for painting on old barn w/ hired help also a possibility?
It's quite an abusive life and could go thru 8 or may 10 of the PC's for
the loss of one light green one... :)
Owing to it being T&G cove and only 3" width, the dust-collecting
ability isn't any advantage because there's not enough flat surface for
even the 5" to ride on and in order to get into the cove one is always
using an edge and so adding a lot of lateral movement as well. I'm too
fastidious to put a tool of that type thru that kind of abuse even if it
weren't the dollar output itself. :)
OTOH, if were in the shop doing your kind of work any more I'd consider
it a likely choice; wish there had been such a thing available wayback
while doing the ante- and early post-bellum restoration/rehab work in
Lynchburg I've spoken of previously lo! those many years ago...
I'll look at the Bosch offerings and see what is there as somebody else
mentioned them as well.
--
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>>
>> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>>
>
> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
> and the built in dust collection is decent.
OK, thanks, I'll take a look...as I replied to Swingman, the primary
application doesn't lend to dust collection but the numb-hand syndrome
avoidance is good as the use time is extensive when get going--can spend
days at a time doing nothing but prep work. Given the barn is 66x38 and
is 40-ft to the ridge, there's a lot of siding...
We got paint on a fair amount of it earlier, but unfortunately despite
all the effort we did put in, there are places that show it still isn't
sticking so besides the end that wasn't gotten to there are quite
sizable amounts that will have to be attacked again. Discouraging
considering both the time and money...the paint bill alone was
$8k...especially when it looked so good while doing it--used wash,
sanded, and oxalic acid that left the old (ca 1918) yellow pine looking
as bright as new. But, as much time and effort as was, it was
impossible to get every inch and some areas just weren't _quite_ good
enough. :(
--
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
>> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
>> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>
Newbe question Mike. Would you use that sander for the last treatment
on a piece you were going to stain and/or varnish? Obviously I don't
have one.
Bill
On 2/2/11 12:22 PM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 2, 12:55 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>>
>>> dpb wrote:
>>>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>>
>>> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>>
>> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
>> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
>> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>>
>> -MIKE-
>
> It is hard to argue with 50 dollars, even if the performance is only
> at 75% to that of a Festool. ( 75% of 5 x 8 hour days, will give you
> an extra day off every week.)
> In most cases a unit like that will do the job.
> If the 'job' is doing a lot of 'jobs', the extra spent on a Festool or
> other genuine pro products, quickly becomes a wise and pleasant
> investment.
> That's not to say that Leon's desire to sand rather than sleep isn't
> genuine, but even a Festool sander doesn't quite make the cut, so to
> speak.
> Maybe that frickin' Mirka might...18 amps.. EIGHTEEN !! Bet the
> frickin' thing smells nice too...dammit.
>
> If the 6" Ridgid in its recent incarnation is any indication, the 5"
> will probably suck too.
> IMHO, you really can't go wrong with Bosch or Milwaukee in most cases.
If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
$170 on that Festool 125 ROS and hook it up to a shop vac.
Until I have "someone else" paying for it, I can't justify.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/2/11 2:23 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
>>> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
>>> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>>
>
> Newbe question Mike. Would you use that sander for the last treatment on
> a piece you were going to stain and/or varnish? Obviously I don't have one.
>
> Bill
I'm no expert on finishing, but if you're talking about the final
sanding of bare wood, yes. I wish I had this on my last project I
stained (dyed).
I would not use any power sander for sanding in-between coats or in
between stain & topcoat, however. There may be guys who have enough
finesse to do that without sanding though the stain or topcoat layer,
but I'm not one of them.
As I posted a few months ago, I discovered that hand rubbing with brown
paper bag works great for that.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/2/11 2:23 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
>>>> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
>>>> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>>>
>>
>> Newbe question Mike. Would you use that sander for the last treatment on
>> a piece you were going to stain and/or varnish? Obviously I don't have
>> one.
>>
>> Bill
>
> I'm no expert on finishing, but if you're talking about the final
> sanding of bare wood, yes. I wish I had this on my last project I
> stained (dyed).
>
> I would not use any power sander for sanding in-between coats or in
> between stain & topcoat, however. There may be guys who have enough
> finesse to do that without sanding though the stain or topcoat layer,
> but I'm not one of them.
>
> As I posted a few months ago, I discovered that hand rubbing with brown
> paper bag works great for that.
>
Thank you very much!
Bill
On 2/2/11 2:35 PM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 2, 3:24 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2/2/11 12:22 PM, Robatoy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 2, 12:55 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 2/2/11 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>>
>>>>> dpb wrote:
>>>>>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>>
>>>>> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>>
>>>> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
>>>> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
>>>> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>>
>>>> -MIKE-
>>
>>> It is hard to argue with 50 dollars, even if the performance is only
>>> at 75% to that of a Festool. ( 75% of 5 x 8 hour days, will give you
>>> an extra day off every week.)
>>> In most cases a unit like that will do the job.
>>> If the 'job' is doing a lot of 'jobs', the extra spent on a Festool or
>>> other genuine pro products, quickly becomes a wise and pleasant
>>> investment.
>>> That's not to say that Leon's desire to sand rather than sleep isn't
>>> genuine, but even a Festool sander doesn't quite make the cut, so to
>>> speak.
>>> Maybe that frickin' Mirka might...18 amps.. EIGHTEEN !! Bet the
>>> frickin' thing smells nice too...dammit.
>>
>>> If the 6" Ridgid in its recent incarnation is any indication, the 5"
>>> will probably suck too.
>>> IMHO, you really can't go wrong with Bosch or Milwaukee in most cases.
>>
>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS and hook it up to a shop vac.
>> Until I have "someone else" paying for it, I can't justify.
>>
> Fair enough. really.
>
Or if I had a really sweet gig, right now. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/2/11 2:47 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/2/11 2:23 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I just picked up a DeWalt D26451 for a bit over 50 bucks and I'm very
>>>>> pleased with it, so far. It's pretty quiet, doesn't give me numb-hand,
>>>>> and the built in dust collection is decent.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Newbe question Mike. Would you use that sander for the last treatment on
>>> a piece you were going to stain and/or varnish? Obviously I don't have
>>> one.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> I'm no expert on finishing, but if you're talking about the final
>> sanding of bare wood, yes. I wish I had this on my last project I
>> stained (dyed).
>>
>> I would not use any power sander for sanding in-between coats or in
>> between stain & topcoat, however. There may be guys who have enough
>> finesse to do that without sanding though the stain or topcoat layer,
>> but I'm not one of them.
>>
>> As I posted a few months ago, I discovered that hand rubbing with brown
>> paper bag works great for that.
>>
>
> Thank you very much!
>
> Bill
>
Just don't blame me. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/2/11 3:42 PM, dpb wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> ...
>
>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS ...
>
> I thought it was closer to 2X that... ?
>
> --
Google Products search shows it at $170, everywhere.
There are a few different models....
<http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2006177/FESTOOL-Random-Orbit-Sander.aspx>
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
dpb wrote:
> Anybody have current suggestions? Have used the PC 333/334's for years
> but they're now 343/344 and 8-hole pad instead of 5.
...
OK, thanks for the input...
After having done some more looking, I've determined I can still get all
the parts need to rebuild 3 of the old ones for about the price of
slightly under the price of a new PC or that ilk. So, yesterday evening
I ordered the stuff other than the bearings I can get locally and
started teardown assembly line in waiting...
The anti-rotation ring on the dust shroud/collector on these when used
so hard/long gradually wears through the case and gets annoyingly loose
as a result. I ordered two sets of rings and found somebody actually
had a lot of 3 cases (NOS) on eBay so I've go them coming, too, as well
as one armature and a few other odds'n'ends. Meanwhile, I'm looking
into a couple of modifications of these cases and shrouds by fitting a
piece of metal strap in lieu of the plastic wing. That'll have more
surface area instead of the more or less sharp edge of the thin plastic
piece. There's a cavity in the outer case where the wear occurs that
looks like it could be filled in as well.
Three working old ones plus the two newer replacements on hand _should_
get through the coming spring flurry at which I'm hoping I'll get the
rest of the prep done and paint on before really hot weather (in between
spring planting and well before wheat harvest, of course).
--
CW wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 2/3/2011 3:03 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Robatoy" wrote:
>>>
>>>> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
>>> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Just not big enough.
>>>
>>> Run face frames thru the drum sander and not only get a better job but
>>> also save time.
>> Good trick if you could do it ... final face frame sanding on a cabinet
>> run is generally done after installation.
>>
> In any case, cross grain sanding marks tend to make things look bad.
But you'll see 'em on many commercial boxes... :(
--
On 2/4/11 11:36 AM, Leon wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Leon" wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again.
>>> Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once
>>> mounted, makes the joint line disappear.
>> -------------------------------
>> Good point and it raises a question in my mind.
>>
>> Since both sides of the face frame are sanded smooth, how much a problem
>> of joint line mismatch do you think remains at final ass'y?
>
>
> It can be sigificant and especially if you are joining 4~5 cabinets along a
> wall run. Typically a wall is not straight or with out in or out bulges.
> While shims will remove most of the problems with uneven floors and walls
> you simply cannot depend on them to fis every thing. We tend to attach the
> units to each other and shimmed to the floor and walls as best as we can.
> Then we finish sand all the joints including those on the cabinet and the
> ones there the cabinets are joined.
>
> Basically regardless of how well the face frames may be presanded, after
> joining a particular face frame and cabinet to another and then mount and
> shim the cabinets there can be some shift between the cabinets, it is
> normally not much but it does happen. Sanding once everything is in place
> makes everything appear more as a single unit.
>
I wonder if anyone has ever tried the technique of putting an ever so
slight bevel on the sides of face frames (think: door) so the butted
edges would be tight even if a wave in the wall caused a slight convex
line on any two cabinet fronts.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Leon wrote:
> "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
>
> I did notice what hes said, quality control. There is no quality to
> control. I would call it a standard control.
>
> ;~) If every hamburger you bought from a specific store had sand in it and
> every time had the exact same of sand in it would you say they have a good
> quality control? ...
If the corporate and/or store specification stated that was the proper
amount of sand, yes, that would be good quality control.
The target specification and subsequent control to the specification are
two separate pieces. QC by itself simply is to maintain a specific
tolerance to a a target (whatever that target value may be).
--
In article <[email protected]>, markem618
@hotmail.com says...
>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 20:16:35 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, markem618
> >@hotmail.com says...
> >>
> >> On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 16:02:42 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
> >> >>> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
> >> >>> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's relative.
> >> >>
> >> >> Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
> >> >> aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
> >> >>
> >> >> I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
> >> >> bring myself to use that word in that context!
> >> >>
> >> >> :)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >We are old school and we stick to what is right. If you look up the words
> >> >Quality and Control you do not come up with a definition that describes what
> >> >today's interpretation is. Today's meaning is simply a way of
> >> >hiding/disguising unacceptable.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Or having the customer return it. That is where the QC departments now
> >> reside.
> >
> >So found your own tool company on the basis of your definition of
> >"quality control" and see how many you sell.
>
> It seems to sell alot of stuff in the market place today actually.
Like what?
> But
> I prefered with the stuff work out of the box 100% of the time. That
> is not the case you test 13 out of a thousand if they pass send them
> to the warehouse.
So what do you, test _all_ the cartridges in the case?
On Mon, 7 Feb 2011 07:16:47 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I thought Leon said that both modes of the festers were random orbit,
>> but the video and descriptions definitely sound like one is a rotary
>> and the other random orbit. Can you clarify?
>
>
>Dont recall saying that however I do believe Robatoy indicated something
>along the lines of random orbit and a more agressive random orbit but with
>an added circular spin with in the random orbit.
>
>Take a look here for the Festool explanation and illustration of the
>difference.
>
>http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/understanding%20the%20two%20modes%20of%20the%20rotex%20dual%20mode%20sander.pdf
Thanks. That slow-rotation rotary mode sounds much less damaging than
a grinder while the random orbital motion polishes it out. Cool tool.
Now to wait for HF to release one. <snort>
--
If the American people ever allow private banks to control
the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up
around them will deprive the people of all property until
their children wake up homeless on the continent their
Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions
are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...
The issuing power should be taken from the banks and
restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
--Thomas Jefferson
On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 20:16:35 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, markem618
>@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 16:02:42 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
>> >>> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
>> >>> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
>> >>
>> >> It's relative.
>> >>
>> >> Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
>> >> aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
>> >>
>> >> I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
>> >> bring myself to use that word in that context!
>> >>
>> >> :)
>> >
>> >
>> >We are old school and we stick to what is right. If you look up the words
>> >Quality and Control you do not come up with a definition that describes what
>> >today's interpretation is. Today's meaning is simply a way of
>> >hiding/disguising unacceptable.
>> >
>>
>> Or having the customer return it. That is where the QC departments now
>> reside.
>
>So found your own tool company on the basis of your definition of
>"quality control" and see how many you sell.
It seems to sell alot of stuff in the market place today actually. But
I prefered with the stuff work out of the box 100% of the time. That
is not the case you test 13 out of a thousand if they pass send them
to the warehouse.
Mark
Leon wrote:
...
> Yeah, my old right angle PC ROS if lifted from the work would spin up to an
> incredable speed...
More recent PC's (and I presume others as well) have a "brake" to
prevent that. Of course, all it is is an o-ring around the shaft and a
solid spindle. When used in continuous or nearly continuous fashion the
generated head gets the lower case so hot can't touch it and promotes
early lower bearing failures. First thing I do w/ a new one is remove
the o-ring (altho for more normal use and finish work I'd leave it since
under those conditions one generally doesn't keep on running almost
continuously for hours at a time as I'm used to doing on the barn...
--
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2011 07:16:47 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>
>>> I thought Leon said that both modes of the festers were random orbit,
>>> but the video and descriptions definitely sound like one is a rotary
>>> and the other random orbit. Can you clarify?
>>
>>
>>Dont recall saying that however I do believe Robatoy indicated something
>>along the lines of random orbit and a more agressive random orbit but with
>>an added circular spin with in the random orbit.
>>
>>Take a look here for the Festool explanation and illustration of the
>>difference.
>>
>>http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/understanding%20the%20two%20modes%20of%20the%20rotex%20dual%20mode%20sander.pdf
>
> Thanks. That slow-rotation rotary mode sounds much less damaging than
> a grinder while the random orbital motion polishes it out. Cool tool.
Yeah, my old right angle PC ROS if lifted from the work would spin up to an
incredable speed and if you sat it down it could do some damage, I would
have to turn it off and wait for the pad to stop and begin again. With the
Rotex in any mode you can lift and set it back down with out worry. Now it
can do some damage because it removes stock quickly but if you are paying
attention there should be no issues.
> Now to wait for HF to release one. <snort>
good luck. '~)
Leon wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>> "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
>>> I did notice what hes said, quality control. There is no quality to
>>> control. I would call it a standard control.
>>>
>>> ;~) If every hamburger you bought from a specific store had sand in it
>>> and every time had the exact same of sand in it would you say they have a
>>> good quality control? ...
>> If the corporate and/or store specification stated that was the proper
>> amount of sand, yes, that would be good quality control.
>>
>>
>> --
>
> Well let's say that the sand was not intended ...
As stated, if it isn't in the specification (or more rigorously, if the
specification says it isn't supposed to be there), that's a failure.
> ... however they could not remidy
> the situation and the consumer is stuck with it and accepts it.
That's outside of QC purview as to whether the end user accepts it or
not. Proper implementation of QC would, however, prevent non-compliant
product from entering the product chain (in rigorous compliance, to the
exclusion of having any product, yes).
>
> Or lets say the hamburgers sit on the shelf and drys out until the next rush
> of customers but a trip to the steamer to reintroduce moisture and heat to
> the burger is a standard procedure. Is that "quality" control even though
> the burger is not as fresh as the ones currently being assembled and
> immediately sold but no one can tell the difference in taste?
...
Of course, if it is, as I believe you're postulating, part of a process.
Again, you're confusing/confounding the _level_ of the quality standard
w/ the process of QC to a standard.
--
On 08 Feb 2011 14:13:51 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>> Snip
>>
>>>
>>> Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you
>>> live or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?
>>
>>
>> I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
>> advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other
>> than availability.
>>
>> While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer
>> that every one charges the same price so that you know that you are
>> not paying more than somewhere else.
>
>That's what I would prefer to, Leon. I went to see a "local" hardware
>store that has an upper floor with all kinds of demo stuff, including
>lots of Festool. Salespeople at Godwin Hardware were very nice and
>helpful. It's almost 6 miles away, but we do have roads here in Bergen
>county :-)}, and they're even cleared by now. I just have to get over
>the stratospheric prices. I'm just a beginning amateur after all ...
You meant thermospheric, didn't you?
>(And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an argument
>that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all qulaity as
>well.)
Are you saying that Festools aren't what they used to be, Han? ;)
I disagree, thinking instead that mass acceptance of shitty,
quality-free items has lowered the overall quality levels because the
mfgrs know they can get away with it. Had people NOT bought the crap,
it wouldn't now exist, or would be much diminished.
--
Education should provide the tools for a widening and deepening
of life, for increased appreciation of all one sees or experiences.
It should equip a person to live life well, to understand what is
happening around him, for to live life well one must live life with
awareness. -- Louis L'Amour
On Sun, 6 Feb 2011 14:52:00 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, markem618
>@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> >> Or having the customer return it. That is where the QC departments now
>> >> reside.
>> >
>> >So found your own tool company on the basis of your definition of
>> >"quality control" and see how many you sell.
>>
>> It seems to sell alot of stuff in the market place today actually.
>
>Like what?
Bought any home video, a radio, small kitchen appliances.
>
>> But
>> I prefered with the stuff work out of the box 100% of the time. That
>> is not the case you test 13 out of a thousand if they pass send them
>> to the warehouse.
>
>So what do you, test _all_ the cartridges in the case?
>
Actually I test nada now, except for what I buy. Use to test
electronics, after I fixed the production that did not work.
But testing at assembly works, sampling works well for electronic
components but still relies upon use in pcb to weed out the bad ones.
Mark
On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 18:41:36 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:
>>
>> My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
>> Leon.
>> I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
>> (proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.
>
>Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
>different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
>sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no comparable
>Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.
>
>I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
>Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
>they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to
>cut out some paper dolls couldn't have had it. :)
I wouldn't want to quad-fold my sandpaper disc before use, would you?
HF sells inexpensive hollow punches if you can't find a piece of
tubing to handle it. Everyone should aready have one, IMHO.
http://tinyurl.com/4vxmep8 $6.49 for 9pc set.
>Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high
>quality abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of
>the paper when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work
>done with fewer sheet of abrasives.
$37 and change for 50 discs at Amazon. Not too bad.
--
If the American people ever allow private banks to control
the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up
around them will deprive the people of all property until
their children wake up homeless on the continent their
Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions
are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...
The issuing power should be taken from the banks and
restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
--Thomas Jefferson
On 2/4/11 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:
> "-MIKE-"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 2/4/11 11:36 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Leon" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again.
>>>>> Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once
>>>>> mounted, makes the joint line disappear.
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> Good point and it raises a question in my mind.
>>>>
>>>> Since both sides of the face frame are sanded smooth, how much a problem
>>>> of joint line mismatch do you think remains at final ass'y?
>>>
>>>
>>> It can be sigificant and especially if you are joining 4~5 cabinets along
>>> a
>>> wall run. Typically a wall is not straight or with out in or out bulges.
>>> While shims will remove most of the problems with uneven floors and walls
>>> you simply cannot depend on them to fis every thing. We tend to attach
>>> the
>>> units to each other and shimmed to the floor and walls as best as we can.
>>> Then we finish sand all the joints including those on the cabinet and the
>>> ones there the cabinets are joined.
>>>
>>> Basically regardless of how well the face frames may be presanded, after
>>> joining a particular face frame and cabinet to another and then mount and
>>> shim the cabinets there can be some shift between the cabinets, it is
>>> normally not much but it does happen. Sanding once everything is in
>>> place
>>> makes everything appear more as a single unit.
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if anyone has ever tried the technique of putting an ever so
>> slight bevel on the sides of face frames (think: door) so the butted
>> edges would be tight even if a wave in the wall caused a slight convex
>> line on any two cabinet fronts.
>>
>
> That might work if the floor is perfectly flat but what if the floor dips or
> swells also? And or the wall or floor surfaces may be flat and even at one
> point of contact with the cab but not at other spots.
> IMHO it is simply easier and faster to finish sand after the install.
>
I wasn't implying that it be done in place of those things.
I'm thining of the case where there is solid contact on the back of the
stile but not the front. There would be a gap in the front. In any case,
I'm guessing guys shim that out so everything is flush.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/4/11 3:21 PM, Swingman wrote:
I always thought it would end up looking better to hand it all as one piece.
Hope you have helpers. :-)
>
> But you're right (if I understand your intent correctly), a "v" groove
> along the join can certainly hide those kind of irregularities, and is a
> legitimate device to do so ... problem is that you need to carry it
> throughout the installation as a "design feature" in order for it to be
> effective because it certainly changes the look and feel.
>
I don't have a way with words, so this is what I'm talking about...
exaggerated, of course.
<https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/X_-QpY8vxRa1wKSSKBlFCA?>
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Leon wrote:
...
> I understand the concept "QC" however I believe that expectations have been
> watered down so much that the term Quality Control no longer means what it
> was probably was intended to be. QC now days is to maintain a certain
> standard. Many years back it was to insure perfection as much as that was
> possible.
> Several years back when I was in the automotive business I ran a service
> department for an Oldsmobile dealership. We had a QC for all vehicles that
> were serviced or repaired in our shop. Every car was inspected to insure
> that everything was done correctly and 100% of the vehicles were expected to
> pass. Now by todays watered down expectation of the QC term perhaps 75% of
> the vehicles would be expected to pass QC and that might be an acceptable
> failure rate. Basically QC no longer stands for quality as it once did.
...
No, the example is yet again a reduction in the level of the standard
(or perhaps a loss of QC in the implementation of what a standard might
still be if, in fact, there hasn't been a formal redefinition of a
program goal).
In the former you're mixing up something like the "5-sigma" _level_ of
quality w/ QC as a technique. The two are a separate pieces of the total.
While retired, in former life I was member of ASQC (as well as ASA, ANS
and various others) and QC was a part of my consulting gig. The
definitions of QC have _NOT_ changed; and in fact Mickey D's is quite a
serious implementor of QC. That they have a product that you and others
like to poke at isn't the same thing; they do an excellent job of
maintaining their product at the desired point which is the object of QC.
Again, if they were a 5-star cuisine organization the same principles
would serve just as well with only a different set of measures.
--
dpb wrote:
...
>> Several years back when I was in the automotive business I ran a
>> service department for an Oldsmobile dealership. We had a QC for all
>> vehicles that were serviced or repaired in our shop. Every car was
>> inspected to insure that everything was done correctly and 100% of the
>> vehicles were expected to pass. Now by todays watered down
>> expectation of the QC term perhaps 75% of the vehicles would be
>> expected to pass QC and that might be an acceptable failure rate.
>> Basically QC no longer stands for quality as it once did.
...
And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
Now that that carries with it a lower level of customer satisfaction is
likely a concomitant cost. The question then is where the overall
balance is in profitability, etc., and if management has made that
decision that's a choice. Given current cost pressures many have done
such and it's even more difficult in businesses having to deal with
cheap imported goods or the ilk than in service industries owing to
factors outside their direct control.
OTOH, if the goal is still nominally 100% because the program hasn't
actually been modified but they're only achieving 75, then the
organization is failing. Such things happen quite a lot, unfortunately,
for several reasons. The largest reason (by far) for such failures I
saw in the consulting gig was loss of commitment by management.
Now that there are a lot of organizations that are lowering the level of
the quality standard given economic pressures; particularly as noted in
response to cheap import goods I'll not disagree but it isn't
necessarily the same thing as QC itself not being good; W-M is another
cheap outfit that does extremely tight control on less expensive goods.
--
Swingman wrote:
> On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
>
>> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
>> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
>> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
>
> It's relative.
>
> Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
> aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
>
> I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
> bring myself to use that word in that context!
>
> :)
Chuckle...
Seriously, of course some applications call for much higher quality
levels. What I've seen of the failures in the aircraft maintenance
aren't QA failures but actual fraud.
--
On 2/5/11 6:35 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/karlcaillouet/FestoolStuff?authkey=Gv1sRgCL7kz_2FisWTfg#5569251562018543410
>
I hate you.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Swingman wrote:
...
> The problem, it appears, is now those at the higher level have figured
> out how to sidestep recriminations by "outsourcing".
...
Not always; many of these have been counterfeit operations. I'd suspect
that's where the above came from. (No different than the knockoff
Rolex, Gucci, etc., etc., ...)
--
Leon wrote:
...
> ... QC is now better defined as a
> level of acceptable incompetence or inferiority. It is a shame that "most"
> businesses today don't know that any thing less than 100% satisfaction of
> its product is not a good thing, but then we live in an immediate
> gratification society. So you can continue to explain how your QC does not
> stand for perfection rather a level of tolerable acceptance and you can
> continue to wonder why that ain't working.
...
Again, misconception and mistaken understanding of what am saying...
"Quality control: The observation techniques and activities used to
fulfill requirements for quality."
<http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/quality-assurance-quality-control/overview/overview.html>
--
"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using
>> the sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet door
>> type sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will be
>> better. Keep in mind that because the Rotex sands so much more
>> quickly it does cover a log of area much faster than a like sized
>> competitor. IMHO the 125 is much more versatile in usage.
>>
>
> I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125 mm.
> Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I get a good
> deal on a combo with the CT26?
Festool normally has a package deal program going that gets you a discount
if you buy a Vac at the same time you buy a Domino, Sander, or Track Saw.
There may be other deals available. I got my Vac with the Domino.
Also Festool normally has a better introductory price the first few months
on top of the combination deal with the Vac. You might get an even better
deal if you buy the 90 when it first comes out.
When I bought the Domino within the first months of introduction and the Vac
I got a sizeable discount, IIRC > $200. YMMV.
Keep in mind that the 150, 125, and 90 indicate pad size in mm's.
The 150 is approximately 6" in diameter, the 125 is approximately 5" in
diameter, the 90 will be approximately 3 1/2" in diameter.
Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
They do the first well, the latter poorly as you stated.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Is there a such thing as "quality" in the fast food industry? I think about
all the preservitives used to make the food taste the same each time you go
in... and then I try not to think about what my son's friends that have
worked in that industry have told me about what you don't want to know.
They are kids and don't eat where they work. Apparently it is like sausage,
it all tastes good until you find out or watch it being made.
I will agree that the fast food industry has a consistant standard but I
would not really consider it a quality standard.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
McDonalds can take care of themselves, but from what I've seen of the
fast food industry by and large they do a pretty decent job of maintaining
quality control.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:01:43 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 2/5/2011 4:27 PM, Max wrote:
>>> Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS?
>>> <grin>
>>> My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
>>> other ROSs.
>>
>>> Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
>>> cost.
>>
>> > What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
>> > I've been looking at the 150:
>>
>> > http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
>>
>>Festool products are excellently engineered and of high quality, and
>>that one would be a good one, but it is not the top end of the Festool
>>sanders.
>>
>>I would say that you might get a better bang for your buck by shopping
>>around and checking other reviews, like this one:
>>
>>http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1493&articleID=501109
>>
>>The "Rotex" versions are what I'm most familiar with and ...
>>
>>I would say yes ... mainly due to having a choice of motions ("rotex",
>>or aggressive removal, and eccentric, or less aggressive), bolstered by
>>the hole location and number in the pad, increasing the benefit (longer
>>sandpaper life) from dust extraction, given you overall a much more
>>efficient sanding system.
>
> I thought Leon said that both modes of the festers were random orbit,
> but the video and descriptions definitely sound like one is a rotary
> and the other random orbit. Can you clarify?
Dont recall saying that however I do believe Robatoy indicated something
along the lines of random orbit and a more agressive random orbit but with
an added circular spin with in the random orbit.
Take a look here for the Festool explanation and illustration of the
difference.
http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/understanding%20the%20two%20modes%20of%20the%20rotex%20dual%20mode%20sander.pdf
>
> The 9-hole system sure sounds like nice tech.
In article <[email protected]>, markem618
@hotmail.com says...
>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 16:02:42 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
> >>
> >>> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
> >>> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
> >>> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
> >>
> >> It's relative.
> >>
> >> Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
> >> aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
> >>
> >> I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
> >> bring myself to use that word in that context!
> >>
> >> :)
> >
> >
> >We are old school and we stick to what is right. If you look up the words
> >Quality and Control you do not come up with a definition that describes what
> >today's interpretation is. Today's meaning is simply a way of
> >hiding/disguising unacceptable.
> >
>
> Or having the customer return it. That is where the QC departments now
> reside.
So found your own tool company on the basis of your definition of
"quality control" and see how many you sell.
On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:01:43 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2/5/2011 4:27 PM, Max wrote:
>> Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? <grin>
>> My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
>> other ROSs.
>
>> Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
>> cost.
>
> > What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
> > I've been looking at the 150:
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
>
>Festool products are excellently engineered and of high quality, and
>that one would be a good one, but it is not the top end of the Festool
>sanders.
>
>I would say that you might get a better bang for your buck by shopping
>around and checking other reviews, like this one:
>
>http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1493&articleID=501109
>
>The "Rotex" versions are what I'm most familiar with and ...
>
>I would say yes ... mainly due to having a choice of motions ("rotex",
>or aggressive removal, and eccentric, or less aggressive), bolstered by
>the hole location and number in the pad, increasing the benefit (longer
>sandpaper life) from dust extraction, given you overall a much more
>efficient sanding system.
I thought Leon said that both modes of the festers were random orbit,
but the video and descriptions definitely sound like one is a rotary
and the other random orbit. Can you clarify?
The 9-hole system sure sounds like nice tech.
--
Doubt 'til thou canst doubt no more...doubt is thought and thought
is life. Systems which end doubt are devices for drugging thought.
-- Albert Guerard
On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 16:02:42 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
>>
>>> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
>>> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
>>> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
>>
>> It's relative.
>>
>> Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
>> aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
>>
>> I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
>> bring myself to use that word in that context!
>>
>> :)
>
>
>We are old school and we stick to what is right. If you look up the words
>Quality and Control you do not come up with a definition that describes what
>today's interpretation is. Today's meaning is simply a way of
>hiding/disguising unacceptable.
>
Or having the customer return it. That is where the QC departments now
reside.
Mark
On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 12:36:30 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 2, 2:51 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>> > On 2/2/2011 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
>> >> dpb wrote:
>> >>> Anybody have current suggestions? ...
>>
>> >> Nobody has any input at all? Surprising...
>>
>> > I have a Bosch 6" that doesn't fit your criteria, but is a very usable
>> > tool.
>>
>> > In 5", I have a Festool Rotex125, but you don't want to hear about that.
>>
>> > There is no comparison between the two in quality and functionality.
>>
>> > That said, the Bosch stood me in good stead for ten years, before I knew
>> > what excellence in a ROS was all about.
>>
>> But would you risk the investment in the Festool on exterior siding in
>> preparation for painting on old barn w/ hired help also a possibility?
>
>Dude... stop right there....
Yeah, it'd be cheaper to pre-prime/paint and reside the entire barn.
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/4/11 11:36 AM, Leon wrote:
>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Leon" wrote:
>>>
>>>> The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again.
>>>> Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once
>>>> mounted, makes the joint line disappear.
>>> -------------------------------
>>> Good point and it raises a question in my mind.
>>>
>>> Since both sides of the face frame are sanded smooth, how much a problem
>>> of joint line mismatch do you think remains at final ass'y?
>>
>>
>> It can be sigificant and especially if you are joining 4~5 cabinets along
>> a
>> wall run. Typically a wall is not straight or with out in or out bulges.
>> While shims will remove most of the problems with uneven floors and walls
>> you simply cannot depend on them to fis every thing. We tend to attach
>> the
>> units to each other and shimmed to the floor and walls as best as we can.
>> Then we finish sand all the joints including those on the cabinet and the
>> ones there the cabinets are joined.
>>
>> Basically regardless of how well the face frames may be presanded, after
>> joining a particular face frame and cabinet to another and then mount and
>> shim the cabinets there can be some shift between the cabinets, it is
>> normally not much but it does happen. Sanding once everything is in
>> place
>> makes everything appear more as a single unit.
>>
>
> I wonder if anyone has ever tried the technique of putting an ever so
> slight bevel on the sides of face frames (think: door) so the butted
> edges would be tight even if a wave in the wall caused a slight convex
> line on any two cabinet fronts.
>
That might work if the floor is perfectly flat but what if the floor dips or
swells also? And or the wall or floor surfaces may be flat and even at one
point of contact with the cab but not at other spots.
IMHO it is simply easier and faster to finish sand after the install.
On 2/2/2011 5:40 PM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 2, 6:31 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> I tend to go toward bigger is better in that kind of tool (the more
>> surface area the quicker I'm done kinda thinking), but the 150 would be
>> a bit much to handle in the marathon sanding sessions that I'm wont to
>> do when I finally get started.
> errrmmm... the 150 Rotex is a totally different sander doing much more
> amazing things...stay tuned...LOL
I'm sure it is, especially for big wide jobs like countertops.
After using the Rotex 125 for drawer parts and face frames, which is
about 90% of its work, the Rotex 125 has turned out to be an excellent
choice ... I'm not second guessing my decision in the least.
Here's my sanding setup for cabinet parts:
https://picasaweb.google.com/karlcaillouet/FestoolStuff?authkey=Gv1sRgCL7kz_2FisWTfg#5569251562018543410
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
>> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
> That's not a sander, that's a farkn' hoovercraft.
Looks like it's designed for removing manhole covers.
On 2/5/2011 4:27 PM, Max wrote:
> Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? <grin>
> My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
> other ROSs.
> Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
> cost.
> What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
> I've been looking at the 150:
> http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
Festool products are excellently engineered and of high quality, and
that one would be a good one, but it is not the top end of the Festool
sanders.
I would say that you might get a better bang for your buck by shopping
around and checking other reviews, like this one:
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1493&articleID=501109
The "Rotex" versions are what I'm most familiar with and ...
I would say yes ... mainly due to having a choice of motions ("rotex",
or aggressive removal, and eccentric, or less aggressive), bolstered by
the hole location and number in the pad, increasing the benefit (longer
sandpaper life) from dust extraction, given you overall a much more
efficient sanding system.
However ... to be effective and get the greatest sanding efficiency, you
most definitely do need a dust extraction system. Might not have to be a
Festool DE system, but they certainly optimize the performance.
Also, the motors are robust, well engineered and relatively quiet and
vibration free in operation.
Here's an independent review of the Rotex 125, which compares it to the
Rotex 150, so covers both quite nicely.
http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/ro_125_review.pdf
> I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is
> worth the money..........I'll spring.
Only caveat, as stated above ... IME&O, the sander must be part of a
dust extraction system to get you maximum efficiency/cost effectiveness
... just my tuppence.
That, of course, raises the ante ...
I will say this, if you're in the woodworking business in some fashion,
it is highly unlikely you will EVER regret any Festool purchase.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 2/4/2011 3:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I wasn't implying that it be done in place of those things.
> I'm thining of the case where there is solid contact on the back of the
> stile but not the front. There would be a gap in the front. In any case,
> I'm guessing guys shim that out so everything is flush.
Actually, the process seems to have gotten a bit confused.
The general procedure is to join cabinets, face frame to face frame, on
a level surface, before they are installed/attached to the wall.
Obviously you can't do that in cases where run is too long, but it is
generally advantageous to do this.
That notwithstanding, the problem can be easily demonstrated by butting
two boards of the same thickness side by side on a level surface ... no
matter how much you try, you can almost always tell the join beteen the
two surfaces just by running you finger across it, even there is only
1/128" difference.
That is the kind of thing you try to rectify by finish sanding after
installation ... if your error is any larger than just a small
difference, you would have done better by rejoining the cabinets before
you put them up.
IOW, it's a very small thing, not a gross adjustment, that you want to
sand out ... more of an aesthetic thing.
But you're right (if I understand your intent correctly), a "v" groove
along the join can certainly hide those kind of irregularities, and is a
legitimate device to do so ... problem is that you need to carry it
throughout the installation as a "design feature" in order for it to be
effective because it certainly changes the look and feel.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 2/3/2011 11:21 AM, Robatoy wrote:
> I totally agree. One should have both.<G> If I had to have only one,
> it'd be the 5"
> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
That's not a sander, that's a farkn' hoovercraft.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again.
>> Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once
>> mounted, makes the joint line disappear.
> -------------------------------
> Good point and it raises a question in my mind.
>
> Since both sides of the face frame are sanded smooth, how much a problem
> of joint line mismatch do you think remains at final ass'y?
It can be sigificant and especially if you are joining 4~5 cabinets along a
wall run. Typically a wall is not straight or with out in or out bulges.
While shims will remove most of the problems with uneven floors and walls
you simply cannot depend on them to fis every thing. We tend to attach the
units to each other and shimmed to the floor and walls as best as we can.
Then we finish sand all the joints including those on the cabinet and the
ones there the cabinets are joined.
Basically regardless of how well the face frames may be presanded, after
joining a particular face frame and cabinet to another and then mount and
shim the cabinets there can be some shift between the cabinets, it is
normally not much but it does happen. Sanding once everything is in place
makes everything appear more as a single unit.
On 2/3/2011 3:03 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
>
>> This one would be cumbersome when sanding faceframes:
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Sander.jpg
>
> ---------------------------------
> Just not big enough.
>
> Run face frames thru the drum sander and not only get a better job but
> also save time.
Good trick if you could do it ... final face frame sanding on a cabinet
run is generally done after installation.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/2/2011 4:59 PM, Leon wrote:
>> "dpb"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
>>>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS ...
>>>
>>> I thought it was closer to 2X that... ?
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> There is a Festool ROS that is considerable less expensive than the
>> Rotex125/150. It is more of a finish sander rather than an all around
>> agressive/finish sander. And yes the Rotex 125/150 are $400/$500
>> respectively IIRC.
>
> I'm glad I took your advice and bought into the Festool sander gig, and
> I'm glad I took your advice and got the Rotex125 instead of the 150.
>
> I tend to go toward bigger is better in that kind of tool (the more
> surface area the quicker I'm done kinda thinking), but the 150 would be a
> bit much to handle in the marathon sanding sessions that I'm wont to do
> when I finally get started.
I strongly considered the 150 but knew that large wide spaces were not going
to be my main area of sanding. Even the Festool rep was suggesting the 150
over the 125 until I made him understand that face frames and cabinet doors
and drawers were going to be the larger projects. He then totally agreed
that the 150 would be more difficult to handle/balance on the narrow parts.
If I was doing counter tops all the time I would have gone with the 150. I
too have never given it a second thought my decision to go with the 125 over
the 150. Actually I often see instances where the 150 would not have gone
where the 125 could go.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> -MIKE- wrote:
> ...
>
>> If I had a job that required a bunch of sanding, I would probably pop
>> $170 on that Festool 125 ROS ...
>
> I thought it was closer to 2X that... ?
>
> --
There is a Festool ROS that is considerable less expensive than the
Rotex125/150. It is more of a finish sander rather than an all around
agressive/finish sander. And yes the Rotex 125/150 are $400/$500
respectively IIRC.
On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:
> And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to
> cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are
> achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
It's relative.
Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the
aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't
bring myself to use that word in that context!
:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)