I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°) side.
Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate the
corner.
Essentially, I need to know the angle formed by the intersection of two
planes. Both with 6° elevation and with the planes 90° to each other.
Does anyone have the solution and possibly the derivation of the formula?
I need to drill the holes tomorrow if possible.
Any help would be appreciated.
Preston
Preston Andreas wrote:
>
> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°) side.
> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate the
> corner.
>
> Essentially, I need to know the angle formed by the intersection of two
> planes. Both with 6° elevation and with the planes 90° to each other.
>
> Does anyone have the solution and possibly the derivation of the formula?
>
> I need to drill the holes tomorrow if possible.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Preston
Assuming you've got a square slab with corners 1,2,3 & 4
with corner 1 remaining on the original plane
and
you tilt corner 2 up 6 degrees
then
holding corners 1 & 2 at this position and
elevate corner 3, diagonally accrossed from
corner 1, up 6 degrees
the resulting angle between corners 1 & 3, relative
to the original plane is 8.5 degrees or close enough to 8.5 degrees
Anyone want to confirm my results so I don't feel too bad
if Preston uses 8.5 degrees and I'm wrong. Had to remember
how to convert degrees to radians and radians back to degrees.
charlie b
"Preston Andreas" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°) side.
> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate the
> corner.
>
> Essentially, I need to know the angle formed by the intersection of two
> planes. Both with 6° elevation and with the planes 90° to each other.
>
> Does anyone have the solution and possibly the derivation of the formula?
>
> I need to drill the holes tomorrow if possible.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Preston
I hope you have already figured this out, but here it goes. You need a
center line for your slab. Mark your hole location and draw a line
through the center of that hole perpendicular the slab center line.
Since your angles are both six degrees your sight line will be a line
that extends from the hole center to the slab center line at 45
degrees to the hole center line perpendicular. Here is the tricky
part. You dont elevate a corner. You elevate the far side of the sight
line. To get 6 degrees on both planes tilt your drill pres table to
8.5 degrees. Keep the sight line perpendicular to the table tilt and
you will be fine. I got this information out of the back of Drew
Langsner's book The Chair Makers Workshop. It has tables for all the
possible rake and splay angles and their sight lines. It also has a
better explanation of the process than I have given here.
BadgerDog wrote:
> A clarification:
>
> Re-reading my response I don't think I described the process correctly and
> what I was trying to say would most likely be mis-interpreted due to its
> poor explanation.
I didn't understand the question, once I did a practical solution was easy.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> What odds are you giving, I want $100 worth? <grin>
> >
The odds are 1:1000. If you send me the $100, I'll get your $10 out right
away.
todd
BadgerDog wrote:
> At the risk of flogging a dead horse a few days late, here's an easier way
> to get the 4.24 degree answer:
>
> = L*sqrt(2)*sin(theta)). This occurs for theta = arcsin[ sin(6 degrees) /
> sqrt(2) ] = 4.2388 degrees.
Easier... Heh.
Being a mathematical retard sucks. What is that, trigonometry or something?
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Yes it will be on the corner. The angle from the corner touching the table
to the opposite corner is what I need and it isn't 6°
Preston
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Preston Andreas wrote:
>
> > I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
side.
> > Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons,
I
> > want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate
the
> > corner.
>
>
>
> It will be interesting to see the decoding of this question.
>
> If you elevate adjacent sides of a solid 'slab' it will be on it's corner.
>
> ??
>
> For now I'm guessing 6 degrees.?
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
> A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
> suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>
I agree with Horatio's answer, if you elevate one edge (AB) and then elevate
(BC) you essentially raise the height of the top corner twice and you get
8.5 degrees elevation along the diagonal. However, I interpreted the
question slightly differently. If you raise AB by 6 degrees, then the high
corner is at some height X. Now put the slab flat again, elevate BC by 6
degrees, and the height of the top corner is again at the same height X. In
order for the high point to be at the same position for both cases, the slab
must be a square. Not surprisingly, with my interpretation of the problem,
the elevation along the diagonal is 1/2 of Horatio's answer. (4.24
degrees.)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Preston Andreas <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
side.
> >Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
> >want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate
the
> >corner.
> >
> >Essentially, I need to know the angle formed by the intersection of two
> >planes. Both with 6° elevation and with the planes 90° to each other.
> >
> >Does anyone have the solution and possibly the derivation of the formula?
> >
> >I need to drill the holes tomorrow if possible.
> >
> >Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> >Preston
> >
> >
>
> I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to do, but here goes:
>
> Assuming the 'original' methodology is:
> elevate one side (call it AB)of the slab, so that a line from
> it to the other side (call it CD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
> then elevate side BC so that a line from _it_ to the opposite
> side (AD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
>
> And what you want is the angle above horizontal of the line BD.
> B is the high corner, and D is still at the original horizontal.
>
> Taking things piecemeal,
> corner "A" is above the original horizontal plane by
> sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD.
> corner "B" is above corner A" by
> sin(6 degrees)*length of side AB.
> thus corner "B" is above the original horizontal plane by
> (sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD) + (sin(6 degrees)*length of side
AB)
> And the distance from D to B is given by
> sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
> So the angle is
>
> (sin(6 deg)*len of side AD) + (sin(6 deg)*len of side
AB)
> theta =
rcsin( --------------------------------------------------------- )
> sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
>
>
> if the slab is a _square_, things get a _lot_ simpler:
>
> theta = arcsin( sqrt(2)*sin(6 deg) )
>
> which is approximately: 8.5009361422462 degrees
>
>
> Note: when dealing with small angles like this, one _can_ simply disregard
> the trig functions, and be accurate to within a fraction of a
percent
> sqrt(2) * 6 degrees == 8.48+ degrees, which is within 0.25% of the
> precision answer, above.
In article <[email protected]>,
Preston Andreas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°) side.
>Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
>want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate the
>corner.
>
>Essentially, I need to know the angle formed by the intersection of two
>planes. Both with 6° elevation and with the planes 90° to each other.
>
>Does anyone have the solution and possibly the derivation of the formula?
>
>I need to drill the holes tomorrow if possible.
>
>Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Preston
>
>
I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to do, but here goes:
Assuming the 'original' methodology is:
elevate one side (call it AB)of the slab, so that a line from
it to the other side (call it CD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
then elevate side BC so that a line from _it_ to the opposite
side (AD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
And what you want is the angle above horizontal of the line BD.
B is the high corner, and D is still at the original horizontal.
Taking things piecemeal,
corner "A" is above the original horizontal plane by
sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD.
corner "B" is above corner A" by
sin(6 degrees)*length of side AB.
thus corner "B" is above the original horizontal plane by
(sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD) + (sin(6 degrees)*length of side AB)
And the distance from D to B is given by
sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
So the angle is
(sin(6 deg)*len of side AD) + (sin(6 deg)*len of side AB)
theta = arcsin( --------------------------------------------------------- )
sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
if the slab is a _square_, things get a _lot_ simpler:
theta = arcsin( sqrt(2)*sin(6 deg) )
which is approximately: 8.5009361422462 degrees
Note: when dealing with small angles like this, one _can_ simply disregard
the trig functions, and be accurate to within a fraction of a percent
sqrt(2) * 6 degrees == 8.48+ degrees, which is within 0.25% of the
precision answer, above.
At the risk of flogging a dead horse a few days late, here's an easier way
to get the 4.24 degree answer:
Consider a square labeled like a baseball diamond. We want to raise the 2nd
base corner while leaving home plate alone. From the original question, I
assume that we want to tilt the square such that the 1st, 2nd and 3rd base
corners are all raised to the same height as each other. If the distance
from home plate to 1st base is L, then the distance from home plate to 2nd
base is L*sqrt(2). Both 1st and 3rd base will be elevated by L*sin(6
degrees), while 2nd base will be elevated by L*sqrt(2)*sin(theta). We want
to know what value of theta will make the heights the same (L*sin(6 degrees)
= L*sqrt(2)*sin(theta)). This occurs for theta = arcsin[ sin(6 degrees) /
sqrt(2) ] = 4.2388 degrees.
BadgerDog
"Michael Stephens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Dmkqb.117645$Tr4.328052@attbi_s03...
> I agree with Horatio's answer, if you elevate one edge (AB) and then
elevate
> (BC) you essentially raise the height of the top corner twice and you get
> 8.5 degrees elevation along the diagonal. However, I interpreted the
> question slightly differently. If you raise AB by 6 degrees, then the
high
> corner is at some height X. Now put the slab flat again, elevate BC by 6
> degrees, and the height of the top corner is again at the same height X.
In
> order for the high point to be at the same position for both cases, the
slab
> must be a square. Not surprisingly, with my interpretation of the
problem,
> the elevation along the diagonal is 1/2 of Horatio's answer. (4.24
> degrees.)
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Preston Andreas <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
> side.
> > >Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons,
I
> > >want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate
> the
> > >corner.
> > >
> > >Essentially, I need to know the angle formed by the intersection of two
> > >planes. Both with 6° elevation and with the planes 90° to each other.
> > >
> > >Does anyone have the solution and possibly the derivation of the
formula?
> > >
> > >I need to drill the holes tomorrow if possible.
> > >
> > >Any help would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >Preston
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to do, but here goes:
> >
> > Assuming the 'original' methodology is:
> > elevate one side (call it AB)of the slab, so that a line from
> > it to the other side (call it CD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
> > then elevate side BC so that a line from _it_ to the opposite
> > side (AD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
> >
> > And what you want is the angle above horizontal of the line BD.
> > B is the high corner, and D is still at the original horizontal.
> >
> > Taking things piecemeal,
> > corner "A" is above the original horizontal plane by
> > sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD.
> > corner "B" is above corner A" by
> > sin(6 degrees)*length of side AB.
> > thus corner "B" is above the original horizontal plane by
> > (sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD) + (sin(6 degrees)*length of
side
> AB)
> > And the distance from D to B is given by
> > sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
> > So the angle is
> >
> > (sin(6 deg)*len of side AD) + (sin(6 deg)*len of side
> AB)
> > theta =
> rcsin( --------------------------------------------------------- )
> > sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
> >
> >
> > if the slab is a _square_, things get a _lot_ simpler:
> >
> > theta = arcsin( sqrt(2)*sin(6 deg) )
> >
> > which is approximately: 8.5009361422462 degrees
> >
> >
> > Note: when dealing with small angles like this, one _can_ simply
disregard
> > the trig functions, and be accurate to within a fraction of a
> percent
> > sqrt(2) * 6 degrees == 8.48+ degrees, which is within 0.25% of
the
> > precision answer, above.
>
>
Thanks for the help. I made the jig with about 8.5° elevation. I will
drill tomorrow. Hope it works.
Preston
"Preston Andreas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°) side.
> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate the
> corner.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Preston
>
>
I may have to wait a day to drill until I get the answer. Perhaps you can
post it tomorrow.
Thanks,
Preston
"@sbc(nospam)global.net" <""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Actually, if anyone has a machinists handbook the answer is in there.
> The resulting angle from the first two angles has to be calculated (it's
> not 6 degrees). I have my copy at work, or else I could give yo the
> answer right now. Help anyone??????
>
> Mark wrote:
> >
> >
> > Preston Andreas wrote:
> >
> >> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
> >> side.
> >> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons,
I
> >> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate
> >> the
> >> corner.
> >
Preston Andreas wrote:
> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°) side.
> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate the
> corner.
It will be interesting to see the decoding of this question.
If you elevate adjacent sides of a solid 'slab' it will be on it's corner.
??
For now I'm guessing 6 degrees.?
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
A clarification:
Re-reading my response I don't think I described the process correctly and
what I was trying to say would most likely be mis-interpreted due to its
poor explanation.
I was primarily trying to show an easier way to do the calculation that
Horatio presented in the piece meal approach. There is also the problem of
more than one interpretation of the problem. So here is a brief description
of the easier calculation for either interpretation:
1) Horati's interpretation: the "top corner" is effectively raised twice as
high as the corners that are defined by the 6 degree incline. If "L" is the
length of the side of the square, this interpretation means that
L*sqrt(2)*sin(theta) = 2*L*sin(6 degrees), where theta is the angle if
inclination for the top corner and the length of the diagonal of the square
is sqrt(2)*L. This gives theta = arcsin[ 2 * sin(6 degrees) / sqrt(2)] =
8.5009 degrees.
2) Michael's interpretation (which I described poorly) was that we wanted to
raise the top corner the same amount as the other corners when they are
raised to an inclination of 6 degrees. In this case, L*sqrt(2)*sin(theta) =
L*sin(6 degrees), which occurs for theta = arcsin[ sin(6 degrees) / sqrt(2)]
= 4.2388 degrees (as I described in the previous post).
I am afraid that my description in the original post implies that 1st, 2nd
and 3rd base are raised to the same height at the same time; this would just
raise the square, not tilt it.
BadgerDog
"BadgerDog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> At the risk of flogging a dead horse a few days late, here's an easier way
> to get the 4.24 degree answer:
>
> Consider a square labeled like a baseball diamond. We want to raise the
2nd
> base corner while leaving home plate alone. From the original question, I
> assume that we want to tilt the square such that the 1st, 2nd and 3rd base
> corners are all raised to the same height as each other. If the distance
> from home plate to 1st base is L, then the distance from home plate to 2nd
> base is L*sqrt(2). Both 1st and 3rd base will be elevated by L*sin(6
> degrees), while 2nd base will be elevated by L*sqrt(2)*sin(theta). We
want
> to know what value of theta will make the heights the same (L*sin(6
degrees)
> = L*sqrt(2)*sin(theta)). This occurs for theta = arcsin[ sin(6 degrees) /
> sqrt(2) ] = 4.2388 degrees.
>
> BadgerDog
>
>
> "Michael Stephens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Dmkqb.117645$Tr4.328052@attbi_s03...
> > I agree with Horatio's answer, if you elevate one edge (AB) and then
> elevate
> > (BC) you essentially raise the height of the top corner twice and you
get
> > 8.5 degrees elevation along the diagonal. However, I interpreted the
> > question slightly differently. If you raise AB by 6 degrees, then the
> high
> > corner is at some height X. Now put the slab flat again, elevate BC by
6
> > degrees, and the height of the top corner is again at the same height X.
> In
> > order for the high point to be at the same position for both cases, the
> slab
> > must be a square. Not surprisingly, with my interpretation of the
> problem,
> > the elevation along the diagonal is 1/2 of Horatio's answer. (4.24
> > degrees.)
> >
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > Preston Andreas <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
> > side.
> > > >Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup
reasons,
> I
> > > >want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to
elevate
> > the
> > > >corner.
> > > >
> > > >Essentially, I need to know the angle formed by the intersection of
two
> > > >planes. Both with 6° elevation and with the planes 90° to each
other.
> > > >
> > > >Does anyone have the solution and possibly the derivation of the
> formula?
> > > >
> > > >I need to drill the holes tomorrow if possible.
> > > >
> > > >Any help would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > >Preston
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to do, but here goes:
> > >
> > > Assuming the 'original' methodology is:
> > > elevate one side (call it AB)of the slab, so that a line from
> > > it to the other side (call it CD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
> > > then elevate side BC so that a line from _it_ to the opposite
> > > side (AD) is 6 degrees above horizontal.
> > >
> > > And what you want is the angle above horizontal of the line BD.
> > > B is the high corner, and D is still at the original horizontal.
> > >
> > > Taking things piecemeal,
> > > corner "A" is above the original horizontal plane by
> > > sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD.
> > > corner "B" is above corner A" by
> > > sin(6 degrees)*length of side AB.
> > > thus corner "B" is above the original horizontal plane by
> > > (sin(6 degrees)*length of side AD) + (sin(6 degrees)*length of
> side
> > AB)
> > > And the distance from D to B is given by
> > > sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
> > > So the angle is
> > >
> > > (sin(6 deg)*len of side AD) + (sin(6 deg)*len of
side
> > AB)
> > > theta =
> > rcsin( --------------------------------------------------------- )
> > > sqrt(AD*AD + AB*AB)
> > >
> > >
> > > if the slab is a _square_, things get a _lot_ simpler:
> > >
> > > theta = arcsin( sqrt(2)*sin(6 deg) )
> > >
> > > which is approximately: 8.5009361422462 degrees
> > >
> > >
> > > Note: when dealing with small angles like this, one _can_ simply
> disregard
> > > the trig functions, and be accurate to within a fraction of a
> > percent
> > > sqrt(2) * 6 degrees == 8.48+ degrees, which is within 0.25% of
> the
> > > precision answer, above.
> >
> >
>
>
I'll lay odds that for an angle this small, it's within half a degree of 6
degrees.
todd
"@sbc(nospam)global.net" <""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Actually, if anyone has a machinists handbook the answer is in there.
> The resulting angle from the first two angles has to be calculated (it's
> not 6 degrees). I have my copy at work, or else I could give yo the
> answer right now. Help anyone??????
>
> Mark wrote:
> >
> >
> > Preston Andreas wrote:
> >
> >> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
> >> side.
> >> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons,
I
> >> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate
> >> the
> >> corner.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It will be interesting to see the decoding of this question.
> >
> > If you elevate adjacent sides of a solid 'slab' it will be on it's
corner.
> >
> > ??
> >
> > For now I'm guessing 6 degrees.?
> >
> > --
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > N.E. Ohio
> >
> >
> > Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
> > A.K.A. Mark Twain)
> >
> > When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
> > suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
> >
>
Actually, if anyone has a machinists handbook the answer is in there.
The resulting angle from the first two angles has to be calculated (it's
not 6 degrees). I have my copy at work, or else I could give yo the
answer right now. Help anyone??????
Mark wrote:
>
>
> Preston Andreas wrote:
>
>> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
>> side.
>> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons, I
>> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate
>> the
>> corner.
>
>
>
>
> It will be interesting to see the decoding of this question.
>
> If you elevate adjacent sides of a solid 'slab' it will be on it's corner.
>
> ??
>
> For now I'm guessing 6 degrees.?
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
> A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
> suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>
In article <[email protected]>,
todd <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>I'll lay odds that for an angle this small, it's within half a degree of 6
>degrees.
Having done the math, I'll take you up on that.
What odds are you giving, I want $100 worth? <grin>
>
>todd
>
>"@sbc(nospam)global.net" <""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>> Actually, if anyone has a machinists handbook the answer is in there.
>> The resulting angle from the first two angles has to be calculated (it's
>> not 6 degrees). I have my copy at work, or else I could give yo the
>> answer right now. Help anyone??????
>>
>> Mark wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Preston Andreas wrote:
>> >
>> >> I need to elevate a slab 6° on one side and 6° on the adjacent (90°)
>> >> side.
>> >> Then I need to drill a hole straight down. However, for setup reasons,
>I
>> >> want to elevate only the corner. I need to know what angle to elevate
>> >> the
>> >> corner.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It will be interesting to see the decoding of this question.
>> >
>> > If you elevate adjacent sides of a solid 'slab' it will be on it's
>corner.
>> >
>> > ??
>> >
>> > For now I'm guessing 6 degrees.?
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> > N.E. Ohio
>> >
>> >
>> > Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
>> > A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>> >
>> > When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
>> > suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>> >
>>
>
>