OT: Seeking Comparison of building costs by type

I'm currently building a home 260 miles north of San Francisco.
Traditional frame house. Cost of construction is $85/ft-sq (nor
including land). The lumber mill is one mile from my front door, so
perhaps that is why costs are low. I have a contractor, and he is ever
a pro. Compared to building methods here in Los Angeles, my place
should be featured in Fine WoodWorking Magazine. I'm impressed.

In a few months I'll undertake construction of my 25x38-foot wood shop.
The lumber mill offered me a "garage package" that includes ALL lumber
(even trusses), nails, doors, windows, hardware, for about $9/foot. It
would have been $7.50/foot, but I specified 10-foot walls to get a high
ceiling.

My contractor advised me to go this route on my shop project, rather
than buying dismantled barns, or otherwise "bottom-feeding" methods. If
you can get land in a lumber region, prices are low.

Gary Curtis
Los Angeles

Thomas,

If you would like to capitalize on your own labor, I would suggest
finding a house plan you like from the thousands available in the
library or on-line. Then have an archiect or designer provide a set of
drawings that reflect that plan and detailed to utilize one of the two
following methods of construction.

1. Check out the Portland Cement Assoc. publication on insulating
concrete block, an autoclaved cement product that is lightweight and
workable with traditional carpentry tools. An excellent article was
published several years ago in Fine Homebuilding Magazine, worth
looking up. This would also be an excellent material for a shop.

2. Set the drawings up for pre-fabrication of floor, wall and roof
panels. Your labor would be to build the panels. keep the sizes
manageable and spend the time in building them ahead of the
construction. When the time comes let a carpentry company erect them
for you and finish off as much as you want.

Hope these options give you more to research. Best of luck.

Deacon

In article <[email protected]>,
Thomas Bunetta <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:54:39 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
><snipped>
>>
>> The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
>> represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
>> I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
>> the ditches with vehicles.
>>
><snipped>
>--
>> LRod
>>
>Well LRod we Crackers can drive in sugar sand ;<).
>All kidding aside, that is one of the things that I have seriously
>considered... I have zero snow experience in a vehicle. Does this mean I
>have to trade my 2wd F-150 for a 4wd? Or just get chains or similar traction
>aiding devices?
>Tom
>
>

The -big- secret to driving in bad weather, is 'finesse'. go easy on the
gas pedal, easy on the brakes, and easy on the steering. "Plan ahead",
and minimize the need for abrupt changes.

A 'limited-slip' differential ("Posi-trac", or similar) is a *big* help in
adverse conditions. 4wd is even better (it always includes 'limited-slip'
between wheels), but the advantage of 4-wheel over 2-wheel is minor, compared
to the benefits of limited-slip over a standard rear-end.

Emergency handling (regardless of whether it is snow, rain, or dry-pavement)
characteristics -- and what you do as the driver -- *do* vary greatly,
depending on whether you have front-, rear-, or all-wheel drive.

This is _mostly_ a matter of being familiar with what you have, and knowing
how to use it. Front-wheel drive has some advantage -- mostly in that
it is easier for the _un-skilled_ driver to 'do the right thing'.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message

> The best car I ever drove in the snow was an old Checker taxicab...

Best one this "cracker" ever drove in heavy snow/ice, by far, was a 50's VW
bug, in Bavaria, during two winters of record snow fall. Easy to handle on
ice, and with chains it would go when the snow plows wouldn't. I left the
72' 2002 ti in the garage and drove the bug during blizzard conditions, 28
clicks on mountain roads each way, to the base for days at a time.

It _had_ to be the car, cuz apparently "crackers", particularly those not
impressed with snow driving braggadocio, aren't supposed to know how to
handle that.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/07/05

"LRod" wrote in message

> The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
> represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
> I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
> the ditches with vehicles.

Problems with snow driving is understandable if you've never experienced it
and is obviously an acquired skill, although not one I'd judge was worth
wasting much bragging pride on ... what's really baffling is why the snow
birds (or whatever the opposite of your "crackers" is) visiting down here in
Texas can't seem to drive more than 15mph in a gentle rain?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/07/05

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:09:32 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Thanks for your input... it kinda adds to my general feelings about the
>practical issues.
>I looked at a number of links Edwin provided, and that form of construction
>holds promise (I'm trading possible hurricanes for possible tornadoes) in
>both strength and energy efficiency.

I live in Kansas and we are seeing quite a few of the poured concrete
homes going up here. We even have a company in my home town that
manufactures the foam blocks.
I haven't had the opportunity to work on one yet but one of our
builders is working on a plan for one now.
I talked to a heat and air guy who told me that the heating/cooling
systems are designed to exchange the inside air at a certain rate (to
remove moisture) because the buildings are so tight.

Mike O.

"Rick Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don't know of your financial situation. But if you want cheap, but sound
> building, be ready to do most of it with friends and family. Start with
> earth sheltered housing. There are many alternative houses out there.
> Made with tires, and filled with packed dirt, concert with soda
> cans/glass bottles. Rammed earth, slip-form concert. Many more. Just
> remember, to keep cost down, your labor goes up, fast.


Hi Rick,
The above are all good suggestions, but would probably require me to do it
myself. And that isn't possible.
I hope I didn't come across wrong in post 1... I'd like to compare the
general per square foot costs for each type of home, log Vs. block, etc.
And for that matter pros and cons of log homes (contractor built/assembled).
Tom

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Thomas Bunetta" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I'm faced in deciding which type of construction for a home and for a
>> shop.

<snip>

> If I was building a home today. it would use Insulating Concrete Forms.
<snip of nice links, good information, Thanks>

That is one I hadn't thought of, to add to my confusion <G>.

I have done searches using variations of: cost comparison of construction
but found nothing to even offer relative costs (item currently interested
in). The log sites don't seem to really list the pros and cons of that style
building... They tout energy efficiency and hint at needed regular
maintenance, but beyond that I can't find much on pricing (except kits,
perhaps).
Thanks for your help, Edwin.

Tom

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
<snip>
> Where in FL are you? I'm in Ormond Beach. Real estate has gone up
> about 30% since we bought here two years ago. I have a nearly 25 year
> history in FL stretching back to 1956 (pre revolution).

Got'cha beat! I'm a Cracker... been here since '48 (pre most everything!)
Wrinklewood, (on the map they insist on calling it Englewood <G>)
West coast, about half way between Sarasota and Ft. Myers.
Here it has more than doubled, and I want to sell before the market swings
to a buyer's market (SOON).

<snip>
> I can't help you with your actual question. For one thing, I'm too far
> removed, timewise, from anything I had learned on the subject when we
> were looking up there 6-8 years ago. For another, since I bought this
> 30 year old frame with brick veneer that I'm remodeling, I quit
> looking at that stuff altogether. Now I just follow materials costs,
> and frankly, I'm pretty much done with that, since my major work is
> complete.
<snip>

Lucky you! I thought five years ago when we built here we were done with
moving (excepting the ol' folks home).
Now I gonna do it again!
Thanks LRod,
Tom


> --
> LRod
<snip>

"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'm faced in deciding which type of construction for a home and for a
>>shop.
>>
>>The romantic in us likes the thought of a log home, the more practical
>>side
>>thinks CBS, stick built or even maybe manufactured... modular or prefab
>>panel.
>
>
> My only suggestion would be to go with the practical side.
>
> I've worked on the interiors of a few log homes (by 3 different
> manufacturers) and IMHO they are not worth the trouble. All the
<snip>
> As to your question of cost, if a contractor erects it, a log home
> will be very close in cost to that of standard frame
> construction...... no matter what the sales people claim.
>
>
> Mike O.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your input... it kinda adds to my general feelings about the
practical issues.
I looked at a number of links Edwin provided, and that form of construction
holds promise (I'm trading possible hurricanes for possible tornadoes) in
both strength and energy efficiency.
Thanks again,
Tom

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
> <[email protected]> clearly wrote:
<snip>
> I did the same thing 3 years ago and bailed from LoCal. I haven't had
> a day of illness since then, either. Oregon agrees with me.

Either that or LoCal was bad for you<G>.

>
<snip>

> I have fond memories of growing up in Arkansas, but I sure as
> hell wouldn't want to move back there. YMOV. ;)
>

As a location, that hadn't even occured to me.


<snip>
>
> http://www.city-data.com/city/Henderson-Tennessee.html
> Big city of 5,670? 54% female?

The scenery might be nice, but SWMBO is too good to consider other avenues.

<snip>

> Well-built modulars and prefabs can be nice. Manufactured homes are
> all strangely ceilinged and spongy floored trailers. No thanks!
>

Kida my thoughts as well, but for the "T-Rex 3 module" model we looked at in
Tn. was 80K and up for turn key.

<snip>

> Call the various mfgrs in the Henderson/Jackson area. They'll
> tell you what they have and how much they charge to put 'em up.

The next trip up will be to meet with some of the same, and maybe an
architect or engineer to plan site prep.

>
>
<snip>
> Go with a 40x80 steel building to start. You can always add more s/f
> later. <vbg> Insulate what you need to by building what amounts to a
> SIP home inside it.

I have a 30X36X14 Miracle steel truss building now and have some leak
issues, minor but annoying. I'd figured 40X60 if I can pull it.


> Wait until the colder season and you'll get a much better deal, when
> they're looking for sales and work. Have a slab poured in the hot/dry
> months, then build later.

Alas timing won't allow for such finess in planning, and this whole thing
needs to flow like dominoes (If you see Murphy, SHOOT the SOB!).

> That's my dream, anyway. My 2-car shop is still too crammed to get
> anything done. I spend an hour rearranging crap just to get to tools
> to work on the current project.
>

It gets that way in my shop/ATV garage/mower storage and yard tool haven. In
fact it was a call to the local permit folks that initiated my present
course. I wanted to build a lean-to first for lumber and storage of . above
mentioned things in; I was told no permit possible. Since the last round of
hurricanes, I'm not allowed more than 200Sq.Ft of out-building... larger and
it must be in like materials as the main building.
My shop is grandfathered!

<snip>
>
> Don't call FL locals for that. Definitely call folks in the local TN
> area you plan to settle, maybe from Memphis to Jackson to Henderson.
> Check with locals on who's reliable and who gouges. These folks (TN
> locals and TN builders) can give you the real costs and timing
> estimates.
>
> Googling for "modular home TN" and "prefab home TN" brings these +:
<snip>

> Let us know what you end up with, Tom.
>
Right about now a headache thinking of all the details!
Thanks for sharing, and for the links.
Tom

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
<snip>
> http://costest.construction.com/cest/register.asp
>
> The sign-up is benign and will be well worth your time ... and yes, I've
> personally used this particular calculator as the _starting point_ for
> small
> commercial bid estimates in the past. Bookmark it well ... it is hard as
> hell to find from scratch.
>
Thanks, Swingman...
I logged in, but will wait for SWMBO to decide the particulars, like Sq.
footage, etc. before I complete the estimate (said by one well aware of
which side the butter is on!).
Tom

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:33:34 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
> <[email protected]> clearly wrote:
>
>>
>>"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
>>> <[email protected]> clearly wrote:
>><snip>
<snipperoo>
> Y'all don't think Tennessee is no better, do ya?
> It's the SOUTH, fer chrissake. Bugs and hummerditty.
> You can have it!

I'll take bugs over that nasty white stuff any day! Not to mention that I
break out the long johns below 60degrees F.

<snipperoo>
> See what turns up along Mike Hide's suggestion of a
> free-for-the-towing ranch home.

If I can find something like that it would be nice!

<snipperoo>
> Before I left Vista, I got a real ASS full of them. The house was a
> single home on 1/3 acre lot, zoned C-200 (up to 20 units per acre).
<snipperoo>


The question of the day... Did they use Vasoline?

>
>>> Let us know what you end up with, Tom.
>>>
<snipperoo>

Tom

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:02:16 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
<snip>
>
> It snows in TN, Tom. Check the monthly stats on www.weather.com .
> A buddy's MIL lives there and his wife drives down to see her
> every time one of them is sick. In the winter, snow is a part of the
> drive from D.C. to BF, TN.
>
Well no doubt it snows there, the difference is in how much and for how
long... The folks we spoke with said some years there was none, and when it
does snow, it seldom accumulates to a significant degree. One policeman said
1" to 3" and it usually was gone in a day or two.

The weather link showed precipitation and temperature averages, record lows
and highs, etc. but didn't elaborate on whether the precipitation was rain,
sleet, snow or ice storm.

The average lows were from 27 to 31 AFAIRemember.
Tom

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:54:39 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
<snipped>
>
> The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
> represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
> I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
> the ditches with vehicles.
>
<snipped>
--
> LRod
>
Well LRod we Crackers can drive in sugar sand ;<).
All kidding aside, that is one of the things that I have seriously
considered... I have zero snow experience in a vehicle. Does this mean I
have to trade my 2wd F-150 for a 4wd? Or just get chains or similar traction
aiding devices?
Tom

"no(SPAM)vasys" <"no(SPAM)vasys"@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thomas Bunetta wrote:
<snippage>
> > Tom
>
> I have a 3/4 ton 4 WD pickup that is loaded with tons of equipment. In
> snow, for most problems, unless you're willing to jump a snow bank and
> drive across someone's front lawn it's only as good as the two wheelers
> stuck in front of and behind you.
>
> --
Hi Jack ,
I love your logic! And my hills aren't all that steep. Traffic (we hope)
won't be as you describe, it is a small town surrounded by same.
However my imagination could see just me and the guy turned sideways on the
little country road.
Tom

"Deacon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thomas,
<snipped4BW>
> Hope these options give you more to research. Best of luck.
>
> Deacon
>
Thanks Deacon,
More to consider... I'll look up the info on the insulating concrete block.
Time won't allow the labor for pre fab panels (by me).
Thanks,
Tom

<major snip>
> It _had_ to be the car, cuz apparently "crackers", particularly those not
> impressed with snow driving braggadocio, aren't supposed to know how to
> handle that.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 8/07/05
>
Hey Swingman, we crackers jes' pretend its sugar sand.
I reckon the 500 pound liftgate hanging off the rear of my 2WD f-150 might
serve a dual purpose, eh?
Tom

Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:20:43 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
><[email protected]> clearly wrote:
>
>>"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>><snip>
>>
>>> If I was building a home today. it would use Insulating Concrete Forms.
>><snip of nice links, good information, Thanks>
>>
>>That is one I hadn't thought of, to add to my confusion <G>.
>>
>>I have done searches using variations of: cost comparison of construction
>>but found nothing to even offer relative costs (item currently interested
>>in). The log sites don't seem to really list the pros and cons of that style
>>building... They tout energy efficiency and hint at needed regular
>>maintenance, but beyond that I can't find much on pricing (except kits,
>>perhaps).
>
>Check with Harold Vordos over on RCM, Tom. He's in the process of
>building one right now up in WA.
If you have not been doing research here is a site for some good
points.
http://www.southface.org/web/resources&services/restech/hpes/sf-home-performance-ES.htm

Air infiltration, good insulation (not fiberglass) and low E windows
can make a huge energy savings difference. I know the log homes have
the foam between the logs but the few I have seen developed some might
big cracks between the logs. I guess maybe it is not as big of a
problem if all the logs are kiln dried first.

Jim B.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:54:39 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Well no doubt it snows there, the difference is in how much and for how
>long... The folks we spoke with said some years there was none, and when it
>does snow, it seldom accumulates to a significant degree. One policeman said
>1" to 3" and it usually was gone in a day or two.

The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
the ditches with vehicles.

One of the funniest stories from my daughter when she was in college
(grew up in the Chicago area, went to college at Southern Illinois U;
Carbondale, way south) was the first time they had a snow when she was
there--about 1". She called up saying, "ohmigod, they're crazy here.
They closed the schools, people are slipping and sliding all over the
place."

Real snow people don't start doing that until 6-8" and if you're from
da UP, or the Dakotas, or Chautauqua County, NY, not until more than a
foot.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just what the heck are you doing trying to drive on pure black ice?
>
> Well, Norman, I wouldn't exactly go looking for black ice, *G*. But you
> run into it sometimes. SW Ontario is notorious for that.

Reminds me of one early morning when I picked up a co-worker to head for the
airport. We reached a slight down hill so I stopped at the top to see the
situation. I told Al "I'm going to go down along the curb so I'll get
traction from the old sand" (from previous snows).

We started down very slowly and Al said "I though you were going to go down
on THIS side."

I replied "so did I"

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> clearly wrote:

>Once again I come before the collective wisdom and knowledge of the
>"Wreck"...
>
>Growing tired of the population explosion here in Florida, we began thinking
>of a different lifestyle. (plus taking advantage of the explosion of local
>housing cost could mean no mortgage, or almost none!)

I did the same thing 3 years ago and bailed from LoCal. I haven't had
a day of illness since then, either. Oregon agrees with me.


>Since my Mother was born in Tennessee (Pulaski, raised in Lewisburg) and I
>have fond memories of a summer there, that's where we decided to look.

I have fond memories of growing up in Arkansas, but I sure as
hell wouldn't want to move back there. YMOV. ;)


>We found 94 acres that hasn't been timbered (select cut then) for 50 years
>or so that has a rental house on it (in need of substantial work). Located
>in Chester Co. Tn. near Henderson.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Henderson-Tennessee.html
Big city of 5,670? 54% female? Sounds good. I recently
moved North to a city of 23k and it's now getting too
big for my tastes, though I live in the county. I'm 3
miles outside city limits and prefer it that way.


>I'm faced in deciding which type of construction for a home and for a shop.
>
>The romantic in us likes the thought of a log home, the more practical side
>thinks CBS, stick built or even maybe manufactured... modular or prefab
>panel.

Well-built modulars and prefabs can be nice. Manufactured homes are
all strangely ceilinged and spongy floored trailers. No thanks!


>My problem is a search for a source that could give an approximate per
>square foot cost for the various types of construction.

Call the various mfgrs in the Henderson/Jackson area. They'll
tell you what they have and how much they charge to put 'em up.


>The good news: the Shop comes FIRST! (we intend to utilize it first for
>storage until the house gets built, assembled or towed in... whichever
>decision is reached.

Go with a 40x80 steel building to start. You can always add more s/f
later. <vbg> Insulate what you need to by building what amounts to a
SIP home inside it.

Wait until the colder season and you'll get a much better deal, when
they're looking for sales and work. Have a slab poured in the hot/dry
months, then build later.

That's my dream, anyway. My 2-car shop is still too crammed to get
anything done. I spend an hour rearranging crap just to get to tools
to work on the current project.


>Any assistance in a SWAG for me to try and compare the above building costs
>will be greatly appreciated.

Don't call FL locals for that. Definitely call folks in the local TN
area you plan to settle, maybe from Memphis to Jackson to Henderson.
Check with locals on who's reliable and who gouges. These folks (TN
locals and TN builders) can give you the real costs and timing
estimates.

Googling for "modular home TN" and "prefab home TN" brings these +:

http://www.rapidmodularhome.homestead.com/MorePhotosEconomy.html
Lovely homes from FL @ $17.95 s/f. <g>

http://www.buildingsystems.org/tenness.html Nice list, mostly NC!

http://www.nationwide-homes.com/map_tennessee.html Lebanon.

http://www.abetterplan.com/in-tennessee.html



Let us know what you end up with, Tom.



-----------------------------------------
Jack Kevorkian for Congressional physician!
http://www.diversify.com Wondrous Website Design
=================================================

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm faced in deciding which type of construction for a home and for a shop.
>
>The romantic in us likes the thought of a log home, the more practical side
>thinks CBS, stick built or even maybe manufactured... modular or prefab
>panel.


My only suggestion would be to go with the practical side.

I've worked on the interiors of a few log homes (by 3 different
manufacturers) and IMHO they are not worth the trouble. All the
manufacturers seem to have their own idea for how the logs are sealed
where they sit on top of each other and none of those ideas seem to be
adequate. Add to that all of places where you have to allow for
shrinkage of the logs and whole system is just too much trouble.
If you want the house to look like a log home, my suggestion is to
side it with t&g siding that looks like logs. Any lumber yard can
order it for you.
As to your question of cost, if a contractor erects it, a log home
will be very close in cost to that of standard frame
construction...... no matter what the sales people claim.


Mike O.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:01:15 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"LRod" wrote in message
>
>> The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
>> represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
>> I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
>> the ditches with vehicles.
>
>Problems with snow driving is understandable if you've never experienced it
>and is obviously an acquired skill, although not one I'd judge was worth
>wasting much bragging pride on ...

Those who have it are rightly proud of it. Those who don't claim it's
not worth bragging on...

>what's really baffling is why the snow
>birds (or whatever the opposite of your "crackers" is)

carpetbaggers.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I live in Kansas and we are seeing quite a few of the poured concrete
> homes going up here. We even have a company in my home town that
> manufactures the foam blocks.

Contour Packaging? Whose block is it? I know they do Integraspec.

Around here developers are building starter mansions all over the place .
The first thing they do is tear down perfectly good ranch houses just for
the land they sit on . A few of these houses are blocked up and towed to new
sites .Basically all you are paying for is the land, a new foundation and
the towing charges ..seems a fairly economical way to go to me ......

"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message

> My problem is a search for a source that could give an approximate per
> square foot cost for the various types of construction.

A commercial building calculator that will get you very close per your
geographic location:

http://costest.construction.com/cest/register.asp

The sign-up is benign and will be well worth your time ... and yes, I've
personally used this particular calculator as the _starting point_ for small
commercial bid estimates in the past. Bookmark it well ... it is hard as
hell to find from scratch.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/07/05

"Thomas Bunetta" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I'm faced in deciding which type of construction for a home and for a
> shop.
>
> The romantic in us likes the thought of a log home, the more practical
> side thinks CBS, stick built or even maybe manufactured... modular or
> prefab panel.

If I was building a home today. it would use Insulating Concrete Forms.
(ICFs) They are extremely energy efficient, reasonable cost to build with,
hurricane resistant, and have even stood up to no interior damage in a
tornado. (siding was torn off) www.polysteel.com www.greenblock.com
www.integraspec.com

You can have lots of quiet, save 50% on heating and cooling costs. You can
build from $120 to $200 a square foot, depending on what you want in the
house.

Upscale wrote:

> "Thomas Bunetta" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>All kidding aside, that is one of the things that I have seriously
>>considered... I have zero snow experience in a vehicle. Does this mean I
>>have to trade my 2wd F-150 for a 4wd? Or just get chains or similar
>
> traction
>
>>aiding devices?
>
>
> Decent snow tires or all weather radials will help. Then when it snows, you
> take your truck into a parking lot (one without the concrete markers and do
> a bunch of fishtailing and donuts and sliding stops. Aside from it being a
> lot of fun, it will get you used to how your truck handles in the snow.
>
> I haven't been driving regularly for a number of years now, but when I was,
> whenever it snowed the first time in a season, I'd do this until my mind
> became acclimated again to snow driving. Don't forget to drive slower and
> allow greater distance between vehicles. If it's really slippery out, avoid
> hills.
>
>
And get some weight over the rear axle: sandbags, cinder blocks,
mother-in-law, whatever. That's one of the benefits of 4wd: getting
some weight over the drive wheels. I will always have one 4wd vehicle.
btdt,
jo4hn

Mike O. (in [email protected]) said:

| I live in Kansas and we are seeing quite a few of the poured
| concrete homes going up here. We even have a company in my home
| town that manufactures the foam blocks.
| I haven't had the opportunity to work on one yet but one of our
| builders is working on a plan for one now.
| I talked to a heat and air guy who told me that the heating/cooling
| systems are designed to exchange the inside air at a certain rate
| (to remove moisture) because the buildings are so tight.

Interesting. In the early 80's I put up a 24x32 concrete block shop
building in southern Minnesota. Only the ceiling was insulated and it
had two 6x8 solar panels on the south side. On a typical winter day
(wind northwest at 10-20 MPH, temperature -15F) the inside temperature
usually exceeded 90F between noon and 1PM.

Encouraged by that success, I started construction of a poured
3-bedroom residence with 11-1/2" thick walls using extruded concrete
"bridge planks" for floors and roof. Insulation was sheets of 6" foam
with a bonded fiberglass outer skin. The north side was earth-bermed
up to the second story windows and the entire south wall was covered
with solar heating panels (so as to look like a single gigantic
panel).

The intent was to make the building(essentially) tornado-proof and
self-heating with a two week "flywheel" reserve. Construction and
material costs ran fairly close to $8000/floor for a projected total
cost on the close order of 24K.

A divorce mid-project put an end to construction; but the concept is a
good one. My reasoning at the time was that I could either pay a bunch
of guys to bend nails in green lumber or put the same money into
stronger and more durable materials. It's definitely a workable
approach.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

"LRod" wrote in message

Swingman" wrote:
>
> >
> >"LRod" wrote in message
> >
> >> The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
> >> represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
> >> I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
> >> the ditches with vehicles.
> >
> >Problems with snow driving is understandable if you've never experienced
it
> >and is obviously an acquired skill, although not one I'd judge was worth
> >wasting much bragging pride on ...
>
> Those who have it are rightly proud of it. Those who don't claim it's
> not worth bragging on...

Not necessarily ... what's really worth bragging about is not having the
need ... the "why" of what all those snowbirds are doing down here, putting
up with the "crackers", during the winter months in the first place.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/07/05

"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> <snip>
> > http://costest.construction.com/cest/register.asp
> >
> > The sign-up is benign and will be well worth your time ... and yes, I've
> > personally used this particular calculator as the _starting point_ for
> > small
> > commercial bid estimates in the past. Bookmark it well ... it is hard as
> > hell to find from scratch.
> >
> Thanks, Swingman...
> I logged in, but will wait for SWMBO to decide the particulars, like Sq.
> footage, etc. before I complete the estimate (said by one well aware of
> which side the butter is on!).

To do my residential estimates and budgets I use a suite of tools based on
Excel macros called "UDA Construction Office".

www.constructioncontracts.com/

It would be a bit steep in price unless you are planning on doing the
general contracting yourself, then it would be well worth the few hundred
dollars as an estimating tool, a budget tool and a bidding/contracts tool.

It is a relatively painless matter of inputting a few parameters and it
spits out a fairly comprehensive estimate for "industry standard"
residential construction, from soup to nuts. If you get to the point where
you have your parameters down fairly well, it is within the realm of
possibility that, on a quite evening, the input could be done via e-mail and
the results e-mailed to you.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/07/05

Thomas Bunetta wrote:

> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:54:39 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
>>The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
>>represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
>>I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
>>the ditches with vehicles.
>>
>
> <snipped>
> Well LRod we Crackers can drive in sugar sand ;<).
> All kidding aside, that is one of the things that I have seriously
> considered... I have zero snow experience in a vehicle. Does this
mean > I have to trade my 2wd F-150 for a 4wd? Or just get chains or
similar > traction aiding devices?
> Tom

I have a 3/4 ton 4 WD pickup that is loaded with tons of equipment. In
snow, for most problems, unless you're willing to jump a snow bank and
drive across someone's front lawn it's only as good as the two wheelers
stuck in front of and behind you.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:02:16 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> clearly wrote:

>I'll take bugs over that nasty white stuff any day! Not to mention that I
>break out the long johns below 60degrees F.

It snows in TN, Tom. Check the monthly stats on www.weather.com .
A buddy's MIL lives there and his wife drives down to see her
every time one of them is sick. In the winter, snow is a part of the
drive from D.C. to BF, TN.


><snipperoo>
>> See what turns up along Mike Hide's suggestion of a
>> free-for-the-towing ranch home.
>
>If I can find something like that it would be nice!

Ah, you betcha.


><snipperoo>
>> Before I left Vista, I got a real ASS full of them. The house was a
>> single home on 1/3 acre lot, zoned C-200 (up to 20 units per acre).
><snipperoo>
>
>The question of the day... Did they use Vasoline?

Hell, no! Why do you suppose I'm still so sore about it? :-/


----------------------------------------------------------
--== EAT RIGHT...KEEP FIT...DIE ANYWAY ==--
http://www.diversify.com/stees.html - Schnazzy Tees online
----------------------------------------------------------

"Thomas Bunetta" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> All kidding aside, that is one of the things that I have seriously
> considered... I have zero snow experience in a vehicle. Does this mean I
> have to trade my 2wd F-150 for a 4wd? Or just get chains or similar
traction
> aiding devices?

Decent snow tires or all weather radials will help. Then when it snows, you
take your truck into a parking lot (one without the concrete markers and do
a bunch of fishtailing and donuts and sliding stops. Aside from it being a
lot of fun, it will get you used to how your truck handles in the snow.

I haven't been driving regularly for a number of years now, but when I was,
whenever it snowed the first time in a season, I'd do this until my mind
became acclimated again to snow driving. Don't forget to drive slower and
allow greater distance between vehicles. If it's really slippery out, avoid
hills.

Don't know of your financial situation. But if you want cheap, but sound
building, be ready to do most of it with friends and family. Start with
earth sheltered housing. There are many alternative houses out there. Made
with tires, and filled with packed dirt, concert with soda cans/glass
bottles. Rammed earth, slip-form concert. Many more. Just remember, to
keep cost down, your labor goes up, fast.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
>> A 'limited-slip' differential ("Posi-trac", or similar) is a *big* help
>> in
>> adverse conditions.
>
> 'cept on pure black ice, where it tends to force the vehicle in a
> straight line when you're trying to turn.

Just what the heck are you doing trying to drive on pure black ice? Done a
LOT of winter/blizzard driving all my life, 2 wheel front and rear, 18
wheels. The one thing I learned above all is get off the road when it's
black ice!(if you haven't already slid off the road, that is) Stuck in a
freezing rain on I-69 in IN, drivers on shoulder had to shut the diesels
down because just the vibration of it idling was causing rig to slide off
the shoulder into the ditch.

Front wheel drive may be a little better for the inexperienced who have
learned on it, but if someone has learned and driven on snow with rear wheel
drive, then they will NOT do the right thing with front drive unless they
are thinking about it all the time. Learned rear drive instincts are the
wrong thing to do with front drive.

Limited slip does help, and weight in the back of a p/u helps. I use 5 or 6
long tubes of "traction grit", about 300+ lb. right between the wheel wells
with a wood 2 x 6 frame to keep them from sliding forward. Worse comes to
worse, you can cut them open and spread the grit under the wheels.

One of my favorite gripes are 4 wheel drives. Yes, as someone said, they do
GO, but they don't stop a bit better, and everyone with an SUV suddenly
thinks they're "bulletproof"!

LROD knows where I live, so he knows that I know whereof I speak. I'll get
off the soapbox now.
--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:05 -0400, "Norman D. Crow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>...4 wheel drives. Yes, as someone said, they do
>>GO, but they don't stop a bit better...
>
> I have absolutely the same feeling about 4WD (although I love it). You
> can go like hell, but...and then I use the exact words you did.
>
> A friend of mine from Minnesota (they know a little about snow
> driving, too) put it best years ago as I was moving from Florida to
> Illinois for my matriculation--I had asked him about snow tires. He
> said he'd never had 'em. And in 26 nears I never had 'em either.
>
> He said it's all about speed control. And he's right. Don't do
> anything fast. Don't try to accelerate fast, don't try to slow down
> fast, don't try to turn fast, don't try to drive fast. There's a whole
> lot more anticipation in snow driving than regular. As we say in
> aviation, you have to stay ahead of the airplane.
>
> Someone mentioned the parking lot thing. I used to love to do that,
> just for the sport, although I educated SWMBO and trained the two kids
> that way. There's nothing more effective for learning how to handle a
> car than spinning donuts, slipping and sliding, and reversing
> direction on a snow covered parking lot..
>
>>LROD knows where I live, so he knows that I know whereof I speak. I'll get
>>off the soapbox now.
>
> You may have noticed I mentioned Chautauqua County elsewhere in this
> thread. Not for nothing.
>

OOPS! Missed that little mention at the end of your post. Anybody who can
consistently survive winters here in hilly Jamestown can be said to be
experienced. Next best thing to black ice is "wet" snow(@about 30 deg.F) on
a brick paved hill. Wheeeeeeeee!

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

In article <[email protected]>,
jo4hn <[email protected]> wrote:

> And get some weight over the rear axle: sandbags, cinder blocks,
> mother-in-law, whatever.

Weight on the wheels will help with linear traction and braking...BUT...
too much will cause the ass-end to 'pendulum' away on you when you swing
into an unexpected turn.
DO ask me how I know that..*G*

...btw.... when transporting a mother-in-law, it is legal here in
Kanuckistan to leave the gate open.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

> A 'limited-slip' differential ("Posi-trac", or similar) is a *big* help in
> adverse conditions.

'cept on pure black ice, where it tends to force the vehicle in a
straight line when you're trying to turn.

In article <[email protected]>,
"Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Just what the heck are you doing trying to drive on pure black ice?

Well, Norman, I wouldn't exactly go looking for black ice, *G*. But you
run into it sometimes. SW Ontario is notorious for that.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:05 -0400, "Norman D. Crow"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>...4 wheel drives. Yes, as someone said, they do
>GO, but they don't stop a bit better...

I have absolutely the same feeling about 4WD (although I love it). You
can go like hell, but...and then I use the exact words you did.

A friend of mine from Minnesota (they know a little about snow
driving, too) put it best years ago as I was moving from Florida to
Illinois for my matriculation--I had asked him about snow tires. He
said he'd never had 'em. And in 26 nears I never had 'em either.

He said it's all about speed control. And he's right. Don't do
anything fast. Don't try to accelerate fast, don't try to slow down
fast, don't try to turn fast, don't try to drive fast. There's a whole
lot more anticipation in snow driving than regular. As we say in
aviation, you have to stay ahead of the airplane.

Someone mentioned the parking lot thing. I used to love to do that,
just for the sport, although I educated SWMBO and trained the two kids
that way. There's nothing more effective for learning how to handle a
car than spinning donuts, slipping and sliding, and reversing
direction on a snow covered parking lot..

>LROD knows where I live, so he knows that I know whereof I speak. I'll get
>off the soapbox now.

You may have noticed I mentioned Chautauqua County elsewhere in this
thread. Not for nothing.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"LRod" wrote in message
>
>> The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
>> represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
>> I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
>> the ditches with vehicles.
>
>Problems with snow driving is understandable if you've never experienced it
>and is obviously an acquired skill, although not one I'd judge was worth
>wasting much bragging pride on ... what's really baffling is why the snow
>birds (or whatever the opposite of your "crackers" is) visiting down here in
>Texas can't seem to drive more than 15mph in a gentle rain?

Are their 4 way emergency flashers on in that light rain as they go
down the highway?

Jim B.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:20:43 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> clearly wrote:

>"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
><snip>
>
>> If I was building a home today. it would use Insulating Concrete Forms.
><snip of nice links, good information, Thanks>
>
>That is one I hadn't thought of, to add to my confusion <G>.
>
>I have done searches using variations of: cost comparison of construction
>but found nothing to even offer relative costs (item currently interested
>in). The log sites don't seem to really list the pros and cons of that style
>building... They tout energy efficiency and hint at needed regular
>maintenance, but beyond that I can't find much on pricing (except kits,
>perhaps).

Check with Harold Vordos over on RCM, Tom. He's in the process of
building one right now up in WA.


--

If it weren't for jumping to conclusions, some of us wouldn't get any exercise.
www.diversify.com - Jump-free website programming

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:33:34 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> clearly wrote:

>
>"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, the opaque "Thomas Bunetta"
>> <[email protected]> clearly wrote:
><snip>
>> I did the same thing 3 years ago and bailed from LoCal. I haven't had
>> a day of illness since then, either. Oregon agrees with me.
>
>Either that or LoCal was bad for you<G>.

C - Both of the above.


>> I have fond memories of growing up in Arkansas, but I sure as
>> hell wouldn't want to move back there. YMOV. ;)
>
>As a location, that hadn't even occured to me.

Y'all don't think Tennessee is no better, do ya?
It's the SOUTH, fer chrissake. Bugs and hummerditty.
You can have it!


>> http://www.city-data.com/city/Henderson-Tennessee.html
>> Big city of 5,670? 54% female?
>
>The scenery might be nice, but SWMBO is too good to consider other avenues.

PW noted. <snicker>


>Kida my thoughts as well, but for the "T-Rex 3 module" model we looked at in
>Tn. was 80K and up for turn key.

See what turns up along Mike Hide's suggestion of a
free-for-the-towing ranch home.


>> Call the various mfgrs in the Henderson/Jackson area. They'll
>> tell you what they have and how much they charge to put 'em up.
>
>The next trip up will be to meet with some of the same, and maybe an
>architect or engineer to plan site prep.

They have those in TN? <duckin', big time>


><snip>
>> Go with a 40x80 steel building to start. You can always add more s/f
>> later. <vbg> Insulate what you need to by building what amounts to a
>> SIP home inside it.
>
>I have a 30X36X14 Miracle steel truss building now and have some leak
>issues, minor but annoying. I'd figured 40X60 if I can pull it.

OK, take the little one with you for the tractors, storage, and such.


>> Wait until the colder season and you'll get a much better deal, when
>> they're looking for sales and work. Have a slab poured in the hot/dry
>> months, then build later.
>
>Alas timing won't allow for such finess in planning, and this whole thing
>needs to flow like dominoes (If you see Murphy, SHOOT the SOB!).

Condolences.


>It gets that way in my shop/ATV garage/mower storage and yard tool haven. In
>fact it was a call to the local permit folks that initiated my present
>course. I wanted to build a lean-to first for lumber and storage of . above
>mentioned things in; I was told no permit possible. Since the last round of
>hurricanes, I'm not allowed more than 200Sq.Ft of out-building... larger and
>it must be in like materials as the main building.
>My shop is grandfathered!

You were lucky for that, anyway. Those permit folks can be nastyass
sumbishes, can't they?

Before I left Vista, I got a real ASS full of them. The house was a
single home on 1/3 acre lot, zoned C-200 (up to 20 units per acre).
I was on propane and septic, but they had put in gas lines to the
property when they put the street through.

The realtor went to the City offices and found the price for running
sewer line to the house at $50/ft (400+ feet). Zoning said we could
put up 5 units on that lot, a big selling point.

2 months later, when the 4th serious potential buyer checked, the
price of sewer was at $100/ft and zoning said 3 units max, with
parking. I'd been HAD by the city once again!

I lost at least $70k on the sale because the Shitty of Vista squatted
on me once again. The first time was when they let the contractor who
developed the housing above me to use an alternative routing for the
sewer, effectively keeping my property totally isolated from sewer. I
had OKed giving him the front strip of property to him for putting me
on sewer and sidewalks, about $6,000 extra for him in exchange for a
4-20' swath 150' long, well worth it. The area across from me was a
City park and would get no sewer installed, the area behind/below me
was on a closed loop system which had been poorly engineered and could
handle no more connections. His choice to route around me left my
property with only one route to sewer, close to $50,000.

The contractor got an OK to do 2:1 grading for the slope above me but
they did 1:1 instead. That caused mudslides during an extra heavy rain
we had one year and mud filled my back yard. I didn't note that it
also filled the crawl space under the house until years later when the
termite guys came to inspect. He told me that he'd have to excavate to
finish inspecting, but that the house had more termites than any other
building he'd inspected in his 20+ years of pest control. His quote
was something like $6,500+ to start.

LoCal bad for me? Just perhaps. <sigh>


>> Let us know what you end up with, Tom.
>>
>Right about now a headache thinking of all the details!
>Thanks for sharing, and for the links.

Jewelcome.


--

If it weren't for jumping to conclusions, some of us wouldn't get any exercise.
www.diversify.com - Jump-free website programming

>>All kidding aside, that is one of the things that I have seriously
>>considered... I have zero snow experience in a vehicle. Does this mean I
>>have to trade my 2wd F-150 for a 4wd? Or just get chains or similar
>>traction
>>aiding devices?
>>Tom

Well the first time will surely be a fun trip for you.

If you are concerned (and you should be) get a neighbor to take you to a
large unplowed parking lot. Get behind the wheel and let it rip. After a
few slides and spins, you'll find it just takes a light touch and thinking
ahead. Snow is not bad at all, but ice can be terrifying.

Some people should not drive in the snow at all. I was going to work one day
and saw lights flashing around a bend. When I got there a car had slid off
the side. Nothing serious, but it had to be pulled out by a tow truck. On
the way home that evening as I crested a hill, a car going down was off the
side of the road. Yep, same one.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:30:41 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I live in Kansas and we are seeing quite a few of the poured concrete
>> homes going up here. We even have a company in my home town that
>> manufactures the foam blocks.
>
>Contour Packaging? Whose block is it? I know they do Integraspec.


The company making blocks here is Ruud Building Systems.
From what I can tell they manufacture the Logix system blocks.
Not so coincidentally the same guy owns a local concrete company.


Mike O.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:30:24 -0400, "Thomas Bunetta"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Growing tired of the population explosion here in Florida, we began thinking
>of a different lifestyle. (plus taking advantage of the explosion of local
>housing cost could mean no mortgage, or almost none!)

Where in FL are you? I'm in Ormond Beach. Real estate has gone up
about 30% since we bought here two years ago. I have a nearly 25 year
history in FL stretching back to 1956 (pre revolution).

For us Federal retirees, TN is very attractive because it doesn't tax
your retirement income (NC, another area we were considering, does).
We came very near moving there (far southeastern area). How we wound
up here is an involved story.

I can't help you with your actual question. For one thing, I'm too far
removed, timewise, from anything I had learned on the subject when we
were looking up there 6-8 years ago. For another, since I bought this
30 year old frame with brick veneer that I'm remodeling, I quit
looking at that stuff altogether. Now I just follow materials costs,
and frankly, I'm pretty much done with that, since my major work is
complete.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

>>Well LRod we Crackers can drive in sugar sand ;<).
>>All kidding aside, that is one of the things that I have seriously
>>considered... I have zero snow experience in a vehicle. Does this mean I
>>have to trade my 2wd F-150 for a 4wd? Or just get chains or similar traction
>>aiding devices?
>>Tom
>>
>>
>
>The -big- secret to driving in bad weather, is 'finesse'. go easy on the
>gas pedal, easy on the brakes, and easy on the steering. "Plan ahead",
>and minimize the need for abrupt changes.
>
>A 'limited-slip' differential ("Posi-trac", or similar) is a *big* help in
>adverse conditions. 4wd is even better (it always includes 'limited-slip'
>between wheels), but the advantage of 4-wheel over 2-wheel is minor, compared
>to the benefits of limited-slip over a standard rear-end.
>
>Emergency handling (regardless of whether it is snow, rain, or dry-pavement)
>characteristics -- and what you do as the driver -- *do* vary greatly,
>depending on whether you have front-, rear-, or all-wheel drive.
>
>This is _mostly_ a matter of being familiar with what you have, and knowing
>how to use it. Front-wheel drive has some advantage -- mostly in that
>it is easier for the _un-skilled_ driver to 'do the right thing'.
>
It should be noted that rear wheel drive pick-ups and rear wheel
drive cars are different in how they act in snow. Trucks are VERY
light over the wheels and the back end can let go rather easily. Some
weight in the back is helpful, but can be dangerous in sudden stop
situations. 4 wheel drive certainly helps in starting out, going up
snowy hills and getting out of snow drifts (when you slide into them
or when the snowplow plows you into your driveway). Niether 4 wheel
drive nor limited slip helps in slowing down, stopping or going
downhill though :-)

The best car I ever drove in the snow was an old Checker taxicab...you
know, the ones that look like 1950's cars. They were heavy rear wheel
drive cars. I drove cab all over very hilly Morgantown WV one winter
while in college. Morgantown did not believe in salt. They did a
little plowing and a few cinders but mostly you drove on the packed
snow.

Dave Hall

Living in Fresno, CA in the HOT central valley we had a dusting, guess
you'd call it, of snow and cars were mostly on the curbs and ANY
driving that morning was a real gas! Melted before noon thankfully.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:39:07 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

>The problem is, for those accustomed to driving in snow, 1-3" doesn't
>represent any sort of impediment whatsoever. For those who aren't (and
>I'm guessing a cracker isn't) 1" is enough to close schools and fill
>the ditches with vehicles.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dave Hall" wrote in message
>
>> The best car I ever drove in the snow was an old Checker taxicab...
>
> Best one this "cracker" ever drove in heavy snow/ice, by far, was a 50's
> VW
> bug, in Bavaria, during two winters of record snow fall.

Mine was a '62 Corvair Monza with oversized (7.00 x 13) tires. Hardest part
was weaving around the cars that were stuck on the hills.