On 4/10/2012 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>
>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>> mentality.
>
> The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
> Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
> the MBA's you speak of.Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
> a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
> sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
> can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
> it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.
>
> I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
> up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.
Bullshit! :)
Jack, my friend, you miss the point, and concept expressed in the term,
entirely.
Instead of continuing the innovation and engineering that built
_quality_ into a previously respected brand/product, the name of the
game, as played by the current "Ryobi" and MBAthink ilk, is:
~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
and quality engineering.
~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
_price point engineering_ .
~ Manufacturing same as cheaply as possible by use of cheap materials,
low cost, unskilled labor
~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising, to dupes, suckers, and
the ignorant unsuspecting, by relying solely upon the previous
reputation of the brand, and for whatever the market will bear.
All above, basic tenets of "MBAthink" as expressed. (IOW, you do not
have to have any knowledge whatsoever of a product in order to
successfully market it by simply buying the name and making it cheap ...
AKA "fuck the quality, it's our bottom line, stupid" ... and we see
what kind of crap that has served up)
To equate that methodology to products like Festool is ridiculous to an
extreme. That is an inarguable fact, and to say otherwise is totally
ignoring the reality of much of the current global market place.
And, in case you were somehow not paying attention, here is just one
small example of what the face of that concept looks like:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5723587662054187346
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Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
>> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
>> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>
> How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell
> me if you think a seat belt is small in price...
>
> AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I
> have the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required
> and was only $50 more expensive.
>
I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
the discussion.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/12/2012 11:07 PM, CW wrote:
>
> And there was the "I don't want the government telling me that I have to
> wear seat belts." I am a safe driver and not foolish like the other
> drivers. Seat belts are going to cause more accidents because drivers
> will have a false sense of security.
> ===================================================================
> Then there was my FILs excuse. "I never wear seatbelts. In an accident,
> I'd rather be thrown clear". The man had the IQ of a turnip.
>
RTFLMAO,
And I just knew you were going to say that he would simply brace himself
against the steering wheel in the event he crashed into something going
70 mph. ;~)
On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Snip
>
>
>> IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
>> but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
>> issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
>> thousands.
>
> Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
> small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.
You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.
>
>
>> Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
>> the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
>> is in today.
>
> <g>
>
>
>> Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that pissed a few people off?
>> Absoluteness! It pisses me off that the other manufacturers did not
>> want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
>> over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
>> Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
>> had their chance and watched it go by.
>
> Did you just make that up?<g> See if you can prove that the mfgrs
> didn't want us to see this happen.
No, that is just common sense. Had the manufacturers thought it would
have sold they would have been making them today. They chose not to let
us have the opportunity.
>
> See if you can learn the truth behind the rejections, eh? I'll bet
> that you aren't so proud of your Gassy friend after that.</guess>
I am not proud of any one except how SawStop has by far exceed most
every opne expectations especially those that considered it vapor ware.
I am not the kind of person that has to be for or against something.
That kind of thinking is too limiting.
>
>
>>>> And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
>>>> technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
>>>> are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
>>>
>>> For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
>>> attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
>>> to what our United States Gov't means to me.
>
>> Apply that to your seat belts and unleaded gas.
>
> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell me
if you think a seat belt is small in price...
AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I have
the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required and was
only $50 more expensive.
>
>>>> I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>>>> regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>>>> saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>>>> to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
>>>
>>> A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
>>> That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
You totally missed the point. I cannot explain it any simpler.
>>
>> Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
>> was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
>> spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
>> expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
>> take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
>> things being relative..
>
> I paid $119 for my refurb Ryobi saw. A $300 option would have put it
> up to about $600 retail. Lots of people buy the cheap 10" saws, Leon.
> Not everyone can afford $4k for a SS or Unisaw. Check your reference
> levels.
Apples new saws, Oranges, refurbished saws.
Now change that to a new saw and adjust prices 50 years ago to todays
prices or visa versa.
>
>>>> We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
>>>> have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
>>>> buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
>>>> homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
>>>> sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
>>>> power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.
>>>>
>>>> This is no different.
>>>
>>> Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
>>> us now, thanks to SS.
>>
>> None that "you" know of, do some research.
>
> Do you know of specific regs back then? If so, let me know. There
> weren't many. The nanny state came up way later. We grew up in it.
Ummm the guard was not an option.
>
>> Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?
>
> I guarantee he wasn't ruining Corvairs or contractor lives in the
> '40s.
>
What ever!
On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>
>>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
>>> quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>>
>> Let me guess, you own a Toyota?
>
> Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
> years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
> I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
> agree with my choice.
I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
do until then.
"Swingman" wrote
> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right
> here!
>
> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make a
> living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not "be
> right for you"?
>
> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
> one, get one ... because you need one.
>
There ya go. There is no more politically correct advice than to ask your
doctor.
And we all know how politically correct Swingman is. LOL
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
>>> a new level of interest.
>>
>> I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
>> tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
>> have been getting too used to junk.
>
> Yeah, thats the problem alright.
>
>> That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
>> you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
>> and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
>> realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
>
> I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
> offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
> of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
> need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
> cleaners and Festool.
Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>
>> And, a much better experience in some cases.
>
> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
> and quiet it might be...
>
BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.
Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right here!
How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make
a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not
"be right for you"?
I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
one, get one ... because you need one.
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might
>>>>> create
>>>>> a new level of interest.
>>>>
>>>> I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
>>>> tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
>>>> have been getting too used to junk.
>>>
>>> Yeah, thats the problem alright.
>>>
>>>> That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
>>>> you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
>>>> and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
>>>> realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
>>>
>>> I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
>>> offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
>>> of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
>>> need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
>>> cleaners and Festool.
>>
>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
>> quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>
> Let me guess, you own a Toyota?
Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
agree with my choice.
>
> OK, that was a poor example, a Lincoln PU does not cost 5-7 times as
> much as a Toyota. Let me restate, I know a bunch of people that think a
> Mercedes is good enough, and they don't really need a Bentley.
And as I pointed out previousely, ShopVac too makes a vac that is more
expensive than the Festool and a number of them are only about 1/2 the
price as a Festool.
All you do Jack is make execrated untrue comments about the Festool
brand and any other brand you have a hard on against. Damn, if you have
no experience with the product I would advise getting some as your
comments clearly demonstrate how uneducated you really are about the
product. But it clearly is more tool than you will probably ever need.
I you like less expensive products and they do it for you then good for
you but your continuing show of ignorance is quickly getting old.
>
>>>> And, a much better experience in some cases.
>
>>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>>> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>>> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>>> and quiet it might be...
>>>
>> BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
>> muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac pretty
>> much runs 2~4 hours at a time.
>
> True there, I've never run my shop vac for 4 hours at a time, even when
> vacuuming the water out of my basement. Ergo, I don't need an industrial
> vac, or a home vac priced at industrial rates.
And because you deem Festool the most expensive vac on earth, and is a
god awful color of green, no one else can benefit from a more expensive
brand tool that is designed to go the distance day in and day out?
>
>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>
> I'm not, particularly in shop vacs.
>
>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>
> Yet, Millions, and millions of (brainless?) workers earn their living
> with non Festool tools, and manage to get by just fine.
Your words and completely missed the point again. I was directing the
comment directly towards you, not those that make a living using their
tools. Just because you don't see the need does not mean the need does
not exist.
On 4/14/2012 6:50 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:11:06 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> If the saw saves a trip to the ER it is likely that it has actually paid
>> for your whole shop.
>
> Considering the angst and stress associated with such a visit, there's
> also a very good chance that avoiding that visit increases your
> health and lengthens your life a little too.
Dannnnng. I might give some people super powers too.. LOL
Yeah the trip to the ER is a stressful time.
On 4/15/2012 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:
> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
> If you are earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
It is a simple as the above.
And that _is_ a no brainer.
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On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 4:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
>> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right
>> here!
>>
>> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make
>> a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not
>> "be right for you"?
>>
>> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
>> one, get one ... because you need one.
>
> ...and here I thought Leon was you bud???
>
That was pointed at Larry
On 4/15/2012 7:48 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step
>>>> down in
>>>> quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>>>
>>> Let me guess, you own a Toyota?
>>
>> Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
>> years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
>> I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
>> agree with my choice.
>
>
> I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with a
> gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to do
> until then.
my gas duelly pulls my 5r just fine. I'd probably out pull most coal
burners on some of the hills i do.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:08:20 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
>>weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
>>are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
>>interested most in SS tech.
>
> Guss we'll have to wait and see. Eventually, some survey will be
> released on age and or something else brackets.
I'd expect a strong correlation with the depth of the purchaser's pockets
too... whether it's individuals' discretionary income pockets or
organizations' budgetary pockets.
I see that Saw Stop has a job site cart version of their Contractor's saw
now... and an industrial version of their cabinet saw (e..g, 3 phase 3, 5
and 7.5 HP).
It looks like some of the speculation here about Saw Stop's market is
already playing out.
John
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:11:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>If the saw saves a trip to the ER it is likely that it has actually paid
>for your whole shop.
Considering the angst and stress associated with such a visit, there's
also a very good chance that avoiding that visit increases your
health and lengthens your life a little too.
On 4/16/2012 7:51 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Swingman" wrote
>> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
>> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right
>> here!
>>
>> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't
>> make a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL,
>> may not "be right for you"?
>>
>> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't
>> have one, get one ... because you need one.
>>
> There ya go. There is no more politically correct advice than to ask
> your doctor.
>
> And we all know how politically correct Swingman is. LOL
Why not ... nothing else seems to have made a dent in the thickheadedness.
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
>> a new level of interest.
>
> I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
> tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
> have been getting too used to junk.
Yeah, thats the problem alright.
> That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
> you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
> and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
> realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.
> And, a much better experience in some cases.
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:38:35 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>Well, I think what he's saying is that some noises (such as a shop vac) are
>expected by most customers, and not something that is going to be a deal
>breaker. Kinda like the noise they expect from a hammer or a circular saw.
>In the scheme of things, during any kind of a home remodel or repair, how
>much do you think a customer really notices the noise (or lack of it) from a
>shop vac?
If they've had work done before? Yes they would notice it if there's a
marked difference. And if the type of tool being used only contributes
to the benefit of the contractor like you've been trying to suggest?
Yes, I hear you on that, but ultimately a better experience by the
contractor working onsite, benefits the home owner.
On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
>> a new level of interest.
>
> I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
> tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
> have been getting too used to junk.
Yeah, thats the problem alright.
> That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
> you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
> and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
> realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.
> And, a much better experience in some cases.
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/15/2012 12:23 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:08:20 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
>> weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
>> are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
>> interested most in SS tech.
>
> Guss we'll have to wait and see. Eventually, some survey will be
> released on age and or something else brackets.
If you need a survey to determine the dangerous affects age has on a guy
running powerful saws and such, you need to get out more often, but even
if you don't, you will learn first hand sooner or later.
You must be a gov't worker, no?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might
>>>> create
>>>> a new level of interest.
>>>
>>> I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
>>> tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
>>> have been getting too used to junk.
>>
>> Yeah, thats the problem alright.
>>
>>> That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
>>> you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
>>> and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
>>> realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
>>
>> I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
>> offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
>> of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
>> need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
>> cleaners and Festool.
>
> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
> quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
Let me guess, you own a Toyota?
OK, that was a poor example, a Lincoln PU does not cost 5-7 times as
much as a Toyota. Let me restate, I know a bunch of people that think a
Mercedes is good enough, and they don't really need a Bentley.
>>> And, a much better experience in some cases.
>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>> and quiet it might be...
>>
> BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
> muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac pretty
> much runs 2~4 hours at a time.
True there, I've never run my shop vac for 4 hours at a time, even when
vacuuming the water out of my basement. Ergo, I don't need an
industrial vac, or a home vac priced at industrial rates.
> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
I'm not, particularly in shop vacs.
> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
Yet, Millions, and millions of (brainless?) workers earn their living
with non-Festool tools, and manage to get by just fine.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/16/2012 4:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right here!
>
> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make
> a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not
> "be right for you"?
>
> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
> one, get one ... because you need one.
...and here I thought Leon was you bud???
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/16/2012 6:36 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 4:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
>>> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right
>>> here!
>>>
>>> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make
>>> a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not
>>> "be right for you"?
>>>
>>> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
>>> one, get one ... because you need one.
>>
>> ...and here I thought Leon was you bud???
>>
>
> That was pointed at Larry
I was being sarcastic...
I could have sworn it was pointed at me...
Bone heads have said worse when they don't agree with someone and have
no reasonable rebuttal to the arguments presented. Really, either raise
your points (as you and I have done) or get the F*** out of the water if
you aren't interested in the topic. It's really that simple, and makes
far more sense than name calling and other substitutes for valid arguments.
Besides, my doctor likely knows zip about Festools, and if she did, I'd
still be more likely to listen to your arguments for them than hers.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/16/2012 6:50 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 5:36 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/16/2012 4:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't
>>>> have
>>>> one, get one ... because you need one.
>>>
>>> ...and here I thought Leon was you bud???
>>>
>>
>> That was pointed at Larry
>
> And, if the shoe fits there too ...
That shoe doesn't fit Larry any more than me. I doubt his doctor knows
any more than he does about Festools. Perhaps rather than us getting a
doctor, you might look into finding new shoes that fit...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 4:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
>> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right
>> here!
>>
>> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make
>> a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not
>> "be right for you"?
>>
>> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
>> one, get one ... because you need one.
>
> ...and here I thought Leon was you bud???
Yep, and he was talking directly at you:
On 4/15/2012 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how
>> pretty and quiet it might be...
> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you
> are a hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
Here, this just may help with your problem:
http://www.zocdoc.com/
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:08:20 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
>weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
>are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
>interested most in SS tech.
Guss we'll have to wait and see. Eventually, some survey will be
released on age and or something else brackets.
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
>a new level of interest.
I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.
That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
And, a much better experience in some cases.
On 4/16/2012 5:36 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 4:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
>>> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right
>>> here!
>>>
>>> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make
>>> a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not
>>> "be right for you"?
>>>
>>> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
>>> one, get one ... because you need one.
>>
>> ...and here I thought Leon was you bud???
>>
>
> That was pointed at Larry
And, if the shoe fits there too ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/11/2012 8:18 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
>>> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
>>> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>>
>> How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell
>> me if you think a seat belt is small in price...
>>
>> AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I
>> have the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required
>> and was only $50 more expensive.
>>
>
> I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
> Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
> when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
> the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
> fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
> the discussion.
>
LOL, I do recall all the complaints. The chest harness section of the
belt was a separate piece had had to be rehung above the drivers door or
it would get close up in the door when you exited. And then there was
the pressure against one's "breasts" that was uncomfortable.
And there was the "I don't want the government telling me that I have to
wear seat belts." I am a safe driver and not foolish like the other
drivers. Seat belts are going to cause more accidents because drivers
will have a false sense of security.
My favorite was when the government limited speedometers to 85 mph.
That was dangerous as you could not tell how much over 85 mph you were
actually driving. Am I going 95 or 125??? LOL
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
>>> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
>>> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>>
>> How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell
>> me if you think a seat belt is small in price...
>>
>> AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I
>> have the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required
>> and was only $50 more expensive.
>>
>
> I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
> Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
> when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
> the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal.
That must have been me. They found me and fined me $40. I hope the
roads are safer! Oh..you mean the "backlash" was almost universal...duh.
The
> fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
> the discussion.
>
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 4/11/2012 8:18 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
>>> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
>>> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>>
>> How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell
>> me if you think a seat belt is small in price...
>>
>> AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I
>> have the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required
>> and was only $50 more expensive.
>>
>
> I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
> Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
> when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look
> at
> the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal.
> The
> fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context
> of
> the discussion.
>
LOL, I do recall all the complaints. The chest harness section of the
belt was a separate piece had had to be rehung above the drivers door or
it would get close up in the door when you exited. And then there was
the pressure against one's "breasts" that was uncomfortable.
And there was the "I don't want the government telling me that I have to
wear seat belts." I am a safe driver and not foolish like the other
drivers. Seat belts are going to cause more accidents because drivers
will have a false sense of security.
===================================================================
Then there was my FILs excuse. "I never wear seatbelts. In an accident, I'd
rather be thrown clear". The man had the IQ of a turnip.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:55:13 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
>> way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
>> much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
>> chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology.
>
>So, here's the thought that keeps coming back to me... (and mind you - I
>have no more insight into this than you, so we're both really dealing in the
>realm of speculation). I'm wondering how much the legal department got into
>the mix and screwed up any possible deals - moreso than any economic issues.
>Lawyers are notorious for not wanting to admit any current or past
>liabilities - even beyond what would make sense to you and I. I wonder how
>much Ryobi's and every other manufacturer's legal departments agreed that
>there was too much legal exposure if they embraced this technology. Price
>may also have been an issue, but I just keep wondering if it wasn't more
>than just price.
Oh, I'm absolutely certain there was subterfuge there from the legal
dept's on both sides.
>> And for
>> them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
>> with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
>> it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
>
>Unethical is a very subjective term - and I do note your use of the phrase
>"in my book". I just can't get past the idea that there is more to this
>entire story than has made the press. Maybe I'm wrong...
I try to remind Leon that everything said here on the Wreck is
opinion. But I'm fairly certain that money was the main culprit.
>> For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
>> attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
>> to what our United States Gov't means to me.
>>
>
>Could be - but only on the surface. If the entire rest of the industry is
>willfully electing to do nothing, then, is that one man (or set of 4
>attorneys), really all that toxic? Opportunistic? Sure. Toxic - not sure
>that really applies. Remember - the entire industry had their chance to
>counter and elected not to. I don't feel any sympathy for them.
Counter what?
>> Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
>> us now, thanks to SS.
>
>Well - welcome to the world of ignorant people who are willing to be
>protected from themselves. It's your neighbors that brought this on - not
>any manufacturer.
It's unethical speaking weasels who prey on the sheeple who brought
this on.
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:34:17 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 10:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
>>>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>>>>>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>>>>>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>>>>>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>>>>>
>>>>> What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
>>>>> your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
>>>>> throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
>>>> directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
>>>> that may or may not "force" that saw on us.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop.
>>
>> True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
>> way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
>> much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
>> chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology. And for
>> them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
>> with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
>> it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
>
>Pot, Black, Larry
>
>If they hadn't wanted so much money one or more of the manufacturers
>would have jumped at the chance to offer the first saw equipped with the
>technology. Did you just make that up? Did you assume that? Did a
>manufacturer actually say that???
I got that from the text of an early story on this whole ugly episode.
They complained about the fees.
>IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
>but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
>issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
>thousands.
Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.
>Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
>the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
>is in today.
<g>
>Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that pissed a few people off?
>Absoluteness! It pisses me off that the other manufacturers did not
>want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
>over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
>Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
>had their chance and watched it go by.
Did you just make that up? <g> See if you can prove that the mfgrs
didn't want us to see this happen.
See if you can learn the truth behind the rejections, eh? I'll bet
that you aren't so proud of your Gassy friend after that. </guess>
>>> And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
>>> technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
>>> are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
>>
>> For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
>> attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
>> to what our United States Gov't means to me.
>Apply that to your seat belts and unleaded gas.
The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>>> I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>>> regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>>> saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>>> to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
>>
>> A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
>> That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
>
>Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
>was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
>spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
>expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
>take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
>things being relative..
I paid $119 for my refurb Ryobi saw. A $300 option would have put it
up to about $600 retail. Lots of people buy the cheap 10" saws, Leon.
Not everyone can afford $4k for a SS or Unisaw. Check your reference
levels.
>>> We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
>>> have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
>>> buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
>>> homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
>>> sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
>>> power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.
>>>
>>> This is no different.
>>
>> Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
>> us now, thanks to SS.
>
>None that "you" know of, do some research.
Do you know of specific regs back then? If so, let me know. There
weren't many. The nanny state came up way later. We grew up in it.
>Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?
I guarantee he wasn't ruining Corvairs or contractor lives in the
'40s.
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On 4/14/2012 1:42 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Who cares about the nickel test. Just some stupid things the magazines
> care about.
If your saw cannot pass the nickel test it can vibrate the blade. If
the blade vibrates it's cut will not be as smooth as it would be with
less vibration.
That said, you may be perfectly fine with the results of your cuts
passing the nickel test or not.
Where the nickel test really does not matter is during start up and shut
down, basically when you are not cutting wood.
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:46:10 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Why don't you get a contractors saw, and build a bench to whatever
>>height you want? I think even SS sells a contractors saw, don't they?
>
> That is what I use know. I cut about three inches off each leg. I
> added an Excalibur saw guide to it and bought a decent miter guide to
> it. But in the end, it just isn't a cabinet saw.
>
> I'm after a most elusive concept ~ a cabinet saw that will pass the
> nickel test.
You aroused my curiosity.... I just went and looked at the cabinet
construction on my 3 HP Jet XActa saw. It appears to me that it would not be
very difficult to remove the "curb" part of the base with a thin cut-off
wheel and then slide the base up on the sides and weld it in a new
position--Jet has, or did have, white paint available. The dust collection
outlet and interior dust pan appear to be high enough to remove 3 or more
inches from the bottom of the cabinet without modifying those components.
I'd imagine that a skilled auto body repairman could do it as well as others
with sheet metal fabrication skills.
Their Deluxe XActa saw would present additional problems due to the lower
drawer and other do-dads they added. However, loosing the lower drawer would
be an option!
Modifying either would not change the mechanicals....
This may be worth exploring so you can get yourself a cabinet saw...??
John
.
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:46:10 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>Why don't you get a contractors saw, and build a bench to whatever
>height you want? I think even SS sells a contractors saw, don't they?
That is what I use know. I cut about three inches off each leg. I
added an Excalibur saw guide to it and bought a decent miter guide to
it. But in the end, it just isn't a cabinet saw.
I'm after a most elusive concept ~ a cabinet saw that will pass the
nickel test.
Who cares about the nickel test. Just some stupid things the magazines
care about.
The real reason for wanting a cab saw (which I don't have, I have a
contractor saw) is for perfect cuts when the blade is tilted. Most
contractor saws can't do it. I have tried the tricks to get my delta
tuned so it works, even loosening the motor rods and getting them lined
up using the plate trick... Still sucks... Nickels on edge is BS.
On 4/14/2012 1:19 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:46:10 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Why don't you get a contractors saw, and build a bench to whatever
>> height you want? I think even SS sells a contractors saw, don't they?
>
> That is what I use know. I cut about three inches off each leg. I
> added an Excalibur saw guide to it and bought a decent miter guide to
> it. But in the end, it just isn't a cabinet saw.
>
> I'm after a most elusive concept ~ a cabinet saw that will pass the
> nickel test.
On 4/14/2012 1:19 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:46:10 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Why don't you get a contractors saw, and build a bench to whatever
>> height you want? I think even SS sells a contractors saw, don't they?
>
> That is what I use know. I cut about three inches off each leg. I
> added an Excalibur saw guide to it and bought a decent miter guide to
> it. But in the end, it just isn't a cabinet saw.
>
> I'm after a most elusive concept ~ a cabinet saw that will pass the
> nickel test.
My contractors saw passes the nickle test. You have mass, you own the
nickel test. Not sure if my Unisaw would pass it or not. But who
really cares about a meaningless test.
I prefer my contractors saw to a cabinet saw for a bunch of reasons, all
related to building my own cabinet to my specifications, none related to
the nickle test.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 4/12/2012 11:07 PM, CW wrote:
>
> And there was the "I don't want the government telling me that I have to
> wear seat belts." I am a safe driver and not foolish like the other
> drivers. Seat belts are going to cause more accidents because drivers
> will have a false sense of security.
> ===================================================================
> Then there was my FILs excuse. "I never wear seatbelts. In an accident,
> I'd rather be thrown clear". The man had the IQ of a turnip.
>
RTFLMAO,
And I just knew you were going to say that he would simply brace himself
against the steering wheel in the event he crashed into something going
70 mph. ;~)
===============================================================
I guess that was the plan. He never did get to test his theory though. Died
of old age first.
In article
<14062658.1524.1333782531697.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbyj26>,
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems that all
> of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are about 12".
> What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
I'm just thinking that if I edge glue two 6" wide boards together, I'd
still be able to run them through my 12" planer.
Joe
On 4/11/2012 11:34 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Jack<[email protected]> writes:
>> Obama owes $11 Trillion or so, and all he needs to do is
>> print a bunch of Trillion dollar bills and it would be not that much.
>
> For your information, Obama doesn't:
>
> 1) owe anybody anything
Actually he owes us the responsibility of being the president.
> 2) have responsibility for the deficts that were inflicted on the
> country by:
> a) the republican tax reductions without corresponding reductions
> in spending[**]
Actually you can blame "ALL" past administrations, Republican and
Democrat. And if you want to be technical it was during Jimmy Carters
administration that the United States first learned what being in debt
over one trillion dollars was all about.
> b) the trillions spent on two unnecessary wars by a republican
> administration (and unprecedented tax cuts during war!)
And that is a matter of opinion and don't for get Viet Nam, screw the
money spent there, look at the numbers of lost lives during that war.
Thank you LBJ.
> c) congress passes budgets, not the president, so it is the
> idiot republicans who are completely and directly responsible
> for the current deficits (note that if we'd continued with the
> tax rates in effect in 2000, and had no unnecessary and illegal
> wars[*], we'd have zero deficit and no debt today.)
What are you smoking???
Jack wrote:
> On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere
>>> stripped the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had
>>> known someone who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard
>>> from him was how JD was just destroying the quality, and making
>>> them a useless brand.
>>
>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties,
>> perverted since to the ridiculous extreme of
>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>> mentality.
>
> The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
> Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
> the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks
> on a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if
> I can sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do
> it. They can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not
> MBA think but it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go
> out of business.
Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones who are
most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One has to
wonder...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
> The idea of a wider planer is to take glue ups and clean them up. since
> most hobbyist units are only 12-13 inches you work in groups of glue ups.
>
Well... you really shouldn't run a glue up through a planer. The glue will play hell with your blades. No glue, no poaint, just wood ro the blades die. Also, if you have any spring or cup in your glue up the planer might crack the glue joint.
Get a drum sander or wide belt sander if you want to flatten glue ups.
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
>> remember filling up my car for $2.
>
> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup. <gack>
I started driving (legally...) in '69 and was paying just under $0.25 per
gallon in Albany, NY. I remember us all complaining when it hit $0.25 - and
then went all the way up to $0.30. Then of course, came the Oil Embargo and
the unbelievable happened, as gas hit $1.00 per gallon. Shoulda heard us
scream then! Wanna see a grown man cry? Join me the next time I have to
fill up my Silverado.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Jack <[email protected]> writes:
> Obama owes $11 Trillion or so, and all he needs to do is
>print a bunch of Trillion dollar bills and it would be not that much.
For your information, Obama doesn't:
1) owe anybody anything
2) have responsibility for the deficts that were inflicted on the
country by:
a) the republican tax reductions without corresponding reductions
in spending[**]
b) the trillions spent on two unnecessary wars by a republican
administration (and unprecedented tax cuts during war!)
c) congress passes budgets, not the president, so it is the
idiot republicans who are completely and directly responsible
for the current deficits (note that if we'd continued with the
tax rates in effect in 2000, and had no unnecessary and illegal
wars[*], we'd have zero deficit and no debt today.)
scott
[*] bin laden could have been taken out sans war, as was indeed the case.
[**] trickle down theory was dead with the reagan administration, who was
smart enough to raise taxes 7 of his 8 years.
On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 10:29 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Sorry, I don't agree.
>
> You don't agree that you can buy a cheap Ryobi, a middle priced Grizz,
> or a high priced Festool?
>
>> There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
>
> Sure, it is a business decision. Few people want to spend $500 on a shop
> vac, lots spend 80 bucks on a shop vac. All are available to everyone,
> at least in the USA where "MBAthink" reigns.
>
>> Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
>> they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
>> away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
>> place, is now no longer to be found. Good???
>
> You could always buy quality and cheap products, at least in my lifetime.
>
>> maybe for some bottom
>> lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.
>
> I don't think you could have found a 15" planer with a spiral, segmented
> cutter head at anywhere near the price of a Grizz, even if not adjusted
> for government inflation, 40 years ago. You are very wrong about the
> choices.
>
>> We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
>> partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
>> America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
>> third of the pie.
>
> Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
> why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
> for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.
You are so wrong about that. Corp America stifles free thinking and
ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
this. If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are
used to. It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out.
The culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its
about ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.
>
> When "corporate America is forced by government hacks to only sell $3500
> Table saws, then free thinking and ingenuity will be killed, but not by
> corporate America, but Big Government America, AKA, your socialist Big
> Brother.
>
tiredofspam wrote:
> Sorry, I don't agree.
>
> There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
Yes - sometimes. But not all of the time, which is what is implied by "MBA
Think".
> Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
Bullshit. That has happened - but it is by no means the rule. I have
worked in too many environments where the MBA's were not the culprits but
the market dictated similar results.
> they don't add to the choices.
It is not their job to do so. Blame those who should have been responsible
for that.
> Since they are all taking the quality
> away
Bullshit again. That is just pure bullshit. It is so easy to blame MBA's
while we conveniently ignore the consumer desire for throw away, cheap
products...
> and making it cheaper (not less expensive)
That has always been an objective of business
> , what used to be
> common place, is now no longer to be found.
So - just exactly what is it that used to be common place?
> Good??? maybe for some
> bottom lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not
> be stopped.
Nice rhetoric, but what does that mean?
>
> We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
> partly responsible,
Partly? How about "Mostlyh"?. Look how often you hear people here bitching
about price. Sure - they say they'd be willing to pay for quality, but
there is always a reason why that quality is not worth their opening their
pockets. The consumer is a very large part of this equation.
> but the MBA is responsible
Bullshit - this is getting old. Do you really have any experience with
MBA's in a manufacturing environment, besides reading about such things as
GM 20 years ago?
> , and so is corporate
> America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
> third of the pie.
>
But - you emphasize the MBA as the culprit...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Actually there are some 4" benchtop models. Not noteworthy.
On 4/9/2012 2:06 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 4/7/2012 12:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems
>> that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers
>> are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>>
>> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> I don't think you have been looking at "commercial grade" equipment if
> that's all you have seen.
>
> A 6" jointer is about the smallest you can buy.
>
> A 12" planer is also quite small by commercial standards.
>
> Here are a few examples:
>
> http://www.deltamachinery.com/products/jointers
>
> http://www.deltamachinery.com/products/planers
>
> The size depends on the stock you work with and
> the amount of money you have.
>
> The 6" jointer is fine for smaller, shorter stock,
> while the 8" is for wider and longer stock. The 8"
> jointer normally has a MUCH longer table,ex:
> 6" jointer 46"
> 8" jointer 76"
>
> The planers also follow similar patterns.
>
> If you buy s4s lumber, a big jointer is not needed
> but if you buy rough cut, the need is there for the
> jointer and the planer.
>
> The smaller "lunch box" planer(12") is fine for many shops
> and is MUCH cheaper to get into. The next step up is a
> 15" and that's when price makes a real difference. You
> are paying for bigger, much more powerful motors and heavier
> equipment. a standard 15" planer is "about" 340 lbs, while the
> 12" is 76 lbs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
That's not what the guy I knew that worked at Ryobi said. I was also
aware of the Homelite aquisition.
After he told me about the nonsense going on at Ryobi ... he was
eventually laid off. My first hint that it was true was actually in the
Ryobi outdoor line. My gas power trimmer (Ryobi) was not appearing in HD
for a while, and the John Deere stuff now had the replaceable implements
that Ryobi had developed. And the JD heads were compatible to the
Ryobi's. So for a while it definetly seemed like JD was moving in.. but
it appeared only long enough to strip maybe patents and destroy the
companies before moving on.
On 4/9/2012 12:27 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s....
>
> No, don't think so.
>
> Maybe you're thinking of the Homelite homeowner outdoor tools. Deere did
> own Homelite for a while and divested themselves of it (to TTI) but
> afaik never Ryobi.
>
>> Deere & Co acquires Textron Inc-Homelite Division from Textron Inc Aug
>> 29, 1994
>
>
>> TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite Consumer from
>> Deere & Co TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite
>> Consumer from Deere & Co Nov 16, 2001
>
> <http://www.alacrastore.com/mergers-acquisitions/Deere_Company-1004803>
>
> for detailed listing of Deere acquisitions/dispositions from early 80s
> forward.
>
> --
On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
> like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
> they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
> on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.
I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
but IMHO not the best way.
On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>>>> I'm
>>>> under 60 (barely)
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
>>> the late '50s.
>>>
>>> Known as "gas wars".
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
>> filling up my car for $2.
>
> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
to be in 1970`1972.
A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
now about $40k
I guarantee you that if an alternative fuel that we have to purchase
replaces petroleum based products we will be paying more for the same
amount of energy. If this was not true we would have switched decades
ago. Oil is way too plentiful to be expensive, relatively.
If electric cars become mainstream demand will increase and our
electricity rates will surely increase, and not just the amount of extra
usage but for the same reason oil prices increase.
Just wait until some one comes up with a way to measure every breath you
take...
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jack wrote:
>>
>>> High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
>>> already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
>>> twisted like pretzels.
>>
>
>> They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.
Maybe it's a regional thing, but the red oak, maple, and poplar I've
examined in the store, when in a pinch to finish a project, hasn't been very
good given the premimum prices. Cupped and crocked to various degrees and
some twisted. Short of taking it down a 1/16-1/8" in thickness to straighten
it out it wouldn't be useable for furniture... trim/casing where you are
nailing it down yes, furniture no. It might have been "perfect" leaving the
mill but after experiencing the environment it isn't.
>>> All the ply I got from HD twisted
>>> like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
>>> it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.
>>
>
> I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were you.
> It seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it that this
> wood does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you get it home?
> The stores are not terribly climate controlled so whatever you see on the
> floor is pretty much what you will have when you get it home. Pretzels?
I find that you have to let the moisture equalize on both sides of the
sheets for a few days before they come close to straight and flat. Even in
the store the top sheet or two is often not flat due to the moisture
difference across sides. The last couple sheets of cabinet grade ply I
grabbed at HD took about a week to settle down in my "winter dry" shop.
Before they settled down it would have been very difficult to work with as
the sheets wouldn't lay flat on the table saw, shaper, or any other surface.
The source doesn't seem to matter, it's more an issue of pulling sheets from
standard shipping units that trap moisture and gases on one hand and keep
moisture out on the other.
John
Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 11:34 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Jack<[email protected]> writes:
>>> Obama owes $11 Trillion or so, and all he needs to do is
>>> print a bunch of Trillion dollar bills and it would be not that
>>> much.
>>
>> For your information, Obama doesn't:
>>
>> 1) owe anybody anything
>
> Actually he owes us the responsibility of being the president.
Preach it brother! Where does this stupid notion come from that he owes us
nothing? Patently stupid!
>
>
>> 2) have responsibility for the deficts that were inflicted on the
>> country by:
>> a) the republican tax reductions without corresponding
>> reductions in spending[**]
>
> Actually you can blame "ALL" past administrations, Republican and
> Democrat. And if you want to be technical it was during Jimmy Carters
> administration that the United States first learned what being in debt
> over one trillion dollars was all about.
Don't confuse the discussion with facts now Leon...
>
>
>> b) the trillions spent on two unnecessary wars by a republican
>> administration (and unprecedented tax cuts during war!)
>
> And that is a matter of opinion and don't for get Viet Nam, screw the
> money spent there, look at the numbers of lost lives during that war.
> Thank you LBJ.
Thank you.
>
>> c) congress passes budgets, not the president, so it is the
>> idiot republicans who are completely and directly
>> responsible for the current deficits (note that if we'd
>> continued with the tax rates in effect in 2000, and had no
>> unnecessary and illegal wars[*], we'd have zero deficit and
>> no debt today.)
>
> What are you smoking???
Hope weed.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 12:33 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
>> already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
>> twisted like pretzels.
>
I have bought hardwood from Home Depot and I worked their for 4 1/2 years.
In all of my experiences, I never saw a piece of hardwood twisted like a
pretzel. I never even saw a truly bad piece of hardwood. I wonder why you
feel the need to "clean up" a piece of S4S in the first place? I have to
ask if the poster of this statement has really ever seen that - or how many
times? Did you find one piece that was junk? I find it hard to believe
that you have consistently found that to be the case. This stuff is
purchased at the corporate contract level and each store receives pretty
much the same stuff, so it is not likely that any one store is selling some
inferior product. This statement receives my esteemed Bullshit award.
> They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.
Correct.
>> All the ply I got from HD twisted
>> like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
>> it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.
>
I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were you. It
seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it that this wood
does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you get it home? The
stores are not terribly climate controlled so whatever you see on the floor
is pretty much what you will have when you get it home. Pretzels?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
> Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.
>
> And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and
> ply.
>
> Even Veneer is outrageous in price and sometimes quality.
>
> But it is the cards we are dealt. When you win the lottery and get
> that home, give me a call, I'll take care of that forrest for you.
> You'll be too rich to want to play with wood.
>
> 8>)
>
> Happy Easter.
>
I'm giving up on ply. At least on the nicer face veneers that they
charge more for. I figure for only a little more I can cut my own
veneers from thick stock and get not only something I can sand, but a
material where tear out is much less likely.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
The wider planer lets you shave the thickness of larger panels. Note
that it does not neccessarily "flatten" panels. If the panel goes in
cupped/bowed, it will come out cupped/bowed. The 13" benchtop planer is
common for the average hobbyist woodworker (like myself) who cannot (or
doesn't need to) spend the money on larger stand-alone machines.
Though if cost isn't a consideration, bigger is better. :)
The Performax sanders are another way to surface a large panels though I
haven't actually seen one in action.
On 04/07/2012 02:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
>
> Thanks!
Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
*snip*
> The last sheet of ply I bought from HD was super good. I was looking
> for some junk 3/4" ply for the bottom of my lumber rack. They had junk
> at $18 a sheet, but they also had a big stack of good stuff on sale for
> $23. One look and I knew $5 more was well worth it. I felt guilty
> using that quality of wood for the bottom of my lumber rack, but forced
> myself to do it:-) They didn't have of that again, that I saw.
>
*snip*
Every once in a while they'll buy some good plywood and sell it for an
excellent price. It's worth a look when you're in the store. If your HD
has a cull cart, that's worth a look as well. (Just don't pick over the
cart at my local store until I've had a chance! :-))
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 4/13/2012 9:52 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>> LOL. My wife insisted, it is a tall step for her and those that ride in
>> the back.
>
> Why didn't you get the electric automatic steps for it? Only $1,200
> and none of the ugliness while driving. http://tinyurl.com/7nfmo8n
Dealer did not offer. And the truck came off of the transport with the
running boards.
>
>
>> I think I have opened the sliding back glass once to see how it worked.
>
> I used it all the time in my F150, and it saved my neck once when an
> idiot housewife slammed into my dock bumper at 65mph on the freeway
> when the rest of us had slowed to 35 for rush hour traffic.
>
> It's too hard to reach while driving in the Tundra, so I don't often
> use it.
>
>
>> I guess I have the alarm, too, and mats,
>>> which were carefully recalled and found not to be a problem. Oh, one
>>> other change was a stacked CD player: 6 instead of 1.
>>
>> I think they all came with some type of integrated alarm, they added the
>> glass break sensor, a little doo dad on the center dash next to the MP3
>> jack.
>
> Yeah, little red blinkin' light.
No, the blinking light is up at the clock, my thing looks like a small
microphone, it is black and has several small holes in it.
>
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:58:22 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 11:32 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:09:46 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/11/2012 4:50 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>> No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
>>>> bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
>>>> battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
>>>> windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)
>>>
>>>
>>> Scratching head.... was that sticker??? Probably not, I paid exactly
>>> $28k drive out but the truck stickered for $34K+
>>
>> No sticker o mine. I ordered it from the factory.
>
>Well there was a sticker, that is law but they do not have to attach it
>unless it goes on the lot for to be sold. The vehicles I have ordered
>all had stickers that were given to me when I gave them a check.
I didn't know that.
>Then, for the
>> second time in my life, the dealer bent me over. The two times in my
>> life when I ordered new vehicles from the factory have been
>> nightmares. Ford's dealer submitted two orders under the same number,
>> so when my 6 weeks was up, they said "Oops, your truck was never
>> built." After ordering my Toyota, the dealer came back and said that
>> the factory wasn't building any more '07s, so they found one close to
>> what I ordered and I got that.
>
>Buying an 07 in Dec of 07, yeah I imagine there we no more 07's being
>built any more. I am suprised that the 08's were not already in
>production. I bought my 07 in the middle of July and that was near the
>end of the build year.
I specifically didn't want an '08 due to the style changes.
> Gold paint (which I like better than
>> the white I'd ordered) and the towing package were the only two
>> changes. Oh, and they dropped the price by another grand, totaling $3k
>> off the retail. It was one of only 3 standard cabs with the tan
>> interior left available in the USA at the time, too.
>
>I originally ordered silver but I really like the charcoal grey.
In the Texas sunshine? Oy vey!
>I got about the same deal on mine as the one I originally ordered with
>the V6 because I was ready to close the deal and they would not have to
>order another unit. Read that as a bird in the hand is worth two in the
>bush.
>
>>
>>
>>> But I got,,... ;~) 5.7 V* and honestly getting just under 17 mpg on
>>> average in town driving. 6 auto speed trans, 4 door, SR5, running
>>> boards, bed protector, towing package, AC and pwr doors windows, Stipe,
>>> tinted front windows, Toyota alarm with glass break, mats, sliding back
>>> glass, Alloy wheels, tool box under back seat, extra sound deadening.
>>
>> Running boards, y'old GOAT?
>
>LOL. My wife insisted, it is a tall step for her and those that ride in
>the back.
Why didn't you get the electric automatic steps for it? Only $1,200
and none of the ugliness while driving. http://tinyurl.com/7nfmo8n
>I think I have opened the sliding back glass once to see how it worked.
I used it all the time in my F150, and it saved my neck once when an
idiot housewife slammed into my dock bumper at 65mph on the freeway
when the rest of us had slowed to 35 for rush hour traffic.
It's too hard to reach while driving in the Tundra, so I don't often
use it.
> I guess I have the alarm, too, and mats,
>> which were carefully recalled and found not to be a problem. Oh, one
>> other change was a stacked CD player: 6 instead of 1.
>
>I think they all came with some type of integrated alarm, they added the
>glass break sensor, a little doo dad on the center dash next to the MP3
>jack.
Yeah, little red blinkin' light.
>I really really like the tool box under the back seat, I keep jumper
>cables, tie downs, etc under there.
I like the amount of tools I can get in the back when there's no seat
in the way.
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:
>
> I've seen multitudes of political failures in organizations...
> competing agendas and infighting that leads to executives being
> walked out. It doesn't mean the victor was right or better, it just
> means they won the political battle.
------------------------------------
Oh the joys of field sales.
Stay in the field, make budget, stay out of office politics, enjoy
life.
Lew
Swingman wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 1:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> To put all profit oriented
>> thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted.
>
> And who do you know who did that? Or are you just following Jack's
> erroneous assumption instead of reading for yourself?
>
> (Hint: You might want to check out the _context_ of my first reply)
Maybe just my reaction but it seems that the phrase MBA-think has sort of
taken over here as the catch-all phrase. It's not so much that anyone
person did so, as it is the preponderance of the use of that term as the
blame for everything.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
tiredofspam wrote:
>
> You are so wrong about that. Corp America stifles free thinking and
> ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
> bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
> this. If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
> way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are
> used to. It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out.
> The culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its
> about ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.
>
You either work in the wrong place, or you chose the wrong way to deliver
your message. I've been a rebel in my career for way to long to accept
anyone saying that corporate america does not allow for input. I've just
turned over way too many wagons in my career to listen to that crap.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
tiredofspam wrote:
> When I mean cheaper, I didn't mean for less expense. I meant garbage
> cheaper. There is the perception that we can sell you junk and you
> will like it.
>
> Notice how many ways groceries are sold these days. Making a bigger
> package and putting less weight in. That's MBA think. Unfortunately
> many consumers just fall for it.
>
Too many people who do not understand how things work simply throw out the
phrase "MBA think". That term has lost any real meaning. Not every
corporate move is a reflection of General Motors...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Sorry, I don't agree.
>>
>> There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
>> Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
>> they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
>> away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
>> place, is now no longer to be found. Good??? maybe for some bottom
>> lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.
>>
>> We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
>> partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
>> America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
>> third of the pie.
>
> As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in the
> big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat" (take
> chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the likes of
> Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not just the MBA
> "save a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation) structure--which
> is to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire
> nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the boat)".
There are also issues of "the garbage can model of problem solving" where
solutions that worked in the past are pulled out of the "garbage can" and
applied again. Net result is sometimes they will work again but it may be
just as likely mistakes are made...
Organizations don't learn well and they loose a lot of talent as a result as
people give up and move on...
Group Think is a huge issue too... organizations often think they are better
than others, smarter than the market, etc. As a result they miss threats and
opportunities.
"Johnny Appleseed" consultants are a problem too. They take their solutions
and plant them in a multitude of organizations. I've been unimpressed with
the majority of those I've encountered in that they typically don't bring
any knowledge with them that the organization doesn't already possess.
However, politically they may be able to effect change in ways that have not
been allowed to employees. For example management may need a nameless
somebody to blame, or the consultants come in under "halo affect," i.e.,
because they are consultants they must be smart. I recall one period of
time where we were fond of saying to consultants that "Yellow Badges mean
you're smart. " We don't think they ever figured out that all non-employee
contractors wore yellow badges... regardless of their role.
Another issue that cannot be ignored is that executives move around and
apply their "solutions" to multiple organizations.... both failures and
successes. I've experienced that several times (industries tend to be
incestuous when it comes to the professional and upper management levels).
I've seen multitudes of political failures in organizations... competing
agendas and infighting that leads to executives being walked out. It doesn't
mean the victor was right or better, it just means they won the political
battle.
Much of what I've read here about tools seems to be more along the lines of
price point decisions and value engineering decisions. The former are
decisions about what market you want to sell in....e.g., casual
homeowner/woodworker, serious homeowner/woodworker, professional woodworker,
manufacturing facilities. Within a price point/market there are
expectations... Delta used to sell into all those markets... now? Good
question given the sale/refocus. The later count on everything going right,
i.e., the design is right, the materials are really to spec, the machines
are set up correctly, the workers are given the right incentives, training,
authority, and responsibility to do the job well. A well known example is
"1/2" plywood" that measures 15/32" or 7/16" that meets 1/2" plywood
"performance standards?" A rhetorical question: Do we care if it's a 1/2"
thick or that it meets "1/2" plywood performance standards?
Anyhow.... I've been reading and taking it all in.... no real answers. I
know successful, insightful, and brilliant people who have no formal
education beyond high school (in one case not even that) who started and
grew businesses and made upper middle class/upper class incomes. I also know
people with masters degrees who are idiots in "the real world" (look up
idiot in the dictionary and a photo of one person in particular is there as
an example). Those with doctoral degrees (PhD, MD, JD, DO, OD, etc.) whom I
know are all over the map... some don't function well with tangibles, some
do. Some are brilliant in their field of study and useless outside of it...
It takes all kinds and a strong argument could be made that performance is a
random variable and leadership has little to do with it (look at politics
for easy examples!). I'd like to think, however, that leadership has at
least some impact. I recently stumbled across a TV show "Undercover Boss"
and I cannot help but think those people are successful and will continue to
be successful because they are relatively humble and understand they may not
know everything.... the antithesis of many with whom I've worked.
Enough of this! LOL
John
On 4/11/2012 8:14 AM, Han wrote:
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 7:36 AM, Han wrote:
>>
>>> While the current high prices in the US are an aberration, inflation has
>>> made 1 USD in 1970 worth over $6 in 2012.
>>
>>
>> Shhhhhhh ... the congresscritters have insured that fuel and food are
>> not indexed in inflation.
>>
>> That has to be one of the more egregious actions pulled on the sheeple,
>> but they don't seem to give it a thought.
>
> Where inthe job description of the sheeple does it say anything about
> thinking? As the janitor told me, common sense is a misnomer, it isn't
> common at all.
>
And since when does common sense make a person anywhere near smart??? LOL
Common sense is common, it is just that if you don't at least have
common sense you are an idiot.
On 4/11/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:41:39 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>> under 60 (barely)
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
>>>>> the late '50s.
>>>>>
>>>>> Known as "gas wars".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
>>>> filling up my car for $2.
>>>
>>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>>
>> So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
>> to be in 1970`1972.
>> A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
>> now about $40k
>
> I found an exceedingly good value in my $26k Toyota Tundra.
And that is about what I paid but I was talking sticker price then and
now. My middle of the road model snickered for $34k and I am pretty
sure yours snickered for considerably more also.
>
>
>> I guarantee you that if an alternative fuel that we have to purchase
>> replaces petroleum based products we will be paying more for the same
>> amount of energy. If this was not true we would have switched decades
>> ago. Oil is way too plentiful to be expensive, relatively.
>
> Oh, absolutely, the alt fuels will be more expensive. The have gov't
> built into them via subsidies. Subsidies which should not be there.
> That's how corn-produced ethanol got its stranglehold on us. Sheeit!
Even if the government was not involved, LOL, the price would would
still be high. Energy is a unique product and is priced accordingly,
the demand is high and always will be and therefore will be considered
expensive because great numbers one will always be willing to pay the price.
>
>> If electric cars become mainstream demand will increase and our
>> electricity rates will surely increase, and not just the amount of extra
>> usage but for the same reason oil prices increase.
>
> And watch the oil companies rush to fracking the entire mainland US,
> ruining all groundwater in the process, to meet the new demands on
> electricity. I believe that over half of Americans could put good use
> to an electric car.
>
>
>> Just wait until some one comes up with a way to measure every breath you
>> take...
>
> It'll happen in space before it does here, I reckon. 'Course, I'm
> still waiting for The Cull to happen. Once the sheeple stampede,
> gov't will start taking a back seat. We're in for scary times ahead.
> The question will be: From whom? Gov't or the people?
>
> --
> Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
> wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
> -- Henry George
Sorry, I don't agree.
There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
place, is now no longer to be found. Good??? maybe for some bottom
lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.
We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.
On 4/10/2012 10:14 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>
>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>> mentality.
>
> The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
> Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
> the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
> a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
> sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
> can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
> it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.
>
> I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
> up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.
>
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:10:15 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
>it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the
>same or better than what I got in 1978.
That's garbage Jack and you know it. The cheap wood in 1978 was
essentially straight grained and mostly knot free. The cheap crap
you're comparing to these days is full of knots and you can't find
straight grain if your life depended on it. *That's* what I mean when
I mention quality.
And, your example of Home Depot also falls short. Board width has
diminished at HD. Doesn't matter how much you're willing to pay for
it. If you wanted to make a table out of hardwood with HD wood, you'd
be joining a larger number of pieces of hard wood. I can remember 8"
hard wood availability at HD. You can't find it now because it costs
too damned much and isn't a customer demanded product because of that
high cost.
I used to buy hard wood oak veneered plywood at Home Depot. I stopped
doing that four or five years ago because I realized the veneered
plywood they were stocking had a thinner veneered oak layer on it. So
thin in fact, that you have to be extra careful you don't sand through
it. It effect, it's cheap and not worth the money being asked for it.
Slice it up anyway you want, HD exists on the cheap end of the
spectrum and has always done so. Just, that they do it even more now.
Leon wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 4:31 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge,
>> which I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their
>> stuff (since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not
>> been able to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.
>
>
> Laying flat on a solid flat surface is best. HD tends to balance
> plywood on two forks, laying sorta flat.
I think it's four, but I'm not sure. I know it's four when it's up in the
air, but I can't remember what it is when it's on the floor.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/11/2012 12:39 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 8:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>>>>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>>>>
>>>> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>>>> posterity.
>>>
>>> No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
>>> fault of "MBAthink"
>>>
>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>
>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>
> Yes, the MBAthinkers at Festool have a clear view of Texans and their
> wallets, just as the MBAthinkers at Ryobi have a clear view of the moths
> in Larry's.
>
Did you graduate?
On 4/7/2012 9:54 PM, Pete S wrote:
> I think there are a lot of people who buy their lumber S2S or better at
> a store and then work with those boards. Assuming that you select only
> the good straight stock before you plunk down the big bucks, you already
> have "jointed" and planed stock.
Where are you getting s2s that has been jointed??? Granted you did
mention "or better" but you need to go up to s3s to get one edge
jointed. between s2s and s3s is s2s1e which is typically flat and
parallel on both faces and one edge is ripped straight which still does
not give you a glue edge.
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 12:24:04 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/9/2012 11:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>>
>>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>>> mentality.
>>
>> I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
>> luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
>> that's common to pricy tools, too.
>>
>> I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
>> prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book.<g>
>
>You reallllly don't believe that do you???
I most certainly do. I've stalled it when a piece of ply slipped as I
fed it through. It didn't have the guts to kick it back. On smaller
items, though, I'd be less cavalier. ;)
>> I recently bought the large kit for less than an equivalent drill
>> motor from the top brands. $125 got me a drill motor, recip saw, circ
>> saw, flashlight, two batteries, charger, and nylon kit bag to carry
>> them in. The 18v circ saw outlasts my old 14.4v saw by a 3:1 margin,
>> but is still too short. That's the only negative thing I can say about
>> them. The drill motors have dual bubble levels on them, so you can
>> drill precisely vertically or horizontally. It's a GREAT idea, one
>> which I don't see on other brands. http://tinyurl.com/7am9bla
>>
>> I think I first started buying Ryobis in 1999, though. Perhaps I
>> waited out the JD trashing and got good tools.
>
>Actually the good Ryobi tools were built in the 80's, IMHO about
>equivalent to Makita back then and mostly sold by tool dealers.
OK.
--
Live Simply. Speak Kindly. Care Deeply. Love Generously.
-- anon
On 4/7/2012 3:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
>
> Thanks!
The easiest solution is to buy a combination jointer/planer so that their
widths will always match. The equipment is usually cheaper than two
separate machines since the frame, motor, drive, and cutter head are shared
between functions. The downside is that there is a changeover time to go
between functions but if you streamline your workflow the overhead is
minimized. I've been using a Robland 12" combination for 13 years now and
have no problems (although there have been times when a 16" or 18" machine
would have been good to have - never satisfied I guess).
Leon wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves
>> quickly, like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it
>> upright when they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as
>> quickly). Its tougher on the edges. But it also allows you to go in
>> an look through the ply.
>
>
> I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
> lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
> but IMHO not the best way.
Thank you Leon! I haven't either, but I didn't want to advertise... But...
I figure if a guy with Festools can admit that, then so can I! Then again,
I have never experienced a piece of wood twisting on me (that wasn't already
twisted in the store...), in the simple time to get it home and into my
shop. Maybe I just got lucky.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill wrote:
>
> As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in
> the big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat"
> (take chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the
> likes of Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not
> just the MBA "save a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation)
> structure--which is to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my
> bonuses, retire nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the
> boat)".
In some industries, that is probably quite true, and in others it would be
the kiss of death. The High Tech sector in particular, is not predominately
that way. The pace of change and the competition force a much more dynamic
lifestyle than that. VP's riding out retirement often do not make it that
far in those arenas. Especially if they are in the product chain (as
opposed to back office guys).
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 5:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs
>>> in the big corporations don't have much incentive to
>>> "rock-the-boat" (take chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM
>>> especially. But the likes of Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point
>>> is that it's not just the MBA "save a dime" mentality, but the
>>> corporate (compensation) structure--which is to blame. It's
>>> something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire nicely, and get
>>> outta here (without rocking the boat)".
>>
>> That's only part of it, but not the worst part.
>>
>> That worst part is the mentality that the recipient of an MBA is
>> somehow suddenly endowed with the knowledge to the point of needing
>> to know nothing about a product to run the company making the
>> product; the mentality that "acquisition" is the all encompassing
>> solution to innovation; the part that fires the experience
>> responsible for the very innovation and quality that made the
>> company a worthwhile acquisition in the first to place pursue
>> mediocrity in worshiping the bottom line; the mentality that
>> insulates management from consumers; the idea that appearance, and
>> not substance, is the only quality necessary ...
>
>
> Nicely stated.
I should have responded to Karl, but I got distracted by other things. My
only comment is that I have met and worked with many - many MBA's who do not
fit this cookie cutter mold of what's wrong with MBA's. I do agree with
Karl that this can indeed be a problem and that in fact - it has pretty much
proven itself to be an existent problem - but I disagree with the
generalization of MBA's. I have dealt with far too many C-Level executives
who were MBA's, and who exhibited too many contrary atributes to accept this
as a broad brush statement. The problem in a forum like this is that too
many people jump on bandwagons to ostrasize things that they really have
little experience with. This thread has a certain nature of "let's bash the
MBA". Maybe that comes from those who resent the knowledge of those who
have invested in that degree, while they themselves, did not.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:23:53 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't lie, ever, period. The lumber at my HD is as good or better
>than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's. The prices I
>looked up, I didn't guess. I guess you need to take my word on the
>quality, but trust me, I have no reason to lie, and wouldn't if I did.
And you're calling me a lying sack of shit? Over and over, you seem to
be the one arguing one side of the fence while everybody else is on
the other side. Why is that? I can only suppose it's a desperate need
for attention. Why else would you be right and everybody else be
wrong?
On 4/10/2012 3:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 1:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> To put all profit oriented
>>> thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted.
>>
>> And who do you know who did that? Or are you just following Jack's
>> erroneous assumption instead of reading for yourself?
>>
>> (Hint: You might want to check out the _context_ of my first reply)
>
> Maybe just my reaction but it seems that the phrase MBA-think has sort of
> taken over here as the catch-all phrase. It's not so much that anyone
> person did so, as it is the preponderance of the use of that term as the
> blame for everything.
IIRC, the discussion was specifically about companies, once known for
quality products, to which the term arguably applies: starting with
Ryobi, but equally applicable to The Rockwell's, The Delta's, The
Stanley's, The Porter Cables, The Craftsman tools, et al.
ALL to whom the following applies:
~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
and quality engineering.
~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
_price point engineering_ .
~ Manufacturing same product as cheaply as possible by use of cheap
materials, and low cost, unskilled labor.
~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising to the ignorant
unsuspecting by relying solely upon the previous reputation of the brand
for a quality which no longer exists, and for whatever the market will bear.
Jack either missed the point ... any argument that the above has NOT
happened to each of the listed companies, plus many more, is denying
reality ... or Jack is in denial.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/9/2012 2:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 12:24:04 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/9/2012 11:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>>>
>>>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>>>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>>>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>>>> mentality.
>>>
>>> I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
>>> luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
>>> that's common to pricy tools, too.
>>>
>>> I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
>>> prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book.<g>
>>
>> You reallllly don't believe that do you???
>
> I most certainly do. I've stalled it when a piece of ply slipped as I
> fed it through. It didn't have the guts to kick it back. On smaller
> items, though, I'd be less cavalier. ;)
You apparently don't know what kick back is. I have had kick back with
1 hp saws that stalled easily. Stalling a blade is not anywhere near
kick back.
On 4/11/2012 3:07 PM, Han wrote:
> I'm sorry you were a patient for 40 years (I hope you were at least an
> outpatient, not actually in a bed in the VA for all that time).
LOL I think the terminology is "numbers", not patients. The loudspeaker
in each clinic is continually bellowing out: "Now serving Numbers 756,
757, 758, ...), which means you get to proceed to another window, and
take another number. ;)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/10/2012 4:31 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
> I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff
> (since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not been able
> to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.
Laying flat on a solid flat surface is best. HD tends to balance
plywood on two forks, laying sorta flat.
On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Larry W" wrote:
>
>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>> I'm
>> under 60 (barely)
> ------------------------------------
> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
> the late '50s.
>
> Known as "gas wars".
>
>
> Lew
>
>
>
19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
filling up my car for $2.
Not...
Jointers come in 4,6,8,and 12 inch models. The most common hobbiest is
the 6" If you can afford it 8" is better.
I bought mine at an estate sale, so I saved a bunch. You use it for
more than edging. You face joint one face, before sending it to the
planer. The jointer will flatten one face, the planer will make the
other face parallel to that flattened face.
The idea of a wider planer is to take glue ups and clean them up. since
most hobbyist units are only 12-13 inches you work in groups of glue ups.
On 4/7/2012 6:44 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems
>> that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the
>> planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as
>> large?
>
> So that you can get a board of reasonable width to a given thickness and
> still have the sides parallel. You can skinny one down on a joiner but the
> sides are unlikely to wind up parallel.
>
> Joiners are best for getting a straight *edge*; consequently, width of the
> machine is of less importance. You can get wide joiners
> too...12"...16""...all you have to do is spring for the big bucks.
>
On 4/11/2012 7:57 AM, Han wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime,
>>>>>> and I'm
>>>>>> under 60 (barely)
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit
>>>>> in the late '50s.
>>>>>
>>>>> Known as "gas wars".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
>>>> remember filling up my car for $2.
>>>
>>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>>
>> So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
>> to be in 1970`1972.
>> A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
>> now about $40k
>>
>> I guarantee you that if an alternative fuel that we have to purchase
>> replaces petroleum based products we will be paying more for the same
>> amount of energy. If this was not true we would have switched decades
>> ago. Oil is way too plentiful to be expensive, relatively.
>>
>> If electric cars become mainstream demand will increase and our
>> electricity rates will surely increase, and not just the amount of
>> extra usage but for the same reason oil prices increase.
>>
>> Just wait until some one comes up with a way to measure every breath
>> you take...
>
> That reasoning leaves out the increased efficiency in using energy.
Correct! and a rule of thumb today is that a typical automobile can be
powered on 1/4 the energy using electricity as when using gasoline.
But we don't create energy as individuals and we have to buy it from
somewhere. Every one uses energy and has to have it. Even those that
are supposedly "off the grid" depend on the outside world to provide
what they don't produce.
> Right now, natural gas is even cheaper than coal, and much more friendly
> for the environment. That may not last forever, but seems likely for at
> least a number of years. Electric propulsion for vehicles is alo much
> more efficient than gasoline, but it suffers from the big HUGE problem of
> storage. You can't really store electricity very easily. Li batteries
> were a great leap forward, but we need at least another 10-fold greater
> storage capability per unit mass, plus the ability to quickly recharge.
> Not very easy to accomplish.
The big problem with alternative energy is that individuals will never
be able to produce what they use and will always have to buy energy from
some one. Energy is what makes the world work and we as a society will
always pay a high price for it over the long term.
I don't know what market you are in, but here in NJ the HD hardwood is
awful. Bowed, wany... Do we get the awful shit. Probably.
Maybe in your market you are getting better stuff. But here when I say
pretzel, I mean it's too bent, or twisted to use. And for the price you
pay (linear foot), you have to do too much work to it. So why would I
need to cleanup a s4s piece. Well if it were straight and not twisted I
wouldn't have to. I am not impressed with their wood.
As far as the ply. I had bought 7 sheets of maple cab ply a few years
ago , when I got it home it just bowed. I had only walked it down the
stairs and was amazed at how it bowed. I have not been able to
straighten it out. I should have returned it. I recently bought cab
grade ply and it too curled.
I have a rack for ply, and it keeps it straight up, and the rack is
true. But I have to get it to the rack.. and in both cases it curled
before I made it to the rack. Not too mention the major voids in the cab
ply that I got. Or major fills that I didn't notice. Whatever that vinyl
like fill is that they use.
On 4/10/2012 2:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 12:33 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>>
>>> High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
>>> already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
>>> twisted like pretzels.
>>
>
> I have bought hardwood from Home Depot and I worked their for 4 1/2 years.
> In all of my experiences, I never saw a piece of hardwood twisted like a
> pretzel. I never even saw a truly bad piece of hardwood. I wonder why you
> feel the need to "clean up" a piece of S4S in the first place? I have to
> ask if the poster of this statement has really ever seen that - or how many
> times? Did you find one piece that was junk? I find it hard to believe
> that you have consistently found that to be the case. This stuff is
> purchased at the corporate contract level and each store receives pretty
> much the same stuff, so it is not likely that any one store is selling some
> inferior product. This statement receives my esteemed Bullshit award.
>
>
>> They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.
>
> Correct.
>
>
>>> All the ply I got from HD twisted
>>> like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
>>> it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.
>>
>
> I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were you. It
> seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it that this wood
> does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you get it home? The
> stores are not terribly climate controlled so whatever you see on the floor
> is pretty much what you will have when you get it home. Pretzels?
>
>
>
That I always do, for 51cents a piece in the cull cart I will get the
bargain.
On 4/10/2012 2:27 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Jack<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>> The last sheet of ply I bought from HD was super good. I was looking
>> for some junk 3/4" ply for the bottom of my lumber rack. They had junk
>> at $18 a sheet, but they also had a big stack of good stuff on sale for
>> $23. One look and I knew $5 more was well worth it. I felt guilty
>> using that quality of wood for the bottom of my lumber rack, but forced
>> myself to do it:-) They didn't have of that again, that I saw.
>>
>
> *snip*
>
> Every once in a while they'll buy some good plywood and sell it for an
> excellent price. It's worth a look when you're in the store. If your HD
> has a cull cart, that's worth a look as well. (Just don't pick over the
> cart at my local store until I've had a chance! :-))
>
> Puckdropper
Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff
(since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not been able
to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.
On 4/10/2012 3:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>> High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
>>>> already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
>>>> twisted like pretzels.
>>>
>>
>>> They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.
>
> Maybe it's a regional thing, but the red oak, maple, and poplar I've
> examined in the store, when in a pinch to finish a project, hasn't been
> very good given the premimum prices. Cupped and crocked to various
> degrees and some twisted. Short of taking it down a 1/16-1/8" in
> thickness to straighten it out it wouldn't be useable for furniture...
> trim/casing where you are nailing it down yes, furniture no. It might
> have been "perfect" leaving the mill but after experiencing the
> environment it isn't.
>
>
>>>> All the ply I got from HD twisted
>>>> like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
>>>> it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.
>>>
>>
>> I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were
>> you. It seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it
>> that this wood does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you
>> get it home? The stores are not terribly climate controlled so
>> whatever you see on the floor is pretty much what you will have when
>> you get it home. Pretzels?
>
> I find that you have to let the moisture equalize on both sides of the
> sheets for a few days before they come close to straight and flat. Even
> in the store the top sheet or two is often not flat due to the moisture
> difference across sides. The last couple sheets of cabinet grade ply I
> grabbed at HD took about a week to settle down in my "winter dry" shop.
> Before they settled down it would have been very difficult to work with
> as the sheets wouldn't lay flat on the table saw, shaper, or any other
> surface. The source doesn't seem to matter, it's more an issue of
> pulling sheets from standard shipping units that trap moisture and gases
> on one hand and keep moisture out on the other.
>
> John
>
>
>
I think there are a lot of people who buy their lumber S2S or better at a
store and then work with those boards. Assuming that you select only the
good straight stock before you plunk down the big bucks, you already have
"jointed" and planed stock.
If that is the case for you, then you could expect that the board is pretty
flat and not twisted. Then you don't need a wide jointer. But you would
still need a wider planer if reducing the thickness of an already good board
for some particular purpose.
On the other hand, if you work with a lot of rough sawn lumber, as I do,
you are working with twisted, cupped and bowed stuff real often. I could
really use a jointer wider than my 6 inch in this case. But come people
have told me that, even then,
they simply cut boards down to fit the jointer and glue up for wider stock.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------
On 4/8/2012 10:33 PM, Duesenberg wrote:
> On 4/7/2012 10:44 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> RonB wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently Ryobi adopted the Craftsman business
>>> model because it has been down hill since the late 90's. Shop
>>> carefully and use on-line reviews before you end up buying a bargain
>>> that will frustrate you for as long as you own the machine.
>>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, Ryobi (which used to be pretty decent stuff at one
>> time), has
>> become the universal junk line - across all of their product set. Their
>> power equipment is pure junk these days.
>>
>
>
> Ryobi is made by the same Chinese company as Ridgid power tools and
> Milwaukee power tools are.
Perhaps more accurately, "Some" of those tools are made by a Chinese
tool company.
>
> Apparently The same company that makes Ryobi tools also makes Craftsman
> and Mastercraft, however I was always under the Impression that
> Craftsman were made by the most part, by Skil and Craftsman Professional
> by Bosch.
Ryobi has made some of the Craftsman power tools for decades. Along
with DeWalt, Bosch, B&D, etc.
>
> Skil and Ryobi power tools were owned by the same company in the 1990s
> but that is no longer the case.
Skil has been owned by Bosch since the mid 90's.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:25:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:35:51 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>>>>>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>>>>> posterity.
>>>>
>>>> No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
>>>> fault of "MBAthink"
>>>>
>>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>>>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>>>
>>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>>
>> While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
>> that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
>> better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
>> Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
>> Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
>> -any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
>
>
>Was altruism even in the topic? I was under the impression that the
>discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
>the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
>to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.
Have knee, will jerk, eh? OK, be that way. ;) This is a discussion,
is it not? Are other ideas and related thoughts disallowed?
>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>
>What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down your
>throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my throat. If
>I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
I was simply referencing the SawStop Mentality, where some inventors
wish the world to make them rich and are trying to cause our gov't
regulators to make their saw mandatory. In the PC and UN versions of
Washington, D.C. that could happen.
>Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
>with my Festool. You returned you Makita saw didn't you?? ;~) I have
>not yet returned any of my Festool and I had a 30 day try out period
>with each Festool power tool purchase so I am not hiding buyers remorse.
No, I didn't return the Makita after I found out that the nature of
the beast, including the Festool plunge saws, is to growl and vibrate
during soft start.
> I have and still use both Makita and Festool so I have first hand
>knowledge of the quality of both and where one brand excels over the other.
>Now I think I am just as happy with my Accord as the guy in the next
>neighborhood that owns a Maserati. And I am fully aware that ignorance
>is bliss so I don't really know if I am as happy or not but I am content
>with my decisions. But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
>accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.
>
>
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On 4/11/2012 9:17 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:25:56 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:35:51 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>>> On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>>>>>>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>>>>>> posterity.
>>>>>
>>>>> No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
>>>>> fault of "MBAthink"
>>>>>
>>>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>>>>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>>>>
>>>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>>>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>>>
>>> While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
>>> that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
>>> better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
>>> Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
>>> Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
>>> -any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
>>
>>
>> Was altruism even in the topic? I was under the impression that the
>> discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
>> the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
>> to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.
>
> Have knee, will jerk, eh? OK, be that way. ;) This is a discussion,
> is it not? Are other ideas and related thoughts disallowed?
That is ok but I was simply asking a question. You took such a nose
dive in another direction I could not follow.
>
>
>>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>>
>> What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down your
>> throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my throat. If
>> I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
>
> I was simply referencing the SawStop Mentality, where some inventors
> wish the world to make them rich and are trying to cause our gov't
> regulators to make their saw mandatory. In the PC and UN versions of
> Washington, D.C. that could happen.
Could happen, does happen and has been happening for years. Nothing new.
>
>
>> Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
>> with my Festool. You returned you Makita saw didn't you?? ;~) I have
>> not yet returned any of my Festool and I had a 30 day try out period
>> with each Festool power tool purchase so I am not hiding buyers remorse.
>
> No, I didn't return the Makita after I found out that the nature of
> the beast, including the Festool plunge saws, is to growl and vibrate
> during soft start.
Correct, add to that every power tool with soft start that I own
regardless of brand.
>
>
>> I have and still use both Makita and Festool so I have first hand
>> knowledge of the quality of both and where one brand excels over the other.
>> Now I think I am just as happy with my Accord as the guy in the next
>> neighborhood that owns a Maserati. And I am fully aware that ignorance
>> is bliss so I don't really know if I am as happy or not but I am content
>> with my decisions. But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
>> accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.
Quite the opposite for me. I have dealt with too many C level guys who
make bad decisions ... to not making decisions.
Maybe I need to get out of the NY/NJ area. Too many weenies.
On 4/11/2012 1:33 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/10/2012 5:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs
>>>> in the big corporations don't have much incentive to
>>>> "rock-the-boat" (take chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM
>>>> especially. But the likes of Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point
>>>> is that it's not just the MBA "save a dime" mentality, but the
>>>> corporate (compensation) structure--which is to blame. It's
>>>> something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire nicely, and get
>>>> outta here (without rocking the boat)".
>>>
>>> That's only part of it, but not the worst part.
>>>
>>> That worst part is the mentality that the recipient of an MBA is
>>> somehow suddenly endowed with the knowledge to the point of needing
>>> to know nothing about a product to run the company making the
>>> product; the mentality that "acquisition" is the all encompassing
>>> solution to innovation; the part that fires the experience
>>> responsible for the very innovation and quality that made the
>>> company a worthwhile acquisition in the first to place pursue
>>> mediocrity in worshiping the bottom line; the mentality that
>>> insulates management from consumers; the idea that appearance, and
>>> not substance, is the only quality necessary ...
>>
>>
>> Nicely stated.
>
> I should have responded to Karl, but I got distracted by other things. My
> only comment is that I have met and worked with many - many MBA's who do not
> fit this cookie cutter mold of what's wrong with MBA's. I do agree with
> Karl that this can indeed be a problem and that in fact - it has pretty much
> proven itself to be an existent problem - but I disagree with the
> generalization of MBA's. I have dealt with far too many C-Level executives
> who were MBA's, and who exhibited too many contrary atributes to accept this
> as a broad brush statement. The problem in a forum like this is that too
> many people jump on bandwagons to ostrasize things that they really have
> little experience with. This thread has a certain nature of "let's bash the
> MBA". Maybe that comes from those who resent the knowledge of those who
> have invested in that degree, while they themselves, did not.
>
On 4/11/2012 1:52 PM, Han wrote:
> That is a different common sense than I know. But perhaps that is
> because I worked for 34 years in a VA hospital, where things were often
> done because ...
From someone who has been a patient at a VA hospital for 40 years. my
sympathies. ;)
<actually, as long as you are capable of taking control of, and being
personally involved in managing your own healthcare, the VA hospital
here is, for the most part, an excellent facility.>
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/11/2012 7:36 AM, Han wrote:
> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
>>>> remember filling up my car for $2.
>>>
>>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>>
>> I started driving (legally...) in '69 and was paying just under $0.25
>> per gallon in Albany, NY. I remember us all complaining when it hit
>> $0.25 - and then went all the way up to $0.30. Then of course, came
>> the Oil Embargo and the unbelievable happened, as gas hit $1.00 per
>> gallon. Shoulda heard us scream then! Wanna see a grown man cry?
>> Join me the next time I have to fill up my Silverado.
>
> Come on, guys. Quit your bellyaching. Gas is $10/gal in EUrope, and
> they still drive big cars on the Autobahn and Autostrada.
But but but I live in Texas!!! Driving across Texas is like driving
Across all of Germany 2~3 times. A trip from eastern Germany to western
Germany is like driving from one large city to the next in Texas, When
you don't have far to go price is not a big of a factor in living expenses.
If the United States was 250 miles across I would not have a problem
paying $20 per gallon.
On 4/10/2012 10:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 4:31 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge,
>>> which I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their
>>> stuff (since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not
>>> been able to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.
>>
>>
>> Laying flat on a solid flat surface is best. HD tends to balance
>> plywood on two forks, laying sorta flat.
>
> I think it's four, but I'm not sure. I know it's four when it's up in the
> air, but I can't remember what it is when it's on the floor.
>
May be, I was thinking of Lowe's which I go to on occasion and actually
did yesterday. Their plywood was on 2 forks and absolutely had a bow in
the middle, especially the < 23/32" stuff.
On 4/11/2012 6:54 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 12:43 PM, Dave wrote:
>
>>> And, your example of Home Depot also falls short. Board width has
>>> diminished at HD.
>>
>> That's garbage Dave, as long as I've been buying wood, the width of
>> lumber has been the same. A 2x6 is 5.5 inches, same as it was then. A
>> 1x8 is 7 1/4, same as it was then. You don't know what your talking
>> about, or your HD is ripping you off.
>
> I've rarely had need for 2x6 but time was when a 2x4 was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8.
> Now, 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.
I recall that too but then again 2x stock was hard wood at one time
also. The current measurement of 2x stock has been common for at least
40 years... A friend did some remodeling of his old 20's home, wall
studs were oak.
>
> As far as quality goes, things like clear, edge grain fir were readily
> available at decent prices (in the west at least). FAS hardwoods too. That
> was pre-Home Depot.
Don't blame the current big box stores for bringing poor quality lumber,
they are not the producers and I recall seeing "piss" poor lumber, 8'
2x4's with a 7 inch bow, long before I ever saw a HomePro/Builders
Square.Home Depot or Lowes.
Remember Handy Dan? That was here I recall seeing the stack of bowed 2x4's.
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 11:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known
>>>>> someone
>>>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>>>
>>>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>>>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>>>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>>>> mentality.
>>>
>>> The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
>>> Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
>>> the MBA's you speak of.Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
>>> a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
>>> sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
>>> can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
>>> it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.
>>>
>>> I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
>>> up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.
>>
>> Bullshit! :)
>
> You telling me I can't buy these tools?
>>
>> Jack, my friend, you miss the point, and concept expressed in the term,
>> entirely.
>
> No, didn't miss anything. In fact, I totally understand what you are
> trying to say, and have the same beefs myself when not thinking clearly.
>
>> Instead of continuing the innovation and engineering that built
>> _quality_ into a previously respected brand/product, the name of the
>> game, as played by the current "Ryobi" and MBAthink ilk, is:
>>
>> ~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
>> and quality engineering.
>>
>> ~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
>> _price point engineering_ .
>>
>> ~ Manufacturing same as cheaply as possible by use of cheap materials,
>> low cost, unskilled labor
>>
>> ~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising, to dupes, suckers, and
>> the ignorant unsuspecting, by relying solely upon the previous
>> reputation of the brand, and for whatever the market will bear.
>>
>> All above, basic tenets of "MBAthink" as expressed. (IOW, you do not
>> have to have any knowledge whatsoever of a product in order to
>> successfully market it by simply buying the name and making it cheap ...
>> AKA "fuck the quality, it's our bottom line, stupid" ... and we see what
>> kind of crap that has served up)
>
> Sorry, but all markets are filled. Larry can buy his cheap stuff, I can
> buy my mediocre stuff, and you and Leon can buy your overpriced, I mean,
> top quality stuff. The largest market is the cheap stuff, so that is
> what abounds, the smallest market is the high priced stuff, so it
> doesn't abound. It's as simple as that.
Well since you have mention me I will make a comment. Until you have
actually purchased and used all levels of and including quality tools
and equipment you will never ever understand how higher quality is the
better choice every time. You may now put your head back in the sand.
Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>In the 70's, old-growth redwood was common
>> and beautiful. Good luck finding either today.
>
>In the early 70's I bought a redwood picnic table. I actually thought
>it was Redwood. When I started assembling it, turned out it was really
>white wood (pine) stained red. I actually, in my youth, called the
>Better Business Bureau and he asked if it was Redwood or redwood...
>
>Anyway, I didn't think Redwood grew anywhere but California, and cutting
>those babies was not happening anymore?
If you'd read what I wrote, you would have noticed the "In the 70's" and
"good luck finding it today".
As it happens, there is still quite a bit of redwood being cut, as it grows
relatively fast. None of it is old-growth (100+ year old trees), the few
that are left are protected.
Of that which _is_ being cut, there is much less heartwood, which is the
most insect and rot resistant. Most wood fencing material in california
is redwood, still.
scott
(still holding onto two nice redwood burl slabs - 48 x 30 x 3 waney).
On 4/9/2012 11:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>
>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>> mentality.
>
> I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
> luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
> that's common to pricy tools, too.
>
> I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
> prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book.<g>
You reallllly don't believe that do you???
>
> I recently bought the large kit for less than an equivalent drill
> motor from the top brands. $125 got me a drill motor, recip saw, circ
> saw, flashlight, two batteries, charger, and nylon kit bag to carry
> them in. The 18v circ saw outlasts my old 14.4v saw by a 3:1 margin,
> but is still too short. That's the only negative thing I can say about
> them. The drill motors have dual bubble levels on them, so you can
> drill precisely vertically or horizontally. It's a GREAT idea, one
> which I don't see on other brands. http://tinyurl.com/7am9bla
>
> I think I first started buying Ryobis in 1999, though. Perhaps I
> waited out the JD trashing and got good tools.
Actually the good Ryobi tools were built in the 80's, IMHO about
equivalent to Makita back then and mostly sold by tool dealers.
>
> No, they're not Festools, but they have been great values, which is
> what I look for. I'm not made of money, unlike you rich Texicans.
>
> --
> Live Simply. Speak Kindly. Care Deeply. Love Generously.
> -- anon
On 4/7/2012 2:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
>
> Thanks!
And oddly I have no jointer and a 15" planer. I did have a jointer and
never used it.
Anyway, to answer your question. A jointer helps to initially true up
one side and one edge of a board. Call it 6 inches wide. Now glue up
that board to another of the same size, you need twice the capacity.
The sizes you mentioned are common sizes but certainly not the only
sizes. For a stationary jointer the 6" is pretty much entry level in
size and 12" for a planer is pretty small with 13"~15" being the norm.
And for what it is worth the combination jointer/planer is beginning to
be more common place. It is typically less expensive than buying a
stationary jointer and stationary planer and takes up half the room.
http://www.amazon.com/JET-JJP-12-12-Inch-Jointer-Planer/dp/B0011TKF8G/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1333889764&sr=8-25
Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:57:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>Don't blame the current big box stores for bringing poor quality
>>lumber,
>> they are not the producers and I recall seeing "piss" poor lumber,
>> 8'
>>2x4's with a 7 inch bow, long before I ever saw a HomePro/Builders
>>Square.Home Depot or Lowes.
>
> Sure it's their fault. They could supply the better quality stuff if
> they wanted to. But, before a dozen people reply, I'll admit that the
> demand for cheaper products is driven by the consumer.
>
Where I think the quality/price battle is being lost is in educating the
purchaser. Menards carries 4x8 sheets of Birch-faced plywood. One
stack is priced at $30, and the other stack is priced at $40. What's
the difference?
There's nothing on the display to indicate what's different and the guy
at the store doesn't know, so how am I supposed to make an informed
decision? All I have to go on is price, and lower is better.
I don't mind paying extra for better quality, but you have to show me
where to look.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
Puckdropper wrote:
>
> Where I think the quality/price battle is being lost is in educating
> the purchaser. Menards carries 4x8 sheets of Birch-faced plywood.
> One stack is priced at $30, and the other stack is priced at $40.
> What's the difference?
>
> There's nothing on the display to indicate what's different and the
> guy at the store doesn't know, so how am I supposed to make an
> informed decision? All I have to go on is price, and lower is better.
>
> I don't mind paying extra for better quality, but you have to show me
> where to look.
>
Perfect question - and the answer is supposed to lie with the store
personnel. Unfortunately... it doesn't always. But - it's the consumer who
suffers if he/she does not hold the merchandizer to a standard of offering -
and that includes educated staff on the floor.
I know that HD invests a ton of money in educating associates - they
literally provide all of the education any associate could ever need in
every department. Trust me - they do a great job of making knowledge
available, and in theory... required. If local stores don't hold associates
to those standards, then the consumer voice can be a very effective tool in
changing that. HD has teams of people that pay attention to this stuff. I
don't know about Lowe's or Mennards, but I suspect they do like things.
I took hundreds of courses when I worked at HD, and despite what anyone here
wants to say - it is very good training that goes into great detail - if you
want to pursue that level of knowledge. Not all of it is mandatory, but the
mandatory stuff should at least provide the answers to questions like you
pose above. Shameful if any store cannot answer your question.
I'd go to the store manager and I'd go to his district manager to express my
concern. If they don't respond, then simply go to the corporate feedback
channels. They really do look at this stuff. Trust me - I know they do!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:57:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Don't blame the current big box stores for bringing poor quality lumber,
> they are not the producers and I recall seeing "piss" poor lumber, 8'
>2x4's with a 7 inch bow, long before I ever saw a HomePro/Builders
>Square.Home Depot or Lowes.
Sure it's their fault. They could supply the better quality stuff if
they wanted to. But, before a dozen people reply, I'll admit that the
demand for cheaper products is driven by the consumer.
On 4/11/2012 7:36 AM, Han wrote:
> While the current high prices in the US are an aberration, inflation has
> made 1 USD in 1970 worth over $6 in 2012.
Shhhhhhh ... the congresscritters have insured that fuel and food are
not indexed in inflation.
That has to be one of the more egregious actions pulled on the sheeple,
but they don't seem to give it a thought.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
In the MBAs world, you are judged by the here and now. No foresight into
the future. Little investment in the future. Most all MBA's are NOW
based. And sometimes you have to realize that the investment in quality
will take time to accrue. And people will take notice. Is everything
going to be at the Walmart, and HD level? Because that is where we are
heading if you say it's what the market will bear or what the market
wants. That's where the most people are. But is that necessary to be
profitable?
What if some companies say ... hey lets produce a quality product, not a
cheap POC. And what if the CEO was willing to accept that market
share. Would that be right? Because with today's thinking everyone
thinks you need to get bigger or you'll be out of business. What if you
just wanted to be profitable and put out a good product? Years ago you
didn't need to grow at a phenomenal rate. Years ago each town looked
different. And when I traveled the country by motorcycle each one not
only looked different, but they really were. Now they are all the same.
The same malls, the same stores. The same big box stores. In many towns
the original town is a ghost town. The big stores moved to the outskirts
of towns. It's ugly the blight they caused in many towns. Some town are
coming back as restaurant havens. But the reality is that this was not
good for America. Most of these jobs are low paying jobs, and most of
the goods come from outside the country.
Lets take a small example. Something we can all talk about.
Stanley tools.
So do you think Stanley went in the right direction?
Do you think the steering of Stanley made it a better company?
Aside from BOSTICH, I think of the Stanley brand as a lost brand. It is
useless. It got away from what it did well.
Example, the lever lock that many of you miss. Where is it? It's been
replaced by crap. The planes that they used to produce. Replaced by
crap. The levels that they used to produce. Crap...
Oh yea it was the market that did that... Hell no. It wasn't the
consumer either. It was the people in the corp world looking to reduce
cost. This reduction of cost caused a reduction in quality. Since the
masses really had no other choice, and brand loyalty being what it is
people kept buy the crap, but complained about the lack of quality. But
what choice did they have. For a long time none.
Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley to the rescue.
Lets talk about Irwin buying Marples. take a look at the Marples
chisels. They are poorly made by comparison to yesteryears. Quality goes
as the MBA thinks we can do a little less and still retain mkt share.
Ok off my rant, I have to carry some wood in.
On 4/10/2012 2:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones
>>> who are most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One
>>> has to wonder...
>>
>> Welcome to the sound of a once powerful, now almost non-existent,
>> manufacturing sector as it takes its dying gasps, kept alive by tax
>> payer bailouts and government intervention ... the product of fools,
>> and damned fools.
>
> Then maybe we should call it Profit-think, or CEO-think. The MBA thing had
> a valid definition back when GM was making stupid decisions based on a penny
> savings per car, but it does not reflect the most of the business world
> today. Profit is profit and that has always been the primary motive of any
> business - long before the GM MBA stuff. To put all profit oriented
> thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted. The
> alternative is to assume that business should be happy to run at a loss?
>
On 4/11/2012 10:00 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
>>> like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
>>> they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
>>> on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.
>>
>>
>> I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
>> lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
>> but IMHO not the best way.
>
> My local Woodcraft has their baltic birch plywood on edge, at least
> the partial sheets. I didn't spot the full sheets.
>
>
Yeah I will admit to seeing the partial sheets being stored on edge and
not being flat.
On 4/11/2012 11:06 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 2:01 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>
>>> Sorry, but all markets are filled. Larry can buy his cheap stuff, I can
>>> buy my mediocre stuff, and you and Leon can buy your overpriced, I mean,
>>> top quality stuff. The largest market is the cheap stuff, so that is
>>> what abounds, the smallest market is the high priced stuff, so it
>>> doesn't abound. It's as simple as that.
>>
>> Well since you have mention me I will make a comment. Until you have
>> actually purchased and used all levels of and including quality tools
>> and equipment you will never ever understand how higher quality is the
>> better choice every time. You may now put your head back in the sand.
>
> Out of curiosity, do you drive a Bentley and your pickup is a Lincoln,
> or don't you understand what a quality vehicle is?
I retired from the automotive industry at age 40 and comfortably. I
certainly know what a quality vehicle is. But since you are asking me,
do you?
>
> Do you really think you're the only one that uses/recognizes good tools
> because you own a $500 vacuum cleaner? Sometimes I wonder where your
> head is, and sand ain't it.
>
Jack you are just jealous, I have see your kind of response time and
again. I am sure you recognize what a good tool Festool and Saw Stop
are but your belligerence will not allow you to admit it. Too bad.
On 4/11/2012 1:13 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 11:34 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Jack<[email protected]> writes:
>>>> Obama owes $11 Trillion or so, and all he needs to do is
>>>> print a bunch of Trillion dollar bills and it would be not that
>>>> much.
>>>
>>> For your information, Obama doesn't:
>>>
>>> 1) owe anybody anything
>>
>> Actually he owes us the responsibility of being the president.
>
> Preach it brother! Where does this stupid notion come from that he owes us
> nothing? Patently stupid!
>
>
>>
>>
>>> 2) have responsibility for the deficts that were inflicted on the
>>> country by:
>>> a) the republican tax reductions without corresponding
>>> reductions in spending[**]
>>
>> Actually you can blame "ALL" past administrations, Republican and
>> Democrat. And if you want to be technical it was during Jimmy Carters
>> administration that the United States first learned what being in debt
>> over one trillion dollars was all about.
>
> Don't confuse the discussion with facts now Leon...
>
DAMN! sorry I forgot... ;~)
On 4/10/2012 11:15 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 9:49 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
>>> Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.
>>>
>>> And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and
>>> ply.
>>
>> Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere that
>> in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you melted the
>> silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a gallon of gas
>> with them. Wood is probably no different.
>>
>
>
>
>> Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
>> money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
>> printing press.
>>
>
> Well, taking money out of circulation works too. One might even argue
> that the reduction in the value of home prices reduced purchasing power,
> which may have increased the relative value of a dollar. No?
>
> Perhaps that partly explains why the rate of inflation now is not higher
> now than I anticipated it would be.
It isn't high? Things have doubled in price in the last few years. The
Gov. reports low inflation. Yet doubling is not low. Sorry I don't agree
with the inflation numbers. There's something wrong with them.
>
> Bill
Jack, have you bought from local mills, or guys that do their own wood.
I buy from guys that are not your traditional lumber yards.
More like mills.
Some advertise on the side of the road... hardwood for sale.
at first when I moved here I thought these guys were selling firewood.
Then it dawned on me it doesn't say firewood.
Stop going to the HD for hardwood. Awful stuff. And no it's not high
quality. High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
twisted like pretzels.
So I have never bought from a lumber or HD quality wood. I have seen it
in old pieces of furniture that I have refinished.. tight growth rings.
Beautiful looks. What I buy from HD is ply or 2x4. But even that I am
reluctant too lately. All the ply I got from HD twisted like a pretzel.
How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in it... Pretty stable.
I can't get it flat again.
I have gotten some decent wood from these small mills. So I'll
respectfully disagree.
On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:49:31 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
>>> that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
>>> melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
>>> gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.
>>
>> Sorry, can't agree with that viewpoint. The big difference these days
>> is the fact that the availability of quality wood has diminished
>> greatly.
>
> Depends on what you mean by quality wood. Certainly wood from rain
> forests is scarce, or illegal to buy, so the price is high. I just went
> to my shop and found some papers on stuff I made in 1978. I had paid 42
> cents a foot for #2 2x6 pine. Looking up at HD today, the same wood is
> 63 cents a foot. Going to http://www.westegg.com inflation calculator,
> that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
> it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the same
> or better than what I got in 1978. This may not be true of all species
> of wood, but is for the most commonly used stuff. In fact, I remember
> big stores like Busy Beaver sold #4 junk graded as #2, so I would
> generally buy from a higher priced yard where #2 was #2. HD, at least
> mine, the #2 is mostly pretty decent stuff, no complaints from me.
>
> Sure, top quality wood is still available if you've got the
>> bucks, but even the high price hasn't kept up with the loss of quality
>> wood products. This is evidenced by the vanishing of lumberyards and
>> the companies who specialize in reclaimed wood.
>
> Lumberyards have just about disappeared from my area. I need to buy some
> hard wood and don't even know where to go. HD sells super high quality,
> select #1 oak at like a $million a foot. Rockler sells all sorts of crap
> at unbelievable prices. There is one lumber yard left in my area and I
> hated that place 40 years ago because of high prices and lack of
> selection, so won't go there.
>
>> Hell, it's pretty obvious when we see plastic composites replacing
>> deck boards. Sure, much the demand for this counterfeit cedar is
>> driven by people wanting material that doesn't decay.
>
> Every time I stain my deck, (every other year) I wish I would have used
> plastic instead of real wood.
>
> But, a great
>> deal of that demand is also driven by the high cost accompanied by the
>> lessening availability of the real product.
>
> I don't think wolmanized decking is any more expensive now than it was
> 25 years ago, adjusted for inflation. I don't have prices for when I
> built my deck, so can only guess, unlike what I did above.
>
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "John Grossbohlin" wrote:
>
>>
>> I've seen multitudes of political failures in organizations... competing
>> agendas and infighting that leads to executives being walked out. It
>> doesn't mean the victor was right or better, it just means they won the
>> political battle.
> ------------------------------------
> Oh the joys of field sales.
>
> Stay in the field, make budget, stay out of office politics, enjoy life.
>
> Lew
Unfortunately, I've seen political battles leave the rank and file in a
position where they didn't know what to do as the winner didn't have a plan
beyond winning the battle.... Lacking direction/saleable product/resources
most of the rank and file couldn't perform well. That combined with 0%
raises led to more discontent and departures. I'm tired of watching formerly
high performing organizations fail due to this kind of stuff...
John
On 4/7/2012 8:04 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Not...
Not?????
> Jointers come in 4,6,8,and 12 inch models. The most common hobbiest is
> the 6" If you can afford it 8" is better.
A slight amount of research on many manufacturers web sites reveals,
16" and 17" jointers
http://www.amazon.com/JET-JJP-12-12-Inch-Jointer-Planer/dp/B0011TKF8G/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1333889764&sr=8-25
http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-signature
or a 20 incher
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=60&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35
http://www.format-4usa.com/products_details.php?parent=9858253498b06809439e&xat_code=bfc9ffc963f476641437®ion=us-us&felder-group=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.feldergroupusa.com%2Fus-us%2Fjointer-planersjointersplaners%2Fjointers.html
On 4/10/2012 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones who are
> most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One has to
> wonder...
Welcome to the sound of a once powerful, now almost non-existent,
manufacturing sector as it takes its dying gasps, kept alive by tax
payer bailouts and government intervention ... the product of fools, and
damned fools.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
That hammer is awesome. I like the doweling and mortising capability in
one unit. Wooo hooo.
On 4/8/2012 9:06 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 07:59:14 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> And for what it is worth the combination jointer/planer is beginning to
>> be more common place. It is typically less expensive than buying a
>> stationary jointer and stationary planer and takes up half the room.
>> http://www.amazon.com/JET-JJP-12-12-Inch-Jointer-Planer/dp/B0011TKF8G/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1333889764&sr=8-25
>
> No, no no. We have to go with quality here.
> http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/jointerplaners/jointer-planer-a3-41--410-mm.html
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>
>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
>>> remember filling up my car for $2.
>>
>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup. <gack>
>
> I started driving (legally...) in '69 and was paying just under $0.25
> per gallon in Albany, NY. I remember us all complaining when it hit
> $0.25 - and then went all the way up to $0.30. Then of course, came
> the Oil Embargo and the unbelievable happened, as gas hit $1.00 per
> gallon. Shoulda heard us scream then! Wanna see a grown man cry?
> Join me the next time I have to fill up my Silverado.
Come on, guys. Quit your bellyaching. Gas is $10/gal in EUrope, and
they still drive big cars on the Autobahn and Autostrada.
While the current high prices in the US are an aberration, inflation has
made 1 USD in 1970 worth over $6 in 2012. Add in the extra taxes that (I
believe) were levied on gasoline since, and you'll get very close to at
least $2 to $2.50. And as the oil crisis of the 70s showed, supply and
demand can out-duel sense anytime. You $0.15 cup of coffee of the early
70s (which was refilled at will), now costs a bit more too.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime,
>>>>> and I'm
>>>>> under 60 (barely)
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit
>>>> in the late '50s.
>>>>
>>>> Known as "gas wars".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
>>> remember filling up my car for $2.
>>
>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>
> So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
> to be in 1970`1972.
> A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
> now about $40k
>
> I guarantee you that if an alternative fuel that we have to purchase
> replaces petroleum based products we will be paying more for the same
> amount of energy. If this was not true we would have switched decades
> ago. Oil is way too plentiful to be expensive, relatively.
>
> If electric cars become mainstream demand will increase and our
> electricity rates will surely increase, and not just the amount of
> extra usage but for the same reason oil prices increase.
>
> Just wait until some one comes up with a way to measure every breath
> you take...
That reasoning leaves out the increased efficiency in using energy.
Right now, natural gas is even cheaper than coal, and much more friendly
for the environment. That may not last forever, but seems likely for at
least a number of years. Electric propulsion for vehicles is alo much
more efficient than gasoline, but it suffers from the big HUGE problem of
storage. You can't really store electricity very easily. Li batteries
were a great leap forward, but we need at least another 10-fold greater
storage capability per unit mass, plus the ability to quickly recharge.
Not very easy to accomplish.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/11/2012 7:36 AM, Han wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
>>>>> remember filling up my car for $2.
>>>>
>>>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>>>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>>>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>>>
>>> I started driving (legally...) in '69 and was paying just under
>>> $0.25 per gallon in Albany, NY. I remember us all complaining when
>>> it hit $0.25 - and then went all the way up to $0.30. Then of
>>> course, came the Oil Embargo and the unbelievable happened, as gas
>>> hit $1.00 per gallon. Shoulda heard us scream then! Wanna see a
>>> grown man cry? Join me the next time I have to fill up my Silverado.
>>
>> Come on, guys. Quit your bellyaching. Gas is $10/gal in EUrope, and
>> they still drive big cars on the Autobahn and Autostrada.
>
> But but but I live in Texas!!! Driving across Texas is like driving
> Across all of Germany 2~3 times. A trip from eastern Germany to
> western Germany is like driving from one large city to the next in
> Texas, When you don't have far to go price is not a big of a factor
> in living expenses.
>
> If the United States was 250 miles across I would not have a problem
> paying $20 per gallon.
That may be part of the equation, Leon, but there are plenty of people in
Europe who commute an hour or more each way, just like here in the NYC
area, and I'm sure around Houston as well. Yesterday I paid $3.65/gal at
cheap Eddie's, and it really should be under $3/gal. Let's see - China
and India are sucking oil. Iran has financial problems. Nigeria has
problems. Brazil has problems. Venezuela has Hugo C. Best thing is to
get to use less oil. Supply and demand will take care of the rest.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/11/2012 7:36 AM, Han wrote:
>
>> While the current high prices in the US are an aberration, inflation has
>> made 1 USD in 1970 worth over $6 in 2012.
>
>
> Shhhhhhh ... the congresscritters have insured that fuel and food are
> not indexed in inflation.
>
> That has to be one of the more egregious actions pulled on the sheeple,
> but they don't seem to give it a thought.
Where inthe job description of the sheeple does it say anything about
thinking? As the janitor told me, common sense is a misnomer, it isn't
common at all.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/11/2012 8:14 AM, Han wrote:
>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 4/11/2012 7:36 AM, Han wrote:
>>>
>>>> While the current high prices in the US are an aberration,
>>>> inflation has made 1 USD in 1970 worth over $6 in 2012.
>>>
>>>
>>> Shhhhhhh ... the congresscritters have insured that fuel and food
>>> are not indexed in inflation.
>>>
>>> That has to be one of the more egregious actions pulled on the
>>> sheeple, but they don't seem to give it a thought.
>>
>> Where inthe job description of the sheeple does it say anything about
>> thinking? As the janitor told me, common sense is a misnomer, it
>> isn't common at all.
>
> And since when does common sense make a person anywhere near smart???
> LOL
>
> Common sense is common, it is just that if you don't at least have
> common sense you are an idiot.
That is a different common sense than I know. But perhaps that is
because I worked for 34 years in a VA hospital, where things were often
done because ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/11/2012 1:52 PM, Han wrote:
>
>> That is a different common sense than I know. But perhaps that is
>> because I worked for 34 years in a VA hospital, where things were
>> often done because ...
>
> From someone who has been a patient at a VA hospital for 40 years. my
> sympathies. ;)
>
> <actually, as long as you are capable of taking control of, and being
> personally involved in managing your own healthcare, the VA hospital
> here is, for the most part, an excellent facility.>
I'm sorry you were a patient for 40 years (I hope you were at least an
outpatient, not actually in a bed in the VA for all that time). But
kidding aside, I believe the Manhattan VA is an excellent hospital, with
caring health professionals up and down the ranks. I was a bench
researcher all that time. No patient care whatsoever. I did use a bit
of their employee health care, and those experiences were good if not
excellent.
It's in general the bureaucracy that is invoked when not really always
necessary, and immediately discarded when inconvenient to the rulers.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/11/2012 3:07 PM, Han wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry you were a patient for 40 years (I hope you were at least an
>> outpatient, not actually in a bed in the VA for all that time).
>
> LOL I think the terminology is "numbers", not patients. The loudspeaker
> in each clinic is continually bellowing out: "Now serving Numbers 756,
> 757, 758, ...), which means you get to proceed to another window, and
> take another number. ;)
The pharmacy windows in the Manhattan VA were just off the main lobby, and
by golly were those lines long ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>On 4/10/2012 12:43 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:10:15 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
>>> it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the
>>> same or better than what I got in 1978.
>>
>> That's garbage Jack and you know it. The cheap wood in 1978 was
>> essentially straight grained and mostly knot free.
>
>You are a lying sack of shit.
>
>How's that?
>
>I don't lie, ever, period. The lumber at my HD is as good or better
>than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's.
In other words, you were getting shit in the 70's, and you're getting
shit today.
Clearly, there will be geographical differences in what is available.
In the west, in the 70's, even regular studs were old-growth douglas
fir, tight straight grain. In the 70's, old-growth redwood was common
and beautiful. Good luck finding either today.
scott
On 4/9/2012 10:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>
> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
> since to the ridiculous extreme of
> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
> mentality.
>
IIRC developed by the government and in use today by the government, in
all branches.
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Han wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:495c6$4f85bad8 [email protected]:
>
>
> Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
> patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has
> the right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another
> question that litigation should clarify. License fees are supposed
> to be reasonable.
There is no legislation in the US Han that states that license fees are
supposed to be reasonable. There's not even a definition for what
reasonable means. Litigation won't determine that point.
> I was flabbergasted that the Ryobi lawsuit was so
> successful up through the appellate stage. That shouldn't have
> happened, IMNSHO.
I agree.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
> way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
> much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
> chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology.
So, here's the thought that keeps coming back to me... (and mind you - I
have no more insight into this than you, so we're both really dealing in the
realm of speculation). I'm wondering how much the legal department got into
the mix and screwed up any possible deals - moreso than any economic issues.
Lawyers are notorious for not wanting to admit any current or past
liabilities - even beyond what would make sense to you and I. I wonder how
much Ryobi's and every other manufacturer's legal departments agreed that
there was too much legal exposure if they embraced this technology. Price
may also have been an issue, but I just keep wondering if it wasn't more
than just price.
> And for
> them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
> with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
> it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
Unethical is a very subjective term - and I do note your use of the phrase
"in my book". I just can't get past the idea that there is more to this
entire story than has made the press. Maybe I'm wrong...
>
> For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
> attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
> to what our United States Gov't means to me.
>
Could be - but only on the surface. If the entire rest of the industry is
willfully electing to do nothing, then, is that one man (or set of 4
attorneys), really all that toxic? Opportunistic? Sure. Toxic - not sure
that really applies. Remember - the entire industry had their chance to
counter and elected not to. I don't feel any sympathy for them.
>
> Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
> us now, thanks to SS.
Well - welcome to the world of ignorant people who are willing to be
protected from themselves. It's your neighbors that brought this on - not
any manufacturer.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"John Grossbohlin" wrote
>
> In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
> fees would kill the market, and at what point they would drive up the
> prices of used table saws of all ilk to satisfy market demand. He could
> all but put himself out of business if he chooses his pricing wrongly
> given the huge volumes of used equipment out there, and the fact that
> existing inventories could be rebuilt nearly indefinitely as witnessed by
> the many old Unisaws. The market will to a large degree constrain his
> choices. Something to ponder...
>
Again, he is a lawyer!
Who's to say that isn't his primary objective? Lots of lawyers take great
pride in screwing up people's lives.
On 4/11/2012 10:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
>>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>>>>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>>>>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>>>>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>>>>
>>>> What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
>>>> your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
>>>> throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
>>> directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
>>> that may or may not "force" that saw on us.
>>>
>>
>> Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop.
>
> True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
> way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
> much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
> chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology. And for
> them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
> with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
> it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
Pot, Black, Larry
If they hadn't wanted so much money one or more of the manufacturers
would have jumped at the chance to offer the first saw equipped with the
technology. Did you just make that up? Did you assume that? Did a
manufacturer actually say that???
IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
thousands.
Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
is in today.
Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that pissed a few people off?
Absoluteness! It pisses me off that the other manufacturers did not
want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
had their chance and watched it go by.
>
>
>> Don't tell him about
>> seat belts, the odor added to natural gas, or unleaded fuel.
>
> Au contraire, mon ami. I have happily worn seatbelts since owning my
> first car, a '57 Chebby Bel Air, in 1969. Dad mandated it and I
> thought it was a good idea from the getgo. I have no problem with
> odorants in the gas, either, as it saves lives and costs very little.
>
> But unleaded fuel got my goat several times. I used to have a
> California smog license and had to install vapor injectors per the
> CARB (CA Air Resources Board). I watched the devices kill perfectly
> good engines when their owners forgot to add water to them, and I saw
> the number of engines needing overhauls increase dramatically from the
> lack of padding lead in the fuel. I also read about the goodness
> coming from it, so that was a love/hate relationship, too. Sest lavvy,
> wot? (Translation for Leon: C'est la vie, oui?, or That's Life, eh?)
>
>
>> And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
>> technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
>> are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
>
> For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
> attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
> to what our United States Gov't means to me.
Apply that to your seat belts and unleaded gas.
>
>
>> I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>> regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>> saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>> to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
>
> A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
> That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
things being relative..
>
>
>> We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
>> have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
>> buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
>> homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
>> sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
>> power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.
>>
>> This is no different.
>
> Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
> us now, thanks to SS.
None that "you" know of, do some research.
Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?
Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> I'm sort of scared to make an off-topic post to this thread, but
>>> here goes:
>>
>> Well - then don't! You raise a perfectly legitimate question below
>> - why not just start a new thread and not have anything to worry
>> about?
>>>
>>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>>
>>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice
>>> as my pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers,
>>
>> How so?
>
> I have a much better idea of what jointers have to offer now, and I've
> seen I lot of imperfect lumber since I started. I'm concerned glueing
> together 16 pieces of imperfect lumber is likely to create
> unconscionable problems! : ) Glueing together 16 pieces of
> freshly-jointed lumber seems more likely to produce an near-level
> surface and well-glued joints that won't come apart. Dig?
Have you ever run a piece of lumber across a jointer? Dig?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>> I'm sort of scared to make an off-topic post to this thread, but
>>>>> here goes:
>>>>
>>>> Well - then don't! You raise a perfectly legitimate question below
>>>> - why not just start a new thread and not have anything to worry
>>>> about?
>>>>>
>>>>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>>>>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea
>>>>> of making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together,
>>>>> face-to-face, a bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s,
>>>>> ripped in half). Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be
>>>>> almost as nice
>>>>> as my pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers,
>>>>
>>>> How so?
>>>
>>> I have a much better idea of what jointers have to offer now, and
>>> I've seen I lot of imperfect lumber since I started. I'm concerned
>>> glueing together 16 pieces of imperfect lumber is likely to create
>>> unconscionable problems! : ) Glueing together 16 pieces of
>>> freshly-jointed lumber seems more likely to produce an near-level
>>> surface and well-glued joints that won't come apart. Dig?
>>
>> Have you ever run a piece of lumber across a jointer? Dig?
>>
>
> I think the teach did my board for me. But that was about 30 years ago
> and I don't know where he is now. Other things being the same, I'd
> prefer nice surfaces on the furniture I'm going to make. My wife and
> I are getting-by with two folding chairs until I produce! I suggested
> mounting my new vise on the back of hers, but she objected. ; )
Maybe I should back off Bill. My intent is really not to put you on the
spot. My intent is genuinely to encourage you to do it. I do that because
I honestly believe you will learn and gain confidence, and develop skills,
and be thrilled at the results - even if they are not quite to your initial
expectiations - at first. But, doing it will refine those skills and your
products will increasingly get closer to those noble ambitions you hold. I
think that once you just do ti (I guess I use that phrase too much...),
you'll hit the point where you start to enjoy those noble ambitions - and
then we start to really feel good!
Sorry if I have been coming on too hard.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill wrote:
> I'm sort of scared to make an off-topic post to this thread, but here
> goes:
Well - then don't! You raise a perfectly legitimate question below - why
not just start a new thread and not have anything to worry about?
>
> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>
> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as
> my pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers,
How so?
> I fear
> "near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on
> the top) and the faces too.
Don't Bill. For sure, each tool can add to the precision of your work, but
you have to remember that lots of people do all of this work - and have done
so for eons, without all of those cool tools. There are other ways to
achieve your goal. Maybe a hand plane, maybe a sanding device, maybe a
great deal of attention to how you glue up, etc. You research too much and
like I have told you before - you suffer analysis paralysis. Get out there
and do it. Sure - you'll make some mistakes, but you would with all of the
coolest of tools in your shop too. We only learn from those mistakes.
> I have been encouraged to run glue-ups
> of 4 boards, say, through my planer,
Oops - I think that I must have missed that you purchased a planer. What
did you buy? Still - use it Bill!
> and I can see how that could
> help, but I can see how things could work out a whole lot better if
> all of the boards went through a jointer first, before and after
> glueing--not
> that I have one.
And... all things could be perfect if you had perfect wood. Bill -
woodworking is about adjusting to things and making a rather imprecise
medium come out the way you want it. Don't think so much about this stuff!
Get into your shop and get working on it.
>
> What do you think? Plan for a jointer? I have collected hand
> planes, but haven't learned to use them yet. Especially, I'm
> skeptical about my ability to plane the edge of a 7' board *flat*.
Personally, I don't think there is any reason for you to plan on purchasing
a jointer. You already have tools that could do the job and you've not
moved forward with them. Why wait to buy another tool that will only result
in more questions that keep you from just going out into your shop and
learning.
Bill - I am not harping on you, though it may sound like that. I'm really
trying to encourage you. You cannot get the answers you are looking for in
a usenet forum. You are looking for knowledge and confidence and they will
only come from doing it. Some success, some failure. Learn from both.
Nobody here can make you a woodworker.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:34:06 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:17:43 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
>>a market used to paying high prices, demanding a quality product and
>>generally safety conscious. I think he is missing the boat on this
>>particular market.
>
>You're kidding right? Give him time. You'll see a commercial version
>eventually, He had to start somewhere.
And the best place to start is where you can make the most money.
Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Have you ever run a piece of lumber across a jointer?
>
>
> I've never used a hammer drill, but I can tell you I will the next
> time I drill in mortar/masonry!
So will I! And... I have used them before.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill wrote:
>
>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face,
>> a
>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>
>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice
>> as my
>> pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
>> "near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on
>> the
>> top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
>> boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help,
>> but I
>> can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
>> boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not
>> that
>> I have one.
>
>> Bill
>
>
> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer
> for this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>
> With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
> "Ney". Any "Ayes"?
--------------------------------------
A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
drum sander is another matter.
Lew
Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>
> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
> this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>
> With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
> "Ney". Any "Ayes"?
>
> Bill
After I bought my jointer, it sat in the box for a couple months before I
got around to using it. It's just not that critical of tool for general
woodworking. If you're working with rough wood, a jointer can be an
excellent tool. Borg 2x4s, reasonably selected, not so much.
If you want to buy a jointer, buy a jointer. It's one of those "last
mile" type tools that extends what you can do with wood, but it doesn't
really do anything special like a planer.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
I wrote:
>> A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide
>> commercial drum sander is another matter.
--------------------------------------
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:
> Are you sure that would work? Wouldn't a 36" or larger thickness
> planer be better?
>
> John
----------------------------------------
It's a lot easier to get rental time around here on a 48" wide drum
sander than a 36" wide thickness planer, especially when they find out
you want to expose those 36" planer blades to a soft wood glued up
lamination.
I can get a 24" x 84" top sanded flat for less than $30.00 here in
SoCal.
Lew
Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> I basically agree with you on 2by4s Puck. It was either DadiOH or the
> gentleman from NC (stuart?) who said something to the effect that you
> can't expect a board to be dimensioned unless you made it that way.
> One would want the top of a piece of furniture to be true. Of course,
> that doesn't mean an 8inch jointer is required.
>
You also can't expect a board to stay dimensioned if you cut it
yesterday. :-) Wood was alive once, and it never forgets it. (It
usually doesn't move enough to be a problem, but some times...)
To create large flat areas, I'd glue up smaller panels and plane them to
the same thickness. Then I'd glue the smaller panels into large ones,
being careful to maintain alignment. Clean up with a hand plane (some
suggest a scraper) and you're done. It might not be within .010" the
whole way across, but for most things it doesn't have to be.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:
> Gee Lew... I thought you were trying to bait folks into getting one
> of those big sanders... figured I'd push it up another notch. ;~)
--------------------------
The typical commercial drum sander has 3 sanding drums, each driven by
a 25 HP motor, and a 20 HP bag house type dust collector.
Turning on 95 HP puts things in perspective.
Makes the typical hobbist unit look like the toy it is.
Lew
Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:49:27 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
>> included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
>> selling fear as the only or key selling point.
>
> The fear of table saws, or the perception of that fear is what keeps
> many people from buying a table saw. That's one reason why the SawStop
> will sell and sell well, despite any of this mandate debate.
Perhaps so, though my experiences with other people has been different.
I've never encountered anyone who was afraid of a table saw - or at least,
it never came out in any conversations. To the contrary, I have met a good
number of people who I feared for, when using a table saw. Mostly those who
just don't pay attention to anything, and you just know that at some point,
something bad is going to happen. Maybe not real bad - or maybe real bad...
but something that they wish had not happened.
>
> The SawStop will bring out a whole new generation of woodworkers,
> people who would normally be sitting by the sidelines, wishing things
> were different. I'd bet on it.
Time will tell. I don't think there are a lot of people sitting on the
sidelines because they fear a table saw - but that's just my experiences
talking.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I wrote:
>
>>> A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
>>> drum sander is another matter.
> --------------------------------------
> "John Grossbohlin" wrote:
>
>> Are you sure that would work? Wouldn't a 36" or larger thickness planer
>> be better?
>>
>> John
> ----------------------------------------
> It's a lot easier to get rental time around here on a 48" wide drum sander
> than a 36" wide thickness planer, especially when they find out you want
> to expose those 36" planer blades to a soft wood glued up lamination.
>
> I can get a 24" x 84" top sanded flat for less than $30.00 here in SoCal.
Gee Lew... I thought you were trying to bait folks into getting one of those
big sanders... figured I'd push it up another notch. ;~)
John
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>>
>>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
>>> pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
>>> "near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
>>> top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
>>> boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
>>> can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
>>> boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
>>> I have one.
>>
>>> Bill
>>
>>
>> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
>> this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>>
>> With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
>> "Ney". Any "Ayes"?
> --------------------------------------
> A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
> drum sander is another matter.
Lew,
Are you sure that would work? Wouldn't a 36" or larger thickness planer be
better?
John
Bill wrote:
>
> Who's not enjoying noble ambitions?
> I had my sights set on a 1830's Boucher-style banjo and/or fiddle!
Go for it! You know my beliefs on that stuff!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/16/2012 11:10 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 11:15 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>>> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
>>> this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>>
>> If the only thing you plan on ever building is your workbench, forget
>> about the jointer and borrow a hand plane from someone.
>>
>> If you plan on building cabinets or furniture, a jointer would be a
>> nice addition to your shop.
>>
>> For most people, a 6 inch jointer suffices.
>>
>> A used stanley #4, #5 and #7 would also suffice, albeit require a
>> learning curve.
>
> Thanks Scott. I've collected the planes at auction. I'll need to sharpen
> them and find something to hold the boards (not as easy as it sounds).
> I'm sure the whole process will give me a lot of joy--FAR MORE than I'd
> get by just pushing the boards through a jointer! ; )
>
> I'll still look for the number of that industrial sander...
For what is worth, I owned a jointer for decades and got rid of it
because of the lack of use. It took up valuable space. I personally
came out better buying better lumber to begin with.
On 4/14/2012 9:57 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:28:50 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
>> Case in point, I have my own form of fear appeal marketing in my shop. I
>> keep the remains of a glued up panel, that kicked back on the table saw late
>> one night, in clear view from my table saw. ;~)
>
> I don't keep mementos like that around, but I experienced one instance
> of a kick back in the chest that's always in the back of my mind.
> Using a tablesaw from a sitting position, I realized the potential for
> a kick back that could literally take my head off.
>
> It was that incident that prompted me to go looking for lowered table
> saws or possibly ones that I could lower without too much difficulty.
> The only cabinet saw I've found to date that meets that need is the
> General Access line of tools. That's the saw I'll buy the next time
> I'm ready to purchase.
Why don't you get a contractors saw, and build a bench to whatever
height you want? I think even SS sells a contractors saw, don't they?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:49:27 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
>> included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
>> selling fear as the only or key selling point.
>
> The fear of table saws, or the perception of that fear is what keeps
> many people from buying a table saw. That's one reason why the SawStop
> will sell and sell well, despite any of this mandate debate.
>
> The friend who I sold my contractors saw to, hates using it. He's
> afraid of it. He is fine with something like a circular saw, but the
> table saw scares him. I'm pretty sure he bought it from me because he
> liked the idea of owning a table saw, but as to using it? That's
> something else.
>
> The SawStop will bring out a whole new generation of woodworkers,
> people who would normally be sitting by the sidelines, wishing things
> were different. I'd bet on it.
Someone who is curious about ww, but afraid of TSs, could use hand
tools. The idea that the SS/technology will create "a whole new
generation of woodworkers" seems absurd unless you want 10 year olds
using table saws.
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
a new level of interest.
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:05:18 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I can't hear anything running with my shop vac, cause I have to wear
>> ear muffs or my ears bleed... I can run my chain saw w/o ear muffs,
>> and it is loud. My shop vac is not just loud, it actually hurts my
>> ears with the high pitched, piercing, screaming noise it makes.
>
> And yet, you refuse to admit that the noise from a job vac onsite
> wouldn't have an effect on customers. You really are a screwed up
> asshole.
Well, I think what he's saying is that some noises (such as a shop vac) are
expected by most customers, and not something that is going to be a deal
breaker. Kinda like the noise they expect from a hammer or a circular saw.
In the scheme of things, during any kind of a home remodel or repair, how
much do you think a customer really notices the noise (or lack of it) from a
shop vac?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:05:18 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>I can't hear anything running with my shop vac, cause I have to wear ear
>muffs or my ears bleed... I can run my chain saw w/o ear muffs, and it
>is loud. My shop vac is not just loud, it actually hurts my ears with
>the high pitched, piercing, screaming noise it makes.
And yet, you refuse to admit that the noise from a job vac onsite
wouldn't have an effect on customers. You really are a screwed up
asshole.
I'm sort of scared to make an off-topic post to this thread, but here goes:
When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
"near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
I have one.
What do you think? Plan for a jointer? I have collected hand planes,
but haven't learned to use them yet. Especially, I'm skeptical about my
ability to plane the edge of a 7' board *flat*.
Bill
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> I'm sort of scared to make an off-topic post to this thread, but here
>> goes:
>
> Well - then don't! You raise a perfectly legitimate question below - why
> not just start a new thread and not have anything to worry about?
>
>>
>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>
>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as
>> my pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers,
>
> How so?
I have a much better idea of what jointers have to offer now, and I've
seen I lot of imperfect lumber since I started. I'm concerned glueing
together 16 pieces of imperfect lumber is likely to create
unconscionable problems! : ) Glueing together 16 pieces of
freshly-jointed lumber seems more likely to produce an near-level
surface and well-glued joints that won't come apart. Dig?
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> I'm sort of scared to make an off-topic post to this thread, but
>>>> here goes:
>>>
>>> Well - then don't! You raise a perfectly legitimate question below
>>> - why not just start a new thread and not have anything to worry
>>> about?
>>>>
>>>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>>>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>>>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>>>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>>>
>>>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice
>>>> as my pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers,
>>>
>>> How so?
>>
>> I have a much better idea of what jointers have to offer now, and I've
>> seen I lot of imperfect lumber since I started. I'm concerned glueing
>> together 16 pieces of imperfect lumber is likely to create
>> unconscionable problems! : ) Glueing together 16 pieces of
>> freshly-jointed lumber seems more likely to produce an near-level
>> surface and well-glued joints that won't come apart. Dig?
>
> Have you ever run a piece of lumber across a jointer? Dig?
>
I think the teach did my board for me. But that was about 30 years ago
and I don't know where he is now. Other things being the same, I'd
prefer nice surfaces on the furniture I'm going to make. My wife and I
are getting-by with two folding chairs until I produce! I suggested
mounting my new vise on the back of hers, but she objected. ; )
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Maybe I should back off Bill. My intent is really not to put you on the
> spot. My intent is genuinely to encourage you to do it. I do that because
> I honestly believe you will learn and gain confidence, and develop skills,
> and be thrilled at the results - even if they are not quite to your initial
> expectiations - at first. But, doing it will refine those skills and your
> products will increasingly get closer to those noble ambitions you hold.
Who's building any products?
I'll be making "Custom-made, one-of-a-kind, works of art....".
At least that's what the business cards say (j/k). : )
I
> think that once you just do ti (I guess I use that phrase too much...),
> you'll hit the point where you start to enjoy those noble ambitions - and
> then we start to really feel good!
Who's not enjoying noble ambitions?
I had my sights set on a 1830's Boucher-style banjo and/or fiddle!
My interest seems to have shifted from the latter back to the former.
An interest in fiddle-making, in particular the scroll, forked-off into
an "extensive investigation" of relief-carving.
If I felt much better it might not be safe for me to operate vehicles
and/or machinery.
In the meantime I've been learning to sharpen--the queen subdiscipline
of using hand tools.
>
> Sorry if I have been coming on too hard.
Naw, I got a few laughs writing the above. I know Murphy's Law.
On 4/14/2012 7:44 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:49:27 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
>> included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
>> selling fear as the only or key selling point.
>
> The fear of table saws, or the perception of that fear is what keeps
> many people from buying a table saw. That's one reason why the SawStop
> will sell and sell well, despite any of this mandate debate.
>
> The friend who I sold my contractors saw to, hates using it. He's
> afraid of it. He is fine with something like a circular saw, but the
> table saw scares him. I'm pretty sure he bought it from me because he
> liked the idea of owning a table saw, but as to using it? That's
> something else.
>
> The SawStop will bring out a whole new generation of woodworkers,
> people who would normally be sitting by the sidelines, wishing things
> were different. I'd bet on it.
I'd bet you would lose. I'd bet most people don't own a table saw
because they can't tie their own shoes and/or are not interested in WW,
or have no place to do WW and hate all the dust anyway. Likely few on
earth don't own a table saw because they're scared.
Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
interested most in SS tech.
If you ever used a step ladder, a chainsaw, a body grinder, or even a
hatchet/Ax you probably already used tools as, or more dangerous than a
table saw.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/14/2012 8:02 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:49:27 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
>>> included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
>>> selling fear as the only or key selling point.
>>
>> The fear of table saws, or the perception of that fear is what keeps
>> many people from buying a table saw. That's one reason why the SawStop
>> will sell and sell well, despite any of this mandate debate.
>
> Perhaps so, though my experiences with other people has been different.
Yeah, me too.
> I've never encountered anyone who was afraid of a table saw - or at least,
> it never came out in any conversations. To the contrary, I have met a good
> number of people who I feared for, when using a table saw. Mostly those who
> just don't pay attention to anything, and you just know that at some point,
> something bad is going to happen. Maybe not real bad - or maybe real bad...
> but something that they wish had not happened.
Yeah, someone posted a video of a guy using a router table with his
fing-ees needlessly close to the cutter, and using some not very safe
techniques. I felt the fear you speak of for him when watching him, but
then he appeared to be more than a novice, and had all his fing-ees, so
all he gets from me is one raised eyebrow.
I remember my BIL who was a lifetime carpenter cutting shim wedges out
of a 6 inch 2x4 held in his hand, with a giant circular saw. I said
Frank, are you nuts, your gunna whack a fing-ee? He laughed and said,
yeah, been nuts for the past 50 years, when do you think this will
happen? Well he's retired now with two fake knees, but has all his
fing-ees.
He still gets one raised eyebrow from me, but hard to argue with a
lifetime of success.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/14/2012 8:13 PM, Bill wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> The SawStop will bring out a whole new generation of woodworkers,
>> people who would normally be sitting by the sidelines, wishing things
>> were different. I'd bet on it.
>
> Someone who is curious about ww, but afraid of TSs, could use hand
> tools. The idea that the SS/technology will create "a whole new
> generation of woodworkers" seems absurd unless you want 10 year olds
> using table saws.
I've never even nicked myself using a power tool, but have whacked
myself many times using hand tools. Hand tools are simply dangerous and
Big Brother should do something about it...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/14/2012 10:43 PM, Bill wrote:
> I have a much better idea of what jointers have to offer now, and I've
> seen I lot of imperfect lumber since I started. I'm concerned glueing
> together 16 pieces of imperfect lumber is likely to create
> unconscionable problems! : ) Glueing together 16 pieces of
> freshly-jointed lumber seems more likely to produce an near-level
> surface and well-glued joints that won't come apart. Dig?
When I first started seriously into woodworking, the very first thing I
made was a workbench. Made some mistakes, and the top I made from 2x4
construction lumber I cut in half because I wanted it to look like
Butcher block. I drilled holes through each piece and glued and bolted
them together with all thread, not knowing that glue would have
sufficed. I finished the top with a large belt sander, as it was uneven
as all get out. When done, the thing waved at me like a drunk flagging
down a taxi. I figured I'd someday replace the top when I figured out
how to make one perfectly flat. That was a very, very long time ago and
I still have the bench with all it's flaws, never replaced the top, and
now the top has many, many years of use showing, and you would have to
kill me to get it off of me. I love the damn thing.
I might be able to get it flatter today, but it would not be easy. Had I
waited around until I had all the knowledge and skills needed to build
the thing perfect, I'd still be thinking about it, sans any skills I may
have acquired.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Bill wrote:
> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>
> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
> pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
> "near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
> top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
> boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
> can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
> boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
> I have one.
> Bill
Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?
Bill
Puckdropper wrote:
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>>
>> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
>> this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>>
>> With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
>> "Ney". Any "Ayes"?
>>
>> Bill
>
> After I bought my jointer, it sat in the box for a couple months before I
> got around to using it. It's just not that critical of tool for general
> woodworking. If you're working with rough wood, a jointer can be an
> excellent tool. Borg 2x4s, reasonably selected, not so much.
>
> If you want to buy a jointer, buy a jointer. It's one of those "last
> mile" type tools that extends what you can do with wood, but it doesn't
> really do anything special like a planer.
>
> Puckdropper
I basically agree with you on 2by4s Puck. It was either DadiOH or the
gentleman from NC (stuart?) who said something to the effect that you
can't expect a board to be dimensioned unless you made it that way. One
would want the top of a piece of furniture to be true. Of course, that
doesn't mean an 8inch jointer is required.
On 4/16/2012 11:15 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
>> this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>
> If the only thing you plan on ever building is your workbench, forget
> about the jointer and borrow a hand plane from someone.
>
> If you plan on building cabinets or furniture, a jointer would be a
> nice addition to your shop.
>
> For most people, a 6 inch jointer suffices.
>
> A used stanley #4, #5 and #7 would also suffice, albeit require a
> learning curve.
Thanks Scott. I've collected the planes at auction. I'll need to sharpen
them and find something to hold the boards (not as easy as it sounds).
I'm sure the whole process will give me a lot of joy--FAR MORE than I'd
get by just pushing the boards through a jointer! ; )
I'll still look for the number of that industrial sander...
On 4/15/2012 9:44 PM, Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>
>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
>> pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
>> "near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
>> top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
>> boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
>> can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
>> boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
>> I have one.
>
>> Bill
>
>
> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
> this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>
> With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
> "Ney". Any "Ayes"?
"Belt sander" Jack used a jointer, then used a belt sander, and it still
waved at him. A novice Jointing 8' cut in half 2x4 construction lumber
is not likely to go all that well, but the experience is a learning one.
If you glue up 2x6's or 2x10's ripped in half, (I'd go with 2x6's
because you know what they look like when you start, a 2x10 ripped in
half may or may not be good after ripping.) Lay them face up, number
each joint and joint them even in, odd out against the fence. This at
least guarantees square joints, regardless of how perfect your fence
might be. If your wood is perfect, as in quarter sawn, you will be
fine, but that is unlikely, and the grain will determine what happens
after glue up. Since you have a planer, you can run the glue ups
through the planer in sections that fit the planer. Still, the grain
will determine how good the top will turn out. If you alternate the
grain, it will wave at you if it cups, if you don't the whole thing will
cup (bow).
Neither is all that good, and the books will tell you to alternate the
grain, but mainly, quarter sawn is tits, everything else, less so. If
you want perfection, you probably don't want a solid wood top, much
easier to make a perfect top out of a veneered torsion box. I'm not
that much of a perfectionist.
My top is far, far from perfect, and I love it, cause I made it, it
looks better than manufactured wood tops (particle board, Masonite etc),
and is good enough, even better because I never worried about messing up
a "perfect" top, and interestingly, all those years of "wear marks"
represent a lifetime of work, nice to look at, waves, dents, and all.
Oh, a large top like this would be a good place for the Festool Domino
for alignment purposes, I would think. I use cauls and get by OK.
Biscuits are absolutely not needed for strength, nor are all threads
like I used... Live and learn:-)
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/15/2012 9:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer
>> for this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>>
>> With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
>> "Ney". Any "Ayes"?
> --------------------------------------
> A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
> drum sander is another matter.
Really? It's exactly where a jointer gets it's name? You could get by
w/o one perhaps, but it's place is locked in history...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Jack wrote:
>
> On 4/15/2012 9:44 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>>
>>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
>>> pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
>>> "near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
>>> top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
>>> boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
>>> can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
>>> boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
>>> I have one.
>>
>>> Bill
>>
>>
>> Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
>> this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
>>
>> With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
>> "Ney". Any "Ayes"?
>
> "Belt sander" Jack used a jointer, then used a belt sander, and it still
> waved at him. A novice Jointing 8' cut in half 2x4 construction lumber
> is not likely to go all that well, but the experience is a learning one.
>
> If you glue up 2x6's or 2x10's ripped in half, (I'd go with 2x6's
> because you know what they look like when you start, a 2x10 ripped in
> half may or may not be good after ripping.)
Jack, The argument seems to be that, in general they cut the 2x10s from
better wood. I found your post interesting. Thanks!
As far as flatness, I don't want my work to "wobble" on the
bench--especially if I'm doing woodcarving. Of course, I could always
put down a veneer, and I may anyway, but it would be nice if the surface
was basically sort-of-flat to begin with.
Cheers,
Bill
Lay them face up, number
> each joint and joint them even in, odd out against the fence. This at
> least guarantees square joints, regardless of how perfect your fence
> might be. If your wood is perfect, as in quarter sawn, you will be fine,
> but that is unlikely, and the grain will determine what happens after
> glue up. Since you have a planer, you can run the glue ups through the
> planer in sections that fit the planer. Still, the grain will determine
> how good the top will turn out. If you alternate the grain, it will wave
> at you if it cups, if you don't the whole thing will cup (bow).
>
> Neither is all that good, and the books will tell you to alternate the
> grain, but mainly, quarter sawn is tits, everything else, less so. If
> you want perfection, you probably don't want a solid wood top, much
> easier to make a perfect top out of a veneered torsion box. I'm not that
> much of a perfectionist.
Bill <[email protected]> writes:
>Bill wrote:
>
>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>
>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
>> pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
>> "near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
>> top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
>> boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
>> can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
>> boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
>> I have one.
>
>> Bill
>
>
>Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
>this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?
If the only thing you plan on ever building is your workbench, forget
about the jointer and borrow a hand plane from someone.
If you plan on building cabinets or furniture, a jointer would be a
nice addition to your shop.
For most people, a 6 inch jointer suffices.
A used stanley #4, #5 and #7 would also suffice, albeit require a
learning curve.
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:49:27 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
>included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
>selling fear as the only or key selling point.
The fear of table saws, or the perception of that fear is what keeps
many people from buying a table saw. That's one reason why the SawStop
will sell and sell well, despite any of this mandate debate.
The friend who I sold my contractors saw to, hates using it. He's
afraid of it. He is fine with something like a circular saw, but the
table saw scares him. I'm pretty sure he bought it from me because he
liked the idea of owning a table saw, but as to using it? That's
something else.
The SawStop will bring out a whole new generation of woodworkers,
people who would normally be sitting by the sidelines, wishing things
were different. I'd bet on it.
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:10:05 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>Admitedly, I am not very familiar with the Domino, so maybe there is
>something strangely unique about it that inspires people today.
All I can say, is to try it out. But, I have to warn you. Once you see
what a Domino can do and how accurately it does what it does, you'll
have to have one. In the past six months, I sold off a biscuit jointer
with a box of 2000 biscuits and a really decent Record doweling jig. I
held onto them for a year after I bought the Domino, but in the end,
they had to go.
>that's a lot different than a vacuum that is a little quieter, which I
>believe is where this all started. If Domino is unique, then great - it's a
>cool marketing tool for as long as that fad lasts. As for a vacuum... it
>may be a great vacuum and I have not suggested otherwise. I only questioned
>the statements that it would be perceived as a great value by the customer.
Ok, I'll give you that. After all, a vacuum is a vacuum. But, now you
get the old fart comments.
As I've gotten older, even though my hearing is starting to go,
excessive noise bugs the hell out of me. I certainly can't compare the
woodworking I do to Leon and Swingman, so I don't experience the same
conditions they do. But, and it's a big but, I do understand the
ultimate benefits to the Festool vacs.
Until I eventually find a workshop to share and/or rent, I work off
the workbench in my living room. MY CT22 Festool vac lets me work
there cleaner and quieter. I can't ask for more than that.
Sure, I've owned my share of screaming shop vacs that did the job.
But, I'm an old fart now, and quality *and* capability is my main one
concern.
Dave wrote:
> Ok, I'll give you that. After all, a vacuum is a vacuum. But, now you
> get the old fart comments.
>
> As I've gotten older, even though my hearing is starting to go,
> excessive noise bugs the hell out of me. I certainly can't compare the
> woodworking I do to Leon and Swingman, so I don't experience the same
> conditions they do. But, and it's a big but, I do understand the
> ultimate benefits to the Festool vacs.
>
> Until I eventually find a workshop to share and/or rent, I work off
> the workbench in my living room. MY CT22 Festool vac lets me work
> there cleaner and quieter. I can't ask for more than that.
>
> Sure, I've owned my share of screaming shop vacs that did the job.
> But, I'm an old fart now, and quality *and* capability is my main one
> concern.
I get your point Dave. For me it's still a little different, because most
of what I do is in my garage where noise is not perceived as such an issuel
I did buy a Rigid shop vac to replace my Sears screamer, and I sure do
appreciate the reduced dB level of it. But - and (to use your words...)
it's a big Butt, that's just where I am now. In my garage, I am used to
high level of noise, so any decrease is a good thing, but ear protection is
still the order of the day for me if the noise is too loud. All that says
is that I do not appreciate quiet the way the you or others may appreciate
it. I can live with noise because that's what I'm used to. Damn - if I
experience less noise, I may just start demanding it...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:09:01 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/16/2012 9:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:16 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>>>>>>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>>>>>>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>>>>>> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>>>>>> level is about the same: quiet.
>>>>>
>>>>> My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
>>>>> Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
>>>>> Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
>>>>> dust which I do not see.
>>>>
>>>> You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
>>>> 1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
>>>> out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
>>>>
>>>> Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
>>>> other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
>>>> the next room, or possibly in the same room.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
>>>>> vac running.
>>>>
>>>> Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.<shrug>
>>>
>>> I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
>>> customers house....
>>>
>>
>>> And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
>>> things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
>>> out of the question. Time is money.
>>
>> Jesus H. Christ! OK, for your diminished reading capacity, see the
>> pretty pictures of the style of _portable_ DCs to which I referred:
>> http://tinyurl.com/6txsmpc
>> http://tinyurl.com/6t8cn84
>> http://tinyurl.com/7aovct9
>> I guess they're no longer $100. ;)
>
>FOR YOUR diminished read capacity... you asked,
>
>What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>level is about the same: quiet.
>
>
>You asked why I am not using MY DC..
>
>I gave my answer and then you think I suggest to buy a 3rd dust
>collection machine when I have everything I need already!!!
No, I asked why you -didn't- go the other route.
>If you could stay focused as to what you ask and apply my answers to
>YOUR SPECIFIC questions you might learn something.
>
>Bun nooooo I guess you just like to be contrary.
Great minds think alike. I was just thinking the exact same thing of
you. <g>
--
You can either hold yourself up to the unrealistic standards of others,
or ignore them and concentrate on being happy with yourself as you are.
-- Jeph Jacques
It won't. Unless you use clamping cauls to create a level surface, you
will be off by enough to look like a wash board.
Handplane across the top to initially level, then diagonally.
Use winding sticks.
Finish with a jack or jointer, and use a scraper for any difficult wood
grain... I had a maple top that had all sorts of nasty areas. I put a
very high angle on my jack and was still unable to tame the nasty maple.
#80 Scraper to the rescue...
On 4/14/2012 10:43 PM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> I'm sort of scared to make an off-topic post to this thread, but here
>>> goes:
>>
>> Well - then don't! You raise a perfectly legitimate question below - why
>> not just start a new thread and not have anything to worry about?
>>
>>>
>>> When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
>>> interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
>>> making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
>>> bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).
>>>
>>> Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as
>>> my pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers,
>>
>> How so?
>
> I have a much better idea of what jointers have to offer now, and I've
> seen I lot of imperfect lumber since I started. I'm concerned glueing
> together 16 pieces of imperfect lumber is likely to create
> unconscionable problems! : ) Glueing together 16 pieces of
> freshly-jointed lumber seems more likely to produce an near-level
> surface and well-glued joints that won't come apart. Dig?
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:28:50 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
>Case in point, I have my own form of fear appeal marketing in my shop. I
>keep the remains of a glued up panel, that kicked back on the table saw late
>one night, in clear view from my table saw. ;~)
I don't keep mementos like that around, but I experienced one instance
of a kick back in the chest that's always in the back of my mind.
Using a tablesaw from a sitting position, I realized the potential for
a kick back that could literally take my head off.
It was that incident that prompted me to go looking for lowered table
saws or possibly ones that I could lower without too much difficulty.
The only cabinet saw I've found to date that meets that need is the
General Access line of tools. That's the saw I'll buy the next time
I'm ready to purchase.
On 4/11/2012 11:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
>>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>>>>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>>>>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>>>>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>>>>
>>>> What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
>>>> your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
>>>> throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
>>> directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
>>> that may or may not "force" that saw on us.
>>>
>>
>> Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop.
>
> True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
> way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
> much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
> chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology. And for
> them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
> with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
> it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
>
>
>> Don't tell him about
>> seat belts, the odor added to natural gas, or unleaded fuel.
>
> Au contraire, mon ami. I have happily worn seatbelts since owning my
> first car, a '57 Chebby Bel Air, in 1969. Dad mandated it and I
> thought it was a good idea from the getgo. I have no problem with
> odorants in the gas, either, as it saves lives and costs very little.
>
> But unleaded fuel got my goat several times. I used to have a
> California smog license and had to install vapor injectors per the
> CARB (CA Air Resources Board). I watched the devices kill perfectly
> good engines when their owners forgot to add water to them, and I saw
> the number of engines needing overhauls increase dramatically from the
> lack of padding lead in the fuel. I also read about the goodness
> coming from it, so that was a love/hate relationship, too. Sest lavvy,
> wot? (Translation for Leon: C'est la vie, oui?, or That's Life, eh?)
>
True, and that's because the lead was the lubricant for the valves and
the like. But that has changed when the car companies changed gears to
accomodate the unleaded.
>
>> And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
>> technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
>> are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
>
> For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
> attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
> to what our United States Gov't means to me.
>
>
>> I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>> regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>> saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>> to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
>
> A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
> That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
>
>
>> We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
>> have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
>> buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
>> homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
>> sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
>> power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.
>>
>> This is no different.
>
> Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
> us now, thanks to SS.
>
> --
> Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
> wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
> -- Henry George
"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>"Jack" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
>>>> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:495c6$4f85bad8
>>>> [email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
>>>> patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has
>>>> the
>>>> right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question
>>>> that
>>>> litigation should clarify.
>>>
>>> For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
>>> cents or 2 trillion, whatever.
>>
>>In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
>>fees would kill the market,
>
> There is no regulatory mandate.
It was a hypothetical... the wording seems pretty clear in that regard.
> If the regulatory mandate is added, then Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory
> (RAND) license rates are required.
Not likely that would apply to state level regulation.... which is where
action may likely take place before Federal. Kind of like the mess the auto
manufacturers face in regards to emissions standards at the state level.
I should have included the possibilty that firms would simply withdraw from
various markets the way gun manufacturers have choosen to at times... If the
ROI isn't worth the effort they should be smart enough to walk away.
Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
>>technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
>>are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
>
> Well, if such a law makes its way up to Canada, I'll be asking for a
> medical exemption. When I next buy a table saw, I'd buy a SawStop, but
> they don't make a lowered version to use from a sitting position. So,
> it's a General Access version I'd be buying.
>
> I contacted SawStop and inquired if their saws could be lowered, but
> they told me their saws had too many mechanics to allow for that
> possibility.
Dave, when it gets near the time for you to buy a tablesaw, we should set
up a petition on FB to get you the version you want. Those petition things
seem to be doing the job of putting pressure on companies, if so justified
of course, which is definitely true in your case!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
[email protected]:
Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question that
litigation should clarify. License fees are supposed to be reasonable. I
was flabbergasted that the Ryobi lawsuit was so successful up through the
appellate stage. That shouldn't have happened, IMNSHO.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> "Han" wrote
>>
>> Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer
>><snip>
>> License fees are supposed to be reasonable.
>
> An oxymoron. Nothing about lawyers are reasonable.
Sorry, Lee, I distinctly recall that there is a need for reasonable and
something else (it is called RAND or equivalent) IF (and that is important)
the patentee is forcing manufacturers to use his patents. And being a
patent lawyer, he has that sown up. There appears very little if any
leeway around his patents if he can get the product safety commission to
rule in his favor.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
> [email protected]:
>
>
> Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
> patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
> right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question that
> litigation should clarify.
For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
cents or 2 trillion, whatever.
License fees are supposed to be reasonable.
Only if you live in one of the fine, socialists countries of the world.
I doubt our communist president would have any trouble forcing him to
charge a reasonable amount, say 5, or 20 grand, or forcing Leon to dump
his POS dangerous saw and buy a government approved SS. Well, when I
say "no trouble" I meant AFTER he is reelected the leader of the USSA.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 11:55 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...
> So, here's the thought that keeps coming back to me... (and mind you - I
> have no more insight into this than you, so we're both really dealing in the
> realm of speculation). I'm wondering how much the legal department got into
> the mix and screwed up any possible deals - moreso than any economic issues.
> Lawyers are notorious for not wanting to admit any current or past
> liabilities - even beyond what would make sense to you and I. I wonder how
> much Ryobi's and every other manufacturer's legal departments agreed that
> there was too much legal exposure if they embraced this technology. Price
> may also have been an issue, but I just keep wondering if it wasn't more
> than just price.
...
FWW had an article several years ago in which they interviewed Gass and
he told his side, anyway, of the negotiations. It seems like none of
the manufacturers would open up to an actual rebuttal interview but were
some generic statements quoted as best I recall.
It's been so long ago I'm not even going to try to reconstruct, but
afaik that's the only place outside of whatever transpired during the
Ryobi trials that there's any real discussion of the behind-the-scenes
events. Any/everything else I've seen has been no more than this
conversation--speculation only.
While I'm not going to try to recreate the gist, certainly liability
issues were in there as well as the terms Gass wanted were onerous from
their viewpoints and there was an issue of competitive position, etc,
etc, etc., ... that all weighed in.
Again, I'm like some many others--Gass had/has a good idea; my problem
is w/ his attempt to force its acceptance to line his own pocket.
Clearly, while some desire to produce a positive impact was there, there
real driving force was the money or he would have been satisfied to
simply manufacture and win or lose on the products' merit. Instead he
wants to have his cake and eat it, too...and how dirty his/Sawstop's
corporate hands are in pushing the Ryobi litigation I've no idea but
somebody had to be the ambulance chaser and I suspect it's a good chance
we know who sic'ed 'em on 'em...
--
In article <[email protected]>
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Jack" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
>>> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
>>> patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
>>> right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question
>>> that
>>> litigation should clarify.
>>
>> For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
>> cents or 2 trillion, whatever.
>
>In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
>fees would kill the market,
There is no regulatory mandate.
If the regulatory mandate is added, then Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory
(RAND) license rates are required.
--
Drew Lawson | It's not enough to be alive
| when your future's been deferred
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
>technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
>are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
Well, if such a law makes its way up to Canada, I'll be asking for a
medical exemption. When I next buy a table saw, I'd buy a SawStop, but
they don't make a lowered version to use from a sitting position. So,
it's a General Access version I'd be buying.
I contacted SawStop and inquired if their saws could be lowered, but
they told me their saws had too many mechanics to allow for that
possibility.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>>>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>>>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>>>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>>>
>>> What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
>>> your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
>>> throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
>> <snip>
>>
>> Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
>> directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
>> that may or may not "force" that saw on us.
>>
>
>Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop.
True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology. And for
them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
>Don't tell him about
>seat belts, the odor added to natural gas, or unleaded fuel.
Au contraire, mon ami. I have happily worn seatbelts since owning my
first car, a '57 Chebby Bel Air, in 1969. Dad mandated it and I
thought it was a good idea from the getgo. I have no problem with
odorants in the gas, either, as it saves lives and costs very little.
But unleaded fuel got my goat several times. I used to have a
California smog license and had to install vapor injectors per the
CARB (CA Air Resources Board). I watched the devices kill perfectly
good engines when their owners forgot to add water to them, and I saw
the number of engines needing overhauls increase dramatically from the
lack of padding lead in the fuel. I also read about the goodness
coming from it, so that was a love/hate relationship, too. Sest lavvy,
wot? (Translation for Leon: C'est la vie, oui?, or That's Life, eh?)
>And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
>technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
>are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
to what our United States Gov't means to me.
>I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
>We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
>have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
>buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
>homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
>sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
>power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.
>
> This is no different.
Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
us now, thanks to SS.
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:02:37 -0400, "Morgans" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> **********************************************************
>> Let me know when they start making one with at least a 12" blade and
>> a motor that is available in 208 volts, and an honest 5 HP.
>>
>> -- Jim in NC
>
>Huh?
>************************************************************
>
>Break it down piece by piece.
>I teach carpentry in NC public schools.
>The state has equipment minimum standards.
>It specifies the table saw to be at least 12".
>The school has 3 phase power, and all of the single phase power is 208
>volts. A 240 volt saw sucks running at 208 volts. It is weak, heats up the
>motor and the overload heaters in the magnetic starter way faster than they
>would if the voltage was correct.
>We frequently run the saw in an industrial manner, so it is my requirement
>to be able to rip green 4 x 4 and bigger or hardwood 4 x 4 and bigger. I
>like to have 5 HP to do that with power to spare, for long periods of time.
>
>-- Jim in NC
>
>
Have a buck boost transformer installed and you'll have 240 volts.
Mike M
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:17:43 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
>a market used to paying high prices, demanding a quality product and
>generally safety conscious. I think he is missing the boat on this
>particular market.
You're kidding right? Give him time. You'll see a commercial version
eventually, He had to start somewhere.
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:06:53 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>First off, you are the first person that I have heard mention that the
>new Unisaw is equally well built. I know of no one that has been
>impress with the new Unisaw. Over all the SawStop is a better thought
>out and saw.
Hatred and emotions can warp even the most logical viewpoint.
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:06:53 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/13/2012 11:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:10:52 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>>>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>>>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but to deny
>>> that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw, and that it
>>> does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is nothing short of
>>> foolish. That saw began selling well before he tried his tactics with the
>>> Consumer Product Safety Commission. That alone is proof that the saw is
>>> selling on its own merits. Your personal feelings toward Gass are clouding
>>> your judgement.
>>
>> If the equally well built Unisaw is not selling well, at the same
>> price, with its longstanding good reputation, what makes the
>> difference? I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
>> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
>
>First off, you are the first person that I have heard mention that the
>new Unisaw is equally well built. I know of no one that has been
>impress with the new Unisaw. Over all the SawStop is a better thought
>out and saw.
I thought that since everyone and their brother here had always
drooled over Unisaurs that they were just peachy. They're equally
overpriced, so they should be well built. If they're not, so be it. I
really don't care. Enjoy your SS in good health, Leon.
--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour
"Morgans" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Have a buck boost transformer installed and you'll have 240 volts.
*******************************************
Had not seen one of those before.
It really does not cost much (Thanks)
-- Jim in NC
*******************************************
Gads, that didn't post anything near what I wrote! I wonder what I did?
What I originally had down was:
Had not seen one of those before.
It really does not cost much (or any) more to get a machine in 208 Volt
instead of 240.
And I learned something new today. (thanks)
-- Jim in NC
"Jack" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>
>> Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
>> patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
>> right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question
>> that
>> litigation should clarify.
>
> For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
> cents or 2 trillion, whatever.
In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
fees would kill the market, and at what point they would drive up the prices
of used table saws of all ilk to satisfy market demand. He could all but put
himself out of business if he chooses his pricing wrongly given the huge
volumes of used equipment out there, and the fact that existing inventories
could be rebuilt nearly indefinitely as witnessed by the many old Unisaws.
The market will to a large degree constrain his choices. Something to
ponder...
John
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 4/11/2012 11:55 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> ...
>
>> So, here's the thought that keeps coming back to me... (and mind you - I
>> have no more insight into this than you, so we're both really dealing in
>> the
>> realm of speculation). I'm wondering how much the legal department got
>> into
>> the mix and screwed up any possible deals - moreso than any economic
>> issues.
>> Lawyers are notorious for not wanting to admit any current or past
>> liabilities - even beyond what would make sense to you and I. I wonder
>> how
>> much Ryobi's and every other manufacturer's legal departments agreed that
>> there was too much legal exposure if they embraced this technology.
>> Price
>> may also have been an issue, but I just keep wondering if it wasn't more
>> than just price.
> ...
>
> FWW had an article several years ago in which they interviewed Gass and he
> told his side, anyway, of the negotiations. It seems like none of the
> manufacturers would open up to an actual rebuttal interview but were some
> generic statements quoted as best I recall.
>
> It's been so long ago I'm not even going to try to reconstruct, but afaik
> that's the only place outside of whatever transpired during the Ryobi
> trials that there's any real discussion of the behind-the-scenes events.
> Any/everything else I've seen has been no more than this
> conversation--speculation only.
>
> While I'm not going to try to recreate the gist, certainly liability
> issues were in there as well as the terms Gass wanted were onerous from
> their viewpoints and there was an issue of competitive position, etc, etc,
> etc., ... that all weighed in.
>
> Again, I'm like some many others--Gass had/has a good idea; my problem is
> w/ his attempt to force its acceptance to line his own pocket. Clearly,
> while some desire to produce a positive impact was there, there real
> driving force was the money or he would have been satisfied to simply
> manufacture and win or lose on the products' merit. Instead he wants to
> have his cake and eat it, too...and how dirty his/Sawstop's corporate
> hands are in pushing the Ryobi litigation I've no idea but somebody had to
> be the ambulance chaser and I suspect it's a good chance we know who
> sic'ed 'em on 'em...
Over dinner a while back one of the expert consultants who worked on the
defense side of the Ryobi case gave some insight. He spoke in ways that made
me think that none of the manufacturers thought the case stood a chance of
succeeding given all the problems with the contractor's training, the
worker's actions, removal of the fence, etc. As such the tactics the defense
used focused on those issues to a large degree and much less on the
realities of the Saw Stop technology. I'm inclined to chalk this up to a
group think problem... they underestimated their opponent and over estimated
the wisdom of the jury... I'm not sure I would have done it different... it
all sounded very reasonable to those of us at the table (skilled and
professional woodworkers/teachers/writers/editors).
On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Han" wrote
>>
>> Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer
>> <snip>
>> License fees are supposed to be reasonable.
>
> An oxymoron. Nothing about lawyers are reasonable.
ALL lawyers have a singular business model ... to game the legal system.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.
On 4/10/2012 10:12 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 4:31 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
>> I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff
>> (since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not been able
>> to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.
>
>
> Laying flat on a solid flat surface is best. HD tends to balance plywood
> on two forks, laying sorta flat.
>
"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pointing up at the above answers:
>
> Well, I guess this answers the question of where to buy
> commercial jointers and planers
That easy... A LOT of nice stuff has been coming through on Craigs List the
past few years. ;~)
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 07:59:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>And for what it is worth the combination jointer/planer is beginning to
>be more common place. It is typically less expensive than buying a
>stationary jointer and stationary planer and takes up half the room.
>http://www.amazon.com/JET-JJP-12-12-Inch-Jointer-Planer/dp/B0011TKF8G/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1333889764&sr=8-25
No, no no. We have to go with quality here.
http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/jointerplaners/jointer-planer-a3-41--410-mm.html
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:58:38 -0700, Pat Barber <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Pointing up at the above answers:
>
>Well, I guess this answers the question of where to buy
>commercial jointers and planers
You're || -that- close, Pat!
The real answer is either 42 or Amazon/eBay/HD/HFT, but only after
you've checked http://www.toolseeker.com/ to get a good idea.
--
Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.
-- Matthew Arnold
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:41:39 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> under 60 (barely)
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
>>>> the late '50s.
>>>>
>>>> Known as "gas wars".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
>>> filling up my car for $2.
>>
>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>
>So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
>to be in 1970`1972.
>A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
>now about $40k
I found an exceedingly good value in my $26k Toyota Tundra.
>I guarantee you that if an alternative fuel that we have to purchase
>replaces petroleum based products we will be paying more for the same
>amount of energy. If this was not true we would have switched decades
>ago. Oil is way too plentiful to be expensive, relatively.
Oh, absolutely, the alt fuels will be more expensive. The have gov't
built into them via subsidies. Subsidies which should not be there.
That's how corn-produced ethanol got its stranglehold on us. Sheeit!
>If electric cars become mainstream demand will increase and our
>electricity rates will surely increase, and not just the amount of extra
>usage but for the same reason oil prices increase.
And watch the oil companies rush to fracking the entire mainland US,
ruining all groundwater in the process, to meet the new demands on
electricity. I believe that over half of Americans could put good use
to an electric car.
>Just wait until some one comes up with a way to measure every breath you
>take...
It'll happen in space before it does here, I reckon. 'Course, I'm
still waiting for The Cull to happen. Once the sheeple stampede,
gov't will start taking a back seat. We're in for scary times ahead.
The question will be: From whom? Gov't or the people?
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On Apr 7, 2:08=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. =A0It seems th=
at all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are ab=
out 12". =A0What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
> I must be missing something obvious... =A0help a rookie out?
>
> Thanks!
Theoretically jointers and planers serve two different purposes - but
not entirely.
- Primary purpose for a jointer is to edge plane boards to provide a
good straight glue-able edge - thus "jointer". But Jointers are also
used to plane one surface to obtain a flat face before it us run
through a planer (if you have one)
- Planers surface plane and provide parallel surfaces. They are also
very useful for smoothing boards that have been edge-glued.
The thing you need to keep in mind is when making large flat surfaces
for table tops, book case tops etc., where you are using lumber
instead of hardwood ply, you need to keep boards narrower. I often
cut nice, 10-12" wide boards into 5-6" strips so I can reverse the
growth rings and glue them back together. A nice, wide board looks
pretty until it starts to warp and cup - or even split because it is
restrained from cupping. Cutting into smaller strips and reversing
the growth rings slows this down. So, with that in mind, a 6" jointer
can surface plane one side of a ripped board and provide a joint-able
edge; then the 12-1/2 planer can surface plane the glued boards.
You can pay any price for "portable' surface planer but don't skimp
too much. I see some in the big box stores that don't even have
infeed and outfeed tables. Most of these are Ryobi equipment which is
a shame. Ryobi came out, during the 1990's with a couple of the best
suitcase planers ever built. their 10" and 12-1/4" inch machines
became almost legendary for quality, smoothness and durability. I
owned the latter for 15 years when I turned it over to the son and
upgraded in size. Apparently Ryobi adopted the Craftsman business
model because it has been down hill since the late 90's. Shop
carefully and use on-line reviews before you end up buying a bargain
that will frustrate you for as long as you own the machine.
RonB
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:44:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/9/2012 2:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 12:24:04 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/9/2012 11:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>>>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>>>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>>>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>>>>
>>>>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>>>>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>>>>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>>>>> mentality.
>>>>
>>>> I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
>>>> luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
>>>> that's common to pricy tools, too.
>>>>
>>>> I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
>>>> prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book.<g>
>>>
>>> You reallllly don't believe that do you???
>>
>> I most certainly do. I've stalled it when a piece of ply slipped as I
>> fed it through. It didn't have the guts to kick it back. On smaller
>> items, though, I'd be less cavalier. ;)
>
>You apparently don't know what kick back is. I have had kick back with
>1 hp saws that stalled easily. Stalling a blade is not anywhere near
>kick back.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I bow to your (half?) vast
storehouse of knowledge, sir. I've had only one kicked-back piece
stick into the door in my mere minutes as a woodworker. <sigh>
--
Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.
-- Matthew Arnold
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:24:10 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool. If Festool was as
disreputable as you seem to think, I doubt Lee Valley Tools would be
selling their products. Maybe one day LV will turn into a department
store of cheap tools, but it most surely won't be in my lifetime.
On 4/11/2012 11:31 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 4:00 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:24:10 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>>
>> In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
>> inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
>> reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.
>
> Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.
>
> If Festool was as disreputable as you seem to think,
>
> You truly are an idiot. I don't think Festool is disreputable in the
> least, no more than I think Ford is disreputable for making a Lincoln
> Pickup truck, or Bentley for making a $500,000 car.
Yeah Jack I believe it has already been said, can't unsay it. Or are
you back peddling now... In case you for got what you said...
"Festool builds the most expensive shop vac on earth, their MBAthinkers
decided to go for the market that wants top quality and wants everyone
to know they paid unbelievable amounts to get it, so they paint them
ungodly green. "
Now because all of those above comments are totally exaggerated and not
true at all you obviously meant no good.
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:04:00 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>
>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>
>Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>posterity.
In the corner, with the hat on.
--
Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.
-- Matthew Arnold
On 4/10/2012 4:00 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:24:10 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>
> In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
> inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
> reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.
Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.
If Festool was as disreputable as you seem to think,
You truly are an idiot. I don't think Festool is disreputable in the
least, no more than I think Ford is disreputable for making a Lincoln
Pickup truck, or Bentley for making a $500,000 car.
I doubt Lee Valley Tools would be selling their products. Maybe one day
LV will turn into a department
> store of cheap tools, but it most surely won't be in my lifetime.
More psycho babble from the land of oz...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 11:31 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 4:00 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:24:10 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
>>>> around
>>>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of
>>>> Texans?
>>>
>>> In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
>>> inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
>>> reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.
>>
>> Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.
>>
>> If Festool was as disreputable as you seem to think,
>>
>> You truly are an idiot. I don't think Festool is disreputable in the
>> least, no more than I think Ford is disreputable for making a Lincoln
>> Pickup truck, or Bentley for making a $500,000 car.
>
> Yeah Jack I believe it has already been said, can't unsay it. Or are you
> back peddling now... In case you for got what you said...
Didn't forget a damn thing. I never in my life said, or hinted that
Festool was junk, or disreputable, and the statement you quote is no
exception.
> "Festool builds the most expensive shop vac on earth, their MBAthinkers
> decided to go for the market that wants top quality and wants everyone
> to know they paid unbelievable amounts to get it, so they paint them
> ungodly green. "
> Now because all of those above comments are totally exaggerated and not
> true at all you obviously meant no good.
None of those statements are exaggerated, including "top Quality"? I'd
expect when paying 6 times the price of a regular vacuum, it would at
least be top quality.
Obviously I have no idea what was in the heads of the MBAthinkers at
Festool when they picked ungodly green as their color, so that was just
a guess. Could just as easily been one of their kids favorite colors,
but I'll stick with what I said, until proven otherwise. It just fits
in well with their price market, which would seem to be rich Texans in a
10 gallon hat driving a big caddy convertible with Texas longhorn hood
ornament and loud musical air horns, but that might me a bit of an
exaggeration.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
RonB wrote:
> Apparently Ryobi adopted the Craftsman business
> model because it has been down hill since the late 90's. Shop
> carefully and use on-line reviews before you end up buying a bargain
> that will frustrate you for as long as you own the machine.
>
Unfortunately, Ryobi (which used to be pretty decent stuff at one time), has
become the universal junk line - across all of their product set. Their
power equipment is pure junk these days.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/11/2012 1:10 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>
>>>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
>>>>> around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the
>>>>> pockets of
>>>>> Texans?
>>>>
>>>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>>>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>>>
>>> While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
>>> that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
>>> better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
>>> Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
>>> Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
>>> -any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
>
>> Was altruism even in the topic?
>
> The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
> well as expensive Festool.
>
> I was under the impression that the
>> discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
>> the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
>> to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.
>
> Festool green is ugly.
> $500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
> Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
> Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.
Small world you live in. A moments search turned up..
other brand "most expensive on earth" vaccuums.
And this one has no mention of a HEPA filter. Ugly Orange and Butt
Ugly. And I am sure worth every penny.
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2021144/25068/fein-turbo-iii-vacuum---dust-extractor.aspx
And if you really want to get expensive in the "ShopVac brand,
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Industrial+Shop+Vac+with+Stainless+Steel+Tank+-+3.0+HP,+2-Stage,+20+G&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14220180188380796191&sa=X&ei=CdqFT7X9G6qw2QXWooHZCQ&ved=0CIwBEPMCMAM
>> Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
>> with my Festool.
>
> Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
> on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
> MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.
He is not foolish or gullible Jack, at least I do not think so however
you might be.
>
>> But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
>> accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.
>
> Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
> just buy whatever the market throws at us.
>
> Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...
>
Your words!
On 4/12/2012 10:13 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 7:52 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>> Jack says:
>>> Well, that's an industrial vac with a stainless steel tank, not
>>> something someone not driving a Lincoln Pickup would buy for his shop.
>>> More like something an MBAthinker might buy for his company for tax
>>> purposes, or a gov't manager to insure spending all his budget to avoid
>>> any cuts.
>>
>> You always have an out or excuse.
>
> You show me a shop vac that, while expensive, is still less than a
> Festool and I called you on it, sorry. Then a giant stainless steel
> industrial vac that few to no home or even small shop owners would buy,
> and I called you on it. Not excuses, just how it is.
>
> I actually was surprised you didn't come up with something like this:
>
> http://www.americanvacuum.com/vacuums/industrial-central-vacuum
>
> AAMOF you can buy the same brand vac
>> with stainless steel for less than $250.
>
> $250 is way less than a festool, although still pricy when you can buy
> one for under $100 that sucks just fine.
>
>> And what is your fetish with a lincoln PU???? Did one blow you off the
>> road???
>
> A Lincoln pick up is purchased by the same guy that buys a caddy
> convertible, mounts some Texan longhorns for the hood ornament, installs
> some god awful musical air horns, and rides around town waving his 10
> gallon hat, annoying, or attracting all the wimmin.
>
> I'm reasonably certain the Lincoln pu was a great truck, I doubt Ford
> lowered the quality just to fill the gaudy market.
>
> You seem to have a hard on against a lot of products.
>
> Wrong partner, you try to say I think Festools are junk, never said
> that, just as I never said Lincoln pick ups were junk. My pick up will
> probably haul as much, tow as much, plow just as much snow, and last
> just as long as a Lincoln pick up will, at a lot less money. My 30 some
> year old $80 shop vac will vacuum all the dust out of your $500 festool
> sander, just as it does my $100 sander. That doesn't mean festool is
> junk, it means cheaper can be good enough.
>
> If anything, it's you that seem to think only Festool owners know or
> value quality tools, and if it ain't Festool, or Laguna, it's not worth
> owning. When Larry said he likes his Makita, you told him he only THINKS
> he likes it... Wow, major issues you have there.
>
You are some what of a stereo typical prick huh Jack?
On 4/11/2012 3:49 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 3:27 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 1:10 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
>>>>>>> around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the
>>>>>>> pockets of
>>>>>>> Texans?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>>>>>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>>>>>
>>>>> While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
>>>>> that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
>>>>> better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
>>>>> Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
>>>>> Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
>>>>> -any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
>>>
>>>> Was altruism even in the topic?
>>>
>>> The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
>>> well as expensive Festool.
>>>
>>> I was under the impression that the
>>>> discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
>>>> the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable
>>>> amounts
>>>> to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.
>>>
>>> Festool green is ugly.
>>> $500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
>>> Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
>>> Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.
>>
>>
>> Small world you live in. A moments search turned up..
>>
>> other brand "most expensive on earth" vaccuums.
>>
>> And this one has no mention of a HEPA filter. Ugly Orange and Butt Ugly.
>> And I am sure worth every penny.
>>
>> http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2021144/25068/fein-turbo-iii-vacuum---dust-extractor.aspx
>>
>
> Well, that too is a crazy price for a shop vacuum, but is still less
> than the Festool.
>
>> And if you really want to get expensive in the "ShopVac brand,
>>
>> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Industrial+Shop+Vac+with+Stainless+Steel+Tank+-+3.0+HP,+2-Stage,+20+G&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14220180188380796191&sa=X&ei=CdqFT7X9G6qw2QXWooHZCQ&ved=0CIwBEPMCMAM
>>
>
> Well, that's an industrial vac with a stainless steel tank, not
> something someone not driving a Lincoln Pickup would buy for his shop.
> More like something an MBAthinker might buy for his company for tax
> purposes, or a gov't manager to insure spending all his budget to avoid
> any cuts.
You always have an out or excuse. AAMOF you can buy the same brand vac
with stainless steel for less than $250. and the Festool is industrial
in build.
And what is your fetish with a lincoln PU???? Did one blow you off the
road??? You seem to have a hard on against a lot of products.
>
>>>> Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as
>>>> I am
>>>> with my Festool.
>>>
>>> Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
>>> on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
>>> MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.
>>
>> He is not foolish or gullible Jack, at least I do not think so however
>> you might be.
>
> Always that possibility.
>
>>>> But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
>>>> accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.
>>>
>>> Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
>>> just buy whatever the market throws at us.
>>>
>>> Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...
>
>> Your words!
>
> Yeah, and while being a fool, I won't be saying them again, now that I
> know to think about "safety, accuracy, ease of use and life expectancy"
> when buying stuff. You would think the gov't would force Harbor Fright
> out of business as obviously a lot of hapless dumb asses are buying junk
> from them.
>
Again, Your words.
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:31:23 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
>>> inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
>>> reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.
>
>>Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.
>
> So as far as you are concerned, Lee Valley tools is now run by MBA
> thinkers eh?
I don't know if Rob Lee has an MBA or not but in my dealings with him
(directly) I've been left with the impression that he truly wants to provide
products that people want to buy... at various price points and to satisfy
various tastes. He was also very helpful last year around this time when he
lent me scrub planes for my lecture at Woodworkers Showcase.
Lee Valley also sets up a large booth at Showcase with a bunch of staff and
a lot of tools that you can try out for yourself. I've never had anything
but a good experience with the folks at that booth. For example, this year
when I stopped in there to get some more information on their routers
(planes, not electric) the staff dug into the web site until we both fully
understood how their router plane blade system is designed to facilitate
sharpening. That information allowed me to give a more informed lecture on
routers this year.
Those of us whom have been here on the rec for a long time recall the days
when Rob was a participant. That participation suggests to me that he is
interested in knowing what people think and what they want in ways that goes
beyond bean counting. Not that bean counting isn't important... without
profits organizations fail and we loose!
John
On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> <snip>
>>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>>
>> What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
>> your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
>> throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
> <snip>
>
> Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
> directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
> that may or may not "force" that saw on us.
>
Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop. Don't tell him about
seat belts, the odor added to natural gas, or unleaded fuel.
And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .
I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.
This is no different.
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
>I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
>Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
I firmly believe it's the safety aspect of the SawStop that has
vaulted the SawStop to it's sales position. Care to prove me wrong?
Much the same wording, different viewpoint.
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:04:59 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>My local Rockler advertised a SawStop demonstration on a Saturday
>afternoon 3 weeks ago. The focus seemed to be on "The Hotdog
>Demonstration" along with adequate description of the current cost of
>medical procedures. I would very definitely say they were trying to
>sell with fear of one sort or another.
And there's a problem with that? Fear has been used to affect sales
both negatively and positively for years. Consider graphic images on
cigarette packages to lessen sales or even daily dose aspirin which
can reduce certain cancer risks as well as other benefits.
On 4/14/2012 1:38 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Ok, as an older guy, let me just say, that if I had to buy a TS again,
> and right now I don't, but if I did, it would be a Saw Stop. Yes because
> of safety. I find myself realizing that I am getting slower in certain
> areas. Memory for one. I need my fingers to type for a living when I am
> making it. If I get stupid I want to be safe.
Totally agree, we are humans, we are not perfect, we make mistakes.
Work with a TS long enough each day and long enough in years and it is
probably prudent to say that there is a better than 50% chance you are
going to need medical attention because of an accident while using the TS.
The first time you get a trigger and ruin a blade and have to replace a
cartridge there is probably better than a 90% chance you just saved
thousands of dollars and a lot of pain. Been there, Done that.
If you are afraid of the possible expense of a false trigger because you
used wet wood or did something else that causes a false trigger you
absolutely are not being careful enough or paying close enough attention
in the first place. You can take that lesson as a warning that you are
not being careful enough.
>
> On the other hand, hands down our other American saws are not built as
> nice as the Saw Stop. Gass pulled out the stops. We Americans are behind
> the Europeans when it comes to innovation in Saws. Too bad.
IIRC there were a bunch of complaints about a particular safety feature
on the European saws being sold in Europe and or the UK. The arbors
were intentionally made too short to mount stacked dado sets. I will
bed you that there were the same complaints about that safety feature by
those that can look out for themselves....;~)
>
> But Saw Stop does take a leap, with an American design that is better
> than the rest. The European Riving knife... The quality of the casting
> and trunnion. The hand wheels just show off the final details.
>
> Why would I buy Delta when they have repeatedly let me down?
And if I were in the market, I would look at all the brands. I would
indeed look at Powermatic, Delta, Jet, Grizzly, Laguna, etc and I would
judge each on how the saw would serve me and not so much on how some one
that started each company started his or her business. The fact that
Laguna was formed and named by a European surfer dude that loves Laguna
beech and is based in California will not affect my judgement. ;~) Boy
that one was silly... and so is the reason to not consider a SawStop
because of Gass.
>
> And for the quality of the saw, the price of the safety trigger almost
> seems negligible.
If the saw saves a trip to the ER it is likely that it has actually paid
for your whole shop.
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:21:27 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>I was pissed at her and he never screwed around with the seat belt when
>momma was driving. Apparently no brain damage, he graduated Suma Cum
>Laude 16 years later and and got his masters one year after that and got
>his CPA's license 18 months after that.
Maybe that head bang was the impetus needed to trigger that drive for
the Summa cum Laude. :)
>I'll have to see if he still remembers the windshield.
Betcha he does. Right now with my depreciating memory, I can still
remember back to a few memories at age 4.
On 4/14/2012 5:22 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" wrote
>> The fact that Laguna was formed and named by a European surfer dude
>> that loves Laguna beech and is based in California will not affect my
>> judgement. ;~)
>
> Surfer dude, eh?? I KNEW there was a reason you bought a Laguna! ')
>
>
Actually I am far from a Surfer Dude. ;~)
In article <[email protected]>, tiredofspam
says...
>
> Ok, as an older guy, let me just say, that if I had to buy a TS again,
> and right now I don't, but if I did, it would be a Saw Stop. Yes
> because of safety. I find myself realizing that I am getting slower in
> certain areas. Memory for one. I need my fingers to type for a living
> when I am making it. If I get stupid I want to be safe.
>
> On the other hand, hands down our other American saws are not built as
> nice as the Saw Stop. Gass pulled out the stops. We Americans are
> behind the Europeans when it comes to innovation in Saws. Too bad.
>
> But Saw Stop does take a leap, with an American design that is better
> than the rest. The European Riving knife... The quality of the casting
> and trunnion. The hand wheels just show off the final details.
>
> Why would I buy Delta when they have repeatedly let me down?
>
> And for the quality of the saw, the price of the safety trigger almost
> seems negligible.
What Sawstop model is "American"? The ones I've looked at are all
Chinese.
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/14/2012 1:32 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
>>> I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
>>> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
>>
>> I firmly believe it's the safety aspect of the SawStop that has
>> vaulted the SawStop to it's sales position.
>
> I agree ..
>
> The safety aspect, coupled with the differences in the way the younger
> generation, who is currently buying woodworking equipment, was raised.
>
> Those of us who are just a decade older were not raised in that
> protective, cultural cocoon that even those currently in their 40's
> and 50's experienced since the sixties; and consequently, they are the
> ones who appear to be more concerned with, and aware of, _personal_
> safety.
>
> The attitude of the generation that raised me was basically that, and
> with regard to getting through life physically unscathed, some of us
> are lucky and some are not. This was arguably the direct result of
> those doing the raising being themselves raised in a severe economic
> depression, followed shortly thereafter by participation in a world
> war to the death.
>
> To me it is particularly noticeable on G+, where most of the
> woodworking participants are younger than those here, that _personal
> safety_ takes on an aura of almost religious proportions from the get
> go, something that almost had to be forced on many of us older farts.
>
> YMMV ...
I'm an old fart alright. I agree that safety has become a near cult with
some. But I'm not sure that is all that bad. As a kid and young adult
going into chemistry, I'd clean paint brushes, bicycle chains etc with
carbon tetrachloride and benzene, now universally considered heavy duty
carcinogens. I used to smoke next to (but not too close) ether and other
bad stuff. Most fun was to push some sodium metal down the drain ...
Now, the plastic surgeon has earned too much off of me and I'm more
careful ... (I think).
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Ok, as an older guy, let me just say, that if I had to buy a TS again,
and right now I don't, but if I did, it would be a Saw Stop. Yes
because of safety. I find myself realizing that I am getting slower in
certain areas. Memory for one. I need my fingers to type for a living
when I am making it. If I get stupid I want to be safe.
On the other hand, hands down our other American saws are not built as
nice as the Saw Stop. Gass pulled out the stops. We Americans are
behind the Europeans when it comes to innovation in Saws. Too bad.
But Saw Stop does take a leap, with an American design that is better
than the rest. The European Riving knife... The quality of the casting
and trunnion. The hand wheels just show off the final details.
Why would I buy Delta when they have repeatedly let me down?
And for the quality of the saw, the price of the safety trigger almost
seems negligible.
On 4/14/2012 11:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/14/2012 1:32 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
>>> I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
>>> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
>>
>> I firmly believe it's the safety aspect of the SawStop that has
>> vaulted the SawStop to it's sales position.
>
> I agree ..
>
> The safety aspect, coupled with the differences in the way the younger
> generation, who is currently buying woodworking equipment, was raised.
>
> Those of us who are just a decade older were not raised in that
> protective, cultural cocoon that even those currently in their 40's and
> 50's experienced since the sixties; and consequently, they are the ones
> who appear to be more concerned with, and aware of, _personal_ safety.
>
> The attitude of the generation that raised me was basically that, and
> with regard to getting through life physically unscathed, some of us are
> lucky and some are not. This was arguably the direct result of those
> doing the raising being themselves raised in a severe economic
> depression, followed shortly thereafter by participation in a world war
> to the death.
>
> To me it is particularly noticeable on G+, where most of the woodworking
> participants are younger than those here, that _personal safety_ takes
> on an aura of almost religious proportions from the get go, something
> that almost had to be forced on many of us older farts.
>
> YMMV ...
>
On 4/14/2012 1:32 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
>> I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
>> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
>
> I firmly believe it's the safety aspect of the SawStop that has
> vaulted the SawStop to it's sales position.
I agree ..
The safety aspect, coupled with the differences in the way the younger
generation, who is currently buying woodworking equipment, was raised.
Those of us who are just a decade older were not raised in that
protective, cultural cocoon that even those currently in their 40's and
50's experienced since the sixties; and consequently, they are the ones
who appear to be more concerned with, and aware of, _personal_ safety.
The attitude of the generation that raised me was basically that, and
with regard to getting through life physically unscathed, some of us are
lucky and some are not. This was arguably the direct result of those
doing the raising being themselves raised in a severe economic
depression, followed shortly thereafter by participation in a world war
to the death.
To me it is particularly noticeable on G+, where most of the woodworking
participants are younger than those here, that _personal safety_ takes
on an aura of almost religious proportions from the get go, something
that almost had to be forced on many of us older farts.
YMMV ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/14/2012 8:28 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> Case in point, I have my own form of fear appeal marketing in my shop. I
> keep the remains of a glued up panel, that kicked back on the table saw
> late one night, in clear view from my table saw. ;~) I understand the
> cause well and it can be summed up by the word 'fatigue.' I should have
> gone to bed and I should have put the t-splitter back in after making a
> non-through cut.
With a table saw in particular, it's not a question of if, it's a
question of when ... no matter who you are. Do it long enough and you
will cross that line at some point, with dumb luck being the deciding
factor whether you come out unscathed.
Not putting the splitter back on has put my toes over the edge on a
couple of occasions, to the point of shivering when thinking about what
_could_ have happened.
For the way I use a table saw, and I use one daily, a splitter shares
the spotlight with a good _push block_ as mandatory safety devices.
(would love to own a table saw with a real riving knife)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:04:59 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>My local Rockler advertised a SawStop demonstration on a Saturday
>>afternoon 3 weeks ago. The focus seemed to be on "The Hotdog
>>Demonstration" along with adequate description of the current cost of
>>medical procedures. I would very definitely say they were trying to
>>sell with fear of one sort or another.
>
> And there's a problem with that? Fear has been used to affect sales
> both negatively and positively for years. Consider graphic images on
> cigarette packages to lessen sales or even daily dose aspirin which
> can reduce certain cancer risks as well as other benefits.
It's referred to as "fear appeal marketing" and it is used for many products
and agendas including table saws, termites, cigarettes, drug abuse, driving
while drunk, gun control, asbestos, political agendas, etc. It was even used
by the nurse in the maternity ward when I had the nerve to stand up while
holding my new born son, "You'll feel really bad if you drop him." Wanted to
bitch slap her... I was and am far more concerned with the potential for
medical malpractice or negligence than I am in my dropping a baby. Why?
Because of the huge incidence of documented medical misadventure in the U.S.
A Harvard Medical Practices study estimated 90,000+ die each year and many
times that number suffer staff infections and injuries.
As a consumer of information you have to be able to sort through the agendas
and figure out if there is any benefit to be gained from the product or
service... Sawstop technology has merit. This is especially true in
environments where relatively inexperienced people (training shops, schools,
homes, job sites) or people must work when they really shouldn't due to
fatigue or illness (commercial shops, industrial settings) or when people's
abilities are impaired by drugs or alcohol (a problem on some job sites and
home shops). Of course most of us here don't fall into any of those
categories as we're skilled and experienced woodworkers who know to leave
the shop when we're tired or ill, we're never in a rush or distracted, and
none of us are ever under the influence... ;~)
Case in point, I have my own form of fear appeal marketing in my shop. I
keep the remains of a glued up panel, that kicked back on the table saw late
one night, in clear view from my table saw. ;~) I understand the cause
well and it can be summed up by the word 'fatigue.' I should have gone to
bed and I should have put the t-splitter back in after making a non-through
cut.
John
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
<snip>
>> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
>> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
>> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>
> What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
> your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
> throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
<snip>
Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
that may or may not "force" that saw on us.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Larry Jaques" wrote
>
> If the equally well built Unisaw is not selling well, at the same
> price, with its longstanding good reputation, what makes the
> difference? I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
>
Apples and oranges. Delta's reputation has been tarnished as of late.
There is no longer a company behind them that can be counted on, even to
supply parts old Delta tools. A lot of people want to go with somebody more
reliable. And a comparison between the two saws isn't really fair. That
safety stop is not only a good device, despite Gass being a scumbag, but the
saw is an excelled saw. I have looked at those two saws side by side. I
don't think they really compare. On a bang for your buck basis, the Saw
Stop is a better saw.
And if you are on any kind of budget, you won't buy either saw.
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in news:mvydnX9ofpc5bRXSnZ2dnUVZ_o-
[email protected]:
> On 4/13/2012 9:38 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> I want to die like my grandfather, who passed in his sleep, not crying
>> and screaming, like the passengers in his car.
>
> That is sooooo farking bad, Dude! LMAO
>
>
It's also about as old as the Model A. Well, maybe not quite that old but
not too much younger.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
"Leon" wrote
>
> First off, you are the first person that I have heard mention that the new
> Unisaw is equally well built. I know of no one that has been impress with
> the new Unisaw. Over all the SawStop is a better thought out and saw.
Particularly at that price point. For the money you have to pay, there is a
lot of competition from companies that have not changed ownership five times
and still service their customers. At half the price, maybe. Delta is
trying to sell on the basis of an old reputation. As people become more
aware and folks talk to each other on the web, etc, it gets harder to do
that.
Again, Gass was smart in offering a quality product. Remember back in the
day when most American products were quality? You never have to apologize
for quality.
As for safety, I have always been a safety freak. I never apologized for it
and still have all fingers, etc. I have no problem with the safety features
of the SS. It is a little pricey for me at this time. Plus I don't have
the room. But is is still a good saw.
On 4/13/2012 11:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:10:52 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>>
>>
>> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but to deny
>> that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw, and that it
>> does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is nothing short of
>> foolish. That saw began selling well before he tried his tactics with the
>> Consumer Product Safety Commission. That alone is proof that the saw is
>> selling on its own merits. Your personal feelings toward Gass are clouding
>> your judgement.
>
> If the equally well built Unisaw is not selling well, at the same
> price, with its longstanding good reputation, what makes the
> difference? I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
>
> --
> Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
> -- Margaret Lee Runbeck
First off, you are the first person that I have heard mention that the
new Unisaw is equally well built. I know of no one that has been
impress with the new Unisaw. Over all the SawStop is a better thought
out and saw.
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:32:11 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/12/2012 11:07 PM, CW wrote:
>
>>
>> And there was the "I don't want the government telling me that I have to
>> wear seat belts." I am a safe driver and not foolish like the other
>> drivers. Seat belts are going to cause more accidents because drivers
>> will have a false sense of security.
>> ===================================================================
>> Then there was my FILs excuse. "I never wear seatbelts. In an accident,
>> I'd rather be thrown clear". The man had the IQ of a turnip.
>>
>
>RTFLMAO,
>
>
>And I just knew you were going to say that he would simply brace himself
>against the steering wheel in the event he crashed into something going
>70 mph. ;~)
I want to die like my grandfather, who passed in his sleep, not crying
and screaming, like the passengers in his car.
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:10:52 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>>
>>
>> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but
>> to deny that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw,
>> and that it does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere,
>> is nothing short of foolish. That saw began selling well before he
>> tried his tactics with the Consumer Product Safety Commission. That
>> alone is proof that the saw is selling on its own merits. Your
>> personal feelings toward Gass are clouding your judgement.
>
> If the equally well built Unisaw is not selling well, at the same
> price, with its longstanding good reputation, what makes the
> difference? I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
Nope - I'm not the one making the assertion. If the Unisaw is not selling
as well as the SawStop (and I do not know if this is the case or not), then
I'd say the consumer is speaking. Why do people buy anything? Mabye the
people here who have purchased SawStops or would/are considering one, should
speak up and state why they would or did make that purchase decision.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/14/2012 4:15 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" wrote
>>
>> First off, you are the first person that I have heard mention that the
>> new Unisaw is equally well built. I know of no one that has been
>> impress with the new Unisaw. Over all the SawStop is a better thought
>> out and saw.
>
> Particularly at that price point. For the money you have to pay, there
> is a lot of competition from companies that have not changed ownership
> five times and still service their customers. At half the price, maybe.
> Delta is trying to sell on the basis of an old reputation. As people
> become more aware and folks talk to each other on the web, etc, it gets
> harder to do that.
>
> Again, Gass was smart in offering a quality product. Remember back in
> the day when most American products were quality? You never have to
> apologize for quality.
Well you used to never have to apologize for quality but these days I am
not so sure. If quality makes money for those that turn it out there
are those that oppose it because they are making money turning out
quality and or because they can't afford it. The world is not fair and
never has been.
>
> As for safety, I have always been a safety freak. I never apologized for
> it and still have all fingers, etc. I have no problem with the safety
> features of the SS. It is a little pricey for me at this time. Plus I
> don't have the room. But is is still a good saw.
>
On 4/14/2012 8:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:10:52 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> If the equally well built Unisaw is not selling well, at the same
>> price, with its longstanding good reputation, what makes the
>> difference? I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
>> Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
>
> Nope - I'm not the one making the assertion. If the Unisaw is not selling
> as well as the SawStop (and I do not know if this is the case or not), then
> I'd say the consumer is speaking. Why do people buy anything? Mabye the
> people here who have purchased SawStops or would/are considering one, should
> speak up and state why they would or did make that purchase decision.
I'd bet a large part of the market is the school system with deep
pockets buying them so the kiddies can't cut off a fing-ee. Not saying
thats a bad idea, just that it's much easier for a government to spend
other peoples money on stuff for the kids than an adult to spend their
own money.
Hell, far as I know even Leon hasn't dumped his saw for a safer one,
choosing to spend his money on Festools and luguna's rather than saving
an occasional fing-ee here and there.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:10:52 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>
>
>Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but to deny
>that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw, and that it
>does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is nothing short of
>foolish. That saw began selling well before he tried his tactics with the
>Consumer Product Safety Commission. That alone is proof that the saw is
>selling on its own merits. Your personal feelings toward Gass are clouding
>your judgement.
If the equally well built Unisaw is not selling well, at the same
price, with its longstanding good reputation, what makes the
difference? I firmly believe it's the "selling of fear" advertising
Gass has done. Care to prove me wrong?
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
>>>> around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of
>>>> Texans?
>>>
>>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>>
>> While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
>> that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
>> better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
>> Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
>> Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
>> -any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
> Was altruism even in the topic?
The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
well as expensive Festool.
I was under the impression that the
> discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
> the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
> to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.
Festool green is ugly.
$500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.
> Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
> with my Festool.
Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.
> But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
> accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.
Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
just buy whatever the market throws at us.
Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 3:27 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 1:10 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>
>>>>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
>>>>>> around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the
>>>>>> pockets of
>>>>>> Texans?
>>>>>
>>>>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>>>>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>>>>
>>>> While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
>>>> that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
>>>> better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
>>>> Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
>>>> Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
>>>> -any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
>>
>>> Was altruism even in the topic?
>>
>> The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
>> well as expensive Festool.
>>
>> I was under the impression that the
>>> discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
>>> the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
>>> to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.
>>
>> Festool green is ugly.
>> $500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
>> Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
>> Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.
>
>
> Small world you live in. A moments search turned up..
>
> other brand "most expensive on earth" vaccuums.
>
> And this one has no mention of a HEPA filter. Ugly Orange and Butt Ugly.
> And I am sure worth every penny.
>
> http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2021144/25068/fein-turbo-iii-vacuum---dust-extractor.aspx
Well, that too is a crazy price for a shop vacuum, but is still less
than the Festool.
> And if you really want to get expensive in the "ShopVac brand,
>
> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Industrial+Shop+Vac+with+Stainless+Steel+Tank+-+3.0+HP,+2-Stage,+20+G&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14220180188380796191&sa=X&ei=CdqFT7X9G6qw2QXWooHZCQ&ved=0CIwBEPMCMAM
Well, that's an industrial vac with a stainless steel tank, not
something someone not driving a Lincoln Pickup would buy for his shop.
More like something an MBAthinker might buy for his company for tax
purposes, or a gov't manager to insure spending all his budget to avoid
any cuts.
>>> Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
>>> with my Festool.
>>
>> Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
>> on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
>> MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.
>
> He is not foolish or gullible Jack, at least I do not think so however
> you might be.
Always that possibility.
>>> But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
>>> accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.
>>
>> Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
>> just buy whatever the market throws at us.
>>
>> Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...
> Your words!
Yeah, and while being a fool, I won't be saying them again, now that I
know to think about "safety, accuracy, ease of use and life expectancy"
when buying stuff. You would think the gov't would force Harbor Fright
out of business as obviously a lot of hapless dumb asses are buying junk
from them.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 7:52 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>Jack says:
>> Well, that's an industrial vac with a stainless steel tank, not
>> something someone not driving a Lincoln Pickup would buy for his shop.
>> More like something an MBAthinker might buy for his company for tax
>> purposes, or a gov't manager to insure spending all his budget to avoid
>> any cuts.
>
> You always have an out or excuse.
You show me a shop vac that, while expensive, is still less than a
Festool and I called you on it, sorry. Then a giant stainless steel
industrial vac that few to no home or even small shop owners would buy,
and I called you on it. Not excuses, just how it is.
I actually was surprised you didn't come up with something like this:
http://www.americanvacuum.com/vacuums/industrial-central-vacuum
AAMOF you can buy the same brand vac
> with stainless steel for less than $250.
$250 is way less than a festool, although still pricy when you can buy
one for under $100 that sucks just fine.
> And what is your fetish with a lincoln PU???? Did one blow you off the
> road???
A Lincoln pick up is purchased by the same guy that buys a caddy
convertible, mounts some Texan longhorns for the hood ornament, installs
some god awful musical air horns, and rides around town waving his 10
gallon hat, annoying, or attracting all the wimmin.
I'm reasonably certain the Lincoln pu was a great truck, I doubt Ford
lowered the quality just to fill the gaudy market.
You seem to have a hard on against a lot of products.
Wrong partner, you try to say I think Festools are junk, never said
that, just as I never said Lincoln pick ups were junk. My pick up will
probably haul as much, tow as much, plow just as much snow, and last
just as long as a Lincoln pick up will, at a lot less money. My 30 some
year old $80 shop vac will vacuum all the dust out of your $500 festool
sander, just as it does my $100 sander. That doesn't mean festool is
junk, it means cheaper can be good enough.
If anything, it's you that seem to think only Festool owners know or
value quality tools, and if it ain't Festool, or Laguna, it's not worth
owning. When Larry said he likes his Makita, you told him he only
THINKS he likes it... Wow, major issues you have there.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:31:23 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
>> inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
>> reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.
>Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.
So as far as you are concerned, Lee Valley tools is now run by MBA
thinkers eh?
And despite this travesty of invading MBA thinkers, Lee Valley Tools
is a popular, profitable company with a stellar reputation. That kind
of puts an opposite slant to your MBA thinker rhetoric, don't you
think?
Jack, you are so full of shit, it permeates everything that you touch
or talk about. Rarely, is there rhyme or reason to your bullshit. The
only believable thing is that for some reason, you do it to foster
attention.
On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:35:51 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>>>>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>>>>
>>>> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>>>> posterity.
>>>
>>> No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
>>> fault of "MBAthink"
>>>
>>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>>
>> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
>
> While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
> that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
> better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
> Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
> Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
> -any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
Was altruism even in the topic? I was under the impression that the
discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.
>
> Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
> And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
> throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>
What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down your
throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my throat. If
I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
with my Festool. You returned you Makita saw didn't you?? ;~) I have
not yet returned any of my Festool and I had a 30 day try out period
with each Festool power tool purchase so I am not hiding buyers remorse.
I have and still use both Makita and Festool so I have first hand
knowledge of the quality of both and where one brand excels over the other.
Now I think I am just as happy with my Accord as the guy in the next
neighborhood that owns a Maserati. And I am fully aware that ignorance
is bliss so I don't really know if I am as happy or not but I am content
with my decisions. But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.
On 4/12/2012 7:43 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:24:33 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
>>> Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
>>> attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.
>
>> As they will with the SawStop. Although the SawStop is being widely
>> accepted. There will be the exception hold outs however. And they will
>> continue to believe we never landed on the moon, etc.
> I can still remember. 1964 in my father's Rambler station wagon, I was
> 10 years old at the time. He hit the brakes and my head crashed into
> the dashboard. I wasn't seriously hurt, but it's something I've always
> remembered as if it was yesterday.
1992 My wife was taking our 5 year old son to kindergarten. Before she
got out of the neighborhood she hit the brake and he was still putzing
around with the seat belt. His head shattered the windshield.
I was pissed at her and he never screwed around with the seat belt when
momma was driving. Apparently no brain damage, he graduated Suma Cum
Laude 16 years later and and got his masters one year after that and got
his CPA's license 18 months after that.
I'll have to see if he still remembers the windshield.
On 4/12/2012 8:43 AM, Dave wrote:
> I can still remember. 1964 in my father's Rambler station wagon, I was
> 10 years old at the time. He hit the brakes and my head crashed into
> the dashboard.
....Ahhhhso, now it starts to make sense:-)
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:24:33 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
>> Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
>> attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.
>As they will with the SawStop. Although the SawStop is being widely
>accepted. There will be the exception hold outs however. And they will
>continue to believe we never landed on the moon, etc.
I can still remember. 1964 in my father's Rambler station wagon, I was
10 years old at the time. He hit the brakes and my head crashed into
the dashboard. I wasn't seriously hurt, but it's something I've always
remembered as if it was yesterday.
Not from the get go, have I ever had a problem with wearing a seat
belt. In addition, I'm reasonably sure that a seat belt has saved my
life and I have the picture to prove it.
Provided my height criteria was met by a SawStop, I wouldn't have a
problem with one either, despite all the hoopla. It just makes sense
to me. What else is there to consider?
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:35:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>>>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>>>
>>> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>>> posterity.
>>
>> No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
>> fault of "MBAthink"
>>
>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>
>You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
>tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
-any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.
Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles
Morgans wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> **********************************************************
>> Let me know when they start making one with at least a 12" blade and
>> a motor that is available in 208 volts, and an honest 5 HP.
>>
>> -- Jim in NC
>
> Huh?
> ************************************************************
>
> Break it down piece by piece.
> I teach carpentry in NC public schools.
> The state has equipment minimum standards.
> It specifies the table saw to be at least 12".
> The school has 3 phase power, and all of the single phase power is 208
> volts. A 240 volt saw sucks running at 208 volts. It is weak, heats
> up the motor and the overload heaters in the magnetic starter way
> faster than they would if the voltage was correct.
> We frequently run the saw in an industrial manner, so it is my
> requirement to be able to rip green 4 x 4 and bigger or hardwood 4 x
> 4 and bigger. I like to have 5 HP to do that with power to spare,
> for long periods of time.
> -- Jim in NC
It's easy to break it down piece by piece when you lay it out. Otherwise -
it left a lot to wonder about.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
> </teensy bit of angst>
>
Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but to deny
that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw, and that it
does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is nothing short of
foolish. That saw began selling well before he tried his tactics with the
Consumer Product Safety Commission. That alone is proof that the saw is
selling on its own merits. Your personal feelings toward Gass are clouding
your judgement.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:32:32 -0400, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com>
>Have you put a link belt on it.
Yes. There's been a link belt on it for a number of years. It's a
forty year old Rockwell Beaver contractor's saw. At a guess, I'd have
to say the rails sticking out off one edge of the saw have a
measurable effect on the stability of the saw, making it prone to
vibrating.
"Swingman" wrote...
> On 4/17/2012 11:48 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>> BUT for remodeling it would have to pay for itself in clean up time.
>
>
> Just for the record, the current crew rate here is $35/labor hour (four
> people $140/hour) for "top to bottom" cleanup after a remodel.
>
> Current, and as quoted, for an upcoming cleanup next week on a remodel I'm
> finishing up as we speak.
>
> It wouldn't take an undue amount at that rate for a contractor to pay for
> one of those in fewer hours of cleanup over a couple of jobs.
>
Again, as you pointed out earlier, Festool is a SYSTEM!!
The whole package may be kind of expensive. But they have the whole
package. The drywall sander itself, which I have never seen one like that
before. The abrasives, which as a Festool product is not only quality, but
lasts a long time. And, of course, the "dust extractor".
It seems to me that most folks who would buy such a system probably already
have the dust extractor. Dust free sanding would seem to be a super
marketing point. Not that many folks can say that. And having a sander or
two could easily create some more biz as well. Perhaps some touch up on the
cabinets or whatever.
And like real estate agents, who are clueless, contractors have no idea how
much stress they create for their clients. Reduce the stress levels, the
clients are happier. And since most folks charge by the job, it means you
get out of there sooner. Client is happier. Contractor make more money.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
And, again, the best form of marketing is referrals. You make a good
impression, the client talks about it friends and neighbors. Reducing the
time on the job and the dust levels could be considered a legitimate
marketing expense. There is more than one way to justify the cost from a
business perspective.
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:26:40 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> I have to agree. I don't do the amount of work that Swingman and
>> Leon do for other people, but in all of the work that I have done
>> for others (and that is not an inconsequential amount of work) on
>> site, I have never heard a complaint about the level of noise or the
>> amount of dust in the containment area - or even slightly outside of
>> it.
>
> What customer is going to mention dust or noise to you? Think about it
> for a minute.
>
> "Hey Mike. Your shop vac is making too much noise. Can you go away and
> not come back until you've got something quieter, please?"
>
> Customer's are just glad someone is there working on their home. For
> the period the construction is going on, the customer expects to be
> inconvenienced. That doesn't for one second mean that you ignore any
> discomfort they might feel. Part of marketing yourself is customer
> service and foreseeing problems and complaints a customer might have.
>
> Fine, you might not being doing high end jobs for customers. But, did
> you ever wonder how the contractors doing the high end jobs get to
> that position? Part of it would have been the quality of service that
> they give.
Well - since I believe I exceed the normal level of customer service in many
areas - including the way I leave a site at the end of every day, I really
don't believe the high end guys have anything on me on that front. In terms
of workmanship - I certainly believe they have it over me, and that's why
they get those high end jobs. Many of our personal associates are the
"social elite" in this area. They are the types that really do care about
things like this - if anybody really does. Yet - that's just not something
I've ever heard come up when there have been conversations about
contractors. Muddy boots in the house - yup. Insufficient floor
coverings - yup. Swearing - yup. Lots of things - just never, ever heard
anyone comment on the noise of the work and the clean up, except to say that
they would be glad when all of that was done and the contractors were
completely out of their homes.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
In my experience the new compounds with the "heavy" dust aren't bad if you
use a pole sander with sanding screens. The dust falls to the floor and very
little floats in the air... If you can set up some negative pressure with a
window fan, and vacuum the floor and yourself before tracking the dust
around the rest of the house, it would be pretty painless.
John
On 4/19/2012 8:14 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 4:46 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Steve Barker wrote:
>>> On 4/18/2012 11:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And by golly you have cannot see ever using either and have not used
>>>> either but know that the equipment is bulky and heavy.
>>>>
>>>> Here we go again., The lack of experience or knowledge about something
>>>> does not matter..
>>>
>>> Was that in english?
>>>
>>
>> If you remove the first "have" it reads good--I mean well.
>
>
> yes, it's amazing how one misplaced word can screw up an entire thought.
> Thanks.
>
Stick around long enough Steve and you will learn my code. LOL
On 4/17/2012 8:15 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>
> Dave<[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> What customer is going to mention dust or noise to you? Think about it
>> for a minute.
>>
>> "Hey Mike. Your shop vac is making too much noise. Can you go away and
>> not come back until you've got something quieter, please?"
>>
>> Customer's are just glad someone is there working on their home. For
>> the period the construction is going on, the customer expects to be
>> inconvenienced. That doesn't for one second mean that you ignore any
>> discomfort they might feel. Part of marketing yourself is customer
>> service and foreseeing problems and complaints a customer might have.
>
> As a consumer of such services, one important part is how people
> talk about the experience later. No one is going to say "Festool,"
> but I've heard people talking about home jobs after they were done
> and commenting on "they had this thing and, wow, there wasn't nearly
> the mess I expected."
>
> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>
>
http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
On 4/17/2012 8:15 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>
> Dave<[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> What customer is going to mention dust or noise to you? Think about it
>> for a minute.
>>
>> "Hey Mike. Your shop vac is making too much noise. Can you go away and
>> not come back until you've got something quieter, please?"
>>
>> Customer's are just glad someone is there working on their home. For
>> the period the construction is going on, the customer expects to be
>> inconvenienced. That doesn't for one second mean that you ignore any
>> discomfort they might feel. Part of marketing yourself is customer
>> service and foreseeing problems and complaints a customer might have.
>
> As a consumer of such services, one important part is how people
> talk about the experience later. No one is going to say "Festool,"
> but I've heard people talking about home jobs after they were done
> and commenting on "they had this thing and, wow, there wasn't nearly
> the mess I expected."
>
> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>
>
http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
On 4/17/2012 11:48 AM, Leon wrote:
> BUT for remodeling it would have to pay for itself in clean up time.
Just for the record, the current crew rate here is $35/labor hour (four
people $140/hour) for "top to bottom" cleanup after a remodel.
Current, and as quoted, for an upcoming cleanup next week on a remodel
I'm finishing up as we speak.
It wouldn't take an undue amount at that rate for a contractor to pay
for one of those in fewer hours of cleanup over a couple of jobs.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote:
> Again, as you pointed out earlier, Festool is a SYSTEM!!
> And like real estate agents, who are clueless, contractors have no idea
> how much stress they create for their clients. Reduce the stress levels,
> the clients are happier.
Absolutely ... but not all.
I have actually bought many a client a copy of Tracy Kidder's "House" ....
And without doubt saved a few marriages by doing so. AAMOF, I always
introduce the book in the initial meeting with clients contemplating
building a home, or doing a major remodel.
--
www.ewoodshop.com
Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:26:47 -0500, Steve Barker
>>> Here we go again., The lack of experience or knowledge about something
>>> does not matter..
>>Was that in english?
>
>I don't know about English, but I do know about displayed ignorance
>bolstered by a measure of arrogance thrown in for good measure.
Not just know, but seemingly exemplify.
On 4/17/2012 11:48 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 11:43 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:21:52 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
>>>> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
>>>> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
>>>> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
>>>> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>>
>>> http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
>>
>> Yup. My toolporn dealer says it's completely dust free. Unlikely that
>> I'll be verifying that anytime in the future since I can't handle
>> drywall very easily anymore. But if it is as dust free as they claim,
>> then it's just another Festool that people will cry about because of
>> the price.
>>
>> "Hell, we've lived with drywall dust during renovations for ages,
>> honey. Why should we worry about it now. BTW sweetie, can you hook me
>> up to another oxygen tank please?"
>
> I don't think you will ever see it used by a dry wall crew that is
> working on new construction, they leave the clean up for some one else.
> BUT for remodeling it would have to pay for itself in clean up time. I
> know that PC has had a similar unit available for several years now. I
> wonder how the two would compare.
the pc is cheaper. Hell, FIVE PC's are probably cheaper. I can't see
using either brand. bulky heavy joke of a piece of equipment.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:21:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
>> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
>> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
>> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
>> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
Yup. My toolporn dealer says it's completely dust free. Unlikely that
I'll be verifying that anytime in the future since I can't handle
drywall very easily anymore. But if it is as dust free as they claim,
then it's just another Festool that people will cry about because of
the price.
"Hell, we've lived with drywall dust during renovations for ages,
honey. Why should we worry about it now. BTW sweetie, can you hook me
up to another oxygen tank please?"
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:48:01 -0500, Steve Barker
>the pc is cheaper. Hell, FIVE PC's are probably cheaper. I can't see
>using either brand. bulky heavy joke of a piece of equipment.
Did you by any chance, have a look at one either online or in person?
With the belt support, you can use it to do ceilings and higher up
walls.
Of course, I'm quite sure you'd prefer the aches and pains of hand
sanding a ceiling.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/17/2012 8:15 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>
>> Dave<[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>> What customer is going to mention dust or noise to you? Think about it
>>> for a minute.
>>>
>>> "Hey Mike. Your shop vac is making too much noise. Can you go away and
>>> not come back until you've got something quieter, please?"
>>>
>>> Customer's are just glad someone is there working on their home. For
>>> the period the construction is going on, the customer expects to be
>>> inconvenienced. That doesn't for one second mean that you ignore any
>>> discomfort they might feel. Part of marketing yourself is customer
>>> service and foreseeing problems and complaints a customer might have.
>>
>> As a consumer of such services, one important part is how people
>> talk about the experience later. No one is going to say "Festool,"
>> but I've heard people talking about home jobs after they were done
>> and commenting on "they had this thing and, wow, there wasn't nearly
>> the mess I expected."
>>
>> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
>> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
>> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
>> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
>> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>>
>>
>
>http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
wetsanding works well too. And doesn't require a $600 vacuum :-)
s
In article <[email protected]>
Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>
>What customer is going to mention dust or noise to you? Think about it
>for a minute.
>
>"Hey Mike. Your shop vac is making too much noise. Can you go away and
>not come back until you've got something quieter, please?"
>
>Customer's are just glad someone is there working on their home. For
>the period the construction is going on, the customer expects to be
>inconvenienced. That doesn't for one second mean that you ignore any
>discomfort they might feel. Part of marketing yourself is customer
>service and foreseeing problems and complaints a customer might have.
As a consumer of such services, one important part is how people
talk about the experience later. No one is going to say "Festool,"
but I've heard people talking about home jobs after they were done
and commenting on "they had this thing and, wow, there wasn't nearly
the mess I expected."
I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
--
|Drew Lawson | Mrs. Tweedy! |
| | The chickens are revolting! |
In article <[email protected]>
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/17/2012 8:15 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>>
>> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
>> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
>> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
>> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
>> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>>
>>
>
>http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
Cool. And if I am choosing between a contractor with something
like that and one without, it will certainly have weight in the
decision.
--
Drew Lawson | Pass the tea and sympathy
| for he good old days are dead
| Let's raise a toast to those
| who best survived the life they led
Steve Barker wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 11:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> And by golly you have cannot see ever using either and have not used
>> either but know that the equipment is bulky and heavy.
>>
>> Here we go again., The lack of experience or knowledge about something
>> does not matter..
>
> Was that in english?
>
If you remove the first "have" it reads good--I mean well.
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 23:34:16 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Have you ever run a piece of lumber across a jointer?
>
>
>I've never used a hammer drill, but I can tell you I will the next time
>I drill in mortar/masonry!
>
I used a hammer drill one day. After pounding in a couple of dozen
nails, it was pretty useless for drilling. Maybe I was holding it
wrong.
On 4/18/2012 10:48 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 11:48 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/17/2012 11:43 AM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:21:52 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
>>>>> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
>>>>> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
>>>>> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
>>>>> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>>>
>>>> http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
>>>
>>> Yup. My toolporn dealer says it's completely dust free. Unlikely that
>>> I'll be verifying that anytime in the future since I can't handle
>>> drywall very easily anymore. But if it is as dust free as they claim,
>>> then it's just another Festool that people will cry about because of
>>> the price.
>>>
>>> "Hell, we've lived with drywall dust during renovations for ages,
>>> honey. Why should we worry about it now. BTW sweetie, can you hook me
>>> up to another oxygen tank please?"
>>
>> I don't think you will ever see it used by a dry wall crew that is
>> working on new construction, they leave the clean up for some one else.
>> BUT for remodeling it would have to pay for itself in clean up time. I
>> know that PC has had a similar unit available for several years now. I
>> wonder how the two would compare.
>
>
> the pc is cheaper. Hell, FIVE PC's are probably cheaper. I can't see
> using either brand. bulky heavy joke of a piece of equipment.
>
And by golly you have cannot see ever using either and have not used
either but know that the equipment is bulky and heavy.
Here we go again., The lack of experience or knowledge about something
does not matter..
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:26:40 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>I have to agree. I don't do the amount of work that Swingman and Leon do
>for other people, but in all of the work that I have done for others (and
>that is not an inconsequential amount of work) on site, I have never heard a
>complaint about the level of noise or the amount of dust in the containment
>area - or even slightly outside of it.
What customer is going to mention dust or noise to you? Think about it
for a minute.
"Hey Mike. Your shop vac is making too much noise. Can you go away and
not come back until you've got something quieter, please?"
Customer's are just glad someone is there working on their home. For
the period the construction is going on, the customer expects to be
inconvenienced. That doesn't for one second mean that you ignore any
discomfort they might feel. Part of marketing yourself is customer
service and foreseeing problems and complaints a customer might have.
Fine, you might not being doing high end jobs for customers. But, did
you ever wonder how the contractors doing the high end jobs get to
that position? Part of it would have been the quality of service that
they give.
On 4/18/2012 11:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>
> And by golly you have cannot see ever using either and have not used
> either but know that the equipment is bulky and heavy.
>
> Here we go again., The lack of experience or knowledge about something
> does not matter..
Was that in english?
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 4/18/2012 4:46 PM, Bill wrote:
> Steve Barker wrote:
>> On 4/18/2012 11:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And by golly you have cannot see ever using either and have not used
>>> either but know that the equipment is bulky and heavy.
>>>
>>> Here we go again., The lack of experience or knowledge about something
>>> does not matter..
>>
>> Was that in english?
>>
>
> If you remove the first "have" it reads good--I mean well.
yes, it's amazing how one misplaced word can screw up an entire thought.
Thanks.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 4/18/2012 6:36 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:48:01 -0500, Steve Barker
>> the pc is cheaper. Hell, FIVE PC's are probably cheaper. I can't see
>> using either brand. bulky heavy joke of a piece of equipment.
>
> Did you by any chance, have a look at one either online or in person?
> With the belt support, you can use it to do ceilings and higher up
> walls.
>
> Of course, I'm quite sure you'd prefer the aches and pains of hand
> sanding a ceiling.
no i don't relish the thought of sanding ceilings. But i do a pretty
fair job of taping, and i do knock down on them, and I don't have to do
them often.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 4/17/2012 11:43 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:21:52 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>>> I have a drywall job on the to-do (to-hire-for) list. Part of the
>>> procrastination is knowing that it will get dust everywhere. (The
>>> rest is budget and I haven't finished the framing yet.) If I heard
>>> someone talking about a drywall job that was surprisingly low in
>>> dust, I'd be writing down the contractor's name.
>
>> http://www.sanderfordrywall.com/
>
> Yup. My toolporn dealer says it's completely dust free. Unlikely that
> I'll be verifying that anytime in the future since I can't handle
> drywall very easily anymore. But if it is as dust free as they claim,
> then it's just another Festool that people will cry about because of
> the price.
>
> "Hell, we've lived with drywall dust during renovations for ages,
> honey. Why should we worry about it now. BTW sweetie, can you hook me
> up to another oxygen tank please?"
I don't think you will ever see it used by a dry wall crew that is
working on new construction, they leave the clean up for some one else.
BUT for remodeling it would have to pay for itself in clean up time. I
know that PC has had a similar unit available for several years now. I
wonder how the two would compare.
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but to
> deny
> that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw, and that it
> does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is nothing short of
> foolish. That saw began selling well before he tried his tactics with the
> Consumer Product Safety Commission. That alone is proof that the saw is
> selling on its own merits. Your personal feelings toward Gass are
> clouding
> your judgement.
> **********************************************************
> Let me know when they start making one with at least a 12" blade and a
> motor that is available in 208 volts, and an honest 5 HP.
>
Yep, I just helped some folks set up a a shop in an industrial warehouse
space. Everything in the back of that place is triple phase and 208 volts.
Yeah, I know, you can wire things different and get conversion units. But a
whole lot of industrial equipment is made for that kind of environment. And
if the equipment isn't available to plug into the wall in an industrial
setting, who is he making it for?
And since industrial equipment, by definition, is bigger and more powerful,
what is the problem. Folks who buy that kind of equipment really like the
option of just buying something ready to go. Just unpack it and plug it in
to the wall. I remember years ago at the Grizzly store listening to
somebody bitch about them not having their equipment in triple phase, 208
volt. Now they have some models like that. Obviously more expensive than
other models of the same tool. But the folks who need it know that the
Grizzly product is more inexpensive than similar products elsewhere. I bet
those models sell well.
And since land and buildings that can be used for shops is dwindling, the
need for equipment that can operate in that kind of environment will be in
more demand in the future. And the industrial market, although smaller, is
a market used to paying high prices, demanding a quality product and
generally safety conscious. I think he is missing the boat on this
particular market.
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> My local Rockler advertised a SawStop demonstration on a Saturday
> afternoon 3 weeks ago. The focus seemed to be on "The Hotdog
> Demonstration" along with adequate description of the current cost of
> medical procedures. I would very definitely say they were trying to sell
> with fear of one sort or another.
>
I think that is a waste of good hot dogs! They should do the demo, then cook
up the sausages on a grill. Put them on a sourdough bun and serve it up
with chili, sauerkraut and various condiments. Now that is a demo I would
go to!
Bill wrote:
>>
>
> What do you mean, "If that's how I chose to see it"? I was just
> commenting that they were trying to sell saws using fear. There was
> even what I call a "friendly stranger" mozeying around showing people
> scars where some finger tips had been stitched. I don't know whether
> he arrived in the same truck as the SawStop presenters or not. I have
> found "friendly strangers" in other venues too (notably a high-end
> music instrument store which sends them out after they watch you on
> video for a few minutes, I think). Being "provided with information"
> is one thing, being "sold-to" feels is another. One can do the
> former without using fear. SawStop obviously knows how to induce
> sales better than I do.
Whatever. For some, table saw injuries are a reality. It seems that for
you, they are fear tactics. Oh well...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/14/2012 3:13 PM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>>>>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>>>>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but
>>>> to deny that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw,
>>>> and that it does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere,
>>>> is nothing short of foolish.
>>>
>>> My local Rockler advertised a SawStop demonstration on a Saturday
>>> afternoon 3 weeks ago. The focus seemed to be on "The Hotdog
>>> Demonstration" along with adequate description of the current cost of
>>> medical procedures. I would very definitely say they were trying to
>>> sell with fear of one sort or another.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If that's how you chose to see it. I guess they should not try to market
>> the very design purpose of the saw, huh Bill?
>>
>
> What do you mean, "If that's how I chose to see it"? I was just
> commenting that they were trying to sell saws using fear.
Same marketing strategy as insurance companies, auto companies 5 star
crash ratings ads, environmental protection advocates, and the list goes
on. The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
selling fear as the only or key selling point.
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:38:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Rest assured that if you ever do decide to try out a Festool you have 30
>days to take it back if it did not live up to your expectations both in
>performance and value.
It's the fact that they may like Festool products too much that has
them scared to even try something out.
I mean hell, I've been saving for that Europe trip, and I'm damned if
I'm going to blow it all on a Festool buying frenzy.
:)
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:27:36 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/15/2012 9:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:48:45 -0700, Doug Winterburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>>> On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
>>>>>> quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me guess, you own a Toyota?
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
>>>> years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
>>>> I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
>>>> agree with my choice.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
>>> a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
>>> do until then.
>>
>> Yeah, a diesel can be great for heavy duty hauling.
>>
>> I see that they finally put out a Tundra with a 4-cyl engine. Unless
>> I'm hauling a ton of gravel, my small V-8 is way overkill for my
>> needs. I'd love to have bought a hybrid pickup but Toyota never made
>> one.
>
>Where exactly did you see that. The Toyota site does not list a 4
>banger for a Tundra.
www.toyota.com, Build your Tundra, Standard Cab, Standard Bed, oops,
4.0L V6. I misread it.
--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour
Morgans wrote:
> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but
> to deny that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw,
> and that it does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is
> nothing short of foolish. That saw began selling well before he
> tried his tactics with the Consumer Product Safety Commission. That
> alone is proof that the saw is selling on its own merits. Your
> personal feelings toward Gass are clouding your judgement.
> **********************************************************
> Let me know when they start making one with at least a 12" blade and
> a motor that is available in 208 volts, and an honest 5 HP.
>
> -- Jim in NC
Huh?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:09:11 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 7:44 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:46:49 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> Snip
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
>>>>> but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
>>>>> issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
>>>>> thousands.
>>>>
>>>> Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
>>>> small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.
>>>
>>> You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
>>> in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.
>>
>> Had you read any of the info on the case, you would have seen it
>> listed numerous times. RE: Delta, one look at the bloody price they
>> ask and you'll be able to guess why the sales numbers are slim.
>> I don't recall which document I read that gave those numbers, but it
>> was one of the legal papers. Looking online, I see that recalls give
>> you some interesting numbers.
>
>And yet SawStop sells well and is priced similar to the new Unisaw...
That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
</teensy bit of angst>
>> Ryobo 21.5k, Ridgid 3k, DeWalt 13k, and those are only recalls of
>> individual models, not the total sales. The numbers are BIG.
>>
>> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11066.html
>> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09311.html
>> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08259.html
>>
>> Here ya go: Skil 120,000 http://tinyurl.com/89elgk2
>
>Yeah that shows a lot of problems with saws sold recently.
> But does not show comparative sales.
Hard to find. Go look yourself. I'm done doing your research.
>>> No, that is just common sense. Had the manufacturers thought it would
>>> have sold they would have been making them today. They chose not to let
>>> us have the opportunity.
>>
>> PROVE IT! Don't just guess it. (See how it feels, turkey?) ;)
>
>You cannot prove something that requires common sense to some one with
>out it. ;)
I know I can't. ;)
>>>> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
>>>> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
>>>> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>>>
>>> How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell me
>>> if you think a seat belt is small in price...
>>>
>>> AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I have
>>> the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required and was
>>> only $50 more expensive.
>>
>> Not true. But I'd sure hate to pay it to Gass, now that I've seen a
>> tiny bit of his playbook.
>
>And yet you drive a car with required insurance.
WTF does insurance have to do with some speaking weasel?
>>>>>>> I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>>>>>>> regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>>>>>>> saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>>>>>>> to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
>>>>>> That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
>>>
>>> You totally missed the point. I cannot explain it any simpler.
>>
>> No, you missed it, Leon. A guard adds little to the overall price. A
>> SS could -triple- the cost of an inexpensive saw. A few bucks can be
>> saved up for, but triple the cost takes the things right out of the
>> realm of -possibility- for poor people. People who need things saved
>> for them, both then and now.
>
>No you missed the point. ;~) A few bucks 50~60 years ago equates to
>hundreds today.
It would have been 29 cents back then. Buy a clue, doooood.
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:47:42 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>Yet, Millions, and millions of (brainless?) workers earn their living
>with non-Festool tools, and manage to get by just fine.
Then what the hell do you own a shop vac for Jack? Millions and
millions of people are fine using a broom.
You can't make an argument for something and than side with the
alternative viewpoint. Your arguments are as skittish as a cat with a
can tied to its tail.
Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:39:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>> Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
>
>> To be fair Dave - plastic has served that purpose just fine for
>> years - and... it's silent.
>
> Plastic? What does plastic have to do with anything?
You know - temporary partitions to wall off the work area.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/16/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/15/2012 3:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>
> I have met a ton
>>>> of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
>>>> need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
>>>> cleaners and Festool.
>>>
>>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
>>> in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>>
>> Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.
>
> Your Mom owns a Lincoln Pickup? Cool.
> You seem rather fugal for the son of a Lincoln Pick up owner.
>
> Yes, I think Lincoln pick up owners are a bit braggadocious at best.
>
>>> BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
>>> muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
>>> pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.
>
> Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
> wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.
>
Ummm Ear Muffs Jack, your words..
But either way I would prefer not to wear any type of hearing protection
for that long of a period of time. And for the small squeeze rubber
inserts, those don't stay in place well for me.
On 4/16/2012 3:19 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 2:23 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
>
>>> Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
>>> wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.
>
>> Ummm Ear Muffs Jack, your words..
>
>> But either way I would prefer not to wear any type of hearing protection
>> for that long of a period of time. And for the small squeeze rubber
>> inserts, those don't stay in place well for me.
>
> No argument there, but since I already own a shop vac that does
> everything I need, I'll wear the ear muffs until it breaks, cause it
> sucks good enough to suck most anything that fits in it's 2 1/2" hose. I
> now see I could replace it with a super quiet 58db Dewalt for 1/2 the
> price of a Festool. I won't replace it till it breaks though, so it's
> sure to last another 35 years. I doubt I'll be able to hear anything by
> then.
>
What? what did you say? LOL Get a quieter one now so that you won't
kick yourself for waiting so long.
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:18:11 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
>me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
>issue. You are one bazaar dude.
Not that any customers would tell you. I imagine you scare the shit
out of most customers Jack.
Just the fact that you don't consider dust and noise as having an
effect on customers, goes to show your screwed up mindset. Obviously,
you're just a bit player.
On 4/15/2012 3:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
I have met a ton
>>> of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
>>> need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
>>> cleaners and Festool.
>>
>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
>> in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>
> Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.
Your Mom owns a Lincoln Pickup? Cool.
You seem rather fugal for the son of a Lincoln Pick up owner.
Yes, I think Lincoln pick up owners are a bit braggadocious at best.
>> BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
>> muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
>> pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.
Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/16/2012 2:23 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
>> Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
>> wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.
> Ummm Ear Muffs Jack, your words..
> But either way I would prefer not to wear any type of hearing protection
> for that long of a period of time. And for the small squeeze rubber
> inserts, those don't stay in place well for me.
No argument there, but since I already own a shop vac that does
everything I need, I'll wear the ear muffs until it breaks, cause it
sucks good enough to suck most anything that fits in it's 2 1/2" hose.
I now see I could replace it with a super quiet 58db Dewalt for 1/2 the
price of a Festool. I won't replace it till it breaks though, so it's
sure to last another 35 years. I doubt I'll be able to hear anything by
then.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
>>>>> a new level of interest.
>>>>
>>>> I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
>>>> tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
>>>> have been getting too used to junk.
>>>
>>> Yeah, thats the problem alright.
>>>
>>>> That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
>>>> you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
>>>> and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
>>>> realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
>>>
>>> I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
>>> offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
>>> of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
>>> need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
>>> cleaners and Festool.
>>
>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
>> in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>
> Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.
Wow! we agree! LOL
>>>> And, a much better experience in some cases.
>>>
>>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>>> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>>> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>>> and quiet it might be...
>>>
>>
>> BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
>> muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
>> pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.
>>
>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>
> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
> level is about the same: quiet.
My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
dust which I do not see.
The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running. The Festool is my power supply for my power tools and on a
job site it is some times difficult to locate an extra socket for the
vac or tool. UH Swingman? LOL
And no the sound level is no where close to the same. The Festool vac
is one of the quietest power tools that I own.
Working in a clients home and not bringing excess noise and dust is a
big plus. About 4 years ago I refaced a customer kitchen cabinet with
1/8" think veneer that I cut. After the glue dried over night the
customer had taped off all the cabinet openings from the inside to keep
dust out, the face frames fronts and inside edges were exposed.
I went through 3 grits of paper and there was absolutely little to no
dust on the face frame horizontal surfaces. He napped while I did the
sanding. He was shocked that He did not hear the vac and was amazed
that there was no film of dust covering every thing.
That is why I would buy this caliber vac again. I originally simply did
not want to hear the noise when using the Domino. I got a lot of bonus
features I had not dreamed of when I originally bought.
>
> I loved playing with that CT 26, but the price was out of my reach.
>
> --
> A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
> one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
> -- Louis L'Amour
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
>>>> a new level of interest.
>>>
>>> I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
>>> tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
>>> have been getting too used to junk.
>>
>> Yeah, thats the problem alright.
>>
>>> That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
>>> you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
>>> and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
>>> realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.
>>
>> I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
>> offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
>> of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
>> need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
>> cleaners and Festool.
>
>Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
>in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.
>>> And, a much better experience in some cases.
>>
>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>> and quiet it might be...
>>
>
>BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
>muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
>pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.
>
>Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.
I loved playing with that CT 26, but the price was out of my reach.
--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour
Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>>
>>
>> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but
>> to deny that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw,
>> and that it does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere,
>> is nothing short of foolish.
>
> My local Rockler advertised a SawStop demonstration on a Saturday
> afternoon 3 weeks ago. The focus seemed to be on "The Hotdog
> Demonstration" along with adequate description of the current cost of
> medical procedures. I would very definitely say they were trying to
> sell with fear of one sort or another.
>
>
If that's how you chose to see it. I guess they should not try to market
the very design purpose of the saw, huh Bill?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but to deny
that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw, and that it
does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is nothing short of
foolish. That saw began selling well before he tried his tactics with the
Consumer Product Safety Commission. That alone is proof that the saw is
selling on its own merits. Your personal feelings toward Gass are clouding
your judgement.
**********************************************************
Let me know when they start making one with at least a 12" blade and a motor
that is available in 208 volts, and an honest 5 HP.
-- Jim in NC
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>
>
> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but to deny
> that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw, and that it
> does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere, is nothing short of
> foolish.
My local Rockler advertised a SawStop demonstration on a Saturday
afternoon 3 weeks ago. The focus seemed to be on "The Hotdog
Demonstration" along with adequate description of the current cost of
medical procedures. I would very definitely say they were trying to
sell with fear of one sort or another.
That saw began selling well before he tried his tactics with the
> Consumer Product Safety Commission. That alone is proof that the saw is
> selling on its own merits. Your personal feelings toward Gass are clouding
> your judgement.
>
>
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:36:39 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 4:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>> Jeeeehhhaysuuuuuus ...if there was some way to make money off of sheer
>>> hardheaded, unbending, WILLFUL ignorance, we could all get rich right
>>> here!
>>>
>>> How hard is it to understand that if you can't afford it, or don't make
>>> a living with your tools, that some tool brands, like FESTOOL, may not
>>> "be right for you"?
>>>
>>> I mean, ferrcirssakes, ask your farking doctor ... and if you don't have
>>> one, get one ... because you need one.
>>
>> ...and here I thought Leon was you bud???
>>
>
>That was pointed at Larry
Jeeze, and just when I -finally- agreed with Jack...
--
You can either hold yourself up to the unrealistic standards of others,
or ignore them and concentrate on being happy with yourself as you are.
-- Jeph Jacques
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:07:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/16/2012 4:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
>>> me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
>>> issue. You are one bazaar dude.
>>
>> I have to agree. I don't do the amount of work that Swingman and Leon do
>> for other people, but in all of the work that I have done for others (and
>> that is not an inconsequential amount of work) on site, I have never heard a
>> complaint about the level of noise or the amount of dust in the containment
>> area - or even slightly outside of it. I'd say that some amount of that is
>> expected. I imagine there may be very high end jobs where it may be a
>> factor, but how many of us really ever find ourselves in that environment?
>> If we do - how many times?
>>
>
>I know that you will be understand what I am going to say here. Wen I
>use loud equipment I never got complaints either.
>
>Now that I use quieter and better equipment I some how stay busier, get
>more repeat customers, and referrals. I am more productive.
A guy can't ask for much more than that, can he?
Congrats, Mr. Feisty Festooler.
--
You can either hold yourself up to the unrealistic standards of others,
or ignore them and concentrate on being happy with yourself as you are.
-- Jeph Jacques
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>>
>> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>> level is about the same: quiet.
>
>My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
>Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
>Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
>dust which I do not see.
You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.
>The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
the next room, or possibly in the same room.
>matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
>vac running.
Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running. <shrug>
>The Festool is my power supply for my power tools and on a
>job site it is some times difficult to locate an extra socket for the
>vac or tool. UH Swingman? LOL
There's a good point. Very handy built-in. But switches are
available separately for both 120 and 240v systems.
http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/iVac-Switch-Box/T21636
--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:29:30 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
>> by the customer and the user.
>Quieter I can almost believe - but even that I'm not sure about. Better?
>Come on Leon - how would they even know?
And *that* is part of your problem. You can't see that quieter and
more efficient dust control *is* better.
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:29:30 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>> But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are
>>> appreciated by the customer and the user.
>
>> Quieter I can almost believe - but even that I'm not sure about.
>> Better? Come on Leon - how would they even know?
>
> And *that* is part of your problem. You can't see that quieter and
> more efficient dust control *is* better.
You missed my point Dave. I was not referencing the value to Leon, I was
referencing the customer's perceived value. What does the customer really
even know about the tools a tradesman uses? They know one thing - I got
what I wanted.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 06:36:04 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> Plastic? What does plastic have to do with anything?
>You know - temporary partitions to wall off the work area.
Oh. Ok, but it doesn't do much for noise. It takes time to put up and
take down and there's still a sweep up to do. The Festool collection
system is much like the Domino. Sure, in the past they used something
else, but now there's something that is faster, cleaner, quieter and
more capable.
There's some things that just make sense and this is one of them.
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:48:45 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
>>>> quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>>>
>>> Let me guess, you own a Toyota?
>>
>> Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
>> years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
>> I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
>> agree with my choice.
>
>
>I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
>a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
>do until then.
Yeah, a diesel can be great for heavy duty hauling.
I see that they finally put out a Tundra with a 4-cyl engine. Unless
I'm hauling a ton of gravel, my small V-8 is way overkill for my
needs. I'd love to have bought a hybrid pickup but Toyota never made
one.
--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour
On 4/15/2012 9:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:48:45 -0700, Doug Winterburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
>>>>> quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.
>>>>
>>>> Let me guess, you own a Toyota?
>>>
>>> Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
>>> years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
>>> I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
>>> agree with my choice.
>>
>>
>> I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
>> a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
>> do until then.
>
> Yeah, a diesel can be great for heavy duty hauling.
>
> I see that they finally put out a Tundra with a 4-cyl engine. Unless
> I'm hauling a ton of gravel, my small V-8 is way overkill for my
> needs. I'd love to have bought a hybrid pickup but Toyota never made
> one.
Where exactly did you see that. The Toyota site does not list a 4
banger for a Tundra.
On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>>>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>>>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>>>
>>> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>>> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>>> level is about the same: quiet.
>>
>> My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
>> Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
>> Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
>> dust which I do not see.
>
> You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
> 1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
> out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.
>
>
>> The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
>
> Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
> other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
> the next room, or possibly in the same room.
>
>
>> matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
>> vac running.
>
> Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.<shrug>
I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
customers house....
>
>
>> The Festool is my power supply for my power tools and on a
>> job site it is some times difficult to locate an extra socket for the
>> vac or tool. UH Swingman? LOL
>
> There's a good point. Very handy built-in. But switches are
> available separately for both 120 and 240v systems.
> http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/iVac-Switch-Box/T21636
And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
out of the question. Time is money.
>
> --
> A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
> one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
> -- Louis L'Amour
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's because they've got all the braindead safety nazis onboard.
>>>> Is Gass gonna put out a new book titled _SELL WITH FEAR_, maybe?
>>>> </teensy bit of angst>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh come on Larry. I understand your angst with Gass' approach, but
>>> to deny that the saw is selling because it is a very well built saw,
>>> and that it does offer a degree of safety not available elsewhere,
>>> is nothing short of foolish.
>>
>> My local Rockler advertised a SawStop demonstration on a Saturday
>> afternoon 3 weeks ago. The focus seemed to be on "The Hotdog
>> Demonstration" along with adequate description of the current cost of
>> medical procedures. I would very definitely say they were trying to
>> sell with fear of one sort or another.
>>
>>
>
> If that's how you chose to see it. I guess they should not try to market
> the very design purpose of the saw, huh Bill?
>
What do you mean, "If that's how I chose to see it"? I was just
commenting that they were trying to sell saws using fear. There was even
what I call a "friendly stranger" mozeying around showing people scars
where some finger tips had been stitched. I don't know whether he
arrived in the same truck as the SawStop presenters or not. I have found
"friendly strangers" in other venues too (notably a high-end music
instrument store which sends them out after they watch you on video for
a few minutes, I think). Being "provided with information" is one thing,
being "sold-to" feels is another. One can do the former without using
fear. SawStop obviously knows how to induce sales better than I do.
On 4/16/2012 9:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:16 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>>>>>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>>>>>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>>>>> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>>>>> level is about the same: quiet.
>>>>
>>>> My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
>>>> Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
>>>> Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
>>>> dust which I do not see.
>>>
>>> You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
>>> 1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
>>> out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
>>>
>>> Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
>>> other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
>>> the next room, or possibly in the same room.
>>>
>>>
>>>> matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
>>>> vac running.
>>>
>>> Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.<shrug>
>>
>> I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
>> customers house....
>>
>
>> And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
>> things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
>> out of the question. Time is money.
>
> Jesus H. Christ! OK, for your diminished reading capacity, see the
> pretty pictures of the style of _portable_ DCs to which I referred:
> http://tinyurl.com/6txsmpc
> http://tinyurl.com/6t8cn84
> http://tinyurl.com/7aovct9
> I guess they're no longer $100. ;)
If that is what floats your boat great. I'll pass.
Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> But there are quieter ones at 1/2 the price, if noise is that big an
> issue. The ONLY complaint I have with mine is the noise, and I can't
> hear it with my ear muffs on.
The Ridgid WD1450 is around $100 and reasonably quiet. Ridgid, AFAIK,
hasn't posted decible ratings, so there's no way to compare. I would guess
it's in the mid-70's.
> That's good to know. Another thing, besides sucking power and noise,
> I want to know is the hose, is it standard 2 1/2" hose or proprietary
> hose? I hate proprietary stuff.
I do too. Shop-vac has established a couple very common hose sizes here in
the US (probably the same in Canada) that work well. Constantly adapting
to other sizes is an unnecessary pain.
> ALL this talk about quiet made me DAGS. A Dewalt D27905 which sells at
> less than 1/2 the price of a Festool, lists as 58 decibels, vs the
> loud Festool, which is 72 decibels. My ShopVac must be about a
> million.
>
> I can't hear anything running with my shop vac, cause I have to wear
> ear muffs or my ears bleed... I can run my chain saw w/o ear muffs,
> and it is loud. My shop vac is not just loud, it actually hurts my
> ears with the high pitched, piercing, screaming noise it makes. I got
> it in 1975 or 76, so can't compare to new stuff.
>
That would be grounds for me to replace the tool. A quiet vacuum is a
considerable upgrade on a loud noisy one. Plus, many new vacuum designs
limit the amount of dust they throw into the air (I've watched a cloud form
over a cheap shop vac), but the old one might do that just fine.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
Puckdropper wrote:
>
> The Ridgid WD1450 is around $100 and reasonably quiet. Ridgid, AFAIK,
> hasn't posted decible ratings, so there's no way to compare. I would
> guess it's in the mid-70's.70
Just be careful guessing at dB levels - they aren't what would seem
intuitive to you. Normal speach is around 65 dB, so your guess at mid-70's
might just be off by a lot more than you would think.
>
> That would be grounds for me to replace the tool. A quiet vacuum is a
> considerable upgrade on a loud noisy one. Plus, many new vacuum
> designs limit the amount of dust they throw into the air (I've
> watched a cloud form over a cheap shop vac), but the old one might do
> that just fine.
>
Likewise - I used to have an old Craftsman 16 gallon screamer. Loud - and
it blew as much out the exhaust port as it vacuumed up! Junked it in favor
of a small Ridgid, and I've never seen any blow out from it - even when
cleaning up sheetrock mess.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Swingman wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 9:10 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Admitedly, I am not very familiar with the Domino, so maybe there is
>> something strangely unique about it that inspires people today. That
>> said - that's a lot different than a vacuum that is a little
>> quieter, which I believe is where this all started. If Domino is
>> unique, then great - it's a cool marketing tool for as long as that
>> fad lasts.
>
> Describing the domino as "fad"? ... in the interest of friendship, I'm
> going to ignore that one, Mike, and I don't even own one. :)
>
It seemed that Leon described the customer's interest to have been in the
joint itself - the visible effect that they saw. I was not speaking about
the joint as a mechanical thing.
>
>> As for a vacuum... it
>> may be a great vacuum and I have not suggested otherwise. I only
>> questioned the statements that it would be perceived as a great
>> value by the customer.
>
> What a lot of folks miss who have never used them in an actual
> woodworking situation to actually build something, on the job site or
> shop, revolves around the word "system".
>
> These components, like the Domino/CT22, or the TS75/CT22 or any of the
> sanders/CT22 et al, are designed to work together as a single unit.
>
> And that fact obviously can't be appreciated with words alone ...
> which is much more than painfully obvious hereabouts. :)
System? Hell - how do we equate that to conversations about paint or sex?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:35:31 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> sure to last another 35 years. I doubt I'll be able to hear
>>> anything by then.
>
>> What? what did you say? LOL Get a quieter one now so that you
>> won't kick yourself for waiting so long.
>
> Loss of hearing is supposed to be one of the most isolating things
> when it comes to losing a sense. But, you're wasting your time with
> Jack. He isolated himself a long, long time ago.
Hey! All of us old farts lose our hearing. It's part of what helps us
survive marriage! Jack is ok - you just gotta get to know him a bit.
There's a lot more there than might appear in a usenet forum - like all of
us.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/16/2012 9:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:16 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>>>>>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>>>>>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>>>>> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>>>>> level is about the same: quiet.
>>>>
>>>> My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
>>>> Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
>>>> Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
>>>> dust which I do not see.
>>>
>>> You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
>>> 1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
>>> out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
>>>
>>> Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
>>> other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
>>> the next room, or possibly in the same room.
>>>
>>>
>>>> matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
>>>> vac running.
>>>
>>> Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.<shrug>
>>
>> I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
>> customers house....
>>
>
>> And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
>> things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
>> out of the question. Time is money.
>
> Jesus H. Christ! OK, for your diminished reading capacity, see the
> pretty pictures of the style of _portable_ DCs to which I referred:
> http://tinyurl.com/6txsmpc
> http://tinyurl.com/6t8cn84
> http://tinyurl.com/7aovct9
> I guess they're no longer $100. ;)
FOR YOUR diminished read capacity... you asked,
What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.
You asked why I am not using MY DC..
I gave my answer and then you think I suggest to buy a 3rd dust
collection machine when I have everything I need already!!!
If you could stay focused as to what you ask and apply my answers to
YOUR SPECIFIC questions you might learn something.
Bun nooooo I guess you just like to be contrary.
On 4/16/2012 9:10 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Admitedly, I am not very familiar with the Domino, so maybe there is
> something strangely unique about it that inspires people today. That said -
> that's a lot different than a vacuum that is a little quieter, which I
> believe is where this all started. If Domino is unique, then great - it's a
> cool marketing tool for as long as that fad lasts.
Describing the domino as "fad"? ... in the interest of friendship, I'm
going to ignore that one, Mike, and I don't even own one. :)
> As for a vacuum... it
> may be a great vacuum and I have not suggested otherwise. I only questioned
> the statements that it would be perceived as a great value by the customer.
What a lot of folks miss who have never used them in an actual
woodworking situation to actually build something, on the job site or
shop, revolves around the word "system".
These components, like the Domino/CT22, or the TS75/CT22 or any of the
sanders/CT22 et al, are designed to work together as a single unit.
And that fact obviously can't be appreciated with words alone ... which
is much more than painfully obvious hereabouts. :)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:04:40 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me -
>> you and Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work,
>> because of the work you perform - not because of your tools.
>> Doubtful the customer really based their decisions on the tools you
>> used.
>
> You just don't see it. The customers may not know or care about the
> brand of tools they use, but everyday if they're onsite, they
> experience the benefit of those tools. A job gets done a little
> faster, it might be a little less noisy, whatever the reason, if the
> tools contributed even partially to those things, then they are a
> factor, especially with referrals.
>
> As you've previously read, the Dominos that Leon uses to pin his
> drawer fronts, he uses as a marketing tool. It's a simple enough
> procedure to make them, but they do have an impact. And unless one
> wants to go commercial with some truly expensive big machines, the
> Domino is the only tool that can make them as fast and as precisely as
> it does.
Admitedly, I am not very familiar with the Domino, so maybe there is
something strangely unique about it that inspires people today. That said -
that's a lot different than a vacuum that is a little quieter, which I
believe is where this all started. If Domino is unique, then great - it's a
cool marketing tool for as long as that fad lasts. As for a vacuum... it
may be a great vacuum and I have not suggested otherwise. I only questioned
the statements that it would be perceived as a great value by the customer.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
>>>>> hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
>>>>> If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.
>>>>
>>>> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>>>> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>>>> level is about the same: quiet.
>>>
>>> My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
>>> Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
>>> Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
>>> dust which I do not see.
>>
>> You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
>> 1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
>> out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.
>>
>>
>>> The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
>>
>> Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
>> other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
>> the next room, or possibly in the same room.
>>
>>
>>> matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
>>> vac running.
>>
>> Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.<shrug>
>
>I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
>customers house....
>
>And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
>things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
>out of the question. Time is money.
Jesus H. Christ! OK, for your diminished reading capacity, see the
pretty pictures of the style of _portable_ DCs to which I referred:
http://tinyurl.com/6txsmpc
http://tinyurl.com/6t8cn84
http://tinyurl.com/7aovct9
I guess they're no longer $100. ;)
--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour
On 4/16/2012 10:45 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 9:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>> What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
>>>>>> collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
>>>>>> level is about the same: quiet.
I don't use mine because I don't like super fine dust going to my DC.
My DC has a 1" deep pan that collects powder that the metal filter
misses. Both the metal pan and the metal filter see ONLY fine powder.
The more I use it for sanding tasks, the quicker the filter gather
powder. I usually clean it 2-3 time a year, and I do use it for my 48"
belt/disk sander. I wear ear muffs with the screaming shop vac.
>>>>> The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
But there are quieter ones at 1/2 the price, if noise is that big an
issue. The ONLY complaint I have with mine is the noise, and I can't
hear it with my ear muffs on.
>>>> Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
>>>> other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
>>>> the next room, or possibly in the same room.
That's good to know. Another thing, besides sucking power and noise, I
want to know is the hose, is it standard 2 1/2" hose or proprietary
hose? I hate proprietary stuff.
>>>>> matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
>>>>> vac running.
ALL this talk about quiet made me DAGS. A Dewalt D27905 which sells at
less than 1/2 the price of a Festool, lists as 58 decibels, vs the loud
Festool, which is 72 decibels. My ShopVac must be about a million.
I can't hear anything running with my shop vac, cause I have to wear ear
muffs or my ears bleed... I can run my chain saw w/o ear muffs, and it
is loud. My shop vac is not just loud, it actually hurts my ears with
the high pitched, piercing, screaming noise it makes. I got it in 1975
or 76, so can't compare to new stuff.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:04:40 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you and
>Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
>you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really based
>their decisions on the tools you used.
You just don't see it. The customers may not know or care about the
brand of tools they use, but everyday if they're onsite, they
experience the benefit of those tools. A job gets done a little
faster, it might be a little less noisy, whatever the reason, if the
tools contributed even partially to those things, then they are a
factor, especially with referrals.
As you've previously read, the Dominos that Leon uses to pin his
drawer fronts, he uses as a marketing tool. It's a simple enough
procedure to make them, but they do have an impact. And unless one
wants to go commercial with some truly expensive big machines, the
Domino is the only tool that can make them as fast and as precisely as
it does.
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:35:31 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> sure to last another 35 years. I doubt I'll be able to hear anything by
>> then.
>What? what did you say? LOL Get a quieter one now so that you won't
>kick yourself for waiting so long.
Loss of hearing is supposed to be one of the most isolating things
when it comes to losing a sense. But, you're wasting your time with
Jack. He isolated himself a long, long time ago.
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> **********************************************************
> Let me know when they start making one with at least a 12" blade and
> a motor that is available in 208 volts, and an honest 5 HP.
>
> -- Jim in NC
Huh?
************************************************************
Break it down piece by piece.
I teach carpentry in NC public schools.
The state has equipment minimum standards.
It specifies the table saw to be at least 12".
The school has 3 phase power, and all of the single phase power is 208
volts. A 240 volt saw sucks running at 208 volts. It is weak, heats up the
motor and the overload heaters in the magnetic starter way faster than they
would if the voltage was correct.
We frequently run the saw in an industrial manner, so it is my requirement
to be able to rip green 4 x 4 and bigger or hardwood 4 x 4 and bigger. I
like to have 5 HP to do that with power to spare, for long periods of time.
-- Jim in NC
> It's easy to break it down piece by piece when you lay it out.
> Otherwise -
> it left a lot to wonder about.
Especially when the taxpayer foots the bill ...
******************************************
Actually, not.
We build a house and sell it. That pays for any (infrequent) major
equipment purchases. I get hammers and portable power tools with school
funds, but most of that is also paid for by proceeds of the house.
-- Jim in NC
On 4/15/2012 9:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> **********************************************************
>>> Let me know when they start making one with at least a 12" blade and
>>> a motor that is available in 208 volts, and an honest 5 HP.
>>>
>>> -- Jim in NC
>>
>> Huh?
>> ************************************************************
>>
>> Break it down piece by piece.
>> I teach carpentry in NC public schools.
>> The state has equipment minimum standards.
>> It specifies the table saw to be at least 12".
>> The school has 3 phase power, and all of the single phase power is 208
>> volts. A 240 volt saw sucks running at 208 volts. It is weak, heats
>> up the motor and the overload heaters in the magnetic starter way
>> faster than they would if the voltage was correct.
>> We frequently run the saw in an industrial manner, so it is my
>> requirement to be able to rip green 4 x 4 and bigger or hardwood 4 x
>> 4 and bigger. I like to have 5 HP to do that with power to spare,
>> for long periods of time.
>> -- Jim in NC
>
> It's easy to break it down piece by piece when you lay it out. Otherwise -
> it left a lot to wonder about.
Especially when the taxpayer foots the bill ...
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Swingman wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones
>> who are most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One
>> has to wonder...
>
> Welcome to the sound of a once powerful, now almost non-existent,
> manufacturing sector as it takes its dying gasps, kept alive by tax
> payer bailouts and government intervention ... the product of fools,
> and damned fools.
Then maybe we should call it Profit-think, or CEO-think. The MBA thing had
a valid definition back when GM was making stupid decisions based on a penny
savings per car, but it does not reflect the most of the business world
today. Profit is profit and that has always been the primary motive of any
business - long before the GM MBA stuff. To put all profit oriented
thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted. The
alternative is to assume that business should be happy to run at a loss?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Apr 7, 9:54=A0pm, "Pete S" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think there are a lot of people who buy their lumber S2S or better at a
> store and then work with those boards. =A0Assuming that you select only t=
he
> good straight =A0stock before you plunk down the big bucks, =A0you alread=
y have
> "jointed" and planed stock.
> If that is the case for you, then you could expect that the board is pret=
ty
> flat and not twisted. =A0Then you don't need a wide jointer. =A0But you w=
ould
> still need a wider planer if reducing the thickness of an already good bo=
ard
> for some particular purpose.
>
> =A0 On the other hand, if you work with =A0a lot of rough sawn lumber, as=
I do,
> you are working with twisted, cupped and bowed stuff real often. =A0I cou=
ld
> really use a =A0jointer wider than my 6 inch in this case. =A0But come pe=
ople
> have told me that, even then,
> they simply cut boards down to fit the jointer and glue up for wider stoc=
k.
>
> Pete Stanaitis
> ---------------
I you are buying finished hardwood at the big box stores, and you buy
much of it, you can easily justify a planer and jointer. I was
finishing a project some time ago and needed to run to HD to buy a
piece of red oak. It was a nice clear piece of 1x6, 8'. Then I made
the mistake of figuring the price per board foot - $7.50. That
stings when you buy most of your Oak under $2.
RonB
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
> the good the bad and the ugly.
Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.
--
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On 4/10/2012 1:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> To put all profit oriented
> thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted.
And who do you know who did that? Or are you just following Jack's
erroneous assumption instead of reading for yourself?
(Hint: You might want to check out the _context_ of my first reply)
--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.
And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and ply.
Even Veneer is outrageous in price and sometimes quality.
But it is the cards we are dealt. When you win the lottery and get that
home, give me a call, I'll take care of that forrest for you. You'll be
too rich to want to play with wood.
8>)
Happy Easter.
On 4/8/2012 2:18 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 10:50:11 -0400, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
>> That hammer is awesome. I like the doweling and mortising capability in
>> one unit. Wooo hooo.
>>> http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/jointerplaners/jointer-planer-a3-41--410-mm.html
>
> There's only one problem. As time goes by machines are getting better
> and more capable, but the quality of available wood is diminishing
> right in front of our eyes. Of course, living in the centre of a city
> will do that to you.
>
> When I win the lottery and can afford all these great new tools, I'll
> be moving to some house on a pristine lake with a substantial stand of
> harvestable trees around me. Or at the very least, a decent lumber
> yard within traveling distance.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
>yard. ;~)
>I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
>salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
>rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.
I've always wondered how that works? What's to stop a nearby neighbour
from sinking an oil well in his back yard? My thought is that they'd
both be siphoning from the same pool of oil. Does the first neighbour
have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil? How do they
determine who owns what and who has a right to access it? Does a
surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
square surface land rights? And finally, how deep do those rights go?
Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.
On 4/12/2012 7:41 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 9:25 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
>>> yard. ;~)
>>
>>> I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
>>> salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
>>> rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.
>>
>> I've always wondered how that works? What's to stop a nearby neighbour
>> from sinking an oil well in his back yard? My thought is that they'd
>> both be siphoning from the same pool of oil. Does the first neighbour
>> have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil? How do they
>> determine who owns what and who has a right to access it? Does a
>> surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
>> square surface land rights? And finally, how deep do those rights go?
>>
>> Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.
>
> In addition to Swingman's comments, IIRC there is also
>
> 1. Deed Restrictions.
But, you stand a good chance of not winning by relying on "deed
restrictions" in that regard in a Texas court. :)
In Texas the "mineral estate" has been historically held to be the
dominant estate over the "surface estate".
Case law has made it very difficult to prohibit the owner of the
minerals from exercising the enjoyment of his rights as a mineral owner,
including physically drilling on the "surface estate", deed restrictions
be damned. :)
IOW, theoretically, at least in Texas and concerning these two separate
estates, you can't prohibit/nullify the property rights of a third
party, by contract between the two parties to a deed on the surface of
that land.
That said, as in all legal matters, you may have to sue to find out, and
be in for a rude surprise, for each specific case. :)
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On 4/11/2012 9:25 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
>> yard. ;~)
>
>> I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
>> salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
>> rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.
>
> I've always wondered how that works? What's to stop a nearby neighbour
> from sinking an oil well in his back yard? My thought is that they'd
> both be siphoning from the same pool of oil. Does the first neighbour
> have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil? How do they
> determine who owns what and who has a right to access it? Does a
> surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
> square surface land rights? And finally, how deep do those rights go?
>
> Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.
In addition to Swingman's comments, IIRC there is also
1. Deed Restrictions.
This particular well is on about 1 acre piece of land that is accessed
from a road that is outside of the neighborhood and it was there long
before the land was developed into a master planed community.
This particular well is serviced with the rig about every 12 months for
a couple of weeks. Normally you do not see the pump behind the 8' tall
fence.
[email protected] wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems
> that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the
> planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as
> large?
So that you can get a board of reasonable width to a given thickness and
still have the sides parallel. You can skinny one down on a joiner but the
sides are unlikely to wind up parallel.
Joiners are best for getting a straight *edge*; consequently, width of the
machine is of less importance. You can get wide joiners
too...12"...16""...all you have to do is spring for the big bucks.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 4/7/2012 2:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It
> seems that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the
> planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
You're limiting your looking too much, then...
<http://www.grizzly.com/products/category/450000>
<http://www.grizzly.com/products/category/490000>
for a sample selection of what is easily available at reasonable price
points...obviously higher capacity machines are higher cost.
These, of course, don't even begin to cover the "real" industrial-sized
machines.
The advantage of a larger jointer is twofold--the surface width is the
obvious one to easily surface larger stock in preparation for the planer
but the second is the longer bed length. There's actually a third in
that the extra mass alone is beneficial in any piece of gear as well.
There's a tendency here to minimize the value of a jointer to simply the
single operation of jointing edges--this is a great under-utilization of
the machine. It's also capable of rabbeting, tapering, as well as the
obvious. If you can find the room and have the budget, I recommend at
least 8". If room and cost are real constraints, consider one of the
newer combo machines that are 12-13" planer/jointer-in-one at reasonable
cost. FWW had a review of several just within the last couple of issues.
--
On 4/8/2012 8:08 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/7/2012 8:04 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Not...
>
> Not?????
>
>> Jointers come in 4,6,8,and 12 inch models. The most common hobbiest is
>> the 6" If you can afford it 8" is better.
>
>
> A slight amount of research on many manufacturers web sites reveals,
>
> 16" and 17" jointers
>
...
>
> or a 20 incher
>
...
or a 24...
<http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/jointers/heavy.htm>
:)
--
On 4/8/2012 8:06 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 07:59:14 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> And for what it is worth the combination jointer/planer is beginning to
>> be more common place. It is typically less expensive than buying a
>> stationary jointer and stationary planer and takes up half the room.
>> http://www.amazon.com/JET-JJP-12-12-Inch-Jointer-Planer/dp/B0011TKF8G/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1333889764&sr=8-25
>
> No, no no. We have to go with quality here.
> http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/jointerplaners/jointer-planer-a3-41--410-mm.html
Maybe you were looking for...
<http://www.olivermachinery.net/index.php?node=machines&type_id=3&model=5240>
:)
--
On 4/7/2012 9:54 PM, Pete S wrote:
> I think there are a lot of people who buy their lumber S2S or better at a store
> and then work with those boards. Assuming that you select only the good
> straight stock before you plunk down the big bucks, you already have "jointed"
> and planed stock.
> If that is the case for you, then you could expect that the board is pretty
> flat and not twisted. Then you don't need a wide jointer. But you would still
> need a wider planer if reducing the thickness of an already good board for some
> particular purpose.
>
> On the other hand, if you work with a lot of rough sawn lumber, as I do, you
> are working with twisted, cupped and bowed stuff real often. I could really use
> a jointer wider than my 6 inch in this case. But come people have told me that,
> even then,
> they simply cut boards down to fit the jointer and glue up for wider stock.
FYI/FWIW, if you're going to rip wide boards that are bowed or twisted down to
a width that's manageable on your jointer, you'd better be doing it on a
bandsaw and not a tablesaw. Ripping a twisted board on a tablesaw is dangerous
as hell.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 4/8/2012 9:21 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 4/8/2012 8:08 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/7/2012 8:04 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Not...
>>
>> Not?????
>>
>>> Jointers come in 4,6,8,and 12 inch models. The most common hobbiest is
>>> the 6" If you can afford it 8" is better.
>>
>>
>> A slight amount of research on many manufacturers web sites reveals,
>>
>> 16" and 17" jointers
>>
> ....
>
>>
>> or a 20 incher
>>
> ....
>
> or a 24...
>
> <http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/jointers/heavy.htm>
...
I've seen (I believe it was Oliver but been too long ago for absolute
certain and OWWM doesn't have one altho that's certainly not conclusive)
a 30". 36" is largest I've ever heard of in actual configuration we
think of as a jointer; there are yet larger "facers" but other than
stumbling on the one Oliver below I didn't look further for examples.
So, after a little looking
30"
<http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=3156>
An Oliver 30" facer
<http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=2688>
and everybody's absolute need, the 36
http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=7479
--
On 4/7/2012 10:44 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> RonB wrote:
>
>> Apparently Ryobi adopted the Craftsman business
>> model because it has been down hill since the late 90's. Shop
>> carefully and use on-line reviews before you end up buying a bargain
>> that will frustrate you for as long as you own the machine.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, Ryobi (which used to be pretty decent stuff at one time), has
> become the universal junk line - across all of their product set. Their
> power equipment is pure junk these days.
>
Ryobi is made by the same Chinese company as Ridgid power tools and
Milwaukee power tools are.
Apparently The same company that makes Ryobi tools also makes Craftsman
and Mastercraft, however I was always under the Impression that
Craftsman were made by the most part, by Skil and Craftsman Professional
by Bosch.
Skil and Ryobi power tools were owned by the same company in the 1990s
but that is no longer the case.
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
would likely never have come to be. Except of course, when you create
a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.
As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
made, unique product.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/11/2012 10:44 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:53:54 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Well said!
>> (Hitting the 'send now' button a little fast aren't you Leon? :) )
>
>LOL.... Intentionally blank.
I have to say, it was one of your more cogent postings :-)
On 4/12/2012 12:14 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 4/11/2012 10:44 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:53:54 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well said!
>>> (Hitting the 'send now' button a little fast aren't you Leon? :) )
>>
>> LOL.... Intentionally blank.
>
> I have to say, it was one of your more cogent postings :-)
Easier for you to understand, was it Scott? ;~)
On 4/11/2012 7:48 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>
> Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
> would likely never have come to be.
WHAT? Where'd you get that from?
Except of course, when you create
> a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
> demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.
The unique product forces copy cats which are often offered at less
money to get mkt share.
>
> As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
> made, unique product.
No one has jumped on this yet. But look at Lamello. They were copied
almost immediately.
On 4/11/2012 6:48 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>
> Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
> would likely never have come to be.
Just the opposite. Historically, almost all lower end stuff is solely
the result of copying the already successful, higher end stuff.
> Except of course, when you create
> a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
> demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.
All successful products are unique at first ... "better mousetraps", so
to speak.
> As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
> made, unique product.
A point in support ... when the patent runs out, there will surely be
many lower end copies of the Domino, just as has been done with the Fein
Multi-tool.
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On 4/11/2012 6:48 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>
> Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
> would likely never have come to be. Except of course, when you create
> a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
> demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.
>
> As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
> made, unique product.
Or take the Fein Multimaster.. There are now cheap and crap versions
made by other manufacturers.
On 4/11/2012 10:44 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:53:54 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
> Well said!
> (Hitting the 'send now' button a little fast aren't you Leon? :) )
LOL.... Intentionally blank. Borrowing a tactic from Keith Bond. The
banter was like me saying red him saying green. Pick the opposite for a
response.
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s....
No, don't think so.
Maybe you're thinking of the Homelite homeowner outdoor tools. Deere
did own Homelite for a while and divested themselves of it (to TTI) but
afaik never Ryobi.
> Deere & Co acquires Textron Inc-Homelite Division from Textron Inc Aug 29, 1994
> TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite Consumer from
> Deere & Co TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite
> Consumer from Deere & Co Nov 16, 2001
<http://www.alacrastore.com/mergers-acquisitions/Deere_Company-1004803>
for detailed listing of Deere acquisitions/dispositions from early 80s
forward.
--
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>
> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
> since to the ridiculous extreme of
> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
> mentality.
>
And in the most recent decades--don't worry about the share-holders or
the tax payers while you're at at!
On 4/9/2012 12:05 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> The idea of a wider planer is to take glue ups and clean them up. since
>> most hobbyist units are only 12-13 inches you work in groups of glue ups.
>>
> Well... you really shouldn't run a glue up through a planer. The
> glue will play hell with your blades. No glue, no poaint, just wood
> ro the blades die. Also, if you have any spring or cup in your glue
> up theplaner might crack the glue joint.
>
> Get a drum sander or wide belt sander if you want to flatten glue ups.
Disagree on both counts. As long as it is huge globs of a very hard
glue, the glue isn't as hard as most woods and won't do any significant
damage to a planer (or jointer) knife.
And, as has been demonstrated in many tests, a good glueline joint is
stronger than the surrounding wood; if there's that severe a cup and
there's a failure, odds are very high it will be the wood that fails,
not the glueline.
Not that having a wide belt sander isn't a good thing but certainly it's
not a verboten to plane down a glue up.
--
On 4/7/2012 12:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
>
> Thanks!
I don't think you have been looking at "commercial grade" equipment if
that's all you have seen.
A 6" jointer is about the smallest you can buy.
A 12" planer is also quite small by commercial standards.
Here are a few examples:
http://www.deltamachinery.com/products/jointers
http://www.deltamachinery.com/products/planers
The size depends on the stock you work with and
the amount of money you have.
The 6" jointer is fine for smaller, shorter stock,
while the 8" is for wider and longer stock. The 8"
jointer normally has a MUCH longer table,ex:
6" jointer 46"
8" jointer 76"
The planers also follow similar patterns.
If you buy s4s lumber, a big jointer is not needed
but if you buy rough cut, the need is there for the
jointer and the planer.
The smaller "lunch box" planer(12") is fine for many shops
and is MUCH cheaper to get into. The next step up is a
15" and that's when price makes a real difference. You
are paying for bigger, much more powerful motors and heavier
equipment. a standard 15" planer is "about" 340 lbs, while the
12" is 76 lbs.
On 4/9/2012 1:06 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 4/7/2012 12:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems
>> that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers
>> are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>>
>> I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> I don't think you have been looking at "commercial grade" equipment if
> that's all you have seen.
>
> A 6" jointer is about the smallest you can buy.
...
<http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/95>
A nicely built little 4" jointer. Dad had one; brother has it now. As
noted, the disadvantage of the smaller ones is the shorter bed lengths;
"bigger is better" is certainly true w/ jointers, especially.
The only thing I disliked w/ the Delta 4" is that doing the cabinets for
folks used some hard maple for the facings and the lightness of the
cutterhead made it chatter more than one would like if tried to face a
2"+ piece; just not enough mass. It did fine on jointing glue edges
even on the maple.
--
Yes...that was a nice little jointer 50 years ago.
Over at owwm.org, I see many restorations of those
jointers.
That is 37-290 Deluxe I believe.
> <http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/95>
>
> A nicely built little 4" jointer. Dad had one; brother has it now. As
> noted, the disadvantage of the smaller ones is the shorter bed lengths;
> "bigger is better" is certainly true w/ jointers, especially.
>
> The only thing I disliked w/ the Delta 4" is that doing the cabinets for
> folks used some hard maple for the facings and the lightness of the
> cutterhead made it chatter more than one would like if tried to face a
> 2"+ piece; just not enough mass. It did fine on jointing glue edges even
> on the maple.
>
> --
On 4/9/2012 2:55 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> That's not what the guy I knew that worked at Ryobi said. I was also
> aware of the Homelite aquisition.
>
> After he told me about the nonsense going on at Ryobi ... he was
> eventually laid off. My first hint that it was true was ...
>>
>>> TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite Consumer from
>>> Deere & Co TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite
>>> Consumer from Deere & Co Nov 16, 2001
>>
>> <http://www.alacrastore.com/mergers-acquisitions/Deere_Company-1004803>
>>
>> for detailed listing of Deere acquisitions/dispositions from early 80s
>> forward.
...
I can find absolutely no indication anywhere (including Deere annual
reports and the Ryobi corporate history site) of Deere ever having any
ownership interest in Ryobi.
That Ryobi may have built some green-branded stuff is quite possible;
but I simply do not believe the ownership story is so.
--
On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
> Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.
>
> And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and ply.
Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.
Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
printing press.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 11:32 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:09:46 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 4:50 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
>>> bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
>>> battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
>>> windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)
>>
>>
>> Scratching head.... was that sticker??? Probably not, I paid exactly
>> $28k drive out but the truck stickered for $34K+
>
> No sticker o mine. I ordered it from the factory.
Well there was a sticker, that is law but they do not have to attach it
unless it goes on the lot for to be sold. The vehicles I have ordered
all had stickers that were given to me when I gave them a check.
Then, for the
> second time in my life, the dealer bent me over. The two times in my
> life when I ordered new vehicles from the factory have been
> nightmares. Ford's dealer submitted two orders under the same number,
> so when my 6 weeks was up, they said "Oops, your truck was never
> built." After ordering my Toyota, the dealer came back and said that
> the factory wasn't building any more '07s, so they found one close to
> what I ordered and I got that.
Buying an 07 in Dec of 07, yeah I imagine there we no more 07's being
built any more. I am suprised that the 08's were not already in
production. I bought my 07 in the middle of July and that was near the
end of the build year.
Gold paint (which I like better than
> the white I'd ordered) and the towing package were the only two
> changes. Oh, and they dropped the price by another grand, totaling $3k
> off the retail. It was one of only 3 standard cabs with the tan
> interior left available in the USA at the time, too.
I originally ordered silver but I really like the charcoal grey.
I got about the same deal on mine as the one I originally ordered with
the V6 because I was ready to close the deal and they would not have to
order another unit. Read that as a bird in the hand is worth two in the
bush.
>
>
>> But I got,,... ;~) 5.7 V* and honestly getting just under 17 mpg on
>> average in town driving. 6 auto speed trans, 4 door, SR5, running
>> boards, bed protector, towing package, AC and pwr doors windows, Stipe,
>> tinted front windows, Toyota alarm with glass break, mats, sliding back
>> glass, Alloy wheels, tool box under back seat, extra sound deadening.
>
> Running boards, y'old GOAT?
LOL. My wife insisted, it is a tall step for her and those that ride in
the back.
I think I have opened the sliding back glass once to see how it worked.
I guess I have the alarm, too, and mats,
> which were carefully recalled and found not to be a problem. Oh, one
> other change was a stacked CD player: 6 instead of 1.
I think they all came with some type of integrated alarm, they added the
glass break sensor, a little doo dad on the center dash next to the MP3
jack.
I really really like the tool box under the back seat, I keep jumper
cables, tie downs, etc under there.
I am not sure if my mats have a problem or not, I took them out and put
in the HD rubber mats that hold melted ice, snow. Not that this a
problem in Houston but we do get rain and the mats keep the water off of
the carpet.
>
>> And a beautiful grey interior and charcoal grey exterior. ;~)
>
> <Buick>
>
> --
> Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
> -- Margaret Lee Runbeck
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:09:46 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 4:50 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
>> bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
>> battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
>> windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)
>
>
>Scratching head.... was that sticker??? Probably not, I paid exactly
>$28k drive out but the truck stickered for $34K+
No sticker o mine. I ordered it from the factory. Then, for the
second time in my life, the dealer bent me over. The two times in my
life when I ordered new vehicles from the factory have been
nightmares. Ford's dealer submitted two orders under the same number,
so when my 6 weeks was up, they said "Oops, your truck was never
built." After ordering my Toyota, the dealer came back and said that
the factory wasn't building any more '07s, so they found one close to
what I ordered and I got that. Gold paint (which I like better than
the white I'd ordered) and the towing package were the only two
changes. Oh, and they dropped the price by another grand, totaling $3k
off the retail. It was one of only 3 standard cabs with the tan
interior left available in the USA at the time, too.
>But I got,,... ;~) 5.7 V* and honestly getting just under 17 mpg on
>average in town driving. 6 auto speed trans, 4 door, SR5, running
>boards, bed protector, towing package, AC and pwr doors windows, Stipe,
>tinted front windows, Toyota alarm with glass break, mats, sliding back
>glass, Alloy wheels, tool box under back seat, extra sound deadening.
Running boards, y'old GOAT? I guess I have the alarm, too, and mats,
which were carefully recalled and found not to be a problem. Oh, one
other change was a stacked CD player: 6 instead of 1.
>And a beautiful grey interior and charcoal grey exterior. ;~)
<Buick>
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:45:45 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
>lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
>but IMHO not the best way.
I think when it's a lesser amount of sheets, it's a smaller footprint
taken up thing.
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>
> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
> since to the ridiculous extreme of
> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
> mentality.
The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.
I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:02:48 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Actually, there is more than a grain of truth in both. A crappy
>mousetrap indeed led to a better mousetrap.
>And think were we would be, without the Model T. :)
I think the appearance of the internal combustion was a foregone
conclusion.Considering all the uses for oil these days and how it
permeates our very lives, The Model T or something very close to it
would have appeared sooner than later.
On 4/11/2012 9:31 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:51:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
>> with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
>> it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
>
> Consider some of the people in the US who have bilked and defrauded
> millions and millions of dollars from many thousands of people. Yet, I
> never hear opinions like yours leveled against them. Compared to some
> of these big guys, Gass is relatively a small timer, yet he is the one
> that gets your goat. Why is that?
Because Larry "thinks" no one is telling him what to do and wants to
keep it that way. He must have a great set of blinders to filter out
what he does not want to see.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:51:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
>with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
>it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
Consider some of the people in the US who have bilked and defrauded
millions and millions of dollars from many thousands of people. Yet, I
never hear opinions like yours leveled against them. Compared to some
of these big guys, Gass is relatively a small timer, yet he is the one
that gets your goat. Why is that?
On 4/10/2012 9:49 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
>> Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.
>>
>> And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and ply.
>
> Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere that
> in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you melted the
> silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a gallon of gas
> with them. Wood is probably no different.
>
> Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
> money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
> printing press.
>
Well, taking money out of circulation works too. One might even argue
that the reduction in the value of home prices reduced purchasing power,
which may have increased the relative value of a dollar. No?
Perhaps that partly explains why the rate of inflation now is not higher
now than I anticipated it would be.
Bill
On 4/10/2012 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:49:31 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
>> that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
>> melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
>> gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.
>
> Sorry, can't agree with that viewpoint. The big difference these days
> is the fact that the availability of quality wood has diminished
> greatly.
Depends on what you mean by quality wood. Certainly wood from rain
forests is scarce, or illegal to buy, so the price is high. I just went
to my shop and found some papers on stuff I made in 1978. I had paid 42
cents a foot for #2 2x6 pine. Looking up at HD today, the same wood is
63 cents a foot. Going to http://www.westegg.com inflation calculator,
that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the
same or better than what I got in 1978. This may not be true of all
species of wood, but is for the most commonly used stuff. In fact, I
remember big stores like Busy Beaver sold #4 junk graded as #2, so I
would generally buy from a higher priced yard where #2 was #2. HD, at
least mine, the #2 is mostly pretty decent stuff, no complaints from me.
Sure, top quality wood is still available if you've got the
> bucks, but even the high price hasn't kept up with the loss of quality
> wood products. This is evidenced by the vanishing of lumberyards and
> the companies who specialize in reclaimed wood.
Lumberyards have just about disappeared from my area. I need to buy
some hard wood and don't even know where to go. HD sells super high
quality, select #1 oak at like a $million a foot. Rockler sells all
sorts of crap at unbelievable prices. There is one lumber yard left in
my area and I hated that place 40 years ago because of high prices and
lack of selection, so won't go there.
> Hell, it's pretty obvious when we see plastic composites replacing
> deck boards. Sure, much the demand for this counterfeit cedar is
> driven by people wanting material that doesn't decay.
Every time I stain my deck, (every other year) I wish I would have used
plastic instead of real wood.
But, a great
> deal of that demand is also driven by the high cost accompanied by the
> lessening availability of the real product.
I don't think wolmanized decking is any more expensive now than it was
25 years ago, adjusted for inflation. I don't have prices for when I
built my deck, so can only guess, unlike what I did above.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
47
On 4/10/2012 10:29 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Sorry, I don't agree.
You don't agree that you can buy a cheap Ryobi, a middle priced Grizz,
or a high priced Festool?
> There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
Sure, it is a business decision. Few people want to spend $500 on a
shop vac, lots spend 80 bucks on a shop vac. All are available to
everyone, at least in the USA where "MBAthink" reigns.
> Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
> they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
> away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
> place, is now no longer to be found. Good???
You could always buy quality and cheap products, at least in my lifetime.
> maybe for some bottom
> lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.
I don't think you could have found a 15" planer with a spiral, segmented
cutter head at anywhere near the price of a Grizz, even if not adjusted
for government inflation, 40 years ago. You are very wrong about the
choices.
> We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
> partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
> America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
> third of the pie.
Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.
When "corporate America is forced by government hacks to only sell $3500
Table saws, then free thinking and ingenuity will be killed, but not by
corporate America, but Big Government America, AKA, your socialist Big
Brother.
--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ======> Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com
> On 4/10/2012 10:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>>
>>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>>> mentality.
>>
>> The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
>> Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
>> the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
>> a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
>> sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
>> can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
>> it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.
>>
>> I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
>> up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.
>>
--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ======> Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com
On 4/10/2012 11:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>>
>>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>>> mentality.
>>
>> The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
>> Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
>> the MBA's you speak of.Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
>> a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
>> sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
>> can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
>> it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.
>>
>> I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
>> up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.
>
> Bullshit! :)
You telling me I can't buy these tools?
>
> Jack, my friend, you miss the point, and concept expressed in the term,
> entirely.
No, didn't miss anything. In fact, I totally understand what you are
trying to say, and have the same beefs myself when not thinking clearly.
> Instead of continuing the innovation and engineering that built
> _quality_ into a previously respected brand/product, the name of the
> game, as played by the current "Ryobi" and MBAthink ilk, is:
>
> ~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
> and quality engineering.
>
> ~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
> _price point engineering_ .
>
> ~ Manufacturing same as cheaply as possible by use of cheap materials,
> low cost, unskilled labor
>
> ~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising, to dupes, suckers, and
> the ignorant unsuspecting, by relying solely upon the previous
> reputation of the brand, and for whatever the market will bear.
>
> All above, basic tenets of "MBAthink" as expressed. (IOW, you do not
> have to have any knowledge whatsoever of a product in order to
> successfully market it by simply buying the name and making it cheap ...
> AKA "fuck the quality, it's our bottom line, stupid" ... and we see what
> kind of crap that has served up)
Sorry, but all markets are filled. Larry can buy his cheap stuff, I can
buy my mediocre stuff, and you and Leon can buy your overpriced, I mean,
top quality stuff. The largest market is the cheap stuff, so that is
what abounds, the smallest market is the high priced stuff, so it
doesn't abound. It's as simple as that.
> To equate that methodology to products like Festool is ridiculous to an
> extreme. That is an inarguable fact, and to say otherwise is totally
> ignoring the reality of much of the current global market place.
That's psycho babble to me. Festool builds the most expensive shop vac
on earth, their MBAthinkers decided to go for the market that wants top
quality and wants everyone to know they paid unbelievable amounts to get
it, so they paint them ungodly green. Lincoln tried to do the same with
their pickup truck. Doesn't always work, perhaps if they painted them
all ungodly green?
> And, in case you were somehow not paying attention, here is just one
> small example of what the face of that concept looks like:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5723587662054187346
I didn't miss it, but you may have missed a ton of posts of happy users
of HF nail guns that cost 1/10th and do all that the user needs. If you
are a finish carpenter spending 10 hours a day pinning hardwood molding
in houses, you don't want a $20 HF air nailer. If you are a hobbyist
cabinet maker that uses a pin nailer for tacking an occasional jig
together, even a $20 pin nailer is overkill. Both are for sale.
It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly. Bitching because they make cheap stuff
available is silly, they make top quality stuff as well. They get in
trouble I guess when the 3rd world, non-union countries make mid quality
tools at cheap prices, but the MBA guys will figure out how to get out
of the market, or join the market. The MBA's that fail end up selling
used cars, bartenders or insurance.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:30:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 9:31 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:51:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
>>> with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
>>> it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.
>>
>> Consider some of the people in the US who have bilked and defrauded
>> millions and millions of dollars from many thousands of people. Yet, I
>> never hear opinions like yours leveled against them. Compared to some
>> of these big guys, Gass is relatively a small timer, yet he is the one
>> that gets your goat. Why is that?
>
>Because Larry "thinks" no one is telling him what to do and wants to
>keep it that way. He must have a great set of blinders to filter out
>what he does not want to see.
You still don't get it. I dislike what the SawStop owner is doing, not
the device itself. I'm not the slightest bit blind to the safety it
offers. I just don't want to have anything to do with some greedy
slimeball who couldn't sell his device (and should have nearly given
it away), that's all. Had he sold it to the mfgrs for a few grand a
mfgr license and a buck royalty per unit, he and his greedy partners
would all have had many millions to split within a couple years.
Retroactive sales would have skyrocketed that into quadruple millions
apiece.
Now stop lying about how I feel. It's not funny any more.
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
On 11 Apr 2012 18:41:43 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
>[email protected]:
>
>
>Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
>patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
>right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question that
>litigation should clarify. License fees are supposed to be reasonable. I
>was flabbergasted that the Ryobi lawsuit was so successful up through the
>appellate stage. That shouldn't have happened, IMNSHO.
Han, it wasn't one patent. These <expletive deleted> guys patented
anything even remotely associated with the process. Depending on who's
quoting it, they took out somewhere between FIFTY and SEVENTY FIVE
patents on this -one- product.
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Han, it wasn't one patent. These <expletive deleted> guys patented
> anything even remotely associated with the process. Depending on who's
> quoting it, they took out somewhere between FIFTY and SEVENTY FIVE
> patents on this -one- product.
I know, Larry, that there was a bunch of patents. Didn't know it was that
many, but that is the guy's bread and butter (plus caviar).
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> You still don't get it. I dislike what the SawStop owner is doing, not
> the device itself. I'm not the slightest bit blind to the safety it
> offers. I just don't want to have anything to do with some greedy
> slimeball who couldn't sell his device (and should have nearly given
> it away), that's all.
That's where the bullshit part of your argument raises it's ugly head Larry.
You seem to feel he should have given it away. How much of your labor and
your intelect do you give away? Is your work and are your efforts worth
compensation? Yet you have the balls to suggest that he should have nearly
given it away? West Coast thinking!
> Had he sold it to the mfgrs for a few grand a
> mfgr license and a buck royalty per unit, he and his greedy partners
> would all have had many millions to split within a couple years.
> Retroactive sales would have skyrocketed that into quadruple millions
> apiece.
I agree that he could have agreed to different terms than he was originally
seeking, but you suggesting what those terms should be is a bit arrogant.
>
> Now stop lying about how I feel. It's not funny any more.
You make it very clear how you feel - nobody has to lie about it for you.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:18:13 -0700, Larry Jaques
>Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
>small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.
That's a completely disingenuous statement. Putting aside the safety
feature, every review of the SawStop that I've seen states that it's a
quality made table saw with excellent fit and finish.
There are a several comparable table saws (size, capability AND cost)
that can be compared to the SawStop. The General 650 and the
Powermatic PM2000 are two popular, well respected models that come to
mind.
If you're going to attack the SawStop, that you might as well be
attacking other models too. In other words, your statement above is
nothing more than a wasted, misleading opinion.
On 4/10/2012 12:24 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>
> On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 10:29 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Sorry, I don't agree.
>>
>> You don't agree that you can buy a cheap Ryobi, a middle priced Grizz,
>> or a high priced Festool?
>>
>>> There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
>>
>> Sure, it is a business decision. Few people want to spend $500 on a shop
>> vac, lots spend 80 bucks on a shop vac. All are available to everyone,
>> at least in the USA where "MBAthink" reigns.
>>
>>> Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
>>> they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
>>> away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
>>> place, is now no longer to be found. Good???
>>
>> You could always buy quality and cheap products, at least in my lifetime.
>>
>>> maybe for some bottom
>>> lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.
>>
>> I don't think you could have found a 15" planer with a spiral, segmented
>> cutter head at anywhere near the price of a Grizz, even if not adjusted
>> for government inflation, 40 years ago. You are very wrong about the
>> choices.
>>
>>> We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
>>> partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
>>> America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
>>> third of the pie.
>>
>> Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
>> why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
>> for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.
> You are so wrong about that.
Nope, I'm right about that.
Corp America stifles free thinking and
> ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
> bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
> this.
Yet, changes are made, over, and over and over.
If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
> way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are used
> to.
And then they go out of business, or sell out to someone willing to do
it in a way the consumer wants it done.
It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out. The
> culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its about
> ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.
Would you like to compare the fence on my 1954 Unisaur compared to the
fence on the current unisaur? Would you like to compare the door
latches on a 1955 Ford to those on a 2012 Ford? Don't bother as you
will find Corporate America does just fine. They do it right, or go out
of business, or, get huge government handouts from corrupt socialist
governments (Solandra) and still go out of business.
>> When "corporate America is forced by government hacks to only sell $3500
>> Table saws, then free thinking and ingenuity will be killed, but not by
>> corporate America, but Big Government America, AKA, your socialist Big
>> Brother.
>>
--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ======> Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bullshit again. That is just pure bullshit. It is so easy to blame
> MBA's while we conveniently ignore the consumer desire for throw
> away, cheap products...
You are hereby awarded a dadiOH "BINGO".
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 4/10/2012 11:15 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 9:49 AM, Jack wrote:
>> Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
>> money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
>> printing press.
> Well, taking money out of circulation works too.
Well yeah, but that ain't happening.
One might even argue
> that the reduction in the value of home prices reduced purchasing power,
> which may have increased the relative value of a dollar. No?
No. Purchasing power is determined by productivity. Printing or
destroying paper money has nothing to do with anything, other than can
you purchase out of your wallet, out of a wheelbarrow, or with huge
numbers on your bills.
> Perhaps that partly explains why the rate of inflation now is not higher
> now than I anticipated it would be.
No, the inflation rate is not higher because the lying asses in
government are... are you sitting.. lying their ass off. It is
impossible for government to print money willy nilly w/o inflation
resulting. Obama owes $11 Trillion or so, and all he needs to do is
print a bunch of Trillion dollar bills and it would be not that much. A
loaf of bread would take a boat load of those bills, but, hey, it works.
Ask Weimar, he'll explain it, or wait around a bit, you will find out
first hand.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/10/2012 12:33 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Jack, have you bought from local mills, or guys that do their own wood.
>
> I buy from guys that are not your traditional lumber yards.
> More like mills.
>
> Some advertise on the side of the road... hardwood for sale.
> at first when I moved here I thought these guys were selling firewood.
> Then it dawned on me it doesn't say firewood.
That's what I'm looking for, but not the specialty guys that charge an
arm and a leg.
> Stop going to the HD for hardwood. Awful stuff.
Never bought hardwood from HD, but I looked at it.
And no it's not high quality.
Yes, at my HD it is high quality, no knots, no twist, select #1 at
select #1 prices, plus.
High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
> already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
> twisted like pretzels.
They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.
> So I have never bought from a lumber or HD quality wood. I have seen it
> in old pieces of furniture that I have refinished.. tight growth rings.
> Beautiful looks. What I buy from HD is ply or 2x4. But even that I am
> reluctant too lately. All the ply I got from HD twisted like a pretzel.
> How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in it... Pretty stable.
> I can't get it flat again.
The last sheet of ply I bought from HD was super good. I was looking
for some junk 3/4" ply for the bottom of my lumber rack. They had junk
at $18 a sheet, but they also had a big stack of good stuff on sale for
$23. One look and I knew $5 more was well worth it. I felt guilty
using that quality of wood for the bottom of my lumber rack, but forced
myself to do it:-) They didn't have of that again, that I saw.
> I have gotten some decent wood from these small mills. So I'll
> respectfully disagree.
Yes, I'm looking for one now. I was on vacation in Lake George, NY and
the place we stayed at had a small specialty lumber yard right next
door. They had good stuff at decent prices, and I was going to load up
my truck but got pressed for time and passed. It was the most exciting
part of the vacation:-) Don't know where on earth they got the wood, as
the whole damn place is a national park or something and not allowed to
cut trees, dead or alive? I think if a chainsaw was heard, a tree
hugging swat team would swoop down and shoot the sorry sucker.
--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ======> Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com
On 4/10/2012 11:24 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
...
>> Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
>> why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
>> for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.
>
> You are so wrong about that. Corp America stifles free thinking and
> ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
> bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
> this. If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
> way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are used
> to. It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out. The
> culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its about
> ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.
...
Absolute nonsense and bullhockey.
The best performance review I ever got included the phrase "He
identified (and solved) a problem we didn't know we had"
--
On 4/10/2012 12:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> It isn't high? Things have doubled in price in the last few years. The
> Gov. reports low inflation. Yet doubling is not low. Sorry I don't agree
> with the inflation numbers. There's something wrong with them.
Yes, some things have increased alot. I don't have a convenient
"marketbasket" to compare. It would be interesting to assemble one.
On 4/10/2012 12:43 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:10:15 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
>> it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the
>> same or better than what I got in 1978.
>
> That's garbage Jack and you know it. The cheap wood in 1978 was
> essentially straight grained and mostly knot free.
You are a lying sack of shit.
How's that?
I don't lie, ever, period. The lumber at my HD is as good or better
than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's. The prices I
looked up, I didn't guess. I guess you need to take my word on the
quality, but trust me, I have no reason to lie, and wouldn't if I did.
The cheap crap
> you're comparing to these days is full of knots and you can't find
> straight grain if your life depended on it. *That's* what I mean when
> I mention quality.
I mentioned #2 grade, which has small knots. I always had to look
through the wood stacks when I bought lumber, just as I do now. Then,
as now, they always manage to get some really good stuff, and some
really bad stuff mixed in the stacks of lumber, regardless of the
grading. HD does not sell #1 select, and I never, or almost never
bought that anyway, it is rare to find, and commercial furniture
builders scoop most of it up, so it was always expensive, and only
carried at large or specialty lumber yards.
> And, your example of Home Depot also falls short. Board width has
> diminished at HD.
That's garbage Dave, as long as I've been buying wood, the width of
lumber has been the same. A 2x6 is 5.5 inches, same as it was then. A
1x8 is 7 1/4, same as it was then. You don't know what your talking
about, or your HD is ripping you off.
Doesn't matter how much you're willing to pay for
> it. If you wanted to make a table out of hardwood with HD wood, you'd
> be joining a larger number of pieces of hard wood. I can remember 8"
> hard wood availability at HD. You can't find it now because it costs
> too damned much and isn't a customer demanded product because of that
> high cost.
Yes, super expensive at HD, but they only sell top quality Oak at my HD.
I know they have 1x6, not sure about 1x8. You shouldn't use bigger than
1x6 for table top glue ups anyway, unless it's quarter sawn, which
nobody can afford, unless you are a Texan:-)
> I used to buy hard wood oak veneered plywood at Home Depot. I stopped
> doing that four or five years ago because I realized the veneered
> plywood they were stocking had a thinner veneered oak layer on it. So
> thin in fact, that you have to be extra careful you don't sand through
> it. It effect, it's cheap and not worth the money being asked for it.
> Slice it up anyway you want, HD exists on the cheap end of the
> spectrum and has always done so. Just, that they do it even more now.
Well yeah, HD is not selling Festool stuff. But at *my* HD they sell
high quality OAK, and they sell very good #2 white wood (pine). I never
bought oak veneer ply from them, but my guess is it is the same or
better than I would get at Allegheny Plywood, a plywood place I used to
by oak veneered ply when I was doing that stuff. They had some crappy
stuff there then, probably same as now, but haven't bought any recently.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>
>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>
> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
> posterity.
No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
fault of "MBAthink"
You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 7:44 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:46:49 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> Snip
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
>>>> but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
>>>> issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
>>>> thousands.
>>>
>>> Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
>>> small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.
>>
>> You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
>> in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.
>
> Had you read any of the info on the case, you would have seen it
> listed numerous times. RE: Delta, one look at the bloody price they
> ask and you'll be able to guess why the sales numbers are slim.
> I don't recall which document I read that gave those numbers, but it
> was one of the legal papers. Looking online, I see that recalls give
> you some interesting numbers.
And yet SawStop sells well and is priced similar to the new Unisaw...
> Ryobo 21.5k, Ridgid 3k, DeWalt 13k, and those are only recalls of
> individual models, not the total sales. The numbers are BIG.
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11066.html
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09311.html
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08259.html
>
> Here ya go: Skil 120,000 http://tinyurl.com/89elgk2
Yeah that shows a lot of problems with saws sold recently.
But does not show comparative sales.
>>
>> No, that is just common sense. Had the manufacturers thought it would
>> have sold they would have been making them today. They chose not to let
>> us have the opportunity.
>
> PROVE IT! Don't just guess it. (See how it feels, turkey?) ;)
You cannot prove something that requires common sense to some one with
out it. ;)
>
>>> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
>>> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
>>> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>>
>> How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell me
>> if you think a seat belt is small in price...
>>
>> AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I have
>> the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required and was
>> only $50 more expensive.
>
> Not true. But I'd sure hate to pay it to Gass, now that I've seen a
> tiny bit of his playbook.
And yet you drive a car with required insurance.
>
>
>>>>>> I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>>>>>> regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>>>>>> saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>>>>>> to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
>>>>> That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
>>
>> You totally missed the point. I cannot explain it any simpler.
>
> No, you missed it, Leon. A guard adds little to the overall price. A
> SS could -triple- the cost of an inexpensive saw. A few bucks can be
> saved up for, but triple the cost takes the things right out of the
> realm of -possibility- for poor people. People who need things saved
> for them, both then and now.
No you missed the point. ;~) A few bucks 50~60 years ago equates to
hundreds today.
On 4/16/2012 8:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 7:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
>>>> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
>>>> more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional
>>>> work "because of the work you perform(ed)".
>>>>
>>>> I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.
>>>> :)
>>>
>>> Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars
>>> with a 25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before
>>> I upgraded to my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose
>>> car I redid was shot with one of those. My tools today do save me
>>> cost of materials, but they don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as
>>> good (or not as good...), with either technology in my hand. Like you and
>>> Leon, my work is distinguished by my practices, not by
>>> my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of you would get the
>>> repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black and Decker
>>> tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools that
>>> got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more
>>> accurately, but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work
>>> you turn out that is recognized.
>>
>> Well let me ask you this Mike. ;~)
>>
>> With a dedicate mortiser or tool of your choice do you think you could
>> cut 150+ 1/2" wide mortises a precise depth, in a precise location to
>> mate with each other, precisely in.... 20 minutes?
>
> Perhaps with a router jig - not sure. I'd almost think so, once it was set
> up. But - don't get me wrong... I'm not suggesting the tools don't perform
> or perform well. I'm not even suggesting they don't speed up the work. I
> was just trying to say that I suspect it was you two guys that got you the
> added work - not the tools.
I'll just say thank you Mike and I am sure Swingman would feel the same.
I appreciate your thoughts.
If you had to work harder (which the customer
> would not even see), to accomplish the same task with a different tool, you
> would still have gotten the add on work.
Sure we would, BUT would we have considered it worth the effort and
time? Would we have even offered that specific drawer feature. Most
likely not.
What got you that was quality
> delivery (two items). That those two came easier to you is a bonus for you,
> but you'd have nearly hit those same milestones with a rock and a sharp
> stick if you had to.
>
Leon wrote:
>
> Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
> aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
> favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
> done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
> referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
> yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
> either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
> months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
> doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
> work
> tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
> because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
> was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
> life easier for us.
>
>
That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you and
Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really based
their decisions on the tools you used.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
> people too, and he was cheap!
That's just a bit off Leon. Come on - every contractor or good workman that
does not use Festool is not Joe the fixer upper. That was just wrong dude.
>
> But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
> by the customer and the user.
Quieter I can almost believe - but even that I'm not sure about. Better?
Come on Leon - how would they even know?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
>
> I will say I don't see any smoke and mirrors in Festool videos.
>
> Now let me throw this one at you. I now own a Festool T15-3 drill. My
> wife bought it for me for Christmas. I thought it was an
> indulgence. It's a cool drill that spins in two directions with very cool
> right
> angle and eccentric attachments. But was it going to be that much
> better?????
> Ok I now use it instead of my corded DeWalt for drilling pocket holes.
> I have not used my impact driver since getting this drill.
> The clutch is electronic so the drill shuts off and gives you a two
> toned beep to indicate that you have reached your predetermined torque
> setting. Gone is the loud clatter of the clutch. Ok, it is
> quieter. ;~) I this week used it to build shelving out of 2x4
> material for my new shed. I use 3" torx/star head deck screws. This 15
> volt drill drove
> 200 plus screws full depth on the fast gear speed setting with out
> sinking the heads past even with the surface of the wood with out
> using the clutch. You let go of the trigger it stops, instantly. The
> only other drill that I have seen come close to that is my old Panasonic.
> DeWalt and Makita don't come close to stopping that quick. The drill
> obviously senses a load and increases voltage so you don't notice a
> speed change when driving a screw, fast or slow. Stop the screw 3/4
> in and start again and it instantly turns at the speed indicated by
> the trigger pull. I absolutely did not have to goose the trigger
> setting to get things going again.
>
Now... that's a drill motor. I've contented myslef with my Rigid 18v
because the kit was a Christmas present, and with the big batteries, it's
quite a workhorse. Not at all as intelligent as yours, and I like the sound
of what I hear from you about it. I think you should send it up here. I'll
give it a sexy paint job and of course, I'll try it out to make sure it
still works - and then... <ahem....> send it back to you...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
> Swingman! You wanna toush it?
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:40:34 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Who cares about the nickel test. Just some stupid things the magazines
>> care about.
>If your saw cannot pass the nickel test it can vibrate the blade. If
>the blade vibrates it's cut will not be as smooth as it would be with
>less vibration.
I've been around woodworking long enough to know that the nickel test
isn't the be all and end all of a tablesaw. My mentioning it was just
part of a if I could have everything wish list.
The contractor's saw I purchased some forty years ago, vibrates all
over the place until it gets up to speed, then it's ok. That's
something I would look to be gone with the power up of any cabinet
saw. Naturally, the weight of a cabinet saw goes a long way to
eliminating that vibration.
On 4/16/2012 4:29 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
>> people too, and he was cheap!
>
> That's just a bit off Leon. Come on - every contractor or good workman that
> does not use Festool is not Joe the fixer upper. That was just wrong dude.
>
You are absolutely correct! What I meant to convey is that my idea of
"Joe the Fixer upper" is one that dabbles in the sport...
>> But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
>> by the customer and the user.
>
> Quieter I can almost believe - but even that I'm not sure about. Better?
> Come on Leon - how would they even know?
Several of my customers realize that only a Festool Domino can make the
exposed tenons that I use to reinforce drawer joints. They like the
look. Not saying that there are other pretty joints but at the moment
the Domino is the only tool that will do it quickly and accurately.
That single use alone has paid for my Domino a few times over. And I
just bought my second box of replacement 5 mm Dominos. Just in that
size, I have gone through about 2,400. I very seldom make a joint
anymore with out floating tenons/Dominos and my customers get pictures
of how their pieces of furniture are going together. I send them
pictures of what they will never see after delivery.
Swingman wrote:
>
> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
> more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
> "because of the work you perform(ed)".
>
> I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong. :)
Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars with a
25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before I upgraded to
my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose car I redid was shot
with one of those. My tools today do save me cost of materials, but they
don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as good (or not as good...), with
either technology in my hand. Like you and Leon, my work is distinguished
by my practices, not by my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of
you would get the repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black
and Decker tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools
that got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more accurately,
but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work you turn out that
is recognized.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
>
> I am glad that what I was trying to describe was understandable. LOL
>
> I am not sure that trying one out in the store would be enough play
> time. You can try one out for 30 days no risk when you are ready. ;!)
I got it. Just send it up and I'll return it in 30 days...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/15/2012 9:32 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Have you put a link belt on it.
>
> I didn't need a link belt. My saw vibrated all over the place too.
> Then I burnt the belt while sawing some damn hard maple.
> Problem solved. The belt was so soft and supple after stinking up the
> place, that it no longer vibrated. The problem was the freakin belt.
>
>
> I have been using link belts on tools since. I have not replaced the
> tablesaw belt, but I am sure that I would not pass the nickel test
> (close but no cigar).
> My forrest WWII creates glass smoot cuts on endgrain. I don't think the
> little vibration is that detrimental.
And whether you are happy or not is all that matters.
On 4/19/2012 8:46 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/17/2012 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/16/2012 6:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>> Snip
Snip
>
> The sander you use raises my interest, particularly when you say you
> almost enjoy sanding with it... I recognize hyperbole when I see it, so
> so far have resisted. I still wish my son would have bought me one for
> xmas instead of the Ipad.
If you are referencing the Rotex, yeah that is a great sander. With the
aggressive mode and "Crystal" paper it can just about keep up with a
belt sander. or have the finesse of a finish sander in RO mode
>
>> On another note maybe they know something I don't. The drill comes with
>> a Torx/star drive bit and I used that bit on 3" deck screws last week.
>> If I did not already have 2~3 thousand square drive screw already I
>> would immediately switch to Torx exclusively.
>
> I like plain old Phillips. I've use Torx and square drive, they work OK,
> but so does a Phillips. I like Phillips because everyone in the US has a
> Phillips driver, housewives, school teachers, ballet dancers and wood
> workers.
Well this is where I might sound selfish but I don't care if some one
else cannot remove one of my screws. I hate caming out, iot drives me
up the wall. I would never make is as a dry wall installer. LOL
BUT!!! McFeeley's and many of the deck screws offer combo head screws
which you can use Philips head and square drive in. I do try to buy
those when I order.
>
>> IMHO Torx is about as much better than square drive as square drive is
>> better than Phillips.
>
> I agree with that but the difference to me is not enough to sacrifice
> common compatibility. The only heads I truly dislike are of course
> slotted ones of yesteryear. They should be illegal.
Yeah and they still make those kind of screws. ;~(
>
> The chair I'm sitting in now has hex drive screws holding it together.
> They come loose on occasion and if they were Phillips, I have a driver
> in my knife, and one in my pencil holder that would tighten them,
> instead, I have to go to my shop, find the right size hex wrench to do a
> simple task.
Oh noooooooooooo! LOL
>
> When I replaced the power window actuator in the wife's jeep, the door
> panel came off with 3 screws, 2 you could see were Phillips, the one
> recessed in a small hole you could not see was a Torx, #25. Had I not
> known that up front, I would have went nuts trying to get that screw
> out. (thank you internet) I think the MF's at Chrysler did that ONLY to
> F*** off guys like me that would rather spend 1/2 hour and $75 fixing it
> themselves instead of taking it to the dealer and spending $450 to have
> someone else do it. The actuator itself cost $260 at the dealers, $75 on
> the net. Exact same piece, I know, I replaced the sucker.
Strange that there is still a mix being used. I recall the Torx screws
being introduced on GM vehicles in 1975.. The Sealed Beam retainer used
Torx in place of Philips. The Philips were notorious for rusting so
badly that you could hardly get them out. The Torx was a welcome
improvement.
>
> I also think the 25 cent plastic gear that breaks over and over again on
> jeep power windows, and cannot be replaced, is done on purpose. a 50
> cent steel or aluminum one would last forever.
Absolutely! I worked with Gm products for 17 years. Their blower
motors, alternators, and AC compressors were a staple item in any
dealership. The old Axial compressors that GM used for many many years
were rebuildable in the shop. The radial 4 cylinder units were not.
There are internet web
> sites dedicated to that specific problem, so they know how f*** up the
> design is. I called them about as well. One guy even makes an aluminum
> replacement gear on his cnc machine you can buy for $35 but he says you
> pretty much need to replace it before it breaks.
On 4/16/2012 4:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
>> me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
>> issue. You are one bazaar dude.
>
> I have to agree. I don't do the amount of work that Swingman and Leon do
> for other people, but in all of the work that I have done for others (and
> that is not an inconsequential amount of work) on site, I have never heard a
> complaint about the level of noise or the amount of dust in the containment
> area - or even slightly outside of it. I'd say that some amount of that is
> expected. I imagine there may be very high end jobs where it may be a
> factor, but how many of us really ever find ourselves in that environment?
> If we do - how many times?
>
I know that you will be understand what I am going to say here. Wen I
use loud equipment I never got complaints either.
Now that I use quieter and better equipment I some how stay busier, get
more repeat customers, and referrals. I am more productive.
On 4/14/2012 6:53 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:40:43 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Actually I am far from a Surfer Dude. ;~)
>
> What? You mean you don't make regular trips down to gulf coast for a
> little surfing action?
LOL... No I am about 200 miles away from CC, and Galveston is too
crowded with most of Houston going for the beach.
On 4/16/2012 7:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> There is that and Swingman and I are damn good. ;~)
>
> Yeah! That was my point!
LOL,,, I once thought it was the skill and to a great degree it is the
knowledge of how to make things look right. But I have been doing this
seriously for 34 or so years. The first 17 or so as stress therapy for
my "real job". Right Nailshooter? ;~)
I can tell you that it is not all me, I am just one of the tools. I
have put some pretty serious money into some of my equipment and have
gotten my investment back faster than I ever dreamed. These tools do
what others can't and or what I don't know how or want to do any other way.
>
>> but I built an
>> additional 32 drawers to replace "new" drawers that the trim carpenter
>> had build but not yet installed. The customer saw 3 special sized
>> drawers for the kitchen with exposed tenons to reinforce the joints
>> that I had built. The other 32 drawers were for the bath rooms which
>> I was not participating in until she saw those three drawers. So yes
>> the tool in this case was responsible for the extra work.
>
> But - if you had done those first drawers with hand cut dovetails, don't you
> think the reaction would have been the same?
I don't do hand cut DT's. And Swingman actually did all of the other
kitchen drawers with DT's. So no, this apparently was and or is a new
and unique look that sto people more so that not. Swingmans DT's were
beautiful. IIRC those 3 special drawers would have been too much
trouble to DT on so they got Domino's. The customer absolutely had the
choice and the resources to pretty much have what she wanted.
>
>>
>> Initially on the kitchen we precut all cabinet doors and drawer fronts
>> in our shops. Because this was a remodel and we were dealing with
>> square new cabinets fitting into an older home and cabinet door gap
>> tolerances measured in 32nds" we had to custom recut several doors
>> and drawer fronts so that the gaps looked uniform. We made these
>> custom unsquare cuts with a Festool track saw, cutting MDF.
>>
>> Do you think any ole circular saw would have been up to the task with
>> no tear out on the edges top or bottom, in MDF?
>
> Hell no - everybody knows you use oxy/accetelyne to cut MDF!
>
> Geeze...
I will say I don't see any smoke and mirrors in Festool videos.
Now let me throw this one at you. I now own a Festool T15-3 drill. My
wife bought it for me for Christmas. I thought it was an indulgence.
It's a cool drill that spins in two directions with very cool right
angle and eccentric attachments. But was it going to be that much
better?????
Ok I now use it instead of my corded DeWalt for drilling pocket holes.
I have not used my impact driver since getting this drill.
The clutch is electronic so the drill shuts off and gives you a two
toned beep to indicate that you have reached your predetermined torque
setting. Gone is the loud clatter of the clutch. Ok, it is quieter. ;~)
I this week used it to build shelving out of 2x4 material for my new
shed. I use 3" torx/star head deck screws. This 15 volt drill drove
200 plus screws full depth on the fast gear speed setting with out
sinking the heads past even with the surface of the wood with out using
the clutch. You let go of the trigger it stops, instantly. The only
other drill that I have seen come close to that is my old Panasonic.
DeWalt and Makita don't come close to stopping that quick. The drill
obviously senses a load and increases voltage so you don't notice a
speed change when driving a screw, fast or slow. Stop the screw 3/4 in
and start again and it instantly turns at the speed indicated by the
trigger pull. I absolutely did not have to goose the trigger setting to
get things going again.
Swingman! You wanna toush it?
On 4/16/2012 7:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
>> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
>> more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
>> "because of the work you perform(ed)".
>>
>> I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong. :)
>
> Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars with a
> 25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before I upgraded to
> my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose car I redid was shot
> with one of those. My tools today do save me cost of materials, but they
> don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as good (or not as good...), with
> either technology in my hand. Like you and Leon, my work is distinguished
> by my practices, not by my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of
> you would get the repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black
> and Decker tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools
> that got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more accurately,
> but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work you turn out that
> is recognized.
>
Well let me ask you this Mike. ;~)
With a dedicate mortiser or tool of your choice do you think you could
cut 150+ 1/2" wide mortises a precise depth, in a precise location to
mate with each other, precisely in.... 20 minutes?
On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
>> aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
>> favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
>> done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
>> referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
>> yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
>> either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
>> months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
>> doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
>> work
>> tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
>> because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
>> was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
>> life easier for us.
>>
>>
>
> That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you and
> Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
> you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really based
> their decisions on the tools you used.
Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job, more
quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
"because of the work you perform(ed)".
I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong. :)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/17/2012 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 6:48 PM, Leon wrote:
Snip
> So, while I think Festools are quality, I also think they are over
> priced. You don't, so ergo an opening for a lively debate. I enjoy the
> debate or I would be not be in it.
>
Good on you Jack! BTY did you see the link to the Rolls Pick up? LOL
Now that is "probably" the most expensive pick up truck in the world. ;~)
Rest assured that if you ever do decide to try out a Festool you have 30
days to take it back if it did not live up to your expectations both in
performance and value.
Oddly I almost took my Festool drill back... Festool uses a proprietary
centrotec/quick release chuck for driver bits and drill bits. You also
get a regular chuck so you can go about business as usual. But the odd
thing is that Festool does not make a square drive bit to fit that quick
release chuck. I have however seen a video of a fix for regular drive
bits to work with this special quick release chuck. But considering
that Festool most often has all the bases covered it is surprising that
they don't offer square drive bits.
On another note maybe they know something I don't. The drill comes with
a Torx/star drive bit and I used that bit on 3" deck screws last week.
If I did not already have 2~3 thousand square drive screw already I
would immediately switch to Torx exclusively.
IMHO Torx is about as much better than square drive as square drive is
better than Phillips.
Have a good day Jack!
Have you put a link belt on it.
I didn't need a link belt. My saw vibrated all over the place too.
Then I burnt the belt while sawing some damn hard maple.
Problem solved. The belt was so soft and supple after stinking up the
place, that it no longer vibrated. The problem was the freakin belt.
I have been using link belts on tools since. I have not replaced the
tablesaw belt, but I am sure that I would not pass the nickel test
(close but no cigar).
My forrest WWII creates glass smoot cuts on endgrain. I don't think the
little vibration is that detrimental.
Something freewheeling is different that something under load. Take my
hand grinder for instance, free wheeling lots of vibration with a wire
wheel. Under load very little. Less speed... Although the saw probably
less of an issue.
On 4/14/2012 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:40:34 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> Who cares about the nickel test. Just some stupid things the magazines
>>> care about.
>
>> If your saw cannot pass the nickel test it can vibrate the blade. If
>> the blade vibrates it's cut will not be as smooth as it would be with
>> less vibration.
>
> I've been around woodworking long enough to know that the nickel test
> isn't the be all and end all of a tablesaw. My mentioning it was just
> part of a if I could have everything wish list.
>
> The contractor's saw I purchased some forty years ago, vibrates all
> over the place until it gets up to speed, then it's ok. That's
> something I would look to be gone with the power up of any cabinet
> saw. Naturally, the weight of a cabinet saw goes a long way to
> eliminating that vibration.
Leon wrote:
>
> There is that and Swingman and I are damn good. ;~)
Yeah! That was my point!
> but I built an
> additional 32 drawers to replace "new" drawers that the trim carpenter
> had build but not yet installed. The customer saw 3 special sized
> drawers for the kitchen with exposed tenons to reinforce the joints
> that I had built. The other 32 drawers were for the bath rooms which
> I was not participating in until she saw those three drawers. So yes
> the tool in this case was responsible for the extra work.
But - if you had done those first drawers with hand cut dovetails, don't you
think the reaction would have been the same?
>
> Initially on the kitchen we precut all cabinet doors and drawer fronts
> in our shops. Because this was a remodel and we were dealing with
> square new cabinets fitting into an older home and cabinet door gap
> tolerances measured in 32nds" we had to custom recut several doors
> and drawer fronts so that the gaps looked uniform. We made these
> custom unsquare cuts with a Festool track saw, cutting MDF.
>
> Do you think any ole circular saw would have been up to the task with
> no tear out on the edges top or bottom, in MDF?
Hell no - everybody knows you use oxy/accetelyne to cut MDF!
Geeze...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 7:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
>>> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
>>> more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional
>>> work "because of the work you perform(ed)".
>>>
>>> I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.
>>> :)
>>
>> Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars
>> with a 25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before
>> I upgraded to my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose
>> car I redid was shot with one of those. My tools today do save me
>> cost of materials, but they don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as
>> good (or not as good...), with either technology in my hand. Like you and
>> Leon, my work is distinguished by my practices, not by
>> my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of you would get the
>> repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black and Decker
>> tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools that
>> got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more
>> accurately, but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work
>> you turn out that is recognized.
>
> Well let me ask you this Mike. ;~)
>
> With a dedicate mortiser or tool of your choice do you think you could
> cut 150+ 1/2" wide mortises a precise depth, in a precise location to
> mate with each other, precisely in.... 20 minutes?
Perhaps with a router jig - not sure. I'd almost think so, once it was set
up. But - don't get me wrong... I'm not suggesting the tools don't perform
or perform well. I'm not even suggesting they don't speed up the work. I
was just trying to say that I suspect it was you two guys that got you the
added work - not the tools. If you had to work harder (which the customer
would not even see), to accomplish the same task with a different tool, you
would still have gotten the add on work. What got you that was quality
delivery (two items). That those two came easier to you is a bonus for you,
but you'd have nearly hit those same milestones with a rock and a sharp
stick if you had to.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>>shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>>so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>>a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>>and quiet it might be...
>
>And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
>keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
>that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
>a contractor my be working in.
>
>Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
Who said anything about professional contractors? The discussion has been
on hobby and amateur woodworkers.
That said, of all my pro contractor friends, none of them use festool gear,
but rather use middle of the road quality gear (skilsaws, dewalt gear,
PC).
scott
Jack wrote:
>
> Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
> me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
> issue. You are one bazaar dude.
I have to agree. I don't do the amount of work that Swingman and Leon do
for other people, but in all of the work that I have done for others (and
that is not an inconsequential amount of work) on site, I have never heard a
complaint about the level of noise or the amount of dust in the containment
area - or even slightly outside of it. I'd say that some amount of that is
expected. I imagine there may be very high end jobs where it may be a
factor, but how many of us really ever find ourselves in that environment?
If we do - how many times?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 8:41 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am glad that what I was trying to describe was understandable. LOL I
>>> am not sure that trying one out in the store would be enough play
>>> time. You can try one out for 30 days no risk when you are ready.
>>> ;!)
>>
>> I got it. Just send it up and I'll return it in 30 days...
>>
>
> Nooooooo this thing is better that I expected. I am not parting with
> it. ;~)
Didn't yo mommy ever tell you about being selfish?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year
>> old shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a
>> $100 or so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't
>> spend $645 on a Festool that does pretty much the same thing,
>> regardless of how pretty and quiet it might be...
>
> And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
> keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
> that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
> a contractor my be working in.
>
> Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
To be fair Dave - plastic has served that purpose just fine for years -
and... it's silent.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/16/2012 12:18 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>>> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>>> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>>> and quiet it might be...
>>
>> And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
>> keeping customers.
>
> It would not be part and parcel of getting and keeping customers. You
> sure are a goofy sucker.
>
> LESS dust in a customer's house.
>
> My 35 year old shop vac sucks up dust and water just fine. When I use it
> with my $100 sander, I get zero dust, don't even need a dust mask. It is
> loud, but it is very old and very cheap. You could buy vacs at half the
> cost (still expensive for a damned vac) of a Festool and quieter. Ridged
> for exam
>
> Much LESS noise in
>> that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
>> a contractor my be working in.
>>
>> Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
>
> Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
> me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
> issue. You are one bazaar dude.
>
Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
people too, and he was cheap!
But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
by the customer and the user.
On 4/17/2012 12:03 AM, CW wrote:
>
>
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
>>> aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
>>> favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
>>> done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
>>> referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
>>> yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
>>> either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
>>> months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
>>> doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
>>> work
>>> tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
>>> because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
>>> was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
>>> life easier for us.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you
>> and
>> Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the
>> work
>> you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really
>> based
>> their decisions on the tools you used.
>
> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job, more
> quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
> "because of the work you perform(ed)".
> ============================================================================================
> I don't own any Festool
> equipment and probably never will. That is simply because I don't need
> it. I am not a professional woodworker so don't need that caliber of
> tool.
That's exactly what has been said, repeatedly, by those of us who do,
only to be continually, and snidely, disparaged by those who don't.
Check it out for yourself.
If there is any "argument", that asinine and unnecessary disparagement
of a tool and its user is the basis for it.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
>> aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
>> favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
>> done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
>> referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
>> yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
>> either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
>> months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
>> doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
>> work
>> tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
>> because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
>> was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
>> life easier for us.
>>
>>
>
> That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you and
> Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
> you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really based
> their decisions on the tools you used.
>
>
There is that and Swingman and I are damn good. ;~) but I built an
additional 32 drawers to replace "new" drawers that the trim carpenter
had build but not yet installed. The customer saw 3 special sized
drawers for the kitchen with exposed tenons to reinforce the joints that
I had built. The other 32 drawers were for the bath rooms which I was
not participating in until she saw those three drawers. So yes the tool
in this case was responsible for the extra work.
Initially on the kitchen we precut all cabinet doors and drawer fronts
in our shops. Because this was a remodel and we were dealing with
square new cabinets fitting into an older home and cabinet door gap
tolerances measured in 32nds" we had to custom recut several doors and
drawer fronts so that the gaps looked uniform. We made these custom
unsquare cuts with a Festool track saw, cutting MDF.
Do you think any ole circular saw would have been up to the task with no
tear out on the edges top or bottom, in MDF?
On 4/16/2012 7:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
>> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
>> more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
>> "because of the work you perform(ed)".
>>
>> I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong. :)
>
> Yeahbut we both know that was not my point.
I'm taking exactly what you express to be what your point is. :)
I painted a lot of cars with a
> 25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before I upgraded to
> my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose car I redid was shot
> with one of those. My tools today do save me cost of materials, but they
> don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as good (or not as good...), with
> either technology in my hand. Like you and Leon, my work is distinguished
> by my practices, not by my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of
> you would get the repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black
> and Decker tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools
> that got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more accurately,
> but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work you turn out that
> is recognized.
You indeed have a point, but my contention is that it is a far cry from
the entire story, and that the tool can be as equally important as the
talent.
I will accept that talent and aptitude obviously play a part, but you
must also accept that Michelangelo could not have carved a David with a
carving knife, nor could Rembrandt have painted The Night Watch with his
finger.
The tool and, in almost all cases of success in handwork of any kind,
the "best tool for the job", is most often what ultimately allows the
talent and aptitude to express itself ... you must have all three, plus
the opportunity. :)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>> and quiet it might be...
>
> And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
> keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
> that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
> a contractor my be working in.
>
> Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
Geeze, "Hand 'em out a coupla-pair a ear-plugs!" : )
On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> ...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>> shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>> so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>> a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>> and quiet it might be...
>
> And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
> keeping customers.
It would not be part and parcel of getting and keeping customers. You
sure are a goofy sucker.
LESS dust in a customer's house.
My 35 year old shop vac sucks up dust and water just fine. When I use it
with my $100 sander, I get zero dust, don't even need a dust mask. It
is loud, but it is very old and very cheap. You could buy vacs at half
the cost (still expensive for a damned vac) of a Festool and quieter.
Ridged for example.
Much LESS noise in
> that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
> a contractor my be working in.
>
> Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:41:16 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> I got it. Just send it up and I'll return it in 30 days..
>
> Left a few zeros off that didn't you Mike?
Thank you Dave. Leon - I will return it in 300 days...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 4/16/2012 2:38 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 12:18 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
>> Much LESS noise in
>>> that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
>>> a contractor my be working in.
>>>
>>> Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
>>
>> Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
>> me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
>> issue. You are one bazaar dude.
>>
>
> Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
> people too, and he was cheap!
Well yeah, he wasn't paying off a Festool mortgage:-)
> But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
> by the customer and the user.
Well if I ever become a professional vacuum cleaner guy, running a shop
vac 4 hours or more a day, I'll consider that Festool shop vac...
Meanwhile, after pounding nails all day, running hammer drills into
concrete walls all day, whacking 2x's with a circular saw all day, when
done, my screaming shop vac will let the customer know I'm done, and am
cleaning up after myself. The noise won't bother them a lick, they be
glad it's over. And my vac spews no dust that I can see.
Listen Leon, I'd love to own a fleet of Festools. I've had them in my
hands, ran a few, and they exude quality. I can't justify $645 for a
damned vacuum, and I guarantee you I'm not alone, including many
professionals making a living doing wood work.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 06:47:39 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Good demo. Now, I am betting the glue on both is stronger because glue
>is on more of the Domino surface, and I believe that is because the
>Domino surface has indentations. If you glue the Domino those
>indentations certainly get filled.
Even so, it still makes sense to apply glue to all edges. It maximizes
the chances all surfaces joining themselves to other surfaces.
On 4/17/2012 7:01 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 06:47:39 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Good demo. Now, I am betting the glue on both is stronger because glue
>> is on more of the Domino surface, and I believe that is because the
>> Domino surface has indentations. If you glue the Domino those
>> indentations certainly get filled.
>
> Even so, it still makes sense to apply glue to all edges. It maximizes
> the chances all surfaces joining themselves to other surfaces.
Yeah and my only reason to only go down in the hole is to eliminate
excess squeeze out.
On 4/17/2012 7:20 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 7:01 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 06:47:39 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> Good demo. Now, I am betting the glue on both is stronger because glue
>>> is on more of the Domino surface, and I believe that is because the
>>> Domino surface has indentations. If you glue the Domino those
>>> indentations certainly get filled.
>>
>> Even so, it still makes sense to apply glue to all edges. It maximizes
>> the chances all surfaces joining themselves to other surfaces.
>
> Yeah and my only reason to only go down in the hole is to eliminate excess
> squeeze out.
That's what she said!
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
--
Repeat after me:
"I am we Todd it. I am sofa king we Todd it."
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 4/16/2012 6:48 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
>> Well if I ever become a professional vacuum cleaner guy, running a shop
>> vac 4 hours or more a day, I'll consider that Festool shop vac...
>> Meanwhile, after pounding nails all day, running hammer drills into
>> concrete walls all day, whacking 2x's with a circular saw all day, when
>> done, my screaming shop vac will let the customer know I'm done, and am
>> cleaning up after myself. The noise won't bother them a lick, they be
>> glad it's over. And my vac spews no dust that I can see.
> Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
> aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
> favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be done?
Yes, if they are want something done, they want it done. When they can
use their new kitchen or bath or family room, or whatever, they are glad
its done, and the better the work, the gladder they are...
> Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is referral
> business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,, yet, and my
> only advertising is my business card. No business phone either.
I've seen pictures of your work, and it looks great. I've read most of
your posts on here, and, while this might piss you off some, you and I
agree on damn near everything (including the toyota pu, my next truck).
Many, many times I read a post and you say exactly, almost word for
word with what I was thinking or about to type. BTW, I don't disagree
for one second that you get what you pay for, and good tools are always
better than junk tools. I think most everyone knows that.
>> Listen Leon, I'd love to own a fleet of Festools. I've had them in my
>> hands, ran a few, and they exude quality. I can't justify $645 for a
>> damned vacuum, and I guarantee you I'm not alone, including manyk
>> professionals making a living doing wood work.
>
> Now Jack you are speaking in a way I can understand.
Yeah, and how much fun was that? Pissing in your pocket is not very
interesting. I don't think many should spend all the money on a damned
shop vac. I'm not so sure about the sander, you make them sound really
good, and I've sat on my hands once or twice to not pry some cash out of
my wallet for one.
So, while I think Festools are quality, I also think they are over
priced. You don't, so ergo an opening for a lively debate. I enjoy the
debate or I would be not be in it.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/16/2012 8:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
>> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
>> more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
>> "because of the work you perform(ed)".
>>
>> I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong. :)
>
> Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars with a
> 25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before I upgraded to
> my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose car I redid was shot
> with one of those. My tools today do save me cost of materials, but they
> don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as good (or not as good...), with
> either technology in my hand. Like you and Leon, my work is distinguished
> by my practices, not by my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of
> you would get the repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black
> and Decker tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools
> that got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more accurately,
> but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work you turn out that
> is recognized.
Exactly, but added to that, if you drive to Home Depot, it makes little
difference if you are driving a Mercedes or a Bentley, If the Mercedes
breaks after a million trips, you can throw it away and buy 10 or 20
more. Larry might get by with a Hugo, I need the Mercedes, Swing and
Leon gotta have the Bentley.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/17/2012 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 6:48 PM, Leon wrote:
> Snip
>
>> So, while I think Festools are quality, I also think they are over
>> priced. You don't, so ergo an opening for a lively debate. I enjoy the
>> debate or I would be not be in it.
> Rest assured that if you ever do decide to try out a Festool you have 30
> days to take it back if it did not live up to your expectations both in
> performance and value.
I doubt any Festool would not live up to my expectations, just like I
doubt the Rolls pu would not be good enough for me:-). The only
disparaging remarks I made about them is they are super expensive, and
they are, and the green color is god awful. Color is a joke, who cares
and it is completely personal and in the eye of the beholder.
> Oddly I almost took my Festool drill back...
I've looked at, and pulled the trigger on the drill, nice piece and you
can feel the quality. The start up was different, I noticed that
immediately. I would have to get used to the design, but would
personally have a hard time justifying the expense. I'm a tool guy
though, I love tools and would like to have, (not pay for), any Festool.
The vacuum that I pick on is the last Festool I'd like to own. It's a
damned vacuum, any half decent vac is good enough for me. NOTHING I do
requires a high priced shop vacuum.
The sander you use raises my interest, particularly when you say you
almost enjoy sanding with it... I recognize hyperbole when I see it, so
so far have resisted. I still wish my son would have bought me one for
xmas instead of the Ipad.
> On another note maybe they know something I don't. The drill comes with
> a Torx/star drive bit and I used that bit on 3" deck screws last week.
> If I did not already have 2~3 thousand square drive screw already I
> would immediately switch to Torx exclusively.
I like plain old Phillips. I've use Torx and square drive, they work
OK, but so does a Phillips. I like Phillips because everyone in the US
has a Phillips driver, housewives, school teachers, ballet dancers and
wood workers.
> IMHO Torx is about as much better than square drive as square drive is
> better than Phillips.
I agree with that but the difference to me is not enough to sacrifice
common compatibility. The only heads I truly dislike are of course
slotted ones of yesteryear. They should be illegal.
The chair I'm sitting in now has hex drive screws holding it together.
They come loose on occasion and if they were Phillips, I have a driver
in my knife, and one in my pencil holder that would tighten them,
instead, I have to go to my shop, find the right size hex wrench to do a
simple task.
When I replaced the power window actuator in the wife's jeep, the door
panel came off with 3 screws, 2 you could see were Phillips, the one
recessed in a small hole you could not see was a Torx, #25. Had I not
known that up front, I would have went nuts trying to get that screw
out. (thank you internet) I think the MF's at Chrysler did that ONLY to
F*** off guys like me that would rather spend 1/2 hour and $75 fixing it
themselves instead of taking it to the dealer and spending $450 to have
someone else do it. The actuator itself cost $260 at the dealers, $75 on
the net. Exact same piece, I know, I replaced the sucker.
I also think the 25 cent plastic gear that breaks over and over again on
jeep power windows, and cannot be replaced, is done on purpose. a 50
cent steel or aluminum one would last forever. There are internet web
sites dedicated to that specific problem, so they know how f*** up the
design is. I called them about as well. One guy even makes an aluminum
replacement gear on his cnc machine you can buy for $35 but he says you
pretty much need to replace it before it breaks.
> Have a good day Jack!
You too Leon, keep up the good work.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/16/2012 8:41 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> I am glad that what I was trying to describe was understandable. LOL
>>
>> I am not sure that trying one out in the store would be enough play
>> time. You can try one out for 30 days no risk when you are ready. ;!)
>
> I got it. Just send it up and I'll return it in 30 days...
>
Nooooooo this thing is better that I expected. I am not parting with
it. ;~)
On 4/16/2012 8:21 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> I will say I don't see any smoke and mirrors in Festool videos.
>>
>> Now let me throw this one at you. I now own a Festool T15-3 drill. My
>> wife bought it for me for Christmas. I thought it was an
>> indulgence. It's a cool drill that spins in two directions with very cool
>> right
>> angle and eccentric attachments. But was it going to be that much
>> better?????
>> Ok I now use it instead of my corded DeWalt for drilling pocket holes.
>> I have not used my impact driver since getting this drill.
>> The clutch is electronic so the drill shuts off and gives you a two
>> toned beep to indicate that you have reached your predetermined torque
>> setting. Gone is the loud clatter of the clutch. Ok, it is
>> quieter. ;~) I this week used it to build shelving out of 2x4
>> material for my new shed. I use 3" torx/star head deck screws. This 15
>> volt drill drove
>> 200 plus screws full depth on the fast gear speed setting with out
>> sinking the heads past even with the surface of the wood with out
>> using the clutch. You let go of the trigger it stops, instantly. The
>> only other drill that I have seen come close to that is my old Panasonic.
>> DeWalt and Makita don't come close to stopping that quick. The drill
>> obviously senses a load and increases voltage so you don't notice a
>> speed change when driving a screw, fast or slow. Stop the screw 3/4
>> in and start again and it instantly turns at the speed indicated by
>> the trigger pull. I absolutely did not have to goose the trigger
>> setting to get things going again.
>>
>
> Now... that's a drill motor. I've contented myslef with my Rigid 18v
> because the kit was a Christmas present, and with the big batteries, it's
> quite a workhorse. Not at all as intelligent as yours, and I like the sound
> of what I hear from you about it. I think you should send it up here. I'll
> give it a sexy paint job and of course, I'll try it out to make sure it
> still works - and then...<ahem....> send it back to you...
>
I am glad that what I was trying to describe was understandable. LOL
I am not sure that trying one out in the store would be enough play
time. You can try one out for 30 days no risk when you are ready. ;!)
"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
>> aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
>> favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
>> done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
>> referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
>> yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
>> either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
>> months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
>> doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC
>> the
>> work
>> tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
>> because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
>> was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
>> life easier for us.
>>
>>
>
> That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you
> and
> Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
> you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really
> based
> their decisions on the tools you used.
Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job, more
quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
"because of the work you perform(ed)".
============================================================================================
I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.
I think this argument is going nowhere. I don't own any Festool equipment
and probably never will. That is simply because I don't need it. I am not a
professional woodworker so don't need that caliber of tool. I have seen the
Festool line and have talked to people that use it. If I were doing this for
a living, I would not hesitate to by their equipment. Everything they sell
is quality. You can see that just by handling it. This translates into ease
of use and longevity. The dust collector, while being expensive, is compact
and efficient. Their tools are meant to work as a system meaning no rigging
to get things to function. This all translates to efficiency. Working in an
efficient manor is what makes you money, not being in a hurry. Being in a
hurry, you make mistakes. Working efficiently is the key to speed and time
is money. I am a machinist by trade. I have worked in a number of shops.
Some, they tried to go cheap on equipment. Yes, the work got done but with
better equipment it would have been done much faster. I have also worked in
places that saw the value in good tools. Yes, they cost more but the
efficiency paid for them in no time.
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
>shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
>so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
>a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
>and quiet it might be...
And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.
Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
On 4/17/2012 4:45 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:35:04 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I am not sure that trying one out in the store would be enough play
>> time. You can try one out for 30 days no risk when you are ready. ;!)
>
> Speaking of playing, I thought this might interest you.
> http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/domino-crib-sheet-how-do-you-glue/msg202546/?topicseen#new
Hummmmmm
Good demo. Now, I am betting the glue on both is stronger because glue
is on more of the Domino surface, and I believe that is because the
Domino surface has indentations. If you glue the Domino those
indentations certainly get filled.
I would have liked to have seen the demo with glue only on the
Domino...I bet the result would have been better than just the mortise
and not as good as the mortise and Domino.
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:35:04 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>I am not sure that trying one out in the store would be enough play
>time. You can try one out for 30 days no risk when you are ready. ;!)
Speaking of playing, I thought this might interest you.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/domino-crib-sheet-how-do-you-glue/msg202546/?topicseen#new
On 4/16/2012 6:24 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
>>> aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
>>> favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
>>> done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
>>> referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
>>> yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
>>> either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
>>> months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
>>> doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
>>> work
>>> tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
>>> because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
>>> was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
>>> life easier for us.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you
>> and
>> Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the
>> work
>> you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really
>> based
>> their decisions on the tools you used.
>
> Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
> spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job, more
> quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
> "because of the work you perform(ed)".
>
> I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong. :)
>
>
Is that a noisy paint brush?? LOL
On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/16/2012 2:38 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/16/2012 12:18 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> Much LESS noise in
>>>> that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
>>>> a contractor my be working in.
>>>>
>>>> Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?
>>>
>>> Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
>>> me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
>>> issue. You are one bazaar dude.
>>>
>>
>> Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
>> people too, and he was cheap!
>
> Well yeah, he wasn't paying off a Festool mortgage:-)
>
>> But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
>> by the customer and the user.
>
> Well if I ever become a professional vacuum cleaner guy, running a shop
> vac 4 hours or more a day, I'll consider that Festool shop vac...
> Meanwhile, after pounding nails all day, running hammer drills into
> concrete walls all day, whacking 2x's with a circular saw all day, when
> done, my screaming shop vac will let the customer know I'm done, and am
> cleaning up after myself. The noise won't bother them a lick, they be
> glad it's over. And my vac spews no dust that I can see.
Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be done?
Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is referral
business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,, yet, and my
only advertising is my business card. No business phone either.
Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18 months ago.
We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets, doors, and
drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the work
tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made life
easier for us.
>
> Listen Leon, I'd love to own a fleet of Festools. I've had them in my
> hands, ran a few, and they exude quality. I can't justify $645 for a
> damned vacuum, and I guarantee you I'm not alone, including many
> professionals making a living doing wood work.
Now Jack you are speaking in a way I can understand.
"tiredofspam" <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Have you put a link belt on it.
>
> I didn't need a link belt. My saw vibrated all over the place too.
> Then I burnt the belt while sawing some damn hard maple.
> Problem solved. The belt was so soft and supple after stinking up the
> place, that it no longer vibrated. The problem was the freakin belt.
I find that if I use my tools on a near daily basis that they all run
smoother. It's when they sit for weeks or months, and the belts take a set,
that vibration is really noticeable. The cabinet saw, with it's three belts,
is not immune to this phenomenon.
John
On 12 Apr 2012 01:46:34 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> Han, it wasn't one patent. These <expletive deleted> guys patented
>> anything even remotely associated with the process. Depending on who's
>> quoting it, they took out somewhere between FIFTY and SEVENTY FIVE
>> patents on this -one- product.
>
>I know, Larry, that there was a bunch of patents. Didn't know it was that
>many, but that is the guy's bread and butter (plus caviar).
And all the while, they make seemingly altruistic noises (feigning OUR
safety as their driving ambition) in front of regulatory commissions
and in the courtroom...
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:46:49 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>Snip
>
>>
>>
>>> IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
>>> but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
>>> issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
>>> thousands.
>>
>> Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
>> small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.
>
>You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
>in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.
Had you read any of the info on the case, you would have seen it
listed numerous times. RE: Delta, one look at the bloody price they
ask and you'll be able to guess why the sales numbers are slim.
I don't recall which document I read that gave those numbers, but it
was one of the legal papers. Looking online, I see that recalls give
you some interesting numbers.
Ryobo 21.5k, Ridgid 3k, DeWalt 13k, and those are only recalls of
individual models, not the total sales. The numbers are BIG.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11066.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09311.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08259.html
Here ya go: Skil 120,000 http://tinyurl.com/89elgk2
Now go wash your mind out with soap for not believing me. <snort>
>>> Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
>>> the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
>>> is in today.
>>
>> <g>
>>
>>
>>> Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that pissed a few people off?
>>> Absoluteness! It pisses me off that the other manufacturers did not
>>> want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
>>> over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
>>> Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
>>> had their chance and watched it go by.
>>
>> Did you just make that up?<g> See if you can prove that the mfgrs
>> didn't want us to see this happen.
>
>No, that is just common sense. Had the manufacturers thought it would
>have sold they would have been making them today. They chose not to let
>us have the opportunity.
PROVE IT! Don't just guess it. (See how it feels, turkey?) ;)
>> The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
>> of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
>> gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.
>
>How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell me
>if you think a seat belt is small in price...
>
>AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I have
>the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required and was
>only $50 more expensive.
Not true. But I'd sure hate to pay it to Gass, now that I've seen a
tiny bit of his playbook.
>>>>> I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
>>>>> regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
>>>>> saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
>>>>> to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.
>>>>
>>>> A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
>>>> That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?
>
>You totally missed the point. I cannot explain it any simpler.
No, you missed it, Leon. A guard adds little to the overall price. A
SS could -triple- the cost of an inexpensive saw. A few bucks can be
saved up for, but triple the cost takes the things right out of the
realm of -possibility- for poor people. People who need things saved
for them, both then and now.
>>> Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
>>> was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
>>> spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
>>> expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
>>> take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
>>> things being relative..
>>
>> I paid $119 for my refurb Ryobi saw. A $300 option would have put it
>> up to about $600 retail. Lots of people buy the cheap 10" saws, Leon.
>> Not everyone can afford $4k for a SS or Unisaw. Check your reference
>> levels.
>
>Apples new saws, Oranges, refurbished saws.
New they're $150-200. Apples to apples. Jesus, buy a clue, dude!
>Now change that to a new saw and adjust prices 50 years ago to todays
>prices or visa versa.
See my points above.
>>>>> We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
>>>>> have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
>>>>> buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
>>>>> homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
>>>>> sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
>>>>> power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is no different.
>>>>
>>>> Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
>>>> us now, thanks to SS.
>>>
>>> None that "you" know of, do some research.
>>
>> Do you know of specific regs back then? If so, let me know. There
>> weren't many. The nanny state came up way later. We grew up in it.
>
>Ummm the guard was not an option.
Neither was an electric table saw, for most people. There might have
been one per large construction company back then. Homeowners didn't
get them until the late fifties/early sixties, I believe.
>>> Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?
>>
>> I guarantee he wasn't ruining Corvairs or contractor lives in the
>> '40s.
>
>What ever!
<g>
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:01:13 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
>Modifying either would not change the mechanicals....
>This may be worth exploring so you can get yourself a cabinet saw...??
I appreciate you considering this, but that's not my main current
problem. I live in an apartment and don't have a suitable location to
set up a table saw. The contractor's saw I had and still use on
occasion, I sold very cheaply to a friend and I can get to go over and
use it on occasion in summer time since it lives in his garage. Most
of my woodworking is done as dustless as possible in my living room.
In the Toronto area, I've been looking for an accessible location (or
one that I can make accessible) to rent or share with someone for well
over fifteen years. ~ Nada.
There are a few co-ops, but not locations I'd want to leave personal
tools at or where I could use my own tools and table saw. So, I keep
looking.
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:40:58 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>I prefer my contractors saw to a cabinet saw for a bunch of reasons, all
>related to building my own cabinet to my specifications, none related to
>the nickle test.
Well, it might be directly related to where I've used it during the
last thirtyfive years. For a number of those years it was on the front
porch of my mother's house, on a sloped floor with a 8°-10° slant.
Since then, it's been dragged out for use on a block patio. So from
the get go, the conditions haven't be ideal.
But even before then on a poured concrete floor, it vibrated. Doesn't
matter dammit. I want a cabinet saw or I'll have a temper tantrum.
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:46:49 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> Snip
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
>>>> but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
>>>> issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
>>>> thousands.
>>>
>>> Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
>>> small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.
>>
>> You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
>> in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.
>
> Had you read any of the info on the case, you would have seen it
> listed numerous times. RE: Delta, one look at the bloody price they
> ask and you'll be able to guess why the sales numbers are slim.
> I don't recall which document I read that gave those numbers, but it
> was one of the legal papers. Looking online, I see that recalls give
> you some interesting numbers.
> Ryobo 21.5k, Ridgid 3k, DeWalt 13k, and those are only recalls of
> individual models, not the total sales. The numbers are BIG.
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11066.html
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09311.html
Hazard: The table saws arbor shaft can fail when used with a stacked
blade set (commonly known as a stacked dado set), which is used to cut
grooves. The stacked blade set can be ejected from the saw, posing a
potential laceration hazard to consumers.
-- Me: Gosh, that could be very unsettling!
Incidents/Injuries: One World Technologies has received three reports of
shafts failing when used with a stacked dado set. No injuries have been
reported.
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:44:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
>Retroactive sales would have skyrocketed that into quadruple millions
>apiece.
>Now stop lying about how I feel. It's not funny any more.
Same reply. There's so many more American villains who are really
despicably evil and yet your direct your anger against Gass. Compared
to whatever he has done, and or is doing legally, Gass is a small time
player.
There's people who have defrauded thousands out of their homes and
life savings, and yet, Gass is the one that has your attention, your
enmity. Kind of short sighted I'd say.
I recommend that all you MBAs upset with the connotation of terms like
"MBA-think" just get over it and get on with life, like lawyers did. :)
--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
In article <[email protected]>, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
>> Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.
>>
>> And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and ply.
>
>Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
>that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
>melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
>gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.
>
>Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
>money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
>printing press.
>
>--
>Jack
>Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
>http://jbstein.com
Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and I'm
under 60 (barely)
--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
tiredofspam wrote:
> Sorry, I don't agree.
>
> There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
> Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
> they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
> away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
> place, is now no longer to be found. Good??? maybe for some bottom
> lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.
>
> We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
> partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
> America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
> third of the pie.
As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in
the big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat" (take
chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the likes of
Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not just the MBA
"save a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation)
structure--which is to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my
bonuses, retire nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the boat)".
Bill
>
> On 4/10/2012 10:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>>>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>>>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>>>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>>>
>>> MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>>> since to the ridiculous extreme of
>>> bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>>> mentality.
>>
>> The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
>> Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
>> the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
>> a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
>> sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
>> can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
>> it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.
>>
>> I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
>> up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.
>>
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Larry W" wrote:
>
>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>> I'm
>> under 60 (barely)
> ------------------------------------
> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
> the late '50s.
>
> Known as "gas wars".
So that "point 9" was worth 5%! I sort of remember 32.9/gal in metro
Detroit, but I was too young to drive. My first car. a '69 LeSabre with
its 26 gallon tank remembered it though. Even in 1981, I could
nullify a fifty dollar bill with one tank. : )
>
>
> Lew
>
>
>
Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 12:43 PM, Dave wrote:
>> And, your example of Home Depot also falls short. Board width has
>> diminished at HD.
>
> That's garbage Dave, as long as I've been buying wood, the width of
> lumber has been the same. A 2x6 is 5.5 inches, same as it was then. A
> 1x8 is 7 1/4, same as it was then. You don't know what your talking
> about, or your HD is ripping you off.
I've rarely had need for 2x6 but time was when a 2x4 was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8.
Now, 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.
As far as quality goes, things like clear, edge grain fir were readily
available at decent prices (in the west at least). FAS hardwoods too. That
was pre-Home Depot.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Bill wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 12:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> It isn't high? Things have doubled in price in the last few years.
>> The Gov. reports low inflation. Yet doubling is not low. Sorry I
>> don't agree with the inflation numbers. There's something wrong with
>> them.
>
> Yes, some things have increased alot. I don't have a convenient
> "marketbasket" to compare. It would be interesting to assemble one.
Here are a few thing I recall...
1940s
Shakes, malts, ice cream sodas : $0.15
Banana split: $0.35
Hot dog: $0.10
with chili: $0.12
Comic books: $0.10
Ice cream cone: $0.05 one scoop, $0.10 two scoops
Most candy bars: $0.05. Ditto soft drinks
4 BR/1 bath house w/finished attic: $5500
Smaller home: $3500
Post WW2 new tract home: <$10,000
Bread: $0.10/loaf
Milk: $0.10/quart
1951
Minimum wage: $0.75
1939 Chevy "Town & Country" business coupe: $175
Gas: usually, low $0.20s. Sometimes more, sometimes less. A quarter
each from myself & two friends would let us ride around for hours saying...
"Whatta you wanna do?"
"I dunno, whatta *YOU* wanna do?"
Hamburger, White Castle: $0.10
Hamburger, normal: $0.25
Hamburger, deluxe (lettuce & tomato): $0.35
Decent dinner for two in good restaurant: < $5.00
Rent, 1 BR furnished Honolulu apartment: $65
Salary, "girl friday", low end: $35/week
1954-58
Minimum wage: $1.00 (1955?)
Beer by the case: $0.10/bottle
Beer at neighborhood bar: $0.25
Call whisky at upscale SF bar: $1.00
1/5 Haig & Haig Pinch scotch: $8.99
1951 Studebacker Starlight coupe: $795
Head of lettuce: $0.29 (?)
Pound of hamburger: $0.29
One way air, SF > LA: $13
Rent, 1 BR unfuurnished apartment: $85/month
State university tuition: $15/credit hour
Local cafe type restaurant meal: $0.55 - $1.00
3# box of American cheese, *NOT* sliced & wrapped: $3.00
1956
New Ford Victoria (not Crown): $2000 +-
1958
One way air, SF > Honolulu: > $175
Rent, 1 BR furnished Honolulu apartment: $135+
Couch, 2 chairs, 3 tables, 3 lamps, dining table w/6 chairs, room
divider/planter, 200+ sq.ft abaca rug, 8x10 seagrass rug; all from mid-upper
store, all rattan: $1500
1959-late 60s (all Honolulu, more expensive than mainland)
3 BR tract house, leased land: $19000-25000
Ice cream: $0.69/half gallon
New 1965 Datsun (Nissan) station wagon: $2500
New 1966 Triumph Spitfire: $2500
Rent, 1500 sq.ft commercial space: $250/month
Salary, "girl friday": $220-250/month
Air dried koa: $0.50 brd.ft
Walnut: $1.25 brd.ft
Teak: $1.35 brd.ft
Dinner for two at upscale French restaurant including drinks & tip: $25
Local cafe type restaurant meal: $0.95-1.50 (included soup or appetizer,
salad, bread & butter, entree, starch, vegetable, beverage & dessert).
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 4/11/2012 7:57 AM, Han wrote:
...
> That reasoning leaves out the increased efficiency in using energy.
> Right now, natural gas is even cheaper than coal, and much more friendly
> for the environment. That may not last forever, but seems likely for at
> least a number of years. Electric propulsion for vehicles is alo much
> more efficient than gasoline, but it suffers from the big HUGE problem of
> storage. You can't really store electricity very easily. Li batteries
> were a great leap forward, but we need at least another 10-fold greater
> storage capability per unit mass, plus the ability to quickly recharge.
> Not very easy to accomplish.
But using NG for central generation is simply "just stupid" use of the
resource that is far more important for things like heating,
petrochemicals, etc., etc., etc., ... It is a _VERY_ shortsighted fix
to what isn't clearly a problem.
I also don't think there's that much overall efficiency gained in the
EV--even best central-station generation is only approx 40% thermal
efficiency so even if the transmission and utilization were 100% that's
not "much more" efficient than burning the fuel directly. Some,
perhaps, but "much"? -- I don't think so--that juice has to come from
somewhere, and unless you're willing to take it as can find it, it has
to be backed up by baseload generation from some source. As long as you
talk only on peripheral marginal replacement rather than a major source
one can get by but when it becomes a dominant factor the rules on
availability change drastically.
--
Bill wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 12:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> It isn't high? Things have doubled in price in the last few years.
>> The Gov. reports low inflation. Yet doubling is not low. Sorry I
>> don't agree with the inflation numbers. There's something wrong with
>> them.
>
> Yes, some things have increased alot. I don't have a convenient
> "marketbasket" to compare. It would be interesting to assemble one.
Here's a link to a site with a *ton* of historic price info...
http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq5.html
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
In article <[email protected]>
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
>> like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
>> they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
>> on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.
>
>
>I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
>lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
>but IMHO not the best way.
My local Woodcraft has their baltic birch plywood on edge, at least
the partial sheets. I didn't spot the full sheets.
--
Drew Lawson | I'd like to find your inner child
| and kick its little ass
On 4/10/2012 2:01 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>> Sorry, but all markets are filled. Larry can buy his cheap stuff, I can
>> buy my mediocre stuff, and you and Leon can buy your overpriced, I mean,
>> top quality stuff. The largest market is the cheap stuff, so that is
>> what abounds, the smallest market is the high priced stuff, so it
>> doesn't abound. It's as simple as that.
>
> Well since you have mention me I will make a comment. Until you have
> actually purchased and used all levels of and including quality tools
> and equipment you will never ever understand how higher quality is the
> better choice every time. You may now put your head back in the sand.
Out of curiosity, do you drive a Bentley and your pickup is a Lincoln,
or don't you understand what a quality vehicle is?
Do you really think you're the only one that uses/recognizes good tools
because you own a $500 vacuum cleaner? Sometimes I wonder where your
head is, and sand ain't it.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/10/2012 2:27 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Jack<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Every once in a while they'll buy some good plywood and sell it for an
> excellent price. It's worth a look when you're in the store. If your HD
> has a cull cart, that's worth a look as well. (Just don't pick over the
> cart at my local store until I've had a chance! :-))
My store used to have a cull cart and I never went into the store w/o
going over it. Some days it was jammed with good stuff. They no longer
have it, at least for the past few months. I hate going to any store, I
hate shopping, barely tolerate going to tool/hardware stores. I know I
went to HD more than I do now just because I enjoyed the cull cart.
I've made some nice deck furniture, chairs and benches, and even a pool
(spectator) chair out of that stuff. The spectator chair I made as a
prototype, planning to make it out of oak if it turned out well. It
turned out so well I didn't bother to make another one in oak.
http://jbstein.com/Flick/PoolChair1030955.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/PoolChair1030948.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/P1050208.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/P1010981.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/P1040481.jpg
The majority of the wood in all those came from HD, and most of it from
the cull cart at 50 cents a board. The spectator chair probably cost me
$2.50 to build, in fact all the wood in the above pictures probably
didn't cost me $20.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/10/2012 3:54 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:23:53 -0400, Jack<[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't lie, ever, period. The lumber at my HD is as good or better
>> than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's. The prices I
>> looked up, I didn't guess. I guess you need to take my word on the
>> quality, but trust me, I have no reason to lie, and wouldn't if I did.
>
> And you're calling me a lying sack of shit? Over and over, you seem to
> be the one arguing one side of the fence while everybody else is on
> the other side.
So far, you are the ONLY one stating HD wood is not as wide as it used
to be, or that cheap wood was knot free and straight grained in the
70's. You are wrong on both counts, and it doesn't matter if no one or
everyone agrees with you.
> Why is that?I can only suppose it's a desperate need for attention.
I don't know, you clearly are an idiot, and if I wasn't in "desperate
need for attention", I guess I would simply let you prattle on unchallenged.
> Why else would you be right and everybody else be
> wrong?
Dunno. How wide are the boards now at your HD? Perhaps your tape
measure is out of whack?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Swingman wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 5:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in
>> the big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat" (take
>> chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the likes of
>> Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not just the MBA "save
>> a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation) structure--which is
>> to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire
>> nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the boat)".
>
> That's only part of it, but not the worst part.
>
> That worst part is the mentality that the recipient of an MBA is somehow
> suddenly endowed with the knowledge to the point of needing to know
> nothing about a product to run the company making the product; the
> mentality that "acquisition" is the all encompassing solution to
> innovation; the part that fires the experience responsible for the very
> innovation and quality that made the company a worthwhile acquisition in
> the first to place pursue mediocrity in worshiping the bottom line; the
> mentality that insulates management from consumers; the idea that
> appearance, and not substance, is the only quality necessary ...
Nicely stated.
On 4/10/2012 4:39 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> If you are ever at Lake George again consider renting an island.
> You have to reserve it early. But camping on those islands is great.
> The breeze is refreshing. The water clear. The fishing unbeleavable. My
> BIL and I went out at 5am and we were just trolling, and he caught a
> lake trout without a down rigger. It was unbelievable watching him take
> this fish in. The dance on the water was outstanding.
>
> They have bass by the buckets. The kids (all young then) had a blast.
>
> They have islands with 1,2,3 ... 120 camping spots. So you can pick
> yours out. We liked the north east side of the lake for camping.
We went on one of the boat tours and saw those islands. Looked great
but our camping days are long past us. At one time camping was a large
part of our free time and we commented how great it would have been to
take our boat and camp on one of those islands.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/10/2012 8:35 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>>>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>>>
>>> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>>> posterity.
>>
>> No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
>> fault of "MBAthink"
>>
>> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
>> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
> You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
> tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
Yes, the MBAthinkers at Festool have a clear view of Texans and their
wallets, just as the MBAthinkers at Ryobi have a clear view of the moths
in Larry's.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 8:45 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
>> like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
>> they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
>> on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.
>
>
> I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
> lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it but
> IMHO not the best way.
Me neither, but it is the way I store it. It may be the best way if you
have limited space. Not the best way if your space is measured in acres.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> I have never experienced a piece of wood twisting on me (that wasn't already
> twisted in the store...), in the simple time to get it home and into my
> shop. Maybe I just got lucky.
Me neither. I guess we're both just lucky.
I do remember the very first oak table I made with turned legs made out
of pallet wood. One leg had a knot in it and after a short time, the
leg bent right at the knot. The table is still in use at my mothers
house though, and the drawer in it only opens in the dead of winter:-)
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 12:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Jack<[email protected]> writes:
The lumber at my HD is as good or better
>> than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's.
>
> In other words, you were getting shit in the 70's, and you're getting
> shit today.
No, I was getting #2 lumber then, just as now.
> Clearly, there will be geographical differences in what is available.
Very likely.
> In the west, in the 70's, even regular studs were old-growth douglas
> fir, tight straight grain.
Not around here. If fact, long before the 70's old growth (domestic)
lumber was all but non existent around here. Most all old growth
forests were cut and milled long, long ago, and the few remaining are
not accessible to loggers.
In the 70's, old-growth redwood was common
> and beautiful. Good luck finding either today.
In the early 70's I bought a redwood picnic table. I actually thought
it was Redwood. When I started assembling it, turned out it was really
white wood (pine) stained red. I actually, in my youth, called the
Better Business Bureau and he asked if it was Redwood or redwood...
Anyway, I didn't think Redwood grew anywhere but California, and cutting
those babies was not happening anymore?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 3:28 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Jack<[email protected]> writes:
>
>> In the 70's, old-growth redwood was common
>>> and beautiful. Good luck finding either today.
>>
>> In the early 70's I bought a redwood picnic table. I actually thought
>> it was Redwood. When I started assembling it, turned out it was really
>> white wood (pine) stained red. I actually, in my youth, called the
>> Better Business Bureau and he asked if it was Redwood or redwood...
>>
>> Anyway, I didn't think Redwood grew anywhere but California, and cutting
>> those babies was not happening anymore?
>
> If you'd read what I wrote, you would have noticed the "In the 70's" and
> "good luck finding it today".
I did read what you wrote, ergo my reply.
> As it happens, there is still quite a bit of redwood being cut, as it grows
> relatively fast. None of it is old-growth (100+ year old trees), the few
> that are left are protected.
I wondered where they were getting redwood, I mean Redwood.
> Of that which _is_ being cut, there is much less heartwood, which is the
> most insect and rot resistant. Most wood fencing material in california
> is redwood, still.
Someone once gave me old Redwood picnic table that was actually Redwood.
I think it was one of the only Redwood things I owned. It rotted and
I salvaged what I could and made stuff for around my pool. It was nice,
but really soft wood.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 3:33 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 11:06 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> Until you have actually purchased and used all levels of and including quality tools
>>> and equipment you will never ever understand how higher quality is the
>>> better choice every time. You may now put your head back in the sand.
>>
>> Out of curiosity, do you drive a Bentley and your pickup is a Lincoln,
>> or don't you understand what a quality vehicle is?
>
> I retired from the automotive industry at age 40 and comfortably. I
> certainly know what a quality vehicle is.
How could that be unless you purchased a Bentley or a Rolls assuming
these are high quality cars, based on price, not that I ever actually
purchased one? If you did, then I can see why a $500, or $645 shop vac
doesn't phase you.
But since you are asking me, do you?
Well, I never purchased a Bentley so I guess I have no way of knowing
what quality is. Well, I did own a Caddy once, piece of junk if you ask
me, but it was my wife's, does that count?
>> Do you really think you're the only one that uses/recognizes good tools
>> because you own a $500 vacuum cleaner? Sometimes I wonder where your
>> head is, and sand ain't it.
> Jack you are just jealous, I have see your kind of response time and
> again. I am sure you recognize what a good tool Festool and Saw Stop are
> but your belligerence will not allow you to admit it. Too bad.
Can you read? I've must have said a hundred, maybe a thousand times
that Festools and Saw Stops are quality tools? You just make this shit
up or what?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/11/2012 9:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves
>>> quickly, like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it
>>> upright when they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as
>>> quickly). Its tougher on the edges. But it also allows you to go in
>>> an look through the ply.
>>
>>
>> I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
>> lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
>> but IMHO not the best way.
>
> Thank you Leon! I haven't either, but I didn't want to advertise... But...
> I figure if a guy with Festools can admit that, then so can I! Then again,
> I have never experienced a piece of wood twisting on me (that wasn't already
> twisted in the store...), in the simple time to get it home and into my
> shop. Maybe I just got lucky.
>
I try not to store 3/4" that way and I try to cut it as soon as I get to
the shop with it. 1/4" might fold in half before I get around to
cutting it. LOL
If you are ever at Lake George again consider renting an island.
You have to reserve it early. But camping on those islands is great.
The breeze is refreshing. The water clear. The fishing unbeleavable. My
BIL and I went out at 5am and we were just trolling, and he caught a
lake trout without a down rigger. It was unbelievable watching him take
this fish in. The dance on the water was outstanding.
They have bass by the buckets. The kids (all young then) had a blast.
They have islands with 1,2,3 ... 120 camping spots. So you can pick
yours out. We liked the north east side of the lake for camping.
On 4/10/2012 1:46 PM, Jack wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm looking for one now. I was on vacation in Lake George, NY and
> the place we stayed at had a small specialty lumber yard right next
> door. They had good stuff at decent prices, and I was going to load up
> my truck but got pressed for time and passed. It was the most exciting
> part of the vacation:-) Don't know where on earth they got the wood, as
> the whole damn place is a national park or something and not allowed to
> cut trees, dead or alive? I think if a chainsaw was heard, a tree
> hugging swat team would swoop down and shoot the sorry sucker.
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 10:50:11 -0400, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com>
>That hammer is awesome. I like the doweling and mortising capability in
>one unit. Wooo hooo.
>> http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/jointerplaners/jointer-planer-a3-41--410-mm.html
There's only one problem. As time goes by machines are getting better
and more capable, but the quality of available wood is diminishing
right in front of our eyes. Of course, living in the centre of a city
will do that to you.
When I win the lottery and can afford all these great new tools, I'll
be moving to some house on a pristine lake with a substantial stand of
harvestable trees around me. Or at the very least, a decent lumber
yard within traveling distance.
On 4/11/2012 8:41 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:06:32 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> But but but I live in Texas!!! Driving across Texas is like driving
>> Across all of Germany 2~3 times. A trip from eastern Germany to western
>> Germany is like driving from one large city to the next in Texas, When
>> you don't have far to go price is not a big of a factor in living expenses.
>
> Granted. I watched a home buying show yesterday. They were looking for
> a home in Texas and the number one factor in their search was the
> commute time from the suburb to the city. It came down to being close
> to friends and a two hour commute to the city or living close to the
> city and being too far from friends. They ended up buying a home
> midway between the two destinations.
>
> All that space you Texicans have down there comes with a price.
I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
yard. ;~)
I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
>> yard. ;~)
>
>> I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
>> salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
>> rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.
>
> I've always wondered how that works?
> What's to stop a nearby neighbour
> from sinking an oil well in his back yard?
As long as he owns all the mineral rights, only the cost of drilling the
well. There are also state laws which may prohibit drilling in certain
areas.
> My thought is that they'd
> both be siphoning from the same pool of oil.
That's a good chance, depending upon the size of your tract, and the size
of the producing reservoir. in most states, whoever can siphon it off the
fastest gets to keep what he produces from his tract, regardless of the
size of the reservoir.
> Does the first neighbour
> have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil?
Depends upon whether he owns any of the mineral rights. And he even if he
does, he may be forced to drill himself to get any of it, depending upon
the "pooling" acreage requirements of the state.
> How do they
> determine who owns what and who has a right to access it?
That varies from state to state, but whoever owns the mineral rights can be
determined by researching the records in the county or parish courthouse
where the deed records are kept.
> Does a
> surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
> square surface land rights?
That depends upon whether the mineral rights were sold with the surface
rights. In many cases, particularly in parts of the country where there is
a history of oil and gas production, mineral rights are often severed and
reserved from the surface rights.
And finally, how deep do those rights go?
All the way to the center of the earth. :)
> Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.
Drilling for oil is an expensive and risky business, not undertaken lightly
and without an enormous amount of due diligence in establishing mineral
rights and ownership BEFORE drilling. There is an old saying in the "oil
bidness" ... " a dry hole cures all land titles" .... a successful well
will bring all sorts of heretofore unknown owners out of the woodwork.
--
www.ewoodshop.com
On 4/11/2012 4:50 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:24:10 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/11/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:41:39 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>>>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>> under 60 (barely)
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
>>>>>>> the late '50s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Known as "gas wars".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
>>>>>> filling up my car for $2.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>>>>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>>>>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>>>>
>>>> So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
>>>> to be in 1970`1972.
>>>> A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
>>>> now about $40k
>>>
>>> I found an exceedingly good value in my $26k Toyota Tundra.
>>
>> And that is about what I paid but I was talking sticker price then and
>> now. My middle of the road model snickered for $34k and I am pretty
>> sure yours snickered for considerably more also.
>
> No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
> bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
> battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
> windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)
Scratching head.... was that sticker??? Probably not, I paid exactly
$28k drive out but the truck stickered for $34K+
But I got,,... ;~) 5.7 V* and honestly getting just under 17 mpg on
average in town driving. 6 auto speed trans, 4 door, SR5, running
boards, bed protector, towing package, AC and pwr doors windows, Stipe,
tinted front windows, Toyota alarm with glass break, mats, sliding back
glass, Alloy wheels, tool box under back seat, extra sound deadening.
And a beautiful grey interior and charcoal grey exterior. ;~)
>
> OK, checking on a brand new one today: I can't get a V-6 without
> going to a freakin' double cab, so 4-cyl w/5sp auto it is. $26,141.
> The local Ford dealer wanted about $40k for the same vehicle when I
> was doing my research in '07.
>
> --
> Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
> wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
> -- Henry George
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:06:32 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>But but but I live in Texas!!! Driving across Texas is like driving
>Across all of Germany 2~3 times. A trip from eastern Germany to western
>Germany is like driving from one large city to the next in Texas, When
>you don't have far to go price is not a big of a factor in living expenses.
Granted. I watched a home buying show yesterday. They were looking for
a home in Texas and the number one factor in their search was the
commute time from the suburb to the city. It came down to being close
to friends and a two hour commute to the city or living close to the
city and being too far from friends. They ended up buying a home
midway between the two destinations.
All that space you Texicans have down there comes with a price.
On 12 Apr 2012 01:05:08 GMT, Puckdropper
>There's nothing on the display to indicate what's different and the guy
>at the store doesn't know, so how am I supposed to make an informed
>decision? All I have to go on is price, and lower is better.
That's where time and experience comes in. That, and knowing that if
it's coming from Home Depot, youse takes yur chances.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:24:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:41:39 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> under 60 (barely)
>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
>>>>>> the late '50s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Known as "gas wars".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
>>>>> filling up my car for $2.
>>>>
>>>> Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
>>>> home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
>>>> $80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.<gack>
>>>
>>> So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
>>> to be in 1970`1972.
>>> A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
>>> now about $40k
>>
>> I found an exceedingly good value in my $26k Toyota Tundra.
>
>And that is about what I paid but I was talking sticker price then and
>now. My middle of the road model snickered for $34k and I am pretty
>sure yours snickered for considerably more also.
No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)
OK, checking on a brand new one today: I can't get a V-6 without
going to a freakin' double cab, so 4-cyl w/5sp auto it is. $26,141.
The local Ford dealer wanted about $40k for the same vehicle when I
was doing my research in '07.
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On 4/11/2012 8:41 AM, Dave wrote:
> All that space you Texicans have down there comes with a price.
Yep ... and the biggest price they have to pay is that most everyone
over 30 is from somewhere else (including me). ;)
Texas is especially beautiful at the moment. In a word, bluebonnets:
http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/Texas/Flower_Bluebonnet.html
A trip to Brenham from Houston this past Sunday was treat for even the
colorblind.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:12:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
>> I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff
I like it when lumber yards do that, especially when I'm looking for
book matched plywood. It makes it much easier to sift through the
patterns for something that appeals to me.
On 4/10/2012 5:57 PM, Bill wrote:
> As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in
> the big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat" (take
> chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the likes of
> Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not just the MBA "save
> a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation) structure--which is
> to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire
> nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the boat)".
That's only part of it, but not the worst part.
That worst part is the mentality that the recipient of an MBA is somehow
suddenly endowed with the knowledge to the point of needing to know
nothing about a product to run the company making the product; the
mentality that "acquisition" is the all encompassing solution to
innovation; the part that fires the experience responsible for the very
innovation and quality that made the company a worthwhile acquisition in
the first to place pursue mediocrity in worshiping the bottom line; the
mentality that insulates management from consumers; the idea that
appearance, and not substance, is the only quality necessary ...
... and those fucking haircuts, ferrcrissakes! Who do they think they
are, politicians?
Well, as a matter of fact ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 00:08:51 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
wrote:
>I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
>I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
Um, maybe because a jointer does the thin faces and the planer does
the wide, flat faces? That said, a wider jointer can be used to face
lumber, too, though it doesn't do quite as nice a job.
--
Life is an escalator:
You can move forward or backward;
you can not remain still.
-- Patricia Russell-McCloud
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
I never owned a BT3000 but I know that it had a following.
On 4/9/2012 7:38 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/8/2012 10:33 PM, Duesenberg wrote:
>> On 4/7/2012 10:44 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> RonB wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apparently Ryobi adopted the Craftsman business
>>>> model because it has been down hill since the late 90's. Shop
>>>> carefully and use on-line reviews before you end up buying a bargain
>>>> that will frustrate you for as long as you own the machine.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, Ryobi (which used to be pretty decent stuff at one
>>> time), has
>>> become the universal junk line - across all of their product set. Their
>>> power equipment is pure junk these days.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Ryobi is made by the same Chinese company as Ridgid power tools and
>> Milwaukee power tools are.
>
> Perhaps more accurately, "Some" of those tools are made by a Chinese
> tool company.
>
>>
>> Apparently The same company that makes Ryobi tools also makes Craftsman
>> and Mastercraft, however I was always under the Impression that
>> Craftsman were made by the most part, by Skil and Craftsman Professional
>> by Bosch.
>
> Ryobi has made some of the Craftsman power tools for decades. Along with
> DeWalt, Bosch, B&D, etc.
>
>>
>> Skil and Ryobi power tools were owned by the same company in the 1990s
>> but that is no longer the case.
>
> Skil has been owned by Bosch since the mid 90's.
>
On 4/11/2012 8:45 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:42:39 -0400, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
>>> Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
>>> would likely never have come to be.
>> WHAT? Where'd you get that from?
>
> I was thinking the opposite, but I wrote it down ass backwards. Mea
> Culpa.
Actually, there is more than a grain of truth in both. A crappy
mousetrap indeed led to a better mousetrap.
And think were we would be, without the Model T. :)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/11/2012 8:45 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:42:39 -0400, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
>>> Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
>>> would likely never have come to be.
>> WHAT? Where'd you get that from?
>
> I was thinking the opposite, but I wrote it down ass backwards. Mea
> Culpa.
I know'd you know'd better. ;~)
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:28:09 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/11/2012 6:48 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
>>> with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.
>>
>> Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
>> would likely never have come to be. Except of course, when you create
>> a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
>> demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.
>>
>> As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
>> made, unique product.
>
>
>Or take the Fein Multimaster.. There are now cheap and crap versions
>made by other manufacturers.
Fein had their years in the limelight, and that's good. But I couldn't
afford the Fein. I couldn't afford NOT to buy the $25 version of it
from HF. Many hours later, the "crap" version is humming along as if
it'll live forever, like their noisy angle grinders. Works for me.
--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:24:45 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
>Those of us whom have been here on the rec for a long time recall the days
>when Rob was a participant. That participation suggests to me that he is
>interested in knowing what people think and what they want in ways that goes
>beyond bean counting. Not that bean counting isn't important... without
>profits organizations fail and we loose!
He still does participate occasionally, but I'm guessing increasing
business concerns have limited that participation. I know he reads
comments on the Festool owners group and has also replied in several
areas fairly recently.
The entire Festool owners group website is grouped to different topics
and is moderated. Many of those discussions stay on track and are
easier to search. Here? A conversation can and does go off topic at
light speed. So, I'm guess Rob isn't near as active here as he once
was.
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:24:45 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
>>Those of us whom have been here on the rec for a long time recall the days
>>when Rob was a participant. That participation suggests to me that he is
>>interested in knowing what people think and what they want in ways that
>>goes
>>beyond bean counting. Not that bean counting isn't important... without
>>profits organizations fail and we loose!
>
> He still does participate occasionally, but I'm guessing increasing
> business concerns have limited that participation. I know he reads
> comments on the Festool owners group and has also replied in several
> areas fairly recently.
>
> The entire Festool owners group website is grouped to different topics
> and is moderated. Many of those discussions stay on track and are
> easier to search. Here? A conversation can and does go off topic at
> light speed. So, I'm guess Rob isn't near as active here as he once
> was.
Yup... that's what he told me about why he isn't here the way he was... The
signal to noise ratio is out of whack here at times for sure!
On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>
>>> It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
>>> the good the bad and the ugly.
>>
>> Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
>> posterity.
>
> No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
> fault of "MBAthink"
>
> You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
> figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?
>
You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:15:49 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>I agree that he could have agreed to different terms than he was originally
>seeking, but you suggesting what those terms should be is a bit arrogant.
And isn't that the American way? Striving for the gold ring in the
land of wealth where all things are possible? I'm Canadian, but my
values aren't too far removed from that ideal.
I see very little wrong with Gass attempting to do what he's been
accused of doing. I'd suggest that even if he didn't try to have his
device mandated, chances are it would have happened anyway. Gass is
just trying to speed up the process. How many of us would turn down
the opportunity to be in Gass' shoes and become a really rich person?
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:18:35 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
>Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
>when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
>the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
>fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
>the discussion.
What changes the context of the discussion is comparing what the
general public felt about seat belts then and what they feel about
them now.
Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 17:44:44 -0700, Larry Jaques
>No, you missed it, Leon. A guard adds little to the overall price. A
>SS could -triple- the cost of an inexpensive saw. A few bucks can be
>saved up for, but triple the cost takes the things right out of the
>realm of -possibility- for poor people. People who need things saved
>for them, both then and now.
Sorry, but trotting out the 'poor people' line doesn't cut it. Poor
people are also occasionally known to drink, smoke and buy junk food ~
all discretionary purchases. And all of those discretionary purchases
over the period of a year can add up to a tremendous amount of money.
In other words, an inexpensive table saw of any price is not a
necessity. Aside from those few 'poor people' who might use an
inexpensive table saw to earn a living, your argument is completely
baseless.
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:15:49 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> You still don't get it. I dislike what the SawStop owner is doing, not
>> the device itself. I'm not the slightest bit blind to the safety it
>> offers. I just don't want to have anything to do with some greedy
>> slimeball who couldn't sell his device (and should have nearly given
>> it away), that's all.
>
>That's where the bullshit part of your argument raises it's ugly head Larry.
>You seem to feel he should have given it away. How much of your labor and
>your intelect do you give away? Is your work and are your efforts worth
>compensation? Yet you have the balls to suggest that he should have nearly
>given it away? West Coast thinking!
What part of his raking in "millions of dollars" did you not
understand?
--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck
On 4/11/2012 11:03 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:18:35 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
>> Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
>> when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
>> the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
>> fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
>> the discussion.
>
> What changes the context of the discussion is comparing what the
> general public felt about seat belts then and what they feel about
> them now.
>
> Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
> Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
> attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.
As they will with the SawStop. Although the SawStop is being widely
accepted. There will be the exception hold outs however. And they will
continue to believe we never landed on the moon, etc.
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
>> the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
>> who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
>> JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.
>
>MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
>since to the ridiculous extreme of
>bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-fuck-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
>mentality.
I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
that's common to pricy tools, too.
I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book. <g> 1.5hp cuts just
fine, though. The fence is rather, well, wimpy, so I ad lib a bit.
I recently bought the large kit for less than an equivalent drill
motor from the top brands. $125 got me a drill motor, recip saw, circ
saw, flashlight, two batteries, charger, and nylon kit bag to carry
them in. The 18v circ saw outlasts my old 14.4v saw by a 3:1 margin,
but is still too short. That's the only negative thing I can say about
them. The drill motors have dual bubble levels on them, so you can
drill precisely vertically or horizontally. It's a GREAT idea, one
which I don't see on other brands. http://tinyurl.com/7am9bla
I think I first started buying Ryobis in 1999, though. Perhaps I
waited out the JD trashing and got good tools.
No, they're not Festools, but they have been great values, which is
what I look for. I'm not made of money, unlike you rich Texicans.
--
Live Simply. Speak Kindly. Care Deeply. Love Generously.
-- anon
On 08 Apr 2012 19:30:34 GMT, Puckdropper
>I'm giving up on ply. At least on the nicer face veneers that they
>charge more for. I figure for only a little more I can cut my own
>veneers from thick stock and get not only something I can sand, but a
>material where tear out is much less likely.
Important that you mentioned that. I still buy VC, veneered ply, but
I'm noticed the last several years how the most important layer, the
top veneer layer is getting thinner and thinner. Even with the initial
sanding, one has to be careful not to sand through it.
I'm almost at the stage where I'm considering buying just a regular
sheet of ply and facing it with a separate layer of veneer that I've
bought separately.
When I mean cheaper, I didn't mean for less expense. I meant garbage
cheaper. There is the perception that we can sell you junk and you will
like it.
Notice how many ways groceries are sold these days. Making a bigger
package and putting less weight in. That's MBA think. Unfortunately many
consumers just fall for it.
Later, I have to go to a lumber mill and pick up some Maple.
On 4/10/2012 12:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Sorry, I don't agree.
>>
>> There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
>
> Yes - sometimes. But not all of the time, which is what is implied by "MBA
> Think".
>
>
>> Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
>
> Bullshit. That has happened - but it is by no means the rule. I have
> worked in too many environments where the MBA's were not the culprits but
> the market dictated similar results.
>
>> they don't add to the choices.
>
> It is not their job to do so. Blame those who should have been responsible
> for that.
>
>> Since they are all taking the quality
>> away
>
> Bullshit again. That is just pure bullshit. It is so easy to blame MBA's
> while we conveniently ignore the consumer desire for throw away, cheap
> products...
>
>
>> and making it cheaper (not less expensive)
>
> That has always been an objective of business
>
>> , what used to be
>> common place, is now no longer to be found.
>
> So - just exactly what is it that used to be common place?
>
>> Good??? maybe for some
>> bottom lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not
>> be stopped.
>
> Nice rhetoric, but what does that mean?
>
>>
>> We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
>> partly responsible,
>
> Partly? How about "Mostlyh"?. Look how often you hear people here bitching
> about price. Sure - they say they'd be willing to pay for quality, but
> there is always a reason why that quality is not worth their opening their
> pockets. The consumer is a very large part of this equation.
>
>
>> but the MBA is responsible
>
> Bullshit - this is getting old. Do you really have any experience with
> MBA's in a manufacturing environment, besides reading about such things as
> GM 20 years ago?
>
>> , and so is corporate
>> America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
>> third of the pie.
>>
>
> But - you emphasize the MBA as the culprit...
>
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:49:31 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
>that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
>melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
>gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.
Sorry, can't agree with that viewpoint. The big difference these days
is the fact that the availability of quality wood has diminished
greatly. Sure, top quality wood is still available if you've got the
bucks, but even the high price hasn't kept up with the loss of quality
wood products. This is evidenced by the vanishing of lumberyards and
the companies who specialize in reclaimed wood.
Hell, it's pretty obvious when we see plastic composites replacing
deck boards. Sure, much the demand for this counterfeit cedar is
driven by people wanting material that doesn't decay. But, a great
deal of that demand is also driven by the high cost accompanied by the
lessening availability of the real product.
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Larry W" wrote:
>>
>>> Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
>>> I'm
>>> under 60 (barely)
>> ------------------------------------
>> Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
>> the late '50s.
>>
>> Known as "gas wars".
>>
>>
>
>19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
>filling up my car for $2.
Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
$80 the other day for a Tundra fillup. <gack>
--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles
On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 00:08:51 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
wrote:
>I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?
>
>I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?
>
>Thanks!
I'd really like to have one triple the width. OK, you just jointed
your 6" boards, planed them to the thickness you want, then glued them
together. Maybe it is not quite perfect. You put it through the
planer and now it is perfect!
Maybe you did not use the jointer at all. You bought a 1 x 12 or 1 x
8 pine board at the lumber yard. Your project would be perfect if the
two pieces in the center were 5/8" thick. Hey look, if will go right
through my planer!
My planer is 13". Coincidently, the most used cutting board in my
house is 12 7/8" wide, made from glued up pieces of maple.
Another reason is cost. The tool manufacturers can build 12" planers
at a much more reasonable price than a 12" joiner, so they do.