Shaper Fence modifications

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 2/24/2012 7:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> ...

> I don't know about the thought of trying to use the cope router cutters on
> the shaper--as I mentioned in the sub-thread w/ Sonny I hadn't really
> pursued this for a while and I find that indeed, apparently Lonnie Bird
> did follow up and Amana is now making the cope cutter to go with the sash
> set...
>
> <http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5155-ogee-window-sash-rail-router-bits.aspx?variantids=6103,0>
>
> Whether this profile matches their shaper window sash profile or not, I
> don't know--if does, that would be _a_good_thing_ (tm). :)

I guess worst case, if one of the three profiles they offer works, a router
table could be used for that step in the machining process. Alternatively a
router bit collet on the shaper. As I recall I have collets for 1/4" and
1/2" shafts... Now that I'm curious about this I'll have to root through the
shaper related drawer and take an inventory. I've also got a box of "shaper
stuff" my wife's cousin gave me. He's got a commercial shop and does
commercial work for banks, hotels, etc. He primarily uses a big 9 HP shaper
with 1 1/4" bits for production runs of doors, styles and rails, etc. so he
gave me a box with 1/2" and 3/4" shaper tooling.


> I also in looking discovered that Freud has now also jumped into the
> fray...seems like if one will do something, then they all will. I found
> listings for the CMT orange as well; I had thought they were belly-up (at
> least in US)?

I haven't paid much attention to router bit sets for quite some time as I
seldom use my router... maybe once every 1-2 years seems to be the pattern.
I hate the sound of the screaming motor so I prefer to use the shaper as
it's quieter, has more power, and less vibration. The shaper strikes me as a
much more civilized machine... ;~)

dpb, for your conideration:

Okay, this is certainly not my field, but I'll throw this out there.
Included in the large cache of bits I obtained, cheap ($250),
here's a small sample - http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/4035599632/in/photostream

I selected these: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/6928912193/in/photostream
Another view: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/6928912175/in/photostream

I will not likely ever use all of these bits. I bought a tool, at one
of those online auctions, and a large cache of router and drill bits
(must be 300-400 bits) came with the Lot. You seem to be able to
regrind your bit surfaces/edges. Though these are not stub shafts, I
thought maybe you could regrind them to something you can use, in
place of the cutters you are looking for or for the cope cutter John's
link shows..... I may even have a similar cope profile bit.

If you think you can modify/regrind these bits, I'll send them to
you. Is there any other bit profile, that you may want to form? I
can show you other bits I have, to see if any are applicable, if you
want to try regrinding those, too. I don't know if this type of bit
is appropriate for what you want or can use, but I have them and I
just as well give a few to someone that can use them.

Sonny

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 2/24/2012 11:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> ...
>
>> I too found the split fences were not co-planer... initially a source of
>> frustration until I realized what was going on. It was a bad assumption
>> to think they were co-planer! To solve that I jointed a piece of red oak
>> and put a strip of SPA 120 grit (from a roll) on it. I used that long
>> sanding block to joint the shaper fences when they were bolted up to the
>> cast iron (both the split and one piece).
>
> I just make sure the thickness is sufficient to ensure don't hit the
> mounting screw heads and just joint the whole thing with the fences in
> place...

I considered doing that but when I figured out how little it would take to
straighten it out I opted to use the long sanding block.

> For solid when I do want it, I just tack a piece onto the existing fences
> rather than replace them w/ a solid piece.

I was able to do that with some cutters but for others the fence ended up a
bit too thick for the cutter to cut full depth. I'm running 3/4" bore
cutters... bigger diameter ones would probably not be a problem but that's
as big as my shaper handles. 1/2 HP Jet on enclosed stand.

> Might consider if you have room the LD puppy in the corner for a similar
> setup if you envision a lot more work...

Funny you say that... I've been looking at shapers with the idea of getting
a bigger one and so I have two. That may be excessive for the volume of
shaping I do but if a deal comes along, and they eventually do, it will
probably happen. ;~) For example, I saw a Delta DJ-15 in excellent condition
for $250 negotiable on Craigs List the other day. That was a steal that I
should have grabbed and flipped. ;~)

John

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 2/23/2012 9:31 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> I've been using my shaper quite a bit recently and a lot of cutter
>> changes have been involved. Changing and adjusting the fence
>> configuration has been very time consuming. Has anyone built replacement
>> faces, that fit the factory cast iron, that have tracks for feather
>> boards, wheels, etc.? I'd be interested in hearing of, and seeing photos
>> of such self-build fences... particularly any that can be used as a
>> fixed fence or split fence via some kind of interface between the split
>> faces. My "thrown together" temporary fences work but burn time... DAGS
>> hasn't gotten me anywhere useful as the router table fences all seem to
>> take a different tact from what I'm considering.
>
> I simply make replacements as needed when/if the old ones get chewed up,
> but that doesn't happen often that get bad enough to need it.
>
> Setting fence depth precisely can be a pita--I deal with that generally by
> having a test cutoff of the particular profile previously saved that is
> used to at least get the initial positioning and height pretty close--I
> must have close to a hundred of these by now--altho only a relatively
> small number are used regularly. Most of them were for architectural
> mouldings back in the olden days when was doing the retrofits/restorations
> in VA...
>
> I have the feeder mounted on the table so it isn't an issue w/ the fence
> (altho sometimes have to remove it to freehand pattern-shape) and I use
> the supplied holes in the Delta fence w/ their holddowns if need them
> (altho w/ feeder they're superfluous and I rarely find the need for them
> hand-feeding).
>
> All in all, not very helpful, I'm sure other than perhaps the idea of
> keeping the patterns for rough setup.
>
> I'll note the biggest pita I have w/ the shaper fence on the HD
> Delta/Rockwell (and the LD has the same casting) is that the two faces
> aren't perfectly parallel--to get that you have to make the fence faces
> thick and then joint them in place to flatten them perfectly. If had a
> surface grinder could fix the castings themselves but I don't and haven't
> spent the $$ to have them done...
>
> Maybe a little more specifics would engender some thought
> processes/suggestions from others as well????

The cut-off technique is something I've been doing. But as you say that only
gets you so far...

The biggest issue is swapping the split fence for the one-piece and getting
everything re-jiggered and vice versa. For the recent projects it seemed I
spent more time swapping and adjusting the shaper fences and hold-downs than
I did shaping as I'm not doing big runs. It's more typical that I'll run a
dozen or less pieces through a set up. Yes I got faster over time but it
still takes time...

I too found the split fences were not co-planer... initially a source of
frustration until I realized what was going on. It was a bad assumption to
think they were co-planer! To solve that I jointed a piece of red oak and
put a strip of SPA 120 grit (from a roll) on it. I used that long sanding
block to joint the shaper fences when they were bolted up to the cast iron
(both the split and one piece).

I'd like a single fence that can be used as a one piece or split fence
reliably that also has tracks for feather boards and rollers. Perhaps
unrealistic but things like these make wonder if it is realistic:

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/ShopBuilt_Adjustable_Shaper_Fence.html

Fixtures for feather boards/wheels would need to be added.

>
> I wish Delta were still making their 1/2" cutters--most particularly the
> undercut window-sash. =A0I've found nobody else making them for the stub
> spindle to cut the full-length tenon; everybody seems to put up with
> using only the stub tenons. =A0I detest them for real window sashes;
> they're ok for cabinet doors, etc., but I think they're not up to the
> task for full-size windows. =A0Anybody w/ a source; I'm interested, I've
> sharpened the one I have about as much as it can stand.
>
> --

Would/Could you cut the full length tenons, separately, if you had a
cutter to do only that?

I'm not proficient at window or door jointery, so I'm not sure I
understand exactly what you are speaking of. I picked up a cache of
cutters, which includes what looks like some kind of tenon cutter.
It's big, with 3 cutters. I don't even know if this is a tenon
cutter, nor if the whole assembly is to be used as one unit, but each
cutter plate is a separate unit with 2 knives per plate. The plates
mount onto the smooth portion of a threaded shaft. This whole unit
(shaft & 3 plates) must weigh at least 1 pound, maybe more.

5 Pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/

Is this something you think you might could use?

Sonny

On 2/23/2012 9:31 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> I've been using my shaper quite a bit recently and a lot of cutter
> changes have been involved. Changing and adjusting the fence
> configuration has been very time consuming. Has anyone built replacement
> faces, that fit the factory cast iron, that have tracks for feather
> boards, wheels, etc.? I'd be interested in hearing of, and seeing photos
> of such self-build fences... particularly any that can be used as a
> fixed fence or split fence via some kind of interface between the split
> faces. My "thrown together" temporary fences work but burn time... DAGS
> hasn't gotten me anywhere useful as the router table fences all seem to
> take a different tact from what I'm considering.

I simply make replacements as needed when/if the old ones get chewed up,
but that doesn't happen often that get bad enough to need it.

Setting fence depth precisely can be a pita--I deal with that generally
by having a test cutoff of the particular profile previously saved that
is used to at least get the initial positioning and height pretty
close--I must have close to a hundred of these by now--altho only a
relatively small number are used regularly. Most of them were for
architectural mouldings back in the olden days when was doing the
retrofits/restorations in VA...

I have the feeder mounted on the table so it isn't an issue w/ the fence
(altho sometimes have to remove it to freehand pattern-shape) and I use
the supplied holes in the Delta fence w/ their holddowns if need them
(altho w/ feeder they're superfluous and I rarely find the need for them
hand-feeding).

All in all, not very helpful, I'm sure other than perhaps the idea of
keeping the patterns for rough setup.

I'll note the biggest pita I have w/ the shaper fence on the HD
Delta/Rockwell (and the LD has the same casting) is that the two faces
aren't perfectly parallel--to get that you have to make the fence faces
thick and then joint them in place to flatten them perfectly. If had a
surface grinder could fix the castings themselves but I don't and
haven't spent the $$ to have them done...

Maybe a little more specifics would engender some thought
processes/suggestions from others as well????

--

On 2/24/2012 11:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
...

> I too found the split fences were not co-planer... initially a source of
> frustration until I realized what was going on. It was a bad assumption
> to think they were co-planer! To solve that I jointed a piece of red oak
> and put a strip of SPA 120 grit (from a roll) on it. I used that long
> sanding block to joint the shaper fences when they were bolted up to the
> cast iron (both the split and one piece).

I just make sure the thickness is sufficient to ensure don't hit the
mounting screw heads and just joint the whole thing with the fences in
place...

>
> I'd like a single fence that can be used as a one piece or split fence
> reliably that also has tracks for feather boards and rollers. Perhaps
> unrealistic but things like these make wonder if it is realistic:
>
> http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/ShopBuilt_Adjustable_Shaper_Fence.html

Guess you could follow his lead--I don't seem to have the need, but to
each his own.

For solid when I do want it, I just tack a piece onto the existing
fences rather than replace them w/ a solid piece.

I also realize a lot of your frustration is probably relieved here by
having both the HD and LD shapers so I can leave one set up for
something and not have to teardown for every change. I also have the
portable shaper/router which can be used as well w/ the 1/2" spindle and
while it's not a shaper, having it means can also have a specific setup
there as well. I'd used it for the coping undercut w/ the stub spindle
for the full-length tenon on windows, for example and left it set up
that way while doing the rails/stiles on the others...

Might consider if you have room the LD puppy in the corner for a similar
setup if you envision a lot more work...

--

On 2/24/2012 1:26 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
...

>> For solid when I do want it, I just tack a piece onto the existing
>> fences rather than replace them w/ a solid piece.
>
> I was able to do that with some cutters but for others the fence ended
> up a bit too thick for the cutter to cut full depth. I'm running 3/4"
> bore cutters... bigger diameter ones would probably not be a problem but
> that's as big as my shaper handles. 1/2 HP Jet on enclosed stand.
...

Maybe make a separate solid fence assembly and leave the split as is so
could just swap the whole fence?

I've never looked to see if could find just the fence castings cheaply;
and am not sure if the (surely more common) Delta spacings are such they
bolts will fit the Jet or not--of course, it's nothing to drill/tap
another pair of mount holes if need be--I've done that for a homemade
bearing guide I use for pattern shaping on the HD (a 50+
Rockwell/Walker-Turner hybrid I found from the ODU (Old Dominion) shops'
rummage sale w/ 1/2"-3/4" spindles). The castings for the fence on it
are identical to the LD and HD through the 90s anyway until the "X"
series--I don't know about them.

I wish Delta were still making their 1/2" cutters--most particularly the
undercut window-sash. I've found nobody else making them for the stub
spindle to cut the full-length tenon; everybody seems to put up with
using only the stub tenons. I detest them for real window sashes;
they're ok for cabinet doors, etc., but I think they're not up to the
task for full-size windows. Anybody w/ a source; I'm interested, I've
sharpened the one I have about as much as it can stand.

--

On 2/24/2012 2:20 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
...

>> I've never looked to see if could find just the fence castings cheaply;
>
> I could probably cast some from MDF for the fixed fence. ;~)
>
> DAGS turns up various shaper fences, both new and old. I should probably
> just go ahead and make a good fixed fence that will mount with the
> factory threaded holes and mounting hardware. Time spent on that would
> be repaid pretty quickly in time savings.
...

Probably so...if you have it handy, post the spacing for your Jet and
I'll see if the Delta match up...at least you'd know whether the
castings would fit or not if happened across a deal.

--

On 2/24/2012 4:53 PM, Sonny wrote:
...

> Would/Could you cut the full length tenons, separately, if you had a
> cutter to do only that?
>
> I'm not proficient at window or door jointery, so I'm not sure I
> understand exactly what you are speaking of. I picked up a cache of
> cutters, which includes what looks like some kind of tenon cutter.
> It's big, with 3 cutters. I don't even know if this is a tenon
> cutter, nor if the whole assembly is to be used as one unit, but each
> cutter plate is a separate unit with 2 knives per plate. The plates
> mount onto the smooth portion of a threaded shaft. This whole unit
> (shaft& 3 plates) must weigh at least 1 pound, maybe more.
>
> 5 Pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/
>
> Is this something you think you might could use?

I've got a set similar and that's larger than even my HD shaper can
handle w/o bushing and since I have others, "thanks, but no thanks". :)
Really appreciate the thought, however.

What I'm speaking of is the matching male cutter that undercuts the sash
end tenon so it fits the female stile shaped edge. This avoids having
to trim the shaped edge by hand for a flush fit by mitering or butting.

I don't have a direct link to a profile of the cutter alone--you can see
them at the following link if you click on one of the models and look
towards the end in the accessories section. I chose the Model 43-370 as
being towards the top of the list.

Start here if you're interested enough... :)

<http://www.mikestools.com/Delta-Shaper-Owners-Manuals.aspx>

On p 18 upper lh corner is a male/female sash 42-081/080 that cut the
stub tenon; this is the only style I can find at present.

On p 15 are the old 1/2" bore 3-wing cutters--note the two sash cutters
there (you'll probably have to enlarge the page to read it) female
09-121 and male 09-128. Note particularly on the male the cutout at the
lower rh corner (inside top edge). That is so the stub spindle which
uses a countersunk flat-head screw to hold the cutter on will be below
the top edge of the cutting surface and thus the cutter can pass
entirely below the surface of the extended tenon as it cuts the matching
profile on the end of the stile below the tenon to match that of the
stile when brought together and the tenon extends full through (or as
long as one chooses to make it; one can use a housed tenon if one
chooses although generally a haunched open tenon is used, particularly
in older windows). It's that pair that I coven replacements for.

I see the stub spindle is listed on p 16 (43-345) but no picture given
to fully illustrate how it works. Hopefully the description is enough.

I talked to Lonnie Bird at some length while he was associated w/ CMT(?
I believe it was) before moving his affiliation to Amana about how to
cut the joint. He talked of getting them to make some router bits that
could do it but that came to an end before it happened. I've not
looked; wonder if he thought enough of the idea to pursue it w/ Amana.
Maybe I'll go look but this is longwinded enough already... :)

Anyway, still, if anybody can find any Delta new old stock of the 1/2"
cutters or has any (particularly those two) around in an unused
collection, I'm interested...or, of course, an alternative source.

I talked also to solidcarbide.com--they'll make a custom but the tooling
charge for only a couple was pretty steep so I didn't bite. Guess
that's the other thing; if there are others who would be interested
could pool order to bring the cost/set down to at least manageable,
perhaps. I've still the whole passel of windows for the barn
restoration to go is what is driving this apparent obsession... :)

--

On 2/24/2012 7:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
...

> I was in the shop for a while doing a glue up... I got looking things
> over and I think your idea of having a second fence makes the most
> sense. I can put a solid one together easily and I'll probably add
> tracks for feather boards and maybe a top track for wheels. While I'm at
> it, I'll make another solid fence that is tall enough to support sheet
> goods on edge and have a have a gap on the bottom. This one will be for
> some vertical cutters I have as well as for flush trimming edging.

Sounds like a plan... :)

> I came across these stub cutters
> http://www.toolstoday.com/nsearch.aspx?keywords=cope+cutter&x=11&y=15
> They say they are for router mandrels but the design may work on the
> Delta stub spindles. See
> http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5915-cope-cutter-for-cabinet-door-bits.aspx?variantids=9881,0
> for some more details of the design. They offer three different stub
> cutters and maybe one of those will work for you. If so, let me know and
> I'll see if I can rig up a stub cutter on my Jet shaper. ;~)

I don't know about the thought of trying to use the cope router cutters
on the shaper--as I mentioned in the sub-thread w/ Sonny I hadn't really
pursued this for a while and I find that indeed, apparently Lonnie Bird
did follow up and Amana is now making the cope cutter to go with the
sash set...

<http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5155-ogee-window-sash-rail-router-bits.aspx?variantids=6103,0>

Whether this profile matches their shaper window sash profile or not, I
don't know--if does, that would be _a_good_thing_ (tm). :)

I also in looking discovered that Freud has now also jumped into the
fray...seems like if one will do something, then they all will. I found
listings for the CMT orange as well; I had thought they were belly-up
(at least in US)?

--

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 2/24/2012 1:26 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
> ...
>
>>> For solid when I do want it, I just tack a piece onto the existing
>>> fences rather than replace them w/ a solid piece.
>>
>> I was able to do that with some cutters but for others the fence ended
>> up a bit too thick for the cutter to cut full depth. I'm running 3/4"
>> bore cutters... bigger diameter ones would probably not be a problem but
>> that's as big as my shaper handles. 1/2 HP Jet on enclosed stand.
> ...
>
> Maybe make a separate solid fence assembly and leave the split as is so
> could just swap the whole fence?
>
> I've never looked to see if could find just the fence castings cheaply;

I could probably cast some from MDF for the fixed fence. ;~)

DAGS turns up various shaper fences, both new and old. I should probably
just go ahead and make a good fixed fence that will mount with the factory
threaded holes and mounting hardware. Time spent on that would be repaid
pretty quickly in time savings.


> I wish Delta were still making their 1/2" cutters--most particularly the
> undercut window-sash. I've found nobody else making them for the stub
> spindle to cut the full-length tenon; everybody seems to put up with using
> only the stub tenons. I detest them for real window sashes; they're ok
> for cabinet doors, etc., but I think they're not up to the task for
> full-size windows. Anybody w/ a source; I'm interested, I've sharpened
> the one I have about as much as it can stand.

I agree that stubs are not appropriate for real windows. For the sash I've
made I made the tenons and coping myself rather than use the shaper cutters
sets I have... only a few so it wasn't a big deal.

John

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 2/24/2012 2:20 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
> ...
>
>>> I've never looked to see if could find just the fence castings cheaply;
>>
>> I could probably cast some from MDF for the fixed fence. ;~)
>>
>> DAGS turns up various shaper fences, both new and old. I should probably
>> just go ahead and make a good fixed fence that will mount with the
>> factory threaded holes and mounting hardware. Time spent on that would
>> be repaid pretty quickly in time savings.
> ...
>
> Probably so...if you have it handy, post the spacing for your Jet and I'll
> see if the Delta match up...at least you'd know whether the castings would
> fit or not if happened across a deal.

I was in the shop for a while doing a glue up... I got looking things over
and I think your idea of having a second fence makes the most sense. I can
put a solid one together easily and I'll probably add tracks for feather
boards and maybe a top track for wheels. While I'm at it, I'll make another
solid fence that is tall enough to support sheet goods on edge and have a
have a gap on the bottom. This one will be for some vertical cutters I have
as well as for flush trimming edging.

I came across these stub cutters
http://www.toolstoday.com/nsearch.aspx?keywords=cope+cutter&x=11&y=15 They
say they are for router mandrels but the design may work on the Delta stub
spindles. See
http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5915-cope-cutter-for-cabinet-door-bits.aspx?variantids=9881,0
for some more details of the design. They offer three different stub
cutters and maybe one of those will work for you. If so, let me know and
I'll see if I can rig up a stub cutter on my Jet shaper. ;~)

John