I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
well?
Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
to 30" or so.
I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
the old fashioned laminate tops.
Why not?
I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.
On 1/28/2011 7:15 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. I
>>>> have more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were
>>>> intended for other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old,
>>>> and do not exhibit your proposed symptoms. Kindly explain that
>>>> phenonenom.
>>>
>>> Are the sides firmly fastened to something that *cannot* move? If
>>> not and if you were to do so, then after a while either the panel
>>> would warp or split OR the fastenings would be bent/deformed/pulled
>>> out.
Not necessarily, as long as the piece is fabricated at EMC, installed
and kept "at the average atmospheric conditions to which it will be
exposed".
Now take that same piece, built in NJ, to AZ after a period of time and
all bets are off.
A very important proviso to wood movement which is often overlooked:
"In general, no significant dimensional changes will occur if wood is
fabricated or installed at a moisture content corresponding to the
average atmospheric conditions to which it will be exposed."
CITE: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_13.pdf
You see this all the time with wood floors, once acclimated to the
environment in which they will be installed (IOW, they reach EMC
(equilibrium moisture content)), movement becomes insignificant as a
practical matter after proper installation. Sure it moves, but not the
wild movement attributed to what you would see in the averages for that
type of wood in the tables.
Otherwise, on a wood floor that is 30 feet from side to side, it would
constantly buckle during expansion, and you would not be able to find
baseboard and shoe molding thick enough to hide the cracks when it shrunk.
Somewhere in the above reference there is a table of the average
moisture content "for interior use" in various areas of the the US.
What this boils down to as a practical matter for a woodworker ...
unless you just ignore wood movement totally during fabrication and do
not take prudent, but not extreme, measures to mitigate the effect of
some movement in your design; and providing you use wood that has
reached EMC and it is kept in the environment in which it will be used
(your home), the chances of having it break apart because of movement
are insignificant.
See second paragraph above ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
> That is the part of your theory that just does not bear up under the
> evidence around you. =A0If that were the case, the majority of the furnit=
ure
> around you that is over 40 years old would simply not exist today.
>
Did you ever get the point that so many people made here that there
are ways to build furniture so the wood movment won't break it? 95% of
professionally made solid wood furniture is built with techniques to
allow the expansion to occur without any problem. The other 5% fails.
Much like you fail to get the basic point a child could understand.
On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:14:11 -0800 (PST), mkr5000 wrote:
> I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
> glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
> well?
>
> Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
> to 30" or so.
>
> I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
> bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
> the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
> Why not?
>
> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> style.
There's no doubt wood movement can cause a lot of problems,
just look at the ruckus it stirred up in here.
basilisk
> Mike is not saying to ignore the dimensional instability of your project
> wood, but that all to often what is meant as a guide is taken as gospel
> ... IOW, the difference between an in-depth understanding of the issue,
> and mistaking opinion as knowledge.
>
NOT TALKING OPINION, JUST FACT. HOW ABOUT THE SLED WITH A PERFECTLY
FIT OAK RUNNER FOR THE TABLE SLOT. STARTS GETTING TOO TIGHT TO USE.
SANDED AWAY TO FIT, 3 OR 4 TIMES OVER A PERIOD OF A FEW WEEKS. SIX
MONTHS LATER IT IS SO SLOPPY IT IS UNUSABLE. I GUESS MAYBE THE CAST
IRON SLOT WAS EXPANDING AND CONTRACTING.
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/27/11 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
>>> dust by now.
>>
>> Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I
>> just send you a free metronome?
>>
>
> I'll take the beer..... metronome ends up getting turned off half way
> through the first verse anyway, because the lead vox has no drums in
> her monitor.
My kind of drummer!!! Just as long as me (lead guitar) and you can see each
other from time to time.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
> assembly techniques. =A0Someone posted a link to a Roy Underwood Side tab=
le:
>
> http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html
>
> and if you watched it, you'll see the top is 1" thick 32" wide flat
Yes but...
Mr. Mike said in his post #20 that he "glued, screwed and nailed" and
has never seen a problem. Mr. Roy in the first 4 minutes of the
referenced video shows that you need to account for wood movement. So
you can't just glue everything with no problem. So Mike is totally
wrong and ignorant to the fact that you MUST account for wood movement
and this "notion" has NOT "taken on a set of legs of its own." but
rather is a known fact that any intelligent woodworker accounts for in
his design, even back in the days that Mr. Roy is exploring. They very
concept of a breadboard end and the traditional attachment method
proves the point.
Well of course I would seal the surface well and use biscuits
liberally on the edges. As for the particle board, it wouldn't be seen
but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple from
underneath for added strength and stability. ?
I like the idea of using flooring, may look into that or at least try
a sample section.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote
> Did you ever get the point that so many people made here that there
> are ways to build furniture so the wood movment won't break it? 95% of
> professionally made solid wood furniture is built with techniques to
> allow the expansion to occur without any problem. The other 5% fails.
> Much like you fail to get the basic point a child could understand.
There is so much he does not understand that he does not understand what he
doesn't understand.
Right? ;-)
--
Jim in NC
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. I
>> have more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were
>> intended for other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old,
>> and do not exhibit your proposed symptoms.
>
> MEASURE THE WIDTH OF THAT GLUE-UP EVERY DAY FOR A YEAR AND TELL ME
> WHAT YOU SEE.
Come over and measure it, take pictures, or what ever you wish to do. You
can't seem to understand that your fears are not being exhibited.
>
>> And that has what to do with Central NY state? You - like many, quote
>> irrelevant distractions in attempt to pursuade others that you have
>> some unique knowledge.
> CALIFORNIA EVEN HUMIDITY AND TEMPERATURE ALL YEAR = MINIMUM
> DIMENSIONAL CHANGE. NY = LOTS OF CHANGE IN WINTER WHEN HEATER DRYS OUT
> HOUSE. LOTS OF CHANGE IN SUMMER WHEN HUMIDITY RUNS HIGH.
>
And your point?
>
>>>
>> Again - something besides theoretical rhetoric. I gave you a real
>> world experience. Counter that in like terms. Look at the furniture
>> in your house before you reply.
> OK, BUILD YOURSELF A KITCHEN WITH COPE AND STICK DOORS WITH SOLID WOOD
> PANELS. LEAVE ZERO CLEARANCE AND GLUE IN THE PANELS AT ALL SIDES.
> WRITE BACK IN A YEAR OR TWO.
Why would I want to do that? That is not what has been discussed, but you
keep resorting to extreem statement that have nothing to do with my original
statement. If you just want to argue foolishness, then go ahead, but I have
no interest in doing so.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Edward" (how about "Ed" -- or does that make you a peasant?)
Your reply just further proves my point.
"insufficient care for fully registering what has already
been said to you." ? ! (WTF?)
Are you friggin' serious?
You're like the kid in grade school we used to pick on -- you know,
the one just dying to use his "word of the day".
"Earth to Edward". --
You're sticking out like a sore thumb you pompous ______ .
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> . It's just pointless.
>>
> Actually, I think you do have a point. However, if you comb your hair
> just right no one will notice. ;^)
>
> Mike, you are right it is pointless to continue this subject. I hope I
> didn't offend. It is just fun sometimes to be a bit of an arshole and
> I'll admit I was\am.
>
> I agree it is time for all of us to return to making sawdust so we can
> learn some more about our craft.
>
> This was the first time in a long time I ever followed a subject that
> went more than 10 posts.
Good enough by me. Onward and upward.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 1/30/2011 2:01 PM, Morgans wrote:
> A few times a few years ago, I built my first set of raised panel
> kitchen cabinets. Red oak, kiln dried. I did not fully understand the
> need for a little space between door panels and the frames around the
> doors.
>
> A peninsula was built, and I made the whole thing look like doors and
> panels, but built it as 5 or 6 panels in the same multiple railed unit,
> around 9 feet long.
>
> The house was shut up over the summer, with no AC or heat on over a
> summer break. (student built house project) That whole panel had self
> destructed. I had to redo the whole thing, with new rails and stiles,
> and this time, cut an eight off of the size of each of the panels that
> had expanded and blown the whole assembly apart.
>
> OK, now that I have shown a personal experience with wood movement, does
> everyone believe that it is an important factor? Some will not, because
> they choose to only believe what they want.
LOL ... actually, first thing that came to mind is who in hell would
allow someone lacking in such basic woodworking knowledge to build a
birdcage, much less "raised panel" anythings in a kitchen and its peninsula?
Perhaps the comments in this thread of those who "... chose to only
believe what they want.." are just other examples of something else that
you also "... did not fully understand.".
I've yet to see anyone in this thread claim wood movement was not an
important factor/design consideration.
Maybe I missed a post, but I'd be interested in seeing who said that ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Edward Hennessey wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Edward Hennessey wrote:
>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> mkr5000 wrote:
>
>>>
>>> SNIP
>>>
>>> Mkr:
>>> Well, you have a strong position of why you're here. What about why
>>> we're here?
>
>
> SNIP
>>
>> Edward - please watch your attributes - I did not make the
>> statements you are attributing to me.
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> [email protected]
>>
>
> Mike:
>
> If there is a better way for me to remove any uncertainty, please
> let me know and I'll take measures. I did, as evidenced above,
> address the OP as Mkr. But amidst the length of the rest of
> the text, that could be overlooked.
>
> To reaffirm for the record, you were not implicated
> in this sidelight chat other than being a person who quoted
> maker, to whom I responded.
>
> Just because you both use the initial M in your names, I presume
> no genetic link.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Edward Hennessey
Edward - I am leaving the entire post intact so you can see what I am
referring to. If in doubt - go back to my previouds reply where I requested
you pay attention to attributes. The very top of your previous post clearly
indicates that I had stated something, to which you appended your comments.
Forget about how you want it to be interpreted - there are standards in the
world that you are posting in. You have to embrace those standards and it
does not matter how clear you thought you were being. I understand your
intent, but if you are going to swim in the pond, you have to wear the
approved swim trunks.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
dadiOH wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. I
>> have more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were
>> intended for other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old,
>> and do not exhibit your proposed symptoms. Kindly explain that
>> phenonenom.
>
> Are the sides firmly fastened to something that *cannot* move? If
> not and if you were to do so, then after a while either the panel
> would warp or split OR the fastenings would be bent/deformed/pulled
> out.
They have cleats glued and screwed to the back of them. They have not
split, warped, nor have they bent or deformed the screws.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
knuttle wrote:
>>
> If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
> years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
> is a bad idea.
Ok - to be more fair to knuttle's response...
As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.
Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
about.
A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.
I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.
I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
evidence in front of your eyes.
It does no good to suggest throwing a build up of oak boards on the garage
floor - or even a piece of plywood on the garage floor. Is that what you
are building? Is that where it will be used?
A lot of guys here like to think of themselves as "craftsmen" becuase they
do things a certain way - regardless of whether that way was even called
for. Oh well. The fact is that the real craftsmen (myself not included in
that term) have figured out when to apply the principles of wood movement,
and when not to worry about it. And... to what extent. There is an awful
lot of unwarranted alarmist theory prvelent here that is just not well
founded woodworking practice. At a point, after it's gone on long enough...
it takes on a life of it's own. That though, does not make it accurate.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jim Weisgram wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity and
>> the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very
>> large. The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to
>> the particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.
>
> I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is
> with the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not
> been my experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty
> of things that have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the
> years, that have held together just well. No extreem movement over
> the seasons, no splitting, no angry reactions. To listen to a lot of
> what's posted here one has to wonder just how any piece of furniture
> has survived over the years. Methinks this notion of wood movement
> has taken on a set of legs of its own.
Got a table - any table - with a solid top? Turn it over and see how the
top is attached to the aprons and ask yourself why it is done that way.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
mkr5000 <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Edward" (how about "Ed" -- or does that make you a peasant?)
I don't get it. Why would you want to change his preferred name?I have
friends named David, some of whom go by David, and some by Dave. Do
you think they should all go by Dave? And what about Elizabeth? Is it
inappropriate or pompous in your world for her to go by Elizabeth? Do
you have an approved shortening, or are Liz, Beth, and Betty all okay
with you?
>
>Your reply just further proves my point.
>
>"insufficient care for fully registering what has already
>been said to you." ? ! (WTF?)
Seems pretty clear to me. Is that really what you call "pompous
English"? LOL
>Are you friggin' serious?
>
>You're like the kid in grade school we used to pick on -- you know,
>the one just dying to use his "word of the day".
Yeah, I remember guys like that. But after getting out of grade
school, use of precise language no longer seemed so intimidating
>"Earth to Edward". --
>
>You're sticking out like a sore thumb you pompous ______ .
Oh, no! You're not calling him a girl again are you? I don't think he
could take it.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
mkr5000 wrote:
> I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
> glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
> well?
>
> Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
> to 30" or so.
>
> I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
> bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
> the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
> Why not?
>
> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> style.
I can think of a couple of things made that way.
The first is (was, you don;t see them anymore) darkroom sinks. They were
normally made of cypress.
The second is wooden boats.
As long as the sinks were used frequently and the wood stayed wet, the water
stayed where it was supposed to be. Ditto boats; but if the boat was taken
out of the water for any period of time it would leak like a sieve. Same
thing if you were on one tack for a while and then changed tacks so the boat
laid on the other side.
Both worked well *because* of wood movement...swelling when damp.
So go ahead and make your counter top, just wet it down 4-6 times a day.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 1/27/2011 2:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> knuttle wrote:
>
>>>
>> If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
>> years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
>> is a bad idea.
>
> Ok - to be more fair to knuttle's response...
>
> As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
> topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
> here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
> movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
> joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.
>
> Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
> extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
> quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
> at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
> will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
> pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
> about.
>
> A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
> not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
> experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
> 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
> they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
> state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.
>
> I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
> recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
> 100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.
>
> I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
> what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
> technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
> about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
> evidence in front of your eyes.
>
>
A case in point: I made a cutting board that's 19 inches wide from 1" x
3/4" maple strips. I butt-jointed (glued with Titebond type I) maple
strips on each end, lengthwise against the endgrain, finished it with
mineral oil (which gets lightly sanded and replenished about once very
year or so). I did it more or less as an experiment - what's the worst
that could happen - I'd have to through out an easily replaceable cuting
board? No big deal.
That cutting board has been in daily use for over eight years, in a home
that uses forced-air heat in winter (which dries the air) and a swamp
cooler in summer (makes air very humid). You'd think that's about the
worst possible scenario for wood movement. To hear some people, those
end finish strips should have separated from the endgrain years ago.
But they haven't. Those butt jointed ends are still as tight as the
day I first made the board.
On 1/27/2011 6:13 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/27/11 4:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> I hope you're not one of those lead guys who thinks time is a
>>> magazine. :-)
>>
>> It isn't??????? Holy shit! But - I'm an open minded player. Speak to me
>> brother... Actually no - I'm one of those lead players who really
>> syncs up
>> with the drummer. Some very large percentage of my dynamics are derived
>> there.
>>
>
> Maybe we'll get to jam together one day. That would be cool.
>
>
>>>
>>> What do you throw a drowning lead player?
>>> His amp.
>>
>> Ohhhhhhh..... you never should have thrown that one out there. But, I'm
>> going to resist. Shows how nice a guy I really am, don't it? I'm
>> biting my
>> tongue, but I'm going to be a nice guy. After all - my mom told me
>> never to
>> make fun of the handicapped...
>> xis
>>
>
> I have literally heard them all. I'm on the committee.
>
> Did you hear about the band who locked their keys in the van?
> It took them 2 hours to get the bass player out.
>
>
An explorer was traveling through deepest, darkest Africa with a native
guide. Off in the distance, he hears drums pounding. The explorer was
visibly worried, so his guide told him, Not to worry. When drums stop,
then worry." Gradually the drums got louder, then all of a sudden, they
stopped. He asked his guide what would happen now. The guide shuddered,
"bass solo".
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. I
> have more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were
> intended for other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old,
> and do not exhibit your proposed symptoms. Kindly explain that
> phenonenom.
Are the sides firmly fastened to something that *cannot* move? If not and
if you were to do so, then after a while either the panel would warp or
split OR the fastenings would be bent/deformed/pulled out.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. I
>>> have more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were
>>> intended for other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old,
>>> and do not exhibit your proposed symptoms. Kindly explain that
>>> phenonenom.
>>
>> Are the sides firmly fastened to something that *cannot* move? If
>> not and if you were to do so, then after a while either the panel
>> would warp or split OR the fastenings would be bent/deformed/pulled
>> out.
>
> They have cleats glued and screwed to the back of them. They have not
> split, warped, nor have they bent or deformed the screws.
How about the screw HOLES?
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 1/29/2011 8:57 AM, dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>> On 1/27/2011 2:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> ...
>
>>> A case in point: I made a cutting board that's 19 inches wide from 1"
>>> x 3/4" maple strips. I butt-jointed (glued with Titebond type I)
>>> maple strips on each end, lengthwise against the endgrain, ...
> ...
>>> That cutting board has been in daily use for over eight years, in a
>>> home that uses forced-air heat in winter (which dries the air) and a
>>> swamp cooler in summer (makes air very humid). You'd think that's
>>> about the worst possible scenario for wood movement. To hear some
>>> people, those end finish strips should have separated from the
>>> endgrain years ago. But they haven't. Those butt jointed ends are
>>> still as tight as the day I first made the board.
>>
>> One of the benefits of Titebond and other glues based on similar
>> chemistry is that they creep. This allows you to get away with poor
>> design.
>
> And 8 years w/ occasional maintenance isn't all that long a time, yet...
>
>
> They _will_ fail, eventually, and before the long-grain.
There is a little separation in one of the long-grain joints; there is
none on the butted end grain joints.
A lot of what is being said depends on the dimensional stability of the
particular wood being used. Some woods expand much more in one
direction than another. Other woods expand about equally in both
directions. A glued joint in a project made from mesquite, for example,
will do much better than the same joint made of cedar.
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
>
>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
>> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>>
>
> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that
> this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood
> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning of the
> thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood movement was
> a mere myth.
Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
"I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is with
the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not been my
experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty of things that
have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that have held
together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons, no splitting, no
angry reactions. To listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder
just how any piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own."
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/31/11 7:08 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>
>>>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
>>>> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that
>>> this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood
>>> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
>>> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning of the
>>> thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood movement was
>>> a mere myth.
>>
>> Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
>>
>> "I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it
>> is with the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has
>> not been my experience. At least - not to this level. I've got
>> plenty of things that have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on
>> over the years, that have held together just well. No extreem
>> movement over the seasons, no splitting, no angry reactions. To
>> listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder just how any
>> piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own."
>
> You need a basic, grade school level, course in reading comprehension
> if you actually think in the paragraph you quoted he's saying in any
> way that wood movement is a myth.
I comprehend the written word just fine. And to be fair, I *did* find a
post (not the one to which I was replying) where he actually said,
"Certainly wood moves"; however, his later and flowery, "Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own." implies that
movement is a radical idea.
I'm glad he acknowledges that wood moves. What I - and others - object to
is his insinuations (see various copied posts of his below) that one can
glue up a solid wood panel and attach it to something that confines that
movement willy-nilly; ie, in a manner that does not allow for the movement.
--
dadiOH
________________________________
QUOTES FROM MARLOW POSTS
I am not the original poster. I believe the consensus of 1000's of years is
that wood has successfully been joined without the catastrophic predictions
put forward. To quote one of the regulars here - look underneath some of
your furniture and ask yourself how in the hell did that piece not rip
itself apart. According to the guys on the newsgroup, this thing should
have exploded by now.
(dadiOH comment: I was the one telling him to look underneath his furniture.
I was hoping he'd notice that solid glued up table tops and the like are
attached to the aprons with clips or cleats that allow the top to move with
seasonal expansion/contraction. Apparently, he didn't.
________________
Ok - to be more fair to knuttle's response...
As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.
Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
about.
A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.
(dadiOH comment: Why did he attach cleats? To try to keep the doors flat
maybe? Dollars to doughnuts that if he were to remove the cleats he would
find that the screw holes in either or each of the cleats and doors have
elongated screw holes, made that way by the panel's expansion/contraction.)
I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.
I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
what their furniture is built like.
(dadiOH comment: yes, *PLEASE* do.
Don't just jump into some often quoted
technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
evidence in front of your eyes.
It does no good to suggest throwing a build up of oak boards on the garage
floor - or even a piece of plywood on the garage floor. Is that what you
are building? Is that where it will be used?
A lot of guys here like to think of themselves as "craftsmen" becuase they
do things a certain way - regardless of whether that way was even called
for. Oh well. The fact is that the real craftsmen (myself not included in
that term) have figured out when to apply the principles of wood movement,
and when not to worry about it. And... to what extent. There is an awful
lot of unwarranted alarmist theory prvelent here that is just not well
founded woodworking practice. At a point, after it's gone on long enough...
it takes on a life of it's own. That though, does not make it accurate.
___________________
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> Those butt jointed ends are still as tight as the
>> day I first made the board.- Hide quoted text -
>>
> 1. Daily use. Let it dry out for a few months, then do some more daily
> use. Then dry again for a few months. Three or four cycles and it's
> done.
>
But how does that resolve with the 80 - 120 year old furniture found in
homes that has not deteriorated as you suggest it should?
(dadiOH comment: it lasted because it was put together in a manner allowing
for wood movement.)
My point remains
that the whole notion of wood movement has grown legs of its own. Look
around you and try to resolve the theory you are holding on to with the
furniture you can see. It will point to some misunderstandings or some over
simplifications in how you are looking at this matter.
> 2. Yes, cutting boards are glued strips of face-to-face joinst so you
> you have edge grain. The expansion across this dimension fo the stock
> is far less than the expansion across the face.
And how about pieces that are not glued face to face and have survived all
of these decades? It's always worth testing the theory against the
evidence.
> 4. 19" across the edge grain which has less expansion is likey only to
> account for little more than a 1/16" expansion. It will take longer to
> break the glue bond but it will eventually fatigue if you cycle the
> moisture content a few times.
That is the part of your theory that just does not bear up under the
evidence around you. If that were the case, the majority of the furniture
around you that is over 40 years old would simply not exist today.
(dadiOH comment: That is correct...unless it were put together to allow for
wood movement)
____________________
Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>
>>>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
>>>> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that
>>> this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood
>>> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
>>> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning of the
>>> thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood movement was
>>> a mere myth.
>>
>> Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
>
> Go ahead and read it again. Take note of such literary techniques as
> statements like "At least - not to this level", and Methinks this
> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.". Don't
> forget to look at post that this was in response to, in order
> to maintain context.
OK, here's the whole thing...
"Jim Weisgram wrote:
>
> Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity and
> the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very large.
> The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to the
> particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.
I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is with
the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not been my
experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty of things that
have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that have held
together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons, no splitting, no
angry reactions. To listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder
just how any piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.
_______________
> It's convenient to snip parts of a post, but
> context is everything. While you are at it - don't forget to include
> those parts where I very clearly stated that I do not dispute the
> fact that wood moves. But, that would be inconvenient, wouldn't it?
Uh, I don't seem to see that part. Where is it? The "At least - not to
this level" part?
________________
> As is common in communications, a word or a phrase can be taken more
> than one way by the person hearing or reading the expressions of
> another. At that point, it is understandable. At the point where
> that confusion is clarified by such direct statements as "I do not
> deny that wood moves" (or something very close to that), any further
> insistence on the part of the reader/hearer that the speaker was
> saying something else, now becomes simply that - an insistence on the
> part of the hearer to either hear what he chooses, or to simply
> misrepresent the words of the speaker.
If I saw them I would not "misrepresent" them.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> Plenty of kitchens have butcher block counter tops made out of real
>> maple. Movement doesn't always mean cupping, for example, quarter
>> sawn tends to not cup, or move much across the grain.
>>
>
> Yes but this yahoo wants to build it not as butcher block but as flat
> panels.
Other than a lot of maintenance, I don't see any reason he can't as long as
he attaches it to the cabinet base in a manner that let's it expand and
contract.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/31/11 12:07 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/31/11 7:08 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not
>>>>>> see people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied
>>>>> that this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood
>>>>> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
>>>>> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning
>>>>> of the thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood
>>>>> movement was a mere myth.
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
>>>>
>>>> "I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it
>>>> is with the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has
>>>> not been my experience. At least - not to this level. I've got
>>>> plenty of things that have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on
>>>> over the years, that have held together just well. No extreem
>>>> movement over the seasons, no splitting, no angry reactions. To
>>>> listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder just how
>>>> any piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
>>>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own."
>>>
>>> You need a basic, grade school level, course in reading
>>> comprehension if you actually think in the paragraph you quoted
>>> he's saying in any way that wood movement is a myth.
>>
>> I comprehend the written word just fine. And to be fair, I *did*
>> find a post (not the one to which I was replying) where he actually
>> said, "Certainly wood moves"; however, his later and flowery,
>> "Methinks this notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of
>> its own." implies that movement is a radical idea.
>>
>> I'm glad he acknowledges that wood moves. What I - and others -
>> object to is his insinuations (see various copied posts of his
>> below) that one can glue up a solid wood panel and attach it to
>> something that confines that movement willy-nilly; ie, in a manner
>> that does not allow for the movement.
>
> I don't buy it. I've been following the thread and you essentially
> have a guy who says, "there is wood movement, but many people take it
> way too seriously" and another camp that says, "you think wood
> movement is a myth."
>
> The latter camp now is trying to color the former a fool by putting
> words in his mouth.
*HIS* words, no one else's. As per the lengthy posts I quoted. And I don't
think him a fool, I just think some of his posts can give the wrong idea to
anyone without experience.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> Other than a lot of maintenance, I don't see any reason he can't as
>> long as he attaches it to the cabinet base in a manner that let's it
>> expand and contract.
>
> Yeah it "might" work out OK but even with proper dynamic attachment
> the possibility of a big problem is still greater than 50% IMNSHO.
> Have you seen many flat panel counter tops? Probably a reason you
> haven't. I would not take this job on contract. The customer is always
> right but the customer will also want me to fix the problem once it
> starts happening or simply blame me.
NP, he wants to do it himself, in which case, look at the bright side - you
have an opportunity to get in on the ground floor to fix it :)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Mike Marlow wrote:
> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>> assembly techniques. Someone posted a link to a Roy Underwood Side
>>> table:
>>>
>>> http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html
>>>
>>> and if you watched it, you'll see the top is 1" thick 32" wide flat
>>
>> Yes but...
>>
>> Mr. Mike said in his post #20 that he "glued, screwed and nailed" and
>> has never seen a problem.
>
> If I ever said that, I would immediately appologize for having
> misspoken, but you would have to show me those words, because I could
> never say I have never had problems with wood moving.
See below
>> Mr. Roy in the first 4 minutes of the
>> referenced video shows that you need to account for wood movement. So
>> you can't just glue everything with no problem. So Mike is totally
>> wrong and ignorant to the fact that you MUST account for wood
>> movement
>
> I'm sorry, but you really did not read a thing I wrote correctly. No
> wonder you are so worked up by this, but the error in reading what I
> wrote lies within your understanding of my words.
Here are a couple of things you wrote in separate posts...
"I've got plenty of things that
have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that have held
together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons, no splitting, no
angry reactions."
"I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential."
Glue and screws and/or nails are mentioned in both as are lack of problems.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>
>>
>> Here are a couple of things you wrote in separate posts...
>>
>> "I've got plenty of things that
>> have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that
>> have held together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons,
>> no splitting, no angry reactions."
>>
>> "I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
>> 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
>> they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of
>> Central NY state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered
>> consequential."
>> Glue and screws and/or nails are mentioned in both as are lack of
>> problems.
>
> Very good - you can paste my comments into a post. But - you failed
> the test because simply posting those words does not indicate any
> statement from me that denies the movement of wood.
That wasn't what you asked. See below.
In a post form Sonoma (you snipped it and your reply)...
>> Mr. Mike said in his post #20 that he "glued, screwed and nailed" and
>> has never seen a problem.
>
> If I ever said that, I would immediately appologize for having
> misspoken, but you would have to show me those words, because I could
> never say I have never had problems with wood moving
You asked to be shown where you said what he quoted. I showed you. No
apology though, just snipping and equivocation.
_______________________
> I'm sorry that
> you and Sonoma seem to suffer from an inability to separate what you
> want someone to have said, from what they really said,
Actually, you seem to have an inability to comprehend what you really said.
Even when it is shown to you
_______________________
> I've never had any problem with either of you up to this point, and I
> don't really care to have a problem with either of you in the future,
> but I'm tiring of this silliness. I'm going to bow out of responding
> to any more of this. It's just pointless.
It surely is.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> . It's just pointless.
>>
> Actually, I think you do have a point. However, if you comb your hair
> just right no one will notice. ;^)
>
> Mike, you are right it is pointless to continue this subject. I hope I
> didn't offend. It is just fun sometimes to be a bit of an arshole and
> I'll admit I was\am.
>
> I agree it is time for all of us to return to making sawdust so we can
> learn some more about our craft.
>
> This was the first time in a long time I ever followed a subject that
> went more than 10 posts.
Better that we both had stopped at 10 but hope springs eternal :)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
dadiOH wrote:
>
> Here are a couple of things you wrote in separate posts...
>
> "I've got plenty of things that
> have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that
> have held together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons,
> no splitting, no angry reactions."
>
> "I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
> 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
> they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of
> Central NY state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered
> consequential."
> Glue and screws and/or nails are mentioned in both as are lack of
> problems.
Very good - you can paste my comments into a post. But - you failed the
test because simply posting those words does not indicate any statement from
me that denies the movement of wood. I'm sorry that you and Sonoma seem to
suffer from an inability to separate what you want someone to have said,
from what they really said, but as long as you remain stuck in that, there
is no hope for this discussion. Like Sonoma, you are proving yourself to be
a master of selectively cutting text in the vain attempt to misrepresent my
words, but you're busted - all you are doing is proving your own inability
to understand in context.
I've never had any problem with either of you up to this point, and I don't
really care to have a problem with either of you in the future, but I'm
tiring of this silliness. I'm going to bow out of responding to any more of
this. It's just pointless.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 1/27/2011 6:56 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> Mike is not saying to ignore the dimensional instability of your project
>> wood, but that all to often what is meant as a guide is taken as gospel
>> ... IOW, the difference between an in-depth understanding of the issue,
>> and mistaking opinion as knowledge.
>>
> NOT TALKING OPINION, JUST FACT. HOW ABOUT THE SLED WITH A PERFECTLY
> FIT OAK RUNNER FOR THE TABLE SLOT. STARTS GETTING TOO TIGHT TO USE.
> SANDED AWAY TO FIT, 3 OR 4 TIMES OVER A PERIOD OF A FEW WEEKS. SIX
> MONTHS LATER IT IS SO SLOPPY IT IS UNUSABLE. I GUESS MAYBE THE CAST
> IRON SLOT WAS EXPANDING AND CONTRACTING.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_13.pdf
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
=A0Methinks this
> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.
>
Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
the problems associated with it.
The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm
The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
from the feds
Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_04.pdf
Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.
Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
from the table top.
Morgans wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> OK, BUILD YOURSELF A KITCHEN WITH COPE AND STICK DOORS WITH SOLID
>> WOOD PANELS. LEAVE ZERO CLEARANCE AND GLUE IN THE PANELS AT ALL
>> SIDES. WRITE BACK IN A YEAR OR TWO.
>
> A few times a few years ago, I built my first set of raised panel
> kitchen cabinets. Red oak, kiln dried. I did not fully understand
> the need for a little space between door panels and the frames around
> the doors.
> A peninsula was built, and I made the whole thing look like doors and
> panels, but built it as 5 or 6 panels in the same multiple railed
> unit, around 9 feet long.
>
> The house was shut up over the summer, with no AC or heat on over a
> summer break. (student built house project) That whole panel had
> self destructed. I had to redo the whole thing, with new rails and
> stiles, and this time, cut an eight off of the size of each of the
> panels that had expanded and blown the whole assembly apart.
>
> OK, now that I have shown a personal experience with wood movement,
> does everyone believe that it is an important factor? Some will not,
> because they choose to only believe what they want.
You do understand that it has never been contended within this thread, that
wood does not move, nor that it is not a consideration in this type of
construction - don't you?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Jim Weisgram wrote:
>
> Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity and
> the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very large.
> The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to the
> particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.
I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is with
the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not been my
experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty of things that
have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that have held
together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons, no splitting, no
angry reactions. To listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder
just how any piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:23:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Edward Hennessey wrote:
>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> mkr5000 wrote:
>>>>> EDWARD --
>>>>>
>>>>> Get over yourself.
>
>>> SNIP
>>>
>>> Mkr:
>
> See the line above? He got the attribution right.
>
>
>>> Well, you have a strong position of why you're here. What about
>>> why
>>> we're here?
>>>
>>> Is that any element of your concern?
> --snip--
>>> Good luck with your approach.
>>>
>>> Edward Hennessey
>
> Ed, just plonk that mkr5000 troll and forget him. Life's too short
> to
> suffer fools.
>
>
Larry:
Thanks. I don't see the OP unless someone quotes him.
If his contribution to knowledge lies in cutting words out of
the dictionary or another mouth because he doesn't
know them or use them, that's all I need to hear.
But there's a streak of that on the Internet and streets.
Employ a word it may take sentences to define and a
lunkhead gets "dissed". When someone expects you to
summarize a longer exposition or gives a cracked opinion while
noting tl;dr ("too long; didn't read") it is either supposed you
are obliged to explain or value what their laziness couldn't
surmount. Nah. This isn't a world based on the democratic
principle that someone's ignorance equals someone else's knowledge.
Wait until the OP signs a contract
his lawyer ineptly interprets. Sure, he can blame the attorney.
But he can also thank himself for his aversion to taking any
opportunity he can to expand his horizons.
Here are a couple of things you may find amusing:
http://www.neatorama.com/2011/01/29/40-train-robbers-vs-1-gurkha/
If you ever want to uncork a fountain of praise, talk to a British
officer from
a Gurkha regiment.
http://gawker.com/5745560/happy-new-year-text-message-accidentally-detonates-suicide-bomber
This is the first entrant in the 2011 wireless Darwin-Karma awards.
It may have already have blown the field away.
Did I forget to say "Happy New Year" in my annual call?
Regards,
Ed
ineptly review a contract
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:23:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Edward Hennessey wrote:
>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> mkr5000 wrote:
>>>>> EDWARD --
>>>>>
>>>>> Get over yourself.
>
>>> SNIP
>>>
>>> Mkr:
>
> See the line above? He got the attribution right.
Nope - see the top line. Where it says ">> Edward Hennessey wrote:
>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
That is an attribute, not anything he uses as a salutation. What he emplyed
was a salutation.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:23:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Edward Hennessey wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> mkr5000 wrote:
>>>> EDWARD --
>>>>
>>>> Get over yourself.
>> SNIP
>>
>> Mkr:
See the line above? He got the attribution right.
>> Well, you have a strong position of why you're here. What about why
>> we're here?
>>
>> Is that any element of your concern?
--snip--
>> Good luck with your approach.
>>
>> Edward Hennessey
Ed, just plonk that mkr5000 troll and forget him. Life's too short to
suffer fools.
>Edward - please watch your attributes - I did not make the statements you
>are attributing to me.
(see above, Mike)
--
Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come
alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs
is people who have come alive. -- Howard Thurman
dadiOH wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have.
>>>> I have more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were
>>>> intended for other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old,
>>>> and do not exhibit your proposed symptoms. Kindly explain that
>>>> phenonenom.
>>>
>>> Are the sides firmly fastened to something that *cannot* move? If
>>> not and if you were to do so, then after a while either the panel
>>> would warp or split OR the fastenings would be bent/deformed/pulled
>>> out.
>>
>> They have cleats glued and screwed to the back of them. They have
>> not split, warped, nor have they bent or deformed the screws.
>
> How about the screw HOLES?
Damed if I know - they are cleverly concealed underneath the cleats, and
even more cleverly filled with the screw shank. I don't understand what you
are trying to get at here. The panels exist. They have not suffered the
fate you say they will. I have cupboard doors that are 25 years old that
have survived just fine, assembled in the same manner. You seem to want to
ensure me that although they have not exploded around the screws, that they
assuredly will. Maybe I'm missing your point, and it's not like that has
never happened to me before, but it seems to me that you are reaching, in
the face of evidence that contradicts your assertion.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Morgans wrote:
> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>
The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that this was
the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood movement has been
clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's easy to loose track, but
take a look back from the beginning of the thread and you'll see that no one
ever stated that wood movement was a mere myth.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Robatoy wrote:
>
> There seems to be a bit of 'situational reading' going on in here and
> other news groups, Mike.
> Personally, I only tend to hold a writer to a high standard of messing
> with semantics if he, himself, tends to do that to others.
> Seeing that I can't say that about you, the qualifier "At least - not
> to this level" should have been good enough for anybody.
> But nooooooooooooooo... there's always those who will make mountains
> out of mole hills. I think they do that either out of carelessness, or
> to compensate for inadequate penis size.
I appreciate that Robatoy. So by the way - what's wrong with a penis that
just can't get past 9"? Ya know - age does take its toll...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Jan 31, 1:44=A0pm, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 1/31/11 12:07 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> >> -MIKE- wrote:
> >>> On 1/31/11 7:08 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> >>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
> >>>>> Morgans wrote:
>
> >>>>>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not
> >>>>>> see people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>
> >>>>> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied
> >>>>> that this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. =A0Woo=
d
> >>>>> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
> >>>>> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning
> >>>>> of the thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood
> >>>>> movement was a mere myth.
>
> >>>> Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
>
> >>>> "I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it
> >>>> is with the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has
> >>>> not been my experience. =A0At least - not to this level. =A0I've got
> >>>> plenty of things that have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on
> >>>> over the years, that have held together just well. =A0No extreem
> >>>> movement over the seasons, no splitting, no angry reactions. =A0To
> >>>> listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder just how
> >>>> any piece of furniture has survived over the years. =A0Methinks this
> >>>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own."
>
> >>> You need a basic, grade school level, course in reading
> >>> comprehension if you actually think in the paragraph you quoted
> >>> he's saying in any way that wood movement is a myth.
>
> >> I comprehend the written word just fine. =A0And to be fair, I *did*
> >> find a post (not the one to which I was replying) where he actually
> >> said, "Certainly wood moves"; however, his later and =A0flowery,
> >> "Methinks this notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of
> >> its own." implies that movement is a radical idea.
>
> >> I'm glad he acknowledges that wood moves. =A0What I - and others -
> >> object to is his insinuations (see various copied posts of his
> >> below) that one can glue up a solid wood panel and attach it to
> >> something that confines that movement willy-nilly; ie, in a manner
> >> that does not allow for the movement.
>
> > I don't buy it. =A0I've been following the thread and you essentially
> > have a guy who says, "there is wood movement, but many people take it
> > way too seriously" and another camp that says, "you think wood
> > movement is a myth."
>
> > The latter camp now is trying to color the former a fool by putting
> > words in his mouth.
>
> *HIS* words, no one else's. =A0As per the lengthy posts I quoted. =A0And =
I don't
> think him a fool, I just think some of his posts can give the wrong idea =
to
> anyone without experience.
>
> --
>
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
> ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
> LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
> Get it athttp://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Yet, when I take some of the words used to describe wood movement:
"you will come
to find that mechanical fastners are not very well matched against
the
hydraulic pressures of mother nature", I am left to believe that you
cannot screw anything together, made out of wood, as mother nature
will rip it apart.
Mike's position was one which pointed out that wood movement wasn't
anything that dramatic, although the stuff does move.
My opinion was that Mike was trying to temper Sonotube's "sky is
falling" representation of the wood movement. I also don't believe
that a simple, likely moist, sneeze will pop loose a flat, wooden
board and have it slap me upside the head. (accompanied by a
cartoonish "Boooinngggg!!!")
BEWARE OF HYDRAULICS!!
*smirk*
On Jan 26, 2:11=A0pm, mkr5000 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well of course I would seal the surface well and use biscuits
> liberally on the edges. As for the particle board, it wouldn't be seen
> but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
> like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple from
> underneath for added strength and stability. =A0?
>
> I like the idea of using flooring, may look into that or at least try
> a sample section.
I guess you won't listen to the many reasonable reasons why this isn't
done. You did ask "Why not?" and it was clearly explained. Good luck.
On Jan 27, 4:15=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
> > I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
> > dust by now.
>
> Dude - I owe you a beer. =A0Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I jus=
t
> send you a free metronome?
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
Oooooooooooo
EDWARD --
Get over yourself.
I love newsgroups for hands on feedback from folks -- that's why I'm
here.
The stuff you can't get in a book.
I like to be thorough -- so what? Every project I've pursued has
ultimately been 100% and often BETTER than pro. I've done my share of
woodworking, have a complete
metalworking shop complete with CNC -- blah blah blah.
I've never built a countertop other than laminate and I've done
several that way -- again I'M HERE for "personal experiences" on
materials I haven't used for this application.
Don't be a girl.
And stop already with your pompous English.
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> Go ahead and read it again. Take note of such literary techniques as
>> statements like "At least - not to this level", and Methinks this
>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.".
>
> Wow, you should join the circus. Anyone who can backpeddle like that
> should be a on a bike in a clown suit going backwards in circles which
> is pretty close to what we have seen here.
Backpeddle? Did you even bother to read any of the posts that were part of
this thread, beyond what you wanted to see in them? You are becoming
tiresome.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> You miss my point. I was speaking to the idea expressed above my
>> comment, about the common forces of wood. And... yes I do know how
>> these items are attached. Look at all of the furniture in your house
>> and see how much of that is attached solidly, even in cross grain
>> situations. Yes - I do mean solid wood.
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> [email protected] Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Nobody misses your point. We should just realize by now you are
> hopeless in your denial.
You have no clue at all.
>
> A 30" wide piece of wood is going to vary by more than 1/4" in width
> over the span of a year in any environment with changing weather.
Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. I have
more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were intended for
other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old, and do not exhibit
your proposed symptoms. Kindly explain that phenonenom. In fact - your
statement above is only true in a context, but in generality... untrue.
> Maybe somewhere in mid-California you can be consistent enough this
> won't happen.
And that has what to do with Central NY state? You - like many, quote
irrelevant distractions in attempt to pursuade others that you have some
unique knowledge.
> When that wood changes size, it will break things if it
> can't find some way to accommodate that expansion or contraction.
Again - something besides theoretical rhetoric. I gave you a real world
experience. Counter that in like terms. Look at the furniture in your
house before you reply.
I
> have seen it as have millions of intelligent woodworkers over the
> centuries.
I am not sure you have understood the conditions under which they speak.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
mkr5000 <[email protected]> wrote:
>Elizabeth and David are OK. So are Michael and Thomas.
>
>Edward isn't.
>
>
>Think about it.
>
>
>
>
>(Unless you're a Prince and I'm sure he thinks he's one).
>The guy's a DORK.
LOL! You might want to get on Wikipedia and look up the name of Prince
Edward's mother.
And gee, wasn't there a rather famous king named David?
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Those butt jointed ends are still as tight as the
> day I first made the board.- Hide quoted text -
>
1. Daily use. Let it dry out for a few months, then do some more daily
use. Then dry again for a few months. Three or four cycles and it's
done.
2. Yes, cutting boards are glued strips of face-to-face joinst so you
you have edge grain. The expansion across this dimension fo the stock
is far less than the expansion across the face.
3. Read the authoritive papers referenced earlier and you will also
see that the expansion factor is not a linear component. for some
physical reason, beyond my ability to fully comprehend or explain,
they show that an 8" wide board has a greater expansion factor
(percentage) than a 4" board. So 10 1" boards will expand less than 1
10" board.
4. 19" across the edge grain which has less expansion is likey only to
account for little more than a 1/16" expansion. It will take longer to
break the glue bond but it will eventually fatigue if you cycle the
moisture content a few times.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2f84a5e9-3745-424c-9395-4a245bc8e99e@u24g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> Mike is not saying to ignore the dimensional instability of your project
>> wood, but that all to often what is meant as a guide is taken as gospel
>> ... IOW, the difference between an in-depth understanding of the issue,
>> and mistaking opinion as knowledge.
>>
> NOT TALKING OPINION, JUST FACT. HOW ABOUT THE SLED WITH A PERFECTLY
> FIT OAK RUNNER FOR THE TABLE SLOT. STARTS GETTING TOO TIGHT TO USE.
> SANDED AWAY TO FIT, 3 OR 4 TIMES OVER A PERIOD OF A FEW WEEKS. SIX
> MONTHS LATER IT IS SO SLOPPY IT IS UNUSABLE. I GUESS MAYBE THE CAST
> IRON SLOT WAS EXPANDING AND CONTRACTING.
>
Excellent! <g>
No, that has never happened to me! ;-)
--
Jim in NC
Edward Hennessey wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> mkr5000 wrote:
>>> EDWARD --
>>>
>>> Get over yourself.
>>>
>>> I love newsgroups for hands on feedback from folks -- that's why
>>> I'm
>>> here.
>>>
>>> The stuff you can't get in a book.
>>>
>>> I like to be thorough -- so what? Every project I've pursued has
>>> ultimately been 100% and often BETTER than pro. I've done my share
>>> of
>>> woodworking, have a complete
>>> metalworking shop complete with CNC -- blah blah blah.
>>>
>>> I've never built a countertop other than laminate and I've done
>>> several that way -- again I'M HERE for "personal experiences" on
>>> materials I haven't used for this application.
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't be a girl.
>>> And stop already with your pompous English.
>>
>
> SNIP
>
> Mkr:
>
> Well, you have a strong position of why you're here. What about why
> we're here?
>
> Is that any element of your concern?
>
> You jump from material to material and expect us to dance again
> when you show insufficient care for fully registering what has already
> been said to you.
>
> Then you want us to supply enough information to reconstruct the
> readily-available topical arguments in specialized books and web
> articles
> which you can't be bothered to read for background so
> your questions considerately address unresolved or difficult points
> that may be of more interest to us.
>
> If my English was imprecise, you will find a way to endorse that
> with an explanation. If not, you've said nothing except you feel
> free from any obligation to proof.
>
> If you did not find my rcm remarks on grout helpful, though metal tile
> was a notion you subsequently abandoned, your objections were
> absent...as were your thanks.
>
> And calling someone "a girl"? Oh dude.
>
> There are places on Usenet where you occasionally get a sense
> of amiable people who become more than letters on a screen,
> helpful people willing to share what they know, knowing we
> all have something to learn from one another. If someone is so kind
> as to give me a tip, post some OT nugget, try out a joke or ornament
> a lesson with a personal story, I appreciate their efforts. That's
> what
> makes my wheel go round.
>
> Good luck with your approach.
>
> Edward Hennessey
Edward - please watch your attributes - I did not make the statements you
are attributing to me.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Feb 2, 2:27=A0pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
> . =A0It's just pointless.
>
> =A0Actually, I think you do have a point. However, if you comb your hair
> just right no one will notice. ;^)
>
> Mike, you are right it is pointless to continue this subject. I hope I
> didn't offend. It is just fun sometimes to be a bit of an arshole and
> I'll admit I was\am.
>
> I agree it is time for all of us to return to making sawdust so we can
> learn some more about our craft.
>
> This was the first time in a long time I ever followed a subject that
> went more than 10 posts.
DO try to resist next time, mmkay?
=A0Compensate
> for the boards' tendency to shrink more at the ends
> by cutting the joints ever so slightly concave, or
> "sprung."
Hmmmm first time I have heard a plausible reason for the sprung joint
(greater shrinkage at the ends). Till now I always thought it was such
crap. Adding tension across the entire joint just never made sense.
Even so, I am still not convinced that having tension across the whole
joint forever, is better than letting glue try to hold the end of a
joint together when it dries out.
On 1/27/2011 3:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
> topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
> here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
> movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
> joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.
>
> Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
> extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
> quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
> at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
> will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
> pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
> about.
>
> A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
> not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
> experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
> 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
> they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
> state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.
>
> I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
> recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
> 100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.
>
> I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
> what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
> technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
> about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
> evidence in front of your eyes.
>
> It does no good to suggest throwing a build up of oak boards on the garage
> floor - or even a piece of plywood on the garage floor. Is that what you
> are building? Is that where it will be used?
>
> A lot of guys here like to think of themselves as "craftsmen" becuase they
> do things a certain way - regardless of whether that way was even called
> for. Oh well. The fact is that the real craftsmen (myself not included in
> that term) have figured out when to apply the principles of wood movement,
> and when not to worry about it. And... to what extent. There is an awful
> lot of unwarranted alarmist theory prvelent here that is just not well
> founded woodworking practice. At a point, after it's gone on long enough...
> it takes on a life of it's own. That though, does not make it accurate.
What he said ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
> [email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> Methinks this
>>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.
>>>
>> Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
>> craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
>> the problems associated with it.
>>
>> The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
>> http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm
>>
>> The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
>> from the feds
>> Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
>> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_04.pdf
>>
>> Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
>> the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
>> You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
>> or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.
>
> Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.
>
>> Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
>> ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
>> take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
>> from the table top.
None of the comments above address my original comments. Oh well...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:50:15 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Kukri 11, Robbers 0. I LIKE IT! Dad brought one back to me from
>> Thailand when he was over dumping chickens, pigs, and cows out of
>> C-123s over Nam in the '60s. (It took 4-6 airmen to convince a cow
>> to
>> jump out of a cargo plane at 1,000' with a parachute on its back.)
>> (P.S: That's a kukri, not a Gurkha, he brought back.)
>>
>
>O.K. Here's a quick Nepalese quiz: "Why does a guy carry a gun?"
Because it has a reach which is longer than his arm + kukri?
>>>Did I forget to say "Happy New Year" in my annual call?
>>
>> Does it matter? <wink>
>
>That's right, you quit the cell phone towers...not to mention (eek)
>that
>special, blinking blewtooth gizmo.
???
--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 17:56:13 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> Perhaps you're too touchy, Mike. I've had that happen half a dozen
>> times to me in the past six months (2 groups) by not-too-tech-savvy
>> individuals. I only correct those who reply without a salutation. Most
>> people understand the difference so it's not a bother.
>
>Perhaps. You know how it is - you make enough gaffs on your own without
>having someone else's words attributed to you...
Shrug it off. Internetters will be internetters.
--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:50:15 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>
>>> Kukri 11, Robbers 0. I LIKE IT! Dad brought one back to me from
>>> Thailand when he was over dumping chickens, pigs, and cows out of
>>> C-123s over Nam in the '60s. (It took 4-6 airmen to convince a cow
>>> to
>>> jump out of a cargo plane at 1,000' with a parachute on its back.)
>>> (P.S: That's a kukri, not a Gurkha, he brought back.)
>>>
>>
>>O.K. Here's a quick Nepalese quiz: "Why does a guy carry a gun?"
>
> Because it has a reach which is longer than his arm + kukri?
>
>
LJ:
Because he can't fit a Gurkha in his pocket.
>>>>Did I forget to say "Happy New Year" in my annual call?
>>>
>>> Does it matter? <wink>
>>
>>That's right, you quit the cell phone towers...not to mention (eek)
>>that
>>special, blinking blewtooth gizmo.
>
> ???
Isn't that an approximate description of the pulsing earwear item
the wireless people have? Ah, but it is probably "bluetooth" unless
the owner is waiting for that special afterlife call.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey
Edward Hennessey wrote:
>
> Hey Mike and Larry:
>
> It was probably operator error and it has probably happened
> before with no one noticing. Of late, however, the "touchy" pad
> on the box has been responsible for a few deviations as well.
> One of the causes will be more susceptible to
> a sure repair shop fix.
It's not a big deal at all Edward. I just raised the point as a matter of
awareness - if that's the right word to use... not because it ticked me off
in any way.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward Hennessey wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey Mike and Larry:
>>
>> It was probably operator error and it has probably happened
>> before with no one noticing. Of late, however, the "touchy" pad
>> on the box has been responsible for a few deviations as well.
>> One of the causes will be more susceptible to
>> a sure repair shop fix.
>
> It's not a big deal at all Edward. I just raised the point as a
> matter of awareness - if that's the right word to use... not because
> it ticked me off in any way.
>
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
M:
All clear. All good.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 17:56:13 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps you're too touchy, Mike. I've had that happen half a dozen
>>> times to me in the past six months (2 groups) by
>>> not-too-tech-savvy
>>> individuals. I only correct those who reply without a salutation.
>>> Most
>>> people understand the difference so it's not a bother.
>>
>>Perhaps. You know how it is - you make enough gaffs on your own
>>without
>>having someone else's words attributed to you...
>
> Shrug it off. Internetters will be internetters.
>
> --
> An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
> hoping it will eat him last.
> -- Sir Winston Churchill
Hey Mike and Larry:
It was probably operator error and it has probably happened
before with no one noticing. Of late, however, the "touchy" pad
on the box has been responsible for a few deviations as well.
One of the causes will be more susceptible to
a sure repair shop fix.
The likelihood, however, of confusing the outpourings
displayed by the other individual with Mike's character
would seem thin for anyone who reads the group.
Thanks and regards,
Edward Hennessey
> Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. =A0I h=
ave
> more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were intended for
> other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old, and do not exhibit
> your proposed symptoms.
MEASURE THE WIDTH OF THAT GLUE-UP EVERY DAY FOR A YEAR AND TELL ME
WHAT YOU SEE.
> And that has what to do with Central NY state? =A0You - like many, quote
> irrelevant distractions in attempt to pursuade others that you have some
> unique knowledge.
CALIFORNIA EVEN HUMIDITY AND TEMPERATURE ALL YEAR =3D MINIMUM
DIMENSIONAL CHANGE. NY =3D LOTS OF CHANGE IN WINTER WHEN HEATER DRYS OUT
HOUSE. LOTS OF CHANGE IN SUMMER WHEN HUMIDITY RUNS HIGH.
> >
> Again - something besides theoretical rhetoric. =A0I gave you a real worl=
d
> experience. =A0Counter that in like terms. =A0Look at the furniture in yo=
ur
> house before you reply.
OK, BUILD YOURSELF A KITCHEN WITH COPE AND STICK DOORS WITH SOLID WOOD
PANELS. LEAVE ZERO CLEARANCE AND GLUE IN THE PANELS AT ALL SIDES.
WRITE BACK IN A YEAR OR TWO.
> > have seen it as have millions of intelligent woodworkers over the
> > centuries.
>
> I am not sure you have understood the conditions under which they speak.
>
DON'T QUITE FOLLOW YOUR MEANING
> You miss my point. =A0I was speaking to the idea expressed above my comme=
nt,
> about the common forces of wood. =A0And... yes I do know how these items =
are
> attached. =A0Look at all of the furniture in your house and see how much =
of
> that is attached solidly, even in cross grain situations. =A0Yes - I do m=
ean
> solid wood.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected] Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nobody misses your point. We should just realize by now you are
hopeless in your denial.
A 30" wide piece of wood is going to vary by more than 1/4" in width
over the span of a year in any environment with changing weather.
Maybe somewhere in mid-California you can be consistent enough this
won't happen. When that wood changes size, it will break things if it
can't find some way to accommodate that expansion or contraction. I
have seen it as have millions of intelligent woodworkers over the
centuries.
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> assembly techniques. Someone posted a link to a Roy Underwood Side
>> table:
>>
>> http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html
>>
>> and if you watched it, you'll see the top is 1" thick 32" wide flat
>
> Yes but...
>
> Mr. Mike said in his post #20 that he "glued, screwed and nailed" and
> has never seen a problem.
If I ever said that, I would immediately appologize for having misspoken,
but you would have to show me those words, because I could never say I have
never had problems with wood moving.
> Mr. Roy in the first 4 minutes of the
> referenced video shows that you need to account for wood movement. So
> you can't just glue everything with no problem. So Mike is totally
> wrong and ignorant to the fact that you MUST account for wood movement
I'm sorry, but you really did not read a thing I wrote correctly. No wonder
you are so worked up by this, but the error in reading what I wrote lies
within your understanding of my words.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote
> OK, BUILD YOURSELF A KITCHEN WITH COPE AND STICK DOORS WITH SOLID WOOD
> PANELS. LEAVE ZERO CLEARANCE AND GLUE IN THE PANELS AT ALL SIDES.
> WRITE BACK IN A YEAR OR TWO.
A few times a few years ago, I built my first set of raised panel kitchen
cabinets. Red oak, kiln dried. I did not fully understand the need for a
little space between door panels and the frames around the doors.
A peninsula was built, and I made the whole thing look like doors and
panels, but built it as 5 or 6 panels in the same multiple railed unit,
around 9 feet long.
The house was shut up over the summer, with no AC or heat on over a summer
break. (student built house project) That whole panel had self destructed.
I had to redo the whole thing, with new rails and stiles, and this time, cut
an eight off of the size of each of the panels that had expanded and blown
the whole assembly apart.
OK, now that I have shown a personal experience with wood movement, does
everyone believe that it is an important factor? Some will not, because
they choose to only believe what they want.
--
Jim in NC
On 1/27/2011 3:37 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> A 30" wide piece of wood is going to vary by more than 1/4" in width
> over the span of a year in any environment with changing weather.
Well, realistically, that might be too much, or way too little.
In order to say that with any accuracy one would also have to specify
the species of wood and its cut/whether the shrinkage is radial,
tangential or a combination thereof, the expected change in RH from
equilibrium moisture content/initial moisture content at start of the
change.
One also needs to consider that wood shrinkage tables are based on an
"average", which means there are extremes on both ends.
IOW, and although it is a good place to start, if you plan for just the
average based on a table and with no prior experience factor, you could
well err significantly either way, to the detriment of the project.
Mike is not saying to ignore the dimensional instability of your project
wood, but that all to often what is meant as a guide is taken as gospel
... IOW, the difference between an in-depth understanding of the issue,
and mistaking opinion as knowledge.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
In article <5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Methinks this
> > notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.
> >
> Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
> craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
> the problems associated with it.
>
> The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
> http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm
>
> The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
> from the feds
> Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_04.pdf
>
> Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
> the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
> You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
> or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.
Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.
> Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
> ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
> take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
> from the table top.
On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 23:58:42 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:23:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Edward Hennessey wrote:
>>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> mkr5000 wrote:
>>>>>> EDWARD --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Get over yourself.
>>
>>>> SNIP
>>>>
>>>> Mkr:
>>
>> See the line above? He got the attribution right.
>
>Nope - see the top line. Where it says ">> Edward Hennessey wrote:
>>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>
>That is an attribute, not anything he uses as a salutation. What he emplyed
>was a salutation.
Perhaps you're too touchy, Mike. I've had that happen half a dozen
times to me in the past six months (2 groups) by not-too-tech-savvy
individuals. I only correct those who reply without a salutation. Most
people understand the difference so it's not a bother.
--
We're all here because we're not all there.
Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> Perhaps you're too touchy, Mike. I've had that happen half a dozen
> times to me in the past six months (2 groups) by not-too-tech-savvy
> individuals. I only correct those who reply without a salutation. Most
> people understand the difference so it's not a bother.
Perhaps. You know how it is - you make enough gaffs on your own without
having someone else's words attributed to you...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:29:06 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> Ed, just plonk that mkr5000 troll and forget him. Life's too short
>>> to
>>> suffer fools.
>>
>>Larry:
>>
>>Thanks. I don't see the OP unless someone quotes him.
>
> Nor do I.
>
>
>>If his contribution to knowledge lies in cutting words out of
>>the dictionary or another mouth because he doesn't
>>know them or use them, that's all I need to hear.
>
> <g>
>
>
>>But there's a streak of that on the Internet and streets.
>>Employ a word it may take sentences to define and a
>>lunkhead gets "dissed". When someone expects you to
>>summarize a longer exposition or gives a cracked opinion while
>>noting tl;dr ("too long; didn't read") it is either supposed you
>>are obliged to explain or value what their laziness couldn't
>>surmount. Nah. This isn't a world based on the democratic
>>principle that someone's ignorance equals someone else's knowledge.
>>
>>Wait until the OP signs a contract
>>his lawyer ineptly interprets. Sure, he can blame the attorney.
>>But he can also thank himself for his aversion to taking any
>>opportunity he can to expand his horizons.
>>
>>Here are a couple of things you may find amusing:
>>
>>http://www.neatorama.com/2011/01/29/40-train-robbers-vs-1-gurkha/
>
> Kukri 11, Robbers 0. I LIKE IT! Dad brought one back to me from
> Thailand when he was over dumping chickens, pigs, and cows out of
> C-123s over Nam in the '60s. (It took 4-6 airmen to convince a cow
> to
> jump out of a cargo plane at 1,000' with a parachute on its back.)
> (P.S: That's a kukri, not a Gurkha, he brought back.)
>
O.K. Here's a quick Nepalese quiz: "Why does a guy carry a gun?"
>
>>If you ever want to uncork a fountain of praise, talk to a British
>>officer from
>>a Gurkha regiment.
>
> I've read many books touching on the famed Gurkha warriors, all full
> of praise.
>
>
>>http://gawker.com/5745560/happy-new-year-text-message-accidentally-detonates-suicide-bomber
>>
>>This is the first entrant in the 2011 wireless Darwin-Karma awards.
>
> Keep up the good work, texters! Darwin and the world thank you.
>
>
>> It may have already have blown the field away.
>
> Ouch! The pun was almost as deadly as the bomb.
>
>
>>Did I forget to say "Happy New Year" in my annual call?
>
> Does it matter? <wink>
That's right, you quit the cell phone towers...not to mention (eek)
that
special, blinking blewtooth gizmo.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:29:06 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Ed, just plonk that mkr5000 troll and forget him. Life's too short
>> to
>> suffer fools.
>
>Larry:
>
>Thanks. I don't see the OP unless someone quotes him.
Nor do I.
>If his contribution to knowledge lies in cutting words out of
>the dictionary or another mouth because he doesn't
>know them or use them, that's all I need to hear.
<g>
>But there's a streak of that on the Internet and streets.
>Employ a word it may take sentences to define and a
>lunkhead gets "dissed". When someone expects you to
>summarize a longer exposition or gives a cracked opinion while
>noting tl;dr ("too long; didn't read") it is either supposed you
>are obliged to explain or value what their laziness couldn't
>surmount. Nah. This isn't a world based on the democratic
>principle that someone's ignorance equals someone else's knowledge.
>
>Wait until the OP signs a contract
>his lawyer ineptly interprets. Sure, he can blame the attorney.
>But he can also thank himself for his aversion to taking any
>opportunity he can to expand his horizons.
>
>Here are a couple of things you may find amusing:
>
>http://www.neatorama.com/2011/01/29/40-train-robbers-vs-1-gurkha/
Kukri 11, Robbers 0. I LIKE IT! Dad brought one back to me from
Thailand when he was over dumping chickens, pigs, and cows out of
C-123s over Nam in the '60s. (It took 4-6 airmen to convince a cow to
jump out of a cargo plane at 1,000' with a parachute on its back.)
(P.S: That's a kukri, not a Gurkha, he brought back.)
>If you ever want to uncork a fountain of praise, talk to a British
>officer from
>a Gurkha regiment.
I've read many books touching on the famed Gurkha warriors, all full
of praise.
>http://gawker.com/5745560/happy-new-year-text-message-accidentally-detonates-suicide-bomber
>
>This is the first entrant in the 2011 wireless Darwin-Karma awards.
Keep up the good work, texters! Darwin and the world thank you.
> It may have already have blown the field away.
Ouch! The pun was almost as deadly as the bomb.
>Did I forget to say "Happy New Year" in my annual call?
Does it matter? <wink>
--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On 1/27/2011 2:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> > knuttle wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >> If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
> >> years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
> >> is a bad idea.
> >
> > Ok - to be more fair to knuttle's response...
> >
> > As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
> > topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
> > here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
> > movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
> > joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.
> >
> > Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
> > extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
> > quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
> > at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
> > will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
> > pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
> > about.
> >
> > A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
> > not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
> > experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
> > 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
> > they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
> > state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.
> >
> > I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
> > recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
> > 100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.
> >
> > I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
> > what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
> > technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
> > about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
> > evidence in front of your eyes.
> >
> >
> A case in point: I made a cutting board that's 19 inches wide from 1" x
> 3/4" maple strips. I butt-jointed (glued with Titebond type I) maple
> strips on each end, lengthwise against the endgrain, finished it with
> mineral oil (which gets lightly sanded and replenished about once very
> year or so). I did it more or less as an experiment - what's the worst
> that could happen - I'd have to through out an easily replaceable cuting
> board? No big deal.
> That cutting board has been in daily use for over eight years, in a home
> that uses forced-air heat in winter (which dries the air) and a swamp
> cooler in summer (makes air very humid). You'd think that's about the
> worst possible scenario for wood movement. To hear some people, those
> end finish strips should have separated from the endgrain years ago.
> But they haven't. Those butt jointed ends are still as tight as the
> day I first made the board.
One of the benefits of Titebond and other glues based on similar
chemistry is that they creep. This allows you to get away with poor
design.
In article
<[email protected]>,
mkr5000 <[email protected]> wrote:
> I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
> glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
> well?
>
> Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
> to 30" or so.
>
> I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
> bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
> the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
> Why not?
>
> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> style.
Not durable. There's a reason "butcher block" is edge or (more properly,
but rarely seen) end grain. Flatways, the wood is more prone to dent -
also, wide flat boards in countertop (wet, abusive) use are prone to
warp.
To make a countertop from 1" material, Cut your 1" boards into 2"
strips and glue up 30 or so strips with the 1" side up - or just buy a
butcherblock top (costs less than buying the stock to make one, most of
the time, if you shop well.)
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
mkr5000 wrote:
> I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
> glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
> well?
>
> Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
> to 30" or so.
>
> I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
> bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
> the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
> Why not?
>
> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> style.
If you're merely after the butcher-block "look," you might try maple (etc.)
manufactured laminate flooring.
You'll need a router to get the edges to match and some glue.
I did that with a bunch of left-over el cheapo material over a year ago. It
looks nice and works well. I figured if the stuff was designed to withstand
dirt, mud, abrasion, water, and golf shoes, it would cover the funky-looking
60's Formica quite well.
It did.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward Hennessey wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> mkr5000 wrote:
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>> Mkr:
>>Well, you have a strong position of why you're here. What about why
>> we're here?
SNIP
>
> Edward - please watch your attributes - I did not make the
> statements you are attributing to me.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
Mike:
If there is a better way for me to remove any uncertainty, please
let me know and I'll take measures. I did, as evidenced above,
address the OP as Mkr. But amidst the length of the rest of
the text, that could be overlooked.
To reaffirm for the record, you were not implicated
in this sidelight chat other than being a person who quoted
maker, to whom I responded.
Just because you both use the initial M in your names, I presume
no genetic link.
Thanks again,
Edward Hennessey
ed_h <[email protected]> wrote in news:ee61a7c2-50a0-459d-83c4-
[email protected]:
> Maple true butcher block (endgrain up) counter top. Twelve years old
> and counting. Wide seasonal humidity changes. Gets wet a lot. No
> cracks.
>
> http://bullfire.net/Furniture/IMG_0738a.JPG
>
> Read some details, about halfway down the page:
>
> http://bullfire.net/Furniture/Furniture.html
Wow, that's beautiful ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> mkr5000 wrote:
>> EDWARD --
>>
>> Get over yourself.
>>
>> I love newsgroups for hands on feedback from folks -- that's why
>> I'm
>> here.
>>
>> The stuff you can't get in a book.
>>
>> I like to be thorough -- so what? Every project I've pursued has
>> ultimately been 100% and often BETTER than pro. I've done my share
>> of
>> woodworking, have a complete
>> metalworking shop complete with CNC -- blah blah blah.
>>
>> I've never built a countertop other than laminate and I've done
>> several that way -- again I'M HERE for "personal experiences" on
>> materials I haven't used for this application.
>>
>>
>> Don't be a girl.
>> And stop already with your pompous English.
>
SNIP
Mkr:
Well, you have a strong position of why you're here. What about why
we're here?
Is that any element of your concern?
You jump from material to material and expect us to dance again
when you show insufficient care for fully registering what has already
been said to you.
Then you want us to supply enough information to reconstruct the
readily-available topical arguments in specialized books and web
articles
which you can't be bothered to read for background so
your questions considerately address unresolved or difficult points
that may be of more interest to us.
If my English was imprecise, you will find a way to endorse that
with an explanation. If not, you've said nothing except you feel
free from any obligation to proof.
If you did not find my rcm remarks on grout helpful, though metal tile
was a notion you subsequently abandoned, your objections were
absent...as were your thanks.
And calling someone "a girl"? Oh dude.
There are places on Usenet where you occasionally get a sense
of amiable people who become more than letters on a screen,
helpful people willing to share what they know, knowing we
all have something to learn from one another. If someone is so kind
as to give me a tip, post some OT nugget, try out a joke or ornament
a lesson with a personal story, I appreciate their efforts. That's
what
makes my wheel go round.
Good luck with your approach.
Edward Hennessey
On Jan 31, 8:27=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
> > Mike Marlow wrote:
> >> Morgans wrote:
>
> >>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
> >>> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>
> >> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that
> >> this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. =A0Wood
> >> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. =A0It's
> >> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning of the
> >> thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood movement was
> >> a mere myth.
>
> > Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
>
> Go ahead and read it again. =A0Take note of such literary techniques as
> statements like "At least - not to this level", and Methinks this notion =
of
> wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.". =A0Don't forget to=
look
> at post that this was in response to, in order to maintain context. =A0It=
's
> convenient to snip parts of a post, but context is everything. =A0While y=
ou
> are at it - don't forget to include those parts where I very clearly stat=
ed
> that I do not dispute the fact that wood moves. =A0But, that would be
> inconvenient, wouldn't it?
>
> As is common in communications, a word or a phrase can be taken more than
> one way by the person hearing or reading the expressions of another. =A0A=
t
> that point, it is understandable. =A0At the point where that confusion is
> clarified by such direct statements as "I do not deny that wood moves" (o=
r
> something very close to that), any further insistence on the part of the
> reader/hearer that the speaker was saying something else, now becomes sim=
ply
> that - an insistence on the part of the hearer to either hear what he
> chooses, or to simply misrepresent the words of the speaker.
>
> So - believe what you will.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
There seems to be a bit of 'situational reading' going on in here and
other news groups, Mike.
Personally, I only tend to hold a writer to a high standard of messing
with semantics if he, himself, tends to do that to others.
Seeing that I can't say that about you, the qualifier "At least - not
to this level" should have been good enough for anybody.
But nooooooooooooooo... there's always those who will make mountains
out of mole hills. I think they do that either out of carelessness, or
to compensate for inadequate penis size.
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> Those butt jointed ends are still as tight as the
>> day I first made the board.- Hide quoted text -
>>
> 1. Daily use. Let it dry out for a few months, then do some more daily
> use. Then dry again for a few months. Three or four cycles and it's
> done.
>
But how does that resolve with the 80 - 120 year old furniture found in
homes that has not deteriorated as you suggest it should? My point remains
that the whole notion of wood movement has grown legs of its own. Look
around you and try to resolve the theory you are holding on to with the
furniture you can see. It will point to some misunderstandings or some over
simplifications in how you are looking at this matter.
> 2. Yes, cutting boards are glued strips of face-to-face joinst so you
> you have edge grain. The expansion across this dimension fo the stock
> is far less than the expansion across the face.
And how about pieces that are not glued face to face and have survived all
of these decades? It's always worth testing the theory against the
evidence.
>
> 4. 19" across the edge grain which has less expansion is likey only to
> account for little more than a 1/16" expansion. It will take longer to
> break the glue bond but it will eventually fatigue if you cycle the
> moisture content a few times.
That is the part of your theory that just does not bear up under the
evidence around you. If that were the case, the majority of the furniture
around you that is over 40 years old would simply not exist today.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Jan 30, 12:08=A0pm, Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> No cracks but it is either sealed really, really good, or it moves some.
> =A0 As long as their is no immovable objects trying to move other
> immovable objects all is well:-)
>
It is just "sealed" with mineral oil periodically (gallons of it over
the years), but you're right, it moves. The mounting design allows
it.
Thanks for the compliment, too, Jack.
dadiOH wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Jim Weisgram wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity
>>> and the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very
>>> large. The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to
>>> the particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.
>>
>> I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is
>> with the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not
>> been my experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty
>> of things that have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the
>> years, that have held together just well. No extreem movement over
>> the seasons, no splitting, no angry reactions. To listen to a lot of
>> what's posted here one has to wonder just how any piece of furniture
>> has survived over the years. Methinks this notion of wood movement
>> has taken on a set of legs of its own.
>
> Got a table - any table - with a solid top? Turn it over and see how
> the top is attached to the aprons and ask yourself why it is done
> that way.
You miss my point. I was speaking to the idea expressed above my comment,
about the common forces of wood. And... yes I do know how these items are
attached. Look at all of the furniture in your house and see how much of
that is attached solidly, even in cross grain situations. Yes - I do mean
solid wood.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
>
> Other than a lot of maintenance, I don't see any reason he can't as long as
> he attaches it to the cabinet base in a manner that let's it expand and
> contract.
Yeah it "might" work out OK but even with proper dynamic attachment
the possibility of a big problem is still greater than 50% IMNSHO.
Have you seen many flat panel counter tops? Probably a reason you
haven't. I would not take this job on contract. The customer is always
right but the customer will also want me to fix the problem once it
starts happening or simply blame me.
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> That is the part of your theory that just does not bear up under the
>> evidence around you. If that were the case, the majority of the
>> furniture around you that is over 40 years old would simply not
>> exist today.
>>
>
> Did you ever get the point that so many people made here that there
> are ways to build furniture so the wood movment won't break it? 95% of
> professionally made solid wood furniture is built with techniques to
> allow the expansion to occur without any problem. The other 5% fails.
> Much like you fail to get the basic point a child could understand.
Yes I do get that point, and I understand that point. You are missing my
point and there comes a point in time where we are not doing a good job of
getting our point across to each other, so it's really time to just let it
drop. You are not getting what I am saying, and that's fine.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
knuttle wrote:
> On 1/27/2011 9:17 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> In article<5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
>>> [email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> Methinks this
>>>>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.
>>>>>
>>>> Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
>>>> craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help
>>>> avoid the problems associated with it.
>>>>
>>>> The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
>>>> http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm
>>>>
>>>> The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this
>>>> one from the feds
>>>> Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
>>>> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_04.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat
>>>> om the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what
>>>> happens. You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it
>>>> might take 48 or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.
>>>
>>> Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.
>>>
>>>> Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
>>>> ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
>>>> take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
>>>> from the table top.
>>
>> None of the comments above address my original comments. Oh well...
>>
> If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
> years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
> is a bad idea.
I am not the original poster. I believe the consensus of 1000's of years is
that wood has successfully been joined without the catastrophic predictions
put forward. To quote one of the regulars here - look underneath some of
your furniture and ask yourself how in the hell did that piece not rip
itself apart. According to the guys on the newsgroup, this thing should
have exploded by now.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
. =A0It's just pointless.
>
Actually, I think you do have a point. However, if you comb your hair
just right no one will notice. ;^)
Mike, you are right it is pointless to continue this subject. I hope I
didn't offend. It is just fun sometimes to be a bit of an arshole and
I'll admit I was\am.
I agree it is time for all of us to return to making sawdust so we can
learn some more about our craft.
This was the first time in a long time I ever followed a subject that
went more than 10 posts.
>
> Why not?
>
> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> style.
Lots of issues.
Countertop typically means kitchen. Kitchen usually means moisture.
Moisture means wood movement. Movement means cupping at least. So very
likely the counter top would buckle up or down. Also likely break the
edge glued joints eventually. Also need to think abput what to do if
you have a corner, how do you let the counter top expand properly
withouth breaking itself apart. A 30 inch wide maple panel will change
with by 0.42 inches with a 4% change in moisture, about the average
range of change over a year in a house in general, a wet counter top
likely a greater percentage.
Flat panels as countertops are just way too much trouble.
Now you mention using particle board to keep it flat. You cannot glue
a 30" wide panel to ply or particle which does not expand like solid
wood. So I guess you could do screws through slots but you will come
to find that mechanical fastners are not very well matched against the
hydraulic pressures of mother nature.
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Here are a couple of things you wrote in separate posts...
>>>
>>> "I've got plenty of things that
>>> have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that
>>> have held together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons,
>>> no splitting, no angry reactions."
>>>
>>> "I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
>>> 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
>>> they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of
>>> Central NY state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered
>>> consequential."
>>> Glue and screws and/or nails are mentioned in both as are lack of
>>> problems.
>>
>> Very good - you can paste my comments into a post. But - you failed
>> the test because simply posting those words does not indicate any
>> statement from me that denies the movement of wood.
>
>That wasn't what you asked. See below.
>
>
>In a post form Sonoma (you snipped it and your reply)...
>
>>> Mr. Mike said in his post #20 that he "glued, screwed and nailed" and
>>> has never seen a problem.
>>
>> If I ever said that, I would immediately appologize for having
>> misspoken, but you would have to show me those words, because I could
>> never say I have never had problems with wood moving
>
>You asked to be shown where you said what he quoted. I showed you. No
>apology though, just snipping and equivocation.
>
>_______________________
>
>> I'm sorry that
>> you and Sonoma seem to suffer from an inability to separate what you
>> want someone to have said, from what they really said,
>
>Actually, you seem to have an inability to comprehend what you really said.
>Even when it is shown to you
Actually, it seems pretty clear that he has said that he has seen lots
of instances where there have never been problems, and that he did NOT
say that there were no examples where there have been problems. Saying
that he has seen lots of water that was not frozen is not the same as
saying that there is no such thing as ice.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
> dust by now.
Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I just
send you a free metronome?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> I hope you're not one of those lead guys who thinks time is a
> magazine. :-)
It isn't??????? Holy shit! But - I'm an open minded player. Speak to me
brother... Actually no - I'm one of those lead players who really syncs up
with the drummer. Some very large percentage of my dynamics are derived
there.
>
> What do you throw a drowning lead player?
> His amp.
Ohhhhhhh..... you never should have thrown that one out there. But, I'm
going to resist. Shows how nice a guy I really am, don't it? I'm biting my
tongue, but I'm going to be a nice guy. After all - my mom told me never to
make fun of the handicapped...
xis
Robatoy wrote:
> On Jan 31, 9:32 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>>> There seems to be a bit of 'situational reading' going on in here
>>> and other news groups, Mike.
>>> Personally, I only tend to hold a writer to a high standard of
>>> messing with semantics if he, himself, tends to do that to others.
>>> Seeing that I can't say that about you, the qualifier "At least -
>>> not to this level" should have been good enough for anybody.
>>> But nooooooooooooooo... there's always those who will make mountains
>>> out of mole hills. I think they do that either out of carelessness,
>>> or to compensate for inadequate penis size.
>>
>> I appreciate that Robatoy. So by the way - what's wrong with a penis
>> that just can't get past 9"? Ya know - age does take its toll...
>>
>
> If it's 'wood' it oughtta expand a LOT with a little moisture?
This conversation can immediately take a turn in a new direction... A
radical turn...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> assembly techniques. Someone posted a link to a Roy Underwood Side
>> table:
>>
>> http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html
>>
>> and if you watched it, you'll see the top is 1" thick 32" wide flat
>
> Yes but...
>
> Mr. Mike said in his post #20 that he "glued, screwed and nailed" and
> has never seen a problem. Mr. Roy in the first 4 minutes of the
> referenced video shows that you need to account for wood movement. So
> you can't just glue everything with no problem. So Mike is totally
> wrong and ignorant to the fact that you MUST account for wood movement
> and this "notion" has NOT "taken on a set of legs of its own." but
> rather is a known fact that any intelligent woodworker accounts for in
> his design, even back in the days that Mr. Roy is exploring. They very
> concept of a breadboard end and the traditional attachment method
> proves the point.
Here is a copy and paste of a reply I posted fairly early on in this thread.
"As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
joinery. It is that point with which I take exception."
I should think that paragraph clearly articulates my point, and even more
clearly stands in contrast to the manner in which you are attempting to
misrepresent my words. Compare what you wrote above, to what I state in the
quoted text immediately above this. I think even you can see a big
difference between what I actually wrote and the words you are trying to put
in my mouth.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
dadiOH wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Morgans wrote:
>>
>>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
>>> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>>>
>>
>> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that
>> this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood
>> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
>> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning of the
>> thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood movement was
>> a mere myth.
>
> Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
Go ahead and read it again. Take note of such literary techniques as
statements like "At least - not to this level", and Methinks this notion of
wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.". Don't forget to look
at post that this was in response to, in order to maintain context. It's
convenient to snip parts of a post, but context is everything. While you
are at it - don't forget to include those parts where I very clearly stated
that I do not dispute the fact that wood moves. But, that would be
inconvenient, wouldn't it?
As is common in communications, a word or a phrase can be taken more than
one way by the person hearing or reading the expressions of another. At
that point, it is understandable. At the point where that confusion is
clarified by such direct statements as "I do not deny that wood moves" (or
something very close to that), any further insistence on the part of the
reader/hearer that the speaker was saying something else, now becomes simply
that - an insistence on the part of the hearer to either hear what he
chooses, or to simply misrepresent the words of the speaker.
So - believe what you will.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 14:11:30 -0800 (PST), mkr5000 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Well of course I would seal the surface well [...snip...]
Won't matter. Humidity changes will be slowed a bit but not stopped.
> As for the particle board, it wouldn't be seen
>but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
>like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple from
>underneath for added strength and stability. ?
>
Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity and
the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very large.
The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to the
particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.
On Jan 31, 3:13=A0pm, basilisk <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:14:11 -0800 (PST), mkr5000 wrote:
> > I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
> > glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
> > well?
>
> > Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
> > to 30" or so.
>
> > I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
> > bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
> > the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
> > Why not?
>
> > I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> > style.
>
> There's no doubt wood movement can cause a lot of problems,
> just look at the ruckus it stirred up in here.
>
> basilisk
over in 115
On Jan 26, 1:14=A0pm, mkr5000 <[email protected]> wrote:
> I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
> glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
> well?
>
> Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
> to 30" or so.
>
> I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
> bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
> the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
> Why not?
>
> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> style.
Maple moves, flakeboard doesn't (assuming it doesn't
rot). Better to join the boards with splines, biscuits,
dowels, whatever you have handy. Compensate
for the boards' tendency to shrink more at the ends
by cutting the joints ever so slightly concave, or
"sprung."
On Jan 31, 9:32=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> > There seems to be a bit of 'situational reading' going on in here and
> > other news groups, Mike.
> > Personally, I only tend to hold a writer to a high standard of messing
> > with semantics if he, himself, tends to do that to others.
> > Seeing that I can't say that about you, the qualifier "At least - not
> > to this level" should have been good enough for anybody.
> > But nooooooooooooooo... there's always those who will make mountains
> > out of mole hills. I think they do that either out of carelessness, or
> > to compensate for inadequate penis size.
>
> I appreciate that Robatoy. =A0So by the way - what's wrong with a penis t=
hat
> just can't get past 9"? =A0Ya know - age does take its toll...
>
If it's 'wood' it oughtta expand a LOT with a little moisture?
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> You miss my point. I was speaking to the idea expressed above my
>> comment, about the common forces of wood. And... yes I do know how
>> these items are attached. Look at all of the furniture in your house
>> and see how much of that is attached solidly, even in cross grain
>> situations. Yes - I do mean solid wood.
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> [email protected] Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Nobody misses your point. We should just realize by now you are
> hopeless in your denial.
BTW - the evidence of shearing screws? I think you've fallen off the track.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
.
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> Did you hear about the band who locked their keys in the van?
> It took them 2 hours to get the bass player out.
I keep a collection of them but I had not heard this one. It's now in the
collection.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
mkr5000 wrote:
> EDWARD --
>
> Get over yourself.
>
> I love newsgroups for hands on feedback from folks -- that's why I'm
> here.
>
> The stuff you can't get in a book.
>
> I like to be thorough -- so what? Every project I've pursued has
> ultimately been 100% and often BETTER than pro. I've done my share of
> woodworking, have a complete
> metalworking shop complete with CNC -- blah blah blah.
>
> I've never built a countertop other than laminate and I've done
> several that way -- again I'M HERE for "personal experiences" on
> materials I haven't used for this application.
>
>
> Don't be a girl.
> And stop already with your pompous English.
It always helps if you leave the attributes and the quoted text in place
when posting a reply.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:52:53 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:50:15 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>> Kukri 11, Robbers 0. I LIKE IT! Dad brought one back to me from
>>>> Thailand when he was over dumping chickens, pigs, and cows out of
>>>> C-123s over Nam in the '60s. (It took 4-6 airmen to convince a cow
>>>> to
>>>> jump out of a cargo plane at 1,000' with a parachute on its back.)
>>>> (P.S: That's a kukri, not a Gurkha, he brought back.)
>>>>
>>>
>>>O.K. Here's a quick Nepalese quiz: "Why does a guy carry a gun?"
>>
>> Because it has a reach which is longer than his arm + kukri?
>>
>>
>
>LJ:
>
>Because he can't fit a Gurkha in his pocket.
I thought Walmarts everywhere carried Gurkha in a Can, a compressed
variety with the folding kukri.
>>>>>Did I forget to say "Happy New Year" in my annual call?
>>>>
>>>> Does it matter? <wink>
>>>
>>>That's right, you quit the cell phone towers...not to mention (eek)
>>>that
>>>special, blinking blewtooth gizmo.
>>
>> ???
>
>Isn't that an approximate description of the pulsing earwear item
>the wireless people have? Ah, but it is probably "bluetooth" unless
>the owner is waiting for that special afterlife call.
I quit TV, not cellphone use, though I rarely use the Tracfone. The
new phone I got ($20) has a camera and can support blewtoofies, but
I've never spent the extra $50 to try it. Cellular reception sucks
badly enough as it is. It 2 people want to hear what the other says,
every time, it's _landline_ for them every time.
P.S: I've never climbed a cell tower, either. I don't know where you
picked that up, Ed.
--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
>
> Go ahead and read it again. =A0Take note of such literary techniques as
> statements like "At least - not to this level", and Methinks this notion =
of
> wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.".
Wow, you should join the circus. Anyone who can backpeddle like that
should be a on a bike in a clown suit going backwards in circles which
is pretty close to what we have seen here.
mkr5000 <[email protected]> wrote:
>I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
>glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
>well?
>
>Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
>to 30" or so.
>
>I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
>bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
>the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
>Why not?
>
>I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
>style.
Reinforce maple with particle board?!?!
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
On 1/26/2011 3:37 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> Compensate
>> for the boards' tendency to shrink more at the ends
>> by cutting the joints ever so slightly concave, or
>> "sprung."
>
> Hmmmm first time I have heard a plausible reason for the sprung joint
> (greater shrinkage at the ends). Till now I always thought it was such
> crap. Adding tension across the entire joint just never made sense.
> Even so, I am still not convinced that having tension across the whole
> joint forever, is better than letting glue try to hold the end of a
> joint together when it dries out.
With today's modern glues the joint probably *would* hold together, but it
wouldn't surprise me if the wood split as some other location while it was
drying out.
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 1/27/2011 9:17 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article<5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
>> [email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> Methinks this
>>>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.
>>>>
>>> Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
>>> craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
>>> the problems associated with it.
>>>
>>> The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
>>> http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm
>>>
>>> The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
>>> from the feds
>>> Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
>>> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_04.pdf
>>>
>>> Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
>>> the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
>>> You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
>>> or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.
>>
>> Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.
>>
>>> Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
>>> ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
>>> take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
>>> from the table top.
>
> None of the comments above address my original comments. Oh well...
>
If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
is a bad idea.
On 1/27/11 3:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> knuttle wrote:
>
>>>
>> If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
>> years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
>> is a bad idea.
>
> Ok - to be more fair to knuttle's response...
>
> As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
> topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
> here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
> movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
> joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.
>
> Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
> extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
> quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
> at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
> will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
> pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
> about.
>
> A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
> not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
> experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
> 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
> they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
> state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.
>
> I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
> recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
> 100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.
>
> I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
> what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
> technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
> about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
> evidence in front of your eyes.
>
> It does no good to suggest throwing a build up of oak boards on the garage
> floor - or even a piece of plywood on the garage floor. Is that what you
> are building? Is that where it will be used?
>
> A lot of guys here like to think of themselves as "craftsmen" becuase they
> do things a certain way - regardless of whether that way was even called
> for. Oh well. The fact is that the real craftsmen (myself not included in
> that term) have figured out when to apply the principles of wood movement,
> and when not to worry about it. And... to what extent. There is an awful
> lot of unwarranted alarmist theory prvelent here that is just not well
> founded woodworking practice. At a point, after it's gone on long enough...
> it takes on a life of it's own. That though, does not make it accurate.
>
I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
dust by now.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/27/11 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
>> dust by now.
>
> Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I just
> send you a free metronome?
>
I'll take the beer..... metronome ends up getting turned off half way
through the first verse anyway, because the lead vox has no drums in her
monitor.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/27/11 4:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/27/11 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
>>>> dust by now.
>>>
>>> Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I
>>> just send you a free metronome?
>>>
>>
>> I'll take the beer..... metronome ends up getting turned off half way
>> through the first verse anyway, because the lead vox has no drums in
>> her monitor.
>
> My kind of drummer!!! Just as long as me (lead guitar) and you can see each
> other from time to time.
>
I hope you're not one of those lead guys who thinks time is a magazine. :-)
What do you throw a drowning lead player?
His amp.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/27/11 4:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> I hope you're not one of those lead guys who thinks time is a
>> magazine. :-)
>
> It isn't??????? Holy shit! But - I'm an open minded player. Speak to me
> brother... Actually no - I'm one of those lead players who really syncs up
> with the drummer. Some very large percentage of my dynamics are derived
> there.
>
Maybe we'll get to jam together one day. That would be cool.
>>
>> What do you throw a drowning lead player?
>> His amp.
>
> Ohhhhhhh..... you never should have thrown that one out there. But, I'm
> going to resist. Shows how nice a guy I really am, don't it? I'm biting my
> tongue, but I'm going to be a nice guy. After all - my mom told me never to
> make fun of the handicapped...
> xis
>
I have literally heard them all. I'm on the committee.
Did you hear about the band who locked their keys in the van?
It took them 2 hours to get the bass player out.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> On 1/27/2011 2:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...
>> A case in point: I made a cutting board that's 19 inches wide from 1" x
>> 3/4" maple strips. I butt-jointed (glued with Titebond type I) maple
>> strips on each end, lengthwise against the endgrain, ...
...
>> That cutting board has been in daily use for over eight years, in a home
>> that uses forced-air heat in winter (which dries the air) and a swamp
>> cooler in summer (makes air very humid). You'd think that's about the
>> worst possible scenario for wood movement. To hear some people, those
>> end finish strips should have separated from the endgrain years ago.
>> But they haven't. Those butt jointed ends are still as tight as the
>> day I first made the board.
>
> One of the benefits of Titebond and other glues based on similar
> chemistry is that they creep. This allows you to get away with poor
> design.
And 8 years w/ occasional maintenance isn't all that long a time, yet...
They _will_ fail, eventually, and before the long-grain.
Most anything except the most egregious flaw will last a while; the
problems are long-term where fatigue plays a role. Many old caseworks
from colonial periods show similar problems that lasted quite some time,
but eventually over the years they did fail.
The currently available stuff like the dining room table, etc., in all
likelihood are constructed differently and are ok because they're
veneered over ply or mdf or similar sheetgoods; not solid construction
and if commercial in last 30 years quite likely include UV or thermoset
adhesives that are much tougher than old timey ones. And, then too,
they're not 100 yet, either--wait and see what they look like then
before rushing to judgment.
--
On 1/26/2011 1:36 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
>> style.
>
> Lots of issues.
>
> Countertop typically means kitchen. Kitchen usually means moisture.
> Moisture means wood movement. Movement means cupping at least.
Plenty of kitchens have butcher block counter tops made out of real
maple. Movement doesn't always mean cupping, for example, quarter sawn
tends to not cup, or move much across the grain.
> A 30 inch wide maple panel will change
> with by 0.42 inches with a 4% change in moisture, about the average
> range of change over a year in a house in general, a wet counter top
> likely a greater percentage.
That means a solid maple wood 15' floor will expand 2.5 inches across
the grain. I think that would be unusual, but your point is generally
accurate.
> Flat panels as countertops are just way too much trouble.
Perhaps, but the question is could a counter top be constructed out of
3/4 maple and the answer is of course. Most of the expansion will be
across the grain, and very little of that if quarter sawn wood is used.
For a counter top, that should not be much of an issue since at least
one end is free to move all it wants.
> Now you mention using particle board to keep it flat. You cannot glue
> a 30" wide panel to ply or particle which does not expand like solid
> wood. So I guess you could do screws through slots but you will come
> to find that mechanical fastners are not very well matched against the
> hydraulic pressures of mother nature.
No reason to attach the top to particle board. Attaching the top to the
cabinet sides underneath or to a torsion box might help.
There are millions of flat 30" tops made of solid wood that don't bow,
crack or warp. Basic construction techniques are needed but are
secondary to the choice of wood. By choice of wood I mean how the tree
grew, how it was cut, what the grain is like, how it was dried, how it
is finished and so on. If the wood is going to bow, cup or warp, not
much can be done about it regardless of how thick or thin the wood is.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
On 1/27/2011 4:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Mike, I agree with most everything you are saying, however you can't
really dismiss wood movement, which I understand you are NOT saying to
do that.
> I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
> 1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
> they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
> state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.
My first guess is these doors are not inset doors, but overlay doors.
Solid wood inset doors either have large gaps or will stick in the
summer, be loose in the winter.
The most common way to stop this type of door from moving too much is to
cut offset grooves in opposing faces about 80% through the door, about
1/4" apart. This gives the look of individual boards. Then you can screw
the battens (tightly) into the center of each section and the
expansion/contraction will open and close the grooves instead of the
over all door size.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
On 1/29/2011 5:00 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
> A lot of what is being said depends on the dimensional stability of the
> particular wood being used. Some woods expand much more in one direction
> than another. Other woods expand about equally in both directions. A
> glued joint in a project made from mesquite, for example, will do much
> better than the same joint made of cedar.
While true, a whole lot of it has to do with how much straight (quarter
sawn) grain is in each piece. Flat sawn wood usually has some quarter
sawn pieces and vertical grain moves (and warps) very little.
When building inset doors, I always look for quarter sawn, or vertical
grain for rails and styles.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
On 1/29/2011 2:29 AM, ed_h wrote:
> Maple true butcher block (endgrain up) counter top. Twelve years old
> and counting. Wide seasonal humidity changes. Gets wet a lot. No
> cracks.
No cracks but it is either sealed really, really good, or it moves some.
As long as their is no immovable objects trying to move other
immovable objects all is well:-)
> http://bullfire.net/Furniture/IMG_0738a.JPG
>
> Read some details, about halfway down the page:
>
> http://bullfire.net/Furniture/Furniture.html
You build some really really nice stuff, and lots of it... very good
work, Ed.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
On 1/31/11 7:08 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Morgans wrote:
>>
>>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
>>> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>>>
>>
>> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that
>> this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood
>> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
>> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning of the
>> thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood movement was
>> a mere myth.
>
> Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
>
> "I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is with
> the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not been my
> experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty of things that
> have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that have held
> together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons, no splitting, no
> angry reactions. To listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder
> just how any piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own."
>
You need a basic, grade school level, course in reading comprehension if
you actually think in the paragraph you quoted he's saying in any way
that wood movement is a myth.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/31/11 12:07 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/31/11 7:08 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see
>>>>> people saying that wood movement was mere myth.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The thread took turns here and there where some people implied that
>>>> this was the discussion at hand, but it never has been. Wood
>>>> movement has been clearly acknowledged throughout the thread. It's
>>>> easy to loose track, but take a look back from the beginning of the
>>>> thread and you'll see that no one ever stated that wood movement was
>>>> a mere myth.
>>>
>>> Seems to me you pretty much said so when you wrote...
>>>
>>> "I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it
>>> is with the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has
>>> not been my experience. At least - not to this level. I've got
>>> plenty of things that have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on
>>> over the years, that have held together just well. No extreem
>>> movement over the seasons, no splitting, no angry reactions. To
>>> listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder just how any
>>> piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
>>> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own."
>>
>> You need a basic, grade school level, course in reading comprehension
>> if you actually think in the paragraph you quoted he's saying in any
>> way that wood movement is a myth.
>
> I comprehend the written word just fine. And to be fair, I *did* find a
> post (not the one to which I was replying) where he actually said,
> "Certainly wood moves"; however, his later and flowery, "Methinks this
> notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own." implies that
> movement is a radical idea.
>
> I'm glad he acknowledges that wood moves. What I - and others - object to
> is his insinuations (see various copied posts of his below) that one can
> glue up a solid wood panel and attach it to something that confines that
> movement willy-nilly; ie, in a manner that does not allow for the movement.
>
I don't buy it. I've been following the thread and you essentially have
a guy who says, "there is wood movement, but many people take it way too
seriously" and another camp that says, "you think wood movement is a
myth."
The latter camp now is trying to color the former a fool by putting
words in his mouth.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/31/2011 12:53 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
>> Plenty of kitchens have butcher block counter tops made out of real
>> maple. Movement doesn't always mean cupping, for example, quarter sawn
>> tends to not cup, or move much across the grain.
> Yes but this yahoo wants to build it not as butcher block but as flat
> panels.
I think this is where Mike is detecting some exaggerated perceptions.
Yes, solid wood moves, cups, warps and all that, yet and still, plenty
of tops are made out of flat boards, and for most of history, that was
all there was. The main thing is choosing the correct grain patterns and
assembly techniques. Someone posted a link to a Roy Underwood Side table:
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html
and if you watched it, you'll see the top is 1" thick 32" wide flat
boards glued up with breadboard ends. Counter tops are generally 24"
wide or less, and have even more support under them than his side table.
It takes a lot of knowledge to pick out the right wood as well as some
luck to avoid problems, but most woodworkers have successfully glued up
wide panels. Naturally problems often arise, thus un-natural solutions
have been developed to solve, but still not uncommon to see wide, solid
wood tops with no problems.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
>
> LOL ... actually, first thing that came to mind is who in hell would allow
> someone lacking in such basic woodworking knowledge to build a birdcage,
> much less "raised panel" anythings in a kitchen and its peninsula?
I knew it was a factor and left some room for movement. Problem is, I did
not realize how much would be needed for the extreme environmental change of
leaving cabinets in a house closed up all summer with no AC or even some
windows open. I wonder how hot it got in that house, on some of those days.
Way back then, I was more of a framing carpenter, did ok with trim, but had
done very little cabinet or furniture work. I enjoy learning new skills,
though. I now also am a competent welder, and can run a few basic things on
a engine head lathe. Push comes to shove, and I can even run a sewing
machine.
> Perhaps the comments in this thread of those who "... chose to only
> believe what they want.." are just other examples of something else that
> you also "... did not fully understand.".
>
> I've yet to see anyone in this thread claim wood movement was not an
> important factor/design consideration.
You must have a couple people in your kill file, if you did not see people
saying that wood movement was mere myth.
> Maybe I missed a post, but I'd be interested in seeing who said that ...
You missed, then.
--
Jim in NC
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jan 26, 2:11 pm, mkr5000 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well of course I would seal the surface well and use biscuits
> liberally on the edges. As for the particle board, it wouldn't be
> seen
> but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
> like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple
> from
> underneath for added strength and stability. ?
>
> I like the idea of using flooring, may look into that or at least
> try
> a sample section.
I guess you won't listen to the many reasonable reasons why this isn't
done. You did ask "Why not?" and it was clearly explained. Good luck.
SP:
As Google posts are only visible to me by replies, I ask your
indulgence for tagging on to yours.
This OP was just on rcm asking about fabricating various
varieties of something industrial like an "aluminum countertop".
First there was talk of a sheet. Then, maybe, directly butted aluminum
tiles. An interjection on the importance of grout and expansion joints
was raised without any insightful acknowledgement reaching my eyes.
But, again, the full Google feed doesn't land on the doorstep.
Someone mentioned concrete.. .the existence of books
directly relevant to his need and the distinctive problems endemic
to a countertop environment. "Concrete" became the new word
and he was off. Apparently, the windsock caught a woodchip.
I don't mean to be unkind to the OP but in his place, I would
consult written sources on topic (try ("countetop* OR "countertop
materials") and, yes, read them for a foundation that will result in
any remaining questions being a thoughtful and appropriate use
of the kind favor of time and intelligence solicited from others who
may not even win the wages of direct thanks.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey
"mkr5000" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
> glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
> well?
>
> Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
> to 30" or so.
>
> I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
> bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
> the old fashioned laminate tops.
>
> Why not?
>
> I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
> style.
I think it would deform quickly from alternate cycles of moisture/drying,
absorption of oils, natural warpage, temperatures, etc.
Steve