Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in
from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make
a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
Deb
Swingman wrote:
> "Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
>
>
>>O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still
>>slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the
>>bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you?
>
>
> Nope ... the drawer back, while flush with the drawer sides at the top, only
> extends down to the top of the groove that holds the drawer bottom. (IOW,
> there is no groove in the drawer back).
>
> This allows you to slide the drawer bottom in from the back, then use
> fasteners to attach the drawer bottom to the bottom edge of the drawer back.
>
> ... a classic drawer construction technique that has stood the test of time
> for at least a couple of reasons:
>
> By sliding the drawer bottom snug to the groove in the drawer front, then
> fastening it to the underside of the drawer back with mechanical fasteners
> (no glue, or spot gluing to allow for side to side expansion in a solid wood
> bottom), you have made the drawer assembly a bit more resistant to racking
> by effectively uniting the drawer back and drawer front into a more solid
> unit, and in a direction that is not normally prone to wood expansion to any
> detrimental degree.
>
> And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer just
> because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the
> method and consider it for future drawers.
>
As long as the bottom isn't glued in, I don't see
the problem in changing a bottom even if it is
captured. You just rip the back on your table saw
at the top of the bottom (top of the dado) and
pull that thin strip out (which makes the drawer a
standard non-captured bottom). Except you have
a saw cut in each side at the back, which no one
will ever see. And if you want to do extra and
work you won't even have that cut.
I use a slightly different method. I do what Norm does, just slide it
in on three sides, but the drawer back I trim the height equivalent to
distance between the drawer bottom and top of the drawer. Then after
sliding the drawer bottom in, I screw up from under the drawer bottom
into the drawer back.
This gives the stronger construction aspect that you're talking about
while also permitting the option at any time of removing the screws and
sliding the drawer bottom out.
Toller wrote:
<<I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone
wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more
finished.
Looks like we are a minority.<<
I think the consideration is what the drawer is fitted in. I repair a
lot of kitchen drawers that are beat up pretty badly as they are
overloaded with silverware, utensils, and some even put plates, etc. in
them. The bottoms will bulge out until the drawer bottoms sag so much
they fall out of the groove, or the drawer will not close easily, which
results in the famous female "hip check" to make sure it does. I have
also found that people put leaky things in them such as lamp oil, glue,
solvent base cleaners, and all manner of other liquids. So replacing a
drawer bottom is a good thing for them.
On the other hand, if it is the prized family heirloom Federal style
highboy, probably enough care is taken in its use to ensure that the
drawers are not abused.
Robert
Stephen M wrote:
> "Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
> in
> > from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
> > four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>
> You mean groove, not rabbet, right?
>
> If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for expansion
> and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to move and
> should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary. Brads are actually
> pretty forgiving in this respect.
>
> If the bottom is plywood, I would capture it on all four sides and glue it
> in place using the plywood to add structural strength to the drawer. IMNSHO
> this is one applpication where plywood is superior to solid wood.
>
> _Steve
If it "has to be that way" why do frame and panel doors work OK? :)
I think it only done this way as a carry over from the days before
plywood was available. It is pretty rare to see an old drawer with it's
original solid wood bottom that is NOT cracked. Leaving the back open
just makes it easier to replace or R&R. One other reason might be
simply to make construction easier, though I typically dado all for
sides and have neaver had any trouble with assembly.
Larry W
Ivan Vegvary wrote:
> Sometimes things get spilled in a drawer that never dries or have a
> bad
>> odor. Or the bottom gets broken. Doing it norms way enables you to
>> replace the bottom easily.
>>
> O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you
> still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to
> replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases.
> Don't you?
>
No you don't. The back is not grooved, it stops at the top of the side
grooves. The bottom overlaps the bottom of the back and is attached
with one or two screws, depending on drawer width.
To remove the bottom, just undo the screws and slide it out.
P.S. Note I changed "rabbet" to "groove". A rabbet is along the edge
of a piece. A groove (with the grain) or a dado (across the grain) is
within a piece.
--
It's turtles, all the way down
"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
> in
> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>
> Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would
> make
> a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
>
> Deb
>
>
Sometimes things get spilled in a drawer that never dries or have a bad
odor. Or the bottom gets broken. Doing it norms way enables you to replace
the bottom easily.
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
> > And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer
just
> > because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the
> > method and consider it for future drawers.
> >
> As long as the bottom isn't glued in, I don't see
> the problem in changing a bottom even if it is
> captured. You just rip the back on your table saw
> at the top of the bottom (top of the dado) and
> pull that thin strip out (which makes the drawer a
> standard non-captured bottom). Except you have
> a saw cut in each side at the back, which no one
> will ever see. And if you want to do extra and
> work you won't even have that cut.
That "no one will ever see" was another reason for circumventing that
possibility and making the drawer bottom easy to replace in the first place.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:41:06 -0600, "Dr. Deb" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>My preferred way is to rabbit all
>four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
OK, I suppose, so long as it fits to a hare's breath.
>Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make
>a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
Stronger which way? There are no strenuous forces pushing it back and
forth, and it is well enough supported vertically in either case, even
if one method might be measureably slightly stronger than another.
There would have to be some considerable effort to deform the back of
the drawer to prove a point, and tha simply doesn't occur naturally.
There are other more important considerations such as replacement,
which has been mentioned.
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:12:11 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> If you need to replace the
>bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you?
No. The back can be narrower in depth than the front [false or not]
by the amount necessary to slide the bottom in and out. The bottom is
supported by the rabbet on the front and sides. That is sufficient
for normal abuse. So, the bottom can slide under the back portion for
insertion or extraction. It can then be tacked to that back portion
if the fit is near as dammit is to swearing.
"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
> in
> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>
> Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would
> make
> a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
>
I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone
wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished.
Looks like we are a minority.
"Dr. Deb" wrote in message
> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
in
> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>
> Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would
make
> a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
The ability to easily replace a part that is often the most abused, without
destroying the unit, is a prudent design consideration.
IME, the "slide in" method makes for a stronger drawer as there is arguably
more resistance to racking forces, due to the mechanical fastening of the
drawer bottom to the back, than you get with a "floating" drawer bottom
captured in a groove.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
Jim Wilson wrote:
> James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote...
>
>>Whoops! Replace Rabbit with "Dado".....where's that cup of coffee?
>
>
> Ok, these are nits to be picking, but technically (and since you seem to
> be well-humored :-)...
>
> (1) It's "rabbet," not "rabbit."
>
> (2) Dadoing is cutting a groove across the grain. Cutting a groove with
> the grain is ploughing. OTOH, I suppose the distinction could be
> considered archaic if the work is done with power tools.
>
> Jim
What does Norm use? "dado" (you seem to be well-humored, too)
Dave
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote...
> Whoops! Replace Rabbit with "Dado".....where's that cup of coffee?
Ok, these are nits to be picking, but technically (and since you seem to
be well-humored :-)...
(1) It's "rabbet," not "rabbit."
(2) Dadoing is cutting a groove across the grain. Cutting a groove with
the grain is ploughing. OTOH, I suppose the distinction could be
considered archaic if the work is done with power tools.
Jim
Toller wrote...
> I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone
> wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished.
> Looks like we are a minority.
I groove all four sides, too, for the same reasons you mention. I figure
that if you ever really had to remove a bottom, you could always plough a
groove through the back (down to the drawer-bottom groove) and slide the
bottom out that way. But I've never needed to.
Incidentally, I don't use fasteners in drawer-boxes. (I do use them to
secure false fronts). I only mention this in case someone does use a brad
or two ("to hold it in place while the glue dries" :-), that they would
need to exercise some care in ploughing (plowing) the groove to release
the bottom.
Jim
Do I get a point deduction for excessive use of parentheses? (G)
I know that I missed a" one heck of a "whing ding" I hope to one day
participate in your world famous get together.
This year we had way too much going on. But maybe next year with a little
more warning.
Leon
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
>
>> O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you
>> still
>> slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the
>> bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you?
>
> Nope ... the drawer back, while flush with the drawer sides at the top,
> only
> extends down to the top of the groove that holds the drawer bottom. (IOW,
> there is no groove in the drawer back).
>
> This allows you to slide the drawer bottom in from the back, then use
> fasteners to attach the drawer bottom to the bottom edge of the drawer
> back.
>
> ... a classic drawer construction technique that has stood the test of
> time
> for at least a couple of reasons:
>
> By sliding the drawer bottom snug to the groove in the drawer front, then
> fastening it to the underside of the drawer back with mechanical fasteners
> (no glue, or spot gluing to allow for side to side expansion in a solid
> wood
> bottom), you have made the drawer assembly a bit more resistant to racking
> by effectively uniting the drawer back and drawer front into a more solid
> unit, and in a direction that is not normally prone to wood expansion to
> any
> detrimental degree.
>
> And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer
> just
> because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the
> method and consider it for future drawers.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 12/13/05
>
>
"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
> O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still
> slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the
> bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you?
Nope ... the drawer back, while flush with the drawer sides at the top, only
extends down to the top of the groove that holds the drawer bottom. (IOW,
there is no groove in the drawer back).
This allows you to slide the drawer bottom in from the back, then use
fasteners to attach the drawer bottom to the bottom edge of the drawer back.
... a classic drawer construction technique that has stood the test of time
for at least a couple of reasons:
By sliding the drawer bottom snug to the groove in the drawer front, then
fastening it to the underside of the drawer back with mechanical fasteners
(no glue, or spot gluing to allow for side to side expansion in a solid wood
bottom), you have made the drawer assembly a bit more resistant to racking
by effectively uniting the drawer back and drawer front into a more solid
unit, and in a direction that is not normally prone to wood expansion to any
detrimental degree.
And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer just
because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the
method and consider it for future drawers.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
"C & S" wrote in message
> > > If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for
> expansion
> > > and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to
move
> and
> > > should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary.
> > I think it only done this way as a carry over from the days before
> > plywood was available.
>
> I'll buy that.
>
> -Steve
Actually, the method of drawer making in question was devised to allow for
ease of replacement of a drawer bottom and has little to do with
expansion/contraction of wood.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
[email protected] wrote:
> Toller wrote:
>
> <<I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone
>
> wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more
> finished.
> Looks like we are a minority.<<
>
> I think the consideration is what the drawer is fitted in. I repair a
> lot of kitchen drawers that are beat up pretty badly as they are
> overloaded with silverware, utensils, and some even put plates, etc. in
> them. The bottoms will bulge out until the drawer bottoms sag so much
> they fall out of the groove, or the drawer will not close easily, which
> results in the famous female "hip check" to make sure it does. I have
> also found that people put leaky things in them such as lamp oil, glue,
> solvent base cleaners, and all manner of other liquids. So replacing a
> drawer bottom is a good thing for them.
>
> On the other hand, if it is the prized family heirloom Federal style
> highboy, probably enough care is taken in its use to ensure that the
> drawers are not abused.
>
> Robert
>
I guess spills happen, but there is no way the
bottoms of my drawer will bulge unless you take
the drawer out, lay it on the floor, and jump on
the bottom. If the bottoms had been made of 1/4"
stuff and glued in, you wouldn't have nearly as
much work.
Dr. Deb wrote:
> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in
> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>
> Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make
> a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
>
> Deb
>
>
Totally enclosed is stronger, makes the box
stiffer, is slightly more difficult to assemble,
but makes squaring the box easier. OTOH, it makes
it somewhat more difficult to change the bottom,
if needed.
I always make my bottoms totally enclosed because
I won't be able to change the bottom anyway; I
glue the bottom in. I don't worry about wood
movement because I use plywood for the sides and
the rear, and the bottom is of Masonite or
plywood. I have never had a problem with drawers
due to wood movement, but I also live in a fairly
dry climate. If you use solid wood for those parts
you would be asking for trouble if glued in.
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:41:06 -0600, "Dr. Deb" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in
>from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
>four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>
>Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make
>a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
I laminated all my plywood drawer bottoms (and shelves), doubt they'll
wear or break first. Enclosed all 4 sides and glued.
--------------------
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
[email protected] chopping out the mortise.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
WW'ing since 1985
LV Cust #4114
Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!
"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
in
> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
You mean groove, not rabbet, right?
If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for expansion
and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to move and
should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary. Brads are actually
pretty forgiving in this respect.
If the bottom is plywood, I would capture it on all four sides and glue it
in place using the plywood to add structural strength to the drawer. IMNSHO
this is one applpication where plywood is superior to solid wood.
_Steve
> > If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for
expansion
> > and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to move
and
> > should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary. Brads are
actually
> > pretty forgiving in this respect.
> >
> > If the bottom is plywood, I would capture it on all four sides and glue
it
> > in place using the plywood to add structural strength to the drawer.
IMNSHO
> > this is one applpication where plywood is superior to solid wood.
> >
> > _Steve
>
> If it "has to be that way" why do frame and panel doors work OK? :)
With a F&P door you will have typically 2 inches or so into which you can
oversize your groove by 1/8" to accomodate expansion. In a 1/2" thick
drawer, there isn't a whole lot left after you subtract for the groove and
the expansion allowance.
> I think it only done this way as a carry over from the days before
> plywood was available.
I'll buy that.
-Steve
> (1) It's "rabbet," not "rabbit."
>
> (2) Dadoing is cutting a groove across the grain. Cutting a groove with
> the grain is ploughing. OTOH, I suppose the distinction could be
> considered archaic if the work is done with power tools.
As long as we are being pedantic (and I love to be pedantic).....
In that case the verb would be "plough", but the object of that verb (the
noun) would be "groove".
Right?
This is confusing because "dado", at least in the modern WW vernacular, is
both a noun and verb.
-Steve
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:31:45 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
>> in
>> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
>> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>>
>> Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would
>> make
>> a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
>>
>I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone
>wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished.
>Looks like we are a minority.
>
I'm with you two. Seems like if there is sufficient abuse to break the
drawer bottom, you are also going to see sufficient force applied in the
use of the drawer to make the brads pull loose and deform the bottom such
that stuff falls out the back of the drawer.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Toller wrote:
>
> <<I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone
>
> wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more
> finished.
> Looks like we are a minority.<<
>
> I think the consideration is what the drawer is fitted in. I repair a
> lot of kitchen drawers that are beat up pretty badly as they are
> overloaded with silverware, utensils, and some even put plates, etc. in
> them. The bottoms will bulge out until the drawer bottoms sag so much
> they fall out of the groove, or the drawer will not close easily, which
> results in the famous female "hip check" to make sure it does. I have
> also found that people put leaky things in them such as lamp oil, glue,
> solvent base cleaners, and all manner of other liquids. So replacing a
> drawer bottom is a good thing for them.
>
> On the other hand, if it is the prized family heirloom Federal style
> highboy, probably enough care is taken in its use to ensure that the
> drawers are not abused.
>
You are right. I just assumed we were talking about fine furniture.
"Ivan Vegvary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:v%ctf.40$0c.20@trnddc07...
>
> O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still
> slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the
> bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you?
>
> Thanks for all clarifications.
>
No. Rabbit the two sides and front. Raise the blade up (assuming table
saw here) and run the back through so it literally cuts all the way through
right where the rabbit is on the other pieces. Assemble the pieces, slide
the bottom in and attach the back of the bottom to the underside of the
drawer back. Make sense? Probably not. Perhaps someone else can come
through and explain it better.
Cheers,
cc
I like the "Norm" method because it provides a quick and easy way to square
the drawer. Because you attach the bottom with brads along the back, you
can use a square to true up the box as you put in the brads.
"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
> in
> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all
> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>
> Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would
> make
> a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
>
> Deb
>
>
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ivan Vegvary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:v%ctf.40$0c.20@trnddc07...
>>
>> O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you
>> still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace
>> the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you?
>>
>> Thanks for all clarifications.
>>
>
> No. Rabbit the two sides and front. Raise the blade up (assuming
> table saw here) and run the back through so it literally cuts all the way
> through right where the rabbit is on the other pieces. Assemble the
> pieces, slide the bottom in and attach the back of the bottom to the
> underside of the drawer back. Make sense? Probably not. Perhaps
> someone else can come through and explain it better.
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
Whoops! Replace Rabbit with "Dado".....where's that cup of coffee?
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel
>> in
>> from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit
>> all
>> four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel.
>>
>> Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would
>> make
>> a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes.
>>
>> Deb
>>
>>
>
> Sometimes things get spilled in a drawer that never dries or have a bad
> odor. Or the bottom gets broken. Doing it norms way enables you to
> replace the bottom easily.
>
O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still
slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the
bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you?
Thanks for all clarifications.