A jointer saga part II

http://www.sears.com/

Click on "About us".
See the bottom of the page on the 'Copyright' line.

"Satisfaction guaranteed or your money refunded."

Simply take back the whole item......

--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> For all of you who may have missed the original post, an overview: I
> purchased an extra set of knives for my 20 yo Craftsman jointer
> (113.20650). While the originals were being sharpened, I installed the
> new set, turned on the jointer, and ran a piece of scrap through it.
> One of the knives came out, tore up the cutter head and ended up in the
> chip collector. Bleep says I and orders another set thinking that I had
> not cleaned the new knives well enough, or had not set the screws in the
> wedges well enough, or...
>
> Cleaned and installed these, turned on the machine, and two blades came
> out hitting the guard, taking a chunk out of the infeed table, scoring
> the underside of the outfeed table, and messing up the cutter head
> again. I measured the knives and discovered that they vary in thickness
> up to .008" from one end of a blade to the other. Width and length also
> vary. I wrote to Sears explaining the situation and asking for repairs
> to the jointer or a new jointer. They replied by refunding the cost of
> the two sets of knives and two wedge screws (bent by impact). I wrote
> back offering pictures of the damage and testimony/affidavits from LOML
> and neighbor as to its condition prior to the incident. Following is
> the letter I received in return.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> I have requested that a credit is issued in the full amount of $71.48.
> Thank you for the information provided to us, so that we may assist you
> with your situation.
>
>
> I realize that our decision may be disheartening, and I apologize that
> we are not able to fulfill your request for a new jointer at our cost.
> You may contact your store to see if they are able to assist with
> repairs at a lesser cost than a new replacement jointer, or we will
> gladly take 10% off of any future price on a jointer of your choice. If
> you do choose to take advantage of the 10% I have approved, please
> contact Sears.com to place the order, and refer the customer service
> representative to your previous Sears.com order, seax-004642034-seaz. I
> have notated the order so that the rep will fulfill the requested 10%
> off. I appreciate your willingness to provide further documentation and
> witnessed, but we still would not be able to accurately verify prior
> performance or proper handling of the tool during replacement. If we had
> damaged the tool during blade replacement, then a new model may
> certainly be an option.
>
> I am sorry that we have not fulfilled all of your request. You are
> valued as a customer.
> Thanks,
> Brian Boka
> Sears Product Support & E-mail
> Customer Direct Team Manager
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> I wrote again offering to repair it myself if they would supply the
> infeed table and cutter assembly parts:
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mr. Boka,
>
> I now have $71.48, no extra set of knives, and a jointer broken by your
> defective parts. I am not about to buy a replacement from Sears if this
> is how you stand behind your products. I returned the knives. Did you
> even measure the thickness? If so, you would see that no matter my
> replacement technique, the knives would not have stayed in place.
>
> I had hoped to make this right by dint of a dose in integrity, mine and
> Sears. There is also a chip out of the outfeed table, but it is
> underneath. Thus, if you will not replace the jointer, replacing the
> infeed table and the cutter assembly will be acceptable. I will bolt
> the new parts in place and return to old to you. Or I will consent to
> taking the jointer to a facility of your choosing for repair by you. I
> will be happy to return the damaged parts if you want them.
>
> ... [some stuff about courts and the wRECk snipped]
>
> If I am truly valued as a customer, at least meet me half way.
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Somehow, I doubt my value at this point. Will keep you all posted.
> mahalo,
> jo4hn
>

Sure does. But did you forget they appealed and won ? The woman got =
nothing but a judgment to pay McD's legal bill's.
Puff

"js" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> yeah. maybe. but they are cheap. dont pay unless you win.
>=20
> Big companies have been successfully sued before by em... Hot coffee =
at Mc
> Donalds ring a bell?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "mttt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "js" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah. I would think one of those injury lawyer types would be =
interested
> > in
> > > hearing about improperly made knives that have the potential to
> seriously
> >
> > One of those 'graduated last in his class from a 3rd rate law =
school'
> types
> > taking on Sears? Sheesh - Sears likely has scores in house, and =
scores
> more
> > on retainer.
> >
> > It would be a suicide run...
> > Amusing, but suicide.
> >
> >
>=20
>

[email protected] (Mutt) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> From at least one lawyer's perspective (i.e., mine), here's the issue:
> John orders parts from Sears with part number, which they stock, for
> the machine at issue. John installs part, part is not to spec, part
> damages machine.

IANAL but I have spent time with them on this type of issue.

If I were the Sears house lawyer I would be saying Thank #(*@#(*
that we are not talking personal injury here.

The case may well be arguable, it could well have been faulty
installation at fault. But unless we are talking a $1200 jointer
there is no way it is going to be worth arguing over.

Sear's attitude would make sense if there was a likelihood of
lots of similar claims. But this is a no brainer settler.


Phill

Sue the bastuds! Caveat: Remember free legal advice is worth what
you pay for it, but I'd file a small claims complaint; they'll have to
hire a lawyer, it'll cost them plenty, and you will likely get a
default judgment against them for the price of a new jointer. Then
you send a sheriff down to the local Sears store and levy on the cash
in the registers!


jo4hn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> For all of you who may have missed the original post, an overview: I
> purchased an extra set of knives for my 20 yo Craftsman jointer
> (113.20650). While the originals were being sharpened, I installed the
> new set, turned on the jointer, and ran a piece of scrap through it.
> One of the knives came out, tore up the cutter head and ended up in the
> chip collector. Bleep says I and orders another set thinking that I had
> not cleaned the new knives well enough, or had not set the screws in the
> wedges well enough, or...
>
> Cleaned and installed these, turned on the machine, and two blades came
> out hitting the guard, taking a chunk out of the infeed table, scoring
> the underside of the outfeed table, and messing up the cutter head
> again. I measured the knives and discovered that they vary in thickness
> up to .008" from one end of a blade to the other. Width and length also
> vary. I wrote to Sears explaining the situation and asking for repairs
> to the jointer or a new jointer. They replied by refunding the cost of
> the two sets of knives and two wedge screws (bent by impact). I wrote
> back offering pictures of the damage and testimony/affidavits from LOML
> and neighbor as to its condition prior to the incident. Following is
> the letter I received in return.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> I have requested that a credit is issued in the full amount of $71.48.
> Thank you for the information provided to us, so that we may assist you
> with your situation.
>
>
> I realize that our decision may be disheartening, and I apologize that
> we are not able to fulfill your request for a new jointer at our cost.
> You may contact your store to see if they are able to assist with
> repairs at a lesser cost than a new replacement jointer, or we will
> gladly take 10% off of any future price on a jointer of your choice. If
> you do choose to take advantage of the 10% I have approved, please
> contact Sears.com to place the order, and refer the customer service
> representative to your previous Sears.com order, seax-004642034-seaz. I
> have notated the order so that the rep will fulfill the requested 10%
> off. I appreciate your willingness to provide further documentation and
> witnessed, but we still would not be able to accurately verify prior
> performance or proper handling of the tool during replacement. If we had
> damaged the tool during blade replacement, then a new model may
> certainly be an option.
>
> I am sorry that we have not fulfilled all of your request. You are
> valued as a customer.
> Thanks,
> Brian Boka
> Sears Product Support & E-mail
> Customer Direct Team Manager
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> I wrote again offering to repair it myself if they would supply the
> infeed table and cutter assembly parts:
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mr. Boka,
>
> I now have $71.48, no extra set of knives, and a jointer broken by your
> defective parts. I am not about to buy a replacement from Sears if this
> is how you stand behind your products. I returned the knives. Did you
> even measure the thickness? If so, you would see that no matter my
> replacement technique, the knives would not have stayed in place.
>
> I had hoped to make this right by dint of a dose in integrity, mine and
> Sears. There is also a chip out of the outfeed table, but it is
> underneath. Thus, if you will not replace the jointer, replacing the
> infeed table and the cutter assembly will be acceptable. I will bolt
> the new parts in place and return to old to you. Or I will consent to
> taking the jointer to a facility of your choosing for repair by you. I
> will be happy to return the damaged parts if you want them.
>
> ... [some stuff about courts and the wRECk snipped]
>
> If I am truly valued as a customer, at least meet me half way.
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Somehow, I doubt my value at this point. Will keep you all posted.
> mahalo,
> jo4hn

From at least one lawyer's perspective (i.e., mine), here's the issue:
John orders parts from Sears with part number, which they stock, for
the machine at issue. John installs part, part is not to spec, part
damages machine. Semi-reasonable inquiry (in the context of
negotiation, you want to lead with a strong demand, but everybody
knows you will settle for less)on how to make it right by John. Sears
admits replacement parts to put the machine back where it was before
the blades damaged machine are in stock, but that they list for almost
what a new machine is worth. Offer: 10% off a new machine.

Now, what we are talking about is proximate cause, or in other words,
who did what that caused the damage to the machine. If the blade spec
was indeed off, that to me would do it, as from what I understand the
blades were thrown from the spinning cutterhead, and that caused the
damage. Next, what is the remedy. Generally speaking, its to put the
damaged party back in the same condition he or she was prior to the
incident. In this case, replacement of the damaged parts. The fact
that the machine is 33 years old is not particularly relevant; prior
to the incident, it was servicable and did its job well. While the
value of a 33 year old machine has relevance to the settlement value,
I think that the cost of repair is recoverable notwithstanding the age
of the machine. The old auto insurance analogy, i.e., the car is old,
book value is $x and cost of repair $x+$y and therefore the care is
"totaled" for $x book value is a creature of the insurance contract,
not products liability tort (negligence)law.

My view is that John should file a small claims complaint against
Sears in his local courts. Go down to the court clerk, they are
helpful, have forms, and it does not cost all that much. He has
admissions (i.e., statements in email writings) that Sears has the
parts he needs to properly repair the machine, he can prove that the
blades did not meet spec (his testimony is indeed evidential proof, he
does not need the blades themselves, although he can demand Sears
produce them for the hearing), and that Sears sold him the blades
Sears said would fit his particular machine. Any Judge who has any
balls (especially if the Judges in your state are elected - they'll
stand up for the little guy on things like this) will agree Sears must
pay for the repair costs, notwithstanding the age of the machine or
its current market value, and are generally sympathetic to the average
Joe who gets the short end of the stick from a large corporation.
Now, on a practical note, after you file the small claims complaint,
serve it on the Sears Headquarters by certified mail (mail service of
complaints are generally allowed), and by the time they figure out WTF
is going on and forward it to their internal lawyers, etc., the
initial time for Sears to file an answering pleading in your local
court may have past, and if you are on your toes you can get a
"default" judgment, ie, a judgment granted by Sear's failure to file
an answering pleading. Then Sears has to hire lawyers, which cost a
lot more than $300, to "vacate" the judgment; alternatively, they file
an answer, and again have to hire lawyers, etc.

I think the guy at Sears is trying to be a hero and save the company
money by offering a 10% discount, which IMHO is bull###t. He knows
better, and likely there is internal email somewhere in Sears saying
"thank god there is no personal injury here, let's just grinF**k this
guy and he will go away." Typical "loss management" behavior that I
see all the time. So if they want to take the cheap way out of this,
well, I say screw 'em, sue the bastuds, as John is left with an
unusable jointer simply because they sent him the wrong blades, and
that's not right. Instead of doing the right thing for the customer,
he tried to save a few bucks at John's expense. Make them pay.

Now, if you really want to get nasty, in most states there is a
consumer fraud statute, and if you can prove that Sears knew, or
should have known that the blades were off spec, you can get treble
damages. All you have to do is send them a demand for production of
documents as to all prior orders of this part, any complaints they
have gotten, and whether any were returned because they did not fit.
If you get lucky, then you collect $900, and then you go out an buy an
nice 8" Grizzly jointer for your trouble.


> The planer was not the problem. The blades were. The blades were 0
> years old. The 33 year old planer is irrelevant to the issue.
>
> If the OP had installed the same *DEFECTIVE* blades on a shiny new
> 0-year-old planer, they would have spun out and possibly injured someone.
>
> I say it's a good analogy.
>
> - Daniel

Bay Area Dave wrote:
> BAAAAD analogy Doug.
>
> Gas isn't something that you can scrutinize like a blade. He should have
> noticed the problem when assembling it. Besides, 33 years for a piece of
> equipment is long enough to have gotten his money's worth. He should
> quit being a whining tightwad and rush out and buy a new toy! :)

BAD,

The planer was not the problem. The blades were. The blades were 0
years old. The 33 year old planer is irrelevant to the issue.

If the OP had installed the same *DEFECTIVE* blades on a shiny new
0-year-old planer, they would have spun out and possibly injured someone.

I say it's a good analogy.

- Daniel

Lawyers would want the data that .008" variation would be causal. Was
a torque wrench used and recorded in seating the knives, maybe motor
bearings were the cause


jo4hn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Marc wrote:
> > If you put this model number into the sears parts website you can
> > clearly see that it was built in 1971 on the diagram. It also looks
> > like a reletively small one, deffinitely not industrial. That thing
> > is 30 years old, not only that but Sears was willing to give you a
> > discount on the new one and they gave you back your money that you
> > spent on knifes that you damaged. Tools age just like people and
> > don't work as well when they get older. Sounds to me like they went
> > out of their way to help you out. I know from first hand experience
> > that no other retailer would even talk to you on a 30 year old
> > product, IE Menards or Home Depot. Stop complaining and be happy that
> > your tool actually lasted that long.
>
> The knives did not have a uniform thickness from one end to the other
> (off by as much as .008" IIRC). This means that the wedges were not
> seated properly at the same distance from the center of rotation from
> one end to the other. This means that the center of mass of the rapidly
> rotating mess is not congruent with the center of rotation. Hence it
> vibrates enough to move the knives and let them fly out. Could'a been a
> big owie so I'm not complaining about that. Quality control is another
> thing.
>
> Oh and one I think does not expect this sort of damage to a lump of cast
> iron after only 30 years. More likely to give up are motors and
> bearings, stuff that moves.
>
> I got another letter from Sears just now explaining that I am stupid. I
> will send this along in another post. I am happy that they cleared that
> up for me.
> grumble,
> jo4hn

Was meant to point out that big companies can be beat. But spilling coffee
on oneself, and having pieces of metal flying around the room, are two
pretty different things. I submit that a judge would think the latter would
be a bit more serious.

ecspecially since he told them something was wrong, and was ignored.


And from what I can see, the award was reduced, and the parties entered into
a secret settlement, not that it was thrown out. The judge called Mc Donalds
conduct reckless, callous, and willful.

read it yourself here.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm





"Puff Griffis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sure does. But did you forget they appealed and won ? The woman got nothing
but a judgment to pay McD's legal bill's.
Puff

"js" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> yeah. maybe. but they are cheap. dont pay unless you win.
>
> Big companies have been successfully sued before by em... Hot coffee at Mc
> Donalds ring a bell?
>
>
>
> "mttt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "js" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah. I would think one of those injury lawyer types would be
interested
> > in
> > > hearing about improperly made knives that have the potential to
> seriously
> >
> > One of those 'graduated last in his class from a 3rd rate law school'
> types
> > taking on Sears? Sheesh - Sears likely has scores in house, and scores
> more
> > on retainer.
> >
> > It would be a suicide run...
> > Amusing, but suicide.
> >
> >
>
>

Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

>
>
> The case may well be arguable, it could well have been faulty
> installation at fault.


If he still has undamaged blades in his possession that have the 0.008 variance,
something not commonly checked for (I'll be checking from now on), faulty
installation procedure becomes secondary, I would think, especially if he had
installed blades without incident prior to this.


> But unless we are talking a $1200 jointer
> there is no way it is going to be worth arguing over.
>


Anythings worth arguing over.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Marc) wrote:
>If you put this model number into the sears parts website you can
>clearly see that it was built in 1971 on the diagram. It also looks
>like a reletively small one, deffinitely not industrial. That thing
>is 30 years old, not only that but Sears was willing to give you a
>discount on the new one and they gave you back your money that you
>spent on knifes that you damaged. Tools age just like people and
>don't work as well when they get older.

That wasn't the point at all. The guy's problem was that the replacement
knives that Sears sold were defective, and the defective knives damaged the
machine. He's not complaining about the jointer wearing out, for Pete's sake,
he's griping that it was destroyed by defective replacement parts.

> Sounds to me like they went
>out of their way to help you out.

Sure doesn't sound like it to _me_.

> I know from first hand experience
>that no other retailer would even talk to you on a 30 year old
>product, IE Menards or Home Depot. Stop complaining and be happy that
>your tool actually lasted that long.

You've totally missed the point...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

Uhhuh. and how often do you get out a micrometer and measure new blades
before you put them in the jointer? Or are your eyes good enough to notice a
variance of 0.008 of an inch over 6 inches?

Dougs analogy was spot on.



"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> BAAAAD analogy Doug.
>
> Gas isn't something that you can scrutinize like a blade.
> He should have noticed the problem when assembling it.
> Besides, 33 years for a piece of equipment is long enough to
> have gotten his money's worth. He should quit being a
> whining tightwad and rush out and buy a new toy! :)
>
> If the equipment was 6 months old, and he took it in to a
> repair station and they installed the wrong parts and handed
> it back to him in a dangerous condition, then for sure they
> are responsible. With the facts as the OP stated, I
> maintain HE is responsible to some extent. You can't turn a
> blind eye when installing parts for any fast rotating
> equipment, be it from Sears, Delta or blah blah blah.
>
> dave
>
> Doug Miller wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, Bay Area
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>isn't there any culpability on the part of the person
> >>installing the wrong parts???
> >
> >
> > Suppose you go to the corner gas station and fill up your car -- but
> > unbeknownst to you, the guy that delivers the fuel screwed up and put
diesel
> > in the underground tank instead of regular unleaded. And it damages your
> > engine. Are you at fault for pumping the wrong stuff in your gas tank?
> >
> >
> >>Is Sears 100% fault for
> >>providing the guy what they thought would fit his 33 year
> >>old equipment? gimmie a break!
> >
> >
> > The problem, as I read it, was that the replacement parts were machined
to
> > such sloppy tolerances as would virtually guarantee a problem of some
sort. So
> > cast your question another way: Is Sears 100% at fault for providing the
guy
> > with poorly machined jointer knives? Absolutely.
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
> >
> > For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
> > send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
> >
> >
>

isn't there any culpability on the part of the person
installing the wrong parts??? Is Sears 100% fault for
providing the guy what they thought would fit his 33 year
old equipment? gimmie a break!

dave

Doug Miller wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Marc) wrote:
>
>>If you put this model number into the sears parts website you can
>>clearly see that it was built in 1971 on the diagram. It also looks
>>like a reletively small one, deffinitely not industrial. That thing
>>is 30 years old, not only that but Sears was willing to give you a
>>discount on the new one and they gave you back your money that you
>>spent on knifes that you damaged. Tools age just like people and
>>don't work as well when they get older.
>
>
> That wasn't the point at all. The guy's problem was that the replacement
> knives that Sears sold were defective, and the defective knives damaged the
> machine. He's not complaining about the jointer wearing out, for Pete's sake,
> he's griping that it was destroyed by defective replacement parts.
>
>
>> Sounds to me like they went
>>out of their way to help you out.
>
>
> Sure doesn't sound like it to _me_.
>
>
>>I know from first hand experience
>>that no other retailer would even talk to you on a 30 year old
>>product, IE Menards or Home Depot. Stop complaining and be happy that
>>your tool actually lasted that long.
>
>
> You've totally missed the point...
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
>
> For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
> send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
>
>

If you put this model number into the sears parts website you can
clearly see that it was built in 1971 on the diagram. It also looks
like a reletively small one, deffinitely not industrial. That thing
is 30 years old, not only that but Sears was willing to give you a
discount on the new one and they gave you back your money that you
spent on knifes that you damaged. Tools age just like people and
don't work as well when they get older. Sounds to me like they went
out of their way to help you out. I know from first hand experience
that no other retailer would even talk to you on a 30 year old
product, IE Menards or Home Depot. Stop complaining and be happy that
your tool actually lasted that long.

Yahoo wrote:

> Lawyers would want the data that .008" variation would be causal. Was
> a torque wrench used and recorded in seating the knives, maybe motor
> bearings were the cause

Belt driven. The wedges are held in place by small bolts with Allen
wrench heads. No torque values are given in the manual which means that
you cinch them down as tight as possible with an Allen wrench.

I have the original knives and now two new replacement wedge bolts.
This afternoon I will test the movement of the cutter to see if it
vibrates. If all goes well, I'll put in the blades and give it the old
slice and dice test. We shall see.
mahalo,
jo4hn

Perhaps this is a good time to consider the purchase of a different
brand of jointer. Would a Jet, Delta or Powermatic work for you?

I had one of the jointers you describe. In my particular situation,
the replacement knives worked as well as the original ones. However,
this was 10 or so years ago. And I didn't get rid of it because it
was Craftsman, only because the size of projects was too large to
reliably joint parts on it.


On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 03:56:07 GMT, jo4hn <[email protected]> wrote:

>For all of you who may have missed the original post, an overview: I
>purchased an extra set of knives for my 20 yo Craftsman jointer
>(113.20650). While the originals were being sharpened, I installed the
>new set, turned on the jointer, and ran a piece of scrap through it.
>One of the knives came out, tore up the cutter head and ended up in the
>chip collector. Bleep says I

"js" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> yeah. maybe. but they are cheap. dont pay unless you win.

Talked to one once after I had got rear-ended and felt I was getting taken
by their insurance company.
Spent 30 minutes in the meeting - spent 3 hours in the shower trying to get
the stink off... Kind'a turned me off.

>
> Big companies have been successfully sued before by em... Hot coffee at Mc
> Donalds ring a bell?

Yeah...

Go for it, I guess. Let me know how it turns out.
I'm more than willing to Fight City Hall if it's damned sure I don't have to
pay court costs.

BAAAAD analogy Doug.

Gas isn't something that you can scrutinize like a blade.
He should have noticed the problem when assembling it.
Besides, 33 years for a piece of equipment is long enough to
have gotten his money's worth. He should quit being a
whining tightwad and rush out and buy a new toy! :)

If the equipment was 6 months old, and he took it in to a
repair station and they installed the wrong parts and handed
it back to him in a dangerous condition, then for sure they
are responsible. With the facts as the OP stated, I
maintain HE is responsible to some extent. You can't turn a
blind eye when installing parts for any fast rotating
equipment, be it from Sears, Delta or blah blah blah.

dave

Doug Miller wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>isn't there any culpability on the part of the person
>>installing the wrong parts???
>
>
> Suppose you go to the corner gas station and fill up your car -- but
> unbeknownst to you, the guy that delivers the fuel screwed up and put diesel
> in the underground tank instead of regular unleaded. And it damages your
> engine. Are you at fault for pumping the wrong stuff in your gas tank?
>
>
>>Is Sears 100% fault for
>>providing the guy what they thought would fit his 33 year
>>old equipment? gimmie a break!
>
>
> The problem, as I read it, was that the replacement parts were machined to
> such sloppy tolerances as would virtually guarantee a problem of some sort. So
> cast your question another way: Is Sears 100% at fault for providing the guy
> with poorly machined jointer knives? Absolutely.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
>
> For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
> send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
>
>

yeah. maybe. but they are cheap. dont pay unless you win.

Big companies have been successfully sued before by em... Hot coffee at Mc
Donalds ring a bell?



"mttt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "js" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Yeah. I would think one of those injury lawyer types would be interested
> in
> > hearing about improperly made knives that have the potential to
seriously
>
> One of those 'graduated last in his class from a 3rd rate law school'
types
> taking on Sears? Sheesh - Sears likely has scores in house, and scores
more
> on retainer.
>
> It would be a suicide run...
> Amusing, but suicide.
>
>

"js" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Yeah. I would think one of those injury lawyer types would be interested
in
> hearing about improperly made knives that have the potential to seriously

One of those 'graduated last in his class from a 3rd rate law school' types
taking on Sears? Sheesh - Sears likely has scores in house, and scores more
on retainer.

It would be a suicide run...
Amusing, but suicide.

Marc wrote:
> If you put this model number into the sears parts website you can
> clearly see that it was built in 1971 on the diagram. It also looks
> like a reletively small one, deffinitely not industrial. That thing
> is 30 years old, not only that but Sears was willing to give you a
> discount on the new one and they gave you back your money that you
> spent on knifes that you damaged. Tools age just like people and
> don't work as well when they get older. Sounds to me like they went
> out of their way to help you out. I know from first hand experience
> that no other retailer would even talk to you on a 30 year old
> product, IE Menards or Home Depot. Stop complaining and be happy that
> your tool actually lasted that long.

The knives did not have a uniform thickness from one end to the other
(off by as much as .008" IIRC). This means that the wedges were not
seated properly at the same distance from the center of rotation from
one end to the other. This means that the center of mass of the rapidly
rotating mess is not congruent with the center of rotation. Hence it
vibrates enough to move the knives and let them fly out. Could'a been a
big owie so I'm not complaining about that. Quality control is another
thing.

Oh and one I think does not expect this sort of damage to a lump of cast
iron after only 30 years. More likely to give up are motors and
bearings, stuff that moves.

I got another letter from Sears just now explaining that I am stupid. I
will send this along in another post. I am happy that they cleared that
up for me.
grumble,
jo4hn

I'd take knives, jointer, the works into my local sears, and speak to a
manager mano a mano.

Not only can you get your point across, you have a strategic advantage of
the other customers in the store seeing how angry you are, and this
potential loss of business will proably cause some movement.
"Chipper Wood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.sears.com/
>
> Click on "About us".
> See the bottom of the page on the 'Copyright' line.
>
> "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money refunded."
>
> Simply take back the whole item......
>
> --
> Chipper Wood
>
> useours, yours won't work
>
> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > For all of you who may have missed the original post, an overview: I
> > purchased an extra set of knives for my 20 yo Craftsman jointer
> > (113.20650). While the originals were being sharpened, I installed the
> > new set, turned on the jointer, and ran a piece of scrap through it.
> > One of the knives came out, tore up the cutter head and ended up in the
> > chip collector. Bleep says I and orders another set thinking that I had
> > not cleaned the new knives well enough, or had not set the screws in the
> > wedges well enough, or...
> >
> > Cleaned and installed these, turned on the machine, and two blades came
> > out hitting the guard, taking a chunk out of the infeed table, scoring
> > the underside of the outfeed table, and messing up the cutter head
> > again. I measured the knives and discovered that they vary in thickness
> > up to .008" from one end of a blade to the other. Width and length also
> > vary. I wrote to Sears explaining the situation and asking for repairs
> > to the jointer or a new jointer. They replied by refunding the cost of
> > the two sets of knives and two wedge screws (bent by impact). I wrote
> > back offering pictures of the damage and testimony/affidavits from LOML
> > and neighbor as to its condition prior to the incident. Following is
> > the letter I received in return.
> >
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > I have requested that a credit is issued in the full amount of $71.48.
> > Thank you for the information provided to us, so that we may assist you
> > with your situation.
> >
> >
> > I realize that our decision may be disheartening, and I apologize that
> > we are not able to fulfill your request for a new jointer at our cost.
> > You may contact your store to see if they are able to assist with
> > repairs at a lesser cost than a new replacement jointer, or we will
> > gladly take 10% off of any future price on a jointer of your choice. If
> > you do choose to take advantage of the 10% I have approved, please
> > contact Sears.com to place the order, and refer the customer service
> > representative to your previous Sears.com order, seax-004642034-seaz. I
> > have notated the order so that the rep will fulfill the requested 10%
> > off. I appreciate your willingness to provide further documentation and
> > witnessed, but we still would not be able to accurately verify prior
> > performance or proper handling of the tool during replacement. If we had
> > damaged the tool during blade replacement, then a new model may
> > certainly be an option.
> >
> > I am sorry that we have not fulfilled all of your request. You are
> > valued as a customer.
> > Thanks,
> > Brian Boka
> > Sears Product Support & E-mail
> > Customer Direct Team Manager
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I wrote again offering to repair it myself if they would supply the
> > infeed table and cutter assembly parts:
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Dear Mr. Boka,
> >
> > I now have $71.48, no extra set of knives, and a jointer broken by your
> > defective parts. I am not about to buy a replacement from Sears if this
> > is how you stand behind your products. I returned the knives. Did you
> > even measure the thickness? If so, you would see that no matter my
> > replacement technique, the knives would not have stayed in place.
> >
> > I had hoped to make this right by dint of a dose in integrity, mine and
> > Sears. There is also a chip out of the outfeed table, but it is
> > underneath. Thus, if you will not replace the jointer, replacing the
> > infeed table and the cutter assembly will be acceptable. I will bolt
> > the new parts in place and return to old to you. Or I will consent to
> > taking the jointer to a facility of your choosing for repair by you. I
> > will be happy to return the damaged parts if you want them.
> >
> > ... [some stuff about courts and the wRECk snipped]
> >
> > If I am truly valued as a customer, at least meet me half way.
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Somehow, I doubt my value at this point. Will keep you all posted.
> > mahalo,
> > jo4hn
> >
>
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>isn't there any culpability on the part of the person
>installing the wrong parts???

Suppose you go to the corner gas station and fill up your car -- but
unbeknownst to you, the guy that delivers the fuel screwed up and put diesel
in the underground tank instead of regular unleaded. And it damages your
engine. Are you at fault for pumping the wrong stuff in your gas tank?

> Is Sears 100% fault for
>providing the guy what they thought would fit his 33 year
>old equipment? gimmie a break!

The problem, as I read it, was that the replacement parts were machined to
such sloppy tolerances as would virtually guarantee a problem of some sort. So
cast your question another way: Is Sears 100% at fault for providing the guy
with poorly machined jointer knives? Absolutely.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

I would love to see you load up the machine and bring it into the local
Sears store. Make a loud stink about the 'dangerous' machine and do it
during a busy sale weekend. <G> Mark

jo4hn wrote:

>
> Somehow, I doubt my value at this point. Will keep you all posted.
> mahalo,
> jo4hn
>

Yeah. I would think one of those injury lawyer types would be interested in
hearing about improperly made knives that have the potential to seriously
harm or kill someone flying out of your jointer. I think they would be very
interested.


"Mutt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sue the bastuds! Caveat: Remember free legal advice is worth what
> you pay for it, but I'd file a small claims complaint; they'll have to
> hire a lawyer, it'll cost them plenty, and you will likely get a
> default judgment against them for the price of a new jointer. Then
> you send a sheriff down to the local Sears store and levy on the cash
> in the registers!
>
>
> jo4hn <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > For all of you who may have missed the original post, an overview: I
> > purchased an extra set of knives for my 20 yo Craftsman jointer
> > (113.20650). While the originals were being sharpened, I installed the
> > new set, turned on the jointer, and ran a piece of scrap through it.
> > One of the knives came out, tore up the cutter head and ended up in the
> > chip collector. Bleep says I and orders another set thinking that I had
> > not cleaned the new knives well enough, or had not set the screws in the
> > wedges well enough, or...
> >
> > Cleaned and installed these, turned on the machine, and two blades came
> > out hitting the guard, taking a chunk out of the infeed table, scoring
> > the underside of the outfeed table, and messing up the cutter head
> > again. I measured the knives and discovered that they vary in thickness
> > up to .008" from one end of a blade to the other. Width and length also
> > vary. I wrote to Sears explaining the situation and asking for repairs
> > to the jointer or a new jointer. They replied by refunding the cost of
> > the two sets of knives and two wedge screws (bent by impact). I wrote
> > back offering pictures of the damage and testimony/affidavits from LOML
> > and neighbor as to its condition prior to the incident. Following is
> > the letter I received in return.
> >
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > I have requested that a credit is issued in the full amount of $71.48.
> > Thank you for the information provided to us, so that we may assist you
> > with your situation.
> >
> >
> > I realize that our decision may be disheartening, and I apologize that
> > we are not able to fulfill your request for a new jointer at our cost.
> > You may contact your store to see if they are able to assist with
> > repairs at a lesser cost than a new replacement jointer, or we will
> > gladly take 10% off of any future price on a jointer of your choice. If
> > you do choose to take advantage of the 10% I have approved, please
> > contact Sears.com to place the order, and refer the customer service
> > representative to your previous Sears.com order, seax-004642034-seaz. I
> > have notated the order so that the rep will fulfill the requested 10%
> > off. I appreciate your willingness to provide further documentation and
> > witnessed, but we still would not be able to accurately verify prior
> > performance or proper handling of the tool during replacement. If we had
> > damaged the tool during blade replacement, then a new model may
> > certainly be an option.
> >
> > I am sorry that we have not fulfilled all of your request. You are
> > valued as a customer.
> > Thanks,
> > Brian Boka
> > Sears Product Support & E-mail
> > Customer Direct Team Manager
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I wrote again offering to repair it myself if they would supply the
> > infeed table and cutter assembly parts:
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Dear Mr. Boka,
> >
> > I now have $71.48, no extra set of knives, and a jointer broken by your
> > defective parts. I am not about to buy a replacement from Sears if this
> > is how you stand behind your products. I returned the knives. Did you
> > even measure the thickness? If so, you would see that no matter my
> > replacement technique, the knives would not have stayed in place.
> >
> > I had hoped to make this right by dint of a dose in integrity, mine and
> > Sears. There is also a chip out of the outfeed table, but it is
> > underneath. Thus, if you will not replace the jointer, replacing the
> > infeed table and the cutter assembly will be acceptable. I will bolt
> > the new parts in place and return to old to you. Or I will consent to
> > taking the jointer to a facility of your choosing for repair by you. I
> > will be happy to return the damaged parts if you want them.
> >
> > ... [some stuff about courts and the wRECk snipped]
> >
> > If I am truly valued as a customer, at least meet me half way.
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Somehow, I doubt my value at this point. Will keep you all posted.
> > mahalo,
> > jo4hn