I am not a designer, artist, or craftsman. I am a hack with tools.
I've made a few pieces with plans that those around me have been pretty
impressed with, but it's all been straight line furniture. Tables,
stands, bookcases, and the like.
My daughter has a store bought dresser that didn't even last 3 years.
I've set myself up to make a replacement... I've showed her all the
plans that I could find - but nothing is to suit her. She's popped
through some online pictures and found one she likes. I've posted the
picture to abpw as "Daughter's Dresser."
Guess I'm looking for a little guidance on how to make it happen. I've
many, many books on design and layout.
I'll have to avoid the fancy turnings and carvings, just straight line
stuff... Would a decent approach be find a plan that is similar and
modify? Or should I try and actually develop a plan section by section?
I don't have access to CAD - not that it matters, but I have Visio!
Just not sure how to tackle it I guess... nor how to even pose the
question I need answered.
Thoughts?
Regards,
-jbd
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:16:39 -0600, John Dykes
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Guess Who, it's obvious that you are a skilled woodworker and gifted
>mathematician, and at the risk of losing some of your advice in the
>future, I think you should lighten up a bit.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged," I'm light enough, friend, and you
can't count the number of people I have helped over the years in
woodworking and in math. It was you who said you knew absolutely
nothing about woodworking [but now added some more positive detail on
that.] My neighbour across the road is now earning a small additional
income from the table saw I gave him and advice over the years. You
should not start a conversation asking for assistance on what can be a
major project saying you know absolutely nothing. NOW you add a few
details. He either saw me and watched, or asked. He never at any
point early in the game showed me a picture of an elaborate item and
asked how to build it. I would have told him the same thing i told
you, but being friends would have been a bit more to the point if you
get my dift.
The point of fact is that you could as readily asked for plans or
details on how to build a generic dresser carcase, or how to do
certain joinery. The size and shape would then be simply one of your
choice. What you DO need to know is the joinery, tools needed for
that, and possibly choice of wood. You also need to gain some skill
in that over time. You added none of the details needed to give a
definitive answer. Others simply guessed.
You want some REALLY good advice? Take a night course. There is
often one available at the local high school.
"John Dykes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am not a designer, artist, or craftsman. I am a hack with tools.
>
> I've made a few pieces with plans that those around me have been pretty
> impressed with, but it's all been straight line furniture. Tables, stands,
> bookcases, and the like.
>
> My daughter has a store bought dresser that didn't even last 3 years. I've
> set myself up to make a replacement... I've showed her all the plans that
> I could find - but nothing is to suit her. She's popped through some
> online pictures and found one she likes. I've posted the picture to abpw
> as "Daughter's Dresser."
>
> Guess I'm looking for a little guidance on how to make it happen. I've
> many, many books on design and layout.
>
> I'll have to avoid the fancy turnings and carvings, just straight line
> stuff... Would a decent approach be find a plan that is similar and
> modify? Or should I try and actually develop a plan section by section?
>
> I don't have access to CAD - not that it matters, but I have Visio!
>
> Just not sure how to tackle it I guess... nor how to even pose the
> question I need answered.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Regards,
>
> -jbd
John - Do you plan to build the one your daughter wants or some simplified
version?
Building the one she actually wants will take considerable time and effort
on your part. However, should you want to simplify it into a bland, no
curves, no beads, no carvings or turnings, just build her a standard
stack-o-boxes dresser. She will love^H^H^H^H like it.
There are thousands of plans on line for simple dressers. DAGS
I would hope you will challenge yourself and take the time to build the one
she wants. Build a practice one from cheap materials, buying the necessary
tools (using your daughter's needs as an excuse) and practice the joinery
necessary. If you need help on a particular joint or procedure, ask here.
Dave
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snip
> Design Cad is a cheap worthwhile CAD program under $100. Sketchup is not
> a
> true CAD program, but it will get the job done for most woodworkers. It
> originally retailed for $495. Google bought it and stripped out some of
> the
> more sophisticated printing capability then posted it for free to anyone
> who
> wants it. It will get the job done and its fun to use. There are many
> high
> quality, free training videos available on the sketchup.com website.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Bob
I use AutoSketch9 from Autodesk - It really works nice for my woodworking
projects.
Dave
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Guess who wrote:
>
> I'm not an artist, and in fact draw stick people, but I saw this
> painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and thought I'd give it
> a shot. Any ideas?
>
Yes. You're an ass for posting that reply to someone who asked for
help and was clear that he was planning to build a simplified version.
Guess who wrote:
> On 2 Jun 2006 17:59:27 -0700, "A.M. Wood"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Guess who wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm not an artist, and in fact draw stick people, but I saw this
> >> painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and thought I'd give it
> >> a shot. Any ideas?
> >>
> >
> >Yes. You're an ass for posting that reply to someone who asked for
> >help and was clear that he was planning to build a simplified version.
>
> You're a fool for being fooled. If he wanted simple advice he could
> easily have asked for it without showing he photo he did, or possibly
> some other relatively masterful piece. Get real. If this is what
> daughter had in mind, he should buy it for her, lacking the skills to
> the extend he admitted. Really, give us a break. What was clear was
> that he doesn't yet have the skill, and if you know anything at all
> about woodworking and if you have any skill yourself, you'd also know
> how long it would take to get to that point.
>
> If you want to spend the time explaining ...and it will be a long
> process... go for it. I say again that he should go slowly, and learn
> the necessary skills by first tackling something more within his
> grasp. That will take a long time. What he needs to do first is to
> ask some *reasonable* questions about processes and techniques in
> general, and on smaller projects.
Reasonable!!!!!!
Who made you the question police?
What is **unreasonable** about asking for input on converting a picture
to a plan? If you read the replies it's pretty clear most contributors
saw that was the question. The only unreasonable comments on this
thread are the ones tearing down the gentleman who asked the question.
Do yourself a favor and get some social skills to go along with those
woodworking skills you think you have.
Guess who wrote:
> On 3 Jun 2006 06:31:55 -0700, "A.M. Wood"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Reasonable!!!!!!
> >
> >Who made you the question police?
>
> Who gave you the right to police me? Spend your time answerin the OP
> instead.
Al Gore. He gave me a certificate when he invented the internet. Any
other questions?
A.M. Wood wrote:
> Guess who wrote:
> > On 3 Jun 2006 06:31:55 -0700, "A.M. Wood"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Reasonable!!!!!!
> > >
> > >Who made you the question police?
> >
> > Who gave you the right to police me? Spend your time answerin the OP
> > instead.
>
>
> Al Gore. He gave me a certificate when he invented the internet. Any
> other questions?
Seriously though. You're a troll and everyone has the right to police
trolls. If we didn't they'd take over.
Guess who wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:46:55 -0600, John Dykes
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I am not a designer, artist, or craftsman. I am a hack with tools.
>
>> Thoughts?
>
> I'm not an artist, and in fact draw stick people, but I saw this
> painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and thought I'd give it
> a shot. Any ideas?
>
> First try something within your grasp.
>
I'm no artist either, but given my experience, I might have some
suggestions to get started. You have a few things going for you:
1. You know what you want to do.
2. Chances are, you probably have the skill to do a passable job and
learn quite a bit! You draw stick people? That is a great place to start!!
I'm sure with these combination of things, a few of us can get you
headed down the right path. It may seem pretty daunting at first, but
take baby steps, and we'll be here to guide you each step of the way.
Hell, we could view it as a community project!
Again focus on what you can do and go from there. Don't be intimidated
by the size of the project. Break it up into little pieces and "draw
sticks" for each one. It would be a simple thing to get a copy of that
picture on some 8x11 piece of paper. Then use a copier to copy it to a
transparency. Find, buy, borrow, or steal an overhead projector to get
the transparency image on whatever wall or ceiling you want to paint.
Then take the skill that you DO have and trace over the image. Easy!!
Don't worry - it doesn't have to be perfect!
If you have some canvas or don't mind painting over the wall with white
paint a few times, maybe start out with a small section of the painting.
Try tracing it from the image that is projected - then right next to it,
try to freehand what you just did. Do a few little pieces; different
sections... practice, experiment, enjoy, learn!
The hard part is done! Now, just match colors and paint inside the
lines. Nothing to it!
Hope that gives you the encouragement you need to get started. Just take
the skills that you do have and go little by little. There are probably
those here who have more experience than I do and will be able to
articulate a bit better than what I have done (not to mention tricks,
tips, and pitfalls to watch out for).
Keep us posted - through the process as well as the final result!!
Good luck!
- jbd
* By the way, this is woodworking, you may be off a few newsgroups! ;)
"John Dykes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't have access to CAD - not that it matters, but I have Visio!
Forget Visio. Its the world's worst program for doing cad. Its a diagramming
tool. I think its well worth the investment of time and money to get a cad
or cad-like program and learn it well enough to produce your design. I love
drafting things up in 3D and figuring out how to build a prototype without
even turning on the saw. I've avoided several mistakes by using a program.
Your photo is almost a straight on shot, so you could get the dimensions
reasonably close by pasting it into a cad program and then measuring the
distances. You will have to make an assumption about the height of the
dresser and tell the CAD program what it is, then the program will measure
everything else for you by clicking on the endpoints of each measurement
point in the picture.
You should be able to work out the construction details referring to any
furniture construction book that covers the basics - frame, drawers, etc.
Design Cad is a cheap worthwhile CAD program under $100. Sketchup is not a
true CAD program, but it will get the job done for most woodworkers. It
originally retailed for $495. Google bought it and stripped out some of the
more sophisticated printing capability then posted it for free to anyone who
wants it. It will get the job done and its fun to use. There are many high
quality, free training videos available on the sketchup.com website.
Good luck!
Bob
I appreciate the kind, detailed responses, and the time spent writing
them...
I've dabbled a bit in CAD, and will dabble a bit more if I find the
design process is to my taste.
I guess missed the mark a bit on what I was looking for (perhaps
encouragement or a kind word being part of it), and for that I
apologize. I wasn't trying to mislead or "fool" anyone. It's just that
I've never really worked on something like this w/out a plan; nor have I
ever drawn up a plan for something like this (kitchen cabinets are
pretty easy to be honest...)
My daughter is 9. After finding something she liked, she pointed to it
and said "Daddy, I like that one." And truth be told, what she liked was
the "O" on the door - she was hoping I could replace the "O" with an "H"
for Hannah. So no, she doesn't expect a curving front, carvings, or
inlays. She would like something that looks similar in some ways to that
picture - and whatever it looks like, it should have an "H" on the door!
(Perhaps a panel that she can slip out when she's 16, eh?) I'm sorry if
I wasn't clear enough. God knows, at this rate of my development, I'll
never have the skill for such a piece as shown in the picture! I'm glad
most of you were able to read through what I was unable to communicate
and provide the advice and encouragement that I was hoping for.
As far as classifying my skill, as I must have missed that as well - I
can follow plans, I can dimension lumber, I can measure, glue and clamp
- and as my father encouraged, "use a sharp pencil and saw to leave half
the line!" I've made a sofa table, 2 nightstands, a hall table, doors,
drawers, and various other boxes and trinkets. Mortises, tenons, dowels,
tongues, groves - even dovetails for God's sake! I do a good job, but
nothing compared to most of the work I've seen here. As far as design,
I've built out a set of kitchen cabinets using John Paquay's book. I am
no Master - compared to most here, I am a hack, but I like my work - as
do others. I just haven't developed a plan to work from before...
Again, you've all pushed me in the right direction, and for that, I am
truly grateful.
Guess Who, it's obvious that you are a skilled woodworker and gifted
mathematician, and at the risk of losing some of your advice in the
future, I think you should lighten up a bit. Everything isn't a
conspiracy. I was only asking how one would approach taking a picture
and make something _similar_ without all the curves and carvings - as I
stated in my first post. To be honest, you remind me of my father; A
skilled woodworker, an Engineer who trained at West Point, taught
advanced math and physics at university (his passion) -- he even likes
Pavarotti; he too can be grouchy... Folks don't mind a little "grouchy"
no and again - but bitter and mean spirited is something else altogether.
Regardless, the advice I've gotten is exactly what I was looking for -
even more.
Respectfully,
-jbd
Guess Who,
I would absolutely agree that you've helped many. And to that point,
I've tried not to alienate you by getting pissy over some of your more
caustic comments. Again, I value your past postings.
Be that as it may, I never said I "knew absolutely nothing about
woodworking" - I tried to quantify some of my past projects to give
folks an idea about my skills - as I also tried to let people know I
wasn't looking to make a reproduction. Again, I consider myself a novice
in the company of a few masters - and by calling myself a "novice" I
would like to think I am showing some measure of respect.
Again, I'm sorry that I was unable to articulate my needs clearly. I was
looking how to get a general plan from the picture - so my result would
look something similar. How to take a picture - and come up with some
sort of plan or way to attack it...
Admittedly, I do sometimes leave some of the "detail" out of my posts.
I've found that if you ask an exact question, you get an exact answer.
When trying to learn from those with greater skill and experience, I ask
a general question - and gather input from a wide variety of "general"
answers. In so doing, I learn more than I expected to learn; points I
don't have the experience to have even considered.
I had no intention of starting any flame war, but appreciate all responses.
Respectful Regards,
- jbd
"John Dykes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am not a designer, artist, or craftsman. I am a hack with tools.
>
> I've made a few pieces with plans that those around me have been pretty
> impressed with, but it's all been straight line furniture. Tables, stands,
> bookcases, and the like.
>
> My daughter has a store bought dresser that didn't even last 3 years. I've
> set myself up to make a replacement... I've showed her all the plans that
> I could find - but nothing is to suit her. She's popped through some
> online pictures and found one she likes. I've posted the picture to abpw
> as "Daughter's Dresser."
>
> Guess I'm looking for a little guidance on how to make it happen. I've
> many, many books on design and layout.
>
> I'll have to avoid the fancy turnings and carvings, just straight line
> stuff... Would a decent approach be find a plan that is similar and
> modify? Or should I try and actually develop a plan section by section?
>
> I don't have access to CAD - not that it matters, but I have Visio!
>
> Just not sure how to tackle it I guess... nor how to even pose the
> question I need answered.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Regards,
>
> -jbd
Here's a start: Approximate sizes
Height is 54 to 56"
Width is 34 to 36"
Depth - Probably around 20" (18" drawer depth)
Top drawer is about 5-1/4"
Next 3 half drawers are probably 7"
Bottom two full width drawers are closer to 8"
About a 4" clearance between floor and base molding.
Bow front drawers can be made up using laminations and a template to clamp
them to while the glue dries. The bottom molding and feet can be purchased.
The top has some type of decorative molding (or a recessed front edge) but I
can't make it out.
Style is French Country but the bowed front normally goes with French
Provincial so it's a hybrid I guess but the bow front is what gives it
appeal. If you go with a flat front - you may as well go with a Shaker
style instead because this will just be a plain box with drawers.
The above approximations give you a starting point and they follow (not to
the letter though) the Golden Ratio (1.618). Build the frame using the
approximate sizes and then build the drawers to fit. Need some ideas on how
to make basic web frames and panels then do a search but do take a look at
the Stickley site (www.stickley.com) and here for some details
http://www.stickley.com/features/index.html that will give you some ideas
you can use.
Not an easy project but you can't learn much if you aren't willing to
stretch once in awhile.
Bob S.
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 12:26:14 -0600, John Dykes
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I had no intention of starting any flame war, but appreciate all responses.
You have my apologies. A.M. does not.
Perhaps if you had been *less* specific I might have seen what you
were after. The picture shown, and as what you daughter wanted [no
mention of an "O"] did give a wrong impression topped with your
initial statements [plural] of lack of ability.
What is important in any construction is proportion. A rectangle can
be long and thin, or short and fat [a square], or can be what the
Greeks thought best, in the Golden Ratio. If you like the
proportions, then you can copy them several ways from the diagram.
You don't need to do a lot of calculation. Just measure height of the
image ...magnified if that's an asset [see below for a good way to do
that], and the height you think you'll want, and divide one by the
other on your calculator. Use that to multiply every other dimension
to get the new length or width. You don't need a CAD program; just
apply that to a rough sketch.
Problem 1. You won't get the depth that way from a 2D image on an
angle. Do a cardboard cutout of the front, and hold a ruler
horizontally, and eyeball back and forth until you are happy with the
measurement. again, it's the proportions that are important at first.
Problem 2. You will still not have any idea on how to do the joinery
until you have first done and practiced some joinery on less
important, but still useful, pieces. So, before you start on any such
project do some study on that. ...and that's the woodworking problem,
not the drawing. I'm just suggesting that it's possible you can do in
a day what took others a few years, but not likely.
On magnifying: Saving an image or any other document, you will
preserve the quality on magnifying if you saved it as a PDF file.
I've multiplied the size of some PDFs 2000 times onscreen just to see
that it could be done [not really very useful though.] You can
magnify that many times with little or no visual loss. Using a program
like PaintShop Pro [or Photofiltre is freeware] you can add little
markers and then in the PDF measure form one of those ot another to
get a full dimension with reasonably large, and so reasonably useful
number values. Tough to do on a 1x2 image for example. So, do your
measuring of the photo on a larger image for better accuracy.
True, a CAD program can help; it's just not really necessary here.
There are also "poster" programs that will print enlarged images on
several sheets you can tape together if you want to concentrate o na
larger image.
If you've read this far, write back and I'll tell you how to do the
"O", or a reasonable start on it, if there are none available near
you.
On 3 Jun 2006 09:54:11 -0700, "A.M. Wood"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Seriously though. You're a troll and everyone has the right to police
>trolls. If we didn't they'd take over.
God, what an asshole.
On 3 Jun 2006 06:31:55 -0700, "A.M. Wood"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Reasonable!!!!!!
>
>Who made you the question police?
Who gave you the right to police me? Spend your time answerin the OP
instead.
On 2 Jun 2006 17:59:27 -0700, "A.M. Wood"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Guess who wrote:
>>
>> I'm not an artist, and in fact draw stick people, but I saw this
>> painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and thought I'd give it
>> a shot. Any ideas?
>>
>
>Yes. You're an ass for posting that reply to someone who asked for
>help and was clear that he was planning to build a simplified version.
You're a fool for being fooled. If he wanted simple advice he could
easily have asked for it without showing he photo he did, or possibly
some other relatively masterful piece. Get real. If this is what
daughter had in mind, he should buy it for her, lacking the skills to
the extend he admitted. Really, give us a break. What was clear was
that he doesn't yet have the skill, and if you know anything at all
about woodworking and if you have any skill yourself, you'd also know
how long it would take to get to that point.
If you want to spend the time explaining ...and it will be a long
process... go for it. I say again that he should go slowly, and learn
the necessary skills by first tackling something more within his
grasp. That will take a long time. What he needs to do first is to
ask some *reasonable* questions about processes and techniques in
general, and on smaller projects.
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:46:55 -0600, John Dykes
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I am not a designer, artist, or craftsman. I am a hack with tools.
>Thoughts?
I'm not an artist, and in fact draw stick people, but I saw this
painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and thought I'd give it
a shot. Any ideas?
First try something within your grasp.
On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:22:13 -0400, "Bob"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Your photo is almost a straight on shot, so you could get the dimensions
>reasonably close by pasting it into a cad program and then measuring the
>distances. You will have to make an assumption about the height of the
>dresser and tell the CAD program what it is, then the program will measure
>everything else for you by clicking on the endpoints of each measurement
>point in the picture.
Or lacking CAD software, measure pixels in an image editor to get
relative distances. Or print it and measure off the print.
Measure the space it is going into and discuss with her what she'd
like and scale to that.
-Leuf
"John Dykes" wrote...
> I've posted the
> picture to abpw as "Daughter's Dresser."
> Just not sure how to tackle it I guess... nor how to even pose the
> question I need answered.
I've made plenty of pieces just working from a photo. Customers often will
have a pic of something they like & we'll go from there.
Start by identifying what aspects of the piece you can do and what you
can't. Decide what you can build that will give yield the overall look of
the piece.
For a beginner, I'd lose the radiuised front (looks radiused in the pic
anyway), the veneer work, and simplify the trim details to trim that can be
made with common router bits - ogees, classical bits, beads, etc.
Many of the parts - the ornamental bits at the front corners, the bun feet,
even dovetailed maple drawer boxes, can be purchased. There is usually some
small shop around that's specializing in doors and drawers. Outwater
Architectural http://www.outwater.com/ has lots ornamental trims and
hardware.
If you have a pair of proportional dividers, it's easy to make a scale
drawing from a photo if you have the height and width of the piece. I make
a dimensioned drawing at the drafting table that shows the front and side
views, top if needed. The innards I just do on the fly, but a beginner
might want to make a sectional view to avoid building a widget.
The piece in question looks very do-able. Start by simplifying the design,
and make a scale drawing. If you're not sure how to do the drawer rails,
you can borrow ideas from other pieces that you can find drawings of.
Hope this is helpful!
--
Timothy Juvenal
www.rude-tone.com/work.htm