Last Project Completed

On 4/19/2012 7:20 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:

> and audio went rampant. Actual company databases pale in size compared
> to all this graphics and audio stuff.

I recall recently reading somewhere that Microsoft's SAP database alone
was in the neighborhood of 6TB ... and that may be an old recollection?

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

> I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.

My data is not important enough to matter ... yet. ;)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/17/2012 6:51 PM, sal wrote:
> Very nice Leon I can only hope to be half as good. I'll be able to get some
> extra practice now, hurt my back and on Workers Comp. now can you imagine
> 66yrs. old and still trying to work. Have a good one.
>
> Sal
>
> "Leon"<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
>> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to do.
>> White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
>> bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather than
>> the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably close
>> to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>>
>> The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them. I
>> hope to take much better pictures then.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>
>

Thank you Sal and get better!

On Apr 17, 5:40 pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to
> do.

Damnit, Leon.... don't make me come over there... =^0

You do all that beautiful work and you record your efforts with a
camera phone? Seriously, as we talked about as a passing comment at
Christmas, you should truly consider an album/portfolio of your work.

Same with Karl. He does a nice job with his job photos, but he has a
lot of nice pieces in his house, too. Stuff to be proud of.

I am rarely without a camera these days. I document so much stuff
that I keep one in the truck almost all the time. And with the newest
camera I scored a really nice wide angle lens, Li battery, and found
batteries and 16GB cards with work with it just fine at Amazon.
Camera + batteries and big cards was about $130 after a pile of
discounts. But you can get a nice camera for documenting your work
(*hint* hint*) for less than that these days.

I have been at this business too long and honestly look back at some
of my finished work and wish I had taken just 15 minutes (or less... )
to snap a few pictures for me to look at later.

A few years ago I had a client that let me design their molding
install patterns, their crown molding profiles (using existing stock)
from the base molding (wood molding wrapped around curves) to the
ceiling treatments. These well heeled folks were delighted at the
fact that their moldings looked like no other, like their large 4
piece chair rails, down to the custom window sills with little crown
moldings (and returns!) underneath them.

They were so happy with the work they paid me to stay and personally
paint it all. In the end, I am not sure who was more proud of that
work, me or them.

But did I take a picture? NOOOOOO...... dumbass. What a
dumbass.
That opportunity was there and gone quickly as they couldn't wait to
move their furniture in and hang their pictures.

Not only did I miss an opportunity for a sales tool, but to remind
myself that not all of the work I do isn't just same sh*t, different
day.

Robert

On 4/19/2012 12:38 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>> applications.
>>
>> Even small businesses these days, particularly using media like videos
>> and multitrack recording for will run through a terabyte of data in
>> short order, and data that must be backed up with regard to version
>> control makes it even worse.
>>
>
> Oh stop Swing. What are you speaking about when you say videos and
> multitrack recording? Even in a recording environment, a terabyte is a lot
> of data.

You're living in the past, Mike. 100 hours of digital video storage,
which even the smallest video production studio will exceed for _one
project_ *excluding backup requirements*, requires 1.26 TB of storage.

But - even if there are specialized industries that do indeed
> require that kind of storage, it's still very far from the topic at hand,
> which is more about PC storage -

Don't look now, Bubba, it was YOU who changed the "topic at hand" with
your "good sized corporation" remark.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Leon wrote:

>
> Currently I have a 128 GIG solid state primary c: drive that basically
> has nothing but the OS and program files. I have a 1 terabyte data
> drive With all my data that I want to keep, going back 25 years. I
> have used "SEVEN" percent of the drive
>

Precisely! People have been talking about having terabytes of data when
what they mean is that they have a terbye drive. I want to see the member
in this forum who really has a terabyte of real date. It's cool to have big
things (just ask your wife...), but like so many other things, this stuff
can get out of hand. Sometimes technology and people who think they
understand it get out of sync with such fundamentals as Computer Science and
diciplines.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 4/18/2012 1:30 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:59:20 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> But did I take a picture? NOOOOOO...... dumbass. What a
>> dumbass.
>> That opportunity was there and gone quickly as they couldn't wait to
>> move their furniture in and hang their pictures.
>
> Same old question. If you don't have any pictures, did it really
> happen? I went one worse, at least it was worse in my books.
>
> Many pictures of my projects over the years. My computer died and so
> (for the time being, did all my saved images and information). Dumb
> ass that I am, I didn't have any of it backed up.
>
> The sad part of the whole fiasco, is that I'm always telling friends
> that they need to back up their information. Good advice. Me? I'm too
> stupid to follow my own advise.
>
> I have one avenue of hope. The information I had stored was on SCSI
> drives, a standard which is just about obsolete. I just might, be able
> to cobble together enough of a setup to run those SCSI drives and
> recover my information.

I use Carbonite for my back ups, on a cloud.

On 4/18/2012 12:59 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 17, 5:40 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
>> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to
>> do.
>
> Damnit, Leon.... don't make me come over there... =^0

But I want you co come over here Robert! LOL



> You do all that beautiful work and you record your efforts with a
> camera phone? Seriously, as we talked about as a passing comment at
> Christmas, you should truly consider an album/portfolio of your work.

Yeah and I thought about you as I was clicking the shutter button on my
iPhone. :~) Seriously, I did,. Robert I have a very good camera with
wide angle and long telephoto lens which is pretty fast. But hey if you
don't use it what good is it? ;~) I am going back to add the pulls and
will take that camera then. Not being complete so to speak kept me from
taking the better camera. And unfortunately these recent jobs are so
large that it is hard to not include the shop clutter if I shoot before
I deliver. But I hear you, prior to getting a phone with a camera I
used a good camera to take pictures of all of my work. I do have a note
book portfolio but I am leaning towards pointing towards Flickr and
e-mailing a link.


>
> Same with Karl. He does a nice job with his job photos, but he has a
> lot of nice pieces in his house, too. Stuff to be proud of.

Yes, absolutely he does!




>
> I am rarely without a camera these days. I document so much stuff
> that I keep one in the truck almost all the time. And with the newest
> camera I scored a really nice wide angle lens, Li battery, and found
> batteries and 16GB cards with work with it just fine at Amazon.
> Camera + batteries and big cards was about $130 after a pile of
> discounts. But you can get a nice camera for documenting your work
> (*hint* hint*) for less than that these days.
>
> I have been at this business too long and honestly look back at some
> of my finished work and wish I had taken just 15 minutes (or less... )
> to snap a few pictures for me to look at later.
>
> A few years ago I had a client that let me design their molding
> install patterns, their crown molding profiles (using existing stock)
> from the base molding (wood molding wrapped around curves) to the
> ceiling treatments. These well heeled folks were delighted at the
> fact that their moldings looked like no other, like their large 4
> piece chair rails, down to the custom window sills with little crown
> moldings (and returns!) underneath them.
>
> They were so happy with the work they paid me to stay and personally
> paint it all. In the end, I am not sure who was more proud of that
> work, me or them.
>
> But did I take a picture? NOOOOOO...... dumbass. What a
> dumbass.
> That opportunity was there and gone quickly as they couldn't wait to
> move their furniture in and hang their pictures.
>
> Not only did I miss an opportunity for a sales tool, but to remind
> myself that not all of the work I do isn't just same sh*t, different
> day.
>
> Robert
>

Thank you Robert!

Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 12:38 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>>> applications.
>>>
>>> Even small businesses these days, particularly using media like
>>> videos and multitrack recording for will run through a terabyte of
>>> data in short order, and data that must be backed up with regard to
>>> version control makes it even worse.
>>>
>>
>> Oh stop Swing. What are you speaking about when you say videos and
>> multitrack recording? Even in a recording environment, a terabyte
>> is a lot of data. But - even if there are specialized industries
>> that do indeed require that kind of storage, it's still very far
>> from the topic at hand, which is more about PC storage - for the
>> most of us. Again - even very significant corporations do not
>> require this level of backup. The fact that a particular niche may
>> require it is the anomoly.
>>> This was a huge, and expensive, problem ten years when I was still
>>> participating in the operation of a commercial recording studio, and
>>> today's requirements are even more demanding.
>>>
>>> So no, in reality, you can't say that ...
>>
>> I absolutely can. Read what I wrote. I did not address niche
>> industries like commercial recording. As I stated - good sized
>> corporations and home PC's do not require this level of backup
>> capacity.
>
> I provided some examples of less than "good sized corporations" that
> easily do exceed your data storage requirements. If you don't think
> that "good sized corporations" don't have "niche" departments in their
> structure that engender EXACTLY these kind of data storage
> requirements, it makes your statement even more apparent that you're
> living in the past.

I never said - or even implied that large volumes of data are not archived.
I simply stated that good sized corporations do not require TB storage
capacity for a good backup scheme. Read up on backup strategies and then
you'll see what I am saying. Sure - there are exceptions to this
statement - I never claimed there were not.

> Welcome to the 21st century, just five years ago:
>

I have made a career in this or similar industries. I'm plenty more than 5
years current.


> Notably, TheInfoPro's Wave-9 Survey of companies showed about 70% of
> corporate data is duplicates. TheInfoPro did not survey small
> companies or small home offices, the ranks of which represent 700,000
> companies with revenue of $200 million or less. But Robert Stevenson,
> managing director at TheInfoPro, estimated those small companies have
> from 500GB to 1TB of data today, and that they are experiencing the
> same exponential data growth as larger companies.
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9012364/A_zettabyte_by_2010_Corporate_data_grows_fiftyfold_in_three_years
>
> And again, that was five years ago.

Context Swing - context.

>
> Cite some evidence to backup your "I absolutely can.". I still don't
> think you can.

That's fine. I don't really have the energy right now for another internet
pissing context. Maybe tomorrow I will...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Pat Barber wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 7:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Tera bytes? Is anyone involved in this thread even thinking about
>> realistic needs? Come on - terabytes?
>
> I was thinking as I read that...what the hell are people storing ?

Exactly what I was thinking. Back in the day, we made decions about what to
back up because it served no purpose to back up entire disk images when only
a small amount of data changed. It was not just about cost either - though
that certainly was a consideration.

>
> I was also thinking that if I had a terabyte drive filled up, that I
> reached the point of having a wee too much data/pictures/movies/music.

My thoughts exactly. But, I suppose when it's cheap - what the heck...


>
> My newly minted son-in-law was telling us that he now had 80,000+
> songs stored on various devices..... I wondered how the hell does he
> find anything ?
>

80,000 songs!?!?!?!? I agree - how in the heck do you take advantage of
that?


> He apparently loaded that up to the web in just a short
> period of a week or so....

Ugh!


>
> I support a couple of multi-national companies that don't have
> anything approaching a terabyte.
>

Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a terabyte for a
good sized corporation, let alone any PC home applications.

> It appears that we have veered off our old woodworking thing again.

No - it is assumed that all of the terabyte drives are housed in hand built,
dove tailed (or Domino'd) hardwood cases.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Puckdropper wrote:
> Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>> For $4/months, "offsite" storage, via Carbonite, is cheap for my
>> benefit at ten times the price.
>>
>
> I bought a NAS (Network attached storage) box to store backups and
> multimedia files on. With 7.5 TB of storage (but reduced to around 4
> TB due to running the drives in RAID6 configuration), it cost around
> $1000. That $4/month will pay for 250 months, or about 20 years of
> storage and by that time you'll need more space than 4 TB. Hopefully
> Carbonite will up the amount of space you can use without raising the
> price excessively.
>

Tera bytes? Is anyone involved in this thread even thinking about
realistic needs? Come on - terabytes?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> IIRC, I started the unfortunate rabbit trail discussion with this
>> remark yesterday, specifically stating the incremental strategy:
>
> No, not really Karl. My comments were really more centered around
> what I had said - that I found it hard to believe that the average
> Joe needed that kind of storage/backup. I have acknowledged that I
> did not consider some things that are common today, but all the same
> held my ground that a lot of the "need" for terabyte backup is not
> really a need for that amount of backup. I also acknowledged that
> when storage is that cheap, the discussion becomes kind of moot. It's
> easier to just do a full than to do incrementals since the cost
> of storage has become so cheap.
> -

BTW Karl - saying all that to say that I don't think you headed this down
any rabit trail.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 4/20/2012 8:58 PM, Dave wrote:

> I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
> backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
> and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
> progresses.
>
> Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
> do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
> fares.

On 4/20/2012 9:24 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

> Say your backups were on megaupload, and your disk failed the week
> that the Feds seized them?
>
> I prefer to stick with things that I believe are reliable.
> I could be wrong, of course, but I have to apply my judgement somewhere.


Like I've said (more than a few times) ... Carbonite is just ONE part of
my comprehensive plan ... only a damned fool puts all his eggs in one
basket.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

> For $4/months, "offsite" storage, via Carbonite, is cheap for my
> benefit at ten times the price.
>

I bought a NAS (Network attached storage) box to store backups and
multimedia files on. With 7.5 TB of storage (but reduced to around 4 TB
due to running the drives in RAID6 configuration), it cost around $1000.
That $4/month will pay for 250 months, or about 20 years of storage and by
that time you'll need more space than 4 TB. Hopefully Carbonite will up
the amount of space you can use without raising the price excessively.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:3110e$4f8f8233
[email protected]:

> Puckdropper wrote:
>> I bought a NAS (Network attached storage) box to store backups and
>> multimedia files on. With 7.5 TB of storage (but reduced to around 4
>> TB due to running the drives in RAID6 configuration), it cost around
>> $1000. That $4/month will pay for 250 months, or about 20 years of
>> storage and by that time you'll need more space than 4 TB. Hopefully
>> Carbonite will up the amount of space you can use without raising the
>> price excessively.
>>
>
> Tera bytes? Is anyone involved in this thread even thinking about
> realistic needs? Come on - terabytes?
>

1 TB is 4 250 GB hard drives. If you have multiple computers, it would
not be difficult to fill that space up.

I'm not thinking about a single backup here, but rather multiple backups
to a single machine. Plus, old back ups sometimes have to be manually
deleted (which can be a good thing), and each one takes up several GB of
space itself.

The bare minimum data backup may only take a few gig, but with space as
cheap as it is (1TB for less than $100) why do just the minimum?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[email protected] (Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmpu5m$kta$2
@raid.furrfu.com:

>
> I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
> I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
> I've heard, I will find that a bit small.
>

I put a TB drive in my DVR around November. It's full now and starting to
delete things to make room. For some DVRs, that point is actually
considered "steady state" and not a problem.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 4/19/2012 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> I don't plan on getting into a discussion about about how much
> everybody is storing or needs to store, but for those of you
> with TB dreams, you better hope the computer industry has a
> major announcement pretty soon.
>
> This will provide you with a little view of how things are now.
>
> http://www.hitachigst.com/internal-drives/above-2tb/
>
> This discussion, as many on this forum, seems to drift out into
> oblivion on too many occasions.
>
> If your current computer is over 30 minutes old, you don't have
> all these data center capabilities I keep reading about here.
>
> May the force be with you.
>

Oh. That again. Remember when it was around 512 MB to 1 GB?

If you're running a 64-bit Windows OS, it's not a problem. Windows has
been 64-bit capable since XP came out around the turn of the century.
(I'm not sure if 2000 had a 64-bit version or not.)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 04/19/2012 08:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

>
> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a terabyte for a
> good sized corporation, let alone any PC home applications.
>

Ackshooly, when you start saving all your hi def pics and videos of
grandkids, the gigabytes just roll by, then when you start downloading
movies, well...

I stuck a couple of 2TB drives in my linux print/scan/file/backup server
using software RAID1.

Backuppc http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/

running on the server auto backups the three PC's in the house - my
linux desktop, the OverLords Win 7 and the winXP/linux dual boot laptop.
It's all compressed/incremental/etc. I also buzz off backuppc
archives on rewritable dvds once a month and give them to my son for
offsite storage.

The world changed on data size when GUIs showed up on PCs and graphics
and audio went rampant. Actual company databases pale in size compared
to all this graphics and audio stuff. Also the reason why operating
systems and memory sizes are off the charts.

On 04/19/2012 06:27 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 04/19/2012 08:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>> applications.
>>
>> Ackshooly, when you start saving all your hi def pics and videos of
>> grandkids, the gigabytes just roll by, then when you start downloading
>> movies, well...
>>
>> I stuck a couple of 2TB drives in my linux print/scan/file/backup
>> server using software RAID1.
>
> Yesbut, you don't need to repeatedly backup all of that data. A good backup
> strategy only backs up changed data. Though, as I said in a previous reply,
> at the price of storage, it's probably moot.
>
>
>
That's why I mentioned "incremental". The backuppc server app keeps one
full every week and incrementals every day until the next week, so at
most you have two fulls and six incrementals depending on the day in the
cycle. And I also mentioned compression which in my case seems to
reduce the load to between 1/2 and 1/3 of real size. Of course, you can
configure whatever schedule you'd like and whatever compression ratio
you can afford the time for.

On 04/19/2012 07:31 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 04/19/2012 06:27 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>>> On 04/19/2012 08:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>>> applications.
>>>
>>> Ackshooly, when you start saving all your hi def pics and videos of
>>> grandkids, the gigabytes just roll by, then when you start downloading
>>> movies, well...
>>>
>>> I stuck a couple of 2TB drives in my linux print/scan/file/backup
>>> server using software RAID1.
>>
>> Yesbut, you don't need to repeatedly backup all of that data. A good
>> backup
>> strategy only backs up changed data. Though, as I said in a previous
>> reply,
>> at the price of storage, it's probably moot.
>>
>>
>>
> That's why I mentioned "incremental". The backuppc server app keeps one
> full every week and incrementals every day until the next week, so at
> most you have two fulls and six incrementals depending on the day in the
> cycle. And I also mentioned compression which in my case seems to reduce
> the load to between 1/2 and 1/3 of real size. Of course, you can
> configure whatever schedule you'd like and whatever compression ratio
> you can afford the time for.

...and also, the backuppc app does a hash on the files and if it finds
dups, it increments the count but doesn't have to save the dup. when
the count goes to zero, so does the file when considering all the fulls
and increments.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
> DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

That's not a whole lot of time... Let's see... 8 seasons at 22 episodes
each is 176 hours.

I tend to archive stuff in case they decide to take a show off the air for
a long time again. Some shows aren't worth buying DVDs of, but they are
nice to watch on occasion.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> The problem I have with leaving them on the DVR is that I have had
> Direct TV and Uverse. If the unit has a problem, you get an exchange
> unit and you loose every thing. How many times did I get an exchange
> with with Direct TV. at least 4 times in the first 2 years and once so
> far in the first year with Uverse.

My DVR is a computer running a Linux version of MythTV. When it all
works, it's great. If you have a problem, well you better be familiar
with Linux. If you really screw up, the files are stored in standard MPG
format and you can pull the files off to another device and start over.

No device failures to report in years of using it, until the capture card
analog input went bad. (I had only had it for 8 years or so, 4 in daily
service.)

As with everything, though, there's good and bad. One big negative is
most set top boxes don't make it easy to change the channel via computer.
Remote control (IR remote) requires special hardware, but a good capture
card should provide an interface.

I find the irony interesting... My DirecTV box tries hard to remind me it
is a computer, while my computer tries hard to make me forget that it is.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[email protected] (Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmrq1h$1eq7$2
@raid.furrfu.com:

> There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
> But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
> trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
> very suddenly.
>
>

I promise not to open "password.txt"! (But maybe if it happens to be under
the mouse pointer when I accidentally double click, well I cannot stop that
right?) ;-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 12:38 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>>> applications.
>>>
>>> Even small businesses these days, particularly using media like
>>> videos and multitrack recording for will run through a terabyte of
>>> data in short order, and data that must be backed up with regard to
>>> version control makes it even worse.
>>>
>>
>> Oh stop Swing. What are you speaking about when you say videos and
>> multitrack recording? Even in a recording environment, a terabyte
>> is a lot of data.
>
> You're living in the past, Mike. 100 hours of digital video storage,
> which even the smallest video production studio will exceed for _one
> project_ *excluding backup requirements*, requires 1.26 TB of storage.
>
> But - even if there are specialized industries that do indeed
>> require that kind of storage, it's still very far from the topic at
>> hand, which is more about PC storage -
>
> Don't look now, Bubba, it was YOU who changed the "topic at hand" with
> your "good sized corporation" remark.

I made a simple freakin' statement. Too bad that had to be taken so damned
literally as to cause you to go off and find "proof" that it had flaws in
it. Oh well...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:

>
> IIRC, I started the unfortunate rabbit trail discussion with this
> remark yesterday, specifically stating the incremental strategy:

No, not really Karl. My comments were really more centered around what I
had said - that I found it hard to believe that the average Joe needed that
kind of storage/backup. I have acknowledged that I did not consider some
things that are common today, but all the same held my ground that a lot of
the "need" for terabyte backup is not really a need for that amount of
backup. I also acknowledged that when storage is that cheap, the discussion
becomes kind of moot. It's easier to just do a full than to do incrementals
since the cost of storage has become so cheap.

-
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Pat Barber <[email protected]> writes:
>On 4/19/2012 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>
>> If you have 700 CD's that's about 400 GB ripped as 16-bit stereo PCM (.wav).
>> If you have 1000 DVD's, that's about 4096 GB (4 TB). A single Blu-ray is 25 to 50 GB.
>>
>> It's useful to have on a hard disk for media centers feeding stereos and
>> media players (now built into your TV).
>>
>>
>> scott
>
>
>I don't plan on getting into a discussion about about how much
>everybody is storing or needs to store, but for those of you
>with TB dreams, you better hope the computer industry has a
>major announcement pretty soon.
>
>This will provide you with a little view of how things are now.
>
>http://www.hitachigst.com/internal-drives/above-2tb/
>
>This discussion, as many on this forum, seems to drift out into
>oblivion on too many occasions.
>
>If your current computer is over 30 minutes old, you don't have
>all these data center capabilities I keep reading about here.
>
>May the force be with you.
>

[top posting fixed]

I run linux. No problem with > 2TB. That's a microsoft problem.

scott

Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 2:07 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>
>
>>> Cite some evidence to backup your "I absolutely can.". I still don't
>>> think you can.
>>
>> That's fine. I don't really have the energy right now for another
>> internet pissing context. Maybe tomorrow I will...
>
> IOW, as long as you're pissing on someone else it's OK? Good luck
> with that.

Pissing on someone else? That does not even warrant a defensive reply.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Drew Lawson wrote:

>
> It wouldn't surprise me, though. My main system has about 420GB of
> data.
>
> Oh, the programming stuff only takes up megabytes. But people can
> fill a lot of space with audio/image/video data. If I did video
> editing, I would probably want (at least) a terabyte array.

Your comments and the comments of a few others did reveal something. I had
not considered such things as DVR's and the likes earlier. Or any other
media related storage for that matter. A good backup strategy however,
would still benefit those environments and reduce the amount of backup
required, since one only needs to back up dynamic data on a regular
schedule, and not all of the static data.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 8:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Drew Lawson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It wouldn't surprise me, though. My main system has about 420GB of
>>> data.
>>>
>>> Oh, the programming stuff only takes up megabytes. But people can
>>> fill a lot of space with audio/image/video data. If I did video
>>> editing, I would probably want (at least) a terabyte array.
>>
>> Your comments and the comments of a few others did reveal something.
>> I had not considered such things as DVR's and the likes earlier. Or
>> any other media related storage for that matter. A good backup
>> strategy however, would still benefit those environments and reduce
>> the amount of backup required, since one only needs to back up
>> dynamic data on a regular schedule, and not all of the static data.
>
> "Incremental backups" have been standard backup strategy since before
> xcopy was introduced.

Correct - but people here have been talking about backing up a (near)
terabyte of data, which has also been explained to be fairly static data.
Implied - no incremental backup strategy.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 4/20/2012 8:58 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>
> Swingman<[email protected]> writes:
>> On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>>
>>> I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.
>>
>> My data is not important enough to matter ... yet. ;)
>
> There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
> But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
> trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
> very suddenly.
>
>

If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
a new back up somewhere else.

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 07:46:03 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>The problem I have with leaving them on the DVR is that I have had
>Direct TV and Uverse. If the unit has a problem, you get an exchange
>unit and you lose every thing.

Yes, I've had the DVR drive die on me a have lost all the TV shows I
had on it. But, in this case, it's movies I'm talking about and those
I keep backed on one of those terabyte drives on my computer. When I
want to watch something, it's just a matter of streaming it to the TV.

On Apr 18, 12:59=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Apr 17, 5:40 pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
> > For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer=
.
> > =A0 Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had =
to
> > do.
>
> Damnit, Leon.... don't make me come over there... =A0 =A0 =3D^0
>
> You do all that beautiful work and you record your efforts with a
> camera phone? =A0Seriously, as we talked about as a passing comment at
> Christmas, you should truly consider an album/portfolio of your work.
>
> Same with Karl. =A0He does a nice job with his job photos, but he has a
> lot of nice pieces in his house, too. =A0Stuff to be proud of.
>
> I am rarely without a camera these days. =A0I document so much stuff
> that I keep one in the truck almost all the time. =A0And with the newest
> camera I scored a really nice wide angle lens, Li battery, and found
> batteries and 16GB cards with work with it just fine at Amazon.
> Camera + batteries and big cards was about $130 after a pile of
> discounts. =A0But you can get a nice camera for documenting your work
> (*hint* hint*) for less than that these days.
>
> I have been at this business too long and honestly look back at some
> of my finished work and wish I had taken just 15 minutes (or less... )
> to snap a few pictures for me to look at later.
>
> A few years ago I had a client that let me design their molding
> install patterns, their crown molding profiles (using existing stock)
> from the base molding (wood molding wrapped around curves) to the
> ceiling treatments. =A0These well heeled folks were delighted at the
> fact that their moldings looked like no other, like their large 4
> piece chair rails, down to the custom window sills with little crown
> moldings (and returns!) underneath them.
>
> They were so happy with the work they paid me to stay and personally
> paint it all. =A0In the end, I am not sure who was more proud of that
> work, me or them.
>
> But did I take a picture? =A0 NOOOOOO...... =A0 =A0 =A0dumbass. =A0What a
> dumbass.
> That opportunity was there and gone quickly as they couldn't wait to
> move their furniture in and hang their pictures.
>
> Not only did I miss an opportunity for a sales tool, but to remind
> myself that not all of the work I do isn't just same sh*t, different
> day.
>
> Robert

We crashed (again) as a result of a lightning strike a couple of years
ago and took the hint. I purchased one of the small portable Seagate
hard drives that comes with automatic backup software. It spends most
of its life in our safety deposit box where it is retrieved about once
a month for update. Today, I would have likely just opted for one of
the now-cheap high capacity flash drives. I also use one of those
pretty regularly to backup files that are important.

Granted, this works well for us because our small town bank is four
blocks away and retrieving the drive is no big deal. But with the
drive at a remote location it is safe from fire, tornado, theft, etc.

RonB

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 17:40:25 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to
>do.
>White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
>bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather
>than the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably
>close to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>
>The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them.
>I hope to take much better pictures then.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/

Very nice. I wouldn't object to having those in my living room. I
wouldn't choose to have the front plywood panels be so much lighter
than the solid oak, but I can understand that someone else could
prefer the contrast.

Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>> applications.
>
> Even small businesses these days, particularly using media like videos
> and multitrack recording for will run through a terabyte of data in
> short order, and data that must be backed up with regard to version
> control makes it even worse.
>

Oh stop Swing. What are you speaking about when you say videos and
multitrack recording? Even in a recording environment, a terabyte is a lot
of data. But - even if there are specialized industries that do indeed
require that kind of storage, it's still very far from the topic at hand,
which is more about PC storage - for the most of us. Again - even very
significant corporations do not require this level of backup. The fact that
a particular niche may require it is the anomoly.


> This was a huge, and expensive, problem ten years when I was still
> participating in the operation of a commercial recording studio, and
> today's requirements are even more demanding.
>
> So no, in reality, you can't say that ...

I absolutely can. Read what I wrote. I did not address niche industries
like commercial recording. As I stated - good sized corporations and home
PC's do not require this level of backup capacity.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 04/19/2012 08:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>>
>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>> applications.
>
> Ackshooly, when you start saving all your hi def pics and videos of
> grandkids, the gigabytes just roll by, then when you start downloading
> movies, well...
>
> I stuck a couple of 2TB drives in my linux print/scan/file/backup
> server using software RAID1.

Yesbut, you don't need to repeatedly backup all of that data. A good backup
strategy only backs up changed data. Though, as I said in a previous reply,
at the price of storage, it's probably moot.



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>> applications.
>>
>> Even small businesses these days, particularly using media like videos
>> and multitrack recording for will run through a terabyte of data in
>> short order, and data that must be backed up with regard to version
>> control makes it even worse.
>>
>
>Oh stop Swing. What are you speaking about when you say videos and
>multitrack recording? Even in a recording environment, a terabyte is a lot
>of data. But - even if there are specialized industries that do indeed
>require that kind of storage, it's still very far from the topic at hand,
>which is more about PC storage - for the most of us. Again - even very
>significant corporations do not require this level of backup. The fact that
>a particular niche may require it is the anomoly.

If you have 700 CD's that's about 400 GB ripped as 16-bit stereo PCM (.wav).
If you have 1000 DVD's, that's about 4096 GB (4 TB). A single Blu-ray is 25 to 50 GB.

It's useful to have on a hard disk for media centers feeding stereos and
media players (now built into your TV).


scott

On 4/19/2012 2:07 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:


>> Cite some evidence to backup your "I absolutely can.". I still don't
>> think you can.
>
> That's fine. I don't really have the energy right now for another internet
> pissing context. Maybe tomorrow I will...

IOW, as long as you're pissing on someone else it's OK? Good luck with that.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Pat Barber wrote:
>> On 4/18/2012 7:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Tera bytes? Is anyone involved in this thread even thinking about
>>> realistic needs? Come on - terabytes?
>>
>> I was thinking as I read that...what the hell are people storing ?
>
> Exactly what I was thinking. Back in the day, we made decions about what to
> back up because it served no purpose to back up entire disk images when only
> a small amount of data changed. It was not just about cost either - though
> that certainly was a consideration.

People have stuff! My dad still has the very first e-mail that he
received 15 years ago, and I swear they are all in his in box. LOL. He
HAS reached the end of the internet.

Way back when I recall having DOS back up programs that would load at
the a or c prompt. I trusted those but it took a load of floppies. I
no longer trust images as most every image program over the years has
had some kind of problem. So if my system crashes I am going to simply
reinstall the OS and my programs and have a fresh clean start. And then
copy my data files back in.

Currently I have a 128 GIG solid state primary c: drive that basically
has nothing but the OS and program files. I have a 1 terabyte data
drive With all my data that I want to keep, going back 25 years. I have
used "SEVEN" percent of the drive


>>
>> I was also thinking that if I had a terabyte drive filled up, that I
>> reached the point of having a wee too much data/pictures/movies/music.

I think if you have a terabyte drive filled with data you just might
have a problem LOL.. Hoarder.



>
> My thoughts exactly. But, I suppose when it's cheap - what the heck...
>
>
>>
>> My newly minted son-in-law was telling us that he now had 80,000+
>> songs stored on various devices..... I wondered how the hell does he
>> find anything ?

I bet you that he does not know 1/4 of what he has on there.

>
>
> 80,000 songs!?!?!?!? I agree - how in the heck do you take advantage of
> that?
>

Yeah that is only 166 days of continuous listening.
>

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to do.
> White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
> bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather than
> the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably close
> to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>
> The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them. I
> hope to take much better pictures then.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
>

Beautiful work. Did you use tempered glass? WW

A graphic nicely illustrating the spiraling growth in data storage needs
currently in motion:

http://www.rackspace.com/blog/infographic-data-storage-101/

Many are obviously not aware of these hugely growing requirements ...
the advent of mobile devices, the shift toward laptop computing, iPads
and other tablets, etc., have caused radical changes in both need and
methods of storage that aren't apparent until you embrace the technology
on either end, as a business catering to the consumer, or the consumer
storing what's is going to be served to him.

Therein lies the inarguable shift toward "cloud computing/storage", like
it or not.

This is going to impact _you_ sooner then later ... unless, of course,
the Mayan's were right. :)


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/19/2012 10:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/19/2012 8:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Drew Lawson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It wouldn't surprise me, though. My main system has about 420GB of
>>>> data.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, the programming stuff only takes up megabytes. But people can
>>>> fill a lot of space with audio/image/video data. If I did video
>>>> editing, I would probably want (at least) a terabyte array.
>>>
>>> Your comments and the comments of a few others did reveal something.
>>> I had not considered such things as DVR's and the likes earlier. Or
>>> any other media related storage for that matter. A good backup
>>> strategy however, would still benefit those environments and reduce
>>> the amount of backup required, since one only needs to back up
>>> dynamic data on a regular schedule, and not all of the static data.
>>
>> "Incremental backups" have been standard backup strategy since before
>> xcopy was introduced.
>
> Correct - but people here have been talking about backing up a (near)
> terabyte of data, which has also been explained to be fairly static data.
> Implied - no incremental backup strategy.

IIRC, I started the unfortunate rabbit trail discussion with this remark
yesterday, specifically stating the incremental strategy:

On 4/18/2012 12:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
> Two different uses, two totally different concepts ... I had no
> concern with, and no unrealistic expectations of, how long it takes
> for an initial upload to Carbonite, because it was configured to be
> done over a two week period as a background task with low priority.

> All subsequent file changes and additions are incremental background
> tasks done without noticeably impacting my use.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/20/2012 6:30 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/20/2012 12:07 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
>>> DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.
>>
>> That's not a whole lot of time... Let's see... 8 seasons at 22 episodes
>> each is 176 hours.
>>
>> I tend to archive stuff in case they decide to take a show off the air
>> for
>> a long time again. Some shows aren't worth buying DVDs of, but they are
>> nice to watch on occasion.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>
> Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
> them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
> watch any thing more than once, other than
>
> O'Brother where art thou.
> Second Hand Lyons
> Worlds Fastest Indian
>
> Not saying you are wrong ant all! I just don't put much faith in a HD to
> keep thing I want to keep.

Neither is optical disk storage a permanent solution.

Having transferred a few hundred recording project source files, as well
required corporate data for a couple of companies, onto various
recording media down through the years, I personally don't much faith in
long term optical disk storage either.

The life expectancy of optical media is both unknown and, as some have
said, "unknowable", and, as a result, is not relied upon by any industry
I'm aware of for archival purposes, particularly when it comes to
government mandated required corporate record keeping.

I'm still of the opinion that a combination of media gives gives me a
better chance to backup and archive precious data, which is one of the
reasons why I incorporated the "cloud" storage option (Carbonite AND Box
in my case), which gives me that all important "offsite" capability (at
a reasonable price), as well as still incorporating local backups.

I still have studio project files stored on 40 or so hard drives of
various sizes, and probably 300-400 storage DVD's, as well as hundreds
of boxes of master tapes ... none of which will probably stand the test
of time when all is said and done.

(The infamous Ampex 456 "sticky shed" has already taken it toll in the
last ten years on many masters).

Then there is the fact that technology advances often leaves "retrieval"
of your data hanging out to dry ... still have some of those old eight
track tapes?

Good luck in finding a machine to play on.

Digital archival is an expensive, and not necessarily robust, problem if
you have a lot of it.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Leon wrote:
>
> I use Carbonite for my back ups, on a cloud.

Statement by Mr. David Friend, CEO of Carbonite:

"...Even though Mr. [Rush] Limbaugh has now issued an apology, we have
nonetheless decided to withdraw our advertising from his show. We hope that
our action, along with the other advertisers who have already withdrawn
their ads, will ultimately contribute to a more civilized public discourse."
http://www.carbonite.com/en/blog/A-Message-from-Carbonite-CEO-David-Friend-Regarding-Ads-on-Limbaugh

"Carbonite, the Internet backup-security company, may be a good place to
securely store irreplaceable computer data, but it's not proving to be a
good place to invest irreplaceable dollars. The company, which went public
last August, has seen its stock dive 20 percent since Carbonite CEO David
Friend criticized Rush Limbaugh in the wake of the Sandra Fluke flap."

http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/carbonite-crashing-after-limbaugh-trashing/

On 4/18/2012 7:08 AM, RonB wrote:

> We crashed (again) as a result of a lightning strike a couple of years
> ago and took the hint. I purchased one of the small portable Seagate
> hard drives that comes with automatic backup software. It spends most
> of its life in our safety deposit box where it is retrieved about once
> a month for update. Today, I would have likely just opted for one of
> the now-cheap high capacity flash drives. I also use one of those
> pretty regularly to backup files that are important.
>
> Granted, this works well for us because our small town bank is four
> blocks away and retrieving the drive is no big deal. But with the
> drive at a remote location it is safe from fire, tornado, theft, etc.

While I still use media to backup files locally, a subscription to
Carbonite and, and free 50GB introductory offer to Box.com, backs up the
backups.

I've had to restore a few accidentally overwritten local files from
Carbonite in the last few months and it only took seconds.

And, I can access the files on both services from either my iPad, or
Android phone.

Would not do without the option in this day and age.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/20/2012 12:07 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
>> DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.
>
> That's not a whole lot of time... Let's see... 8 seasons at 22 episodes
> each is 176 hours.
>
> I tend to archive stuff in case they decide to take a show off the air for
> a long time again. Some shows aren't worth buying DVDs of, but they are
> nice to watch on occasion.
>
> Puckdropper

Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
watch any thing more than once, other than

O'Brother where art thou.
Second Hand Lyons
Worlds Fastest Indian

Not saying you are wrong ant all! I just don't put much faith in a HD
to keep thing I want to keep.

On 4/17/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Weisgram wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 17:40:25 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
>> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to
>> do.
>> White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
>> bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather
>> than the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably
>> close to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>>
>> The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them.
>> I hope to take much better pictures then.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> Very nice. I wouldn't object to having those in my living room. I
> wouldn't choose to have the front plywood panels be so much lighter
> than the solid oak, but I can understand that someone else could
> prefer the contrast.

Thank you Jim, it is mostly the lighting that exaggerates the contrast.

On 4/19/2012 8:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Drew Lawson wrote:
>
>>
>> It wouldn't surprise me, though. My main system has about 420GB of
>> data.
>>
>> Oh, the programming stuff only takes up megabytes. But people can
>> fill a lot of space with audio/image/video data. If I did video
>> editing, I would probably want (at least) a terabyte array.
>
> Your comments and the comments of a few others did reveal something. I had
> not considered such things as DVR's and the likes earlier. Or any other
> media related storage for that matter. A good backup strategy however,
> would still benefit those environments and reduce the amount of backup
> required, since one only needs to back up dynamic data on a regular
> schedule, and not all of the static data.

"Incremental backups" have been standard backup strategy since before
xcopy was introduced.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/19/2012 5:23 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> [email protected] (Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmpu5m$kta$2
> @raid.furrfu.com:
>
>>
>> I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
>> I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
>> I've heard, I will find that a bit small.
>>
>
> I put a TB drive in my DVR around November. It's full now and starting to
> delete things to make room. For some DVRs, that point is actually
> considered "steady state" and not a problem.

Just discovered a couple of nights ago that ALL my recorded woodworking
videos, which somehow went from "do not erase", to "OK erase to make
room", are now in the great bit bucket in the sky.

The dangers of the boomerang generation moving back "home" and starting
their own recording schemes, as if they were paying the bills. :(


--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/20/2012 8:58 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:49:36 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
>> immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
>> a new back up somewhere else.
>
> I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
> backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
> and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
> progresses.
>
> Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
> do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
> fares.

Carbonite has been around a "relative" long time..

When Swingman showed me how simple it was and the fact that I have tried
so many home back methods it was a welcome method. And there is no
limit to how much you can back up.

On 4/18/2012 12:05 AM, WW wrote:
> "Leon"<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
>> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to do.
>> White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
>> bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather than
>> the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably close
>> to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>>
>> The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them. I
>> hope to take much better pictures then.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>
> Beautiful work. Did you use tempered glass? WW
>
>

Thank you!

No I did not use tempered glass, I do so however when the glass is
closer to the floor and or is likely to be hit. Top cabs being set back
from the bottom cabs lessens this possibility.

On 4/17/2012 9:29 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 5:40 PM, Leon wrote:
>> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
>> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to do.
>> White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
>> bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather
>> than the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably
>> close to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>>
>> The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them. I
>> hope to take much better pictures then.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
> love your work, Leon. Where are you located?
>
> Larry

Thank you Larry. I live in a suburb of Houston, Richmond, TX.

On 4/19/2012 10:59 AM, Leon wrote:

> Yeah that is only 166 days of continuous listening.


And all depending upon the vulnerability of the electrical grid ...


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a terabyte for a
> good sized corporation, let alone any PC home applications.

Even small businesses these days, particularly using media like videos
and multitrack recording for will run through a terabyte of data in
short order, and data that must be backed up with regard to version
control makes it even worse.

This was a huge, and expensive, problem ten years when I was still
participating in the operation of a commercial recording studio, and
today's requirements are even more demanding.

So no, in reality, you can't say that ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/20/2012 10:36 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/20/2012 8:58 PM, Dave wrote:
>
> > I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
> > backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
> > and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
> > progresses.
> >
> > Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
> > do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
> > fares.
>
> On 4/20/2012 9:24 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>
>> Say your backups were on megaupload, and your disk failed the week
>> that the Feds seized them?
>>
>> I prefer to stick with things that I believe are reliable.
>> I could be wrong, of course, but I have to apply my judgement somewhere.
>
>
> Like I've said (more than a few times) ... Carbonite is just ONE part of
> my comprehensive plan ... only a damned fool puts all his eggs in one
> basket.
>

Yeah, I am still letting Windows7 do it's back up on an external HD but
that will be my last resort location for retrieval as I am not
absolutely sure I could find any thing on it. LOL

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Leon wrote:
>>
>> I use Carbonite for my back ups, on a cloud.
>
> Statement by Mr. David Friend, CEO of Carbonite:
>
> "...Even though Mr. [Rush] Limbaugh has now issued an apology, we have
> nonetheless decided to withdraw our advertising from his show. We hope
> that our action, along with the other advertisers who have already
> withdrawn their ads, will ultimately contribute to a more civilized
> public discourse."
> http://www.carbonite.com/en/blog/A-Message-from-Carbonite-CEO-David-Fri
> end-Regarding-Ads-on-Limbaugh
>
> "Carbonite, the Internet backup-security company, may be a good place
> to securely store irreplaceable computer data, but it's not proving to
> be a good place to invest irreplaceable dollars. The company, which
> went public last August, has seen its stock dive 20 percent since
> Carbonite CEO David Friend criticized Rush Limbaugh in the wake of the
> Sandra Fluke flap."
>
> http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/carbonite-crashing-after-limbaugh-trashing/

Some time ago, I decided to can Carbonite because I didn't think it was a
good system. Too slow and cumbersome to do big backups over the
internet, even at my than 25/15 Mbps (My FiOS is now 35/35). This was
long before the Limbaugh inexcusable outbursts.

Perhaps my (in some places vocal) withdrawal from Carbonite has caused
the sharp drop in stock prices, but, really, it could very well have been
that the stock price was driven up by speculation, and by now the bubble
had to burst.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 4/18/2012 7:08 AM, RonB wrote:
>
>> We crashed (again) as a result of a lightning strike a couple of
>> years ago and took the hint. I purchased one of the small portable
>> Seagate hard drives that comes with automatic backup software. It
>> spends most of its life in our safety deposit box where it is
>> retrieved about once a month for update. Today, I would have likely
>> just opted for one of the now-cheap high capacity flash drives. I
>> also use one of those pretty regularly to backup files that are
>> important.
>>
>> Granted, this works well for us because our small town bank is four
>> blocks away and retrieving the drive is no big deal. But with the
>> drive at a remote location it is safe from fire, tornado, theft, etc.
>
> While I still use media to backup files locally, a subscription to
> Carbonite and, and free 50GB introductory offer to Box.com, backs up
> the backups.
>
> I've had to restore a few accidentally overwritten local files from
> Carbonite in the last few months and it only took seconds.
>
> And, I can access the files on both services from either my iPad, or
> Android phone.
>
> Would not do without the option in this day and age.

I have my NAS backups for that. I am sure that if I needed remote
access, I would have figured out how, but I don't.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 4/18/2012 9:11 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
>> On 4/18/2012 5:33 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>> Damnit, Leon.... don't make me come over there...
>>
>> As Robert has pointed out, a very decent digital camera
>> can be had for well under $100. With a any decent camera
>> sdram chip, you can have thousands of pictures.
>>
>> I have failed to do the same thing, as many of us have and
>> I really regret it now.
>>
>> I have mentioned backup of computers many times on this forum.
>>
>> DO NOT lose the family history because of stupidity.
>>
>> A 16gb flash drive can be had for well under $20 and will hold
>> thousands of pictures.
>>
>> Put your pictures on cdrom and flash drives....and print them out.
>
> All of my pictures back up are on a cloud, Carbonite.

Most of mine are on SHutterfly, which has an option to get archive DVDs
with original resolution pictures.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 4/18/2012 11:19 AM, Han wrote:
>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 4/18/2012 7:08 AM, RonB wrote:
>>>
>>>> We crashed (again) as a result of a lightning strike a couple of
>>>> years ago and took the hint. I purchased one of the small portable
>>>> Seagate hard drives that comes with automatic backup software. It
>>>> spends most of its life in our safety deposit box where it is
>>>> retrieved about once a month for update. Today, I would have
>>>> likely just opted for one of the now-cheap high capacity flash
>>>> drives. I also use one of those pretty regularly to backup files
>>>> that are important.
>>>>
>>>> Granted, this works well for us because our small town bank is four
>>>> blocks away and retrieving the drive is no big deal. But with the
>>>> drive at a remote location it is safe from fire, tornado, theft,
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> While I still use media to backup files locally, a subscription to
>>> Carbonite and, and free 50GB introductory offer to Box.com, backs up
>>> the backups.
>>>
>>> I've had to restore a few accidentally overwritten local files from
>>> Carbonite in the last few months and it only took seconds.
>>>
>>> And, I can access the files on both services from either my iPad, or
>>> Android phone.
>>>
>>> Would not do without the option in this day and age.
>>
>> I have my NAS backups for that. I am sure that if I needed remote
>> access, I would have figured out how, but I don't.
>>
>
> "Offsite", Han. "Offsite" ... a backup does you NO good if your house
> burns down or blown away.
>
> It's why Iron Mountain, and other commercial data storage companies.
> are so vital to a businesses survival in the event of catastrophe.

Yes I should take up my bank on its offer of a free safe deposit box ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 04/19/2012 06:27 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>>> On 04/19/2012 08:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>>> applications.
>>>
>>> Ackshooly, when you start saving all your hi def pics and videos of
>>> grandkids, the gigabytes just roll by, then when you start
>>> downloading movies, well...
>>>
>>> I stuck a couple of 2TB drives in my linux print/scan/file/backup
>>> server using software RAID1.
>>
>> Yesbut, you don't need to repeatedly backup all of that data. A
>> good backup strategy only backs up changed data. Though, as I said
>> in a previous reply, at the price of storage, it's probably moot.
>>
>>
>>
> That's why I mentioned "incremental". The backuppc server app keeps
> one full every week and incrementals every day until the next week,
> so at most you have two fulls and six incrementals depending on the
> day in the cycle. And I also mentioned compression which in my case
> seems to reduce the load to between 1/2 and 1/3 of real size. Of
> course, you can configure whatever schedule you'd like and whatever
> compression ratio you can afford the time for.

Sorry - misunderstood what you were saying. Somehow, when I saw this (
It's all compressed/incremental/etc. ), my mind interpreted that to be a
directory structure. Go figure...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 06:30:23 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
>them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
>watch any thing more than once, other than

I did that for awhile, but came to the conclusion that it was a waste
of time and money to burn a DVD. Rarely, did I ever watch that DVD
again and I had to deal with the sorting and storage of a whole pile
of DVD's.

It was much easier just to leave a show or a movie on the hard drive.
If I decided that I'd never watch it again, DELETE and it's gone. The
operative word here is ~ convenience.

Drew Lawson wrote:

> There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
> But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
> trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
> very suddenly.

So here, the conversation takes a slightly different twist. I'm a huge
advocate of the cloud, but at the same time this very real concern just
continues to haunt thouse thoughts. Today more than ever, we can watch the
turnover or failure of companies in record time. Makes it very difficult to
place trust.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 4/17/2012 5:40 PM, Leon wrote:
> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to do.
> White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
> bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather
> than the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably
> close to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>
> The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them. I
> hope to take much better pictures then.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
love your work, Leon. Where are you located?

Larry

On 4/18/2012 11:18 AM, Han wrote:

> Some time ago, I decided to can Carbonite because I didn't think it was a
> good system. Too slow and cumbersome to do big backups over the
> internet, even at my than 25/15 Mbps (My FiOS is now 35/35).

IME, folks simply don't appreciate the difference between "offsite file
backup/storage", and using a cloud service like Carbonite to backup a
computer with the view toward "Restoring" it in case of a catastrophic
failure.

Two different uses, two totally different concepts ... I had no concern
with, and no unrealistic expectations of, how long it takes for an
initial upload to Carbonite, because it was configured to be done over a
two week period as a background task with low priority. All subsequent
file changes and additions are incremental background tasks done without
noticeably impacting my use.

ITMT, that computer was also backed up to a local device with the view
to a "Restore" in the event of the catastrophic failure of a component.

I would never consider relying upon "Restoring" a computer via Carbonite
alone, except as a last resort, absolute emergency measure, because that
is not what that particular storage methodology is good at.

For $4/months, "offsite" storage, via Carbonite, is cheap for my benefit
at ten times the price.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/18/2012 11:19 AM, Han wrote:
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 4/18/2012 7:08 AM, RonB wrote:
>>
>>> We crashed (again) as a result of a lightning strike a couple of
>>> years ago and took the hint. I purchased one of the small portable
>>> Seagate hard drives that comes with automatic backup software. It
>>> spends most of its life in our safety deposit box where it is
>>> retrieved about once a month for update. Today, I would have likely
>>> just opted for one of the now-cheap high capacity flash drives. I
>>> also use one of those pretty regularly to backup files that are
>>> important.
>>>
>>> Granted, this works well for us because our small town bank is four
>>> blocks away and retrieving the drive is no big deal. But with the
>>> drive at a remote location it is safe from fire, tornado, theft, etc.
>>
>> While I still use media to backup files locally, a subscription to
>> Carbonite and, and free 50GB introductory offer to Box.com, backs up
>> the backups.
>>
>> I've had to restore a few accidentally overwritten local files from
>> Carbonite in the last few months and it only took seconds.
>>
>> And, I can access the files on both services from either my iPad, or
>> Android phone.
>>
>> Would not do without the option in this day and age.
>
> I have my NAS backups for that. I am sure that if I needed remote
> access, I would have figured out how, but I don't.
>

"Offsite", Han. "Offsite" ... a backup does you NO good if your house
burns down or blown away.

It's why Iron Mountain, and other commercial data storage companies. are
so vital to a businesses survival in the event of catastrophe.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Very nice Leon I can only hope to be half as good. I'll be able to get some
extra practice now, hurt my back and on Workers Comp. now can you imagine
66yrs. old and still trying to work. Have a good one.

Sal

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
> Of course I forgot to take my good camera and the camera phone had to do.
> White Oak solid wood and plywood. Clear Old Masters Gel varnish. Not a
> bad varnish but needs to be wiped twice after each application rather than
> the single time that I have been used to doing. There are probably close
> to 250 floating tenons in the sides, face frames, and doors.
>
> The customer has door pulls on order and I will return to attach them. I
> hope to take much better pictures then.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
>

On 4/18/2012 9:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Puckdropper wrote:
>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> *snip*
>>
>>> For $4/months, "offsite" storage, via Carbonite, is cheap for my
>>> benefit at ten times the price.
>>>
>>
>> I bought a NAS (Network attached storage) box to store backups and
>> multimedia files on. With 7.5 TB of storage (but reduced to around 4
>> TB due to running the drives in RAID6 configuration), it cost around
>> $1000. That $4/month will pay for 250 months, or about 20 years of
>> storage and by that time you'll need more space than 4 TB. Hopefully
>> Carbonite will up the amount of space you can use without raising the
>> price excessively.
>>
>
> Tera bytes? Is anyone involved in this thread even thinking about
> realistic needs? Come on - terabytes?
>


I have about 3T of external drives.

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:59:20 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>But did I take a picture? NOOOOOO...... dumbass. What a
>dumbass.
>That opportunity was there and gone quickly as they couldn't wait to
>move their furniture in and hang their pictures.

Same old question. If you don't have any pictures, did it really
happen? I went one worse, at least it was worse in my books.

Many pictures of my projects over the years. My computer died and so
(for the time being, did all my saved images and information). Dumb
ass that I am, I didn't have any of it backed up.

The sad part of the whole fiasco, is that I'm always telling friends
that they need to back up their information. Good advice. Me? I'm too
stupid to follow my own advise.

I have one avenue of hope. The information I had stored was on SCSI
drives, a standard which is just about obsolete. I just might, be able
to cobble together enough of a setup to run those SCSI drives and
recover my information.

On 4/18/2012 5:33 AM, Leon wrote:

>> Damnit, Leon.... don't make me come over there...

As Robert has pointed out, a very decent digital camera
can be had for well under $100. With a any decent camera
sdram chip, you can have thousands of pictures.

I have failed to do the same thing, as many of us have and
I really regret it now.

I have mentioned backup of computers many times on this forum.

DO NOT lose the family history because of stupidity.

A 16gb flash drive can be had for well under $20 and will hold
thousands of pictures.

Put your pictures on cdrom and flash drives....and print them out.

On 4/17/2012 3:40 PM, Leon wrote:
> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.

How did you do those doors with arched rail ???

I assume a router template...

Very nice work...

On 4/18/2012 7:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Tera bytes? Is anyone involved in this thread even thinking about
> realistic needs? Come on - terabytes?

I was thinking as I read that...what the hell are people storing ?

I was also thinking that if I had a terabyte drive filled up, that I
reached the point of having a wee too much data/pictures/movies/music.


My newly minted son-in-law was telling us that he now had 80,000+ songs
stored on various devices..... I wondered how the hell does he find
anything ?

He apparently loaded that up to the web in just a short
period of a week or so....

And....what are you multi-terabyte folks using to backup all those
terabytes with ?

I support a couple of multi-national companies that don't have anything
approaching a terabyte.

It appears that we have veered off our old woodworking thing again.

In article <[email protected]>
Pat Barber <[email protected]> writes:
>
>And....what are you multi-terabyte folks using to backup all those
>terabytes with ?
>

I gave up on traditional backups when drives got past about 20 gig.

Most of my important stuff is in a directory tree that I mirror to
several machines. Two of them sync every night and the others sync
when I remmeber to tell them. So that stuff is safe for any single
disk failure or a local event (fire, etc) since one of the machines
is in another state.

Other things get backed up from time to time and dumped on a RAID
file system. I probably should burn those and take them to work
(my offsite storage).

I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.


--
Drew Lawson | It's not enough to be alive
| when your future's been deferred

On 4/19/2012 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

I don't plan on getting into a discussion about about how much
everybody is storing or needs to store, but for those of you
with TB dreams, you better hope the computer industry has a
major announcement pretty soon.

This will provide you with a little view of how things are now.

http://www.hitachigst.com/internal-drives/above-2tb/

This discussion, as many on this forum, seems to drift out into
oblivion on too many occasions.

If your current computer is over 30 minutes old, you don't have
all these data center capabilities I keep reading about here.

May the force be with you.


> If you have 700 CD's that's about 400 GB ripped as 16-bit stereo PCM (.wav).
> If you have 1000 DVD's, that's about 4096 GB (4 TB). A single Blu-ray is 25 to 50 GB.
>
> It's useful to have on a hard disk for media centers feeding stereos and
> media players (now built into your TV).
>
>
> scott

In article <[email protected]>
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Currently I have a 128 GIG solid state primary c: drive that basically
>> has nothing but the OS and program files. I have a 1 terabyte data
>> drive With all my data that I want to keep, going back 25 years. I
>> have used "SEVEN" percent of the drive
>>
>
>Precisely! People have been talking about having terabytes of data when
>what they mean is that they have a terbye drive. I want to see the member
>in this forum who really has a terabyte of real date.

It wouldn't surprise me, though. My main system has about 420GB of data.

>It's cool to have big
>things (just ask your wife...), but like so many other things, this stuff
>can get out of hand. Sometimes technology and people who think they
>understand it get out of sync with such fundamentals as Computer Science and
>diciplines.

Oh, the programming stuff only takes up megabytes. But people can
fill a lot of space with audio/image/video data. If I did video
editing, I would probably want (at least) a terabyte array.


--
Drew Lawson | "But the senator, while insisting he was not
| intoxicated, could not explain his nudity."

In article <[email protected]>
Swingman <[email protected]> writes:
>
>A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
>shrinking in its expectations as we speak.
>
>Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
>floppy disk storage in very short order.

I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
I've heard, I will find that a bit small.


--
|Drew Lawson | Mrs. Tweedy! |
| | The chickens are revolting! |

In article <[email protected]>
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/19/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>
>> Swingman<[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>> A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
>>> shrinking in its expectations as we speak.
>>>
>>> Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
>>> floppy disk storage in very short order.
>>
>> I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
>> I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
>> I've heard, I will find that a bit small.
>>
>>
>
>Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
>DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

I wonder about those numbers, since analog TV at "high" quality
takes about 1.5GB/hour on my box. The references I can find say a
500GB expansion drive adds about 60 hours in HD. (Of course, numbers
depend on the quality that the provider is actually delivering.
I've heard lots of complaints about HD shows on allegedly HD channels
being delivered in SD by some cable companies.)

My wife and I have fallen into a "what do you feel like" pattern,
rather than a "what do we have" pattern. One result of that is we
have a tendency to let most of a season record before we get around
to wathing some shows. I think we had 12 episodes of "Once Upon a
Time," for example.

So I like to have lots of extra space in case we go a while without
watching much.

I've also started recording some shows only to later realizs I have
8-10 episodes and never find I'm in the mood for the show. Slack
space is good for that. I get a little nervous when Deleted Items
drops below 40 hours.

--
Drew Lawson | Though it's just a memory,
| some memories last forever

In article <[email protected]>
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/19/2012 8:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>> Your comments and the comments of a few others did reveal something.
>>> I had not considered such things as DVR's and the likes earlier. Or
>>> any other media related storage for that matter. A good backup
>>> strategy however, would still benefit those environments and reduce
>>> the amount of backup required, since one only needs to back up
>>> dynamic data on a regular schedule, and not all of the static data.
>>
>> "Incremental backups" have been standard backup strategy since before
>> xcopy was introduced.
>
>Correct - but people here have been talking about backing up a (near)
>terabyte of data, which has also been explained to be fairly static data.
>Implied - no incremental backup strategy.

Maybe.

The stuff that I have mirrored to several systems is largely static.
But the backup process is incremental. I run rsync to handle it,
and it determines what has changed and only transfers those files.
Yet the various mirrors are full backups/copies.

Of course, this only protects me against media failure. If I damage
a file, the bad version will go out to all the machines and replace
the good. From time to time, I burn dated copies to disk, but not
as often as I probably should.

--
Drew Lawson And I know there's more to the story
I know I need to see more
I need to see s'more, hear s'more
feel s'more. I gotta be s'more

In article <[email protected]>
Swingman <[email protected]> writes:
>On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>
>> I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.
>
>My data is not important enough to matter ... yet. ;)

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.


--
Drew Lawson
"Please understand that we are considerably less interested
in you than you are."
-- Madeleine Page, on the deep truths of alt.folklore.urban

In article <[email protected]>
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> writes:
>[email protected] (Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmrq1h$1eq7$2
>@raid.furrfu.com:
>
>> There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
>> But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
>> trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
>> very suddenly.
>>
>>
>
>I promise not to open "password.txt"!

I actually made that mistake many tears ago.

I had a "in case something bad happens" document written up, and I
put in the superuser password. Sure enough, the machine got hacked
and then severely compromised. Had to wipe the whole thing.

That was my first system in the Internet Era.

--
Drew Lawson | Broke my mind
| Had no spare
|

On 4/20/2012 1:06 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Drew Lawson wrote:
>
>> There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
>> But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
>> trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
>> very suddenly.
>
> So here, the conversation takes a slightly different twist. I'm a huge
> advocate of the cloud, but at the same time this very real concern just
> continues to haunt thouse thoughts. Today more than ever, we can watch the
> turnover or failure of companies in record time. Makes it very difficult to
> place trust.
>
After yesterday I am more against the cloud than I was before. I was
mowing the yard and because of the lack of rain I worked in the cloud
most of the day


The dust cloud that is.

In article <[email protected]>
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/20/2012 8:58 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>
>> Swingman<[email protected]> writes:
>>> On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.
>>>
>>> My data is not important enough to matter ... yet. ;)
>>
>> There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
>> But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
>> trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
>> very suddenly.
>>
>
>If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
>immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
>a new back up somewhere else.

Sure, if nothing goes wrong.

Say your backups were on megaupload, and your disk failed the week
that the Feds seized them?

I prefer to stick with things that I believe are reliable.
I could be wrong, of course, but I have to apply my judgement somewhere.

--
Drew Lawson | And to those who lack the courage
| And say it's dangerous to try
| Well they just don't know
| That love eternal will not be denied

On 4/19/2012 5:30 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 5:23 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> [email protected] (Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmpu5m$kta$2
>> @raid.furrfu.com:
>>
>>>
>>> I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
>>> I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
>>> I've heard, I will find that a bit small.
>>>
>>
>> I put a TB drive in my DVR around November. It's full now and starting to
>> delete things to make room. For some DVRs, that point is actually
>> considered "steady state" and not a problem.
>
> Just discovered a couple of nights ago that ALL my recorded woodworking
> videos, which somehow went from "do not erase", to "OK erase to make
> room", are now in the great bit bucket in the sky.
>
> The dangers of the boomerang generation moving back "home" and starting
> their own recording schemes, as if they were paying the bills. :(
>
>

And you did not back them up???? LOL Storing stuff on a DVR is no saver
than on a computer.

On 4/19/2012 7:50 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>
>> I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.
>
> My data is not important enough to matter ... yet. ;)
>

That is how I see it. There are a lot of more interesting targets out
there.

On 4/19/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>
> Swingman<[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
>> shrinking in its expectations as we speak.
>>
>> Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
>> floppy disk storage in very short order.
>
> I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
> I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
> I've heard, I will find that a bit small.
>
>

Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

On 4/19/2012 2:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 2:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Well I can see "today" how a terabyte is probably needed for a "pro"
>> photographer, musician, cinematographer, and perhaps a few others. But
>> for the most part I would imagine the average user will be well handled
>> with less than 1 terabyte drive, just for data.
>
> Yeah, right! .. that's what Bill Gates supposedly said about 640KB. :)
>


And exactly why I qualified that with "today", "pro" and a few others.
I am well aware that there will be exceptions but "today" I can't see
more than 85% of the general public needing more, "today". The future
is a whole different ball game.





> Wait until you start saving that O' Brother Where Art Thou" sequel, and
> Ashley Judd HD movies for future viewing. The trend in storing these
> data intensive formats is away from the optical to hard drive and/or
> cloud storage.
>
> A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
> shrinking in its expectations as we speak.
>
> Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
> floppy disk storage in very short order.
>

And wait till when Hologram TV comes to life. ;~)

On 4/20/2012 8:22 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 4/19/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>
>>> Swingman<[email protected]> writes:
>>>>
>>>> A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
>>>> shrinking in its expectations as we speak.
>>>>
>>>> Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
>>>> floppy disk storage in very short order.
>>>
>>> I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
>>> I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
>>> I've heard, I will find that a bit small.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
>> DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.
>
> I wonder about those numbers, since analog TV at "high" quality
> takes about 1.5GB/hour on my box. The references I can find say a
> 500GB expansion drive adds about 60 hours in HD. (Of course, numbers
> depend on the quality that the provider is actually delivering.

This seems to be a good indication, but it is still not up-to-date with
record to audio, IMO:


https://wikis.utexas.edu/display/comm/DV+and+Audio+Storage+Requirements


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Swingman wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 11:18 AM, Han wrote:
>
>> Some time ago, I decided to can Carbonite because I didn't think it
>> was a good system. Too slow and cumbersome to do big backups over
>> the internet, even at my than 25/15 Mbps (My FiOS is now 35/35).
>
> IME, folks simply don't appreciate the difference between "offsite
> file backup/storage", and using a cloud service like Carbonite to
> backup a computer with the view toward "Restoring" it in case of a
> catastrophic failure.
>
> Two different uses, two totally different concepts ... I had no
> concern with, and no unrealistic expectations of, how long it takes
> for an initial upload to Carbonite, because it was configured to be
> done over a two week period as a background task with low priority.
> All subsequent file changes and additions are incremental background
> tasks done without noticeably impacting my use.
>
> ITMT, that computer was also backed up to a local device with the view
> to a "Restore" in the event of the catastrophic failure of a
> component.
> I would never consider relying upon "Restoring" a computer via
> Carbonite alone, except as a last resort, absolute emergency measure,
> because that is not what that particular storage methodology is good
> at.
> For $4/months, "offsite" storage, via Carbonite, is cheap for my
> benefit at ten times the price.

Many times the choice depends on basic ingenuity.

For example, if you can compress your precious data, you can send it to your
Gmail (or Yahoo or Hotmail) account as an attachement. Google, for example,
allows up to (I think) 8 gigs of email storage. You can sign up for 31 Gmail
accounts, one for each day of the month, and store 240 gigabytes of stuff.
Then, too, with 365 Gmail accounts... pretty soon we're talking terabytes!

On 4/19/2012 12:38 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/19/2012 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you! A good backup strategy will never come close to a
>>> terabyte for a good sized corporation, let alone any PC home
>>> applications.
>>
>> Even small businesses these days, particularly using media like videos
>> and multitrack recording for will run through a terabyte of data in
>> short order, and data that must be backed up with regard to version
>> control makes it even worse.
>>
>
> Oh stop Swing. What are you speaking about when you say videos and
> multitrack recording? Even in a recording environment, a terabyte is a lot
> of data. But - even if there are specialized industries that do indeed
> require that kind of storage, it's still very far from the topic at hand,
> which is more about PC storage - for the most of us. Again - even very
> significant corporations do not require this level of backup. The fact that
> a particular niche may require it is the anomoly.
>
>
>> This was a huge, and expensive, problem ten years when I was still
>> participating in the operation of a commercial recording studio, and
>> today's requirements are even more demanding.
>>
>> So no, in reality, you can't say that ...
>
> I absolutely can. Read what I wrote. I did not address niche industries
> like commercial recording. As I stated - good sized corporations and home
> PC's do not require this level of backup capacity.

I provided some examples of less than "good sized corporations" that
easily do exceed your data storage requirements. If you don't think that
"good sized corporations" don't have "niche" departments in their
structure that engender EXACTLY these kind of data storage requirements,
it makes your statement even more apparent that you're living in the past.

Welcome to the 21st century, just five years ago:

Notably, TheInfoPro's Wave-9 Survey of companies showed about 70% of
corporate data is duplicates. TheInfoPro did not survey small companies
or small home offices, the ranks of which represent 700,000 companies
with revenue of $200 million or less. But Robert Stevenson, managing
director at TheInfoPro, estimated those small companies have from 500GB
to 1TB of data today, and that they are experiencing the same
exponential data growth as larger companies.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9012364/A_zettabyte_by_2010_Corporate_data_grows_fiftyfold_in_three_years

And again, that was five years ago.

Cite some evidence to backup your "I absolutely can.". I still don't
think you can.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 17:30:55 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 4/19/2012 5:23 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> [email protected] (Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmpu5m$kta$2
>> @raid.furrfu.com:
>>
>>>
>>> I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
>>> I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
>>> I've heard, I will find that a bit small.
>>>
>>
>> I put a TB drive in my DVR around November. It's full now and starting to
>> delete things to make room. For some DVRs, that point is actually
>> considered "steady state" and not a problem.
>
>Just discovered a couple of nights ago that ALL my recorded woodworking
>videos, which somehow went from "do not erase", to "OK erase to make
>room", are now in the great bit bucket in the sky.
>
>The dangers of the boomerang generation moving back "home" and starting
>their own recording schemes, as if they were paying the bills. :(

Egad! Are you going to let the hogs take care of what's left of the
culprit? Have you master-passworded every electronics item in your
home and office yet?

--
That's the thing about needs. Sometimes, when you get them met,
you don't need them anymore. -- Michael Patrick King

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:49:36 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
>immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
>a new back up somewhere else.

I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
progresses.

Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
fares.

On 4/18/2012 9:14 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 3:40 PM, Leon wrote:
>> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
>
> How did you do those doors with arched rail ???
>
> I assume a router template...
>
> Very nice work...

Thank you Pat.

The glass door rails ans stiles are Domino reinforced lap joints. The
glass has square corners and I removed material straight across the back
of the rail 1/2" past the top of the arc. I used the same dado set that
I used to cut the rabbit, just moved the fence over 2~3 times.

On 4/18/2012 9:11 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 5:33 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>> Damnit, Leon.... don't make me come over there...
>
> As Robert has pointed out, a very decent digital camera
> can be had for well under $100. With a any decent camera
> sdram chip, you can have thousands of pictures.
>
> I have failed to do the same thing, as many of us have and
> I really regret it now.
>
> I have mentioned backup of computers many times on this forum.
>
> DO NOT lose the family history because of stupidity.
>
> A 16gb flash drive can be had for well under $20 and will hold
> thousands of pictures.
>
> Put your pictures on cdrom and flash drives....and print them out.

All of my pictures back up are on a cloud, Carbonite.

On 4/19/2012 2:19 PM, Leon wrote:

> Well I can see "today" how a terabyte is probably needed for a "pro"
> photographer, musician, cinematographer, and perhaps a few others. But
> for the most part I would imagine the average user will be well handled
> with less than 1 terabyte drive, just for data.

Yeah, right! .. that's what Bill Gates supposedly said about 640KB. :)

Wait until you start saving that O' Brother Where Art Thou" sequel, and
Ashley Judd HD movies for future viewing. The trend in storing these
data intensive formats is away from the optical to hard drive and/or
cloud storage.

A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
shrinking in its expectations as we speak.

Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
floppy disk storage in very short order.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/19/2012 12:32 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Currently I have a 128 GIG solid state primary c: drive that basically
>> has nothing but the OS and program files. I have a 1 terabyte data
>> drive With all my data that I want to keep, going back 25 years. I
>> have used "SEVEN" percent of the drive
>>
>
> Precisely! People have been talking about having terabytes of data when
> what they mean is that they have a terbye drive. I want to see the member
> in this forum who really has a terabyte of real date. It's cool to have big
> things (just ask your wife...), but like so many other things, this stuff
> can get out of hand. Sometimes technology and people who think they
> understand it get out of sync with such fundamentals as Computer Science and
> diciplines.
>

Well I can see "today" how a terabyte is probably needed for a "pro"
photographer, musician, cinematographer, and perhaps a few others. But
for the most part I would imagine the average user will be well handled
with less than 1 terabyte drive, just for data.

That all changes once you start backing that all up and keeping several
versions of the data or versions of images.

For instance Windows 7 is doing routine back ups of my data in the back
ground. It is backing up to a 500 gig drive. That drive filled up in
the last year with multiple copies of my "stuff" I had to go in and
delete several of those back ups and if this what others are running
into they should probably do the same.

On 4/18/2012 9:48 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 9:14 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
>> On 4/17/2012 3:40 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> For the last 8 weeks I have been working on 3 book cases for a customer.
>>
>> How did you do those doors with arched rail ???
>>
>> I assume a router template...
>>
>> Very nice work...
>
> Thank you Pat.
>
> The glass door rails ans stiles are Domino reinforced lap joints. The
> glass has square corners and I removed material straight across the back
> of the rail 1/2" past the top of the arc. I used the same dado set that
> I used to cut the rabbit, just moved the fence over 2~3 times.

I posted a PDF file on ABPW of the drawing. Keep in mind that the
drawing does not show the two floating tenon/Dominos that reinforce that
joint.

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:36:11 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 4/18/2012 12:59 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>\
>> I have been at this business too long and honestly look back at some
>> of my finished work and wish I had taken just 15 minutes (or less... )
>> to snap a few pictures for me to look at later.
>
>
>I'm waiting for Festool to come out with one that works with their Dust
>Extractors.
>
>Much quieter ...

<g> Aw, hell, Swingy. Just tell the camera to stop using the "make a
silly 35mm film shutter noise when you take a picture" function. It'll
quiet right down.

--
You can either hold yourself up to the unrealistic standards of others,
or ignore them and concentrate on being happy with yourself as you are.
-- Jeph Jacques

On 4/20/2012 7:27 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 06:30:23 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
>> them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
>> watch any thing more than once, other than
>
> I did that for awhile, but came to the conclusion that it was a waste
> of time and money to burn a DVD. Rarely, did I ever watch that DVD
> again and I had to deal with the sorting and storage of a whole pile
> of DVD's.
>
> It was much easier just to leave a show or a movie on the hard drive.
> If I decided that I'd never watch it again, DELETE and it's gone. The
> operative word here is ~ convenience.

The problem I have with leaving them on the DVR is that I have had
Direct TV and Uverse. If the unit has a problem, you get an exchange
unit and you loose every thing. How many times did I get an exchange
with with Direct TV. at least 4 times in the first 2 years and once so
far in the first year with Uverse.

On 4/18/2012 12:59 AM, [email protected] wrote:
\
> I have been at this business too long and honestly look back at some
> of my finished work and wish I had taken just 15 minutes (or less... )
> to snap a few pictures for me to look at later.


I'm waiting for Festool to come out with one that works with their Dust
Extractors.

Much quieter ...


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop