So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
project, I have a question.
For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
this was a generally stupid design choice.
(Next version will be dadoed).
--
Drew Lawson | Savage bed foot-warmer
| of purest feline ancestry
| Look out little furry folk
| it's the all-night working cat
On 4/18/2012 1:06 PM, John Shear wrote:
> Ya, I have Sketchup, though I don't know what to do with it yet. ;)
> I will be going through Bob Lang's stuff hopefully tonight and get his
> book. I appreciate all the detail advice.
>
> John S.
>
> On 04/18/2012 12:36 PM, Leon wrote:
>> If you have Sketch up I can send you the file and you can explore all
>> day. ;~)
>>
>> Just let me know.
If I remove spam from your address will you get the sketchup file?
On 4/18/2012 9:31 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
>> project, I have a question.
>>
>> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
>> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>>
>> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
>> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
>> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
>> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>>
>> (Next version will be dadoed).
>>
>
> 1/2" wide 1/4" deep and use small staples over brads. The staples are
> much stronger in my opinion and don't blow out as bad as brads.
Absolutely. That's all I use (18 ga 1/4" crown staples, fired from the
same, dual purpose, brad nailer) for attaching backs to most cabinets.
Each crown staple has at least twice the holding power of a single brad,
and if appearance is an issue you can always use some thin trim in a
judicious manner.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/18/2012 11:19 AM, John Shear wrote:
> So, you used frame & panel construction for the back instead of a sheet
> of ply? Cool! Is there just the intermediate stile, or are there also
> intermediate rails? I can't quite tell. I don't suppose you have a pic
> or drawing to share.
It's Leon, John ... trust me, that boy does nothing without a SketchUp
drawing. So if you ask him nicely ... :)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Geez, in addition to gluing I fasten down with washer head screws. I
guess that's a little overkill, eh? But my projects have been more
utilitarian in nature and not fine furniture (yet). I'm lurking here to
find out the reasonable way to do things.
--
John S.
On 04/18/2012 09:31 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
>> project, I have a question.
>>
>> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
>> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>>
>> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
>> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
>> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
>> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>>
>> (Next version will be dadoed).
>>
>
> 1/2" wide 1/4" deep and use small staples over brads. The staples are
> much stronger in my opinion and don't blow out as bad as brads.
>
So, you used frame & panel construction for the back instead of a sheet
of ply? Cool! Is there just the intermediate stile, or are there also
intermediate rails? I can't quite tell. I don't suppose you have a pic
or drawing to share.
John S.
On 04/17/2012 06:31 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 5:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
>> project, I have a question.
>>
>> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
>> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>>
>> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
>> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
>> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
>> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>>
>> (Next version will be dadoed).
>>
>
> Like Swingman indicated, 1/2"
>
> And this is how I do them
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7088836297/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7088836699/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7088837069/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> On the backs of these, upper and lower
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
Ya, I have Sketchup, though I don't know what to do with it yet. ;)
I will be going through Bob Lang's stuff hopefully tonight and get his
book. I appreciate all the detail advice.
John S.
On 04/18/2012 12:36 PM, Leon wrote:
> If you have Sketch up I can send you the file and you can explore all
> day. ;~)
>
> Just let me know.
Yep, got it.
On 04/18/2012 01:33 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 1:06 PM, John Shear wrote:
>> Ya, I have Sketchup, though I don't know what to do with it yet. ;)
>> I will be going through Bob Lang's stuff hopefully tonight and get his
>> book. I appreciate all the detail advice.
>>
>> John S.
>>
>> On 04/18/2012 12:36 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> If you have Sketch up I can send you the file and you can explore all
>>> day. ;~)
>>>
>>> Just let me know.
>
> If I remove spam from your address will you get the sketchup file?
On 4/18/2012 11:13 AM, John Shear wrote:
> Geez, in addition to gluing I fasten down with washer head screws. I
> guess that's a little overkill, eh? But my projects have been more
> utilitarian in nature and not fine furniture (yet). I'm lurking here to
> find out the reasonable way to do things.
>
> --
> John S.
>
> On 04/18/2012 09:31 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
>> On 4/17/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>>> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
>>> project, I have a question.
>>>
>>> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
>>> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>>>
>>> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
>>> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
>>> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
>>> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>>>
>>> (Next version will be dadoed).
>>>
>>
>> 1/2" wide 1/4" deep and use small staples over brads. The staples are
>> much stronger in my opinion and don't blow out as bad as brads.
>>
Well I always assume that I might want to change a back some day, to
another contrasting shade and or replace with a mirror. I screw my
backs in.
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:13:01 -0500, John Shear <[email protected]>
>Geez, in addition to gluing I fasten down with washer head screws. I
>guess that's a little overkill, eh? But my projects have been more
>utilitarian in nature and not fine furniture (yet). I'm lurking here to
>find out the reasonable way to do things.
Not overkill. I don't use washer head screws, but I do use regular
oval head screws. The advantage being is the easy removal of said
screws and the back whenever necessary.
Called me old fashioned if you like.
I'm from t'other side of the pond, so won't mind.
Whatever happened to panel or moulding pins and a pin (toffee) hammer? I
have used these on more delicate work.
I imagine these would work perfectly well in the work you describe.
Could be wrong. Frequently am.
Never used a nail gun. Hope I never will. Also hope to see brass screws used
in my coffin.
Nick.
"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
> project, I have a question.
>
> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>
> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>
> (Next version will be dadoed).
>
> --
> Drew Lawson | Savage bed foot-warmer
> | of purest feline ancestry
> | Look out little furry folk
> | it's the all-night working cat
On 4/17/2012 5:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
> project, I have a question.
>
> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>
> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
> this was a generally stupid design choice.
Generally about half the thickness of the stock ... 1/2" in your case.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/18/2012 12:36 PM, Leon wrote:
> Take a look here of cabinets with mid rails.
>
> The top units have 4 glass doors and have a fixed mid shelf with mid
> rails front and back. The bottom closed in cabinets with top drawers
> have a mid rail only on the front to separate the drawer and bottom
> doors. The bottom back face frame has no mid rail.
>
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6194892097/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> Bottom cabinet during glue up. If you look closely you can see the dados
> in the front and back face frames.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6194892097/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
>
>
>
OoPs
Top cabinets
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6485169773/in/photostream/lightbox/
On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/18/2012 12:17 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Well I always assume that I might want to change a back some day, to
>> another contrasting shade and or replace with a mirror. I screw my backs
>> in.
>
> I've never glued a back in for the same reason. Nails are removable. On
> the other hand, I don't think I ever removed, replaced or otherwise
> touched a back once installed.
>
I used to brad many years ago And I don't recall why I switched but I
think I had to remove a back once, i don't recall why. Its kinda like
you and your reason for liking Philips head screws. Screws are easier
to remove than nails.
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:39:15 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Absolutely. That's all I use (18 ga 1/4" crown staples, fired from the
>same, dual purpose, brad nailer) for attaching backs to most cabinets.
And if I may ask, what make/model of dual purpose brad nailer might
that be?
On 4/18/2012 11:19 AM, John Shear wrote:
> So, you used frame & panel construction for the back instead of a sheet
> of ply? Cool! Is there just the intermediate stile, or are there also
> intermediate rails? I can't quite tell. I don't suppose you have a pic
> or drawing to share.
>
> John S.
If you have Sketch up I can send you the file and you can explore all
day. ;~)
Just let me know.
Actually John I have gravitated to a front AND back face frame on my
last several cabinets, 10 so far.
Both face frames receive the cabinet sides, tops, and bottoms with
dado's. And the tops and bottoms of the sides receive the top and
bottom of the cabinets in dado's also. This makes for an extremely
ridged case even with out a back. For the front face frames I attach
the rails to the stiles with floating tenons/Dominoes. Other than the
mortise and tenons these are simple butt joints.
For the back face frames I use a lap joint reinforced with the Dominoes
also. Similar to a half lap joint but 1/2" on one side and 1/4" on the
other and I cut rabbits on all inside sides of the back face frames to
receive the back 1/4" plywood panels.
I screw the 1/4" plywood back panels into those rabbits with 1/2" long
self tapping washer head screws.
Yes, there are both outer stiles and a centered face frame stiles in
most cases and in some cases a mid face frame rail if i want a fixed mid
shelf.
Take a look here of cabinets with mid rails.
The top units have 4 glass doors and have a fixed mid shelf with mid
rails front and back. The bottom closed in cabinets with top drawers
have a mid rail only on the front to separate the drawer and bottom
doors. The bottom back face frame has no mid rail.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6194892097/in/photostream/lightbox/
Bottom cabinet during glue up. If you look closely you can see the
dados in the front and back face frames.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6194892097/in/photostream/lightbox/
On 4/17/2012 5:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
> project, I have a question.
>
> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>
> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>
> (Next version will be dadoed).
>
Like Swingman indicated, 1/2"
And this is how I do them
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7088836297/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7088836699/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7088837069/in/photostream/lightbox/
On the backs of these, upper and lower
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/7087787783/in/photostream/lightbox/
"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
> project, I have a question.
>
> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>
> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>
> (Next version will be dadoed).
This could make assembly interesting.
Art
>
> --
> Drew Lawson | Savage bed foot-warmer
> | of purest feline ancestry
> | Look out little furry folk
> | it's the all-night working cat
In article <[email protected]>
"Artemus" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> (Next version will be dadoed).
>
>This could make assembly interesting.
Maybe I'm using the terms wrong (even aside from whether dado is
only cross-grain). Groove all around, like a drawer bottom. Slide
in the back. Attach the last of the sides, as joinery of choice
allows. I'd as soon have dovetailed the top, which would do this
fine, I think. It is just that I have yet to cut my first dovetail.
Many useful mistakes learned on this project. At least that's what
I try to tell myself.
--
Drew Lawson | I told them we had learned to change
| our swordblades into plows.
| I told them they should learn from us
| what should I tell them now?
On 4/17/2012 7:33 PM, Nick wrote:
> Called me old fashioned if you like.
> I'm from t'other side of the pond, so won't mind.
> Whatever happened to panel or moulding pins and a pin (toffee) hammer? I
> have used these on more delicate work.
> I imagine these would work perfectly well in the work you describe.
> Could be wrong. Frequently am.
> Never used a nail gun. Hope I never will. Also hope to see brass screws used
> in my coffin.
>
> Nick.
>
> "Drew Lawson"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
>> project, I have a question.
>>
>> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
>> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>>
>> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
>> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
>> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
>> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>>
>> (Next version will be dadoed).
>>
>> --
>> Drew Lawson | Savage bed foot-warmer
>> | of purest feline ancestry
>> | Look out little furry folk
>> | it's the all-night working cat
>
>
Nail guns have added a whole new way for the wood work to go to the
hospital. You can shoot nails into your hand, your arm, and fingers.
If you try real hard you can shoot them into you assistant.
You really should try one. ;-)
I live in North Carolina and have never had one. Like you I can put
nails in more accurately with an hammer of a size appropriate to the task.
I watched the man build my garden shed and in there place that
significantly speed up the construction process.
In article <[email protected]>
Keith Nuttle <[email protected]> writes:
>
>Nail guns have added a whole new way for the wood work to go to the
>hospital. You can shoot nails into your hand, your arm, and fingers.
>If you try real hard you can shoot them into you assistant.
>
>You really should try one. ;-)
Let me attest that they let me prove what I didn't know much faster
that I otherwise would have.
I considered a hammer and brads/tacks for the back on this thing,
but was intimidated by my lack of speed while the glue set up.
That's largely filed under: beginner with no experience on how long
the open time really is.
This wasn't just a "brads until the glue sets" thing. I want the
back on this case to protect against the sides bowing out, so want
a connectuon stronger than I know i can expect from the glue. I
also know that means I should have a better design to avoid bowing.
The thing is, at every snag I stop, walk away and redesign the whole
damned thing. As a result, this project has been procrastinated
longer than I'd like to admit. That wouldn't be a problem, except
that this is supposed to be for my wife to use. She is very patient,
but the delay is becoming a joke that is only funny to one of us.
In hindsight, my first project that is too big to throw across the
room shouldn't have been for someone else who is waiting.
--
Drew Lawson | We were taking a vote when
| the ground came up and hit us.
| -- Cylon warrior
On 4/17/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
> project, I have a question.
>
> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>
> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>
> (Next version will be dadoed).
>
1/2" wide 1/4" deep and use small staples over brads. The staples are
much stronger in my opinion and don't blow out as bad as brads.
In article <[email protected]>
[email protected] (Drew Lawson) writes:
>So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
>project, I have a question.
Before I get another chance to forget, thanks to all that I haven't
already thanked.
Much to learn. Much to do.
--
Drew Lawson | It's not enough to be alive
| when your future's been deferred
In article <[email protected]>
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>
>Take a look here of cabinets with mid rails.
>
>The top units have 4 glass doors and have a fixed mid shelf with mid
>rails front and back. The bottom closed in cabinets with top drawers
>have a mid rail only on the front to separate the drawer and bottom
>doors. The bottom back face frame has no mid rail.
>
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6194892097/in/photostream/lightbox/
If I look at your stuff too much, I'll get too intimidated and go
back to daydreaming on the couch.
When I hit the lottery, I want you to do my kitchen.
--
Drew Lawson | What you own is your own kingdom
| What you do is your own glory
| What you love is your own power
| What you live is your own story
On 4/17/2012 6:58 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 5:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
>> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
>> project, I have a question.
>>
>> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
>> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
I generally go 1/2" or 3/8ths. 1/4" is too small.
>> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
>> Similar suspect is my nailer aim.
Hah. Worse tool a cabinet maker can own is a nailer. I've installed
tons and tons of backs using just nails, always wishing I had a nailer.
I never bought one knowing that I really didn't need one, and I would
surely get myself in trouble using it. Well, finally I bought one of
those Harbor fright air things that shoot pins and staples. Too cheap
to pass up. Works fine, and yes, I've over used it, and finally got to
pin a back to a bookcase, a utility shelf thing I made for the basement.
Yes, a managed to shoot a brad or two through the side, and when I
build a non utility piece that needs a back, I will try like hell NOT to
use the air gun... Note I said try, as they are hard NOT to use, very
easy and quick, and the government would do well to ban them from
cabinet shops for those too stupid/lazy to not use them, me for example:-)
Guess which step I didn't make
>> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
>> this was a generally stupid design choice.
No, it's not stupid at all, it's how it is normally done. 1/4" is a
little small, and nail guns are dangerous.
> Generally about half the thickness of the stock ... 1/2" in your case.
1x stock is normally 3/4", half would be 3/8ths. With 3/4" I usually go
3/8ths and a bump.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/18/2012 12:17 PM, Leon wrote:
> Well I always assume that I might want to change a back some day, to
> another contrasting shade and or replace with a mirror. I screw my backs
> in.
I've never glued a back in for the same reason. Nails are removable.
On the other hand, I don't think I ever removed, replaced or otherwise
touched a back once installed.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/17/2012 6:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
> So, having messed up (not destroyed, but still not happy) my current
> project, I have a question.
>
> For a fairly normal bookcase type case with a rabbetted back (1x
> stock, 1/4" plywood), how wide of a rabbet would you cut?
>
> 1/4 inch seemed reasonable until I saw how many brads I blew out.
> Similar suspect is my nailer aim. Guess which step I didn't make
> extra pieces for to use as practice? But I'm also curious whether
> this was a generally stupid design choice.
>
> (Next version will be dadoed).
>
As others have posted, half way will usually do the job although I have
gone wider with no problem. In many cases (yes, I know) it is not necessary
to use any more mechanical fasteners than those required to keep things
square and the back and sides in contact until glue dries. On occasion,
just to change things up, I've skipped the sheetgoods back entirely and
done something fancier http://johnmcgaw.com/image/ch-back.jpg although as I
get older I seem to be veering toward the cheap-n-dirty approach. My aim
with a brad nailer isn't all that good either, if it is any consolation,
and I once shot a 1-1/2" brad through the edge of a piece of stock and into
my thumb.
On 4/18/2012 6:28 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:39:15 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Absolutely. That's all I use (18 ga 1/4" crown staples, fired from the
>> same, dual purpose, brad nailer) for attaching backs to most cabinets.
>
> And if I may ask, what make/model of dual purpose brad nailer might
> that be?
This particular one is a Delta DBS-125. I use it mostly for staples
because I have an 18ga Bostich that I keep loaded with brads, but it
shoots brads equally as well
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop