On Mar 26, 3:48 pm, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:
> charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> > suggestions to improve the instructions are welcomed. My e-mail
> > has been acting up for a couple of days so if I don't get back to
> > you within a day or two from when you sent me something post
> > it here and I'll get it.
>
> Points made in emails:
>
> Not on Klausz's video, but from painful experience. Step 9 middle of
> the page, in the parenthetical following "next turn the board over",
> I'd suggest adding. "Sweep the board and benchtop to make sure none of
> the chips removed in the previous step get clamped under the workpiece
> to mar it."
> ...
Also Chips and sawdust thus clamped earlier during layout
can also cause misalignments.
--
FF
So if you saw the video I'm guessing you've bought it,
you'll never get everything he shows you on that tape
in one, two or even three viewings. So, with these
pages on the bench you can have a handcut dovetailed
drawer in about an hour the first time. Don't worry
if the dovetails aren't perfect - the drawer will still
hold together - without glue. MAKE SURE YOU MARK
THE WASTE AREAS - it's really, really easy to get
cutting and chopping and take out what should stay
and leave what should be removed. DAMHIKT ; )
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer0.html
charlie b
alexy wrote:
> LOL! Made some "shovetails" while practicing last night. Marking with
> an "x" is helpful, but anyone who thinks that is a foolproof method
> sadly underestimates me as a fool! <g>
Beta testers trying to idiot proof their software loved me and I've
come up with amazing ways to screw up. With software you can
just reboot. With woodworking - well lets say it can involve the
loss of blood.
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/OOPS/OOPS1.html
(feel better now?)
> Great pages. I have enjoyed them in the past, but have just bought the
> Klausz video, and now have some questions/sugggestions. Will email
> some, but want to ask one in this public forum in case anyone else can
> shed light on it.
Much appreciated. What's clear to me may not be clear to someone
else. What I assume everyone knows and isn't worth noting is exactly
what I'm trying to avoid with the instructions. Better to have too
much info than leave out something important/critical. So any
suggestions to improve the instructions are welcomed. My e-mail
has been acting up for a couple of days so if I don't get back to
you within a day or two from when you sent me something post
it here and I'll get it.
> When I first saw the advice in Charlie's pages to cut from the inside
> of the drawer, my reaction was "okay, this is probably an area where
> Charlie is deviating from Klausz, since Charlie uses a Japanese saw,
> and cutting from the inside means that the "clean side" of the cut
> will be on the show face. But now that I have the video, I see that
> Klausz is using a western saw but cutting from the inside. He doesn't
> explain it. Anyone know why he does this? I can think of at least a
> couple of reasons to saw from the show face when using a western saw:
> 1) Tearout, while minimal, will be in the inside.
> 2) The most critical fit will be the outside, and it's easier to
> follow a line you see (remember, Klausz doesn't use the mirror trick
> or mark out the perpendicular line across the end-grain, but just
> counts on his eye to saw perpendicular to the face.)
Interesting question. When I was doing the instructions based on
the Klausz video I didn't question Why, I was focusing on What and
How.
So - start with the saw - western vs japanese - push vs pull and
where tear out/split out might occur.
The western saw has fewer teeth per inch than the japanese saw
and simple teeth - one bevel cutting edge, while the japanese
saw has a multi-edged tooth and multiple bevel cutting edges.
The western saw has to be thicker than the japanese saw because
when cutting it's in compression rather than in tension like the
japanese.
The handle of a western saw encourages grabbing it like your life
depended on holding on to it and pushing it down and through the
wood, brute forcing it through. (If you grab it like you're holding
a baby's hand and let it do what it's designed to do it works a
whole
lot better). Japanese saw handles don't let you use a death grip
and and don't lend themselves to pushing the saw down into the
wood.
The western saw teeth have more set than the japanese saw
and because western saw kerf is wider than a japanese saw
it's more prone to tear out on the the far side of the cut,
the japanese saw on the near side of the cut and, if it happens,
is more like the "wire" you get on a cutting edge hile you
sharpen it.
So it comes down to the affect on the outside, visible part
of the joint. But we're talking about cutting the pins and
using the "pins first, mark the tails from the pins method".
The pin layout lines are approximate locations, not critical
locations. What IS important is that the front and back
(inside and outside) are
1. straight and square to the end of the board
2. stop at the scribe lines for the bottom of the sockets
on BOTH faces.
I think his pins face orientation is about his Monkey Story
and YOU are the Nut. The Monkey Story reminds you that
the inside of the pin socket should be narrower than the
outside of the pin socket and on the inside of the drawer.
But you're absolutely right about the outside face being
critical - to the look of the joint, not so much its function.
Cutting passed the scribe line for the bottom of the socket
on the inside ain't critical - on the outside it is.
Should probably change the instructions to have the outside
of the pins facing you as you saw. Makes sense. Let's
see if anyone else comes up with a good reason to saw
facing the outside of the pins.
charlie b
alexy wrote:
> Points made in emails:
>
> Not on Klausz's video, but from painful experience. Step 9 middle of
> the page, in the parenthetical following "next turn the board over",
> I'd suggest adding. "Sweep the board and benchtop to make sure none of
> the chips removed in the previous step get clamped under the workpiece
> to mar it."
Good idea. Added
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer9.html
> Mirror trick: You might want to point out that Klausz advocates
> holding the saw level and perpendicular to the face of the drawer, but
> for those without his years of experience, the mirror trick provides a
> way to keep aware of what is happening on the other side.
Mr. Klausz's recomendation added
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer6A.html
> Page 13, penultimate paragraph, you initially say to drive the TAILS
> home with a wedge, but then in the next sentence talk about repeating
> on each PIN on all corners. Also, note typo on "drawer".
Typo fixed.
When tapping the joint to seat it, you can use a softer wood which
will dent if the opposing part of the joint seats a little high
Regarding the monkey story - it was included because Mr. Klausz
uses it in the video and it's The Monkey And The Banana (not nut).
It's just a way of remembering which face of the front and back
parts have the pins' narrow part of the socket for the tails.
Added an illustration which may help a little
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer6.html
Thanks for the feed back. Hope the revised pages have all of
your stuff.
charlie b
Neil Larson wrote:
> I have to thank who ever it was that posted the message about this guy. I
> found a couple of his videos (yes, real live tapes, lol) and he is
> absolutley amazing. Watching him make hand cut dovetails for a drawer with
> only the carcass for measurments astounded me.
>
> Thanks again for the post.
>
> Neil Larson
>
>
I finally got around to having some time
in the shop simply to play today.
So I got some scrap and laid it out the
way Frank does. And put it in my mind
that I'll make a dovetail a day until
they work the way I want them to.
I'm not expecting that I'll make a joint
as good as Frank does - that's not the
point. What I do expect to do is get a
joint that I'm happy with and that I'll
be proud to show.
While I was dinkiing round with today's
joint, I found myself thinking: yaknow,
the depth would be a lot easier to
control with a straight bit in the
router. Yes it would, for both the pins
and the tails. And shit, I've got that
monster just sitting there. Plus it
would be a helluva lot faster. Why not?
Because that's also not the point.
So then, what is the point? I think
charlie was alluding to it all the way
through the previous thread on dovetails
and Klausz. Yes, it can be done with a
router. Yes it will be consistent and
fast. (The downside to fast is that you
can fuck up fast too.)
I see this as a two-sided goal. One is
to get the satisfaction of doing
something properly by hand that has been
done by hand for hundreds of years. The
other is to speed up the process.
Today's joint took me a long time, and
in the end it really wasn't very good.
The next one should be a bit faster and
hopefully a bit better in fit.
There's something else, beyond
satisfaction and speed. It's going to
teach me to slow down some, think more
about what I'm doing and do one single
task the right way.
Thanks charlie.
Tanus
--
This is not really a sig.
http://users.compzone.ca/george/shop/
charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> suggestions to improve the instructions are welcomed. My e-mail
> has been acting up for a couple of days so if I don't get back to
> you within a day or two from when you sent me something post
> it here and I'll get it.
Points made in emails:
Not on Klausz's video, but from painful experience. Step 9 middle of
the page, in the parenthetical following "next turn the board over",
I'd suggest adding. "Sweep the board and benchtop to make sure none of
the chips removed in the previous step get clamped under the workpiece
to mar it."
Mirror trick: You might want to point out that Klausz advocates
holding the saw level and perpendicular to the face of the drawer, but
for those without his years of experience, the mirror trick provides a
way to keep aware of what is happening on the other side.
Page 13, penultimate paragraph, you initially say to drive the TAILS
home with a wedge, but then in the next sentence talk about repeating
on each PIN on all corners. Also, note typo on "drawer".
>> When I first saw the advice in Charlie's pages to cut from the inside
>> of the drawer, my reaction was "okay, this is probably an area where
>> Charlie is deviating from Klausz, since Charlie uses a Japanese saw,
>> and cutting from the inside means that the "clean side" of the cut
>> will be on the show face. But now that I have the video, I see that
>> Klausz is using a western saw but cutting from the inside. He doesn't
>> explain it. Anyone know why he does this? I can think of at least a
>> couple of reasons to saw from the show face when using a western saw:
>> 1) Tearout, while minimal, will be in the inside.
>> 2) The most critical fit will be the outside, and it's easier to
>> follow a line you see (remember, Klausz doesn't use the mirror trick
>> or mark out the perpendicular line across the end-grain, but just
>> counts on his eye to saw perpendicular to the face.)
>
> Interesting question. When I was doing the instructions based on
> the Klausz video I didn't question Why, I was focusing on What and
> How.
>
> So - start with the saw - western vs japanese - push vs pull and
> where tear out/split out might occur.
>
> The western saw has fewer teeth per inch than the japanese saw
> and simple teeth - one bevel cutting edge, while the japanese
> saw has a multi-edged tooth and multiple bevel cutting edges.
>
> The western saw has to be thicker than the japanese saw because
> when cutting it's in compression rather than in tension like the
> japanese.
>
> The handle of a western saw encourages grabbing it like your life
> depended on holding on to it and pushing it down and through the
> wood, brute forcing it through. (If you grab it like you're holding
> a baby's hand and let it do what it's designed to do it works a
>whole
> lot better).
Another way I have seen this expressed is to pretend that you are
holding a live bird, firm enough that it doesn't escape, but not to
crush it. Jeff Gorman suggests an alternative grip to "enforce" this
more relaxed grip.
> Japanese saw handles don't let you use a death grip
> and and don't lend themselves to pushing the saw down into the
> wood.
>
> The western saw teeth have more set than the japanese saw
> and because western saw kerf is wider than a japanese saw
> it's more prone to tear out on the the far side of the cut,
> the japanese saw on the near side of the cut and, if it happens,
> is more like the "wire" you get on a cutting edge hile you
> sharpen it.
Don't disagree with anything you have said above (except for the
tendency for tearout). But I think the preference for western versus
Japanese style saw is highly subjective, and could devolve into a
religious discussion, so I'd suggest limiting this to your tools
section. Nothing in the rest of the write-up is dependent on that
choice. I personally like the western style, although it is harder to
learn, and getting acceptable results for modest dollars is a problem.
>
> So it comes down to the affect on the outside, visible part
> of the joint. But we're talking about cutting the pins and
> using the "pins first, mark the tails from the pins method".
> The pin layout lines are approximate locations, not critical
> locations.
But if I'm not mistaken, Klausz also saws the tails from the inside.
> What IS important is that the front and back
> (inside and outside) are
> 1. straight and square to the end of the board
> 2. stop at the scribe lines for the bottom of the sockets
> on BOTH faces.
>
> I think his pins face orientation is about his Monkey Story
> and YOU are the Nut. The Monkey Story reminds you that
> the inside of the pin socket should be narrower than the
> outside of the pin socket and on the inside of the drawer.
This story did nothing for me. I find it much easier to just think of
the mechanics of how the joint locks. But different strokes...
> But you're absolutely right about the outside face being
> critical - to the look of the joint, not so much its function.
> Cutting passed the scribe line for the bottom of the socket
> on the inside ain't critical - on the outside it is.
>
> Should probably change the instructions to have the outside
> of the pins facing you as you saw. Makes sense. Let's
> see if anyone else comes up with a good reason to saw
> facing the outside of the pins.
One other thought. This video is "Dovetail a Drawer", and Klausz uses
white pine, a very compressible wood. I wonder if his technique is the
same if he is making dovetails for a show surface of a carcass, out of
a hard wood.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Part of my 24+ years of trying to get Govt contractors to provide
maintenance procedures both new sailors and experienced shore tech's
could use included a new concept to me anyway that was well received.
We called it the indentured presentation, a numeric for What was to be
done and an alpha indentured showing HOW to do it. Little explanation
was need and both levels were very appreciative! Quick scan down the
numeric's highlighted the appropriate step for entry.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 23:23:15 -0800, charlieb <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Much appreciated. What's clear to me may not be clear to someone
> else. What I assume everyone knows and isn't worth noting is exactly
> what I'm trying to avoid with the instructions. Better to have too
> much info than leave out something important/critical. So any
> suggestions to improve the instructions are welcomed. My e-mail
> has been acting up for a couple of days so if I don't get back to
> you within a day or two from when you sent me something post
> it here and I'll get it.
charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Mirror trick: You might want to point out that Klausz advocates
>> holding the saw level and perpendicular to the face of the drawer, but
>> for those without his years of experience, the mirror trick provides a
>> way to keep aware of what is happening on the other side.
>
> Mr. Klausz's recomendation added
>http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer6A.html
I have to laugh at his explanation: "horizontal, square to the board,
line up with the line, and cut. You pay attention to those details,
you have no problem."
Easy for him to say!!
>
>> Page 13, penultimate paragraph, you initially say to drive the TAILS
>> home with a wedge, but then in the next sentence talk about repeating
>> on each PIN on all corners. Also, note typo on "drawer".
>
> Typo fixed.
I don't think the revised page got uploaded to your site. still says
"pins" and "crawer"
>
> When tapping the joint to seat it, you can use a softer wood which
> will dent if the opposing part of the joint seats a little high
>
> Regarding the monkey story - it was included because Mr. Klausz
> uses it in the video
Understood. I was not criticizing the story or your presentation of
it, just commenting on different learning styles of different people;
with this not being on that worked for ME.
> and it's The Monkey And The Banana (not nut).
Apple in the DVD I have, although I think banana makes more sense.
> It's just a way of remembering which face of the front and back
> parts have the pins' narrow part of the socket for the tails.
> Added an illustration which may help a little
This is an enhancement to the explanation. Not the way I will remember
the direction, but others probably will.
>
>http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer6.html
>
> Thanks for the feed back. Hope the revised pages have all of
> your stuff.
Yep, except that the new page 13 didn't get uploaded.
And re-viewing, I think I see a reason (though not compelling in my
mind) for working from the inside. And it is one aspect of the process
not caught in your write-up. That is putting the first half pin BELOW
the groove for the bottom, so that the groove shows in the front,
where it ill be covered by the applied drawer front. Similarly, in
cutting tails at the back of the drawer sides, there should be a
vertical cut at the top of the groove, where the bottom of the half
pin at the back will go. Effectively, there is a rectangular "tail" at
the bottom of the drawer at back.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
>MAKE SURE YOU MARK
>THE WASTE AREAS - it's really, really easy to get
>cutting and chopping and take out what should stay
>and leave what should be removed.
LOL! Made some "shovetails" while practicing last night. Marking with
an "x" is helpful, but anyone who thinks that is a foolproof method
sadly underestimates me as a fool! <g>
>
>http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer0.html
Great pages. I have enjoyed them in the past, but have just bought the
Klausz video, and now have some questions/sugggestions. Will email
some, but want to ask one in this public forum in case anyone else can
shed light on it.
When I first saw the advice in Charlie's pages to cut from the inside
of the drawer, my reaction was "okay, this is probably an area where
Charlie is deviating from Klausz, since Charlie uses a Japanese saw,
and cutting from the inside means that the "clean side" of the cut
will be on the show face. But now that I have the video, I see that
Klausz is using a western saw but cutting from the inside. He doesn't
explain it. Anyone know why he does this? I can think of at least a
couple of reasons to saw from the show face when using a western saw:
1) Tearout, while minimal, will be in the inside.
2) The most critical fit will be the outside, and it's easier to
follow a line you see (remember, Klausz doesn't use the mirror trick
or mark out the perpendicular line across the end-grain, but just
counts on his eye to saw perpendicular to the face.)
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.