Can't drill a straight hole?

On Mar 5, 10:55=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:91ef18bc-4478-4674-9d0c-0bcdf9470906@l14g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 2, 8:33 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
>
> > > Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
> > > steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- bits are
> > > usually
> > > tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>
> > Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
> > I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)
>
> Would an Enco vernier count as a cite? =A0Mine shows
> the butt end of a 1/2" bit to read 0.005" narrower than
> the working end.
>
> On a "brand new" never used drill bit? =A0Bits do wear.

I probably have all of one hour's use put into that
1/2" twist bit over the past 10 years. The yellow
titanium coating is still intact. My 1/2" brad
points see the most use, followed by 1/2" Forstners
where I need a clean, flat bottomed pocket hole.

On Mar 5, 1:21=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> So it's smaller at the end that gets put in the chuck and bigger at the
> cutting tip?
> That would make sense. =A0 Now you have me thinking.
>
> So where's the good Father Haskell to clarify?

Verify if you like. Drill a test hole in a piece of aluminum
plate. Use the bit for a gauge, see which end has
the most play in the test hole. 0.005" should be
easily detectable by feel.

"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:fc8249b9-699f-4925-93d0-bbb7377e0918@y31g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 2, 10:05 pm, "Edward Hennessey" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
> >> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
> >> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square --
> >> bits are
> >> usually
> >> tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>
> > Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
> > I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)
>
> That is contrary to my understanding with twist drill
> bits. They are not exact, which is why machinists
> will slightly underdrill and then ream a hole for
> precision metal work.
>
> Tapered drills certainly exist for special purposes. But,
> ask
> yourself, what would be the reason to slightly taper
> all drills?

Same reason all handsaws are either set or taper ground.

If the bit tapered back from the tip chip evacuation would jam and burn the
insides of the hole.

"Puddin' Man" wrote:

> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill
> press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a
> straight
> hole to save my soul.
----------------------------------
What is diameter and depth of hole?

Lew

Puddin' Man wrote:
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill
> press. Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a
> straight hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable
> square, I eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as
> close to 90 degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then
> start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the
> hole, going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about
> 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a
> little, and veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I
> know, there may be lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight
> hole? :-)

Using a twist drill bit? Don't.

Use a brad point or forstner...something that cuts with spurs on the outside
rather than on the tip. An auger bit would work too but not (well) in a DP
as the screw point will tend to pull the chuck right out of the DP.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Puddin' Man wrote:
>
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a straight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little, and
> veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may be
> lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-)
>
> Thx,
> Will
>
> "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
>


Drill from one side half way,then from the other side drill right
through, the ends of the hole are where you want them, At the centre of
the wood the hole may end up a bit oversize.

dadiOH wrote:
> Puddin' Man wrote:
>> 'owdy,
>>
>> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill
>> press. Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>>
>> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a
>> straight hole to save my soul.
>>
>> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable
>> square, I eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as
>> close to 90 degrees as I'm likely to get.
>>
>> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then
>> start
>> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the
>> hole, going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about
>> 1/3 "
>> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>>
>> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade
>> bit that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit
>> at HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
>> problem.
>>
>> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a
>> little, and veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I
>> know, there may be lots of other possibilities.
>>
>> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight
>> hole? :-)
>
> Using a twist drill bit? Don't.
>
> Use a brad point or forstner...something that cuts with spurs on the
> outside rather than on the tip. An auger bit would work too but not
> (well) in a DP as the screw point will tend to pull the chuck right
> out of the DP.

You may have a problem finding a brad point bit long enough. Ditto
foerstner. NP, drill an inch, inch and a half so and then switch to your
twist bit. The upper hole you drilled with the brad or foerstner bit will
keep it from wobbling and or wandering so much.

If you don't *have* either, drill a series of 1/4" holes in scrap wood, cut
them apart so you can stack them an inch or two high, slip a wood dowel
through them, clamp to what you want to drill. remove dowel and drill away.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Mar 1, 11:30=A0pm, Puddin' Man <[email protected]> wrote:
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a stra=
ight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, =
I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>

You can get your table to *exactly* 90deg using this method:

Chuck a piece of wire or coat hanger into your DP bent in a Z shape.
Adjust the wire so the tip barely touches the table at the edge.
Rotate the chuck slowly by hand and watch the tip of the wire.
Adjust the table as necessary so that the wire is just touching the
table through a full rotation of the chuck.

You can shim the table as needed with bits of a cut up soda can if
needed.

After the table is "dead on balls accurate" (It's an industry term)
you can use the other methods described to drill a straight hole.

Just a couple of things that I'm surprised weren't mentioned:

First, use as short of a drill bit as possible -- the longer the drill
bit, the more likely it will bend. If you have to do a deep hole,
start with a short drill bit, and finish with a long one.

Next, mark the spot where you want to drill with a pencil -- not a
centerpunch -- if you mark with a center punch, and you misalign the
wood, the bit will pull itself off center right from the get-go, and
you will end up with a slanted hole. Same deal with 'touch marking',
where you lower the drill bit to make just a small mark to see if it's
on center, and then you adjust the piece... don't do that!

Last, use a clamp to avoid the wood moving while you're drilling.

John

On Mar 1, 11:30=A0pm, Puddin' Man <[email protected]> wrote:
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a stra=
ight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, =
I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little, =
and
> veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may b=
e
> lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-=
)
>
> Thx,
> Will
>
> "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Don't forget to clear the chips from the drill bit by occassionaly
backing out the bit to allow the chips to dispurse.
JoeG

On Mar 2, 8:33=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
>
> > Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. =A0Chuck in a
> > steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- bits are
> > usually
> > tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>
> Um... excuse me? =A0 =A0I'm calling BS on this.
> I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. =A0:-)

Would an Enco vernier count as a cite? Mine shows
the butt end of a 1/2" bit to read 0.005" narrower than
the working end.

Another quick note: if you mark the wood with a center punch (I'm
guessing an 'ice pick' is some sort of center punch), and you clamp
the piece of wood to the table, then if the mark is not EXACTLY under
the center of the drill, then it will pull the drill bit to the side
which results in an angled hole. This is especially true for hard
woods like maple, and long, thin drill bits.

There are a couple ways around this. First is to not clamp the piece
to the table, and slowly lower the bit to the wood until it touches.
This results in the bit pulling the wood towards the center, and you
get less of an angle. The next is to clamp the wood let the drill bit
spin when it's just touching the notch. Let it spin there for ten
seconds or so. This way, if it's not exactly aligned, the drill bit
will be able to cut the notch to a position closer to dead center.

When you think you have the notch centered, raise the drill bit, and
then, looking very carefully from the side, lower the drill bit
slowly. If the end of the drill bit shifts when it touches the wood,
your notch is not centered. Repeat the steps above until it's
centered. Only apply pressure on the drill press once the hole is
exactly centered.

Even if you don't use a center punch, you should be careful when
drilling the first 1/2mm to ensure the drill bit tip doesn't wander.


John

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Puddin' Man wrote,on my timestamp of 2/03/2011 3:30 PM:
>
> > Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> > Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
> >
> > I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a straight
> > hole to save my soul.
> >
> > With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
> > eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> > degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> Don't eyeball: get the square right up against the drill bit and see if it is
> really square in two 90degree directions.
>
>
> > The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> > a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> > going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> > from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
>
> Use a forstner (sp?) bit and do *not* drill a pilot hole. Forstner bits and
> other similar ones work best when the tip is used to guide the rest of the bit.
> With a pilot hole, you got nowhere for the tip to land on and the whole thing
> wobbles as the outer cutters pull in odd directions.

1/4 inch diameter and four inches deep is going to be a bear to drill
with a Forstner. Deep holes are not what they do best.

Basic principle--for a given diameter bit the accuracy with which one
can drill decreases with depth. In metalworking a ratio of 5:1 between
bit diameter and hole depth is generally the limit for just putting the
bit in and bearing down--beyond that you need to start applying deep
hole drilling techniques. The particular hole is at a 16:1 ratio--
getting it clean and on center without a gun drill is going to be a pain
in the butt.

First thing to consider--shorten the hole. How? Drill from both
sides--that way you only need to deal with an 8:1 ratio. That's doable
to typical woodworking tolerances if you're careful.

Next, use the right bit. Needs to be something that at least tries to
self-clear--that can be a twist drill or brad point or auger. Don't
even think about trying to do it with a spade bit or a Forstner. Lee
Valley's brad points are really good. I'd avoid an auger just because
the ones that are readily available are intended for rough carpentry in
softwoods--they need some work before they have a real chance of making
precise holes and won't be happy dealing with maple.

Next, you need some kind of jig to precisely position the bit. That
doesn't have to be anything elaborate, just carefully made. A Harbor
Freight dowelling jig for 13 bucks (remember to adjust the centering on
it--out of the box it's not usually adjusted) and a plastic speed square
should get you there for under 20 bucks, but you can cobble something up
out of scraps without too much difficulty.

Now, with the jig in place, and with the piece absolutely square to the
bit, drill about 3/4 of an inch, pull the bit out, clear the hole (when
I say "clear the hole" I mean pull the bit out and either turn the piece
upside down and whack it a couple of times or blow the hole with
compressed air. Drill again to about 1-1/4, clear the hole. Drill to
1-5/8, clear the hole. Drill to 1-3/4, 1-7/8, 2, clearing each time.
Now flip the piece and repeat. At the end drill all the way through.

You end up with a hole that's perfectly aligned on both ends, clear all
the way through, no tearout on either side, and although it won't be
perfectly straight it should be straight enough for most purposes.

If that doesn't get it straight enough and you can't afford a proper gun
drill then you have to make the part as a composite--rip the piece,
joint and plane, cut two half-rounds with a router, then glue it up and
you end up with a very straight, very clean hole.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...
>
> "Puddin' Man" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > 'owdy,
> >
> > Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> > Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
> >
> > I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a
> > straight
> > hole to save my soul.
> >
> > With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
> > eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> > degrees as I'm likely to get.
> >
> > The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> > a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> > going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> > from one side and 2/3" from the other.
> >
> > I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> > that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> > HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> > problem.
> >
> > I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little,
> > and
> > veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may be
> > lots of other possibilities.
> >
> > Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-)
>
>
> Use the proper bit for drilling a deep hole. That's the tip. What you want
> is either a Forstner bit or a good quality Brad Point bit. Don't use a
> spade or regular twist bit. Pen makers deal with this all the time but
> use quality bits suited for drilling deep straight holes.

Leon, have you ever drilled a four inch deep hole with a 1/4 inch
Forstner? If not you might want to give it a try.

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.

How are you securing the material being drilled to the drill press table?
When I've had problems like that it was because the work piece was moving.

"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:fc8249b9-699f-4925-93d0-bbb7377e0918@y31g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 2, 10:05 pm, "Edward Hennessey"
<[email protected]>
wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
> >> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
> >> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square --
> >> bits are
> >> usually
> >> tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>
> > Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
> > I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)
>
> That is contrary to my understanding with twist drill
> bits. They are not exact, which is why machinists
> will slightly underdrill and then ream a hole for
> precision metal work.
>
> Tapered drills certainly exist for special purposes. But,
> ask
> yourself, what would be the reason to slightly taper
> all drills?

Same reason all handsaws are either set or taper ground.

FH:

Again, my understanding departs. If you are using a worn
drill bit for measurement, because most abrasion will
occur at the tip, it would reason that the wear pattern
would
progressively erode the diameter from the
tip towards the terminus of the cutting surface
preceeding the shank. A new, quality, regular twist drill
used in machining operations should have a uniform
width along its cutting length short of the shank.

How could you simply drill a straight, shallow hole if the
drill bit tip were tapered? How could you drill
a blind hole for an even interference fit along
its length if the drill bit had the described taper?
There are second operations to deal with these
problems, but why would be a drill bit be designed
to necessitate them?

Handsaws are very different animals in many
respects. Some have a taper grind for blade
clearance plus minimized binding and a reduced tooth
set which makes for a cleaner cut along with
less binding. Importantly and differently from
power drilling apparatus, they have
a comparitively feeble human unsteadily driving them,
not a reliable motor delivering continuous
performance in a fixed line to a cooled tool.

I'd be happy to hear your position on drill taper was
endorsed on rcm by machinists with specialty knowledge
superior to mine. It is always good
to learn something new to lighten the load
of my ignorance.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"Larry W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward, I agree with you about drill bits not normally
> being tapered,
> however, I believe the poster who asserted that meant that
> the taper
> was such that the diameter was smaller at the shank end,
> not the cutting
> end.

LW:

Well, Larry, maybe I misread it. I know that there are,
in fact, taper-shank drill bits. But my impression that
we were talking about the working length of the tool
got a spur from the reference to the working portion
of handsaws.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"John" <[email protected]> wrote

> Another quick note: if you mark the wood with a center punch

To supplement a very useful posting, when drilling metal, I've realised that
the centre punch needs to be accurately ground so that it makes a perfect
conical indentation with the centre of the cone dead central with the
circular outline of the dent.

If otherwise, the drill or the job will be slightly deflected as the drill
starts to cut.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

Are you able to flip the piece and try it from the other side?

On 03/01/2011 11:30 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
>
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a straight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little, and
> veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may be
> lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-)
>
> Thx,
> Will
>
> "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
>

routerman <[email protected]> wrote in news:de14af63-50c0-402c-97a8-
[email protected]:

> One more note on holding the work.
> See: http://patwarner.com/holding_the_work.html
>

gives errors not enough storage to complete operation

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> In article <[email protected]>, Han
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>routerman <[email protected]> wrote in news:de14af63-50c0-402c-97a8-
>>[email protected]:
>>
>>> One more note on holding the work.
>>> See: http://patwarner.com/holding_the_work.html
>>>
>>
>>gives errors not enough storage to complete operation
>>
> That would be a problem on your PC, not with the website.
>
That's why itried several times, even just the base url, with and without
www. No luck. I then took a shower. I didn't turn off my laptop, and
kept FF running. Just tried again. No problem accessing.

No idea what gremlins there were nor where they were.

Just FYI.
<grin>.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:91ef18bc-4478-4674-9d0c-0bcdf9470906@l14g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 2, 8:33 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
>
> > Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
> > steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- bits are
> > usually
> > tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>
> Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
> I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)

Would an Enco vernier count as a cite? Mine shows
the butt end of a 1/2" bit to read 0.005" narrower than
the working end.

On a "brand new" never used drill bit? Bits do wear.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message
> news:c30353a0-0728-4518-82fa-2fc4a658e42a@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 1, 11:30 pm, Puddin' Man <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> snip
>
>
> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square --
> bits are
> usually
> tapered a few thou to prevent binding, and a longer rod
> gives
> you a better reading than a short bit. Test the rod for
> straightness by rolling it.
>
> Can't say I agree here, roll a standard drill bit on a
> flat surface, does it roll in a circle or arc? Mine
> don't. If your hole ends up being wider than the shank of
> the bit the cutting tip the bit is improperly sharpened or
> bent.
>

Leon:

Here's a readable page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit_shank

Time to work and
regards,

Edward Hennessey

Sometimes pecking down the hole is the best way.
Driving down jams wood as there is plenty to get rid of
and it shifts it sideways.

Martin

On 3/1/2011 10:30 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
>
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a straight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little, and
> veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may be
> lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-)
>
> Thx,
> Will
>
> "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
>

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
>> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
>> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square --
>> bits are
>> usually
>> tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>
>
> Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
> I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)
>

That is contrary to my understanding with twist drill
bits. They are not exact, which is why machinists
will slightly underdrill and then ream a hole for
precision metal work.

Tapered drills certainly exist for special purposes. But,
ask
yourself, what would be the reason to slightly taper
all drills?

Regards,

Edward Hennessey


>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function
> in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
>

On Mar 1, 11:30=A0pm, Puddin' Man <[email protected]> wrote:
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a stra=
ight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, =
I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little, =
and
> veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may b=
e
> lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-=
)
>
> Thx,
> Will
>
> "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- bits are
usually
tapered a few thou to prevent binding, and a longer rod gives
you a better reading than a short bit. Test the rod for
straightness by rolling it.

You have enough info here to get you started.
One more note on holding the work.
See: http://patwarner.com/holding_the_work.html
*************************************************************


On Mar 1, 8:30=A0pm, Puddin' Man <[email protected]> wrote:
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a stra=
ight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, =
I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little, =
and
> veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may b=
e
> lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-=
)
>
> Thx,
> Will
>
> "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c30353a0-0728-4518-82fa-2fc4a658e42a@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 1, 11:30 pm, Puddin' Man <[email protected]> wrote:
snip


Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- bits are
usually
tapered a few thou to prevent binding, and a longer rod gives
you a better reading than a short bit. Test the rod for
straightness by rolling it.

Can't say I agree here, roll a standard drill bit on a flat surface, does it
roll in a circle or arc? Mine don't. If your hole ends up being wider than
the shank of the bit the cutting tip the bit is improperly sharpened or
bent.

On Mar 2, 10:05=A0pm, "Edward Hennessey" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
> >> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. =A0Chuck in a
> >> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- =A0
> >> bits are
> >> usually
> >> tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>
> > Um... excuse me? =A0 =A0I'm calling BS on this.
> > I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. =A0:-)
>
> That is contrary to my understanding with twist drill
> bits. They are not exact, which is why machinists
> will slightly underdrill and then ream a hole for
> precision metal work.
>
> Tapered drills certainly exist for special purposes. But,
> ask
> yourself, what would be the reason to slightly taper
> all drills?

Same reason all handsaws are either set or taper ground.

This is worth trying, for starters.

It will be done before the week's out.

Thanks,
P


On Wed, 2 Mar 2011 06:19:56 -0800 (PST), Limp Arbor <[email protected]> wrote:

>You can get your table to *exactly* 90deg using this method:
>
>Chuck a piece of wire or coat hanger into your DP bent in a Z shape.
>Adjust the wire so the tip barely touches the table at the edge.
>Rotate the chuck slowly by hand and watch the tip of the wire.
>Adjust the table as necessary so that the wire is just touching the
>table through a full rotation of the chuck.
>
>You can shim the table as needed with bits of a cut up soda can if
>needed.
>
>After the table is "dead on balls accurate" (It's an industry term)
>you can use the other methods described to drill a straight hole.

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Puddin' Man wrote,on my timestamp of 2/03/2011 3:30 PM:

> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a straight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.

Don't eyeball: get the square right up against the drill bit and see if it is
really square in two 90degree directions.


> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.


Use a forstner (sp?) bit and do *not* drill a pilot hole. Forstner bits and
other similar ones work best when the tip is used to guide the rest of the bit.
With a pilot hole, you got nowhere for the tip to land on and the whole thing
wobbles as the outer cutters pull in odd directions.


HTH

On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- bits are
> usually
> tapered a few thou to prevent binding,


Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article <[email protected]>, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>routerman <[email protected]> wrote in news:de14af63-50c0-402c-97a8-
>[email protected]:
>
>> One more note on holding the work.
>> See: http://patwarner.com/holding_the_work.html
>>
>
>gives errors not enough storage to complete operation
>
That would be a problem on your PC, not with the website.

On 3/4/11 3:12 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
> On Mar 2, 10:05 pm, "Edward Hennessey"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> "-MIKE-"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
>>>> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
>>>> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square --
>>>> bits are
>>>> usually
>>>> tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>>
>>> Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
>>> I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)
>>
>> That is contrary to my understanding with twist drill
>> bits. They are not exact, which is why machinists
>> will slightly underdrill and then ream a hole for
>> precision metal work.
>>
>> Tapered drills certainly exist for special purposes. But,
>> ask
>> yourself, what would be the reason to slightly taper
>> all drills?
>
> Same reason all handsaws are either set or taper ground.

I'm guessing there may be one type of specialty bit that is as you describe.
I'm certainly no expert, but every drill bit I've ever used, save
tapered wood bits, are the same exact diameter for the entire length of
cutting surface.

I suspect your "bits are generally tapered a few thou" statement is
grossly inaccurate.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Edward, I agree with you about drill bits not normally being tapered,
however, I believe the poster who asserted that meant that the taper
was such that the diameter was smaller at the shank end, not the cutting
end.




--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

In article <[email protected]>,
Edward Hennessey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Larry W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Edward, I agree with you about drill bits not normally
>> being tapered,
>> however, I believe the poster who asserted that meant that
>> the taper
>> was such that the diameter was smaller at the shank end,
>> not the cutting
>> end.
>
>LW:
>
>Well, Larry, maybe I misread it. I know that there are,
>in fact, taper-shank drill bits. But my impression that
>we were talking about the working length of the tool
>got a spur from the reference to the working portion
>of handsaws.
>
>Regards,
>
>Edward Hennessey
>
>
>

Well, a good quality hand saw IS thicker at the cutting edge compared to
the spine.


--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

On 3/5/11 9:55 AM, Leon wrote:
> "Father Haskell"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:91ef18bc-4478-4674-9d0c-0bcdf9470906@l14g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 2, 8:33 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
>>
>>> Drill a pilot hole before using a cheap bit. Chuck in a
>>> steel rod instead of a drill bit to test for square -- bits are
>>> usually
>>> tapered a few thou to prevent binding,
>>
>> Um... excuse me? I'm calling BS on this.
>> I'll gladly retract, but you have to cite something. :-)
>
> Would an Enco vernier count as a cite?

No. You checked one bit. You didn't state a policy by bit
manufacturers or manufacturing standard for making bits tapered.


> Mine shows
> the butt end of a 1/2" bit to read 0.005" narrower than
> the working end.
>
> On a "brand new" never used drill bit? Bits do wear.
>

So it's smaller at the end that gets put in the chuck and bigger at the
cutting tip?
That would make sense. Now you have me thinking.

So where's the good Father Haskell to clarify?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/2/11 5:49 PM, Father Haskell wrote:

> bits are usually
> tapered a few thou to prevent binding, and a longer rod gives
> you a better reading than a short bit. Test the rod for
> straightness by rolling it.

Can you clarify this. Are you talking about the bit being smaller at the
check end than the cutting tip? This would make some sense to me and
I'll retract the BS if that's the case. :-)



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/8/11 7:16 PM, Father Haskell wrote:
> On Mar 5, 1:21 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> So it's smaller at the end that gets put in the chuck and bigger at the
>> cutting tip?
>> That would make sense. Now you have me thinking.
>>
>> So where's the good Father Haskell to clarify?
>
> Verify if you like. Drill a test hole in a piece of aluminum
> plate. Use the bit for a gauge, see which end has
> the most play in the test hole. 0.005" should be
> easily detectable by feel.

What, you couldn't just tell us which end you were talking about?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I agree on this method. It works simply and reliably.

On 3/2/2011 9:19 AM, Limp Arbor wrote:
> On Mar 1, 11:30 pm, Puddin' Man<[email protected]> wrote:
>> 'owdy,
>>
>> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
>> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>>
>> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a straight
>> hole to save my soul.
>>
>> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
>> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
>> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>>
>
> You can get your table to *exactly* 90deg using this method:
>
> Chuck a piece of wire or coat hanger into your DP bent in a Z shape.
> Adjust the wire so the tip barely touches the table at the edge.
> Rotate the chuck slowly by hand and watch the tip of the wire.
> Adjust the table as necessary so that the wire is just touching the
> table through a full rotation of the chuck.
>
> You can shim the table as needed with bits of a cut up soda can if
> needed.
>
> After the table is "dead on balls accurate" (It's an industry term)
> you can use the other methods described to drill a straight hole.

On Wed, 2 Mar 2011 10:15:01 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>1/4 inch diameter and four inches deep is going to be a bear to drill
>with a Forstner. Deep holes are not what they do best.

So I've discovered.

>Basic principle--for a given diameter bit the accuracy with which one
>can drill decreases with depth. In metalworking a ratio of 5:1 between
>bit diameter and hole depth is generally the limit for just putting the
>bit in and bearing down--beyond that you need to start applying deep
>hole drilling techniques. The particular hole is at a 16:1 ratio--
>getting it clean and on center without a gun drill is going to be a pain
>in the butt.
>
>First thing to consider--shorten the hole. How? Drill from both
>sides--that way you only need to deal with an 8:1 ratio. That's doable
>to typical woodworking tolerances if you're careful.

I've been doing this.

>Next, use the right bit. Needs to be something that at least tries to
>self-clear--that can be a twist drill or brad point or auger. Don't
>even think about trying to do it with a spade bit or a Forstner. Lee
>Valley's brad points are really good. I'd avoid an auger just because
>the ones that are readily available are intended for rough carpentry in
>softwoods--they need some work before they have a real chance of making
>precise holes and won't be happy dealing with maple.

I have a decent 1/4" brad point that will penetrate about 2.25" ...

>Next, you need some kind of jig to precisely position the bit. That
>doesn't have to be anything elaborate, just carefully made. A Harbor
>Freight dowelling jig for 13 bucks (remember to adjust the centering on
>it--out of the box it's not usually adjusted) and a plastic speed square
>should get you there for under 20 bucks, but you can cobble something up
>out of scraps without too much difficulty.

Not certain I understand. Position the bit? Or position the workpiece?

I have a cheap drill press vise, and I've tried it on this
project, but it's a bitch to use.

>Now, with the jig in place, and with the piece absolutely square to the
>bit, drill about 3/4 of an inch, pull the bit out, clear the hole (when
>I say "clear the hole" I mean pull the bit out and either turn the piece
>upside down and whack it a couple of times or blow the hole with
>compressed air. Drill again to about 1-1/4, clear the hole. Drill to
>1-5/8, clear the hole. Drill to 1-3/4, 1-7/8, 2, clearing each time.
>Now flip the piece and repeat. At the end drill all the way through.

I've been clearing the hole but not necessarily at increments as small
as you suggest.

>You end up with a hole that's perfectly aligned on both ends, clear all
>the way through, no tearout on either side, and although it won't be
>perfectly straight it should be straight enough for most purposes.

I managed this I think once (out of about 8 differing attempts).

Someone commented on marking the center to start the hole. I've been
laying out with a carpenters square from both sides. Then I start a
tiny dimple with an ice-pick. Then enlarge the dimple manually with
the actual bit that will be used for drilling thru. Same procedure,
both top and bottom.

>If that doesn't get it straight enough and you can't afford a proper gun
>drill then you have to make the part as a composite--rip the piece,
>joint and plane, cut two half-rounds with a router, then glue it up and
>you end up with a very straight, very clean hole.

Not practical for the current project. Maybe for others.

Many Thanks,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Did you try to resharpen the bit with even tapers and sharpness on both
sides?

Increase your peed a bit and do not "press" so hard to make the bit wander
as much?

Once the pilot hole is drilled the next bit will basically always follow
that one. The initial hole needs to start will a firm bit and not one that
will bend as much.

Use a larger bit than needed for stiffness and collet each end?

----------------

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Someone commented on marking the center to start the hole. I've been
laying out with a carpenters square from both sides. Then I start a
tiny dimple with an ice-pick. Then enlarge the dimple manually with
the actual bit that will be used for drilling thru. Same procedure,
both top and bottom.

>If that doesn't get it straight enough and you can't afford a proper gun
>drill then you have to make the part as a composite--rip the piece,
>joint and plane, cut two half-rounds with a router, then glue it up and
>you end up with a very straight, very clean hole.

Not practical for the current project. Maybe for others.

Many Thanks,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

"Puddin' Man" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> 'owdy,
>
> Back in the 80's I picked up a Craftsman 13" floor-standing drill press.
> Seemed like a decent unit given the modest price.
>
> I've got a little project with curly maple, and find I can't drill a
> straight
> hole to save my soul.
>
> With a long bit very carefully chucked and sitting by a reliable square, I
> eyeball the angle from the front and side. Appears to be as close to 90
> degrees as I'm likely to get.
>
> The maple is near 1" thick. I very carefully mark the center, then start
> a pilot hole with an ice pick and a drill bit. Then I try for the hole,
> going thru about 4" of wood. It comes out the other end, about 1/3 "
> from one side and 2/3" from the other.
>
> I've tried several bits. Don't think I've ever seen an Irwin spade bit
> that didn't wobble. Picked up a Milwaukee extra-length 1/4" bit at
> HD and found it wobbled like crazy. But I doubt the bit is the real
> problem.
>
> I'm guessing maybe the bit hits a hard spot in the wood, bends a little,
> and
> veers off course. But I'm no drill press pro. For all I know, there may be
> lots of other possibilities.
>
> Hate to have to ask, but ... any tips on how to drill a straight hole? :-)


Use the proper bit for drilling a deep hole. That's the tip. What you want
is either a Forstner bit or a good quality Brad Point bit. Don't use a
spade or regular twist bit. Pen makers deal with this all the time but
use quality bits suited for drilling deep straight holes.

"Larry W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> Edward Hennessey <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"Larry W" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> Edward, I agree with you about drill bits not normally
>>> being tapered,
>>> however, I believe the poster who asserted that meant
>>> that
>>> the taper
>>> was such that the diameter was smaller at the shank end,
>>> not the cutting
>>> end.
>>
>>LW:
>>
>>Well, Larry, maybe I misread it. I know that there are,
>>in fact, taper-shank drill bits. But my impression that
>>we were talking about the working length of the tool
>>got a spur from the reference to the working portion
>>of handsaws.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Edward Hennessey
>>
>>
>>
>
> Well, a good quality hand saw IS thicker at the cutting
> edge compared to
> the spine.
>
>

LW:

I agree with you as the quote from a post above went:

Handsaws are very different animals in many
respects. Some have a taper grind for blade
clearance plus minimized binding and a reduced tooth
set which makes for a cleaner cut along with
less binding.

Yet there are hand saws which are an exception to
this rule, which was remarked.

Bought a Bosch flush-cut saw the other day. That's an
interesting item, though fairly limited in application.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

> --
> When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned
> to the same box.
>
> Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.
> lonestar.org