I know this is a basic question, but I'm hoping I'll read some alternatives
I hadn't considered.
I need to make a T, which is a simple butt joint against the 'centre' of
another piece of wood. the depth of the short leg of the T should be
5.234567 (exaggerated) within one RCH. I thought I would clamp two blocks
5.234567 wide to the edge of the wood, then glue and tack the long leg of
my T using the blocks as a guide. Once my gap was filled with the 5.234567"
filler wood I would sand to within 1 RCH>
Any better thoughts on achieving RCH accuracy, especially squareness.
TIA
On Nov 10, 7:35 am, "Phil-In-Mich." <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Many years ago, Edward Deming (father of quality control), made the claim
> that sometimes it isn't the workers' fault, the fault is in the system. To
> fix a recurring conformance design problem, the design and the system of
> manufacturing may have to be changed.
Ideally, the skill of the worker includes his/her choice of tooling,
fixturing, and processing - essentially the "system of manufacturing".
> For example:
> - you are working with wood, the nature of the material is not steel.
Very true.
> - Since you are asking this question, I presume you are using home-owner
> class tools.
He probably is. This is not necessarily a problem. In 2003 I held an
accuracy contest here in the wreck. The idea was prompted by a guy
who claimed that he could work wood in the ten-thousandths of an inch
range on his "super tuned" contractor's saw (throughly de-bunked).
Here's the thread with the results:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_frm/thread/673190988bf5c353/927a6e7e35004e30?#927a6e7e35004e30
Sorry, the official results on my web site have long since been
deleted. The winner (Owen Lowe) cut acrylic samples to within 0.005"
using the stock miter gauge on a Unisaw (sold to home shop woodworkers
everywhere in the US). He aligned his saw using a "feel the rub"
technique. The best wood samples came in at 0.011" (hard maple).
Probably could have done better with lignum vitae. Not a chance with
pine, oak, or walnut. The thread includes my take on why it's hard to
do much better with wood. My benchmark on a Unisaw cutting aluminum
using the stock miter gauge was about 0.001".
> - your power tools don't weigh thousands of pounds.
The Unisaw doesn't weigh thousands of pounds.
> - your power tools aren't bolted to the floor
My Unisaw is on wheels. I can do work to about 20 millionths in steel
on my surface grinder. It's not bolted to the floor either. But it
does weigh about 2500 lbs.
> - woodworking sometimes requires skills, not only book learning, but years
> of experience with the tools.
Absolutely. Experience is required to achieve such results or even
comment on their feasibility.
> - any fabrication needs an error tolerance calculation due to fabrication
> process. What are your + / - errors allowed? (have you allowed for wood
> compression?)
He probably hasn't. Sounds like he's doing emperical work.
> Nobody can measure anything beyond three digits (0.000) with any meaning as
> the tools for measuring become inaccurate and the results meaningless. With
> wood, three digit precision limit is cause for laughter. You are asking for
> SIX digit accuracy. (The deflection of the wood by the pressure of your
> hands squeezing it will negate any attempt at SIX digit accuracy.)
Hmmmm....
Just call me "Nobody"!
Please feel free to stop by my shop anytime and I'll show you reliable
and repeatable linear measurements to within millionths of an inch and
angular measurements to less than an arc second. Yes, that's six
digits. No, it has nothing to do with wood. But, depending on the
species, and the direction of measurement (along the grain, not across
the grain) it's possible to work wood to less than 0.005" - all day
long, any day of the week. Measuring it is no problem. I wouldn't be
willing to claim anything better.
You did say "nobody" can measure "anything" beyond 3 digit
accuracy. ;-) I think it's safe to say that we don't need to consider
Hisenberg uncertainty or the observer effect for this sort of work.
> In short, your "plan" or design is in error if you attempt to fabricate to
> such accuracy. Even trying to custom fit with sanding is going to get you
> high blood pressure. (sanding will many times cause loss of square in 3D of
> parts, as hand sanding is very, very in-accurate; one place always gets
> sanded more than another leaving a slight dip in the surface.)
I would liken hand sanding to hand scraping bed ways. Considerable
skill is required but I don't doubt the feasibility. I wouldn't try
it but there are guys who can scrape machine bed ways to within ten-
thousandths of an inch with a hand held scraper.
> Re-think your design, remember you are working in wood.
> For FOUR digit accuracy, the Newsgroup you want is rec.metalworking. Their
> toys are a bit more $$$$$.
I assume you mean rec.crafts.metalworking. I think a fairly decent
manual mill can be had for the cost of a 3hp unisaw. I would like to
learn more about Bill's application and needs. Perhaps there are
better ways for him to solve the problem.
Ed Bennett
[email protected]
Submit your work to the Gallery:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/gallery.htm
On Nov 11, 7:04 pm, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ed:
>
> You're taking this thing WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.
>
> I know you think in machinist terms - I vividly recall the
> "interaction" between you and Strickland - but lighten
> up a little and you'll get at least a smile out of where
> this thread has gone - probably the intent of the original
> poster.
>
> When was the last time you saw the word "pudenda"
> in a woodworking - or even a machinist - forum?
>
> charlie b
>
> ps - I really like my TS-Aligner Jr. Deluxe. Great set
> up tool - at a reasonable price and very high quality.
> It, along with a good 3' straight edge, a set of feeler
> gauges, a mallet and some special jigs made it POSSIBLE
> to tune my Robland X-31. Wasn't easy by any means,
> but possible - with your TS-Aligner's help. Thanks - again.
Hi Charlie,
Sorry if it seems like I'm out of step with where the thread has gone,
but you have to understand that none of that had happened when I
replied. I was commenting on what "Phil-In-Mich" said (a somewhat
misguided treatise on Edward Demming and the "futility" of accuracy in
woodworking). At the time, his was the only response to Bill's post.
I have no problem with how the thread has evolved. I almost suggested
that Tim do a Google search on "RCH" but that would have spoiled the
fun.
Thanks for the good words. Glad to hear from yet another happy
customer!
Ed Bennett
[email protected]
Submit your work to the Gallery:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/gallery.htm
>
> I need to make a T, which is a simple butt joint against the 'centre' of
> another piece of wood. the depth of the short leg of the T should be
> 5.234567 (exaggerated) within one RCH. I thought I would clamp two blocks
> 5.234567 wide to the edge of the wood, then glue and tack the long leg of
> my T using the blocks as a guide. Once my gap was filled with the
> 5.234567" filler wood I would sand to within 1 RCH>
>
Many years ago, Edward Deming (father of quality control), made the claim
that sometimes it isn't the workers' fault, the fault is in the system. To
fix a recurring conformance design problem, the design and the system of
manufacturing may have to be changed.
For example:
- you are working with wood, the nature of the material is not steel.
- Since you are asking this question, I presume you are using home-owner
class tools.
- your power tools don't weigh thousands of pounds.
- your power tools aren't bolted to the floor
- woodworking sometimes requires skills, not only book learning, but years
of experience with the tools.
- any fabrication needs an error tolerance calculation due to fabrication
process. What are your + / - errors allowed? (have you allowed for wood
compression?)
Nobody can measure anything beyond three digits (0.000) with any meaning as
the tools for measuring become inaccurate and the results meaningless. With
wood, three digit precision limit is cause for laughter. You are asking for
SIX digit accuracy. (The deflection of the wood by the pressure of your
hands squeezing it will negate any attempt at SIX digit accuracy.)
In short, your "plan" or design is in error if you attempt to fabricate to
such accuracy. Even trying to custom fit with sanding is going to get you
high blood pressure. (sanding will many times cause loss of square in 3D of
parts, as hand sanding is very, very in-accurate; one place always gets
sanded more than another leaving a slight dip in the surface.)
Re-think your design, remember you are working in wood.
For FOUR digit accuracy, the Newsgroup you want is rec.metalworking. Their
toys are a bit more $$$$$.
B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Tim W" wrote:
>>
>>> What is RCH??
>>
>>Ask your Daddy.
>>
>
> Is this it?
>
> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> ** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
> ---------------------------------------------
Oh, that's evil. ;-)
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Tim W wrote:
>
> "FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>>and
>>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is RCH??
>>>>
>>>>Ask your Daddy.
>>>
>>> Is this it?
>>>
>>> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>>>
>> Ummmm, no
>>
> No straight answers here then?
> So now have to go to bed thinking...
> Royal College of Hairdressers?
> Registered Caliper Handlers?
> Roughly Calculated Hairsbreadth?
>
> I am setting the pub quiz tomorrow night. I could ask this question.
>
> Tim w
Will guarantee you get the answer from the pub in less than 20 seconds
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
In article <[email protected]>,
charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Leon wrote:
>
>> H stands for hair. Not a consistent measurement.
>
>Did a lot of research did you? Did you publish the results?
You'd be _surprised_ -- if not 'startled' -- at the data available
under the heading of "forensic science'.
>I'd really enjoy studying your sampling technique.
He uses only the traditional/classical methodologies -- no power equipment/
tools/automation whatsoever.
Some things _are_, quite simply better, when done by hand.
(thoroughly documented in an 'automation' newsgroup, when somebody transposed
the last letters of the first word in their request for a design for a "bar
code reader")
> Have you
>had your paper go through peer review?
Rumor has it that -he- was the one doing the peering.
Tim W took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 08:29 pm and
wrote the following:
>
> "FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>>and
>>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is RCH??
>>>>
>>>>Ask your Daddy.
>>>
>>> Is this it?
>>>
>>> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>>>
>> Ummmm, no
>>
> No straight answers here then?
> So now have to go to bed thinking...
> Royal College of Hairdressers?
> Registered Caliper Handlers?
> Roughly Calculated Hairsbreadth?
>
> I am setting the pub quiz tomorrow night. I could ask this question.
>
Be prepared to be laughed out of the pub.
;-)
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm and
wrote the following:
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Tim W" wrote:
>>
>>> What is RCH??
>>
>>Ask your Daddy.
>>
>
> Is this it?
>
> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>
Ummmm, no
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
Doug Miller wrote:
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> What is RCH??
> RCH = Red [pudendum] Hair
Doug:
I'm nominating you to be our next Secretary of State!
You definitely belong in the Diplomatic Corp - so
adeptly avoiding the Polictally Incorrect "C" word.
Well done - SIR.
charlie b
Mike in Arkansas wrote:
>
> Guess everyone probably has it figured by now but just in case try
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?pudenda . BTW clicking on
> "Show pudenda on a map" won't take you to a map :) :) :) :)
Now we need a dictionary to find out what one of the words
referenced to explain an acronym is? This is getting funnier
and funnier!
After a day at a slow woodworking show I really did need a thread
like this one. Four out loud laughs so far - and I'm only half way
through the postings. This is great!
charlie b
BTW the H in question is not limited to the location you provided
- especially in France I'm guessing ; )
Ed:
You're taking this thing WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.
I know you think in machinist terms - I vividly recall the
"interaction" between you and Strickland - but lighten
up a little and you'll get at least a smile out of where
this thread has gone - probably the intent of the original
poster.
When was the last time you saw the word "pudenda"
in a woodworking - or even a machinist - forum?
charlie b
ps - I really like my TS-Aligner Jr. Deluxe. Great set
up tool - at a reasonable price and very high quality.
It, along with a good 3' straight edge, a set of feeler
gauges, a mallet and some special jigs made it POSSIBLE
to tune my Robland X-31. Wasn't easy by any means,
but possible - with your TS-Aligner's help. Thanks - again.
Doug Miller took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 09:21 pm
and wrote the following:
> In article <[email protected]>, "Tim W"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>>>and
>>>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What is RCH??
>>>>>
>>>>>Ask your Daddy.
>>>>
>>>> Is this it?
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>>>>
>>> Ummmm, no
>>>
>>No straight answers here then?
>>So now have to go to bed thinking...
>>Royal College of Hairdressers?
>>Registered Caliper Handlers?
>>Roughly Calculated Hairsbreadth?
>>
>>I am setting the pub quiz tomorrow night. I could ask this question.
>
> Somebody's gotta put you out of your misery before you do that...
>
> RCH = Red [pudendum] Hair
>
I always thought it was Royal, ummm, Hair, but anyways you shouldn't have
given it away, Tim's visit to the pub would have been quite interesting.
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:58:00 GMT, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>They play baaaaaad music! <G>
Actually, RCH reminds me of the first WKRP episode where WKRP plays
"You're having OUR baby", by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and Johnny
drags the needle across the turntable. The problem is, Johnny isn't
there to save the day! <G>
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
"Phil-In-Mich." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> > I need to make a T, which is a simple butt joint against the 'centre' of
> > another piece of wood. the depth of the short leg of the T should be
> > 5.234567 (exaggerated) within one RCH. I thought I would clamp two
blocks
> > 5.234567 wide to the edge of the wood, then glue and tack the long leg
of
> > my T using the blocks as a guide. Once my gap was filled with the
> > 5.234567" filler wood I would sand to within 1 RCH>
> >
>
> Many years ago, Edward Deming (father of quality control),
<schnip>
So who's the mother? Is she the one the RCH came from?
B.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
[...]>
>.... He's really asking about RCH accuracy.
>
What is RCH??
Tim w
"Tim W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>>and
>>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is RCH??
>>>>
>>>>Ask your Daddy.
>>>
>>> Is this it?
>>>
>>> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>>>
>> Ummmm, no
>>
> No straight answers here then?
> So now have to go to bed thinking...
> Royal College of Hairdressers?
> Registered Caliper Handlers?
> Roughly Calculated Hairsbreadth?
H stands for hair. Not a consistent measurement.
In article <[email protected]>, "Tim W" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>>and
>>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is RCH??
>>>>
>>>>Ask your Daddy.
>>>
>>> Is this it?
>>>
>>> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>>>
>> Ummmm, no
>>
>No straight answers here then?
>So now have to go to bed thinking...
>Royal College of Hairdressers?
>Registered Caliper Handlers?
>Roughly Calculated Hairsbreadth?
>
>I am setting the pub quiz tomorrow night. I could ask this question.
Somebody's gotta put you out of your misery before you do that...
RCH = Red [pudendum] Hair
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Tim W wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
> [...]>
>> .... He's really asking about RCH accuracy.
>>
> What is RCH??
Similar to BCH but red instead of blonde (or brunette).
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"Tim W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Ohhh! LOL. Silly me. I have never heard that one.
> I will leave it out of the quiz I think.
>
Excellent Idea Tim.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Tim W" wrote:
>
>> What is RCH??
>
>Ask your Daddy.
>
Is this it?
<http://www.wrch.com/>
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
"Phil-In-Mich." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I need to make a T, which is a simple butt joint against the 'centre' of
>> another piece of wood. the depth of the short leg of the T should be
>> 5.234567 (exaggerated) within one RCH. I thought I would clamp two
>> blocks 5.234567 wide to the edge of the wood, then glue and tack the
>> long leg of my T using the blocks as a guide. Once my gap was filled with
>> the 5.234567" filler wood I would sand to within 1 RCH>
>>
>
> Nobody can measure anything beyond three digits (0.000) with any meaning
> as the tools for measuring become inaccurate and the results meaningless.
> With wood, three digit precision limit is cause for laughter. You are
> asking for SIX digit accuracy. (The deflection of the wood by the
> pressure of your hands squeezing it will negate any attempt at SIX digit
> accuracy.)
>
To be fair - he did state the six digits was an exaggeration. He's really
asking about RCH accuracy.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>and
>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is RCH??
>>>
>>>Ask your Daddy.
>>
>> Is this it?
>>
>> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>>
> Ummmm, no
>
No straight answers here then?
So now have to go to bed thinking...
Royal College of Hairdressers?
Registered Caliper Handlers?
Roughly Calculated Hairsbreadth?
I am setting the pub quiz tomorrow night. I could ask this question.
Tim w
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:40:39 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>B A R R Y wrote:
>>
>> Is this it?
>>
>> <http://www.wrch.com/>
>
> Oh, that's evil. ;-)
If you've heard the station, it fits... <G>
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:03:10 -0500, "Lee Gordon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
><<Is this it?
>
><http://www.wrch.com/>
>>>
>
>Hey, those are my friends!
>
>Lee
They play baaaaaad music! <G>
I'm sure some of the voice overs are excellent, though...
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:21:55 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, "Tim W" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>>>and
>>>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What is RCH??
>>>>>
>>>>>Ask your Daddy.
>>>>
>>>> Is this it?
>
>Somebody's gotta put you out of your misery before you do that...
>
>RCH = Red [pudendum] Hair
I had to laugh at this thread, wondering how long it would be before
someone asked. I think I was introduced to the phrase when I was about
16 working in a hardware store among nothing but ancient (to a 16 year
old) men.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Tim W"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>B A R R Y took a can of maroon spray paint on November 10, 2007 05:07 pm
>>>and
>>>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What is RCH??
>>>>>
[...]
>>
>>I am setting the pub quiz tomorrow night. I could ask this question.
>
> Somebody's gotta put you out of your misery before you do that...
>
> RCH = Red [pudendum] Hair
>
Ohhh! LOL. Silly me. I have never heard that one.
I will leave it out of the quiz I think.
Tim W
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:01:51 GMT, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:58:00 GMT, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>>They play baaaaaad music! <G>
>
>Actually, RCH reminds me of the first WKRP episode where WKRP plays
>"You're having OUR baby", by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and Johnny
>drags the needle across the turntable. The problem is, Johnny isn't
>there to save the day! <G>
Booger!
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.