My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
On 7/11/2013 6:48 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 6:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
>>> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
>>> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>> Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the
>> current in the oven circuit is inducing a small current in the other
>> circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing GFCI.
>
> ...
>
> Induced currents from the oven circuit when not in use????
>
> I'd agree w/ the GFCI being the likely culprit or there's an
> intermittent on that circuit and the oven is basically a red herring.
>
> --
Some of the newer GFI's now detect a slight problem with say a bad wire
on a lamp cord, no short, but too much resistance. The oven probably is
using some current all the time, such as the clock.
I would suspect the GFI becoming way too sensitive to that possibility.
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:36:35 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Just a thought, look at the stove manufactureres web site and see if they
have released any service bulletins on your model.
basilisk
On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:32:54 PM UTC-4, Doug Miller wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in
>
> news:[email protected]:
>
>
>
> > I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>
> >
>
> > With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at
>
> > breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I
>
> > leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the
>
> > stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left
>
> > most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there
>
> > is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off'
>
> > position at breaker.
>
> >
>
> > This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI
>
> > tripping. I am vexed.
>
>
>
> I think it's time to call an electrician, Brian. The two circuits are cross-connected somehow --
>
> possibly sharing a neutral -- and this is potentially *very* dangerous.
>
>
>
> Leave the breaker for the stove off until this is resolved.
>
>
>
> You're not anywhere near Indianapolis, right?
No. NC. I think you're right about the electrician. I'd hate to spend $80 bucks for him to tell me I need a new stove though. But I agree with you 100%.
On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
>
>
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>
>
>
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
>
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
UPDATE:
I found one loose neutral on the neutral bus bar that I tightened down. Still I was reading incorrect w/ the three light tester (TLT for here).
I found a GFI I installed a while back (dedictaed circuit) that had broken free of the dry wall. The plastic fins broke off apparently from an extension cord pull.
I replaced the two plastic fins and anchored down again. So far I am reading correct on the "faulty" gfi and the oven is plugged in w/ light on.
Lets see if she trips the gfi.
I inspected the receptacle that came loose from the drywall for signs of arching and I saw none. Looked clean.
-BG
On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:55:41 PM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 2:36 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> >
>
> > I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>
> >
>
> > What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
> >
>
> > Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> >
>
> Ah. I see you have checked the GFI with the stove unplugged.
>
>
>
> Have you tested the stove outlet itself for proper wiring?
No, but the stove and other 110V GFI's have all worked normal for 15 years.
The all use to test 'correct'. Unless it was a wiring problem that shouldn't have worked normal from the start and gradually degraded somehow?
>I can't quite
>
> work it out in my head, but I wonder if the neutral is hooked up
>
> properly. The fact that you mentioned the oven light is what made me
>
> think of that. The heating element of the stove probably doesn't need
>
> the neutral at all, but the light does.
>
>
>
> Does the stove circuit share a neutral with the GFI?
>
>
>
> When we moved into our house there was an outlet with no true neutral.
>
> Some jackass had managed to make the outlet "work" by attaching the
>
> neutral screw of the outlet to the metal outlet box which was grounded
>
> through the BX cable. Never rule out idiocy in cases like this.
[email protected] wrote:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my
> wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same
> GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows
> all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the
> dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the
> tester.
>
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years
> old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the stove/oven have a 3 Pin (L1, L2, G)or 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G)
plug?
A 3 Pin (L1, L2, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being fed
by on leg (L1 or L2) and ground (G).
A 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being
fed by on leg (L1 or L2) and neutral
(N).
Either of these will generate an unbalanced load that may be
significant enough to trip a GFI receptacle depending on how the
circuitry in the house is wired.
The 3 Pin will be a tougher problem to chase down.
You indicate that if the stove/oven is unplugged, the GFI doesn't
trip.
If that is true, the stove/oven could be the problem, especially if
there is a loose connection someplace in the stove/oven or back at the
panel.
Good luck.
Lew
On 7/11/2013 12:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:08:49 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/11/2013 11:43 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:40:49 PM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>
>>>> On 7/11/2013 12:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off' position at breaker.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Did you test with the stove breaker ON, but the stove itself not plugged
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> into the outlet?
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Yes. It tests normal.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't laugh, did you test with your TS plugged in and running? I
>>
>> would want to eliminate the possibility of the circuit being used being
>>
>> the problem.
>
> I'd have to swap out the plug on the saw to fit the 50A 220V receptacle. Might be worth the trouble.
>
I think it will certainly tell you if it is the wiring or the oven.
-MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>While you're checking this other stuff, check the main 220v receptacle
>for the oven.
>I don't know how old your house is, but they were using aluminum wire
>for high current 220v to ovens and furnaces back in the day. Most
>receptacles have copper connection. Aluminum to copper can spark and it
>ends up melting the insulators and can be dangerous, obviously.
Not spark...
When dissimilar metals are in contact, they can galvanically corrode. The
corrosion causes additional resistance, which leads to heat build-up. The
heat can build up to the point where nearby combustible materials will,
well, combust.
Aluminium conductors also expand and contract with temperature changes more
than copper; in smaller (AWG 12) gauge connections this may loosen
the connection over time, which also increases resistance which leads
to heat, which can lead to fire. This generally doesn't happen with
the connectors used for #6/#4 50A 220V recepts, if they are torqued correctly
when installed.
Brian's problem is likley to be a loose neutral somewhere, or a
a three-wire 220 circuit injecting current into a shared ground because
the appliance (stove) is cheating by using one 220VAC leg and the ground
to get 120V for the oven light (since a three-wire circuit won't have a
grounded conductor, only a grounding conductor).
scott
One never really knows, might be a loose screw in the main circuit box.
When the stove draws current it might be putting some current on the
ground (safety) line. That would dump a GFI.
Martin
On 7/11/2013 1:36 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the current in the oven
circuit is inducing a small current in the other circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing
GFCI.
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it
> shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on
> the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct'
> with the tester.
I agree with Bill: first thing I'd do is replace the GFCI; it's a cheap and easy job. If the
problem goes away, rest easy. If the problem persists, it's time to talk to an electrician.
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15
> years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
I agree that something's gone belly up, but IMHO it's far more likely to be the GFCI.
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
One last thought: post in alt.home.repair instead of here. There are at least two licensed
professional electricians who read and post there regularly, and their advice is to be
trusted: "RBM" and "gfretwell".
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 7/11/2013 6:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
>>> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
>>> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>> Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the
>> current in the oven circuit is inducing a small current in the other
>> circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing GFCI.
>
> ...
>
> Induced currents from the oven circuit when not in use????
If it has a clock, or any type of electronic control panel, the oven circuit is still drawing power.
> I'd agree w/ the GFCI being the likely culprit or there's an
> intermittent on that circuit and the oven is basically a red herring.
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>
> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at
> breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I
> leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the
> stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left
> most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there
> is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off'
> position at breaker.
>
> This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI
> tripping. I am vexed.
I think it's time to call an electrician, Brian. The two circuits are cross-connected somehow --
possibly sharing a neutral -- and this is potentially *very* dangerous.
Leave the breaker for the stove off until this is resolved.
You're not anywhere near Indianapolis, right?
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:32:54 PM UTC-4, Doug Miller wrote:
>> Leave the breaker for the stove off until this is resolved.
>>
>> You're not anywhere near Indianapolis, right?
>
> No. NC. I think you're right about the electrician. I'd hate
> to spend $80 bucks for him to tell me I need a new stove though.
> But I agree with you 100%.
>
Don't think of it as paying the electrician $80 to tell you that you need a new stove. Think of it
as paying him $80 to tell you that you *don't* have a problem in the *wiring*.
But I think he's going to find that you do.
In any event, once the problem is resolved, please follow up with a description of the cause.
[email protected] wrote in news:c5a51067-386d-4b17-ace5-
[email protected]:
> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:40:49 PM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> Did you test with the stove breaker ON, but the stove itself not plugged
>> into the outlet?
>
> Yes. It tests normal.
Please note that this does *not* prove that the problem is in the stove.
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I think you're right about the electrician. I'd hate
> to spend $80 bucks for him to tell me I need a new stove though.
You'd hate it even more to spend a grand on a new stove, and find out that's not the problem
after all.
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> Does the stove circuit share a neutral with the GFI?
It can't -- at least not by design. If it did, the GFCI would not have just recently begun tripping,
it would have been tripping since the day it was installed *every* time that the oven light was
used.
It's possible that a wiring fault has occurred somehow that's causing them to intermittently
share a neutral *now* -- which is why I think Brian needs an electrician ASAP.
>
> When we moved into our house there was an outlet with no true neutral.
> Some jackass had managed to make the outlet "work" by attaching the
> neutral screw of the outlet to the metal outlet box which was grounded
> through the BX cable. Never rule out idiocy in cases like this.
I've seen the same thing. But a GFCI connected to such an arrangement will *always* trip.
So I think that's not the case here. If there's a cross-connection, it's not intentional. And that's
really a bigger problem than if it were.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:51df7c6c$0$1210$c3e8da3
[email protected]:
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my
>> wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same
>> GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows
>> all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the
>> dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the
>> tester.
>>
>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years
>> old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>
>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Does the stove/oven have a 3 Pin (L1, L2, G)or 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G)
> plug?
>
> A 3 Pin (L1, L2, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being fed
> by on leg (L1 or L2) and ground (G).
>
> A 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being
> fed by on leg (L1 or L2) and neutral
> (N).
>
> Either of these will generate an unbalanced load that may be
> significant enough to trip a GFI receptacle depending on how the
> circuitry in the house is wired.
Only if the GFI is on one leg of the 240V circuit -- which it clearly is not, since in the original
post Brian described the GFI functioning normally when the stove breaker was turned off.
>
> The 3 Pin will be a tougher problem to chase down.
>
> You indicate that if the stove/oven is unplugged, the GFI doesn't
> trip.
>
> If that is true, the stove/oven could be the problem, especially if
> there is a loose connection someplace in the stove/oven or back at the
> panel.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:kro0al$qq5$1@dont-
email.me:
> Doug Miller wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>>>
>>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at
>>> breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I
>>> leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the
>>> stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left
>>> most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there
>>> is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off'
>>> position at breaker.
>>>
>>> This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI
>>> tripping. I am vexed.
>>
>> I think it's time to call an electrician, Brian. The two circuits are
>> cross-connected somehow -- possibly sharing a neutral -- and this is
>> potentially *very* dangerous.
>>
>
> How would that suddenly just happen?
>
Improperly-made connection eventually opened up. One possibility is a loose wire nut
somewhere on the neutral conductor for the circuit the GFI is on.
Another possibility is a mouse making contact between two conductors (don't scoff, I've
seen that happen).
Something strange is going on here, which is why I advised Brian to get an electrician out
ASAP. Tough to try to diagnose this from 800 miles away. Somebody needs hands-on.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:krpe59$n9$1@dont-
email.me:
>
> I see where you were thinking now. The mouse scenario could make a cross
> connect, but the loosened wire nut - not so much.
>
Sure it could. Loose wire nut falls off, connection comes apart, neutral conductor comes in
contact with an equipment grounding conductor.
Not very likely, I'll grant. But it's still a possible scenario.
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>
> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at
> breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I
> leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the
> stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left
> most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there
> is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off'
> position at breaker.
Not all three-light testers are the same; it would help to know if yours is the same as mine:
http://www.amazon.com/Gardner-GFI-501A-Receptacle-Circuit-Analyzer/dp/B00004WLJM
Assuming that it is, then this pattern of lights means that you have hot current on both the
ground and the neutral.
If you don't have a voltmeter, get one. The Harbor Freight $2.99 multimeter is actually a
pretty decent piece of gear.
Then do these tests:
1. Unplug the stove, turn the breaker for the stove circuit ON, and turn the breaker for the GFI
outlet OFF. Measure voltage between hot and neutral, hot and ground, and neutral and
ground at the GFI outlet. All three readings should be zero (or possibly a small fraction of
1V). Plug your tester into the outlet. All three lights should be off. If you read voltage here, or
if the tester lights up, STOP, call an electrician.
2. Check voltage at the stove receptacle: hot1 to hot2 (240V expected), hot1 to neutral
(120V), hot1 to ground (120V), hot2 to neutral (120V), hot2 to ground (120V), neutral to ground
(zero). [If the stove has a three-wire plug, omit the hot to neutral tests.]
3. Turn the stove breaker OFF, and the outlet breaker ON. Repeat the voltage
measurements at the stove receptacle. All voltages should be zero.
4. Repeat the voltage measurements at the GFI. Hot to neutral and hot to ground should be
120V, neutral to ground should be zero.
5. With the stove still unplugged, measure the resistance between the two hot prongs on the
stove plug. I think you'll see something between 5 and 10 ohms.
6. Measure the resistance between each hot prong and the ground prong on the plug. If it's
a 4-wire plug, repeat for hot to neutral. Let me know what you get for these measurements.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:krpine$q2q$1@dont-
email.me:
> Doug Miller wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:krpe59$n9$1@dont-
>> email.me:
>>
>>>
>>> I see where you were thinking now. The mouse scenario could make a
>>> cross connect, but the loosened wire nut - not so much.
>>>
>> Sure it could. Loose wire nut falls off, connection comes apart,
>> neutral conductor comes in contact with an equipment grounding
>> conductor.
>>
>> Not very likely, I'll grant. But it's still a possible scenario.
>
> Ok - I'll agree that it's possible. I'll also agree that it's not very
> likely. Yet - possible.
>
Whatever it is, it's got to be something strange. No possible fault in the stove could be
causing stray voltage on a completely separate 120V circuit -- therefore the two circuits are
not completely separate.
On Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:08:49 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 11:43 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> > On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:40:49 PM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
>=20
> >> On 7/11/2013 12:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4, [email protected]=
m wrote:
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently star=
ted to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned =
the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times =
even when the oven is not in use.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows al=
l three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V c=
ircuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years=
old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at breaker bo=
x the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I leave the tester in the =
outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the stove circuit the two right lights=
on tester go dim and the left most light flickers. When stove is unplugge=
d and I repeat there is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or =
'off' position at breaker.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> Did you test with the stove breaker ON, but the stove itself not plugg=
ed
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> into the outlet?
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Yes. It tests normal.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Don't laugh, did you test with your TS plugged in and running? I=20
>=20
> would want to eliminate the possibility of the circuit being used being=
=20
>=20
> the problem.
I'd have to swap out the plug on the saw to fit the 50A 220V receptacle. M=
ight be worth the trouble.
On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 12:38:45 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 7/11/2013 6:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
>>>> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
>>>> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>>
>>> Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the
>>> current in the oven circuit is inducing a small current in the other
>>> circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing GFCI.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Induced currents from the oven circuit when not in use????
>
>If it has a clock, or any type of electronic control panel, the oven circuit is still drawing power.
>
>> I'd agree w/ the GFCI being the likely culprit or there's an
>> intermittent on that circuit and the oven is basically a red herring.
One other consideration depending on the age of the house was they
used to allow the ground on an oven to serve as the nuetral for the
stove. If there is a problem with the stove and there are bare
grounds in a common box, however I wouldn't expect that with a 50 amp
circuit but you never know. I to would first replace the GFI & see if
it is the problem.
Mike M
On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrot=
e:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started t=
o throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the o=
ven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even =
when the oven is not in use.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all thr=
ee lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circui=
t) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester. =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old)=
has a component that has gone belly up. =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at breaker box the =
GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I leave the tester in the outlet=
and turn the breaker 'on' for the stove circuit the two right lights on te=
ster go dim and the left most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and =
I repeat there is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off' =
position at breaker.
This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI tripping. I am v=
exed.
On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:40:49 PM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 12:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> > On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4, [email protected] =
wrote:
>=20
> >> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently starte=
d to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned th=
e oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times ev=
en when the oven is not in use.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all =
three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V cir=
cuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years o=
ld) has a component that has gone belly up.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>=20
> >
>=20
> > I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at breaker box =
the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I leave the tester in the ou=
tlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the stove circuit the two right lights o=
n tester go dim and the left most light flickers. When stove is unplugged =
and I repeat there is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'o=
ff' position at breaker.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Did you test with the stove breaker ON, but the stove itself not plugged=
=20
>=20
> into the outlet?=20
Yes. It tests normal.
>I don't have a particular scenario in mind, but you=20
>=20
> might as well find out if the stove itself has anything to do with it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI tripping. I =
am vexed.
>=20
> >
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 13:31:42 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:51df7c6c$0$1210$c3e8da3 [email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my
>>>> wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same
>>>> GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>>>
>>>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows
>>>> all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the
>>>> dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the
>>>> tester.
>>>>
>>>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years
>>>> old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Does the stove/oven have a 3 Pin (L1, L2, G)or 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G)
>>> plug?
>>>
>>> A 3 Pin (L1, L2, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being fed
>>> by on leg (L1 or L2) and ground (G).
>>>
>>> A 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being
>>> fed by on leg (L1 or L2) and neutral
>>> (N).
>>>
>>> Either of these will generate an unbalanced load that may be
>>> significant enough to trip a GFI receptacle depending on how the
>>> circuitry in the house is wired.
>>
>> Only if the GFI is on one leg of the 240V circuit -- which it clearly
>> is not, since in the original post Brian described the GFI
>> functioning normally when the stove breaker was turned off.
>
>Besdies which - GFI's do not sense unbalanced loads.
We still don't know if the stove and gfci circuit are on a
sub-panel. I suspect they are.
[email protected] wrote:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
My non-professional guess is that the GFI receptacle has gone "bad", and
that the tester isn't sensitive enough to detect the problem. To me,
swapping out the receptacle seems like the obvious step to take before
calling a professional. Your mileage may vary based upon your wisdom
and experience. You have me curious, please report how it works out.
Bill
On 7/11/2013 6:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
>> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
>> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the
> current in the oven circuit is inducing a small current in the other
> circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing GFCI.
...
Induced currents from the oven circuit when not in use????
I'd agree w/ the GFCI being the likely culprit or there's an
intermittent on that circuit and the oven is basically a red herring.
--
Doug Miller wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
>> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
>> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the
> current in the oven circuit is inducing a small current in the other
> circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing GFCI.
>
>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it
>> shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on
>> the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct'
>> with the tester.
>
> I agree with Bill: first thing I'd do is replace the GFCI; it's a
> cheap and easy job. If the problem goes away, rest easy. If the
> problem persists, it's time to talk to an electrician.
>
>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15
>> years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
> I agree that something's gone belly up, but IMHO it's far more likely
> to be the GFCI.
>
>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> One last thought: post in alt.home.repair instead of here. There are
> at least two licensed professional electricians who read and post
> there regularly, and their advice is to be trusted: "RBM" and
> "gfretwell".
I agree with Doug, and I'll throw in another "when it all makes no sense"
thing... Always look at the neutral and ground when things seem to make no
sense. Check the buss bar(s) in the panel for signs of oxidation, loose
terminals, etc. Neutral problems are known for causing weird symptoms. I
realize that can be argued from the symptoms, as explained, but neutral
problems often present themselves that way. It's a quick check.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 7/11/2013 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 6:48 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 7/11/2013 6:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
>>>> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
>>>> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>>
>>> Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the
>>> current in the oven circuit is inducing a small current in the other
>>> circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing GFCI.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Induced currents from the oven circuit when not in use????
>>
>> I'd agree w/ the GFCI being the likely culprit or there's an
>> intermittent on that circuit and the oven is basically a red herring.
...
>
> Some of the newer GFI's now detect a slight problem with say a bad wire
> on a lamp cord, no short, but too much resistance. The oven probably is
> using some current all the time, such as the clock.
>
> I would suspect the GFI becoming way too sensitive to that possibility.
When there's nothing but the clock and whatever other micro-processor
loads only, the current flow to the range is miniscule. If that were
able to induce sufficient current to trip the GFCI in the second circuit
it would never stay on, not trip randomly. I stick w/ contention it's
more than likely unrelated to the range even tho I agree w/ the fault
probably associated w/ the GFCI itself.
Your example is a fault on the circuit in question, not some phantom
induced current from another circuit. Think it highly unlikely since
the problem now appears to be independent of the use and previously only
coincidental. Probably there's another appliance or particular light or
somesuch that is used when the range is used that was the culprit in
initiating the trip.
--
On 7/11/2013 12:18 AM, Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my
>> wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI
>> at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all
>> three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated
>> 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>>
>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years
>> old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>
>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> My non-professional guess is that the GFI receptacle has gone "bad", and
> that the tester isn't sensitive enough to detect the problem. To me,
> swapping out the receptacle seems like the obvious step to take before
> calling a professional. Your mileage may vary based upon your wisdom
> and experience. You have me curious, please report how it works out.
>
> Bill
Replace GFI, ~$10.
Replace oven, $100's.
Course of action seems clear.
js
On 7/11/2013 12:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>>
>>
>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>>
>>
>>
>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>
> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off' position at breaker.
Did you test with the stove breaker ON, but the stove itself not plugged
into the outlet? I don't have a particular scenario in mind, but you
might as well find out if the stove itself has anything to do with it.
> This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI tripping. I am vexed.
>
On 7/11/13 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 6:48 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 7/11/2013 6:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when
>>>> my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the
>>>> same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>>
>>> Probably, the cables for the two circuits are close together, and the
>>> current in the oven circuit is inducing a small current in the other
>>> circuit -- causing nuisance trips in a failing GFCI.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Induced currents from the oven circuit when not in use????
>>
>> I'd agree w/ the GFCI being the likely culprit or there's an
>> intermittent on that circuit and the oven is basically a red herring.
>>
>> --
>
>
> Some of the newer GFI's now detect a slight problem with say a bad wire
> on a lamp cord, no short, but too much resistance. The oven probably is
> using some current all the time, such as the clock.
>
> I would suspect the GFI becoming way too sensitive to that possibility.
While you're checking this other stuff, check the main 220v receptacle
for the oven.
I don't know how old your house is, but they were using aluminum wire
for high current 220v to ovens and furnaces back in the day. Most
receptacles have copper connection. Aluminum to copper can spark and it
ends up melting the insulators and can be dangerous, obviously.
Check your wire connections to the receptacle in the box in/on the wall
to see if this is happening. If you do have aluminum wire, you don't
have to replace it. They make retro-fit receptacles with aluminum
connectors or copper that uses a dielectric grease to stop sparking.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 7/11/2013 2:36 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>
> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
Ah. I see you have checked the GFI with the stove unplugged.
Have you tested the stove outlet itself for proper wiring? I can't quite
work it out in my head, but I wonder if the neutral is hooked up
properly. The fact that you mentioned the oven light is what made me
think of that. The heating element of the stove probably doesn't need
the neutral at all, but the light does.
Does the stove circuit share a neutral with the GFI?
When we moved into our house there was an outlet with no true neutral.
Some jackass had managed to make the outlet "work" by attaching the
neutral screw of the outlet to the metal outlet box which was grounded
through the BX cable. Never rule out idiocy in cases like this.
On 7/11/13 12:36 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> While you're checking this other stuff, check the main 220v receptacle
>> for the oven.
>> I don't know how old your house is, but they were using aluminum wire
>> for high current 220v to ovens and furnaces back in the day. Most
>> receptacles have copper connection. Aluminum to copper can spark and it
>> ends up melting the insulators and can be dangerous, obviously.
>
> Not spark...
>
> When dissimilar metals are in contact, they can galvanically corrode. The
> corrosion causes additional resistance, which leads to heat build-up. The
> heat can build up to the point where nearby combustible materials will,
> well, combust.
>
> Aluminium conductors also expand and contract with temperature changes more
> than copper; in smaller (AWG 12) gauge connections this may loosen
> the connection over time, which also increases resistance which leads
> to heat, which can lead to fire. This generally doesn't happen with
> the connectors used for #6/#4 50A 220V recepts, if they are torqued correctly
> when installed.
>
> Brian's problem is likley to be a loose neutral somewhere, or a
> a three-wire 220 circuit injecting current into a shared ground because
> the appliance (stove) is cheating by using one 220VAC leg and the ground
> to get 120V for the oven light (since a three-wire circuit won't have a
> grounded conductor, only a grounding conductor).
>
> scott
>
Opinions among electricians are as varied as among woodworkers. :-)
My buddy who is an EE with AEP told me when those connections do end up
loosening because of the reasons you describe, they will often spark,
causing a fire.
Whatever the specifics, you want to make sure yours is a safe situation,
installed correctly by someone who knew what he was doing.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 12:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4,
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my
>>> wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same
>>> GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows
>>> all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the
>>> dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the
>>> tester.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years
>>> old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>>
>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>>
>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at breaker
>> box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I leave the tester
>> in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the stove circuit the two
>> right lights on tester go dim and the left most light flickers. When
>> stove is unplugged and I repeat there is no difference at tester when
>> circuit is in 'on' or 'off' position at breaker.
>
> Did you test with the stove breaker ON, but the stove itself not
> plugged into the outlet? I don't have a particular scenario in mind,
> but you might as well find out if the stove itself has anything to do
> with it.
Good idea!!! : )
>
>> This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI tripping.
>> I am vexed.
>>
>
Doug Miller wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>>
>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at
>> breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I
>> leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the
>> stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left
>> most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there
>> is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off'
>> position at breaker.
>>
>> This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI
>> tripping. I am vexed.
>
> I think it's time to call an electrician, Brian. The two circuits are
> cross-connected somehow -- possibly sharing a neutral -- and this is
> potentially *very* dangerous.
>
How would that suddenly just happen?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Doug Miller wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:51df7c6c$0$1210$c3e8da3 [email protected]:
>
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently
>>> started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my
>>> wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same
>>> GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>>
>>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows
>>> all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the
>>> dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the
>>> tester.
>>>
>>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years
>>> old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>>
>>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Does the stove/oven have a 3 Pin (L1, L2, G)or 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G)
>> plug?
>>
>> A 3 Pin (L1, L2, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being fed
>> by on leg (L1 or L2) and ground (G).
>>
>> A 4 Pin (L1, L2, N, G) plug indicates that any 120V loads are being
>> fed by on leg (L1 or L2) and neutral
>> (N).
>>
>> Either of these will generate an unbalanced load that may be
>> significant enough to trip a GFI receptacle depending on how the
>> circuitry in the house is wired.
>
> Only if the GFI is on one leg of the 240V circuit -- which it clearly
> is not, since in the original post Brian described the GFI
> functioning normally when the stove breaker was turned off.
Besdies which - GFI's do not sense unbalanced loads.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Doug Miller wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:kro0al$qq5$1@dont-
> email.me:
>
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>>>>
>>>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at
>>>> breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I
>>>> leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the
>>>> stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left
>>>> most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there
>>>> is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off'
>>>> position at breaker.
>>>>
>>>> This is a problem that has steadily worsened with the GFI
>>>> tripping. I am vexed.
>>>
>>> I think it's time to call an electrician, Brian. The two circuits
>>> are cross-connected somehow -- possibly sharing a neutral -- and
>>> this is potentially *very* dangerous.
>>>
>>
>> How would that suddenly just happen?
>>
> Improperly-made connection eventually opened up. One possibility is a
> loose wire nut somewhere on the neutral conductor for the circuit the
> GFI is on.
>
> Another possibility is a mouse making contact between two conductors
> (don't scoff, I've seen that happen).
>
> Something strange is going on here, which is why I advised Brian to
> get an electrician out ASAP. Tough to try to diagnose this from 800
> miles away. Somebody needs hands-on.
I see where you were thinking now. The mouse scenario could make a cross
connect, but the loosened wire nut - not so much.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Doug Miller wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:krpe59$n9$1@dont-
> email.me:
>
>>
>> I see where you were thinking now. The mouse scenario could make a
>> cross connect, but the loosened wire nut - not so much.
>>
> Sure it could. Loose wire nut falls off, connection comes apart,
> neutral conductor comes in contact with an equipment grounding
> conductor.
>
> Not very likely, I'll grant. But it's still a possible scenario.
Ok - I'll agree that it's possible. I'll also agree that it's not very
likely. Yet - possible.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 7/11/2013 10:25 AM, Markem wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:36:35 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
> wrote:
>
>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>>
>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>
>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> Replace the GFI device first.
>
Absolutely the least expensive and easiest thing to start with when
narrowing down the problem.
On 7/11/2013 11:43 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:40:49 PM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 7/11/2013 12:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:36:35 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>> My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off' position at breaker.
>>
>>
>>
>> Did you test with the stove breaker ON, but the stove itself not plugged
>>
>> into the outlet?
>
>
> Yes. It tests normal.
Don't laugh, did you test with your TS plugged in and running? I
would want to eliminate the possibility of the circuit being used being
the problem.
>> We still don't know if the stove and gfci circuit are on a
>> sub-panel. I suspect they are.
>That was my first thought ... but I usually stay out of wRec electrical
>threads.
Yep.
John T.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 7/12/2013 3:23 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> We still don't know if the stove and gfci circuit are on a
> sub-panel. I suspect they are.
That was my first thought ... but I usually stay out of wRec electrical
threads.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:46:34 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> I swapped out the GFI and I still test 'bad' with outlet tester.
>>
>> With the stove plugged in and circuit in 'off' position at
>> breaker box the GFI tests normal (two right lights). When I
>> leave the tester in the outlet and turn the breaker 'on' for the
>> stove circuit the two right lights on tester go dim and the left
>> most light flickers. When stove is unplugged and I repeat there
>> is no difference at tester when circuit is in 'on' or 'off'
>> position at breaker.
>
>Not all three-light testers are the same; it would help to know if yours is the same as mine:
>http://www.amazon.com/Gardner-GFI-501A-Receptacle-Circuit-Analyzer/dp/B00004WLJM
>
>Assuming that it is, then this pattern of lights means that you have hot current on both the
>ground and the neutral.
>
>If you don't have a voltmeter, get one. The Harbor Freight $2.99 multimeter is actually a
>pretty decent piece of gear.
>
>Then do these tests:
>
>1. Unplug the stove, turn the breaker for the stove circuit ON, and turn the breaker for the GFI
>outlet OFF. Measure voltage between hot and neutral, hot and ground, and neutral and
>ground at the GFI outlet. All three readings should be zero (or possibly a small fraction of
>1V). Plug your tester into the outlet. All three lights should be off. If you read voltage here, or
>if the tester lights up, STOP, call an electrician.
>
>2. Check voltage at the stove receptacle: hot1 to hot2 (240V expected), hot1 to neutral
>(120V), hot1 to ground (120V), hot2 to neutral (120V), hot2 to ground (120V), neutral to ground
>(zero). [If the stove has a three-wire plug, omit the hot to neutral tests.]
>
>3. Turn the stove breaker OFF, and the outlet breaker ON. Repeat the voltage
>measurements at the stove receptacle. All voltages should be zero.
>
>4. Repeat the voltage measurements at the GFI. Hot to neutral and hot to ground should be
>120V, neutral to ground should be zero.
>
>5. With the stove still unplugged, measure the resistance between the two hot prongs on the
>stove plug. I think you'll see something between 5 and 10 ohms.
5 to 10 ohms across L1 to L2? That would be a 25 amp load with
everything shut off. I don't think so!!! Between hots there should
be virtually infinite resistance. Between one line and neutral/ground
you should see better than 50 ohms - ideally closer to 500 ohms -
which is the clock / controller load. With the oven door open that
should drop to 220 ohms or less (40 watt 120 volt).
Turn on any element and the line to line should drop to something less
than 20 ohms.
>
>6. Measure the resistance between each hot prong and the ground prong on the plug. If it's
>a 4-wire plug, repeat for hot to neutral. Let me know what you get for these measurements.
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:36:35 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
wrote:
>My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet
>on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw
>the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
>I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim.
> When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct'
>with the tester.
>
>What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component
>that has gone belly up.
>
>Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I would agree that the first thing to do is to replace the GFI outlet.
If that does not solve the problem, I would tighten the screws on the
connections to these circuits in the panel box - especially the white
(neutral) and ground wires. You may have a poor connection in that
neutral in the box or even at one of the connections feeding the house
from the power company's trasformer. Doesn't happen often but can
cause all sorts of strange symptoms.
Gerry
On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:36:35 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
wrote:
>My electric oven is on its own 220V 50amp circuit. It recently started to throw a GFI outlet on a separate circuit (110V) when my wife turned the oven light on. Now it's started to throw the same GFI at random times even when the oven is not in use.
>
>I checked the GFI receptacle w/ a three light tester and it shows all three lights on but dim. When I unplug the oven (on the dedicated 220V circuit) the 110V GFI checks out 'correct' with the tester.
>
>What the heck is going on? My gut tells me that the stove (15 years old) has a component that has gone belly up.
>
>Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Replace the GFI device first.