I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
be run off of it?
Plug looks like:
\ /
|
2. Is it worth converting the saw to 220?
Thanks,
Dave
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be >20 A @
>110V
Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
The kitchen is directly above the workshop and the outlet is mounted to
a joist below the kitchen (of ceiling of the shop) directly above the
table saw. There was a hole in the kitchen floor behind the stove
where the stove plug was passed through. I used this hole to run the
gas line through. I did this some time ago. I could never figure out
why, with natural gas run to the house, the dryer and stover were
electric (water heater was gas).
Dave
You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."
I love the wreck.
Mutt
The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.
I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
right). Anyway the 40A breaker supplies the outlet approximately 8 ft
away from the panel. There is nothing else connected to this circuit.
I don't know the gauge of the wire, but it if a fat sucker. Since I
installed the gas line 20 years ago, the prior owner could have only
used electric. So the circuit was installed in the early 60's.
Thanks for all the responses. I think I know what to do now.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:17:06 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>Whatever you do, if toller posts any sort of recommendation, run,
>>don't walk away from it.
>>
>You're being too hard on him, LRod. He's actually answered a couple of
>electrical questions correctly in a.h.r. the last few days... by waiting to
>see what I, or Tom Horne, or a few others, respond, and then posting a "me
>too".
See below. We may have to add a name to the list.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On 25 May 2005 12:20:26 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
>the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.
>
>I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
> One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
>definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
>in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
>the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
>addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
>the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
>right). Anyway the 40A breaker supplies the outlet approximately 8 ft
>away from the panel. There is nothing else connected to this circuit.
>I don't know the gauge of the wire, but it if a fat sucker. Since I
>installed the gas line 20 years ago, the prior owner could have only
>used electric. So the circuit was installed in the early 60's.
Okay. If this retrofit was done correctly, the neutral and ground bus
bars in the "old" (now sub) panel were separated. Your (saw circuit)
neutral wire connects to the now separate neutral bus bar and that bus
in turn is wired to the common neutral-ground bus in the new service
panel. This point is the earth ground reference.
*All* of the neutral currents from the "old" panel are now conducted
by the one neutral wire back to the new panel where the wire connects
to earth. So your circuit *is not* the only thing on this neutral
conductor. Much of the rest of your house is a common load.
Now I don't know how far apart these panels are. They might be bolted
together for all I know, in which case there is essentially no issue.
However, if they are separated some distance then there will be some
I^2 * R voltage drop in the neutral wire connecting the panels. If
the loads on the two phases are split reasonably well, then the
neutral current should be small. However, a major fault on some
circuit can drive the current very high until a breaker opens. This
will yank the neutral to some potential further above ground. If you
are clamped onto your saw at the time with your feet on damp concrete,
who knows what will happen.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
> kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
> stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>
> 1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
> be run off of it?
>
> Plug looks like:
> \ /
> |
>
>
> 2. Is it worth converting the saw to 220?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave
>
2. You will definitely notice the difference. My 746 struggled to cut 6/4
hardwood on 110V and would occasionally pop a breaker. On 220, with the same
blade, it is like a different saw. Faster start-up, and no sign of bog
unless I feed too fast.
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I can't see what you say because I block your posts.
Liar.
>And if I happened to agree with anything you said, there would be no reason
>to post anything at all.
Tell you what, Toller: you stop posting stupid, incorrect, dangerous answers
to electrical questions... and I'll stop calling your answers stupid,
incorrect, and dangerous.
Deal?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:09:51 GMT, Jim <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The people who build the houses are more interested in the cost to buy
> rather than the cost to operate. As an aside, I have never owned an
> electric dryer because they cost more to operate.
Not if you have time-of-use electricity billing and use it during
off-peak times...
[email protected] wrote:
>
> I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
> kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
> stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>
> 1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
> be run off of it?
>
> Plug looks like:
> \ /
> |
>
> 2. Is it worth converting the saw to 220?
>
1. Yes although the matching plug is somewhat of a pita on a smaller
device there's nothing unsafe. Remember, the circuit protection is to
protect the fixed wiring, not the device plugged into it.
Also, how are you going to get from the location in the kitchen to the
shop? Would seem potentially simpler to run a 220 circuit in the shop
where I would presume the distribution panel is in the basement, anyway.
2. I run everything I can on 220 just to cut down the higher amperage a
110 draws. The actual difference in efficiency is small...
[email protected] wrote:
>
> The kitchen is directly above the workshop and the outlet is mounted to
> a joist below the kitchen (of ceiling of the shop) directly above the
> table saw. There was a hole in the kitchen floor behind the stove
> where the stove plug was passed through. I used this hole to run the
> gas line through. I did this some time ago. I could never figure out
> why, with natural gas run to the house, the dryer and stover were
> electric (water heater was gas).
>
I'd then make a pigtail to plug into the existing outlet and make it
long enough to reach a convenient location to plug in the saw on the
other end with a 20A connector.
woodworker88 wrote:
>
> >"I'd make a pigtail to plug into the existing outlet..."
>
> I wouldn't. I would just pay an electrician to take the cover off the
> outlet plate, remove the outlet, then extend conduit to install a new
> box and outlet with the correct plug right next to the saw.
That would work, but doesn't need an electrician necessarily, either...
Primaryy reason I wouldn't bother is there is no reason to have the
heavy wire required for the 40A circuit to go to a second box and it
wouldn't be code to put extend less than a 40A outlet on that circuit as
a fixed component. Of course, could go back and replace the 40A breaker
w/ smaller, but that adds even more unnecessary expense...
Doug Miller wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 24 May 2005 09:49:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >>I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
> >>kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
> >>stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
> >>
> >>1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
> >>be run off of it?
> >
> >Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
> >appropriate connector.
>
> It already *has* an "appropriately sized breaker" (presuming the stove
> installation was Code-compliant). The breaker is there to protect the wiring
> and the receptacle, not the device that's plugged in.
>
> It may not be possible to install "the appropriate connector", as the wiring
> for a Code-compliant 40A circuit is certainly at least #8, possibly as large
> as #6 - and the "appropriate" 20- or 30-amp receptacle is unlikely to be rated
> for use with wires that large.
...
That's why I suggested the pigtail solution --
If it were actually my shop, I'd probably have already run dedicated
circuits for the stationary tools rather than trying to use this one,
but OP's situation may not be convenient.
David Bridgeman wrote:
>
> Duane,
>
> Thanks for the response. So, by pigtail you mean us a male plug that
> matches the 40A outlet, connect a sufficient gauge wire, the connect a 240v
> 20A female at the other end?
>
Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be >20 A @
110V, so that's overkill for 220V. That needs 12 ga. I would <not>
suggest anything other than a single-use extension, however.
If you have need/use for additional 220V outlets in the shop area, I'd
either run a dedicated circuit or make the appropriate changes as others
have noted to convert this to a dedicated "up-to-snuff" circuit--and, it
would be better to have the separate shop circuit properly sized and
leave the kitchen circuit as is in that case imo.
Juergen Hannappel wrote:
>
> [email protected] (Doug Miller) writes:
>
> [...]
>
> >
> > For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
> > *only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
> > not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.
>
> Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
> leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
> have a magnetic starter...)
...
Probably not in this case...the particular saw in question is a
convertible 110/220V model, not a stationary. It <probably> has
double-pole mechanical switch.
Doug Miller wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be >20 A @
> >110V
>
> Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?
Actually, it was supposition that it would be highly unlikely...poor
choice, probably to say "can't".
LRod wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:38:52 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >>Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be >20 A @
> >>110V
> >
> >Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?
>
> It probably isn't any bigger than, say 2½ HP (since it's a convertible
> motor). Are there any convertible motors bigger than that? Are there
> any that big? That would definitely max out a 20A/120V circuit. I
> think that's what he was getting at. We already know it's a
> convertible motor and we can thus speculate with some authority from
> there, can't we?
That was basis of my conjecture, yes...what is largest convertible
available I don't know.
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Two questions:
>
> Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the
> connections match your above safety list?
>
> Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service
> was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)
...
Yes (to both).
On Tue, 24 May 2005 17:59:44 -0700, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com>
wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:14:36 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 May 2005 15:18:31 -0700, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 24 May 2005 09:49:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
>>>>kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
>>>>stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>>>>
>>>>1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
>>>>be run off of it?
>>>
>>>Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>>>appropriate connector. And remember, that third wire *is not* an
>>>equipment ground, but the neutral.
>>
>>Uh, how do you figure that? While the stove *may* have used the third
>>wire as a neutral (under an NEC exception for many years), the circuit
>>and outlet have no way of knowing what's plugged into it, and the
>>third wire is connected to the ground bus back at the panel. Even if
>>it's tied to the "neutral" bus, unless the panel is a sub-panel, the
>>neutral and ground busses are tied together anyway.
>
>I know that the neutral and grounding conductor are tied together at
>the service entrance. That *does not* mean that a grounding conductor
>and neutral are at the same potential anywhere else.
>
>This was true even in a clothes dryer or electric range, where lights,
>motors, timers, etc ran from one phase to neutral. Admittedly these
>load currents are small, however, in the strictest sense, there is a
>voltage drop in the neutral between the load and the service panel.
>Therefore, a non-current carrying grounding conductor and the neutral
>have different potentials at the load end.
Perhaps I could have been clearer. Once the stove/dryer is
disconnected none of what you say applies. Moreover, the OP said the
stove in use was gas, therefore there was nothing connected.
Consequently there are no 120V load currents in that line. Until there
is a load on that circuit that uses the third wire as a neutral it is
as proper an equipment ground as you could wish.
Unless the panel is a subpanel. Then you need to make sure the ground
wire is attached to the ground bus. You are aware that some
jurisdictions have the main breaker at the meter and that what most of
us would consider the main load center (breaker panel) in the
basement/utility closet is actually a subpanel.
>>No, with no stove (or dryer) connected, that third wire is definitely
>>an equipment ground.
>
>Unless there is some other load on the same circuit, something that
>you do not know.
Since a stove or dryer is on its own breaker, and since in this case
the stove is not connected, we DO know there is no other load on the
circuit.
>By your reasoning, we can just eliminate grounding conductors; after
>all, the neutral is grounded at the service entrance. Tie it to the
>frame of your table saw and sit back and hope that nothing goes wrong.
That's not at all what I was saying or even implying. There was no
stove connected. Therefore, there is no current flowing in the
grounding wire (it is NOT a neutral).
>If the National Fire Protection Association thought that what you say
>is true, I doubt that they would have made the NEC change that now
>requires four wires, two phases, neutral and grounding conductor.
If you want to read that into my post, enjoy yourself.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> In article <[email protected]>, "toller"
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his
>>>>>>stove,
>>>>>>or
>>>>>>range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green
>>>>>>wire
>>>>>>from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit
>>>>>>*neutral*
>>>>>>_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>connect it to *ground*.
>>>>
>>>>"Here are the instructions from Jennair:
>>>>
>>>>'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
>>>>the green grounding wire.'"
>>>
>>> Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates
>>> clearly
>>> that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:
>>>
>>> Here are the instructions from Jennair:
>>>
>>> "The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
>>> the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
>>> installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
>>> vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
>>> grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
>>> disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
>>> ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
>>> neutral to the service neutral."
>>>
>>>>So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?
>>>
>>> When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".
>>>
>>> Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions:
>>> "...connect
>>> the green wire to ground..."
>>>
>>He had a three wire circuit. What ground?
>
> The metal flex conduit that he described in the first sentence of the
> original
> post.
>
>>I was quite correct,
>
> Obviously you were not.
>
>>which I presume you are smart enough to know; but are
>>just too big an ass to admit.
>
> I'm certainly smart enough to know the difference between neutral and
> ground.
> And I'll never admit that you were right here, because you *clearly* are
> totally wrong. *Read* the thread, for crying out loud: the instructions
> the
> guy quoted say clearly to connect the green wire to ground, and you told
> him
> just as clearly to connect it to the circuit neutral. How can you possibly
> think even for a moment that you were right?
>
>>What on earth motivates you to act like this?
>
> It's really very simple, troller: the electrical "advice" you give is
> incorrect and dangerous. You don't have the first idea what the hell
> you're
> talking about. You know just enough about it to sound knowledgeable to
> someone
> who knows less about it than you do, but most of what you say is just flat
> wrong (like the instance we're discussing right now) - and a lot of it is
> downright dangerous. My motivation is to keep other people from getting
> injured or killed by following your incorrect and dangerous "advice".
>
God, you just don't give up!
I can't imagine what you are like in person.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, "Pig" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
>>and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
>>word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
>>a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
>>is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
>>with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
>>stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
>>solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
>>wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
>>all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."
>
>ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but
>at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is
>actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod
>and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he
>told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected
>to the circuit neutral,
Not taking sides in this tar baby punching contest, but you're now
worried about connecting "ground" to "neutral"? [g]
How come when I suggest this is something best avoided, I'm
excessively cautious? Maybe so... I wouldn't rely on a Sawstop
either.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>Whatever you do, if toller posts any sort of recommendation, run,
>don't walk away from it.
>
You're being too hard on him, LRod. He's actually answered a couple of
electrical questions correctly in a.h.r. the last few days... by waiting to
see what I, or Tom Horne, or a few others, respond, and then posting a "me
too".
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, Juergen Hannappel <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Doug Miller) writes:
>
>
>[...]
>
>>
>> For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
>> *only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
>> not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.
>
>Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
>leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
>have a magnetic starter...)
What difference does it make? The saw's power cord has only three wires: two
hots, and equipment ground.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:38:52 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be >20 A @
>>110V
>
>Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?
It probably isn't any bigger than, say 2½ HP (since it's a convertible
motor). Are there any convertible motors bigger than that? Are there
any that big? That would definitely max out a 20A/120V circuit. I
think that's what he was getting at. We already know it's a
convertible motor and we can thus speculate with some authority from
there, can't we?
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I know that the neutral and grounding conductor are tied together at
>the service entrance. That *does not* mean that a grounding conductor
>and neutral are at the same potential anywhere else.
However, it *does* mean that the conductor that had previously been used as
the neutral for the electric stove *can* be used as the equipment ground for
the table saw.
>
>This was true even in a clothes dryer or electric range, where lights,
>motors, timers, etc ran from one phase to neutral. Admittedly these
>load currents are small, however, in the strictest sense, there is a
>voltage drop in the neutral between the load and the service panel.
>Therefore, a non-current carrying grounding conductor and the neutral
>have different potentials at the load end.
That's true - but none of it matters anymore after that dual 120/240V load
(the stove) had been disconnected. He's talking about connecting a pure 240V
load to it. He needs only three conductors for that load, not four, and he has
all three available. What's the problem?
>
>By your reasoning, we can just eliminate grounding conductors; after
>all, the neutral is grounded at the service entrance. Tie it to the
>frame of your table saw and sit back and hope that nothing goes wrong.
Sorry, Wes, your reality check just bounced. That's a complete non-sequitur.
As I said above, he needs three wires, he has three wires, no problem.
>If the National Fire Protection Association thought that what you say
>is true, I doubt that they would have made the NEC change that now
>requires four wires, two phases, neutral and grounding conductor.
For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use *only* 240V
(and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do not need a neutral, no,
the NEC does *not* require four wires.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>You're being too hard on him, LRod. He's actually answered a couple of
>>>electrical questions correctly in a.h.r. the last few days... by waiting
>>>to
>>>see what I, or Tom Horne, or a few others, respond, and then posting a "me
>>>too".
>>
>I assume this is from Doug, the alpha jerk...
>
>I can't see what you say because I block your posts.
Toller, I *know* that's not true. It's obvious you have been reading at least
some of my posts, because (a) you've been parroting my electrical advice in
a.h.r. and (b) you replied to one of them a few days ago.
>And if I happened to agree with anything you said, there would be no reason
>to post anything at all.
I get worried when you agree with anything I say - I immediately check to see
if I made a mistake.
I certainly agree that when it comes to electrical issues, there is no reason
for you to post anything at all. You don't know what you're talking about; the
only way you *ever* give correct electrical advice is when you're repeating
what someone else has said. When you strike out on your own, you're dangerous.
>
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
>>In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
>>or
>>range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
>>from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
>>_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
>>connect it to *ground*.
>>
That you alpha-turd?
"Here are the instructions from Jennair:
'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire.'"
So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?
>>You're being too hard on him, LRod. He's actually answered a couple of
>>electrical questions correctly in a.h.r. the last few days... by waiting
>>to
>>see what I, or Tom Horne, or a few others, respond, and then posting a "me
>>too".
>
I assume this is from Doug, the alpha jerk...
I can't see what you say because I block your posts.
And if I happened to agree with anything you said, there would be no reason
to post anything at all.
In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, "Pig"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
>>>and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
>>>word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
>>>a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
>>>is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
>>>with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
>>>stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
>>>solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
>>>wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
>>>all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."
>>
>>ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but
>>at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is
>>actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod
>>and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he
>>told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected
>>to the circuit neutral,
>
>Not taking sides in this tar baby punching contest, but you're now
>worried about connecting "ground" to "neutral"? [g]
Two separate issues.
In the stove-cum-tablesaw circuit thread, we are discussing connecting a pure
240V device (two hots and a ground, no neutral) to a circuit that has three
conductors. You claim, utterly without foundation, that to do so is incorrect.
In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove, or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
connect it to *ground*.
>How come when I suggest this is something best avoided, I'm
>excessively cautious? Maybe so... I wouldn't rely on a Sawstop
>either.
If you don't see that these are two separate issues - and *why* - you probably
shouldn't be giving out electrical advice *either*.
In the first case, there is no neutral in the proposed circuit; in the second
case, there *is* a neutral *and* an equipment ground, and we have an ignoramus
who says it's ok to interconnect them.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>>>>In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
>>>>or
>>>>range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green
>>>>wire
>>>>from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
>>>>_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
>>>>connect it to *ground*.
>>
>>"Here are the instructions from Jennair:
>>
>>'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
>>the green grounding wire.'"
>
> Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates
> clearly
> that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:
>
> Here are the instructions from Jennair:
>
> "The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
> the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
> installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
> vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
> grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
> disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
> ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
> neutral to the service neutral."
>
>>So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?
>
> When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".
>
> Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions:
> "...connect
> the green wire to ground..."
>
He had a three wire circuit. What ground?
I was quite correct, which I presume you are smart enough to know; but are
just too big an ass to admit.
What on earth motivates you to act like this?
In article <[email protected]>, "Pig" <[email protected]> wrote:
>You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
>and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
>word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
>a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
>is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
>with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
>stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
>solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
>wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
>all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."
ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but
at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is
actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod
and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he
told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected
to the circuit neutral, advised another to connect a multiwire branch circuit
to the two poles of a duplex 120V breaker, and claimed that it's nearly
impossible to receive a fatal shock from 60Hz 120VAC.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>> appropriate connector.
>
>You shouldn't say that! A bunch of morons will tell you that the breaker is
>there to protect the supply wiring and not the item plugged into it; and
>since the breaker is appropriate to the supply wiring, there is no reason to
>change the breaker.
That's true, whether you know it or not.
And you say you're not reading my posts...
>Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they
>can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it
>is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.
I suppose, then, that you have your alarm clock plugged into a circuit that's
protected by a 1-amp fuse?
>Incidently, the third conductor on the cables to my dryer and stove is an
>"uninsulated neutral". Looks like a ground to me; but I guess it works the
>same regardless of what you call it.
More evidence of your unsuitability for giving electrical advice.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:09:51 GMT, Jim <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> The people who build the houses are more interested in the cost to buy
>> rather than the cost to operate. As an aside, I have never owned an
>> electric dryer because they cost more to operate.
>
>Not if you have time-of-use electricity billing and use it during
>off-peak times...
But not everyone is able to schedule doing his laundry at 2:30am...
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> why, with natural gas run to the house, the dryer and stover were
> electric (water heater was gas).
Electric dryers and stoves are cheaper than gas.
Jim
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
>the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.
>
>I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
> One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
>definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
>in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
>the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
>addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
>the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
>right).
That being the case - in order to do this safely:
a) the subpanel must have a separate grounding bus bar...
b) ... which must be connected to the ground or neutral bus in the main panel
c) ... and must NOT be connected to the neutral bus in the subpanel
d) and the grounding conductor of the circuit must be connected to the
*ground* bus in the subpanel.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Duane,
Thanks for the response. So, by pigtail you mean us a male plug that
matches the 40A outlet, connect a sufficient gauge wire, the connect a 240v
20A female at the other end?
Dave
"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> The kitchen is directly above the workshop and the outlet is mounted to
>> a joist below the kitchen (of ceiling of the shop) directly above the
>> table saw. There was a hole in the kitchen floor behind the stove
>> where the stove plug was passed through. I used this hole to run the
>> gas line through. I did this some time ago. I could never figure out
>> why, with natural gas run to the house, the dryer and stover were
>> electric (water heater was gas).
>>
> I'd then make a pigtail to plug into the existing outlet and make it
> long enough to reach a convenient location to plug in the saw on the
> other end with a 20A connector.
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 03:12:56 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they
>>>can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it
>>>is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.
>>
>> Where do you find the 1/10 A breakers to protect your light bulbs?
>> Where do you get the ¼ A breakers to protect your clock radio? Where
>> did you find a panel that would accommodate all of those little
>> breakers (must be a half a hundred or more in an average house)?
>> I assume from your reasoning above that you would want to protect all
>> your low current devices plugged into your massive 15A and 20A
>> circuits, "for the price of a breaker."
>>
>Damn, you are incredibly stupid.
This, coming from the guy who, just in the last month, has:
a) claimed that it was nearly impossible to get a fatal shock from 60Hz 120VAC
b) admitted to working on branch circuits without verifying that power was off
c) advised connecting an appliance equipment ground conductor to the *neutral*
of the circuit supplying it
d) advised connecting both legs of a multiwire circuit to a single pole duplex
breaker.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 24 May 2005 09:49:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
>>kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
>>stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>>
>>1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
>>be run off of it?
>
>Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>appropriate connector.
It already *has* an "appropriately sized breaker" (presuming the stove
installation was Code-compliant). The breaker is there to protect the wiring
and the receptacle, not the device that's plugged in.
It may not be possible to install "the appropriate connector", as the wiring
for a Code-compliant 40A circuit is certainly at least #8, possibly as large
as #6 - and the "appropriate" 20- or 30-amp receptacle is unlikely to be rated
for use with wires that large.
>And remember, that third wire *is not* an
>equipment ground, but the neutral.
It's a neutral in a 240V electric range circuit only because electric ranges
contain both 120V and 240V equipment, and the 120V control circuits need the
neutral. If you connect a pure 240V load such as a 240V motor to this circuit,
there is no neutral, and the third wire is the equipment ground.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
[email protected] wrote:
> Two questions:
>
> Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the
> connections match your above safety list?
>
> Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service
> was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Dave
>
You know Dave, seeing that you are talking about just an 8ft run to the
existing range receptacle and sounds like not far from there to your
saw, I would be inclined just to go into the panel disconnect and remove
the existing range circuit - replace the breaker with the needed 20A -
2pole 240V and put a new run of 12AWG 2+gnd to a 20A receptacle at the
saw - job done. I believe you are required to have an inspection.
Do not leave the disconnected cable inside the panel. It must be
removed from the panel but you could leave it tacked up nearby for a
possible future. If there is truly no ground in this cable it likely is
likely of little use for code compliance in future.
An alternate if you think you may have more 240V loads could be to use
the existing 40A breaker and supply a small sub to provide multiple
branch circuits, 120 or 240, for your workshop.
Ed
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so ...advised another
>>to connect a multiwire branch circuit to the two poles of a duplex
>>120V breaker...
>
>Dear god, tell me he didn't. And here I thought (for a picosecond)
>that maybe I was being a little insensitive to him.
Yes, he did - because he thought that the "1 pole duplex" breaker that the OP
in the thread referred to, was a 240V breaker. Whether the mistake was due to
inattention, ignorance, malice, stupidity, or a combination thereof is
impossible to tell, but there it is.
Google alt.home.repair for the phrase "duplex breaker" on 14 May 2005 for all
the gory details.
>
>For those who don't know, the multiwire branch circuit is like a 240V
>circuit with a neutral which functions as two 120V circuits with a
>common neutral. A duplex 240V breaker is required since the concept of
>the common neutral is that the return currents of the two circuits
>being fed 180° out of phase (by virtue of the duplex 240V breaker) are
>in turn 180° out of phase and thus cancel. They can never sum to more
>than the capacity of one leg of the breaker, regardless of any
>imbalance of loads on the two branches, consequently the neutral is
>safe insofar as its current carrying is concerned.
>
>To attempt to wire that circuit from a duplex 120V breaker means that
>both hots are of the same phase, and thus the return currents are
>additive, equalling as much as TWICE the breaker current (depending on
>the total load), and obviously much greater than the ampacity of the
>neutral wire.
>
>And you guys think we're bitchslapping him just for amusement.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 03:12:56 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>>> appropriate connector.
>>
>>You shouldn't say that! A bunch of morons will tell you that the breaker
>>is
>>there to protect the supply wiring and not the item plugged into it; and
>>since the breaker is appropriate to the supply wiring, there is no reason
>>to
>>change the breaker.
>
> Everyone's out of step but you, eh? >
No, just about 4 morons. If I was in step with them I would really worry.
>>Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they
>>can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it
>>is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.
>
> Where do you find the 1/10 A breakers to protect your light bulbs?
> Where do you get the ¼ A breakers to protect your clock radio? Where
> did you find a panel that would accommodate all of those little
> breakers (must be a half a hundred or more in an average house)?
> I assume from your reasoning above that you would want to protect all
> your low current devices plugged into your massive 15A and 20A
> circuits, "for the price of a breaker."
>
Damn, you are incredibly stupid.
Why would you make such silly assumptions otherwise?
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:design-C19D38.14545824052005
@news.bellglobal.com:
> That must be why in the 3 years that I converted from an electric range
> to natural gas, that I paid for the new gas range range with the savings.
> It may be different in some areas, but here? Gas costs about 25% per BTU
> of that in electrical equivalent.
>
Interesting. I was of the opinion that you were practically in the spray
from Niagra Falls, and hence, massive hydorelectric facilities.
Next thing, you'll be telling me you have no igloos and sled dogs. ;-)
Patriarch
> Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
> appropriate connector.
You shouldn't say that! A bunch of morons will tell you that the breaker is
there to protect the supply wiring and not the item plugged into it; and
since the breaker is appropriate to the supply wiring, there is no reason to
change the breaker.
Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they
can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it
is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.
Incidently, the third conductor on the cables to my dryer and stove is an
"uninsulated neutral". Looks like a ground to me; but I guess it works the
same regardless of what you call it.
In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:05:07 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Juergen Hannappel
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Doug Miller) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>>
>>>> For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
>>>> *only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
>>>> not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.
>
>>>
>>>Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
>>>leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
>>>have a magnetic starter...)
>>
>>What difference does it make? The saw's power cord has only three wires: two
>>hots, and equipment ground.
>
>My code book is kind of old; however, it states:
>
>"NEC Article 210-10: Ungrounded Conductors Tapped from Grounded
>Systems.
>
>Two-wire dc and ac circuits of two or more ungrounded conductors shall
>be permitted to be tapped from the ungrounded conductors of circuits
>having a grounded neutral conductor. Switching devices in each tapped
>circuit shall have a pole in *each* (emphasis added) ungrounded
>conductor."
The switch in the table saw, being cord-and-plug-connected, is not part of the
circuit, and this article therefore does not apply.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:29:41 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>>
>>>Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>>>appropriate connector.
>>
>>It already *has* an "appropriately sized breaker" (presuming the stove
>>installation was Code-compliant). The breaker is there to protect the wiring
>>and the receptacle, not the device that's plugged in.
>
>I know that, Doug.
Then why did you suggest replacing it?
[snip]
>>>And remember, that third wire *is not* an
>>>equipment ground, but the neutral.
>>
>>It's a neutral in a 240V electric range circuit only because electric ranges
>>contain both 120V and 240V equipment, and the 120V control circuits need the
>>neutral. If you connect a pure 240V load such as a 240V motor to this circuit,
>>there is no neutral, and the third wire is the equipment ground.
>
>Uh huh. Then there's the guys who add an outlet to the saw circuit
>for a work light and to run the dust collector.
That would be a problem, *if* it happened. But the problem is with the
installation of that outlet, not with the wiring of the circuit for the table
saw.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
><snip>
>> why, with natural gas run to the house, the dryer and stover were
>> electric (water heater was gas).
>Electric dryers and stoves are cheaper than gas.
Cheaper to buy, yes, but usually more expensive to operate.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>Two questions:
>
>Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the
>connections match your above safety list?
Yep.
>
>Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service
>was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)
Yep.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> It's really very simple, troller: the electrical "advice" you give is
>> incorrect and dangerous. You don't have the first idea what the hell
>> you're
>> talking about. You know just enough about it to sound knowledgeable to
>> someone
>> who knows less about it than you do, but most of what you say is just flat
>> wrong (like the instance we're discussing right now) - and a lot of it is
>> downright dangerous. My motivation is to keep other people from getting
>> injured or killed by following your incorrect and dangerous "advice".
>>
>God, you just don't give up!
Me??? Time after time, I and others have pointed out the oftentimes dangerous
flaws in your electrical advice, and yet you keep going, remaining under the
delusion that you actually know what you're talking about, despite abundant
evidence to the contrary.
No, I'm not going to give up. As long as you keep posting incorrect and
dangerous answers to electrical questions (like the one discussed above), I'm
going to keep pointing out that your answers are incorrect and dangerous.
If you don't like that, the solution is simple: stop posting incorrect and
dangerous electrical advice.
>I can't imagine what you are like in person.
I don't have any more patience for fools in person than I have online. :-)
I don't have it in for you personally, toller. You may have noticed (since you
haven't *really* killfiled me as you claim) that I've given you some helpful
and polite answers to your woodworking questions here, and to a couple of your
plumbing questions in a.h.r.
The *only* area where I have a problem with you is electrical questions: you
DO NOT know enough to be competent to answer them safely. If you were giving
bad advice on, say, painting, I'd laugh at you a time or two, and leave it at
that, because no real harm could possibly result. Electricity is different:
it's dangerous if mishandled, and bad electrical advice can kill people.
Sadly, you appear ignorant of *both* of those concepts.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
On 24 May 2005 09:49:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
>kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
>stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>
>1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
>be run off of it?
>
>Plug looks like:
>\ /
> |
>
>
>2. Is it worth converting the saw to 220?
Whatever you do, if toller posts any sort of recommendation, run,
don't walk away from it.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
In article <[email protected]>,
"woodworker88" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"I'd make a pigtail to plug into the existing outlet..."
>
> I wouldn't. I would just pay an electrician to take the cover off the
> outlet plate, remove the outlet, then extend conduit to install a new
> box and outlet with the correct plug right next to the saw.
That's the right way.
In article <[email protected]>,
Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipperified]
>
> Interesting. I was of the opinion that you were practically in the spray
> from Niagra Falls, and hence, massive hydorelectric facilities.
>
> Next thing, you'll be telling me you have no igloos and sled dogs. ;-)
>
Would you believe no hockey?
Hell yes, lots of igloos and dogs... if you go 1000 miles straight north.
I am practically at the same latitude as San Francisco and Rome, Italy,
give or take. Nobody makes igloo jokes about them, do they?
Or are you one of those guys who sees a weather map and notices it says
70 degrees in Detroit MI and 20 degrees in Windsor, ON (just across the
river) on the same day?????
Ya think you lose 50 degrees as you come across the bridge into Canada?
hehehehe
Niagra rhymes with Viagra, coinkidink? I think not.
The juice coming out of Niagra is barely enough to keep the boom-boxes
going during a week-day party in Toronto's 'hoods.
We have even more free natural gas than hydro power. Hydro power is
managed by a company which employs 10,000 highly overpaid cleaners and
15,000 underqualified and overpaid management types.
The gas company has a pipe to deal with, not a nuclear power station
that started off as a 3 billion dollar project and had a slight overrun
of 11 billion on top of that. (My oldest daughter is an operator there,
btw.)
That kinda shit happens when you give the CEO's job to a political
appointee.
In article <[email protected]>,
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> <snip>
> > why, with natural gas run to the house, the dryer and stover were
> > electric (water heater was gas).
> Electric dryers and stoves are cheaper than gas.
> Jim
That must be why in the 3 years that I converted from an electric range
to natural gas, that I paid for the new gas range range with the savings.
It may be different in some areas, but here? Gas costs about 25% per BTU
of that in electrical equivalent.
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
>>>or
>>>range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
>>>from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
>>>_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
>>>connect it to *ground*.
>
>"Here are the instructions from Jennair:
>
>'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
>the green grounding wire.'"
Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates clearly
that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:
Here are the instructions from Jennair:
"The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
neutral to the service neutral."
>So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?
When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".
Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions: "...connect
the green wire to ground..."
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so ...advised another
>to connect a multiwire branch circuit to the two poles of a duplex
>120V breaker...
Dear god, tell me he didn't. And here I thought (for a picosecond)
that maybe I was being a little insensitive to him.
For those who don't know, the multiwire branch circuit is like a 240V
circuit with a neutral which functions as two 120V circuits with a
common neutral. A duplex 240V breaker is required since the concept of
the common neutral is that the return currents of the two circuits
being fed 180° out of phase (by virtue of the duplex 240V breaker) are
in turn 180° out of phase and thus cancel. They can never sum to more
than the capacity of one leg of the breaker, regardless of any
imbalance of loads on the two branches, consequently the neutral is
safe insofar as its current carrying is concerned.
To attempt to wire that circuit from a duplex 120V breaker means that
both hots are of the same phase, and thus the return currents are
additive, equalling as much as TWICE the breaker current (depending on
the total load), and obviously much greater than the ampacity of the
neutral wire.
And you guys think we're bitchslapping him just for amusement.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On 24 May 2005 09:49:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
>kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
>stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>
>1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
>be run off of it?
Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
appropriate connector. And remember, that third wire *is not* an
equipment ground, but the neutral.
>
>Plug looks like:
>\ /
> |
>
>
>2. Is it worth converting the saw to 220?
Probably.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave
On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:17:40 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, "Pig"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
>>>>and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
>>>>word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
>>>>a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
>>>>is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
>>>>with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
>>>>stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
>>>>solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
>>>>wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
>>>>all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."
>>>
>>>ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but
>>>at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is
>>>actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod
>>>and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he
>>>told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected
>>>to the circuit neutral,
>>
>>Not taking sides in this tar baby punching contest, but you're now
>>worried about connecting "ground" to "neutral"? [g]
>
>Two separate issues.
>
>In the stove-cum-tablesaw circuit thread, we are discussing connecting a pure
>240V device (two hots and a ground, no neutral) to a circuit that has three
>conductors. You claim, utterly without foundation, that to do so is incorrect.
>
>In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove, or
>range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
>from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
>_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
>connect it to *ground*.
>
>>How come when I suggest this is something best avoided, I'm
>>excessively cautious? Maybe so... I wouldn't rely on a Sawstop
>>either.
>
>If you don't see that these are two separate issues - and *why* - you probably
>shouldn't be giving out electrical advice *either*.
Sorry. My tongue-in-cheek eluded you.
*If* the OP is absolutely, positively sure that the line in question
travels unbroken back to the service panel with no other loads
attached, then he can wrap some green tape around the white wire at
both ends and call it equipment ground. If I had personally wired
this circuit and knew this to be the case, that's what I would do.
Otherwise, I would make no such assumption without further detective
work. That was the point I was trying to make in the first place;
until you know for sure, it's a "neutral."
But since neither of us has provided our credentials that denote
expertise in the field, I submit that our advice is equally suspect.
I have had my say and will sign off now and go back to the shop and
see if my shellac flakes have dissolved.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:29:41 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>>appropriate connector.
>
>It already *has* an "appropriately sized breaker" (presuming the stove
>installation was Code-compliant). The breaker is there to protect the wiring
>and the receptacle, not the device that's plugged in.
I know that, Doug.
>
>It may not be possible to install "the appropriate connector", as the wiring
>for a Code-compliant 40A circuit is certainly at least #8, possibly as large
>as #6 - and the "appropriate" 20- or 30-amp receptacle is unlikely to be rated
>for use with wires that large.
That's why they invented wire nuts. While the detachable cord doesn't
need to meet the same wire size requirements as the fixed wiring, I
personally would be concerned with a fault that fails to trip the
breaker until there is damage to the pigtail. But that's just me
operating with 33+ years of experience in the aerospace/tactical
missile business where fail-save considerations and Murhpy's law rule.
[g]
>
>>And remember, that third wire *is not* an
>>equipment ground, but the neutral.
>
>It's a neutral in a 240V electric range circuit only because electric ranges
>contain both 120V and 240V equipment, and the 120V control circuits need the
>neutral. If you connect a pure 240V load such as a 240V motor to this circuit,
>there is no neutral, and the third wire is the equipment ground.
Uh huh. Then there's the guys who add an outlet to the saw circuit
for a work light and to run the dust collector.
Regards,
Wes
On Wed, 25 May 2005 03:12:56 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>> appropriate connector.
>
>You shouldn't say that! A bunch of morons will tell you that the breaker is
>there to protect the supply wiring and not the item plugged into it; and
>since the breaker is appropriate to the supply wiring, there is no reason to
>change the breaker.
Everyone's out of step but you, eh? You just keep living down to your
billing.
>Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they
>can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it
>is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.
Where do you find the 1/10 A breakers to protect your light bulbs?
Where do you get the ¼ A breakers to protect your clock radio? Where
did you find a panel that would accommodate all of those little
breakers (must be a half a hundred or more in an average house)?
I assume from your reasoning above that you would want to protect all
your low current devices plugged into your massive 15A and 20A
circuits, "for the price of a breaker."
>Incidently, the third conductor on the cables to my dryer and stove is an
>"uninsulated neutral". Looks like a ground to me; but I guess it works the
>same regardless of what you call it.
And meets code (by virtue of grandfathering) but wouldn't in a new
installation since the last few years.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:05:07 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Juergen Hannappel <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Doug Miller) writes:
>>
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>
>>> For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
>>> *only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
>>> not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.
>>
>>Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
>>leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
>>have a magnetic starter...)
>
>What difference does it make? The saw's power cord has only three wires: two
>hots, and equipment ground.
My code book is kind of old; however, it states:
"NEC Article 210-10: Ungrounded Conductors Tapped from Grounded
Systems.
Two-wire dc and ac circuits of two or more ungrounded conductors shall
be permitted to be tapped from the ungrounded conductors of circuits
having a grounded neutral conductor. Switching devices in each tapped
circuit shall have a pole in *each* (emphasis added) ungrounded
conductor."
On Tue, 24 May 2005 15:18:31 -0700, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com>
wrote:
>On 24 May 2005 09:49:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
>>kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
>>stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>>
>>1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
>>be run off of it?
>
>Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>appropriate connector. And remember, that third wire *is not* an
>equipment ground, but the neutral.
Uh, how do you figure that? While the stove *may* have used the third
wire as a neutral (under an NEC exception for many years), the circuit
and outlet have no way of knowing what's plugged into it, and the
third wire is connected to the ground bus back at the panel. Even if
it's tied to the "neutral" bus, unless the panel is a sub-panel, the
neutral and ground busses are tied together anyway.
No, with no stove (or dryer) connected, that third wire is definitely
an equipment ground.
Or were you just funnin' us?
>>2. Is it worth converting the saw to 220?
>
>Probably.
Yeah, especially if the 120V line he's plugged into is the least bit
wimpy.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
>>>>>or
>>>>>range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green
>>>>>wire
>>>>>from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
>>>>>_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
>>>>>connect it to *ground*.
>>>
>>>"Here are the instructions from Jennair:
>>>
>>>'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
>>>the green grounding wire.'"
>>
>> Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates
>> clearly
>> that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:
>>
>> Here are the instructions from Jennair:
>>
>> "The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
>> the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
>> installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
>> vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
>> grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
>> disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
>> ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
>> neutral to the service neutral."
>>
>>>So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?
>>
>> When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".
>>
>> Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions:
>> "...connect
>> the green wire to ground..."
>>
>He had a three wire circuit. What ground?
The metal flex conduit that he described in the first sentence of the original
post.
>I was quite correct,
Obviously you were not.
>which I presume you are smart enough to know; but are
>just too big an ass to admit.
I'm certainly smart enough to know the difference between neutral and ground.
And I'll never admit that you were right here, because you *clearly* are
totally wrong. *Read* the thread, for crying out loud: the instructions the
guy quoted say clearly to connect the green wire to ground, and you told him
just as clearly to connect it to the circuit neutral. How can you possibly
think even for a moment that you were right?
>What on earth motivates you to act like this?
It's really very simple, troller: the electrical "advice" you give is
incorrect and dangerous. You don't have the first idea what the hell you're
talking about. You know just enough about it to sound knowledgeable to someone
who knows less about it than you do, but most of what you say is just flat
wrong (like the instance we're discussing right now) - and a lot of it is
downright dangerous. My motivation is to keep other people from getting
injured or killed by following your incorrect and dangerous "advice".
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:14:36 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 May 2005 15:18:31 -0700, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 24 May 2005 09:49:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>I have a Dewalt 746 table saw that can be converted to 220. In the
>>>kitchen above my workshop there is an outlet that was for the electric
>>>stove that used to be there (now gas). Two questions:
>>>
>>>1. If the outlet is 40 amps, can a table saw that uses much less amps
>>>be run off of it?
>>
>>Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
>>appropriate connector. And remember, that third wire *is not* an
>>equipment ground, but the neutral.
>
>Uh, how do you figure that? While the stove *may* have used the third
>wire as a neutral (under an NEC exception for many years), the circuit
>and outlet have no way of knowing what's plugged into it, and the
>third wire is connected to the ground bus back at the panel. Even if
>it's tied to the "neutral" bus, unless the panel is a sub-panel, the
>neutral and ground busses are tied together anyway.
I know that the neutral and grounding conductor are tied together at
the service entrance. That *does not* mean that a grounding conductor
and neutral are at the same potential anywhere else.
This was true even in a clothes dryer or electric range, where lights,
motors, timers, etc ran from one phase to neutral. Admittedly these
load currents are small, however, in the strictest sense, there is a
voltage drop in the neutral between the load and the service panel.
Therefore, a non-current carrying grounding conductor and the neutral
have different potentials at the load end.
>
>No, with no stove (or dryer) connected, that third wire is definitely
>an equipment ground.
Unless there is some other load on the same circuit, something that
you do not know.
By your reasoning, we can just eliminate grounding conductors; after
all, the neutral is grounded at the service entrance. Tie it to the
frame of your table saw and sit back and hope that nothing goes wrong.
If the National Fire Protection Association thought that what you say
is true, I doubt that they would have made the NEC change that now
requires four wires, two phases, neutral and grounding conductor.
>
>Or were you just funnin' us?
Not at all.
>
>>>2. Is it worth converting the saw to 220?
>>
>>Probably.
>
>Yeah, especially if the 120V line he's plugged into is the least bit
>wimpy.
[email protected] (Doug Miller) writes:
[...]
>
> For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
> *only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
> not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.
Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
have a magnetic starter...)
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Jim"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ><[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> ><snip>
> >> why, with natural gas run to the house, the dryer and stover were
> >> electric (water heater was gas).
> >Electric dryers and stoves are cheaper than gas.
>
> Cheaper to buy, yes, but usually more expensive to operate.
The people who build the houses are more interested in the cost to buy
rather than the cost to operate. As an aside, I have never owned an
electric dryer because they cost more to operate.
Jim
In article <[email protected]>, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 25 May 2005 12:20:26 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
>>the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.
>>
>>I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
>> One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
>>definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
>>in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
>>the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
>>addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
>>the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
>>right). Anyway the 40A breaker supplies the outlet approximately 8 ft
>>away from the panel. There is nothing else connected to this circuit.
>>I don't know the gauge of the wire, but it if a fat sucker. Since I
>>installed the gas line 20 years ago, the prior owner could have only
>>used electric. So the circuit was installed in the early 60's.
>
>Okay. If this retrofit was done correctly, the neutral and ground bus
>bars in the "old" (now sub) panel were separated. Your (saw circuit)
>neutral wire connects to the now separate neutral bus bar and that bus
>in turn is wired to the common neutral-ground bus in the new service
>panel. This point is the earth ground reference.
>
>*All* of the neutral currents from the "old" panel are now conducted
>by the one neutral wire back to the new panel where the wire connects
>to earth. So your circuit *is not* the only thing on this neutral
>conductor. Much of the rest of your house is a common load.
Interesting, but irrelevant - for safety, and Code compliance, this conductor
*must* (as I have noted in an earlier post) be moved to the *grounding* bus in
the subpanel. Once that is done, none of the considerations you give here
apply.
>
>Now I don't know how far apart these panels are. They might be bolted
>together for all I know, in which case there is essentially no issue.
>However, if they are separated some distance then there will be some
>I^2 * R voltage drop in the neutral wire connecting the panels. If
>the loads on the two phases are split reasonably well, then the
>neutral current should be small. However, a major fault on some
>circuit can drive the current very high until a breaker opens. This
>will yank the neutral to some potential further above ground. If you
>are clamped onto your saw at the time with your feet on damp concrete,
>who knows what will happen.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?