220 V table saws and ground

"Robert Bonomi" wrote:

> I have. <grin> The '11th power' figure comes from a college
> dorm-mate.
> He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And
> his
> masters thesis was on the subject.

Ever spend any time at Nela Park?

Lew

Robert Bonomi" wrote:

>
> Me? no. (I was studying entirely different things -- and succeeding
> at
> that (got one assignment back from the Prof. with "and now for
> something
> completely different:" scrawled across the top f it.)

Just curious.

Some of your posts suggest you have/had the Monogram tattooed on both
cheeks.

Lew

"krw" wrote:

> I may do that for my great room can lights and ceiling fans. The
> fans
> only take a 10' ladder to get to, but the can lights are going to be
> a
> real PITA. I don't use them because I really don't want to get up
> there until I have to paint the ceiling.
-------------------------------------------
A natural for CFLs where longer life provides a benefit.

Lew

"dpb" wrote:

> I've seen "normal" anywhere from 107V - 130V as pretty common just
> depending on where on a line and how far from distribution
> transformer a run is. Perhaps not as much variation common in
> residential/metro areas that don't cover such long distances w/
> individual or very few loads as see out here...

Years ago, NEMA standardized on voltage ratings as follows:

Distribution devices such as transformers and circuit breakers:

120VAC and multiples there of.

Utilization devices such as motors and heating equipment:

115VAC and multiples there of.

The 5VAC differential accomodates line losses and calculation of
loads.

Lew

<[email protected]> wrote:

-------------------------------------------------
I'm a bit confused. All of you are correctly worried about the
ground etc... Doesn't it bother anybody that the electrician ran a
#10 wire to the shop for a 30 amp circuit? I thought #10 was for 20
amps and #8 was the minimum for 30 amps. Am I wrong about that??
--------------------------------------

It's a function of ambient temperature.

For normal ambient temperatures, 10AWG is rated 30 for amp service;
however, a 30 amp circuit in a panel board will only handle 24 amps on
a continuous basis. (80% rule).

Lew

"dpb" wrote:

> That's theory; I'm talking observed...again, may be better in less
> rural areas.

Theory hell, that's just the way it has been for over 30 years.

Measured values at any point in the system are not relavent to a
rating standard.

Lew


Lew

"Robert Bonomi" wrote:


> A *BIT* ??? <Snicker>
>
> In many places, the regulation is *terrible*.

The utility is only required to provide 120V, + 10%, - 15%.

IOW, 132V Max, 102V Min.

Multiples of 120 apply (208, 240, 277 & 480).

Which is why the utilities get away with supplying "brown out" power
levels during periods of peak demand.

Over voltage problems are a little more difficult to catch since
shortened life requires some period of time to document.

Lew

"dpb" wrote:

> I only buy 130V bulbs for that reason...and in fact, the door
> handout "goodie bag" at annual meeting always has at least one bulb
> in it and _they're_ 130V-rated, too.... :)


That is actually false economy.

Yes, you get longer lamp life which is good; hovever, you also get
reduced lumen/watt output which is bad.

You are buying lumens, not hours of lamp life, so it becomes a trade
off of economy vs convenience.

Lew

<[email protected]> wrote:

> In the US it's +/- 5%, ie. 114V to 126V.

Maybe that's in your utility area, but not the last two utilities
areas I've had.

Lew

"dpb" wrote:

> No, I'm buying bulbs...or actually, not buying nearly as many bulbs
> as would otherwise.

Actually you are buying both lamps and KWH to operate them.

If you wish to buy more KWH than are needed for the sake of
convenience, that's your choice.

Lew

"Stuart" wrote:
---------------------------------------------------
> If a 100W bulb is run on less than its nominal voltage it will
> consume a
> little less power and run less efficiently that's all. The light
> will be
> yellower but its life will be extended.
> If that is the choice you wish to make then that's entirely your
> affair
> and no one else's.
--------------------------------------------

Actually the load, in this case 100 watts, remains the same, but the
lumen out decreases with increase in voltage rating of the lamp.

I used to make a very good living designing and selling industrial
lighting systems.

As power costs increase the effiency of lamps becomes more and more
important.

It was a straight forward process, based on total cost of ownership,
to justify $30.00 lamps with 20,000 hour lamp life when power costs
were less than $0.03/KWH.

With today's power costs, it's a slam dunk.

Lew

"FrozenNorth" wrote:

> Correct the bulbs resistance is fixed, increased voltage causes more
> amperage, reduced voltage reduces the amperage. Light output and
> bulb life will vary according to their ratings.
==============================================
NOT!!!

As the voltage rating of a specific wattage lamp rating increases, so
does the
resistance of the filament.

This increased filament resistance provides a mechanically heavier
wire which
then allows for a "rough service" or "traffic signal" lamp rating.

The increased filament resistance also reduces the current flowing
thru the filament
which in turn reduces the lumen output.

Basic data available in any lamp catalog.

Just some of the basic engineering trade offs the lamp designer faces.



Lew

"J. Clarke" wrote:

> If he's using 130v bulbs on 120v then he's using about 15% less KWH
> than he
> would be using 120v of the same nominal wattage.
-------------------------------------
NOT!

100 watts is 100 watts regardless the voltage rating of the lamp.

The current flowing thru the lamp is reduced which reduces lumen
output when the voltage rating of the lamp is increased.

(E = I*R for a resistance load.)

Lew

"dpb" wrote:

> Interesting that Lew would point this out in a followup post that a
> higher-cost bulb pays for itself even at lower power cost but can't
> help but try to make a putdown to the logic of using a 130V to
> obtain the same benefit.

At a typical 18-20 lumens/watt and 1,000 hour life, incandescent lamps
are never even a consideration for a low cost of ownership lighting
system.

Longer life incandescent lamps are purely for convenience except
traffic signal lamps where the cost of servicing a signal enters the
ownership cost equation.

Lew

"J. Clarke" wrote:

> And yet you don't know how to rerate an incandescent bulb. Just
> goes to
> show that he who has the best line of bullshit wins.

After you have had a chance to review a lamp catalog, get back to me.

Lew

"J. Clarke" wrote:
> If you have visions of becoming an electrical engineer, don't quit
> your day
> job.
>
> For a resistive load P=E^2/R. If the lamp is rated for 100 watts at
> 130
> volts then it will dissipate (120^2/130^2)*100 watts at 120v or
> about 85
> watts if its resistance remains constant.
---------------------------------------------
Review lamp data found in any lamp catalog.

The proof is left to the student.

Lew

"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nonny wrote:
>>
>> "Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
>> resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
>> general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
>> understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but
>> of equal relevance here. <Grin>
>>
>> Electricity explained
>> I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
>> different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
>> Secondly,
>> it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
>> coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
>> 110
>> comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes
>> from
>> below the equator.
>> Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
>> flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
>> clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
>> Since
>> most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
>> up
>> and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
>> and
>> up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either
>> individual
>> side only gives you 110 volts.
>> This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which
>> side
>> of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
>> instance, it
>> will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
>> you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
>> Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
>> electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
>> person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the
>> slices
>> of bread she put in it.
>> If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
>> volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
>> from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
>> then
>> turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
>> down
>> sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
>> sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just
>> using Canadian tools with it.

Robert,
You know that's a bunch of bull. If you have an Australian saw and it runs
backwards all you have to do is to mount the blade backwards.
Sheesh.

Max

"Larry Jaques" wrote:

> Why don't ALL OF YOU stop wasting electricity and get rid of the
> ghastly yellow lighting at the same time? CFLs are the way to go.
-------------------------------------------------------

If the lamp is to be "On" for at least 10 minutes, CFL makes sense.

Less than 10 minutes it's a poor choice.

Lew

"Larry Jaques" wrote:

> Good news: when the temp hit 29 this afternoon, my water started
> running again! I'll leave the pumphouse light on during this cold
> snap, and run water when I get up in the middle of the night to run
> it
> in the other direction.
===============================
Shades of my youth.

A 100W light bulb hanging in the pump house is your friend in winter.

Also works when hanging beside the engine block.

Had a shallow well pump in a pit covered with a lift off, tar paper
covered wooden roof.

First year the pump froze when it got cold.

After that, it was a light bulb in the pit and straw bales over the
roof.

Problem solved.

Today, heat tapes are safer and more efficient.

Lew

"Chris Friesen" wrote:

> I don't think this is correct.

You are correct.

> Power = V^2/R

Yep.

Lew

"Stuart" wrote:

> I'm rather glad we go in for underground cabling with large
> transformers
> serving a local area, at ground level, in secure cabinets, usually
> fenced,
> in the UK.

For the last 30+ years, residential developments have been built with
pad mount transformers and underground distribution; however, for most
of the 20th century, above ground distribution was the norm, thus
there is a lot of above ground still in existence.

Lew

"charlie" wrote:

> this is highly location dependent. maybe in your area it is, but not
> around my locale.
>
> blanket statements usually aren't.
-----------------------------------------------
Without question, the local often utility requires some nudging,
usually in the form of legislation, to provide underground service in
residential areas.

Utilities are not know for being on the cutting edge, at least the
ones I've had contact with aren't.

YMMV.

Lew

"IanM" wrote:

> Please explain *CLEARLY* how increasing the thickness of any uniform
> substance can *increase* the resistance if everything else remains
> unchanged.
----------------------------------------------
When it comes to an incandescent lamp filament, there is more than
just the geometry (length and cross section)of the wire at work to
determine the filament resistance.

Coatings on the wire, shape of the winding, the metal alloy are just a
few of things that come into play to arrive at the final design.

For a given wattage of lamp, the total lamp resistance of the lamp
increases in direct proportion to the rated voltage.

Lew

"Larry Jaques" wrote
>
> I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my house, a
> little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's attached to.
> I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
> on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines on the
> street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here within
> the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.
> --
I used to live across from an elementary school. As neighbors of the school,
we would keep an eye on the school and report any suspicious activity. We
called in a couple of things and some bad guys got caught.

Early one morning there was a big explosion. It rattled the windows for the
whole block. I had a friend who was staying over the night and was sleeping
on the couch in front of the window that faced the school. It knocked him
off the couch. We were surprised that the windows did not break.

After a number of frantic 911 calls, the cops raced to the scene and looked
everything over. They quickly found a charred, black feather under a power
pole. They looked up and saw a transformer with the side blown out of it. A
crow had got into the transformer and shorted it out. Needless to say, a
couple feathers was all that was left of the crow. Apparently this was a
common enough of a problem tht the police first check the power poles after
the report of an explosion.

They had to shut the power down for the whole neighborhood for about six
hours. And the utility company decided to start installing "crow resistant"
transformers". But only after this happened many times. Who was the bird
brain that didn't make the transformers "crow resistant" in the first place?

On Dec 8, 1:07=A0pm, whit3rd <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 10:22=A0am, sibosop <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I can just replace the two wire cord with a three wire
> > and hook the ground to some appropriate piece
> > of iron on the saw top.
>
> That's not quite complete; you MUST connect the ground wire to the
> box with the on/off switch, and the frame of the motor, and you
> can then (if you want) bond the motor or switch to the tablesaw
> top and/or frame.

Ok. Thank you.
Switch, Motor
Switch. Motor.
Switch. Motor
b

"Stuart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Well, for a start there's the one in the bog/toilet/loo/little
> boys room
> or whatever term you use for the room where you take a piss :-)

Back yard, neighbor's tree, neighbor's gas tank, hotel sink?

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

On Dec 10, 9:36=A0pm, "Martin H. Eastburn" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> We bought a new house once and the contractor put in 130v bulbs.
> Not he 115v ones we buy in the store - and run them on 120 or 125v.
>
> Anyway - when we sold the house 11 years later we still had some of
> the original bulbs.
>
> Consider : =A0P=3DE*I =A0 If E drops - the power drops. =A0The bulb runs =
cooler.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0P=3DE^2/R =A0or R =3D E^2/P =A0 130*130/100 =
=A0=3D 13*13 =3D 269 ohms hot.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(rule of thumb 1/10 of hot =3D cold resistance=
or 27 ohms for surges).
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I=3DP/E =3D 100/130 =3D .76 amps
> =A0 =A0 Now - using the 130 bulb with 269 ohm filament and we run it at 1=
20 :

> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 P (used) =3D 120*120/269 =A0 =A0or 14400/269 =
=3D 53.53 watts.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 P=3DE*I =A0 so I=3DP/E =A0I =3D 53/120 =3D .4=
4 amps

You assume that the temparature, thus the resistance, of the filament
is the same at 130V as it is at 120V. This is certainly *not* true.
At 120V, the lower filament temperature not only will the bulb use
less power (though less than expected using your calculations) will
make the bulb less efficient (lumens per watt), costing you money too.

> lower used wattage, longer life due to the derrating.

Much longer, yes. Bulb life is a function of something like the 16th
power of service voltage. It's still not saving money, unless there
is a cost associated with replacement in addition to the bulb cost.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:33:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0500, the infamous "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>>
>>"Nonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
>>> resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
>>> general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
>>> understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but of
>>> equal relevance here. <Grin>
>>>
>>> Electricity explained
>>> I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
>>> different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
>>> Secondly,
>>> it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
>>> coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
>>> 110
>>> comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
>>> below the equator.
>>> Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
>>> flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
>>> clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
>>> Since
>>> most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
>>> up
>>> and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
>>> and
>>> up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
>>> side only gives you 110 volts.
>>> This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
>>> of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
>>> instance, it
>>> will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
>>> you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
>>> Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
>>> electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
>>> person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
>>> of bread she put in it.
>>> If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
>>> volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
>>> from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
>>> then
>>> turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
>>> down
>>> sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
>>> sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just
>>
>>
>>Finally! An authoritative explanation of all those things that have been so
>>confusing for so long!
>
>Well, all I want to know is how do they get the electricity past that
>extreme barrier called the Equator? Normally, things from either
>hemisphere don't mix. Is this magic or science which allows 'lectrons
>from Oz to come up here?

Maybe they use transformers at the equator. Which way do electrons
spin down there?

Nonny wrote:

> Electricity explained
> I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
> different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big. Secondly,
> it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
> coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down 110
> comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
> below the equator.
> Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
> flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
> clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
> Since
> most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you
> an up
> and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down and
> up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
> side only gives you 110 volts.
> This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
> of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
> instance, it
> will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
> you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
> Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
> electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
> person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
> of bread she put in it.
> If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
> volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
> from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
> then
> turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
> down
> sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
> sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just
> using Canadian tools with it.

ROTFL! ... should be in the Anti-FAQ.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> ...
>
>> You are buying lumens, not hours of lamp life, so it becomes a trade off
>> of economy vs convenience.
>
> No, I'm buying bulbs...or actually, not buying nearly as many bulbs as
> would otherwise.
>
> They output what they output (which if blown is nothing, nil, nada, until
> replaced). _That's_ the tradeoff.
>
> --
>
>

Yeahbut, you're not factoring in all of those extra lumens they provide at
the instant they burn out...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:27:44 -0600, the infamous "Leon"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> EXT wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> That is right. You only need a neutral when you need dual voltage as in a
>>> dryer or stove. 240V (no longer 220 volt) only equipment such as motors
>>> only need the two hot wires and a ground. ...
>>
>> I just kept w/ Leon's values -- there's really ime no telling what any
>> given locale will be running as actual voltages...
>
>Snip
>
>
>
>Hey It is hard to tell what the voltage is any more. LOL. 2 weeks ago
>"after" having 3 new leads run underground to my home, I lost electricity in
>1/2 of my house and had no 240? ;!) I started having issues with lights
>diming.
>
>I used a volt meter to check the voltage on the side of the house that I had
>previousely been dead and got 105 volts on about half the recepticals. The
>other half showed 138 volts.
>
>The common neutral that was dedicated to my house and 3 neighbors had rusted
>and was causing the dimming problem for all of us. The light company came
>out and replaced the "thang" that attached the neutrals to the 4 houses.
>
>Every thing went back to 122 volts after the repair.

The scary part of that is that it means your 4 homes don't have any
kind of local grounding rods. It's all at the pole!

If I were you, I'd instantly run one.

Good news: when the temp hit 29 this afternoon, my water started
running again! I'll leave the pumphouse light on during this cold
snap, and run water when I get up in the middle of the night to run it
in the other direction.

--
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


I'm a bit confused. All of you are correctly worried about the
ground etc... Doesn't it bother anybody that the electrician ran a
#10 wire to the shop for a 30 amp circuit? I thought #10 was for 20
amps and #8 was the minimum for 30 amps. Am I wrong about that??

Len

**********************************************************************************

Not a bit worried. #10 is rated for 30A.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>>> If you have visions of becoming an electrical engineer, don't quit
>>> your day job.
>>>
>>> For a resistive load P=E^2/R. If the lamp is rated for 100 watts at
>>> 130 volts then it will dissipate (120^2/130^2)*100 watts at 120v or
>>> about 85 watts if its resistance remains constant.
>> ---------------------------------------------
>> Review lamp data found in any lamp catalog.
>>
>> The proof is left to the student.
>
>Proof? This is high school physics.

"Yeahbut" applies. <grin>

A light bulb is _not_ a 'constant resistance' device. It takes _more_ than
a _simple_ high-school physics application of Ohm's Law to get an accurate
answer.

Proof: measure the 'cold' resistance of a, say, (nominal) 100 watt (@120v)
lightbulb. It only a =few= -- as in _less_than_ten_ -- ohms. Which is why
a light bulb draws _lots_ of power (for a very short time) when it is turned
on. {Google for 'light bulb inrush current' for the gory details, if you're
interested.} Incidentally, this also explains while the vast majority of
bulbs burn out _when_ you turn them on.

Incandescent Lightbulbs run *HOT* -- 'white hot' (grin), in fact. This
-greatly- increases the filament resistance over what it is at 'room
temperature'.

Reducing the voltage of a nominal 130v bulb to 120v will result in a
_decrease_ (albeit relatively minor) in the resistance of the bulb.
As a result of that change, the current flow at 120V will be _more_
than 12/13 the current flow at 130v.

Thus, a '100 watt @ 130v' bulb has a nominal operating current draw of 0.7692A
at 130v. a 'hot' resistance of roughly 169 ohms.

_if_ one makes the mistake of assuming constant resistance, then at 120v the
consumption would be about .7100A (120/130 * .7692A, or about 85.2watt @ 120v).

BUT, this calculation is in *error*. Because the resistance of the bulb will
_decrease_ -- due to the fact that it is not running as 'hot' at 120V as it
does at 130V.

The exact figures depend on _exactly_ how the bulb is constructed, but for
'typical' 130V bulbs, the power consumption will be around 88-90 watts, at
120V. (Roughly 92.3 watts is the 'absolute maximum')

dpb wrote:

> The motor only "needs" the two hots if you're going to get into "needs"

Hell, you really don't _need_ no stinking plug! :)

... ask any South o' the Border carpenter on a job site, who will
routinely strip 1" off two leads of an extension cord and stick'em
straight into the female receptacle on the t-pole (or the dryer plug in
the utility room which is usually the first thing powered in new
construction), to power 220/240 equipment.

Floor finishers are really bad about it because most of those big floor
sanders require 220/240, and they never seem to carry adapters.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Dec 9, 11:26=A0am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2:28=A0am, sibosop <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I realize this isn't exactly a woodworking question, but when I asked
> > about 220 V wiring for my shed in an earlier thread a lot of
> > electricians came out of the 'woodwork'.
>
> > So. I now have 220 V in my shed for my Walker Turner table saw. I
> > noticed that the plug from the saw only has two wires. The ground is
> > not connected. =A0My shed has a ground stake.
> > Should I run the ground wire to the saw? It certainly has a whooping
> > iron chasis.
> > Should I not do this?
>
> > (For those of you who helped me the last time, I finally decided to
> > get an electrician to wire it. He took the 220V
> > line from my 30 amp circuit for the house drier (I have a gas drier,
> > so I don't use it), ran #10 wires out to a 30 amp
> > breaker panel in the shed, split out two 110V circuits and a 20 amp
> > 220v and put in a ground stake. This took him
> > 6 hours. It would have taken me about 2 months).
>
> > thanks,
> > b
>
> My 220 consists of three leades, two "hot" and one "neutral" but the
> newest setups (for household appliances 0 like a dryer) include a
> separate equipment ground and use a four-conductor plug.

If you only have three leads, one is a ground not a neutral. Often,
like older driers and range installations the ground is used as a
neutral, but as you note, this is no longer allowed. Circuits like
air conditioners (and saws) that don't need a neutral can still use
three wire circuits but the third wire is a ground, not a neutral (it
carries no current). Equipment grounds have been required for at
least fifty years.

> As I understand it, a short in your saw could conceivably employ you
> as the ground (wet shoes, damp floor and a short to the frame).

Which is why the equipment ground is a requirement. There would be no
neutral current so a neutral conductor is not required.

> I may be wrong, but I wire my 220VAC equipment with all four
> conductors and do have a ground stake for the shop power distribution
> box (about a 100 feet from the mains I ran it from at the house).

The *only* place neutral and ground may be (and must be) connected is
at the entrance panel. Neutral and ground must be separated
everywhere else. If your sub panel is separate from your entrance
panel it shouldn't have a separate ground stake, though perhaps it's
OK if a *large* enough ground wire connects the two. I'm not sure
about this detail because it's easier to not have the ground stake at
the sub. If there is a nearby lightning strike you want the house to
"ride the wave" (one ground point) not invite the current through your
house (two grounds).

dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> ...
>
> > I AM NO ELECTRICIAN
> >
> > But I wired my 220 TS 10 years ago. Mine has 3 wires. 2 leads and a
> > neutral, not a ground.
>
> No, there is no neutral for a 220 (US, not Brit); the third conductgor
> is a ground. You're confusing the use of the ground as neutral for
> the 110V circuit of a 3-wire dual voltage hookup (electric range
> range/dryer for example) as making it a neutral--it isn't.
>
> > Are you sure yours is not wired for 110? From what I understand
> > more modern wiring set ups are 4 wire. 2 leads, a neutral and a
> > ground.
>
> Again, that's only for dual-use--the TS doesn't have the 110V load so
> no need. Recent NEC requires the neutral rather than shared but again
> there's no neutral for 220V only.
>
> > Might want to consult a qualified electrician on the matter.
>
> OP did have the circuit run by an electrician he says -- as somebody
> else noted, all he needs is a 3-wire cordset to update the old 2-wire
> one in the most convenient manner to add the ground.

That is right. You only need a neutral when you need dual voltage as in a
dryer or stove. 240V (no longer 220 volt) only equipment such as motors only
need the two hot wires and a ground. Use the specific plug and receptical
for 240 volt and the rated amperage, better still, use a twist lock plug and
receptical (again the correct type for the voltage and amperage) if the wire
trails across the floor so that it doesn't get pulled out.

On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:28:28 -0800, sibosop wrote:

> I realize this isn't exactly a woodworking question, but when I asked
> about 220 V wiring for my shed in an earlier thread a lot of
> electricians came out of the 'woodwork'.
>
> So. I now have 220 V in my shed for my Walker Turner table saw. I
> noticed that the plug from the saw only has two wires. The ground is not
> connected. My shed has a ground stake. Should I run the ground wire to
> the saw? It certainly has a whooping iron chasis.
> Should I not do this?
>
> (For those of you who helped me the last time, I finally decided to get
> an electrician to wire it. He took the 220V line from my 30 amp circuit
> for the house drier (I have a gas drier, so I don't use it), ran #10
> wires out to a 30 amp breaker panel in the shed, split out two 110V
> circuits and a 20 amp 220v and put in a ground stake. This took him 6
> hours. It would have taken me about 2 months).
>
>
> thanks,
> b

A ground is never a bad idea. I would add one. I am not familiar with
that TS, so not sure how you would add it. Sure someone here can give you
some help with adding the ground.

Paul T.



--
The only dumb question, is the one not asked

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Larry Jaques" wrote
>>
>> I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my
>> house, a
>> little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's
>> attached to.
>> I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
>> on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines
>> on the
>> street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here
>> within
>> the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.
>> --
> I used to live across from an elementary school. As neighbors of
> the school, we would keep an eye on the school and report any
> suspicious activity. We called in a couple of things and some
> bad guys got caught.
>
> Early one morning there was a big explosion. It rattled the
> windows for the whole block. I had a friend who was staying over
> the night and was sleeping on the couch in front of the window
> that faced the school. It knocked him off the couch. We were
> surprised that the windows did not break.
>
> After a number of frantic 911 calls, the cops raced to the scene
> and looked everything over. They quickly found a charred, black
> feather under a power pole. They looked up and saw a transformer
> with the side blown out of it. A crow had got into the
> transformer and shorted it out. Needless to say, a couple
> feathers was all that was left of the crow. Apparently this was
> a common enough of a problem tht the police first check the
> power poles after the report of an explosion.
>
> They had to shut the power down for the whole neighborhood for
> about six hours. And the utility company decided to start
> installing "crow resistant" transformers". But only after this
> happened many times. Who was the bird brain that didn't make the
> transformers "crow resistant" in the first place?

One day, during my college years, I was walking back to the
married student housing building from class. It was along a
fairly busy street in KC. As I walked under a power pole, with
transformer on it, there was a very gentle "fwwuummppp," sound,
followed by a cascade of boiling oil falling onto the sidewalk.
I'd just passed the pole and was not even splattered, though there
were oil spots on the concrete within a couple feet of where I was
standing.

I guess it just wasn't my time, and somehow God wanted me back at
work rodding out clogged toilets with my electrical fish tape.

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

On Dec 8, 2:28=A0am, sibosop <[email protected]> wrote:
> I realize this isn't exactly a woodworking question, but when I asked
> about 220 V wiring for my shed in an earlier thread a lot of
> electricians came out of the 'woodwork'.
>
> So. I now have 220 V in my shed for my Walker Turner table saw. I
> noticed that the plug from the saw only has two wires. The ground is
> not connected. =A0My shed has a ground stake.
> Should I run the ground wire to the saw? It certainly has a whooping
> iron chasis.
> Should I not do this?
>
> (For those of you who helped me the last time, I finally decided to
> get an electrician to wire it. He took the 220V
> line from my 30 amp circuit for the house drier (I have a gas drier,
> so I don't use it), ran #10 wires out to a 30 amp
> breaker panel in the shed, split out two 110V circuits and a 20 amp
> 220v and put in a ground stake. This took him
> 6 hours. It would have taken me about 2 months).
>
> thanks,
> b

My 220 consists of three leades, two "hot" and one "neutral" but the
newest setups (for household appliances 0 like a dryer) include a
separate equipment ground and use a four-conductor plug.

As I understand it, a short in your saw could conceivably employ you
as the ground (wet shoes, damp floor and a short to the frame).

I may be wrong, but I wire my 220VAC equipment with all four
conductors and do have a ground stake for the shop power distribution
box (about a 100 feet from the mains I ran it from at the house).

In article <[email protected]>,
dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> > "dpb" wrote:
> >
> >> No, I'm buying bulbs...or actually, not buying nearly as many bulbs
> >> as would otherwise.
> >
> > Actually you are buying both lamps and KWH to operate them.
> >
> > If you wish to buy more KWH than are needed for the sake of
> > convenience, that's your choice.

> No, 75 or 100W is still 75 or 100W...

If a 100W bulb is run on less than its nominal voltage it will consume a
little less power and run less efficiently that's all. The light will be
yellower but its life will be extended.
If that is the choice you wish to make then that's entirely your affair
and no one else's.

In article <[email protected]>,
FrozenNorth <[email protected]> wrote:
> Correct the bulbs resistance is fixed,

Actually it isn't, it's temperature dependant. The resistance goes up with
increasing temperature so that as the voltage increases the dissipated
power doesn't increase in a linear way.

In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
> Erm, how many lights to you flick on and off, Lew?

Well, for a start there's the one in the bog/toilet/loo/little boys room
or whatever term you use for the room where you take a piss :-)

Recent reports published in europe show that CFLs loose as much as 40% of
their output during their claimed life

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1229062/Energy-saving-lightbulbs-dimmer-time.html

In article <[email protected]>,
Nonny <[email protected]> wrote:

> One day, during my college years, I was walking back to the
> married student housing building from class. It was along a
> fairly busy street in KC. As I walked under a power pole, with
> transformer on it, there was a very gentle "fwwuummppp," sound,
> followed by a cascade of boiling oil falling onto the sidewalk.
> I'd just passed the pole and was not even splattered, though there
> were oil spots on the concrete within a couple feet of where I was
> standing.

I'm rather glad we go in for underground cabling with large transformers
serving a local area, at ground level, in secure cabinets, usually fenced,
in the UK.

On Dec 8, 1:28=A0am, sibosop <[email protected]> wrote:
> I realize this isn't exactly a woodworking question, but when I asked
> about 220 V wiring for my shed in an earlier thread a lot of
> electricians came out of the 'woodwork'.
>
> So. I now have 220 V in my shed for my Walker Turner table saw. I
> noticed that the plug from the saw only has two wires. The ground is
> not connected. =A0My shed has a ground stake.
> Should I run the ground wire to the saw? It certainly has a whooping
> iron chasis.
> Should I not do this?
>
> (For those of you who helped me the last time, I finally decided to
> get an electrician to wire it. He took the 220V
> line from my 30 amp circuit for the house drier (I have a gas drier,
> so I don't use it), ran #10 wires out to a 30 amp
> breaker panel in the shed, split out two 110V circuits and a 20 amp
> 220v and put in a ground stake. This took him
> 6 hours. It would have taken me about 2 months).
>
> thanks,
> b

Brian - Truthfully now.

Did you ever imagine your straight-forward inquiry would return 151
(errrrr...152) responses :^} ??

On Dec 8, 10:22=A0am, sibosop <[email protected]> wrote:

> I can just replace the two wire cord with a three wire
> and hook the ground to some appropriate piece
> of iron on the saw top.

That's not quite complete; you MUST connect the ground wire to the
box with the on/off switch, and the frame of the motor, and you
can then (if you want) bond the motor or switch to the tablesaw
top and/or frame.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:55:34 -0600, the infamous dpb <[email protected]>
scrawled the following:

>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "dpb" wrote:
>>
>>> No, I'm buying bulbs...or actually, not buying nearly as many bulbs
>>> as would otherwise.
>>
>> Actually you are buying both lamps and KWH to operate them.
>>
>> If you wish to buy more KWH than are needed for the sake of
>> convenience, that's your choice.
>
>No, 75 or 100W is still 75 or 100W...

Newp. I get 100W worth of light out of $2 (delivered) 23W CFLs.
No replacements necessary for 2 years now, but all my Feit CFLs have
failed in under a year, including the 4 they replaced at their cost.

--
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:12:03 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:40:43 -0600, the infamous
>[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Dec 11, 12:01 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a big assumption. The fact is that we use light to see.
>>>>> Well, I can assert that in my case (the only one that actually matters
>>>>> to me :) ) it's not an assumption at all. I see fine using the same
>>>>> wattage-rated bulb in 130V version as the 120V and as long as that is so
>>>>> it's a win if they last longer...
>>>>
>>>> Then why don't you use a 60W in stead of a 100W, for example?
>>>
>>>Because the difference in a 60W @120V wouldn't be enough for a location
>>>that has a 100W in it, either. The substitution is as earlier
>>>stated--simply 130V of whatever I'd use 120V in that location and I'm
>>>good to go.
>>
>>A 100 W 130V bulb operated at 120V has just about the same output as a 75W 120V
>>bulb. It's a wash on electricity cost, balanced against the cost difference
>>for the 130V bulbs, vs 120V ones. Plus the "convenience factor" of less
>>frequent bulb replacement. Drawback: the 130V bulbs give off a "yellower"
>>light than the 120V ones -- one may, or may not, notice it.
>>
>>A 60W 120V bulb has somewhat more output than a 75W 130V bulb at 120V.
>>The 120v bulb is the _clear_ winner in this case. bulb is less expensive,
>>gives off more light, and uses less electricity. The -only- advantage to
>>the 130V bulb is less-frequent replacement.
>>
>>At lower wattages (60W@130/40W@120 and 40W@130/25W@120), the cost advantage
>>also goes to the rated 120V bulb. Again, the -only- advantage to the 130V
>>bulb is less-frequent replacement.
>
>Why don't ALL OF YOU stop wasting electricity and get rid of the
>ghastly yellow lighting at the same time? CFLs are the way to go.

Speaking of ghastly, CFLs define the term. Yuck! Wouldn't own one.

>http://fwd4.me/83K ULA lights have worked well for me so far, and I
>bought a dozen. They're a nice cool white. Whatever you do, don't buy
>Lights of America brand which Homey's Despot used to sell. I had
>HORRIBLE experiences with their cheap crap.

>My electric bill last month was $18 and change. The only incans I have
>in the house are in the fridge, stove (no replacements available for
>the two previous lamps), laundry room (130v Rough Service which was
>here when I moved in and refuses to die), and a pair of Reveal bulbs
>in the security light outside.

Get real. The reason you have an $18 bill has nothing to do with
CFLs. Hell, I'd put up with CFLs if they'd run my heat pump and water
heater.

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:36:58 -0600, the infamous dpb <[email protected]>
> scrawled the following:
>
>>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>...
>>
>>> Years ago, NEMA standardized on voltage ratings as follows:
>>...
>>That's theory; I'm talking observed...again, may be better in less rural
>>areas.
>
> That's true. Local companies adjust transformers so the voltage at
> most outlets is going to be that nominal 120v. If you have a lot of
> heavy users on your particular transformer, the normal voltage will
> run high to compensate during those times the heavy users are using
> heavily. Capice?
>


Nope. The transformers at the substation have tap changers (works like a
voltage regulator) to maintain the voltage as close as possible under
varying load. As there are a finite number of taps, the voltage my vary a
bit.

On Dec 11, 12:01=A0pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > That's a big assumption. =A0The fact is that we use light to see.
>
> Well, I can assert that in my case (the only one that actually matters
> to me :) ) it's not an assumption at all. =A0I see fine using the same
> wattage-rated bulb in 130V version as the 120V and as long as that is so
> it's a win if they last longer...

Then why don't you use a 60W in stead of a 100W, for example?

> If you or another finds that isn't the case, you'll/they'll have to
> handle it however you/they choose but that wouldn't negate my usage
> patterns nor increase my cost (which was the erroneous claim being made).

You're simply fooling yourself.

On Dec 11, 8:44=A0am, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > less power (though less than expected using your calculations) will
> > make the bulb less efficient (lumens per watt), costing you money too.
>
> ...
>
> There's the same fallacy assumption that Lew made as well -- _ONLY_ if
> one is requiring the same or more lumens will there be a higher energy
> cost to obtain them--as told Lew, for household lighting, a 100W bulb is
> a 100W bulb and one gets the light one gets (at least that's what I do).
> =A0 It's good enough and bulbs last.

No fallacy at all. Need less light? Use a lower wattage, or fewer
bulbs.

> Sure it's not much for an ordinary 100W bulb so the convenience of not
> having to replace them is a factor but there's no economic penalty
> associated w/ gaining that (again, assuming one doesn't go from 75W _to_
> 100W per bulb).

That's a big assumption. The fact is that we use light to see.

Naaaw...we got the same bunch up here you got.

I'm not sure exactly who got that thinking in place,
but that's the way it's been for a very long time.

They are even taking down older aerial hook ups and
putting them back with underground.

We have had our share of hurricanes in the Carolina's
and the underground does pay off.

Swingman wrote:

>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>
> Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
> there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course? :)
>

"sibosop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d74a7f6e-dea2-413a-a205-57dd37415360@r24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 8, 8:36 am, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

OKay. Thanks everybody.
The way it is now is that there is a long extension cord (two wire
with ground) going to a short cord from the
saw (two wire). I can just replace the two wire cord with a three wire
and hook the ground to some appropriate piece
of iron on the saw top.

_______________________________________________

Why not just take out the short 2 wire cord and throw it away, and simply
attach the long 3 wire to the saw?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:26:31 -0600, [email protected]
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:28:59 -0600, [email protected]
>>(Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <194714e6-1fca-4bdb-ac4e-eb88d37528aa@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>>>[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>On Dec 10, 9:36 pm, "Martin H. Eastburn" <[email protected]>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>> We bought a new house once and the contractor put in 130v bulbs.
>>>>> Not he 115v ones we buy in the store - and run them on 120 or 125v.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway - when we sold the house 11 years later we still had some of
>>>>> the original bulbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider :  P=E*I   If E drops - the power drops.  The bulb runs cooler.
>>>>>              P=E^2/R  or R = E^2/P   130*130/100  = 13*13 = 269 ohms hot.
>>>>>              (rule of thumb 1/10 of hot = cold resistance or 27 ohms for
>>>>surges).
>>>>>              I=P/E = 100/130 = .76 amps
>>>>>     Now - using the 130 bulb with 269 ohm filament and we run it at 120 :
>>>>
>>>>>               P (used) = 120*120/269    or 14400/269 = 53.53 watts.
>>>>>               P=E*I   so I=P/E  I = 53/120 = .44 amps
>>>>
>>>>You assume that the temparature, thus the resistance, of the filament
>>>>is the same at 130V as it is at 120V. This is certainly *not* true.
>>>>At 120V, the lower filament temperature not only will the bulb use
>>>>less power (though less than expected using your calculations) will
>>>>make the bulb less efficient (lumens per watt), costing you money too.
>>>>
>>>>> lower used wattage, longer life due to the derrating.
>>>>
>>>>Much longer, yes. Bulb life is a function of something like the 16th
>>>>power of service voltage.
>>>
>>>Eleventh power. not 16th. <grin>
>>>a 5% decrease in voltage equates to an over 70% increase in bulb life.
>>
>>I've heard everything in between too. I haven't seen any definitive
>>reference, though.
>
>I have. <grin> The '11th power' figure comes from a college dorm-mate.
>He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And his
>masters thesis was on the subject.

AFOAF? ;-) Doesn't much matter which, the point stands.

>>>> It's still not saving money, unless there
>>>>is a cost associated with replacement in addition to the bulb cost.
>>>
>>>
>>>Depends on what you're measuring. <grin>
>>>
>>>"Per lumen of light output", the de-rated bulb is more expensive to operate.
>>
>>Generally light bulbs are used to make light.
>
>yup. But many people (erroneously!) consider _only_ the cost 'per hour of
>operation', in which case the de-rated bulb is _always_ less expensive _per_
>_hour_ than the one operated as rated.
>>
>>>If the de-rated output is 'adequate', and you're just looking at the cost of
>>>operating "a bulb", the 130V bulb does save a little (circa 10%) operating
>>>money. Plus a little more for the reduced replacement frequency. The only
>>>_real_ advantage comes if the bulb is located somewhere where it is _hard_
>>>to change -- i.e., with a significant 'labor' cost involved in performing
>>>the replacement.
>>
>>If can get by with less light, use a lower wattage bulb.
>
>With standard light-bulbs, that may _not_ be an option. Try and find an
>off-the-shelf (i.e., that you can by in a grocery, hardware, or home-
>improvement store) 'lower wattage bulb' with, say 10% less lumens than a
>standard 100 watt 120V one. Quite simply, they don't exist.

You assume *exact* illumination is required. Like most physiological
things, vision is logarithmic. There really isn't that much
difference between a 75W bulb and a 100W bulb that a 100W 130V bulb
would squeeze between.

>> If the bulb
>>is a PITA to get to, spend the money. It really is that simple.
>
>On -that-, we are in complete agreement.
>
I may do that for my great room can lights and ceiling fans. The fans
only take a 10' ladder to get to, but the can lights are going to be a
real PITA. I don't use them because I really don't want to get up
there until I have to paint the ceiling. ;-)

On Dec 11, 11:50=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

12GA is fine. .... The saw starts with authority now. =A0;-)

Wouldn't doubt it. I do go overboard with my wiring at times. Well,
most times. But I did only run three 8's and a ground to the shop.
Reading here, I probably should have gone with 6GA to be as bullet
proof! :)

krw wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:09:34 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "krw" wrote:
>>
>>> I may do that for my great room can lights and ceiling fans. The
>>> fans
>>> only take a 10' ladder to get to, but the can lights are going to be
>>> a
>>> real PITA. I don't use them because I really don't want to get up
>>> there until I have to paint the ceiling.
>> -------------------------------------------
>> A natural for CFLs where longer life provides a benefit.
>
> The light sucks ...<clipped>

From https://www.msu.edu/user/dynicrai/physics/dark.htm

For years it has been believed that electric bulbs emitted light.
However, recent information from Bell Labs has proven otherwise. lectric
bulbs don't emit light, they suck dark. Thus they now call these bulbs
dark suckers. The dark sucker theory, according to a Bell Labs
spokesperson, proves the existence of dark, that dark has mass heavier
than that of light, and that dark is faster than light.

The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck dark.
Take for example, the dark suckers in the room where you are. There is
less dark right next to them than there is elsewhere. The larger the
dark sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark suckers in a
parking lot have a much greater capacity than the ones in this room. As
with all things, dark suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of
dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the black spot on a
full dark sucker.

A candle is a primitive dark sucker. lA new candle has a white wick. You
will notice that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing
all the dark which has been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to
the wick of an operating candle, the tip will turn black because it got
in the path of the dark flowing into the candle.

Unfortunately, these primitive dark suckers have a very limited range.
There are also portable dark suckers. The bulbs in these can't handle
all of the dark by themselves, and must be aided by a dark storage unit.
When the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied or
replaced before the portable dark sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from this
mass generates heat. Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark
sucker. Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in
the solid wick instead of through glass. This generates a great amount
of heat. Thus it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle.

Dark is also heavier than light. If you swim deeper and deeper, you
notice it gets slowly darker and darker. When you reach a depth of
approximately fifty feet, you are in total darkness. This is because the
heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the lighter light
floats to the top.

The immense power of dark can be utilized to man's advantage. We can
collect the dark that has settled to the bottom of lakes and push it
through turbines, which generate electricity and help push it to the
ocean where it may be safely stored. Prior to turbines, it was much
more difficult to get dark from the rivers and lakes to the ocean. The
Indians recognized this problem, and tried to solve it. When on a river
in a canoe travelling in the same direction as the flow of the dark,
they paddled slowly, so as not to stop the flow of dark, but when they
traveled against the flow of dark, they paddled quickly so as to help
push the dark along its way.

Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were to
stand in an illuminated room in front of a closed, dark closet, then
slowly open the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the
closet, but since the dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the
dark leave the closet.

In conclusion, Bell Labs stated that dark suckers make all our lives
much easier. So the next time you look at an electric bulb remember that
it is indeed a dark sucker.

In article <[email protected]>,
CW <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:36:58 -0600, the infamous dpb <[email protected]>
>> scrawled the following:
>>
>>>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>...
>>>
>>>> Years ago, NEMA standardized on voltage ratings as follows:
>>>...
>>>That's theory; I'm talking observed...again, may be better in less rural
>>>areas.
>>
>> That's true. Local companies adjust transformers so the voltage at
>> most outlets is going to be that nominal 120v. If you have a lot of
>> heavy users on your particular transformer, the normal voltage will
>> run high to compensate during those times the heavy users are using
>> heavily. Capice?
>>
>
>
>Nope. The transformers at the substation have tap changers (works like a
>voltage regulator) to maintain the voltage as close as possible under
>varying load. As there are a finite number of taps, the voltage my vary a
>bit.
>

A *BIT* ??? <Snicker>

In many places, the regulation is *terrible*. One place I lived, I was
across the parking-lot from the neighborhood substation, in a building
with _old_ wiring in it ( turning on some of the big tube-type electronic
test gear I had would cause a _10+_ V drop in the voltage at that wall
outlet. [no drop on a different circuit, that was ALL losses in the building
wiring -- eek!]) I had a lab-grade line voltage monitor plugged in on one
circuit, and could watch the voltage drop as the neighborhood 'powered' up
in the morning. Around 3 AM 'line voltage' was circa 127-128v by 10 AM it
was down around 112-113 V. This was _after_ I'd had a 'discussion' with
the electric utility, resulting in a couple of real engineer (MSEE and
better) types, not just a 'lineman', coming by to visit, and check out my
monitoring gear; because when I first called the utility, peak sustained
voltages were in the 132-133V range -- which played hob with the life of
the light bulbs. :-/ They came out prepared to dismiss the crank reporting;
recognized some gear that was was in their labs, and decided to take me
seriously. A quick check comparing what my box displayed against their
'calibrated' box -- in agreement to within 0.1V -- and they promptly a
greed that there was a significant problem. A little _manual_ transformer
tweaking got things to 'borderline acceptable' at my location. *THEN* they
started looking at what was necessary to 'fix it right' for the whole area.

Yep - I have two (two-phase) High Voltage lines and a ground line
that branches off the highway my road attaches to. It is 12 to 1500 feet long
and has two transformers on it for me and I shared my line with the neighbor
who put in a shop. His house was powered off the highway.

I have two 'dummy' transformers - they are primary connected only as line
terminations while the house branches off and then the shop. Oddly,
both house and shop are on the same line. They are in the air and
has caused a lot of expense in tree trimming. Thankfully most of it was
by the power company and the rest by myself.

This county doesn't consider it an easement and tax the ground as tree property.
Martin



Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Stuart" wrote:
>
>> I'm rather glad we go in for underground cabling with large
>> transformers
>> serving a local area, at ground level, in secure cabinets, usually
>> fenced,
>> in the UK.
>
> For the last 30+ years, residential developments have been built with
> pad mount transformers and underground distribution; however, for most
> of the 20th century, above ground distribution was the norm, thus
> there is a lot of above ground still in existence.
>
> Lew
>
>
>

J. Clarke wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>>
>>> If he's using 130v bulbs on 120v then he's using about 15% less KWH
>>> than he
>>> would be using 120v of the same nominal wattage.
>> -------------------------------------
>> NOT!
>>
>> 100 watts is 100 watts regardless the voltage rating of the lamp.
>>
>> The current flowing thru the lamp is reduced which reduces lumen
>> output when the voltage rating of the lamp is increased.
>>
>> (E = I*R for a resistance load.)
>
> If you have visions of becoming an electrical engineer, don't quit your day
> job.
>
> For a resistive load P=E^2/R. If the lamp is rated for 100 watts at 130
> volts then it will dissipate (120^2/130^2)*100 watts at 120v or about 85
> watts if its resistance remains constant.

The assumption that the resistance will remain constant is a bad one. As has
already been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the resistance of a light
bulb varies with the temperature of the filament. A colder filament will have
a lower resistance. A lower resistance will result in a higher current and
a higher power. The actual power at 120 volts will be somewhere between the
85 watts that you calculated and the 100 watts that it would dissipate at
130 volts.

"Andrew Erickson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> For separate outbuildings, I think (but I'm not sure about this,
> not
> being an electrician) the usual practice is to have a separate
> ground
> rod and bond that to the neutral bus at the outbuilding's main
> panel,
> omitting a separate safety ground wire between the buildings.
> In other
> words, the outbuilding is wired as though it were an isolated
> installation, not as a subpanel in the main building. In this
> case, for
> the main panel in the outbuilding, neutral and ground would
> again share
> the same bus bar(s). Any difference in ground potential between
> the
> house ground and the outbuilding ground would, of course, result
> in a
> current flow over the neutral wire; the assumption, I guess, is
> that
> there shouldn't be a large potential difference and hence not
> too great
> of a current flow.
>

My Dad bought an older home and built a detached 2-car garage
around 1950 or so. I vaguely remember when the garage was being
built and watching the electrician wire it for a single light and
one plug, controlled from a switch both at the house and at the
garage/

As a teen, later on, I bought a little booket at Sears, called,
"How to wire a house," which I thought was an incredible insight
into the secrets of wiring. However, something never made sense
to me until later on, when I was wiring homes myself as a means to
continue college. There were only two wires running between the
house and garage. It finally dawned on me why in the summer, the
light wasn't as bright and why it would dim so much when I'd plug
a drill or small saw into the duplex receptacle.

I investigated and for the first time, noticed the bare wire
running from the old switch down to a rod driven into the ground.
That was the light leg and when it was summer in MO, it was
usually dry. The electrician had saved probably $2 in wire, back
then, deciding instead to use the earth as a ground/neutral.

--
Nonny

What does it mean when drool runs
out of both sides of a drunken
Congressman’s mouth?

The floor is level.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dpb wrote:
>
>> The motor only "needs" the two hots if you're going to get into "needs"
>
> Hell, you really don't _need_ no stinking plug! :)
>
> ... ask any South o' the Border carpenter on a job site, who will
> routinely strip 1" off two leads of an extension cord and stick'em
> straight into the female receptacle on the t-pole (or the dryer plug in
> the utility room which is usually the first thing powered in new
> construction), to power 220/240 equipment.
>
> Floor finishers are really bad about it because most of those big floor
> sanders require 220/240, and they never seem to carry adapters.


I reecall seeing the floor finisher using bare ended Tomex as an extension
cord in Elgin.

"Martin H. Eastburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> They are called 'swinging transformers'

Funny, in the business we always called them tap changers, as did the power
companies that we dealt with (nation wide in the U.S.and parts of Canada).
When dealing with the manufacturers, they called them tap changers too. Glad
you straitened that out. We must have been wrong all these years. I'll have
to let them know.

On 12/8/09 6:06 PM, "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>
>> Code... hmmmmm. Naw there was no ground at all in the box that I spliced
>> into. ;~) The dryer and shop share the same circuit. If I ever move I
>> will yank the external addition.
>
> I bet there is...(a ground that is)... :)
>
> If it's 3-wire dryer outlet the "neutral" will actually be on the ground
> connection conductor...so when you tied your third to it it is also
> ground. I'd wager that's what you'd find if you were to check the
> circuit connections in the panel.

Neutral is connected to an earth ground at the service panel but the neutral
and ground wires play different roles in the circuits once you leave the
main panel. The neutral carries current. It s nominally the return path, but
because we use AC, the current flows in both directions at different times.
The ground should never carry current in normal situations. It is there for
protection.

In a three wire 220v set up, you have two hot wires and a ground. The two
hot lines are in opposite phase, giving the 220v volts.

If you are re-wiring a tool to run on 220, you should also change the plug
to one rate for 220. They have a different prong pattern so you can't easily
plug them into the wrong circuit.

"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Naaaw...we got the same bunch up here you got.
>
> I'm not sure exactly who got that thinking in place,
> but that's the way it's been for a very long time.
>
> They are even taking down older aerial hook ups and
> putting them back with underground.
>
> We have had our share of hurricanes in the Carolina's
> and the underground does pay off.
>
In the little town I live in (population 2000), all our power is on poles.
The towns around us, one of which is butted right up against us, have
underground systems. In the 17 years I have lived here, the longest we have
ever lost power was about 20 minutes. Not so with the towns around us. They
loose power for at least a few hours per year. One time, for two weeks in a
certain section. I remember my boss coming in in a less than good mood for a
couple of weeks when his power was out due to an ice storm. I lost a couple
of antenna but I still had power. I'm not advocating above ground power.
This doesn't make sense but I'm glad it has been that way.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I AM NO ELECTRICIAN
>>
>> But I wired my 220 TS 10 years ago. Mine has 3 wires. 2 leads and a
>> neutral, not a ground.
>> Are you sure yours is not wired for 110? From what I understand more
>> modern wiring set ups are 4 wire. 2 leads, a neutral and a ground.
>>
>
> Nope. Just for appliances like clothes dryers which tap 120 off for
> things like control circuits. Not so for a table saw unless yours has a
> spin dry timer. I suspect yours has two 120v lines and a ground.

Noooo I am tapped in to the dryer circuit. ;~) Has worked well for 10+
years. I'll look into the spin dry cycle.

"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> dpb wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I reecall seeing the floor finisher using bare ended Tomex as
>>> an extension cord in Elgin.
>>>
>>
>> ROMEX
>>
>> I guess he might have Tormex'ed the wire ends to make them
>> pointy so they would go in easier. ;~)
> Do not use the backstab connectors!
>
> --
> Froz...

Nope- it's done from the front. Just strip the wires back 3/4 to
1" or so and twist the bare conductor into a loop. Flatten the
loop a little bit to make it just skinny enough to fit through the
Bakelite outlet face and it makes a very good, serviceable, male
plug.

--
Nonny

What does it mean when drool runs
out of both sides of a drunken
Congressman's mouth?

The floor is level.

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> Code... hmmmmm. Naw there was no ground at all in the box that I spliced
>> into. ;~) The dryer and shop share the same circuit. If I ever move I
>> will yank the external addition.
>
> I bet there is...(a ground that is)... :)
>
> If it's 3-wire dryer outlet the "neutral" will actually be on the ground
> connection conductor...so when you tied your third to it it is also
> ground. I'd wager that's what you'd find if you were to check the circuit
> connections in the panel.


You are probably right.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "charlie" wrote:
>
>> this is highly location dependent. maybe in your area it is, but not
>> around my locale.
>>
>> blanket statements usually aren't.
> -----------------------------------------------
> Without question, the local often utility requires some nudging,
> usually in the form of legislation, to provide underground service in
> residential areas.
>
> Utilities are not know for being on the cutting edge, at least the
> ones I've had contact with aren't.

The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to the
cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

At least that way, if they ever stop talking about it and actually do
it, these folks should be able to hook up at minnimum additional cost.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 12/10/09 6:47 PM, Stuart wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "dpb" wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, I'm buying bulbs...or actually, not buying nearly as many bulbs
>>>> as would otherwise.
>>>
>>> Actually you are buying both lamps and KWH to operate them.
>>>
>>> If you wish to buy more KWH than are needed for the sake of
>>> convenience, that's your choice.
>
>> No, 75 or 100W is still 75 or 100W...
>
> If a 100W bulb is run on less than its nominal voltage it will consume a
> little less power and run less efficiently that's all. The light will be
> yellower but its life will be extended.
> If that is the choice you wish to make then that's entirely your affair
> and no one else's.
>
Correct the bulbs resistance is fixed, increased voltage causes more
amperage, reduced voltage reduces the amperage. Light output and bulb
life will vary according to their ratings.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

krw wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:33:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
> <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0500, the infamous "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> "Nonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> "Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
>>>> resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
>>>> general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
>>>> understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but of
>>>> equal relevance here. <Grin>
>>>>
>>>> Electricity explained
>>>> I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
>>>> different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
>>>> Secondly,
>>>> it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
>>>> coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
>>>> 110
>>>> comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
>>>> below the equator.
>>>> Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
>>>> flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
>>>> clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
>>>> Since
>>>> most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
>>>> up
>>>> and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
>>>> and
>>>> up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
>>>> side only gives you 110 volts.
>>>> This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
>>>> of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
>>>> instance, it
>>>> will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
>>>> you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
>>>> Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
>>>> electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
>>>> person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
>>>> of bread she put in it.
>>>> If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
>>>> volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
>>>> from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
>>>> then
>>>> turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
>>>> down
>>>> sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
>>>> sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just
>>>
>>> Finally! An authoritative explanation of all those things that have been so
>>> confusing for so long!
>> Well, all I want to know is how do they get the electricity past that
>> extreme barrier called the Equator? Normally, things from either
>> hemisphere don't mix. Is this magic or science which allows 'lectrons
>>from Oz to come up here?
>
> Maybe they use transformers at the equator. Which way do electrons
> spin down there?
Simple. Opposite Poles attract.

Leon wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>
>>> The common neutral that was dedicated to my house and 3 neighbors had
>>> rusted
>>> and was causing the dimming problem for all of us. The light company came
>>> out and replaced the "thang" that attached the neutrals to the 4 houses.
>>>
>>> Every thing went back to 122 volts after the repair.
>> The scary part of that is that it means your 4 homes don't have any
>> kind of local grounding rods. It's all at the pole!
>
> No, we all have grounding rods, the power co. guy checked mine. But he did
> say if it has to handle the whole house because of a bad common and is not a
> really really good ground you will see lights dim.

I bet that ground rod connection is now "gut'n tight", if it wasn't
before! :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article <[email protected]>,
dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Dec 11, 12:01 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> That's a big assumption. The fact is that we use light to see.
>>> Well, I can assert that in my case (the only one that actually matters
>>> to me :) ) it's not an assumption at all. I see fine using the same
>>> wattage-rated bulb in 130V version as the 120V and as long as that is so
>>> it's a win if they last longer...
>>
>> Then why don't you use a 60W in stead of a 100W, for example?
>
>Because the difference in a 60W @120V wouldn't be enough for a location
>that has a 100W in it, either. The substitution is as earlier
>stated--simply 130V of whatever I'd use 120V in that location and I'm
>good to go.

A 100 W 130V bulb operated at 120V has just about the same output as a 75W 120V
bulb. It's a wash on electricity cost, balanced against the cost difference
for the 130V bulbs, vs 120V ones. Plus the "convenience factor" of less
frequent bulb replacement. Drawback: the 130V bulbs give off a "yellower"
light than the 120V ones -- one may, or may not, notice it.

A 60W 120V bulb has somewhat more output than a 75W 130V bulb at 120V.
The 120v bulb is the _clear_ winner in this case. bulb is less expensive,
gives off more light, and uses less electricity. The -only- advantage to
the 130V bulb is less-frequent replacement.

At lower wattages (60W@130/40W@120 and 40W@130/25W@120), the cost advantage
also goes to the rated 120V bulb. Again, the -only- advantage to the 130V
bulb is less-frequent replacement.

Do any of you electricians recall the OLD way of wiring a double
pole switch from the knob and tube days. Yup, fellows, there
actually is an alternate way to wire a DP circuit.

Nonny


"Andrew Erickson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Leon wrote:
>> ...
>> > Hey It is hard to tell what the voltage is any more. LOL. 2
>> > weeks ago
>> > "after" having 3 new leads run underground to my home, I lost
>> > electricity
>> > in
>> > 1/2 of my house and had no 240? ;!) I started having issues
>> > with lights
>> > diming.
>>
>> Bad neutral is different that my reference altho can be
>> entertaining set
>> of symptoms (unfortunately, which may also turn into
>> expensive)...
>
> Loss of one hot at the breaker panel can also be entertaining,
> although
> generally not as destructive. I've had that happen once or
> twice,
> mainly at a house with an older distribution panel that used
> individual
> cartridge fuses for the main rather than a ganged circuit
> breaker. Have
> one wear out or go pop or whatever, and suddenly you have one
> phase
> powered normally, and one phase powered through any 220V things
> that
> happen to be on--mainly the water heater, in my case. Small
> loads
> worked fine on that leg, but anything that drew any current
> would cause
> the voltage to go down dramatically. The microwave clock, for
> instance,
> ran fine, until actual cooking was attempted....
>
>> ...
>>
>> BTW, on that 240V circuit, I'd presume it is more than likely
>> ok but it
>> might not hurt to double check did actually hook the ground
>> conductor to
>> the ground buss in the box rather than to the neutral buss if
>> really
>> were thinking neutral as opposed to ground way back
>> then...nothing is
>> going to happen but it really ought to be on ground, not
>> neutral per Code.
>
> It depends where you're talking about checking. There is one
> point in
> the system, typically at the main disconnect (the main breaker
> box),
> where neutral and ground are bonded together, and at that point
> the
> neutral buss is the ground buss and vice-versa.
>
> For separate outbuildings, I think (but I'm not sure about this,
> not
> being an electrician) the usual practice is to have a separate
> ground
> rod and bond that to the neutral bus at the outbuilding's main
> panel,
> omitting a separate safety ground wire between the buildings.
> In other
> words, the outbuilding is wired as though it were an isolated
> installation, not as a subpanel in the main building. In this
> case, for
> the main panel in the outbuilding, neutral and ground would
> again share
> the same bus bar(s). Any difference in ground potential between
> the
> house ground and the outbuilding ground would, of course, result
> in a
> current flow over the neutral wire; the assumption, I guess, is
> that
> there shouldn't be a large potential difference and hence not
> too great
> of a current flow.
>
> --
> Andrew Erickson
>
> "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which
> he cannot
> lose." -- Jim Elliot


--
Nonny

What does it mean when drool runs
out of both sides of a drunken
Congressman’s mouth?

The floor is level.

In article <[email protected]>,
dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
[[.. sneck ..]]

>Interesting that Lew would point this out in a followup post that a
>higher-cost bulb pays for itself even at lower power cost but can't help
>but try to make a putdown to the logic of using a 130V to obtain the
>same benefit.

Substituting a standard 130V bulb for a standard 120V one probably does *NOT*
pay for itself -- *IF* you need the same light output as the 120V bulb gives.

Running a bulb at lower than the 'rated' voltage, _does_ extend the life of
the bulb, *BUT* the quantity of light output (the 'lumens') goes down even
_faster_ than the savings in electricity. Thus the 'cost per lumen' of the
eletricity is _higher_ usuwing the 130V bulb at 120v, vs the 120v bulb.

It is also a fact that the cost of electricity over the life of the bulb
swamps the cost of the bulb itself.

That said, there are "much more efficient" technologies for lighting than
'incandescent', e.g. 'halogen'. These technologies have a _much_ higher
lumen output _per_watt_of_power_consumed_ than conventional incandescents.
Thus, you can get the same _light_ output, for far less power consumed.
Amortized over the rated life of the bulb, the power savings _greatly_
exceed the cost of the 'high-priced' bulb required to achieve the savings.o

Running the _same_ technology (incandescent) in a down-graded form (130V bulb
at 120V) does *not* achieve these savings. In fact, because the bulb is being
operated in a 'less than optimum' (relative to _design_ criteria) manner, the
cost _per_lumen_output_ is higher than the optimal operation.

In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.


Swingman wrote:

>
> The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
> infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.
>
> In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
> from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to the
> cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

Pat Barber wrote:

> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
>> infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.
>>
>> In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
>> from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
>> the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

> In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
> find a underground service. They made that the standard
> here well over 30 years ago.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course? :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 12/15/09 6:22 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" wrote
>>
>> I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my house, a
>> little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's attached to.
>> I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
>> on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines on the
>> street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here within
>> the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.
>> --
> I used to live across from an elementary school. As neighbors of the school,
> we would keep an eye on the school and report any suspicious activity. We
> called in a couple of things and some bad guys got caught.
>
> Early one morning there was a big explosion. It rattled the windows for the
> whole block. I had a friend who was staying over the night and was sleeping
> on the couch in front of the window that faced the school. It knocked him
> off the couch. We were surprised that the windows did not break.
>
> After a number of frantic 911 calls, the cops raced to the scene and looked
> everything over. They quickly found a charred, black feather under a power
> pole. They looked up and saw a transformer with the side blown out of it. A
> crow had got into the transformer and shorted it out. Needless to say, a
> couple feathers was all that was left of the crow. Apparently this was a
> common enough of a problem tht the police first check the power poles after
> the report of an explosion.
>
> They had to shut the power down for the whole neighborhood for about six
> hours. And the utility company decided to start installing "crow resistant"
> transformers". But only after this happened many times. Who was the bird
> brain that didn't make the transformers "crow resistant" in the first place?
>
It isn't just birds, I have personally seen a raccoon and a squirrel
that got
fried on transformers in two separate incidents.

The coon, was still alive, but rather disoriented.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

What has gone unsaid is that a yellowish bulb gives the subliminal
impression of warmth. By dropping the voltage across the lamp
filament, you can fool the building occupants into turning down
the thermostat in the winter. This saves on heating oil, gas,
coal or electricity. Thus, it's obvious: a diode or series
wiring saves energy during cold weather. During the summer, just
boost the voltage up a tad and they'll be turning off the A/C and
putting on sweaters.

<grin> Please send all flames and men in white coats to someone
else.

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> BTW, on that 240V circuit, I'd presume it is more than likely ok but it
> might not hurt to double check did actually hook the ground conductor to
> the ground buss in the box rather than to the neutral buss if really were
> thinking neutral as opposed to ground way back then...nothing is going to
> happen but it really ought to be on ground, not neutral per Code.
>
> --


Code... hmmmmm. Naw there was no ground at all in the box that I spliced
into. ;~) The dryer and shop share the same circuit. If I ever move I
will yank the external addition.

"Stuart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> If a 100W bulb is run on less than its nominal voltage it will
> consume a
> little less power and run less efficiently that's all. The light
> will be
> yellower but its life will be extended.
> If that is the choice you wish to make then that's entirely your
> affair
> and no one else's.
>

If you have a light fixture that's difficult to reach, Radio Shack
is your friend. Our great room had a couple track lights well
over 30' from the floor and a ceiling fan's 4 lights were around
25' high. Even with my straight ladder braced against the
ceiling, it was awkward as the dickens getting the ladder inside,
extended and within reach of either track OR the fan in
particular. Eventually, some of the track bulbs departed and a
couple of the fan bulbs as well. It was about time to paint the
room, so I had the painter replace all bulbs with new.

I then visited Radio Shack and bought some 5a diodes for about a
dime each. It was simple to install the diodes in series with the
light switch, working on the floor at the switch and not up on a
ladder. Each diode was well within the range of ampacity of the
fixture/lights, of course.

The resulting lamps had a slightly yellower glow to them, but I
never had to worry about replacing another bulb. (No diode on the
fan's fan circuit, of course).

Another comment, about two lamps in a pump house wired in series,
reminded me of our porch lights. There, we had a carriage light
on either side of our entry doors on the front porch. The glass
in the carriage lights was bubbled and cross hatched by design. I
never really liked the way it looked when lighted, so I got a
couple bulbs with spiral "flame type" indentations in them.
They're quite common at any hardware, light or big box store. I
then wired the two lights in series, rather than parallel,
dropping the voltage across the two matched bulbs by 50%. The
resulting light was a beautiful yellowish glow and the combined
effect of the cross hatched glass in the fixtures, coupled with
the spiral indentations in the bulb gave a flickering effect to
the lights when someone walked or drove in front of them. It
really looked swell and I soon began just leaving them on
24/7/365. When we moved from the house to another, we took the
porch carriage lights with us; the bulbs were 13 years old by
then, and they lasted another 10 years at the second location in
the same fixtures.


--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

"Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about
voltage, resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go
ahead and give a general explanation of electricity for those of
you all who don't really understand it fully. It's a repeat of a
post to another newsgroup, but of equal relevance here. <Grin>

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is
so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt
lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and
down 110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version
comes from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the
direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it
goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter
clockwise. Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives
you an up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a
down and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either
individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools-
which side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt
source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary
burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from
Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew
one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze
the slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two
US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I
learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse
box and then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two
up and down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the
box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited
to just
using Canadian tools with it.

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> EXT wrote:
> ...
>
>> That is right. You only need a neutral when you need dual voltage as in a
>> dryer or stove. 240V (no longer 220 volt) only equipment such as motors
>> only need the two hot wires and a ground. ...
>
> I just kept w/ Leon's values -- there's really ime no telling what any
> given locale will be running as actual voltages...

Snip



Hey It is hard to tell what the voltage is any more. LOL. 2 weeks ago
"after" having 3 new leads run underground to my home, I lost electricity in
1/2 of my house and had no 240? ;!) I started having issues with lights
diming.

I used a volt meter to check the voltage on the side of the house that I had
previousely been dead and got 105 volts on about half the recepticals. The
other half showed 138 volts.

The common neutral that was dedicated to my house and 3 neighbors had rusted
and was causing the dimming problem for all of us. The light company came
out and replaced the "thang" that attached the neutrals to the 4 houses.

Every thing went back to 122 volts after the repair.

Nonny wrote:
>
> "Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
> resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give
> a general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't
> really understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another
> newsgroup, but of equal relevance here. <Grin>
>
> Electricity explained
> I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
> different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big. Secondly,
> it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
> coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down 110
> comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
> below the equator.
> Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
> flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
> clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
> Since
> most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you
> an up
> and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down and
> up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
> side only gives you 110 volts.
> This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
> of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
> instance, it
> will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
> you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
> Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
> electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
> person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
> of bread she put in it.
> If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
> volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
> from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
> then
> turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
> down
> sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
> sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just
> using Canadian tools with it.
>
My sinuses haven't been this clear in days... wow.
:-0

Leon wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> dpb wrote:
>
>>
>> I reecall seeing the floor finisher using bare ended Tomex as an
>> extension cord in Elgin.
>>
>
> ROMEX
>
> I guess he might have Tormex'ed the wire ends to make them pointy so they
> would go in easier. ;~)
>
>
Do not use the backstab connectors!

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

[email protected] wrote:

> I'm a bit confused. All of you are correctly worried about the
> ground etc... Doesn't it bother anybody that the electrician ran a
> #10 wire to the shop for a 30 amp circuit? I thought #10 was for 20
> amps and #8 was the minimum for 30 amps. Am I wrong about that??

I think this came out of the old FAQ here, or maybe Lew posted it years ago?

Wire size is determined by the load computed for the branch circuit.
The load tells you the size of wire to use and the size of the
overcurrent protection to use. Use only 80% of the maximum current
capacity of the wire and the overcurrent protection (breaker or fuse).

*************************************
| AWG | MAX-AMPS |
| ----------------- | --------------|

| 14 | 15 |
| 12 | 20 |
| 10 | 30 |
| 8 | 50 |
| 6 | 65 |
| 4 | 85 |
| 3 | 100 |
| 2 | 115 |
| 1 | 130 |
| 1/0 | 150 |
| 2/0 | 175 |
| 3/0 | 200 |
| 4/0 | 230 |
*************************************

Anyway, IME, it's still fairly standard for most US locales.,

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article <[email protected]>,
IanM <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "FrozenNorth" wrote:
>>
>>> Correct the bulbs resistance is fixed, increased voltage causes more
>>> amperage, reduced voltage reduces the amperage. Light output and
>>> bulb life will vary according to their ratings.
>> ==============================================
>> NOT!!!
>>
>> As the voltage rating of a specific wattage lamp rating increases, so
>> does the
>> resistance of the filament.
>>
>> This increased filament resistance provides a mechanically heavier
>> wire which
>> then allows for a "rough service" or "traffic signal" lamp rating.
>>
>> The increased filament resistance also reduces the current flowing
>> thru the filament
>> which in turn reduces the lumen output.
>>
>> Basic data available in any lamp catalog.
>>
>> Just some of the basic engineering trade offs the lamp designer faces.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>Please explain *CLEARLY* how increasing the thickness of any uniform
>substance can *increase* the resistance if everything else remains
>unchanged.

With light bulbs, the explanation is _simple_. Your assumption is in
error -- "everything else" does _not_ remain unchanged. <grin>

(Note: Lew had the 'results' right, albeit with a somewhat incorrect
description of the 'causation')

'Rough service' bulbs use a different composition in the filament element
than normal service bulbs. It has a *much* higher resistance per unit of
cross-section area, and thus *does* require a larger cross-section to get
the 'appropriate' resistance for the slightly lower amperage needed for the
same number of watts as the lower-voltage bulb. Note: the 'wire length' of
the actual 'element' in a rough service bulb is usually much shorter (not as
much 'coil') -- necessitating a higher resistance 'per unit length'; over and
above the compensation for the larger cross-section.

BTW, the relationship between bulb life and applied voltage is an _eleventh_
_order_ equation -- i.e., a 5% decrease in applied voltage will result in
an over 70% increase in bulb life. Note: decreasing the voltage by 5% _will_
result in a _more_than_5%_ decrease in the light output, so you _do_ end up
paying 'more *per*lumen*of*light*output*'.

NOTE: the cost of the electricity to operate a 'typical' household light-bulb
(25-150 watt) is generally *several*times* the cost of the bulb itself.

>Hint: imagine a square wire of a fixed length, double its thickness and
>width, now explain to me the difference between that and four wires of
>the original thickness in parallel for 1/4 the resistance!

Hint: imagine a square copper wire of a fixed length, now double its thickness
and width, _in_steel_, and explain how that is equivalent to four copper
wires of the original thickness in parallel for 1/4 the resistance! <grin>

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> I AM NO ELECTRICIAN
>
> But I wired my 220 TS 10 years ago. Mine has 3 wires. 2 leads and a
> neutral, not a ground.
> Are you sure yours is not wired for 110? From what I understand more
> modern wiring set ups are 4 wire. 2 leads, a neutral and a ground.
>

Nope. Just for appliances like clothes dryers which tap 120 off for things
like control circuits. Not so for a table saw unless yours has a spin dry
timer. I suspect yours has two 120v lines and a ground.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

IanM <[email protected]> writes:

>Please explain *CLEARLY* how increasing the thickness of any uniform
>substance can *increase* the resistance if everything else remains
>unchanged.
>

The resistance varies inversely to the cross-section of the conductor.

AWG 12 wire resistance/foot = 1.619Ohms.
AWG 10 wire resistance/foot = 1.018ohms.
AWG 8 0.6405

http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html

Ergo, heavier wire, less resistance.

So assume that a 100watt blub rated at 130V filament consumes
0.769231 amperes of current. From ohms law, one can then derive
the resistance of the conductor as (R=V/I) 156 ohms.

Now run that same bulb at 120volts, the current in the filament
(per again ohms law) will be (I=V/R) 0.769231 (i.e. the same current).

However, the power consumed (P=IV) will only be 92.3 watts, thus
reducing the lumen output of the bulb.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:40:43 -0600, the infamous
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>> On Dec 11, 12:01 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> That's a big assumption. The fact is that we use light to see.
>>>> Well, I can assert that in my case (the only one that actually matters
>>>> to me :) ) it's not an assumption at all. I see fine using the same
>>>> wattage-rated bulb in 130V version as the 120V and as long as that is so
>>>> it's a win if they last longer...
>>>
>>> Then why don't you use a 60W in stead of a 100W, for example?
>>
>>Because the difference in a 60W @120V wouldn't be enough for a location
>>that has a 100W in it, either. The substitution is as earlier
>>stated--simply 130V of whatever I'd use 120V in that location and I'm
>>good to go.
>
>A 100 W 130V bulb operated at 120V has just about the same output as a 75W 120V
>bulb. It's a wash on electricity cost, balanced against the cost difference
>for the 130V bulbs, vs 120V ones. Plus the "convenience factor" of less
>frequent bulb replacement. Drawback: the 130V bulbs give off a "yellower"
>light than the 120V ones -- one may, or may not, notice it.
>
>A 60W 120V bulb has somewhat more output than a 75W 130V bulb at 120V.
>The 120v bulb is the _clear_ winner in this case. bulb is less expensive,
>gives off more light, and uses less electricity. The -only- advantage to
>the 130V bulb is less-frequent replacement.
>
>At lower wattages (60W@130/40W@120 and 40W@130/25W@120), the cost advantage
>also goes to the rated 120V bulb. Again, the -only- advantage to the 130V
>bulb is less-frequent replacement.

Why don't ALL OF YOU stop wasting electricity and get rid of the
ghastly yellow lighting at the same time? CFLs are the way to go.
http://fwd4.me/83K ULA lights have worked well for me so far, and I
bought a dozen. They're a nice cool white. Whatever you do, don't buy
Lights of America brand which Homey's Despot used to sell. I had
HORRIBLE experiences with their cheap crap.

My electric bill last month was $18 and change. The only incans I have
in the house are in the fridge, stove (no replacements available for
the two previous lamps), laundry room (130v Rough Service which was
here when I moved in and refuses to die), and a pair of Reveal bulbs
in the security light outside.

--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance

On Dec 11, 1:12=A0am, IanM <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> > "FrozenNorth" wrote:
>
> >> Correct the bulbs resistance is fixed, increased voltage causes more
> >> amperage, reduced voltage reduces the amperage. =A0Light output and
> >> bulb life will vary according to their ratings.
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > NOT!!!
>
> > As the voltage rating of a specific wattage lamp rating increases, so
> > does the
> > resistance of the filament.
>
> > This increased filament resistance provides a mechanically heavier
> > wire which
> > then allows for a "rough service" or "traffic signal" lamp rating.
>
> > The increased filament resistance also reduces the current flowing
> > thru the filament
> > which in turn reduces the lumen output.
>
> > Basic data available in any lamp catalog.
>
> > Just some of the basic engineering trade offs the lamp designer faces.
>
> > Lew
>
> Please explain *CLEARLY* how increasing the thickness of any uniform
> substance can *increase* the resistance if everything else remains
> unchanged.
>
> Hint: imagine a square wire of a fixed length, double its thickness and
> width, now explain to me the difference between that and four wires of
> the original thickness in parallel for 1/4 the resistance!

Who said anything about a fixed length?

On Dec 9, 1:36=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Dec 9, 11:26=A0am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
>

Thank you. My sub-panel is in a barn 80 feet from the house panel. I
ran a solid copper (#8?) to the ground stake just outside where the
sub is mounted. The connection runs under ground (in HDPE pipe) along
with a 10Bast-T and a Coax.

On the suggestion (elsewhere): "Why not just take out the short 2 wire
cord and throw it away, and simply attach the long 3 wire to the saw?
"

I would say one needs to watch out that the longer "extension" cord is
of a suitable gauge as many tools come with a minimum gauge "pigtail"
which is "OK" if plugged directly into a suitable (amp-wise) outlet,
but not if run through one of those 16 gauge extension cords -
espeacially when they are twenty-five feet and more.

If you do re-wire with a longer cord, use at least 10 Gauge wire with
a ground (IMHO) to get the most power out of your tool. I use 20AMP
cords if "extending" to a Table Saw and the like. I've noticed severe
slowing down/loss of power when using lighter cords and the cord (esp
at plug end) get nice and toasty.




>
> > On Dec 8, 2:28=A0am, sibosop <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I realize this isn't exactly a woodworking question, but when I asked
> > > about 220 V wiring for my shed in an earlier thread a lot of
> > > electricians came out of the 'woodwork'.
>
> > > So. I now have 220 V in my shed for my Walker Turner table saw. I
> > > noticed that the plug from the saw only has two wires. The ground is
> > > not connected. =A0My shed has a ground stake.
> > > Should I run the ground wire to the saw? It certainly has a whooping
> > > iron chasis.
> > > Should I not do this?
>
> > > (For those of you who helped me the last time, I finally decided to
> > > get an electrician to wire it. He took the 220V
> > > line from my 30 amp circuit for the house drier (I have a gas drier,
> > > so I don't use it), ran #10 wires out to a 30 amp
> > > breaker panel in the shed, split out two 110V circuits and a 20 amp
> > > 220v and put in a ground stake. This took him
> > > 6 hours. It would have taken me about 2 months).
>
> > > thanks,
> > > b
>
> > My 220 consists of three leades, two "hot" and one "neutral" but the
> > newest setups (for household appliances 0 like a dryer) include a
> > separate equipment ground and use a four-conductor plug.
>
> If you only have three leads, one is a ground not a neutral. =A0Often,
> like older driers and range installations the ground is used as a
> neutral, but as you note, this is no longer allowed. =A0Circuits like
> air conditioners (and saws) that don't need a neutral can still use
> three wire circuits but the third wire is a ground, not a neutral (it
> carries no current). =A0Equipment grounds have been required for at
> least fifty years.
>
> > As I understand it, a short in your saw could conceivably employ you
> > as the ground (wet shoes, damp floor and a short to the frame).
>
> Which is why the equipment ground is a requirement. =A0There would be no
> neutral current so a neutral conductor is not required.
>
> > I may be wrong, but I wire my 220VAC equipment with all four
> > conductors and do have a ground stake for the shop power distribution
> > box (about a 100 feet from the mains I ran it from at the house).
>
> The *only* place neutral and ground may be (and must be) connected is
> at the entrance panel. =A0Neutral and ground must be separated
> everywhere else. =A0If your sub panel is separate from your entrance
> panel it shouldn't have a separate ground stake, though perhaps it's
> OK if a *large* enough ground wire connects the two. =A0I'm not sure
> about this detail because it's easier to not have the ground stake at
> the sub. =A0If there is a nearby lightning strike you want the house to
> "ride the wave" (one ground point) not invite the current through your
> house (two grounds).

On Dec 11, 9:49=A0am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Dec 9, 1:36=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 9, 11:26=A0am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Thank you. My sub-panel is in a barn 80 feet from the house panel. I
> ran a solid copper (#8?) to the ground stake just outside where the
> sub is mounted. The connection runs under ground (in HDPE pipe) along
> with a 10Bast-T and a Coax.

That's a different situation. It's not just a sub panel.

> On the suggestion (elsewhere): "Why not just take out the short 2 wire
> cord and throw it away, and simply attach the long 3 wire to the saw?
> "
>
> I would say one needs to watch out that the longer "extension" cord is
> of a suitable gauge as many tools come with a minimum gauge "pigtail"
> which is "OK" if plugged directly into a suitable (amp-wise) outlet,
> but not if run through one of those 16 gauge extension cords -
> espeacially when they are twenty-five feet and more.

Well, ya. Cords must be rated for the current drawn. 16ga is good
for 13A, IIRC. I think the only 16GA extension cords I own are used
only for lights. For (hand) saws I use only 12GA, even only 25'.

> If you do re-wire with a longer cord, use at least 10 Gauge wire with
> a ground (IMHO) to get the most power out of your tool. I use 20AMP
> cords if "extending" to a Table Saw and the like. I've noticed severe
> slowing down/loss of power when using lighter cords and the cord (esp
> at plug end) get nice and toasty.

12GA is fine. It's no different than the wiring in the house. A foot
of 12GA in the wall is the same as a foot of extension. Yes, if the
total run is too long, half of it in 10GA will help. I replaced the
cord on my Unisaw with 15' of 12-3 SJ. There's probably 50' of 12-2 w/
G going back to the sub-panel from the wall. Changing the 15' from
12ga to 10ga isn't going to change anything. The saw starts with
authority now. ;-)

On Dec 8, 8:36=A0am, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> EXT wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > That is right. You only need a neutral when you need dual voltage as in
> > a dryer or stove. 240V (no longer 220 volt) only equipment such as
> > motors only need the two hot wires and a ground. ...
>
> I just kept w/ Leon's values -- there's really ime no telling what any
> given locale will be running as actual voltages...
>
> The motor only "needs" the two hots if you're going to get into "needs"
> (as the fact OP's running it currently on the 2-wire cordset shows). =A0:=
)
>
> /No, I _couldn't_ help myself now, could I? :)/
>
> --

OKay. Thanks everybody.
The way it is now is that there is a long extension cord (two wire
with ground) going to a short cord from the
saw (two wire). I can just replace the two wire cord with a three wire
and hook the ground to some appropriate piece
of iron on the saw top.

b

We bought a new house once and the contractor put in 130v bulbs.
Not he 115v ones we buy in the store - and run them on 120 or 125v.

Anyway - when we sold the house 11 years later we still had some of
the original bulbs.

Consider : P=E*I If E drops - the power drops. The bulb runs cooler.
P=E^2/R or R = E^2/P 130*130/100 = 13*13 = 269 ohms hot.
(rule of thumb 1/10 of hot = cold resistance or 27 ohms for surges).
I=P/E = 100/130 = .76 amps
Now - using the 130 bulb with 269 ohm filament and we run it at 120 :

P (used) = 120*120/269 or 14400/269 = 53.53 watts.
P=E*I so I=P/E I = 53/120 = .44 amps

lower used wattage, longer life due to the derrating.

Martin

dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "dpb" wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, I'm buying bulbs...or actually, not buying nearly as many bulbs
>>>> as would otherwise.
>>> Actually you are buying both lamps and KWH to operate them.
>>>
>>> If you wish to buy more KWH than are needed for the sake of
>>> convenience, that's your choice.
>>
>> If he's using 130v bulbs on 120v then he's using about 15% less KWH
>> than he would be using 120v of the same nominal wattage. If that
>> gives him enough light then he's got no problem. If he has to add
>> bulbs or go up a wattage level to get the illumination level he needs
>> then things get more complicated.
>
> I use the same rating bulbs, yes. It is "nominal" 120V of course, but
> generally we will be closer to 125-127V than 120V and on rural lines w/
> long distances fluctuations and interruptions are more frequent than
> most are used to; just goes w/ the territory of having only
> 1-and-a-fraction loads/mile on distribution lines as opposed to
> residential distribution grids. Hence, the lifetime is greatly extended.
>
> Interesting that Lew would point this out in a followup post that a
> higher-cost bulb pays for itself even at lower power cost but can't help
> but try to make a putdown to the logic of using a 130V to obtain the
> same benefit.
>
> --

On Dec 10, 4:42=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In the US it's +/- 5%, ie. 114V to 126V.
>
> Maybe that's in your utility area, but not the last two utilities
> areas I've had.

No, that is the US standard.

In article <[email protected]>,
krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:26:31 -0600, [email protected]
>(Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>

[[ sneck ]]

>>>>>Much longer, yes. Bulb life is a function of something like the 16th
>>>>>power of service voltage.
>>
>>>>Eleventh power. not 16th. <grin>
>>>>a 5% decrease in voltage equates to an over 70% increase in bulb life.
>
>>>I've heard everything in between too. I haven't seen any definitive
>>>reference, though.
>
>>I have. <grin> The '11th power' figure comes from a college dorm-mate.
>>He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And his
>>masters thesis was on the subject.
>
>AFOAF? ;-)

Try reading again. :) I knew the guy, personally. His masters thesis was
on the subject of optimizing lightbulb construction. I actually read the
whole thing -- before submission, in fact, as he wanted my editorial help,
and knew I could also follow the math.

The gathered experimental data fit a simple 11th order curve (with an error
under 5 parts in 10,000), over a range of more than three orders of magnitude,
in bulb life. i.e., of the form ax^11+k, no other elements.

> Doesn't much matter which, the point stands.

Actually, it does, when you're justifying running some lighting circuits
off a (slight :) step-down auto-transformer. Accurate predictions of
results _do_ lead to repeat business. :)

>>>>> It's still not saving money, unless there
>>>>>is a cost associated with replacement in addition to the bulb cost.
>>>>
>>>>Depends on what you're measuring. <grin>
>>>>
>>>>"Per lumen of light output", the de-rated bulb is more expensive to
>operate.
>>>
>>>Generally light bulbs are used to make light.
>>
>>yup. But many people (erroneously!) consider _only_ the cost 'per hour of
>>operation', in which case the de-rated bulb is _always_ less expensive _per_
>>_hour_ than the one operated as rated.
>>>
>>>>If the de-rated output is 'adequate', and you're just looking at the cost of
>>>>operating "a bulb", the 130V bulb does save a little (circa 10%) operating
>>>>money. Plus a little more for the reduced replacement frequency. The only
>>>>_real_ advantage comes if the bulb is located somewhere where it is _hard_
>>>>to change -- i.e., with a significant 'labor' cost involved in performing
>>>>the replacement.
>>>
>>>If can get by with less light, use a lower wattage bulb.
>>
>>With standard light-bulbs, that may _not_ be an option. Try and find an
>>off-the-shelf (i.e., that you can by in a grocery, hardware, or home-
>>improvement store) 'lower wattage bulb' with, say 10% less lumens than a
>>standard 100 watt 120V one. Quite simply, they don't exist.
>
>You assume *exact* illumination is required.

No I don't. For many kinds of environments there is a _minimum_ recommended
level of illumination for the task(s) done there. (more below)

For standard incandescent bulbs, going up 'one standard wattage' results
in about 50% more light output. Note; at the _same_ service life, light
output _does_ correlate linearly with power consumption. One gets 50% more
light from a 75 watt bulb, vs a 60 watt one, because of design differences
that result in a 25% _lower_ life expectancy for the 75 watt bulb.

> Like most physiological
>things, vision is logarithmic. There really isn't that much
>difference between a 75W bulb and a 100W bulb that a 100W 130V bulb
>would squeeze between.

_That_ depends on the environment, and the situation. In business settings
you have to have certain minimums to keep OSHA inspectors, insurers, etc.
happy. With built-in fixtures, you can't change the source to work-
surface distance, so all you _can_ play with is the light output of the
bulb. 'Subjective' perception, or not, that circa 50% range between
adjacent standard bulb ratings _is_ enough that the 'legal' requirement
can preclude using the next lower standard rating, but still allow the
use of a, say, de-rated 130V bulb.

>>>is a PITA to get to, spend the money. It really is that simple.
>>
>>On -that-, we are in complete agreement.
>>
>I may do that for my great room can lights and ceiling fans. The fans
>only take a 10' ladder to get to, but the can lights are going to be a
>real PITA. I don't use them because I really don't want to get up
>there until I have to paint the ceiling. ;-)

If they're regular bulbs, in flush-mount ceiling fixtures, there is a
'grabber' pole that makes that height pretty much a non-issue. <grin>

Now a _cord-supported_ can hanging 30+ ft above the nearest floor surface
(and 6-8 ft below the ceiling) is an entirely different story. Can't use
the grabber pole -- the fixture isn't 'stable' enough to grab the bulb,
Have to bring in the portable man lift, move furniture out of the way for
_that_, etc. it can easily take an hour or more, all told, to change a
=single= light bulb. (One can probably, however, change at least 5-6 bulbs
in the same room in 90 minutes total. :)