Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
raising the blade to cut a slot.
The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
Thanks for any advice.
On Fri, 6 Aug 2010 00:05:29 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Kevin wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>>
>>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>>
>> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
>> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
>> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
>> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
>> have that problem.
>>
>
>You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
>how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
>but I'be been wrong before... once...
I think it's about 15". Probably about a foot span from the support
ledges. Doesn't take much to flex 1/2" MDF over that and as far as
I'm concerned when it comes to the TS that insert ought not to budge
if I put any reasonable force on it, because when the sh*t hits the
fan why throw one more variable into the equation?
I didn't notice the flex until using my tenoning jig that rides the
fence. I don't bother clamping the stock in place as it takes too
much time when you have a lot of parts to cut, so you have to put some
significant force to keep it from riding up during the cut. But I
wasn't getting consistent cutting depths and that's when I tested out
pushing down on the insert and could see the sucker flex. If all I
ever did was cut sheet goods I'd never notice and it wouldn't be an
issue.
-Kevin
On Aug 5, 2:23=A0am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> > raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> It may be worth knowing that there have been reports of unsecured plates
> being lifted as the blade cuts and then ejected into the face of the
> operator.
>
Unsecured? As is screwed down to the saw or with a pin in the back to
catch the table top? I don't know of any that are positively attached
to the saw. The pin in the back can simply be a screw. Of course,
when raising the blade to make the slot the plate has to be clamped
down. Am I missing something?
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:47:07 -0400, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:44:38 -0500, "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>>You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
>>>>how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
>>>>but I'be been wrong before... once...
>>>
>>>I think it's about 15". Probably about a foot span from the support
>>>ledges. Doesn't take much to flex 1/2" MDF over that and as far as
>>>I'm concerned when it comes to the TS that insert ought not to budge
>>>if I put any reasonable force on it, because when the sh*t hits the
>>>fan why throw one more variable into the equation?
>>
>>15" wide throat? That's the size of the table on most saws! What sort of saw
>>do you have?
>
>It's 14", ends are semi-circular. It's a Ridgid contractor saw,
>nothing special.
14" front to back? ...or side to side? What's the smallest dimension?
Kevin wrote:
>
> My most extreme example would be with my shop built tenoning jig that
> rides the rip fence, need a lot of down pressure to keep the stock
> from lifting in the cut, and if there's any flex your cut is too deep.
>
So - I have to ask... if it rides the fence, than the throat plate should
really not be a factor. Back to the fact that you don't lock down each cut?
That would be understandable.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Kevin wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 23:14:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On 8/5/10 10:49 PM, Kevin wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>You guys have been a lot of help.
>>>>
>>>>I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>>>
>>>I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
>>>the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
>>>up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
>>>it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
>>>have that problem.
>>>
>>>-Kevin
>>
>>How the heck would it flex too much. There's no pressure put on a ZCI,
>>right? At least, there shouldn't ever be.
>>If everything on your saw is set up true and your blade is flat, you
>>could practically use a piece of clipboard.
>
>
> You need some down pressure on the stock as you are feeding it,
> especially with smaller parts. I always get a chuckle out of the "as
> long as your saw is setup perfectly" as if every piece of wood behaves
> itself perfectly during cuts.
>
> My most extreme example would be with my shop built tenoning jig that
> rides the rip fence, need a lot of down pressure to keep the stock
> from lifting in the cut, and if there's any flex your cut is too deep.
>
> -Kevin
If you need enough pressure to flex the throat plate I suggest you have
your blade sharpened.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Aug 4, 7:32=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
> to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
>
> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
> clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
I just made one out of a leftover plastic computer case and a peice of
bent metal for the splitter - workds great good luck
On Aug 5, 8:52=A0am, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8/5/10 7:12 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Aug 5, 2:23 am, "Jeff Gorman"<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >> <[email protected]> =A0wrote
>
> >>> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> >>> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> >> It may be worth knowing that there have been reports of unsecured plat=
es
> >> being lifted as the blade cuts and then ejected into the face of the
> >> operator.
>
> > Unsecured? =A0As is screwed down to the saw or with a pin in the back t=
o
> > catch the table top? =A0I don't know of any that are positively attache=
d
> > to the saw. =A0The pin in the back can simply be a screw. =A0Of course,
> > when raising the blade to make the slot the plate has to be clamped
> > down. =A0Am I missing something?
>
> No, you're not.
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
as far as the hold down all you have to do is attatsh s clip or metal
plate to the rear with a screw. There must be enough clearance - maybe
12 inch or so - for it to to slide in easily when you drop the plate
in very easy but a holdown clip is for certain a good and safe idea.
Don't forget the splitter which should be as thick as the blade andas
high as most of the wood that you will cut. It has to be in line with
the blade. Good luck
On Aug 5, 4:42=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> You guys have been a lot of help.
>
> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>
> Thanx a lot.
Go to your local solid surface fabricator and ask for a vanity sink
cut-out. Makes a great insert.
On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>You guys have been a lot of help.
>
>I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
have that problem.
-Kevin
On Aug 4, 10:32=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
> to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
>
> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
> clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
By laminated hardboard I presume you mean an MDF substrate with a top
layer of high pressure laminate, (Formica Wilsonart etc). It would
make an excellent throat plate providing you can get the thickness you
need. You can also laminate your own plywood with PLam.
Joe G
Kevin wrote:
> I didn't notice the flex until using my tenoning jig that rides the
> fence. I don't bother clamping the stock in place as it takes too
> much time when you have a lot of parts to cut, so you have to put some
> significant force to keep it from riding up during the cut. But I
> wasn't getting consistent cutting depths and that's when I tested out
> pushing down on the insert and could see the sucker flex. If all I
> ever did was cut sheet goods I'd never notice and it wouldn't be an
> issue.
>
Interesting. I admit - I was thinking sheet goods or flat stock cuts. Had
not considered tennon jigs. But I'm bound and determined to save face from
my obvious lack of thought, and lay it back on you by telling you that you
screwed up by not locking in your stock...
Still - without having tested this configuration, I still find myself
surprised that even your tennoning work created any noticable flex. Just
shows to go ya - ya come across something different every day.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Kevin wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>
>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>
> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
> have that problem.
>
You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
but I'be been wrong before... once...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote
> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> raising the blade to cut a slot.
It may be worth knowing that there have been reports of unsecured plates
being lifted as the blade cuts and then ejected into the face of the
operator.
Jeff
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net
On 8/10/10 11:10 AM, Kevin wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:47:58 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> If you are needing downward pressure on a jig or stock, enough to bend a
>> 1/2" MDF ZCI, there is either something very wrong with your saw or you
>> are doing something very wrong.
>
> Okay I dare you or anyone else that's said I'm doing something unsafe
> to cut a piece of 1/2" MDF that is 14" long and 2.5" wide (The width
> of my insert on the right side of the blade), support it at the ends
> and then try to flex it with ONE FINGER.
>
> Then try the same thing with 1/2" Baltic Birch ply. You can use your
> whole hand this time.
>
> Then come back here and tell me I'm doing something wrong by using the
> one that doesn't flex.
>
>
>
> -Kevin
I didn't say you were doing anything wrong by using the one that didn't
flex, but nice attempt at trying to change the subject without anyone
noticing. :-p
What we're saying is that any operation (and specifically your tenoning
technique) which causes you to push the stock downward to the table and
subsequently, the blade, is not only bad woodworking technique, but very
dangerous technique.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:47:58 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>If you are needing downward pressure on a jig or stock, enough to bend a
>1/2" MDF ZCI, there is either something very wrong with your saw or you
>are doing something very wrong.
Okay I dare you or anyone else that's said I'm doing something unsafe
to cut a piece of 1/2" MDF that is 14" long and 2.5" wide (The width
of my insert on the right side of the blade), support it at the ends
and then try to flex it with ONE FINGER.
Then try the same thing with 1/2" Baltic Birch ply. You can use your
whole hand this time.
Then come back here and tell me I'm doing something wrong by using the
one that doesn't flex.
-Kevin
On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:44:38 -0500, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
>>>how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
>>>but I'be been wrong before... once...
>>
>>I think it's about 15". Probably about a foot span from the support
>>ledges. Doesn't take much to flex 1/2" MDF over that and as far as
>>I'm concerned when it comes to the TS that insert ought not to budge
>>if I put any reasonable force on it, because when the sh*t hits the
>>fan why throw one more variable into the equation?
>
>15" wide throat? That's the size of the table on most saws! What sort of saw
>do you have?
It's 14", ends are semi-circular. It's a Ridgid contractor saw,
nothing special.
On Aug 5, 3:23=A0am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> > raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> It may be worth knowing that there have been reports of unsecured plates
> being lifted as the blade cuts and then ejected into the face of the
> operator.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> email : Username is amgron
> ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
Park the fence over the plate just to the side of the blade
and raise away. Even then, stoop down to place yourself
lower than the saw top and slightly to the side. Haven't
had a plate thrown yet, but why take a gamble?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
> to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
>
> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
> clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
I use some left over manufactured flooring (like Pergo) Tough stuff. I drill
and tap for setscrews to adjust the leveling. WW
On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 22:19:34 -0400, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 6 Aug 2010 00:05:29 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Kevin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>>>
>>>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>>>
>>> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
>>> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
>>> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
>>> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
>>> have that problem.
>>>
>>
>>You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
>>how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
>>but I'be been wrong before... once...
>
>I think it's about 15". Probably about a foot span from the support
>ledges. Doesn't take much to flex 1/2" MDF over that and as far as
>I'm concerned when it comes to the TS that insert ought not to budge
>if I put any reasonable force on it, because when the sh*t hits the
>fan why throw one more variable into the equation?
15" wide throat? That's the size of the table on most saws! What sort of saw
do you have?
>I didn't notice the flex until using my tenoning jig that rides the
>fence. I don't bother clamping the stock in place as it takes too
>much time when you have a lot of parts to cut, so you have to put some
>significant force to keep it from riding up during the cut. But I
>wasn't getting consistent cutting depths and that's when I tested out
>pushing down on the insert and could see the sucker flex. If all I
>ever did was cut sheet goods I'd never notice and it wouldn't be an
>issue.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
> to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
>
> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
> clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
Assuming what you are talking about is Melamine shelving, I doubt it would
be very good. Typically Melamine shelving is made with OSB and or particle
board.
Melemine on MDF would be much better.
[email protected] wrote:
> Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
> to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
>
> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
> clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
No reasons.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 01:13:24 +0000 (UTC),
[email protected] (Larry W) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Morgans <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> I didn't notice the flex until using my tenoning jig that rides the
>>> fence. I don't bother clamping the stock in place as it takes too
>>> much time when you have a lot of parts to cut, so you have to put some
>>> significant force to keep it from riding up during the cut. But I
>>> wasn't getting consistent cutting depths and that's when I tested out
>>> pushing down on the insert and could see the sucker flex.
>>
>>I put it to you like this; if you continue to improperly use a jig (as far
>>as I am concernened, not making use of a clamp constitutes improper use)
>>then almost any material is going to have some flex. Reinforce the insert
>>with a rib alongside the blade. Either that or get a metal insert made with
>>a sacrificial wood edge added by the blade.
>>
>>I would urge you to reconsider using the clamp on a tenioning jig. Take the
>>time to be safe and accurate. One day, that will bite you.
It may not be clear that unlike a cast iron type jig that rides in the
slot that just has a face and a clamp, my jig has a stop at the back
edge so it's being held against two faces. My hand is way above the
cut. I consider it to be as safe as a cut with my cross cut sled.
>>--
>>Jim in NC
>>
>>
>
>To the OP: Check your saw setup as previous posters have advised for
>fence being parallel. And, consider modifying or making a new
>tenoning jig with a base long enough so that the fore & aft ends are
>always resting on the cast iron table, not on the insert.
It's not an alignment issue, the stock rises up before reaching the
back teeth. The jig doesn't flex the insert, the stock does. I work
with narrow stock, sometimes it might only be 3/4" wide. That makes
any downward pressure into essentially a point load. It also means
there isn't a lot of friction between the stock and the jig due to the
low surface area, and of course it doesn't weigh very much either, so
I have to supply the force. I use the same jig with a 45 degree block
added for miter splines, and I'd never had it rise up in that
circumstance, I don't know if that's just due to the extra weight and
friction or the different grain direction.
-Kevin
On 8/4/10 3:50 PM, Leon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
>> to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
>>
>> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
>> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>>
>> The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
>> clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
>>
>> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Assuming what you are talking about is Melamine shelving, I doubt it would
> be very good. Typically Melamine shelving is made with OSB and or particle
> board.
>
> Melemine on MDF would be much better.
>
Yeah, MDF would work great, but definitely not the chip-n-spit boards
I've seen in prepacked garage shelving units.
I wonder if there are standards and/or a reference to such standards for
all the "termite vomit" (LOVE that term) products out there.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8/4/10 3:50 PM, Leon wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Can laminated hardboard, the kind used commonly for shelving, be used
>>> to make zero clearance throat plates for a table saw.
>>>
>>> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
>>> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>>>
>>> The smooth laminate seems like it would be suitable to make a zero
>>> clearance plate, but are there any reasons not to try this?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any advice.
>>
>> Assuming what you are talking about is Melamine shelving, I doubt it
>> would
>> be very good. Typically Melamine shelving is made with OSB and or
>> particle
>> board.
>>
>> Melemine on MDF would be much better.
>>
>
> Yeah, MDF would work great, but definitely not the chip-n-spit boards I've
> seen in prepacked garage shelving units.
>
> I wonder if there are standards and/or a reference to such standards for
> all the "termite vomit" (LOVE that term) products out there.
Termite mounds are made from termite vomit. You could just about run a Mack
truck into a termite mound and the truck would lose. The mounds also have
central heating and AC. The mounds are also tourist attractions in Oz. So,
way better than chip 'n spit boards.
On 8/5/10 7:12 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 5, 2:23 am, "Jeff Gorman"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
>>> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>>
>> It may be worth knowing that there have been reports of unsecured plates
>> being lifted as the blade cuts and then ejected into the face of the
>> operator.
>>
> Unsecured? As is screwed down to the saw or with a pin in the back to
> catch the table top? I don't know of any that are positively attached
> to the saw. The pin in the back can simply be a screw. Of course,
> when raising the blade to make the slot the plate has to be clamped
> down. Am I missing something?
No, you're not.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 8/5/10 2:40 PM, Leon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:0cd2400b-ee9b-49fd-b546-ae83df40bf8a@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 2:23 am, "Jeff Gorman"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
>>> raising the blade to cut a slot.
>>
>> It may be worth knowing that there have been reports of unsecured plates
>> being lifted as the blade cuts and then ejected into the face of the
>> operator.
>>
> Unsecured? As is screwed down to the saw or with a pin in the back to
> catch the table top? I don't know of any that are positively attached
> to the saw.
>
> The older Cradtsman TS required the loosening of a front countersunk Philips
> head machine screw. When loosened a key hole slot in the front of the insert
> would allow the insert to slide up and forward and finally up again and off
> the table. The back end of the insert had a bracket that slid under the
> table top.
>
My Delta has a machine screw on the front end and a nipple on the back.
Guess my point is that it's kind of irrelevant to what material is being
used.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 8/5/10 4:05 PM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Aug 5, 4:42 pm, "[email protected]"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>
>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>>
>> Thanx a lot.
>
> Go to your local solid surface fabricator and ask for a vanity sink
> cut-out. Makes a great insert.
They make great lots-of-other-things, too.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 8/5/10 10:49 PM, Kevin wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>
>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>
> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
> have that problem.
>
> -Kevin
How the heck would it flex too much. There's no pressure put on a ZCI,
right? At least, there shouldn't ever be.
If everything on your saw is set up true and your blade is flat, you
could practically use a piece of clipboard.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 08/05/2010 11:14 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/5/10 10:49 PM, Kevin wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>>
>>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>>
>> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
>> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
>> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
>> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
>> have that problem.
>>
>> -Kevin
>
> How the heck would it flex too much. There's no pressure put on a ZCI,
> right? At least, there shouldn't ever be.
> If everything on your saw is set up true and your blade is flat, you
> could practically use a piece of clipboard.
My main ZCI is phenolic, but I've made a bunch of inserts from 1/2" MDF for cutting various
width dadoes and I've never had a problem with them flexing or sagging.
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
mtnbikeddie wrote:
...
> as far as the hold down all you have to do is attatsh s clip or metal
> plate to the rear with a screw. There must be enough clearance - maybe
> 12 inch or so - for it to to slide in easily when you drop the plate
> in very easy but a holdown clip is for certain a good and safe idea.
...
Perhaps, but I've never seen one and have never heard of an incident the
insert being "thrown".
--
On 8/6/2010 2:20 PM, dpb wrote:
> mtnbikeddie wrote:
> ...
>
>> as far as the hold down all you have to do is attatsh s clip or metal
>> plate to the rear with a screw. There must be enough clearance - maybe
>> 12 inch or so - for it to to slide in easily when you drop the plate
>> in very easy but a holdown clip is for certain a good and safe idea.
>
> ...
>
> Perhaps, but I've never seen one and have never heard of an incident the
> insert being "thrown".
Still, why tempt fate? The one time it happens it's gonna clip the
mother-in-law in the back of the head and she's going to claim that you
did it deliberately and there's the end of domestic tranquility for the
next decade or so.
J. Clarke wrote:
> On 8/6/2010 2:20 PM, dpb wrote:
>> mtnbikeddie wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> as far as the hold down all you have to do is attatsh s clip or metal
>>> plate to the rear with a screw. There must be enough clearance - maybe
>>> 12 inch or so - for it to to slide in easily when you drop the plate
>>> in very easy but a holdown clip is for certain a good and safe idea.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Perhaps, but I've never seen one and have never heard of an incident the
>> insert being "thrown".
>
> Still, why tempt fate? ...
Some odds are so long as to make them essentially non-existent
likelihoods. Out of all the PM-66's and Unisaurs that afaik have never
had a single one w/ a insert plate lock mechanism it seems even if it
were a occurring but rare event it would have surfaced sometime in the
last 70-80 years or so given the number of opportunities. Yet I'd never
even heard it broached as a possibility what more an event until a few
posters up...
$0.001...
--
On Fri, 06 Aug 2010 15:25:57 -0500, dpb wrote:
> Some odds are so long as to make them essentially non-existent
> likelihoods.
That was my reaction as well. My 1948 Delta is the only saw I've owned
that had a clip in the back. The manufacturers must have since concluded
that it added nothing to safety - and if the lawyers let them get away
with it they were probably right :-).
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8/6/2010 2:20 PM, dpb wrote:
>> mtnbikeddie wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> as far as the hold down all you have to do is attatsh s clip or metal
>>> plate to the rear with a screw. There must be enough clearance - maybe
>>> 12 inch or so - for it to to slide in easily when you drop the plate
>>> in very easy but a holdown clip is for certain a good and safe idea.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Perhaps, but I've never seen one and have never heard of an incident the
>> insert being "thrown".
>
> Still, why tempt fate? The one time it happens it's gonna clip the
> mother-in-law in the back of the head and she's going to claim that you
> did it deliberately and there's the end of domestic tranquility for the
> next decade or so.
>
Why look on the downside? Upside is domestic tranquility forever.
On 8/8/2010 7:02 AM, Nova wrote:
> Kevin wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 23:14:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 8/5/10 10:49 PM, Kevin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>>>>
>>>> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
>>>> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
>>>> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
>>>> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
>>>> have that problem.
>>>>
>>>> -Kevin
>>>
>>> How the heck would it flex too much. There's no pressure put on a ZCI,
>>> right? At least, there shouldn't ever be.
>>> If everything on your saw is set up true and your blade is flat, you
>>> could practically use a piece of clipboard.
>>
>>
>> You need some down pressure on the stock as you are feeding it,
>> especially with smaller parts. I always get a chuckle out of the "as
>> long as your saw is setup perfectly" as if every piece of wood behaves
>> itself perfectly during cuts.
>> My most extreme example would be with my shop built tenoning jig that
>> rides the rip fence, need a lot of down pressure to keep the stock
>> from lifting in the cut, and if there's any flex your cut is too deep.
>>
>> -Kevin
>
> If you need enough pressure to flex the throat plate I suggest you have
> your blade sharpened.
Also worth looking at the alignment of the fence--the blade should be
drawing the work down, not pushing it up--if it's pushing up then the
fence may be slighly misaligned with the back toward the blade so that
the stock is getting pushed into the rising teeth.
On 8/7/10 9:07 PM, Kevin wrote:
>>> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
>>> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
>>> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
>>> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
>>> have that problem.
>>>
>>> -Kevin
>>
>> How the heck would it flex too much. There's no pressure put on a ZCI,
>> right? At least, there shouldn't ever be.
>> If everything on your saw is set up true and your blade is flat, you
>> could practically use a piece of clipboard.
>
> You need some down pressure on the stock as you are feeding it,
> especially with smaller parts. I always get a chuckle out of the "as
> long as your saw is setup perfectly" as if every piece of wood behaves
> itself perfectly during cuts.
>
> My most extreme example would be with my shop built tenoning jig that
> rides the rip fence, need a lot of down pressure to keep the stock
> from lifting in the cut, and if there's any flex your cut is too deep.
>
> -Kevin
If you are needing downward pressure on a jig or stock, enough to bend a
1/2" MDF ZCI, there is either something very wrong with your saw or you
are doing something very wrong.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 8/7/10 9:19 PM, Kevin wrote:
>> You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
>> how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
>> but I'be been wrong before... once...
>
> I think it's about 15". Probably about a foot span from the support
> ledges. Doesn't take much to flex 1/2" MDF over that and as far as
> I'm concerned when it comes to the TS that insert ought not to budge
> if I put any reasonable force on it, because when the sh*t hits the
> fan why throw one more variable into the equation?
>
> I didn't notice the flex until using my tenoning jig that rides the
> fence. I don't bother clamping the stock in place as it takes too
> much time when you have a lot of parts to cut, so you have to put some
> significant force to keep it from riding up during the cut. But I
> wasn't getting consistent cutting depths and that's when I tested out
> pushing down on the insert and could see the sucker flex. If all I
> ever did was cut sheet goods I'd never notice and it wouldn't be an
> issue.
>
>
> -Kevin
Your problem lies in your technique. If you are too lazy to clamp or
hold the stock securely to your jig, that's where the danger is. If you're
pushing the stock down to the table hard enough to bend 1/2 mdf over a
12" span, that is poor and dangerous technique.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
In article <[email protected]>,
Morgans <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> I didn't notice the flex until using my tenoning jig that rides the
>> fence. I don't bother clamping the stock in place as it takes too
>> much time when you have a lot of parts to cut, so you have to put some
>> significant force to keep it from riding up during the cut. But I
>> wasn't getting consistent cutting depths and that's when I tested out
>> pushing down on the insert and could see the sucker flex.
>
>I put it to you like this; if you continue to improperly use a jig (as far
>as I am concernened, not making use of a clamp constitutes improper use)
>then almost any material is going to have some flex. Reinforce the insert
>with a rib alongside the blade. Either that or get a metal insert made with
>a sacrificial wood edge added by the blade.
>
>I would urge you to reconsider using the clamp on a tenioning jig. Take the
>time to be safe and accurate. One day, that will bite you.
>--
>Jim in NC
>
>
To the OP: Check your saw setup as previous posters have advised for
fence being parallel. And, consider modifying or making a new
tenoning jig with a base long enough so that the fore & aft ends are
always resting on the cast iron table, not on the insert.
--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0cd2400b-ee9b-49fd-b546-ae83df40bf8a@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 5, 2:23 am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I've made throat plates from plywood by cutting them to fit and then
> > raising the blade to cut a slot.
>
> It may be worth knowing that there have been reports of unsecured plates
> being lifted as the blade cuts and then ejected into the face of the
> operator.
>
Unsecured? As is screwed down to the saw or with a pin in the back to
catch the table top? I don't know of any that are positively attached
to the saw.
The older Cradtsman TS required the loosening of a front countersunk Philips
head machine screw. When loosened a key hole slot in the front of the insert
would allow the insert to slide up and forward and finally up again and off
the table. The back end of the insert had a bracket that slid under the
table top.
Kevin wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:01:13 -0500, "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>14" front to back? ...or side to side? What's the smallest dimension?
>
>
> Front to back. Side to side is more like 4" but there are no supports
> on the sides, only at the front and back.
>
> -Kevin
If it the typical Ridgid table saw insert the supports are on the sides
about 3" from the front and the back leaving about 8.5" between the
leveling screws.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:23:54 -0400, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:01:13 -0500, "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:47:07 -0400, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:44:38 -0500, "[email protected]"
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
>>>>>>how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
>>>>>>but I'be been wrong before... once...
>>>>>
>>>>>I think it's about 15". Probably about a foot span from the support
>>>>>ledges. Doesn't take much to flex 1/2" MDF over that and as far as
>>>>>I'm concerned when it comes to the TS that insert ought not to budge
>>>>>if I put any reasonable force on it, because when the sh*t hits the
>>>>>fan why throw one more variable into the equation?
>>>>
>>>>15" wide throat? That's the size of the table on most saws! What sort of saw
>>>>do you have?
>>>
>>>It's 14", ends are semi-circular. It's a Ridgid contractor saw,
>>>nothing special.
>>
>>14" front to back? ...or side to side? What's the smallest dimension?
>
>Front to back. Side to side is more like 4" but there are no supports
>on the sides, only at the front and back.
Ah, this is making a lot more sense now. When you were asked how _wide_ the
throat was and replied 15" it threw me off completely. I was imagining a
man-hole sized plate. ;-) Thanks.
Kevin wrote:
> I happen to have shot some video of a project and I have me in action
> using the jig. So here is a still frame of the horrible accident
> waiting to happen. Please cover the eyes of any small children or
> shop dogs so they don't have to live with the shock.
>
> http://www.krtwood.com/tenonjig.jpg
Looks fine to me. You might consider gluing some sandpaper to your jig
so your work won't easily slide. Also, either a toggle clamp or those
handy spring clamps will be fast and effective.
--
Jack
Got Change: Global Warming ======> Global Fraud!
http://jbstein.com
> Does it look like I'm pushing down hard? Cause I'm not. But if that
> had been an MDF insert the cut depths would have been inconsistent.
> Some amount of down pressure is a normal part of most operations at
> the table saw, you just don't think about it. Don't try running some
> 1/8" plywood through the saw without pushing down on it. It'll bounce
> like crazy and then almost certainly kick back. Whatever force you
> apply is NOTHING compared to the force the blade can generate into the
> table. It's just common sense to make the insert as rigid as you can
> practically make it. MDF is a poor choice.
>
> -Kevin
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:01:13 -0500, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:47:07 -0400, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:44:38 -0500, "[email protected]"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>You really found that 1/2" flexed too much? How wide is your throat - or
>>>>>how long? I can't imagine a throat that is so big that 1/2" would flex....
>>>>>but I'be been wrong before... once...
>>>>
>>>>I think it's about 15". Probably about a foot span from the support
>>>>ledges. Doesn't take much to flex 1/2" MDF over that and as far as
>>>>I'm concerned when it comes to the TS that insert ought not to budge
>>>>if I put any reasonable force on it, because when the sh*t hits the
>>>>fan why throw one more variable into the equation?
>>>
>>>15" wide throat? That's the size of the table on most saws! What sort of saw
>>>do you have?
>>
>>It's 14", ends are semi-circular. It's a Ridgid contractor saw,
>>nothing special.
>
>14" front to back? ...or side to side? What's the smallest dimension?
Front to back. Side to side is more like 4" but there are no supports
on the sides, only at the front and back.
-Kevin
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:17:46 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 8/10/10 11:10 AM, Kevin wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:47:58 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If you are needing downward pressure on a jig or stock, enough to bend a
>>> 1/2" MDF ZCI, there is either something very wrong with your saw or you
>>> are doing something very wrong.
>>
>> Okay I dare you or anyone else that's said I'm doing something unsafe
>> to cut a piece of 1/2" MDF that is 14" long and 2.5" wide (The width
>> of my insert on the right side of the blade), support it at the ends
>> and then try to flex it with ONE FINGER.
>>
>> Then try the same thing with 1/2" Baltic Birch ply. You can use your
>> whole hand this time.
>>
>> Then come back here and tell me I'm doing something wrong by using the
>> one that doesn't flex.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Kevin
>
>I didn't say you were doing anything wrong by using the one that didn't
>flex, but nice attempt at trying to change the subject without anyone
>noticing. :-p
I'm staying focused on the original point, that 1/2" MDF is a little
flimsy for this application, rather than the example I used where it
became evident to me that was the case. You may find yourself in a
different situation where it comes into play. How much do you save
using MDF instead of baltic birch ply? 10 cents? The OEM insert is
steel and they ribbed the hell out of it. They could have made it out
of plastic and saved some money, and you know that'd make the
accountants happy. But they didn't. For some reason they thought it
was important that it be very rigid and I've never seen a saw that
came with one that wasn't.
>What we're saying is that any operation (and specifically your tenoning
>technique) which causes you to push the stock downward to the table and
>subsequently, the blade, is not only bad woodworking technique, but very
>dangerous technique.
I happen to have shot some video of a project and I have me in action
using the jig. So here is a still frame of the horrible accident
waiting to happen. Please cover the eyes of any small children or
shop dogs so they don't have to live with the shock.
http://www.krtwood.com/tenonjig.jpg
Does it look like I'm pushing down hard? Cause I'm not. But if that
had been an MDF insert the cut depths would have been inconsistent.
Some amount of down pressure is a normal part of most operations at
the table saw, you just don't think about it. Don't try running some
1/8" plywood through the saw without pushing down on it. It'll bounce
like crazy and then almost certainly kick back. Whatever force you
apply is NOTHING compared to the force the blade can generate into the
table. It's just common sense to make the insert as rigid as you can
practically make it. MDF is a poor choice.
-Kevin
"Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote
> I didn't notice the flex until using my tenoning jig that rides the
> fence. I don't bother clamping the stock in place as it takes too
> much time when you have a lot of parts to cut, so you have to put some
> significant force to keep it from riding up during the cut. But I
> wasn't getting consistent cutting depths and that's when I tested out
> pushing down on the insert and could see the sucker flex.
I put it to you like this; if you continue to improperly use a jig (as far
as I am concernened, not making use of a clamp constitutes improper use)
then almost any material is going to have some flex. Reinforce the insert
with a rib alongside the blade. Either that or get a metal insert made with
a sacrificial wood edge added by the blade.
I would urge you to reconsider using the clamp on a tenioning jig. Take the
time to be safe and accurate. One day, that will bite you.
--
Jim in NC
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote
> Perhaps, but I've never seen one and have never heard of an incident the
> insert being "thrown".
Me neither. The only way it could happen is not having it secured while the
initial cut through was being made, or
if it was made so loose that it could rattle around in the pocket.
--
Jim in NC
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Perhaps, but I've never seen one and have never heard of an incident the
>> insert being "thrown".
>
> Me neither. The only way it could happen is not having it secured while
> the initial cut through was being made, or
> if it was made so loose that it could rattle around in the pocket.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
Blades do become non-flat, often during a cutting operation and this is
especially likely with a think kerf blade if it gets hot. Then it starts to
widen the insert slot and....
On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 23:14:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 8/5/10 10:49 PM, Kevin wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys have been a lot of help.
>>>
>>> I'll use MDF with a laminate and I'll secure it to the top.
>>
>> I would just add that 1/2" MDF will flex too much. I don't know if
>> the laminate would be enough to strengthen it, probably so. I ended
>> up gluing some hardwood strips on either side of the blade to stiffen
>> it up, and made all the ones after that out of plywood that didn't
>> have that problem.
>>
>> -Kevin
>
>How the heck would it flex too much. There's no pressure put on a ZCI,
>right? At least, there shouldn't ever be.
>If everything on your saw is set up true and your blade is flat, you
>could practically use a piece of clipboard.
You need some down pressure on the stock as you are feeding it,
especially with smaller parts. I always get a chuckle out of the "as
long as your saw is setup perfectly" as if every piece of wood behaves
itself perfectly during cuts.
My most extreme example would be with my shop built tenoning jig that
rides the rip fence, need a lot of down pressure to keep the stock
from lifting in the cut, and if there's any flex your cut is too deep.
-Kevin