I must be getting better at WW...

On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
> "<<<__ Bøb __>>>" wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2/21/2012 9:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
>>>> drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
>>>> said I could.
>>>>
>>>> Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
>>>> posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
>>>> laminated base 12" long.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
>>>> I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).
>>>>
>>>> I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
>>>> how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
>>>> dimensioned drawing! ; )
>>>
>>> Get used to it Bill. Wait until you get more tools, and develop more
>>> skills!
>>>
>>
>>
>> What did you expect ???
>
> I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
> holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!
>
> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)

>
> Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
> dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
> even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the dowels,
> but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a good way
> to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
> This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school
> gym teacher)!

Some one inch dowels are as likely to be over as under 1"

On 2/21/2012 9:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
>> holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!
>>
>
> You have a long way to go Bill. This person has neither the knowledge nor
> the capability, and you expect them to deliver you the materials? Not gonna
> happen. Your three holes would probably have turned into a 20 post thread
> here, so the 10 minute thought is moot anyway. Just go get the materials
> and show your wife and her friend how cool you and your new drill press
> really are. Hell - enjoy that thing now that you own it!
>
>
Totally agree, you want to control what materials will be used. I once
had scrap wood delivered that had all kinds of debris embedded in the
surface.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:17:47 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/23/2012 1:42 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/22/2012 11:44 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> Yes! non reusable HOWEVER you are not going to be changing grits, thse
>> tools are for rough shaping. You are going to finish sand with finish
>> sander or by hand.
>>
>> The disk that comes on it will last a very long time.
>>
>>
>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>
>Thank you for the tips!
>
>
>>
>> By comparison the 6" disk will be less useful
>>
>>
But better aluminum than zinc or "mystery metal" - AKA pot metal.

Bill wrote:
> A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
> drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
> said I could.
>
> Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
> posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
> laminated base 12" long.
>
> Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
> I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).
>
> I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
> how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
> dimensioned drawing! ; )

Get used to it Bill. Wait until you get more tools, and develop more
skills!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 2/28/2012 6:39 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:
>
>> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
>> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.
>
> Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
> disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
> aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
> issue?
>


I have a Delta 1/2" hp 12" iron disk sander. I have come close to
stalling it but then again I don't pussy foot around when sanding. I
would not worry so much about heat as not having the mass to plow
through the process. I use my disk sand strictly for shaping.
============================================================
I was working in a place for a time that had a 36" disk sander. It had heavy
cast iron table that was adjustable for height and tilt via geared crank. it
also had a built in dust collector. We kept a 36 grit disk on it. This was
our roughing machine. It would eat wood at an amazing rate. I went to grind
a piece of steel on it one time. Not wanting to start a fire, I disconnected
the hose to the collection bag. The blower was built in but I thought that
running it for a few minutes would blow the dust out. I was wrong. I was
grinding for about 15 seconds when the leftovers in the blower caught fire.
It was shooting flame about 6 feet horizontally across the shop. My first
thought was to turn it off but smoldering in the blower might damage it
worse. I just let it run until It burned out. A few minutes later, the boss
walks in and ask if something is burning. I said "Yes, but it's under
control". He just shrugged and walked out. From then on, if I was going to
grind steel on that thing, I took an air hose and made sure nothing was in
the pipe. I always thought that I would like to have that machine but, fact
is, I'd never have a need for it but I just like nice machines and that one
was really built. It also weighed about 3/4 ton.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
> dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly even
> be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the dowels, but
> I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a good way to make
> up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
> This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school gym
> teacher)!
>
If you want a good hole to fit a dowel in, don't use a spade bit. Unless
you don't care about appearance and fit. Invest in a good forstner bit.
That combined with a drill press will allow a good hole.

No dowel is completely round. If the wood is hard enough, you can force a
dowel into it. If the dowel is hard and the wood is soft, the dowel can
eventually break the wood. If you want the best fir, drill a hole slightly
smaller than the dowel. Then trim the dowel to fit. Use some good glue and
make sure everything is snug and fitted before the glue dries.

I don't know how pretty this has to be. But I used to work with an old
timer who used to use dowels extensively. And since he was so cheap
(frugal?) he would use old broom handles. It was amazing what he built with
those old broom handles. Interestingly enough, a lot of broom handles were
more round and consistent than the dowels available at the lumber yard.
That may be different now. But back then, the broom stick dowels ruled! And
they fit the holes drilled well too.

I remember once he was building a bed and he dowelled the head board to the
bed with dowels. I protested that it would not look right with painted
dowels and stained wood. He handed me the cut pieces of broom stick and
told me to sand off the paint. I did and the bed went together and looked
great.

I must of seen him use a couple hundred dowels like this. Almost all of
them from the fabled broom stick stock.

Remember, to make a good hole, use a good bit. Get a small file and/or a
diamond home to keep the edge of the bit sharp. And keep your good bits
hidden away so folks can't come in and "borrow" it. Keep the bit sharp and
dry. You jobs will go much better with sharp tooling.

Another common practice is to charge for the tool needed to do the job. Buy
the bit and charge it to him. Just let him know that you need a good bit to
do the job properly. Another common practice for dowel construction is to
drill the hole in some scrap stock and bring it to the lumber yard. Make
sure the dowels fit the hole properly.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
> see whether that is in the budget.

Got a Lowe's around? (You probably do.) They've got a Porter Cable
Forstner set for $20 that includes a 1" bit. It's a pretty decent kit,
especially considering the price.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Bill" offered up this bit of pseudo woodworking wisdom
>
> Thank you for the tip! I suspect a Forstner bit may not leave as good of a
> glueing surface as a twist drill, but maybe good enough. I'm not sure. I
> have no experience using Forstner bits, and I'm only guessing.
> Surely a lot better than a spade bit, which was my first alternative
> choice!
>
Bill, Bill, Billlll...., Deep breath now. Forstner bits are DESIGNED to
cut wood. That is their purpose in life. To cut holes that have a crisp,
sharp edge to them. Something that looks goods and performs well. Twist
drills, on the other hand, are designed to cut metal. And then they only do
a good job is sharp and are drilled with sufficient power, stability, etc.
Notice I said SHARP. Most twist drills are not sharp. You can use a twist
drill to drill wood. And if the wood is not too soft, you can probably get
away with it. But is not the optimal cutting tool for the job. And you
won't have a flat bottom, thereby weakening the glue joint.

Besides, it may be difficult to drill a good hole with a 1 inch twist drill.
I remember working with metal and needing to drill some large holes. I
ended up going to hole saws and squirting lots of cutting fluid on the
process. The bigger the hole, the more problems. Even in a drill press.
In fact, drilling holes above a certain size are dangerous unless performed
in a drill press.

There is a reason why I mentioned getting a forstner bit. It is because
that is what is used for this kind of thing. And if you were going to use
such a bit on metal, your drill press probably doesn't have a speed slow
enough to use it. And you chuck may not be big enough to even put the thing
into the drill press.

Buy a forstner bit. Use it. You need a set of a few common sizes any way.
You will the only person I ever talked to who got a drill press and did not
bother to buy some bits for it. Doncha know?? Big power tools are the
gateway drug. First you buy the tool, then...

Common strategy on this sort of thing is to buy an economical set. Then buy
good ones of the ones that you use most often. And remember to get
something to dress up the edges to keep this thing sharp. It only works
well if it has something of an edge on it.

If you don't do this, you work will suffer. You went to a lot of time and
trouble to buy that drill press and mount it on its custom base. What is
your excuse for not using it properly? (Or buying it presents?) And
regardless of your wife's perspective, if you do lousy work, everybody will
be pissed off at you. And we will think of you as a woodworking WIMP. ;-)

Man up, buy the damn bits, get on with your life.

</end of rant>

On 2/22/2012 5:38 PM, Bill wrote:
> Michael Joel wrote:
>
>> I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of
>> hand. Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment
>> to be serious?).
>>
>> It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
>> holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could
>> just cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge
>> in to anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in.
>> Brush/spray with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids :) ) and
>> done. Probably could use scrap wood for most of it.
>>
>> Just my opinion
>> Mike
>
>
> Yes, I recognize(d) that it is overdone. I went in accordance with the
> basic design given to me (that I did Not Request). I would suggest a
> different design (2by-lumber) that I think makes more sense (ordinary
> plywood irritates me physically until it out-gasses). So far, my wife is
> is not interested in discussing a different design.
>
> Concerning the moment where my wife asked, "Do you have a drill press?",
> the smart answer is evidently, "No". : )
>
> Maybe I'll put something together at my leisure.
>

Good idea - something basic and simple, then give it to your wife as a
"peace offering" - no charge to the school (make sure it's understood
this is a one-time deal).

"Ralph Compton" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Mike,
>
> I suspect the "customer" would be delighted with most anything as long
> as it wasn't much more than she thought she was going to have to spend
> to begin with.
>
> But I think that instead of getting dowels I would get some straight
> 2x4, which I would cut down to 1x1, and using a router table, make my
> own dowels. Of course I'd have to pick up a router, router table, and
> 1/2" roundover bit, to do it but what the hey, if it makes the wife
> happy I'm willing to sacrifice . . .
>
> And a piece of 2x12 would make a nice sturdy base but I'd want to
> resaw it to 1" which would require I get that bandsaw I was looking at
> . . .
>
> And, of course, I'd need to plane down the 1x12 to make it look nice .
> . . dang, I guess I do need a planer too!
>
> Ralph
>

Don't forget that planing isn't always the final surface, so you'll need
a good quality Festool sander and some good sandpaper. That's always a
messy process, so you need the sander and dust extractor kit. ;-)

Don't even ask about paint brushes.

Puckdropper

--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill wrote:

>
> I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
> holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!
>

You have a long way to go Bill. This person has neither the knowledge nor
the capability, and you expect them to deliver you the materials? Not gonna
happen. Your three holes would probably have turned into a 20 post thread
here, so the 10 minute thought is moot anyway. Just go get the materials
and show your wife and her friend how cool you and your new drill press
really are. Hell - enjoy that thing now that you own it!


> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
> friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed for your
materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do not elect.

>
> Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
> dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
> even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the
> dowels, but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a
> good way to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the
> "socket"? This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for
> the school gym teacher)!

Bill - just try it!!!!!!! You will learn more by just tryingt things than
by going back to the usual asking 1,000 questions mode. You're a smart
guy - just try some things. You'll figure the simple stuff out. Best of
luck to ya!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
> site):
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>

Well - I don't believe you should be charging for the drill bit Bill.
Owning or purchasing the necessary tools is just part of providing the work.

I did not realize this thing had to be so large. The cost of the materials
is what it is, so there's nothing you can do about that. Did they spec Red
Oak? I have not priced Red Oak around here lately, but the price on your
sheet kind of shocked me - seemed quite high to me.



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
>>> friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>
>> Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
>> practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed
>> for your materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do
>> not elect.
>
> No, somehow they worked out that I was building it for "free", but
> that my materials cost will be reimbursed.

Free is fine - whether that is at the beginner level like yourself or at the
advanced level like some of the others here. Hell - I still paint projects
for people for free and I can command $40K for a restoration. Nothing wrong
with free. The bigger problem is when we begin to feel that we are worth
something and that we must get paid for what we do. Hell - take it on,
enjoy the project, learn from it, build your tool inventory, and feel good
about it when it's done. This is not a contract to build a bedroom suite.
Don't let yourself get ahead of yourself Bill. Just take it on and enjoy
the work, and learn from it.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:26:45 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon wrote:
>> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>
>> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
>> Save you receipts! ;~)
>
>
>Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
>And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
>work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
>with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
>My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
>guy".

Of course you're the bad guy. You want to make a whopping $22.01 for
only half a day's work, you ripoff. (Using the lady's full real name
on the group, viewable worldwide, was probaly not the best idea in the
world. QUICK, change the name of the file.)


>It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
>I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
>Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
>uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
>reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
>dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
>good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).

No table or band saw? They'd be my first choice tools.


>Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
>already have one! <sniffle>"? : )

Go for it!

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe
>> Bill would be better served to capture a small percentage of his
>> cost for the bit as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to
>> pony up the rest out of his pocket, or find more work to pay off
>> that bit.
>
> Bill has not been fighting for this job since the beginning. Anyone
> who wants it can have it. Bill will even sent you a gift if you take
> it, upon delivery!
>

Hey Bill - if you really do not and did not want this job - why didn't you
just say "No"? Your subject line in this thread even implies you were
somewhat thrilled at this invitation.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> Cause my agent wanted to do a favor for her friend--I mean customer.
> So far, I haven't even been thanked by the agent for so carefully
> writing up a bid. ; )

Don't hold yer breath...


>
> What sort of projects are you working on Mike?

Oh - not so much really. I recently completed a bathroom in the basement
which preceeds a major remodeling of the first floor of our home. Of
course, since it's a bathroom it required that evil thing - plumbing. Can't
say enough bad things about plumbing.

Other than that - knocked out a couple of paint jobs for friends that didn't
pay me a nickle, but were well worth doing since they were barter business.
Installed a new dryer in my air system feeding my paint guns. Fighting the
battle of cleaning up the 3rd bay of my garage which just always seems to be
the catch-all place for everything. You know - the normal sort of stuff.

Preparing for a major renovation in the house that will require I replace a
12' beam with a 19' beam in order to open things up, and then knock out a
bunch of walls and move rooms around some. We live in a log home so none of
this is as easy as it may first appear.

Did do some refinishing work on some furniture - mostly office furniture in
my home office. Mostly to accomodate my wife's taste in these things.

Other than that - not too much.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 2/22/2012 7:09 PM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
>>> site):
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>
>>
>> Well - I don't believe you should be charging for the drill bit Bill.
>> Owning or purchasing the necessary tools is just part of providing the
>> work.
>
> You'll note that "what I charged for the work"--$22, is less than the
> cost of the drill bit. Don't mistake me for someone really wants to do
> this job--I've already had enough of it! ; )


I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.

If I need a specific drill bit to do the work, it will most likely be
charged for accounting purposes as a direct cost to the specific job for
which it was necessary, rather than as an indirect cost, such as
supplies, and charged as overhead.

IME, you need to be careful how you handle these details ... that's
where the devil is. :)

YMMV ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/22/2012 8:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
>> obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.
>
> Well, yeah... to a point. Common tools and/or equipment is part of the
> investment that gets amortized over many jobs. Bill's charging full
> reimbursement for a common bit that would normally be expected to be within
> the arsenal of someone charging for the work at hand. If this were more of
> a specialty tool, I could see charging for it.
>

But think about what you are saying here. Is Bill really in business?
Is he going to be able to depreciate this tool and or recapture his cost
if this is his last job?

On 2/22/2012 6:30 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
>> site):
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>
> Well - I don't believe you should be charging for the drill bit Bill.
> Owning or purchasing the necessary tools is just part of providing the work.
>
> I did not realize this thing had to be so large. The cost of the materials
> is what it is, so there's nothing you can do about that. Did they spec Red
> Oak? I have not priced Red Oak around here lately, but the price on your
> sheet kind of shocked me - seemed quite high to me.
>
>
>

You dont list the drill bit but you certainly add it into the price.
Why should you take the hit?

"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

Leon wrote:
> On 2/22/2012 11:44 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>>>>> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>>>>> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>>>>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> already have one!<sniffle>"? : )
>>>>
>>>> Go for it!
>>>
>>> Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?
>>>
>>> This looks like a "starter model":
>>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Sander-4-x-36-Belt-6-Disc/G0547
>>>
>>> This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?
>>
>> This one looks better, maybe:
>>
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Disc-Sander/G7297
>>
>> I assume the "psa"(pressure-stick adhesive" sanding discs are
>> non-reusable. So, it would cost about $4 each time to change to a
>> different grit. I'm not crazy about that. 6" psa discs seem to be a
>> quarter of that cost, or less.
>>
>
> Yes! non reusable HOWEVER you are not going to be changing grits, thse
> tools are for rough shaping. You are going to finish sand with finish
> sander or by hand.
>
> The disk that comes on it will last a very long time.
>
>
> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a shop that I used to work in, we had a 12" disk sander with 1 horse
motor. It also had an aluminum disk. We used to grind steel, copper and
tungsten. Never had a bit of problem with it. The flywheel action of a heavy
disk will help if it is underpowered (it will keep it from stalling quite as
quickly) but it is no big deal if you have the power.

On 2/22/2012 11:44 PM, Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>>>> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>>>> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>>>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
>>>> already have one!<sniffle>"? : )
>>>
>>> Go for it!
>>
>> Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?
>>
>> This looks like a "starter model":
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Sander-4-x-36-Belt-6-Disc/G0547
>>
>> This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?
>
> This one looks better, maybe:
>
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Disc-Sander/G7297
>
> I assume the "psa"(pressure-stick adhesive" sanding discs are
> non-reusable. So, it would cost about $4 each time to change to a
> different grit. I'm not crazy about that. 6" psa discs seem to be a
> quarter of that cost, or less.
>

Yes! non reusable HOWEVER you are not going to be changing grits, thse
tools are for rough shaping. You are going to finish sand with finish
sander or by hand.

The disk that comes on it will last a very long time.


And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.

By comparison the 6" disk will be less useful

On 2/29/2012 8:44 AM, CW wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 2/28/2012 6:39 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:
>>
>>> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
>>> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.
>>
>> Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
>> disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
>> aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
>> issue?
>>
>
>
> I have a Delta 1/2" hp 12" iron disk sander. I have come close to
> stalling it but then again I don't pussy foot around when sanding. I
> would not worry so much about heat as not having the mass to plow
> through the process. I use my disk sand strictly for shaping.
> ============================================================
> I was working in a place for a time that had a 36" disk sander. It had
> heavy cast iron table that was adjustable for height and tilt via geared
> crank. it also had a built in dust collector. We kept a 36 grit disk on
> it. This was our roughing machine. It would eat wood at an amazing rate.
> I went to grind a piece of steel on it one time. Not wanting to start a
> fire, I disconnected the hose to the collection bag. The blower was
> built in but I thought that running it for a few minutes would blow the
> dust out. I was wrong. I was grinding for about 15 seconds when the
> leftovers in the blower caught fire. It was shooting flame about 6 feet
> horizontally across the shop. My first thought was to turn it off but
> smoldering in the blower might damage it worse. I just let it run until
> It burned out. A few minutes later, the boss walks in and ask if
> something is burning. I said "Yes, but it's under control". He just
> shrugged and walked out. From then on, if I was going to grind steel on
> that thing, I took an air hose and made sure nothing was in the pipe. I
> always thought that I would like to have that machine but, fact is, I'd
> never have a need for it but I just like nice machines and that one was
> really built. It also weighed about 3/4 ton.


To clarify my comment about not worrying about heat, I wanted that to be
understood as heat not damaging the disk. There is, as you pointed out,
considerable heat that is generated by the sand paper that is
transferred to the dust.

Mike,

I suspect the "customer" would be delighted with most anything as long as it
wasn't much more than she thought she was going to have to spend to begin
with.

But I think that instead of getting dowels I would get some straight 2x4,
which I would cut down to 1x1, and using a router table, make my own dowels.
Of course I'd have to pick up a router, router table, and 1/2" roundover
bit, to do it but what the hey, if it makes the wife happy I'm willing to
sacrifice . . .

And a piece of 2x12 would make a nice sturdy base but I'd want to resaw it
to 1" which would require I get that bandsaw I was looking at . . .

And, of course, I'd need to plane down the 1x12 to make it look nice . . .
dang, I guess I do need a planer too!

Ralph


"Michael Joel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>>>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>>
>>>
>>> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
>>> Save you receipts! ;~)
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
>> site):
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to work).
>> But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking with her
>> so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
>> My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
>> guy".
>>
>> It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
>> I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
>> Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
>> uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
>> reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
>> dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a good-old,
>> old-fashioned hand saw).
>>
>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander. Comments
>> about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it seems like it
>> would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
>> already have one! <sniffle>"? : )
>>
>> Have fun!
>> Bill
>
> Thought your OP was funny.
>
> I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of hand.
> Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment to be
> serious?).
>
> It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
> holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could just
> cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge in to
> anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in. Brush/spray
> with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids :) ) and done. Probably
> could use scrap wood for most of it.
>
> Just my opinion
> Mike

On 2/23/2012 7:06 PM, Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:


> G0690 TS and whatever else they have there! Lake of the Ozarks national
> park (?) is not far away. I drove through the area over 25 years ago,
> and I thought it looked like it would be a nice place to visit.

It is indeed still a beautiful place, but you won't recognize it from 25
years ago.


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/28/2012 7:06 PM, Bill wrote:
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:
>>
>>> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
>>> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.
>>
>> Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
>> disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
>> aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
>> issue?
>>
>
>
> Just curious, do you think that Woodcraft $18.99 disc sander (TS
> accessory) maintains it's shape after you use it a bit? To me, it seems
> unlikely, but you're the one who owns one. Seems like a nice idea if it
> works. Are you think about trading up?


Not saying that the TS disk sander does not work as advertised but!

1. You will have to mount it every time you want to use it after
cutting wood.
2. You will have to remove it to cut wood on your TS.
3. You will have to lean over to the disk, it is some 20
away.
4. A typical self contained 12"disk sander is air cooled the TS
version may not be.

On 2/22/2012 3:26 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>
>> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
>> Save you receipts! ;~)
>
>
> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
> work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
> with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
> My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
> guy".
>
> It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
> I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
> Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
> uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
> reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
> dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
> good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).
>
> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
> already have one! <sniffle>"? : )
>
> Have fun!
> Bill

Disk and belt sander. I have had a small one for 20+years and have
seldom used it. The 6" disk is too small. The belt is OK.

I can recommend a 12" or larger disk sander, I use that all the time.
And for the most part these are shaping machines, not finish sanding
machines.

On 2/21/2012 9:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
>> drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
>> said I could.
>>
>> Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
>> posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
>> laminated base 12" long.
>>
>> Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
>> I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).
>>
>> I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
>> how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
>> dimensioned drawing! ; )
>
> Get used to it Bill. Wait until you get more tools, and develop more
> skills!
>


What did you expect ???


--
"If you voted for Obama in 2008 to prove you're not a racist you'll
have to vote for someone else in 2012 to prove you're not stupid!"

On 2/23/2012 7:55 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 2/23/2012 7:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>
>>> G0690 TS and whatever else they have there! Lake of the Ozarks national
>>> park (?) is not far away. I drove through the area over 25 years ago,
>>> and I thought it looked like it would be a nice place to visit.
>>
>> It is indeed still a beautiful place, but you won't recognize it from 25
>> years ago.
>>
>
>
> It will actually be 27 years next week, since I drove through. I
> suggested it to my agent :) as a possible vacation spot this summer. She
> thinks I just want to go to the Grizzly warehouse though.
>
> Please don't tell me it's been urbanized?


Did a lot of gigging in the area until a couple of years back, and the
trek North up 54 between Camdenton and toward Fulton seems like miles
upon miles of condos and strip centers.

Still pretty off in the distance though.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/22/2012 4:42 PM, chaniarts wrote:
> On 2/22/2012 2:26 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>>>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>>
>>> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
>>> Save you receipts! ;~)
>>
>>
>> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
>> site):
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
>> work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
>> with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
>> My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
>> guy".
>>
>
> as usual, you're overthinking this. it's for a gym class. it's not fine
> woodworking and won't sit on anyone's mantel for a keepsake.
>
> 2x6 piece of pine lumber
> pine dowels
> 1" forstner bit from harbor fright
> a couple dabs of wood glue
> a bit of white paint for a finish
>
> you could build this for under $15, including the bit, and would take
> about 10 minutes.

Perhaps Bill should refer them to you to build this for under $15. You
go buy all the needed tools and materials, build it, and deliver it.

For what it's worth, I have picked up a few tools over the years by
explaining to my wife that in order to do what she wants I have to have a
certain tool. My wife taught elementary school for close to 30 years and
all the projects that she, and some of the other teachers, wanted me to do
allowed me to add to my tool collection. And I got to play around in my
workshop. And the other teachers really envied that my wife had such a
talented husband. :-) And my wife was delighted and happy. And life was
good.

Ralph


"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>
>> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
>> Save you receipts! ;~)
>
>
> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to work).
> But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking with her
> so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
> My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
> guy".
>
> It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think I
> need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21, Issue
> 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice uniform
> bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a reasonable
> result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the dowels to
> uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a good-old,
> old-fashioned hand saw).
>
> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander. Comments
> about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it seems like it
> would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
> already have one! <sniffle>"? : )
>
> Have fun!
> Bill

Oh! Yes! I'd forgotten sanding/finishing. And I'm sure there would still
be a couple of items I would absolutely have to have to properly complete
the project. Life just seems to always be like that. I'll probably also
need to enlarge my shop space too.

Ralph


"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ralph Compton" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I suspect the "customer" would be delighted with most anything as long
>> as it wasn't much more than she thought she was going to have to spend
>> to begin with.
>>
>> But I think that instead of getting dowels I would get some straight
>> 2x4, which I would cut down to 1x1, and using a router table, make my
>> own dowels. Of course I'd have to pick up a router, router table, and
>> 1/2" roundover bit, to do it but what the hey, if it makes the wife
>> happy I'm willing to sacrifice . . .
>>
>> And a piece of 2x12 would make a nice sturdy base but I'd want to
>> resaw it to 1" which would require I get that bandsaw I was looking at
>> . . .
>>
>> And, of course, I'd need to plane down the 1x12 to make it look nice .
>> . . dang, I guess I do need a planer too!
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>
> Don't forget that planing isn't always the final surface, so you'll need
> a good quality Festool sander and some good sandpaper. That's always a
> messy process, so you need the sander and dust extractor kit. ;-)
>
> Don't even ask about paint brushes.
>
> Puckdropper
>
> --
> Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 2/23/2012 9:54 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

> I grew up in that part of the country. Little town called Ashland
> halfway between Columbia and Jefferson City. My sister lives in
> Camdenton, and my parents live right by the Lake Of The Ozarks in the
> Laurie area. We drive up that way practically every year. Sure, there's
> been lots of "progress" in the last 30 years, but there is still plenty
> of beautiful country to be seen. I've been to the Grizzly store in
> Springfield several times.

I love MO ... good to go back there and visit with folks raised in
Mid-America, where there is a totally different slant on things than
that crowded rat attitude you often find further East and West.

We (WRB) headlined the annual street festival in both Columbia and
Fulton on a number of occasions, and were the favored sons of one of the
local banks wherever, and whenever, they had any big shindigs.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Bill wrote:

.
>
> Well, I agreew with you on the saw and the jointer. I think a disc
> sander belongs in there before the DP.
>


Wait until you start using that nice new drill press of yours Bill. The
first time it grabs the work piece out of your hand and whirls it around -
usually taking one of your thumbs with it - you'll know.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> No dowel is completely round. If the wood is hard enough, you can
>> force a dowel into it. If the dowel is hard and the wood is soft,
>> the dowel can eventually break the wood. If you want the best fir,
>> drill a hole slightly smaller than the dowel. Then trim the dowel to
>> fit. Use some good glue and make sure everything is snug and fitted
>> before the glue dries.
>
>
> My guess is that Red Oak is a better choice than Poplar (those appear
> to be my only choices in 1" dowels) that aren't broomstick handles! It
> should stand up to abuse better, correct?
>
> A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
> see whether that is in the budget.

Go to Harbor Freight.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:

>
> I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
> obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.

Well, yeah... to a point. Common tools and/or equipment is part of the
investment that gets amortized over many jobs. Bill's charging full
reimbursement for a common bit that would normally be expected to be within
the arsenal of someone charging for the work at hand. If this were more of
a specialty tool, I could see charging for it.

Then again there is the practice of charging for a bottle of glue, when the
project itself will only consume less than 1% of that bottle. In this
case - a small matter since the price is low, but in principle it's not a
good pricing strategy.

This fall squarely into the area of personal opinion, but my belief is that
you build your minimum required tool inventory out of your labor charges. I
guess what I am saying is that unless the tool is something outside of the
normal expected tools for a particular task, I believe that if you are going
to charge for labor on work then you better be prepared to deliver that work
and that includes having the capability to do it - both skill and equipment.
We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe Bill
would be better served to capture a small percentage of his cost for the bit
as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to pony up the rest out of
his pocket, or find more work to pay off that bit.

>
> If I need a specific drill bit to do the work, it will most likely be
> charged for accounting purposes as a direct cost to the specific job
> for which it was necessary, rather than as an indirect cost, such as
> supplies, and charged as overhead.

That makes sense from an accounting standpoint.

>
> IME, you need to be careful how you handle these details ... that's
> where the devil is. :)
>

Yup.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:44:30 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>>>> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>>>> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>>>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
>>>> already have one!<sniffle>"? : )
>>>
>>> Go for it!
>>
>> Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?
>>
>> This looks like a "starter model":
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Sander-4-x-36-Belt-6-Disc/G0547
>>
>> This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?
>
>This one looks better, maybe:
>
>http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Disc-Sander/G7297
>
>I assume the "psa"(pressure-stick adhesive" sanding discs are
>non-reusable. So, it would cost about $4 each time to change to a
>different grit. I'm not crazy about that. 6" psa discs seem to be a
>quarter of that cost, or less.

I've successfully reused psa paper on my ROS, but hook and loop (H&L)
is easier. Use your ROS if you want to change grits. The big discs
are great, and more aggressive if you want that for shaping. Hmm, I
wonder if there's a H&L kit for those big guys...


>(I) Learn something new everyday...

This is A Good Thing(tm).

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

Bill wrote:
> On 2/27/2012 8:15 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>> .
>>>
>>> Well, I agreew with you on the saw and the jointer. I think a disc
>>> sander belongs in there before the DP.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Wait until you start using that nice new drill press of yours Bill. The
>> first time it grabs the work piece out of your hand and whirls
>> it around - usually taking one of your thumbs with it - you'll know.
>>
>
>
> That reminds me of when I screw deck screws with my 'tiny' 10-Amp
> Dewalt drill with tail. It has no clutch. When the screw gets seated
> you have to be ready to let go of the handle! DAMHIKT! Nice drill!
> : )

I would not call your 10A drill tiny Bill. It's on the lower end, but still
enough to give you a wrist twist. Wait until you get into one with 12-15A
motor on it. Then... get it up over your head, drilling holes in floor
joists, and at that blissfull moment when the thing grabs - just before the
hole breaks through...That's usually when you say that you need to get a 90
degree drill.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>
>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>
>>
>> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
>> Save you receipts! ;~)
>
>
>
> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
> work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
> with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
> My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
> guy".
>
> It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
> I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
> Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
> uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
> reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
> dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
> good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).
>
> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
> already have one! <sniffle>"? : )
>
> Have fun!
> Bill

Thought your OP was funny.

I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of
hand. Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment
to be serious?).

It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could
just cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge
in to anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in.
Brush/spray with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids :) ) and
done. Probably could use scrap wood for most of it.

Just my opinion
Mike

Leon wrote:
> On 2/22/2012 8:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
>>> obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.
>>
>> Well, yeah... to a point. Common tools and/or equipment is part of
>> the investment that gets amortized over many jobs. Bill's charging
>> full reimbursement for a common bit that would normally be expected
>> to be within the arsenal of someone charging for the work at hand. If
>> this were more of a specialty tool, I could see charging for it.
>>
>
> But think about what you are saying here. Is Bill really in business?
> Is he going to be able to depreciate this tool and or recapture his
> cost if this is his last job?

Just wait until that project makes its way to through the school doors.
Have you ever dealt with school teachers? The orders for all sorts of
things will start flooding in - through his wife of course.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:04:05 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
>drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
>said I could.
>
>Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
>posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
>laminated base 12" long.
>
>Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
>I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).
>
>I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
>how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
>dimensioned drawing! ; ) I Guess I should count my blessings, a year
>ago, I would have had to say I didn't have a drill press. But honestly,
>I'm still able think up my own projects fast enough, TYVM! : )

Congrats, Swingy. You have now officially entered the Architectural
HoneyDo List stage of life. Next is the City Permit phase, so be glad
you're where you are. ;)

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:03:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon wrote:
>> On 2/22/2012 8:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
>>>> obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.
>>>
>>> Well, yeah... to a point. Common tools and/or equipment is part of
>>> the investment that gets amortized over many jobs. Bill's charging
>>> full reimbursement for a common bit that would normally be expected
>>> to be within the arsenal of someone charging for the work at hand. If
>>> this were more of a specialty tool, I could see charging for it.
>>>
>>
>> But think about what you are saying here. Is Bill really in business?
>> Is he going to be able to depreciate this tool and or recapture his
>> cost if this is his last job?
>
>Just wait until that project makes its way to through the school doors.
>Have you ever dealt with school teachers? The orders for all sorts of
>things will start flooding in - through his wife of course.

All thinking "Hey, we've found another sucker who'll work for free!"
if Bill doesn't change the parameters of the new game.

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

On 2/23/2012 7:03 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 2/22/2012 8:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
>>>> obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.
>>>
>>> Well, yeah... to a point. Common tools and/or equipment is part of
>>> the investment that gets amortized over many jobs. Bill's charging
>>> full reimbursement for a common bit that would normally be expected
>>> to be within the arsenal of someone charging for the work at hand. If
>>> this were more of a specialty tool, I could see charging for it.
>>>
>>
>> But think about what you are saying here. Is Bill really in business?
>> Is he going to be able to depreciate this tool and or recapture his
>> cost if this is his last job?
>
> Just wait until that project makes its way to through the school doors.
> Have you ever dealt with school teachers? The orders for all sorts of
> things will start flooding in - through his wife of course.
>

Well with the assumption that he will be doing more I agree. ;~) But
still I would not absorb the cost.

"<<<__ Bøb __>>>" wrote:
>
>
> On 2/21/2012 9:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
>>> drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
>>> said I could.
>>>
>>> Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
>>> posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
>>> laminated base 12" long.
>>>
>>> Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
>>> I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).
>>>
>>> I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
>>> how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
>>> dimensioned drawing! ; )
>>
>> Get used to it Bill. Wait until you get more tools, and develop more
>> skills!
>>
>
>
> What did you expect ???

I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the
dowels, but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a
good way to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school
gym teacher)!

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
>> friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>
> Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
> practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed for your
> materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do not elect.

No, somehow they worked out that I was building it for "free", but that
my materials cost will be reimbursed.

>
>>
>> Question:

> Bill - just try it!!!!!!! You will learn more by just tryingt things than
> by going back to the usual asking 1,000 questions mode. You're a smart
> guy - just try some things. You'll figure the simple stuff out. Best of
> luck to ya!

Thanks, I'm sure this project won't be too hard. But it would be easier,
or I might be able to get cleaner cuts, if I had a TS. Yes, I will
improvise. Hell, I can envision a jig to cut a 1" dowel with a CS. Now
where did I learn that? "Free", &*#%!

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
>>>> friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>>
>>> Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
>>> practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed
>>> for your materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do
>>> not elect.
>>
>> No, somehow they worked out that I was building it for "free", but
>> that my materials cost will be reimbursed.
>
> Free is fine -... Just take it on and enjoy
> the work, and learn from it.

Yes, I will. I have painting to do and lighting to install when it
warms up! I'm not genuinely complaining, I just thought it was a mildly
amusing story.

Lee Michaels wrote:

> If you want a good hole to fit a dowel in, don't use a spade bit.


Lots of great tips in your post! Thank you very much!!

Bill

Lee Michaels wrote:

> No dowel is completely round. If the wood is hard enough, you can force
> a dowel into it. If the dowel is hard and the wood is soft, the dowel
> can eventually break the wood. If you want the best fir, drill a hole
> slightly smaller than the dowel. Then trim the dowel to fit. Use some
> good glue and make sure everything is snug and fitted before the glue
> dries.


My guess is that Red Oak is a better choice than Poplar (those appear to
be my only choices in 1" dowels) that aren't broomstick handles! It
should stand up to abuse better, correct?

A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
see whether that is in the budget.

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote

>> A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
>> see whether that is in the budget.
>
> Go to Harbor Freight.

I'm going now! I'm at $76.99 in supplies and materials (Red Oak),
including the drill bit above, and I'd like to reduce that!

Leon wrote:
> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:

>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>
> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
> Save you receipts! ;~)


Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".

It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).

Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
already have one! <sniffle>"? : )

Have fun!
Bill

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:10:06 -0500, Bill wrote:

> My guess is that Red Oak is a better choice than Poplar (those appear to
> be my only choices in 1" dowels) that aren't broomstick handles! It
> should stand up to abuse better, correct?

Bill, take your calipers with you and go someplace like Woodcraft, not a
lumber yard. I needed some 1.25" dowels a short time ago. I found some
maple that was 0.002" undersize. I could have just been lucky, but I
tested several more than I needed and they were all in that range.

Should you wind up with a slightly loose fit, use epoxy instead of wood
glue and it'll fill the gaps.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Puckdropper wrote:
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>>
>> A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
>> see whether that is in the budget.
>
> Got a Lowe's around? (You probably do.) They've got a Porter Cable
> Forstner set for $20 that includes a 1" bit. It's a pretty decent kit,
> especially considering the price.
>
> Puckdropper

Thank you for the tip! I suspect a Forstner bit may not leave as good of
a glueing surface as a twist drill, but maybe good enough. I'm not sure.
I have no experience using Forstner bits, and I'm only guessing.
Surely a lot better than a spade bit, which was my first alternative
choice!

The Porter-Cable set sounds like it would be a nice set to have. TYVM!

Bill

On 2/22/2012 2:26 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>>> On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
>>> reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
>>> of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.
>>
>> Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
>> Save you receipts! ;~)
>
>
> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
> work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
> with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
> My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
> guy".
>

as usual, you're overthinking this. it's for a gym class. it's not fine
woodworking and won't sit on anyone's mantel for a keepsake.

2x6 piece of pine lumber
pine dowels
1" forstner bit from harbor fright
a couple dabs of wood glue
a bit of white paint for a finish

you could build this for under $15, including the bit, and would take
about 10 minutes.

Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" offered up this bit of pseudo woodworking wisdom
>>
>> Thank you for the tip! I suspect a Forstner bit may not leave as good
>> of a glueing surface as a twist drill, but maybe good enough. I'm not
>> sure. I have no experience using Forstner bits, and I'm only guessing.
>> Surely a lot better than a spade bit, which was my first alternative
>> choice!
>>
> Bill, Bill, Billlll...., Deep breath now. Forstner bits are DESIGNED to
> cut wood. That is their purpose in life. To cut holes that have a crisp,
> sharp edge to them. Something that looks goods and performs well. Twist
> drills, on the other hand, are designed to cut metal.

<snip>

OKAY, TYVM! Lesson appreciated!!! : )


> Buy a forstner bit. Use it. You need a set of a few common sizes any
> way. You will the only person I ever talked to who got a drill press and
> did not bother to buy some bits for it. Doncha know?? Big power tools
> are the gateway drug. First you buy the tool, then...

FWIW, I DID buy a set of 5 decent (made in Germany) Brad-point bits
(1/4" to 5/8"). Those were supposedt to be the "greatest thing since
sliced bread" the last time the subject of drill bits came up. How do
the B-P's compare with the Forstner's???


>
> Common strategy on this sort of thing is to buy an economical set. Then
> buy good ones of the ones that you use most often. And remember to get
> something to dress up the edges to keep this thing sharp. It only works
> well if it has something of an edge on it.
>
> If you don't do this, you work will suffer. You went to a lot of time
> and trouble to buy that drill press and mount it on its custom base.
> What is your excuse for not using it properly? (Or buying it presents?)

Yes, I should find my L-V catalog, and buy lots of presents! : )

I still need a TS too. Don't worry, I have lot of projects going! : )


> And regardless of your wife's perspective, if you do lousy work,
> everybody will be pissed off at you. And we will think of you as a
> woodworking WIMP. ;-)
>
> Man up, buy the damn bits, get on with your life.
>
> </end of rant>
>
>
>
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
>dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
>even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the
>dowels, but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a
>good way to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
>This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school
>gym teacher)!

Not sure I'd call it a "good way" but I've had some luck with wrapping a
plane shaving around a loose fitting dowel. Be sure to test the fit in
a scrap before drilling the project.


--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Michael Joel wrote:

> I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of
> hand. Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment
> to be serious?).
>
> It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
> holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could
> just cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge
> in to anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in.
> Brush/spray with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids :) ) and
> done. Probably could use scrap wood for most of it.
>
> Just my opinion
> Mike


Yes, I recognize(d) that it is overdone. I went in accordance with the
basic design given to me (that I did Not Request). I would suggest a
different design (2by-lumber) that I think makes more sense (ordinary
plywood irritates me physically until it out-gasses). So far, my wife
is is not interested in discussing a different design.

Concerning the moment where my wife asked, "Do you have a drill press?",
the smart answer is evidently, "No". : )

Maybe I'll put something together at my leisure. When I promised to
deliver by a certain date, which I felt necessary to do as I was
requesting a down payment, it became "work".

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
>> site):
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>
> Well - I don't believe you should be charging for the drill bit Bill.
> Owning or purchasing the necessary tools is just part of providing the work.

You'll note that "what I charged for the work"--$22, is less than the
cost of the drill bit. Don't mistake me for someone really wants to do
this job--I've already had enough of it! ; )

>
> I did not realize this thing had to be so large. The cost of the materials
> is what it is, so there's nothing you can do about that. Did they spec Red
> Oak? I have not priced Red Oak around here lately, but the price on your
> sheet kind of shocked me - seemed quite high to me.

I thought it was high too, but I got my prices from Lowes.com. The 1"
dowels at Lowes.com were either Popar or Red Oak, so I made my choice
and followed from there. I could build a "solution" for less than $15
just like everyone else. When I was in my midteens, I build a 6'
"box-hockey" game that folded in half. It was enjoyed by lots of my
neighborhood friends for a summer. It didn't have a lot of
"craftsmanship", but it was fun to play. Heres the basic layout:

------------------------------------------|
| || |
| || |
| |
| || | |
|| |
| || |

| || |
| || |
| || |
| |
| || | |
|| |
------------------------------------------|

You sit on yer butt to play. Each player got a hockeystick-shaped
paddle and took turns hitting the
"puck" toward the oppponents goal. Players take turns and if getting
through a middle opening, get another turn. First to a specified number
of goals (7, 11, 15?) wins. There was a small bit of wagering. Of
course, you can fight about whether the puck makes it through or not.
And the "faceoff", off the center of the 3" high middle part, is sort of
dramatic: 1 and-a ::click:: 2 and-a ::click:: 3 and-a ::click:: GO!! : )

Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> Of course you're the bad guy. You want to make a whopping $22.01 for
> only half a day's work, you ripoff. (Using the lady's full real name
> on the group, viewable worldwide, was probaly not the best idea in the
> world. QUICK, change the name of the file.)

"Cricket" is the name of the game.

>
>
>> It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
>> I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
>> Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
>> uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
>> reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
>> dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
>> good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).
>
> No table or band saw? They'd be my first choice tools.

Yes, I have a band saw. I don't mind hand-sawing either.
The choice would not matter if I had a disk sander! : )

>
>
>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
>> already have one!<sniffle>"? : )
>
> Go for it!

Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?

This looks like a "starter model":
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Sander-4-x-36-Belt-6-Disc/G0547

This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?

Mike Marlow wrote:

> We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe Bill
> would be better served to capture a small percentage of his cost for the bit
> as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to pony up the rest out of
> his pocket, or find more work to pay off that bit.

Bill has not been fighting for this job since the beginning. Anyone who
wants it can have it. Bill will even sent you a gift if you take it,
upon delivery!

Bill listed that drill bit right up there at the top of the bid since he
previously mentioned to his agent that he DID NOT HAVE the necessary
drill bit (and except for this project, really has little need for one).
Agent and customer had "no clue" what such a bit cost, but agent was
informed by Bill earlier that they might be around $30.

Agent proceeded to bring home a detailed plan from "customer" anyway.

"Bid" was created by Bill, and rejected by the agent, who appears to
have been fuming over it all day. Bill can't provide a "Walmart-Like"
price on the project, according to the specifications provided by the
customer, and his agent is not happy with this.

The smartest thing Bill thinks he did was get my "bid" rejected before
the project really started. The group discussed this sort of thing last
summer, or so. Getting a "down payment" in advance is a very good way
to make sure there is a "meeting of the minds"! Some folks mistake
being upfront about money as some sort of evil. You don't want them as
your business agents! Don't wait until delivery to talk about money
because you'll only get $25, because any other figure "sounds like alot".

This experience reinforced some good lessons, at least for me. Please
don't forget about earning your free gift (mentioned at the top).

Cheers!

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe
>>> Bill would be better served to capture a small percentage of his
>>> cost for the bit as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to
>>> pony up the rest out of his pocket, or find more work to pay off
>>> that bit.
>>
>> Bill has not been fighting for this job since the beginning. Anyone
>> who wants it can have it. Bill will even sent you a gift if you take
>> it, upon delivery!
>>
>
> Hey Bill - if you really do not and did not want this job - why didn't you
> just say "No"?

Cause my agent wanted to do a favor for her friend--I mean customer.
So far, I haven't even been thanked by the agent for so carefully
writing up a bid. ; )

Your subject line in this thread even implies you were
> somewhat thrilled at this invitation.

Whatever I typed, I was never thrilled. The most fun I had with it was
thinking about how I could use a disc sander on it. The business aspect
of it was not wasted on me either. I haven't had much experience
being on the seller-side in recent years.

What sort of projects are you working on Mike?

Bill wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:

>>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>>> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>>> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
>>> already have one!<sniffle>"? : )
>>
>> Go for it!
>
> Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?
>
> This looks like a "starter model":
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Sander-4-x-36-Belt-6-Disc/G0547
>
> This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?

This one looks better, maybe:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Disc-Sander/G7297

I assume the "psa"(pressure-stick adhesive" sanding discs are
non-reusable. So, it would cost about $4 each time to change to a
different grit. I'm not crazy about that. 6" psa discs seem to be a
quarter of that cost, or less.

(I) Learn something new everyday...

On 2/23/2012 1:28 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

> Several good lessons came from this.

Yep, you're right. I'll print your post and keep it in mind!

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:49:10 -0500, Bill wrote:

> FWIW, I DID buy a set of 5 decent (made in Germany) Brad-point bits
> (1/4" to 5/8"). Those were supposedt to be the "greatest thing since
> sliced bread" the last time the subject of drill bits came up. How do
> the B-P's compare with the Forstner's???

Brad point bits are great for drilling 90 degree through holes and
stopped holes where a flat bottom is not needed.

Forstner bits leave a flat bottom except for a tiny dimple in the
center. Forstner bits are edge guided. Thus you can drill half a hole,
or a slanted hole where one edge enters the wood before the other. You
might be able to drill a slanted hole with a large inflexible brad point
bit, but I wouldn't try it.

NOTE: If you do drill a partial or slanted hole with a Forstner bit, be
aware that you no longer have forces distributed around 360 degrees. The
bit will try to pull the wood in the direction of rotation. DAMHIKT!
Clamp the wood down.

End of lesson 2 on Forstner bits :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 2/23/2012 7:16 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/22/2012 4:42 PM, chaniarts wrote:

>> as usual, you're overthinking this. it's for a gym class. it's not fine
>> woodworking and won't sit on anyone's mantel for a keepsake.
>>
>> 2x6 piece of pine lumber
>> pine dowels
>> 1" forstner bit from harbor fright
>> a couple dabs of wood glue
>> a bit of white paint for a finish
>>
>> you could build this for under $15, including the bit, and would take
>> about 10 minutes.
>
> Perhaps Bill should refer them to you to build this for under $15. You
> go buy all the needed tools and materials, build it, and deliver it.

I made a 5 minute SketchUp drawing last night, and left it on the
counter this morning. The initial reaction was good. A short 2by8 and
two 2by4s should do it! Maybe some paint! : )

On 2/23/2012 8:03 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 2/22/2012 8:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
>>>> obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.
>>>
>>> Well, yeah... to a point. Common tools and/or equipment is part of
>>> the investment that gets amortized over many jobs. Bill's charging
>>> full reimbursement for a common bit that would normally be expected
>>> to be within the arsenal of someone charging for the work at hand. If
>>> this were more of a specialty tool, I could see charging for it.
>>>
>>
>> But think about what you are saying here. Is Bill really in business?
>> Is he going to be able to depreciate this tool and or recapture his
>> cost if this is his last job?
>
> Just wait until that project makes its way to through the school doors.
> Have you ever dealt with school teachers? The orders for all sorts of
> things will start flooding in - through his wife of course.
>

They have wishes, yes. But they (Catholic school) operate on a
shoestring budget! Fortunately, many of the parents are
enthusiastic--certainly a greater ratio of them then at a typical public
school.

On 2/23/2012 1:42 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/22/2012 11:44 PM, Bill wrote:

> Yes! non reusable HOWEVER you are not going to be changing grits, thse
> tools are for rough shaping. You are going to finish sand with finish
> sander or by hand.
>
> The disk that comes on it will last a very long time.
>
>
> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.

Thank you for the tips!


>
> By comparison the 6" disk will be less useful
>
>

Larry Blanchard wrote:

> End of lesson 2 on Forstner bits :-).
>

TYVM!

Leon wrote:
> On 2/22/2012 11:44 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>>>>> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>>>>> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>>>>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> already have one!<sniffle>"? : )
>>>>
>>>> Go for it!
>>>
>>> Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?
>>>
>>> This looks like a "starter model":
>>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Sander-4-x-36-Belt-6-Disc/G0547
>>>
>>> This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?
>>
>> This one looks better, maybe:
>>
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Disc-Sander/G7297
>>
>> I assume the "psa"(pressure-stick adhesive" sanding discs are
>> non-reusable. So, it would cost about $4 each time to change to a
>> different grit. I'm not crazy about that. 6" psa discs seem to be a
>> quarter of that cost, or less.
>>
>
> Yes! non reusable HOWEVER you are not going to be changing grits, thse
> tools are for rough shaping. You are going to finish sand with finish
> sander or by hand.
>
> The disk that comes on it will last a very long time.
>
>
> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>

This one boasts of a heavy cast-iron wheel, so I think it follows the
cheaper unit lacks it (especially since the cheaper one has an aluminum
table). I guess were back to "ya get whatcha pay for...".

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Disc-Sander-with-Brake/G0702

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:42:39 -0600, Leon wrote:

> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.

I bought a 10" disk a while back that was flat on one side and tapered on
the other. Rough grit on the flat side and medium or fine on the tapered
side. Tilt the tapered side (mounted on the table saw) so it is vertical
and I can sand without getting arc scratches. Here's a link:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001809/2839/Sanding-Disc-10.aspx

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Bill wrote:

>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>>
>
> This one boasts of a heavy cast-iron wheel, so I think it follows the
> cheaper unit lacks it (especially since the cheaper one has an aluminum
> table). I guess were back to "ya get whatcha pay for...".
>
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Disc-Sander-with-Brake/G0702
>

Evidently I can save $79 freight if I go pick it up. That would take a
little of the pinch out of it. I was, coincidentally, thinking of maybe
stopping by the Grizzly warehouse in MO this summer anyway to see the
G0690 TS and whatever else they have there! Lake of the Ozarks national
park (?) is not far away. I drove through the area over 25 years ago,
and I thought it looked like it would be a nice place to visit. It's
12A machine, so i'm not sure whether the camp sites would support that
or not! ; )

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:42:39 -0600, Leon wrote:
>
>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>
> I bought a 10" disk a while back that was flat on one side and tapered on
> the other. Rough grit on the flat side and medium or fine on the tapered
> side. Tilt the tapered side (mounted on the table saw) so it is vertical
> and I can sand without getting arc scratches. Here's a link:
>
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001809/2839/Sanding-Disc-10.aspx
>

Interesting, thanks for the link. This surely may make more sense than a
disc sander for occasional users (like me). It doesn't take up a lot of
space either.

Swingman wrote:
> On 2/23/2012 7:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>
>
>> G0690 TS and whatever else they have there! Lake of the Ozarks national
>> park (?) is not far away. I drove through the area over 25 years ago,
>> and I thought it looked like it would be a nice place to visit.
>
> It is indeed still a beautiful place, but you won't recognize it from 25
> years ago.
>


It will actually be 27 years next week, since I drove through. I
suggested it to my agent :) as a possible vacation spot this summer.
She thinks I just want to go to the Grizzly warehouse though.

Please don't tell me it's been urbanized?

> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:42:39 -0600, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>>
>> I bought a 10" disk a while back that was flat on one side and tapered on
>> the other. Rough grit on the flat side and medium or fine on the tapered
>> side. Tilt the tapered side (mounted on the table saw) so it is vertical
>> and I can sand without getting arc scratches. Here's a link:
>>
>> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001809/2839/Sanding-Disc-10.aspx

Larry,

I was adding the disc above to my "wish list" so I don't forget about it
when I saw this: Freud CD010 10" Calibration & Sanding Disk

Its advantage over the other is you can reuse your sanding discs (so you
don't have to rebuy it when it wears out).

It's nice to know about these accessories. Thanks!

On 2/23/2012 8:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/23/2012 7:55 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 2/23/2012 7:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> G0690 TS and whatever else they have there! Lake of the Ozarks national
>>>> park (?) is not far away. I drove through the area over 25 years ago,
>>>> and I thought it looked like it would be a nice place to visit.
>>>
>>> It is indeed still a beautiful place, but you won't recognize it from 25
>>> years ago.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It will actually be 27 years next week, since I drove through. I
>> suggested it to my agent :) as a possible vacation spot this summer. She
>> thinks I just want to go to the Grizzly warehouse though.
>>
>> Please don't tell me it's been urbanized?
>
>
> Did a lot of gigging in the area until a couple of years back, and the trek
> North up 54 between Camdenton and toward Fulton seems like miles upon miles of
> condos and strip centers.
>
> Still pretty off in the distance though.

I grew up in that part of the country. Little town called Ashland halfway
between Columbia and Jefferson City. My sister lives in Camdenton, and my
parents live right by the Lake Of The Ozarks in the Laurie area. We drive up
that way practically every year. Sure, there's been lots of "progress" in the
last 30 years, but there is still plenty of beautiful country to be seen. I've
been to the Grizzly store in Springfield several times.

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:04:55 -0500, Bill wrote:

> I was adding the disc above to my "wish list" so I don't forget about it
> when I saw this: Freud CD010 10" Calibration & Sanding Disk
>
> Its advantage over the other is you can reuse your sanding discs (so you
> don't have to rebuy it when it wears out).

I looked it up. It doesn't say anything about a tapered side, it looks
as though it might be aluminum instead of steel, and re-using PSA disks
is iffy at best.

Everyone to their own taste, but I still think the tapered one is better.

P.S. I checked again, the Freud plate must be aluminum. It weighs 1
pound as compared to 2.69 pounds for the steel one from Woodcraft.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:04:55 -0500, Bill wrote:
>
>> I was adding the disc above to my "wish list" so I don't forget about it
>> when I saw this: Freud CD010 10" Calibration& Sanding Disk
>>
>> Its advantage over the other is you can reuse your sanding discs (so you
>> don't have to rebuy it when it wears out).
>
> I looked it up. It doesn't say anything about a tapered side, it looks
> as though it might be aluminum instead of steel, and re-using PSA disks
> is iffy at best.
>
> Everyone to their own taste, but I still think the tapered one is better.
>
> P.S. I checked again, the Freud plate must be aluminum. It weighs 1
> pound as compared to 2.69 pounds for the steel one from Woodcraft.
>

I got the impression that the Woodcraft one was "disposable" (wear the
grit off it, and replace it). Is it not?

Bill

Bill wrote:
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:04:55 -0500, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I was adding the disc above to my "wish list" so I don't forget about it
>>> when I saw this: Freud CD010 10" Calibration& Sanding Disk
>>>
>>> Its advantage over the other is you can reuse your sanding discs (so you
>>> don't have to rebuy it when it wears out).
>>
>> I looked it up. It doesn't say anything about a tapered side, it looks
>> as though it might be aluminum instead of steel, and re-using PSA disks
>> is iffy at best.
>>
>> Everyone to their own taste, but I still think the tapered one is better.
>>
>> P.S. I checked again, the Freud plate must be aluminum. It weighs 1
>> pound as compared to 2.69 pounds for the steel one from Woodcraft.
>>
>
> I got the impression that the Woodcraft one was "disposable" (wear the
> grit off it, and replace it). Is it not?
>
> Bill

Larry, Sorry. I thought what I did because I misread one of the
reviews. It surely, looks like a decent product. Thanks! Bill

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:36:59 -0500, Bill wrote:

> I got the impression that the Woodcraft one was "disposable" (wear the
> grit off it, and replace it). Is it not?

Nope - uses the same PSA disks.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:42:39 -0600, Leon wrote:
>
>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>
> I bought a 10" disk a while back that was flat on one side and tapered on
> the other. Rough grit on the flat side and medium or fine on the tapered
> side. Tilt the tapered side (mounted on the table saw) so it is vertical
> and I can sand without getting arc scratches. Here's a link:
>
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001809/2839/Sanding-Disc-10.aspx
>


Unless approached from a distance, it doesn't seem like this TS
accessory is as "safe" as a real disc sander. If you accidently get
your work off of the correct side (which may or may not be different
than the correct side on a real disc sander), it seems you could get
your hand "thrown" into the edge of the disc/blade. But maybe we
shouldn't be "worry-warts". : ) I don't even have a TS yet, so even
this is not an option today. But it's on my "wish list".

Of course, ever since Leon helped "refine my taste" to those disc
sanders that have cast iron wheels, I've struggled with the $400-500+
price tags. I've got some rasps I can use while I'm thinking about it!

I've got 12 "corners" I'll do by hand this week (1" radius on 3/4"
stock). Hmmm...how many folks would prefer to use a routing table with
a "peg". More dust with the disc sander and a different sort of
(potential) "tear out"? Of course, you could start with a band saw, to
expedite the work. My guess, is that if "very fine quality" is required,
then the router is the better choice, but the disc sander may faster.
Is there anything more worth saying about these alternatives that isn't
self-evident?

BTW, MM--It's an academic question, so please don't tell me to just go
out and do it! Maybe I'm writing a book? : )

Bill

Thread renamed!

Bill wrote:
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:42:39 -0600, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>>
>> I bought a 10" disk a while back that was flat on one side and tapered on
>> the other. Rough grit on the flat side and medium or fine on the tapered
>> side. Tilt the tapered side (mounted on the table saw) so it is vertical
>> and I can sand without getting arc scratches. Here's a link:
>>
>> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001809/2839/Sanding-Disc-10.aspx
>>
>
>
> Unless approached from a distance, it doesn't seem like this TS
> accessory is as "safe" as a real disc sander. If you accidently get your
> work off of the correct side (which may or may not be different than the
> correct side on a real disc sander), it seems you could get your hand
> "thrown" into the edge of the disc/blade. But maybe we shouldn't be
> "worry-warts". : ) I don't even have a TS yet, so even this is not an
> option today. But it's on my "wish list".
>
> Of course, ever since Leon helped "refine my taste" to those disc
> sanders that have cast iron wheels, I've struggled with the $400-500+
> price tags. I've got some rasps I can use while I'm thinking about it!
>
> I've got 12 "corners" I'll do by hand this week (1" radius on 3/4"
> stock). Hmmm...how many folks would prefer to use a routing table with a
> "peg". More dust with the disc sander and a different sort of
> (potential) "tear out"? Of course, you could start with a band saw, to
> expedite the work. My guess, is that if "very fine quality" is required,
> then the router is the better choice, but the disc sander may faster. Is
> there anything more worth saying about these alternatives that isn't
> self-evident?
>
> BTW, MM--It's an academic question, so please don't tell me to just go
> out and do it! Maybe I'm writing a book? : )
>
> Bill
>

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:38:34 -0500, Bill wrote:

> Unless approached from a distance, it doesn't seem like this TS
> accessory is as "safe" as a real disc sander. If you accidently get
> your work off of the correct side (which may or may not be different
> than the correct side on a real disc sander), it seems you could get
> your hand "thrown" into the edge of the disc/blade.

Bill, you've got me scratching my head on this one. If you mean that the
table saw disk is more dangerous because it isn't shrouded, I suppose one
could make that case. But "thrown"?

Note that even a table saw can only throw a piece of wood if the wood
hits the rising back part of the blade. You will only try to sand on the
rising part of a sanding disk *once*. It will try to lift the wood,
albeit with much less force than a toothed blade. But by the very
mechanics of the sanding process, you would be standing to one side and
hopefully holding the wood down.

BTW, I'd much rather have my fingertip sanded than cut off - hmmm, I
think I did sand a finger in high school wood class :-).

In short, while any tool can injure you, I think a sanding disk, shrouded
or not, is several orders of magnitude below a saw, a jointer, or even a
drill press.

Perhaps a little more practical experience before you write that book?

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:38:34 -0500, Bill wrote:
>
>> Unless approached from a distance, it doesn't seem like this TS
>> accessory is as "safe" as a real disc sander. If you accidently get
>> your work off of the correct side (which may or may not be different
>> than the correct side on a real disc sander), it seems you could get
>> your hand "thrown" into the edge of the disc/blade.
>
> Bill, you've got me scratching my head on this one. If you mean that the
> table saw disk is more dangerous because it isn't shrouded, I suppose one
> could make that case. But "thrown"?

Yes, for one, it isn't shrouded. And if you push the work into the
rising part of the disc, you hand will be "flung", no? The spinning
disk concerns me a bit more than the grit, but admittedly, I haven't
tried it.


>
> Note that even a table saw can only throw a piece of wood if the wood
> hits the rising back part of the blade. You will only try to sand on the
> rising part of a sanding disk *once*.

Yes, that's the time I meant. With a large workpiece, I could see it
happening by accident.


It will try to lift the wood,
> albeit with much less force than a toothed blade. But by the very
> mechanics of the sanding process, you would be standing to one side and
> hopefully holding the wood down.
>
> BTW, I'd much rather have my fingertip sanded than cut off - hmmm, I
> think I did sand a finger in high school wood class :-).

I watched a "gnarly" YouTube video last night of someone who did just
that. I didn't need to watch it to the end though! You could probably
find it without looking very hard. Surprisingly, the number of sanding
disc videos is *not* vast.

>
> In short, while any tool can injure you, I think a sanding disk, shrouded
> or not, is several orders of magnitude below a saw, a jointer, or even a
> drill press.

Well, I agreew with you on the saw and the jointer. I think a disc
sander belongs in there before the DP.

>
> Perhaps a little more practical experience before you write that book?

I'm working on it! Thank you for your assistance! : )

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 08:15:24 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Wait until you start using that nice new drill press of yours Bill. The
> first time it grabs the work piece out of your hand and whirls it around
> - usually taking one of your thumbs with it - you'll know.

I forgot that one :-). IIRC, I warned Bill about drilling partial holes
with a Forstner bit because it would try to move the wood. I lost 1mm
from my thumb bone learning that.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 2/27/2012 8:15 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
> .
>>
>> Well, I agreew with you on the saw and the jointer. I think a disc
>> sander belongs in there before the DP.
>>
>
>
> Wait until you start using that nice new drill press of yours Bill. The
> first time it grabs the work piece out of your hand and whirls it around -
> usually taking one of your thumbs with it - you'll know.
>


That reminds me of when I screw deck screws with my 'tiny' 10-Amp Dewalt
drill with tail. It has no clutch. When the screw gets seated you have
to be ready to let go of the handle! DAMHIKT! Nice drill! : )

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> On 2/27/2012 8:15 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Well, I agreew with you on the saw and the jointer. I think a disc
>>>> sander belongs in there before the DP.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wait until you start using that nice new drill press of yours Bill. The
>>> first time it grabs the work piece out of your hand and whirls
>>> it around - usually taking one of your thumbs with it - you'll know.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That reminds me of when I screw deck screws with my 'tiny' 10-Amp
>> Dewalt drill with tail. It has no clutch. When the screw gets seated
>> you have to be ready to let go of the handle! DAMHIKT! Nice drill!
>> : )
>
> I would not call your 10A drill tiny Bill. It's on the lower end, but still
> enough to give you a wrist twist. Wait until you get into one with 12-15A
> motor on it. Then... get it up over your head, drilling holes in floor
> joists, and at that blissfull moment when the thing grabs - just before the
> hole breaks through...That's usually when you say that you need to get a 90
> degree drill.

Wow, not being able to let go of the drill puts you at a distinct
disadvantage!

On 2/27/2012 11:25 PM, CW wrote:

>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In a shop that I used to work in, we had a 12" disk sander with 1 horse
> motor. It also had an aluminum disk. We used to grind steel, copper and
> tungsten. Never had a bit of problem with it. The flywheel action of a
> heavy disk will help if it is underpowered (it will keep it from
> stalling quite as quickly) but it is no big deal if you have the power.

I don't think a disk sander in a wood shop needs a ton of power or mass
to sand wood. My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe,
and an aluminum disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed
it down. The 6x48" belt is a bit underpowered, but I keep the belt
loose enough I can stop the belt w/o slowing down the motor. That helps
me so I don't get carried away trying to cut too fast. The belt could
use more power, the disk, not in the least.

I use 80 grit disks exclusively, learning years ago other grits were too
smooth or too rough. They last a long time. The disk is used for edge
sanding, particularly to the line on band sawn stuff. Also on end
grain. The belt sander, I think I use 60 grit almost exclusively,
sometimes 80 grit but the belt sander does quick work at 60 grit, and is
surprisingly smooth, ready for my almost totally dustless, quick
sanding, non-festering ROS. If it doesn't need 60 grit, I go right for
the ROS.

Speaking of belts, the 6x48" belt I glued together with super glue is
still holding fine, many miles on that sucker. I'll be changing the
belt before the sucker comes apart.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:

> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.

Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
issue?

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Jack wrote:
> On 2/27/2012 11:25 PM, CW wrote:
>
>>> And yes that 12" model will be good. BUT call them and be sure the disk
>>> is not aluminum. You want the disk to be heavy with lots of momentum.
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> In a shop that I used to work in, we had a 12" disk sander with 1 horse
>> motor. It also had an aluminum disk. We used to grind steel, copper and
>> tungsten. Never had a bit of problem with it. The flywheel action of a
>> heavy disk will help if it is underpowered (it will keep it from
>> stalling quite as quickly) but it is no big deal if you have the power.
>
> I don't think a disk sander in a wood shop needs a ton of power or mass
> to sand wood. My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and
> an aluminum disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it
> down. The 6x48" belt is a bit underpowered, but I keep the belt loose
> enough I can stop the belt w/o slowing down the motor. That helps me so
> I don't get carried away trying to cut too fast. The belt could use more
> power, the disk, not in the least.
>
> I use 80 grit disks exclusively, learning years ago other grits were too
> smooth or too rough. They last a long time. The disk is used for edge
> sanding, particularly to the line on band sawn stuff. Also on end grain.
> The belt sander, I think I use 60 grit almost exclusively, sometimes 80
> grit but the belt sander does quick work at 60 grit, and is surprisingly
> smooth, ready for my almost totally dustless, quick sanding,
> non-festering ROS. If it doesn't need 60 grit, I go right for the ROS.
>
> Speaking of belts, the 6x48" belt I glued together with super glue is
> still holding fine, many miles on that sucker. I'll be changing the belt
> before the sucker comes apart.
>

Thanks for sharing your experience! Anyone have a 12 Disc sander that
they would recommend. I may wait until I get a TS, and try the
Woodcraft "disc sander accessory" Larry Blanchard recommended for it
($18.99). Its still doesn't quite feel right, but the price makes it
difficult to not consider... in the meantime, I have rasps and files.

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:
>
>> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
>> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.
>
> Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
> disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
> aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
> issue?
>


Just curious, do you think that Woodcraft $18.99 disc sander (TS
accessory) maintains it's shape after you use it a bit? To me, it seems
unlikely, but you're the one who owns one. Seems like a nice idea if it
works. Are you think about trading up?

On 2/28/2012 7:39 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:
>
>> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
>> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.
>
> Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
> disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
> aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
> issue?

My aluminum disk has been working fine since around 1976 and hasn't
warped. I don't think it even gets hot, or at least I never noticed it.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/28/2012 8:06 PM, Bill wrote:
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:
>>
>>> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
>>> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.
>>
>> Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
>> disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
>> aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
>> issue?

> Just curious, do you think that Woodcraft $18.99 disc sander (TS
> accessory) maintains it's shape after you use it a bit? To me, it seems
> unlikely, but you're the one who owns one. Seems like a nice idea if it
> works. Are you think about trading up?

I dunno, but, before I had the combo sander, I had made a plywood disk
for my TS that I stuck a sanding disk on. It worked, but sucked the big
one. Way too much speed for sanding. That was my only experience, but
I would not recommend a TS as a sander.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:25:20 -0500, Jack wrote:

> Way too much speed for sanding.

Now *that* might be a valid point. I haven't seen a problem yet, but
since I'm just using the flat side for roughing, and the tapered side
only contacts the work about 3%-4% of a revolution (10 degrees or less
out of 360) I probably wouldn't.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 2/29/2012 3:15 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:25:20 -0500, Jack wrote:
>
>> Way too much speed for sanding.
>
> Now *that* might be a valid point. I haven't seen a problem yet, but
> since I'm just using the flat side for roughing, and the tapered side
> only contacts the work about 3%-4% of a revolution (10 degrees or less
> out of 360) I probably wouldn't.

I agree with Jack. I bought one of those things about 12 years ago and used it
once. The disc turns WAY too fast.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Steve Turner wrote:
> On 2/29/2012 3:15 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:25:20 -0500, Jack wrote:
>>
>>> Way too much speed for sanding.
>>
>> Now *that* might be a valid point. I haven't seen a problem yet, but
>> since I'm just using the flat side for roughing, and the tapered side
>> only contacts the work about 3%-4% of a revolution (10 degrees or less
>> out of 360) I probably wouldn't.
>
> I agree with Jack. I bought one of those things about 12 years ago and
> used it once. The disc turns WAY too fast.


It should seem slower if one moves from the outside to the inside edge.
In fact, if you move close enough to the center, it should stop! ; )

While we're on the topic of rpms: How come the measurements 3450 and
1725 rpm occur as frequently as they do in power tool rpms? Why not 3600
instead, for instance? I suspect there is a good rationale for those
numbers. Can anyone shed any light on this (60Hz?)?

I would not call your 10A drill tiny Bill. It's on the lower end, but still
enough to give you a wrist twist. Wait until you get into one with 12-15A
motor on it. Then... get it up over your head, drilling holes in floor
joists, and at that blissfull moment when the thing grabs - just before the
hole breaks through...That's usually when you say that you need to get a 90
degree drill.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was on a ladder drilling a 3 1/2" hole for a plumbing vent in the top
plates. I hit a nail, or something. (it's been a while)
It was a big slow rpm drill, with no clutch.

It picked me off the ladder and spun me around 2 or 3 times, then the cord
unplugged from wrapping around me. Glad that happened, when it did.
I now have much more respect for big drills and big bits.

-- Jim in NC

On 2/28/2012 6:39 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:30:41 -0500, Jack wrote:
>
>> My 10" disk combo machine has a 1/2hp motor I believe, and an aluminum
>> disk, and I never stalled out the disk, or even slowed it down.
>
> Sanding can generate a lot of heat, much of which is transferred to the
> disk itself. Would anyone who knows the physics tell me/us whether the
> aluminum or steel disk is more likely to warp? Or if I'm imagining a non-
> issue?
>


I have a Delta 1/2" hp 12" iron disk sander. I have come close to
stalling it but then again I don't pussy foot around when sanding. I
would not worry so much about heat as not having the mass to plow
through the process. I use my disk sand strictly for shaping.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:26:18 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>> Of course you're the bad guy. You want to make a whopping $22.01 for
>> only half a day's work, you ripoff. (Using the lady's full real name
>> on the group, viewable worldwide, was probaly not the best idea in the
>> world. QUICK, change the name of the file.)
>
>"Cricket" is the name of the game.

Oh, OK. I thought it sounded rather Buffyesque, Biff.


>>> It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
>>> I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
>>> Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
>>> uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
>>> reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
>>> dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
>>> good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).
>>
>> No table or band saw? They'd be my first choice tools.
>
>Yes, I have a band saw. I don't mind hand-sawing either.
>The choice would not matter if I had a disk sander! : )

Do you have a 4-1/2" angle grinder with a flap disc? Use it upside
down or chucked into the vise, carefully.


>>> Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
>>> Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
>>> seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
>>> Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
>>> already have one!<sniffle>"? : )
>>
>> Go for it!
>
>Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?

I bought a Delta 1" belt and 6" disc combo and just love it for all
sorts of things. It's my sander and grinder. I later bought an
oscillating sander for edges. I also use my angle grinders, ROS, and
very unoccasionally, the old B&D Plastic Belt Sandah.


>This looks like a "starter model":
>http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Sander-4-x-36-Belt-6-Disc/G0547
>
>This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?

Define "working". What, precisely, do you intend to do with the
machine?


20" disc sanders are great...if you're not on a budget. (Other than
our rich Texicus Twins, I don't know anyone at all who fits that
description.)

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:04:05 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
>drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
>said I could.
>
>Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
>posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
>laminated base 12" long.
>
>Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
>I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).
>
>I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
>how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
>dimensioned drawing! ; ) I Guess I should count my blessings, a year
>ago, I would have had to say I didn't have a drill press. But honestly,
>I'm still able think up my own projects fast enough, TYVM! : )

Oops, change "Swingy" in my reply to "Bill".
Thank you.

The Management.

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein