Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill you
have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community theatre
production of Fiddler on the Roof. They need 4-6 cheap, basic
"farmhouse" tables; folding plastic tables won't cut it.
I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped up:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
The tables would be built of 1x6 pine and some sort of square stock for
the legs. Two of them would be roughly 2' x 4', the others maybe 2' x
2'. The legs should be removable for storage.
Quick and dirty is the order of the day. As they explained, these will
never be seen at a distance closer than 30' and hey, Tevye was a poor
man. I have a few questions.
Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way, but
would it be adequate?
While the tables need only look good at a distance, I have suggested to
them that the end grain on the table edge will get beaten up over time.
They would probably keep the tables for future (stage) use. I'd like to
put on some sort of edge, maybe 1x2 maple, oriented horizontally
(meaning, as an extension of the 3/4" thick pine edge). But I don't have
a biscuit joiner. I do have a router, and yes, I suppose I could rout
biscuit slots, but each little thing like that adds time; time I don't
really have. I'm wondering if pocket screws would be a good solution, or
might they split the wood edging? Or is this yet another situation in
which wood movement would rear it's ugly head and lead to problems later
on?
How do I fasten the table tops to the frames? I've read about the little
clips that go in grooves in the apron, but is there some method that
would accommodate movement without making grooves? Should I just tell
them to use plywood instead? We'd have to edge all around then, but I
know how to do that.
Finishing:
For all I know, they are expecting to paint these; they paint and
repaint more or less everything for each show. But I'm thinking that one
of those MinWax all-in-one stain/poly things would be just the ticket
for speed and 30' viewing distance. :)
These are friends of mine, by the way, and my wife and daughter will be
in the production.
As always, be gentle. :)
Don't worry about expansion and contraction anywhere, as for as single boar=
d's splitting/checking. Secure whatever parts for max rough usage, olde ti=
me usage. If there are any splits/checks, later, because of expansion/cont=
raction, they will only add character to the olde time scenario you're shoo=
ting for. It/They will not likely split or check, so grossly, that it/they=
will compromise the table's use.
Sonny
On 4/8/2013 12:51 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill you
> have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community theatre
> production of Fiddler on the Roof. They need 4-6 cheap, basic
> "farmhouse" tables; folding plastic tables won't cut it.
>
> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
> a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped
> up:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
>
> The tables would be built of 1x6 pine and some sort of square stock for
> the legs. Two of them would be roughly 2' x 4', the others maybe 2' x
> 2'. The legs should be removable for storage.
>
> Quick and dirty is the order of the day. As they explained, these will
> never be seen at a distance closer than 30' and hey, Tevye was a poor
> man. I have a few questions.
>
> Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
> know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way, but
> would it be adequate?
>
> While the tables need only look good at a distance, I have suggested to
> them that the end grain on the table edge will get beaten up over time.
> They would probably keep the tables for future (stage) use. I'd like to
> put on some sort of edge, maybe 1x2 maple, oriented horizontally
> (meaning, as an extension of the 3/4" thick pine edge). But I don't have
> a biscuit joiner. I do have a router, and yes, I suppose I could rout
> biscuit slots, but each little thing like that adds time; time I don't
> really have. I'm wondering if pocket screws would be a good solution, or
> might they split the wood edging? Or is this yet another situation in
> which wood movement would rear it's ugly head and lead to problems later
> on?
>
> How do I fasten the table tops to the frames? I've read about the little
> clips that go in grooves in the apron, but is there some method that
> would accommodate movement without making grooves? Should I just tell
> them to use plywood instead? We'd have to edge all around then, but I
> know how to do that.
>
> Finishing:
> For all I know, they are expecting to paint these; they paint and
> repaint more or less everything for each show. But I'm thinking that one
> of those MinWax all-in-one stain/poly things would be just the ticket
> for speed and 30' viewing distance. :)
>
> These are friends of mine, by the way, and my wife and daughter will be
> in the production.
>
> As always, be gentle. :)
>
Good sketchup.
Forget the ends. Do it simple.
Avoid the stain/poly in one. Awful to work with.
Painting for each show is over kill for sure.
you might want some cross bracing at the corners to stiffen things up.
Don't sweat it.The brace in the center does not and should not be the
same size as the skirt.
--
Jeff
On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:16:35 -0400, Greg Guarino <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 4/8/2013 1:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>> Figure 8's would work well.
>>
>> http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/figure8tabletopfastenerspk12.aspx
>
>That looks easy enough. Screws short enough not to poke through 3/4"
>material are strong enough to hold the top on securely? Again I'm
>concerned that these tables will be carried around a lot by their edges.
Yeah, but they cause cancer...
On Monday, April 8, 2013 9:51:02 AM UTC-7, Greg Guarino wrote:
> Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill you=20
>=20
> have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community theatre=
=20
>=20
great project and nice work on sketch-up. Some of my most fulfilling projec=
ts were making quick and dirty props from my daughters' theater productions=
.
1. The top, just use battens on the underside. Leave a good 1/4 gap in the =
boards and glue nail a 1 x 3 across the bottom in two or three places.
2. Build the apron as a frame and have pocket holes on the inside face of t=
he long edges in a few places and just screw the top on like that.
3. For removable legs, I would build the legs as a bent. So two legs with a=
horizontal piece of the same material running across between them. Assumin=
g 1 1/2" material, then on the underside of the table add another apron boa=
rd 1 1/2" inside the end apron. Slip the two leg assembly into slot and hav=
e a single carriage bolt with a wing nut on the inside.
Make all the leg assemblies the same size. Make the carriage bolt hole at e=
xactly the center. Make the hole in the leg assembly a little oversize, the=
n any leg assembly fits any table.
4. Regarding color, I have found stage directors to be very particular. The=
y probably want some faux finish or paint. I would show them samples or ask=
them if they want to do it themselves. They will have painters for sure.
"Greg Guarino" wrote:
> Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill
> you have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community
> theatre production of Fiddler on the Roof. They need 4-6 cheap,
> basic "farmhouse" tables; folding plastic tables won't cut it.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Utility grade 1 x 4 and 1 x 6 lumber, a box of 8d finish nails
and your done.
Rip 1x6 to 1 x 4-1/2 for apron.
If you don't want to frame the legs, use 2x4 ripped to 2x3.
(I've done it both ways)
Bolt legs to apron using 1/4 x 20, hex head bolts with fender
washers and hex nuts.
Carriage bolts are a total loser when the joint has to be broken
down and re-assembled.
Let the theatre finish the color of their choice.
Have fun
Lew
"Mike Marlow" wrote:
> Let them paint them. Or paint them what ever color they want, with
> the cheapest paint you can find.
-------------------------------
> "Opps paint" comes to mind.
>
> Yup!
---------------------------------------------------
When you stop and think about it, once the tablesaw work
is done, this becomes almost a Cub Scout project.
Lew
On 4/8/2013 11:51 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill you
> have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community theatre
> production of Fiddler on the Roof. They need 4-6 cheap, basic
> "farmhouse" tables; folding plastic tables won't cut it.
>
> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
> a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped
> up:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
Good Job!
>
> The tables would be built of 1x6 pine and some sort of square stock for
> the legs. Two of them would be roughly 2' x 4', the others maybe 2' x
> 2'. The legs should be removable for storage.
>
> Quick and dirty is the order of the day. As they explained, these will
> never be seen at a distance closer than 30' and hey, Tevye was a poor
> man. I have a few questions.
>
> Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
> know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way, but
> would it be adequate?
Absolutely. Keep in mind thet the top will expand and contract across
the width of the panel so attachment to the aprons will be more of an issue.
>
> While the tables need only look good at a distance, I have suggested to
> them that the end grain on the table edge will get beaten up over time.
> They would probably keep the tables for future (stage) use. I'd like to
> put on some sort of edge, maybe 1x2 maple, oriented horizontally
> (meaning, as an extension of the 3/4" thick pine edge). But I don't have
> a biscuit joiner. I do have a router, and yes, I suppose I could rout
> biscuit slots, but each little thing like that adds time; time I don't
> really have. I'm wondering if pocket screws would be a good solution, or
> might they split the wood edging? Or is this yet another situation in
> which wood movement would rear it's ugly head and lead to problems later
> on?
For quick and dirty I suggest leaving the end grain exposed for reason
you and I have mentioned, the expansion and contraction will pose a real
problem. Typically bread board ends allwo form movement but that is a
design and assembly process that is more complicated than simply
attaching a board on the end.
>
> How do I fasten the table tops to the frames? I've read about the little
> clips that go in grooves in the apron, but is there some method that
> would accommodate movement without making grooves? Should I just tell
> them to use plywood instead? We'd have to edge all around then, but I
> know how to do that.
Figure 8's would work well.
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/figure8tabletopfastenerspk12.aspx
>
> Finishing:
> For all I know, they are expecting to paint these; they paint and
> repaint more or less everything for each show. But I'm thinking that one
> of those MinWax all-in-one stain/poly things would be just the ticket
> for speed and 30' viewing distance. :)
>
> These are friends of mine, by the way, and my wife and daughter will be
> in the production.
>
> As always, be gentle. :)
>
I would find out what they really want. Stain on pine typically
requires a sanding sealer and a varnish. You may just want to use a
milk paint, decent coverage and easy to apply.
Greg Guarino wrote:
> Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill you
> have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community
> theatre production of Fiddler on the Roof. They need 4-6 cheap, basic
> "farmhouse" tables; folding plastic tables won't cut it.
>
> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I
> have a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I
> whipped up:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
>
> The tables would be built of 1x6 pine and some sort of square stock
> for the legs. Two of them would be roughly 2' x 4', the others maybe 2' x
> 2'. The legs should be removable for storage.
>
> Quick and dirty is the order of the day. As they explained, these will
> never be seen at a distance closer than 30' and hey, Tevye was a poor
> man. I have a few questions.
>
> Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
> know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way,
> but would it be adequate?
>
> While the tables need only look good at a distance, I have suggested
> to them that the end grain on the table edge will get beaten up over
> time. They would probably keep the tables for future (stage) use. I'd
> like to put on some sort of edge, maybe 1x2 maple, oriented horizontally
> (meaning, as an extension of the 3/4" thick pine edge). But I don't
> have a biscuit joiner. I do have a router, and yes, I suppose I could rout
> biscuit slots, but each little thing like that adds time; time I don't
> really have. I'm wondering if pocket screws would be a good solution,
> or might they split the wood edging? Or is this yet another situation
> in which wood movement would rear it's ugly head and lead to problems
> later on?
>
> How do I fasten the table tops to the frames? I've read about the
> little clips that go in grooves in the apron, but is there some
> method that would accommodate movement without making grooves? Should I
> just tell
> them to use plywood instead? We'd have to edge all around then, but I
> know how to do that.
>
> Finishing:
> For all I know, they are expecting to paint these; they paint and
> repaint more or less everything for each show. But I'm thinking that
> one of those MinWax all-in-one stain/poly things would be just the ticket
> for speed and 30' viewing distance. :)
>
> These are friends of mine, by the way, and my wife and daughter will
> be in the production.
>
> As always, be gentle. :)
Prop tables, right? Knockdown legs, right?
I would attach the top boards to the aprons with one screw centered in each
slat at each end. Leave 1/8 or so space between the slats, handy for
sweeping crumbs off for the dog. You now need to get legs on it.
I would rip up whitewood 2x4s for the legs (look for the heavy ones, they
are fir). I would attach the legs with 1/4" carriage bolts, one bolt per
side of each leg; use two per side if you just gotta.. Put fender washers
and wingnuts on the inside ends of the bolts. You now have a knockdown
table.
Will it be sturdy enough? Well, as I write this I am sitting at a
"temporary" table, 24" x 72", that I made at least 12 years ago. I use it
daily. It essentially the same except that the legs are full 2x4s, the top
is mel board and the aprons are attached to the legs with two screws through
each side instead of bolts. One of these days I am going to get started on
my mahogany desk...:)
I also have a return. It too is "temporary", same age. It has 1x4 legs
instead of 2x4. There is a 1x4 stretcher across each end near the floor and
another across them, end to end.
I would totally forget about edging the end grain. It isn't going to get
beat up.
I would also forget about finishing it (unless they specify something). In
a few months the bare wood (like my temporary stuff) will age very nicely to
tobacco brown..
If you are worried about the heads of the carriage bolts showing, make them
a design feature with matte black paint. Alternatively, bury and plug them.
If you are still worried about the carriage bolts holding stuff up/together,
you could skinny down the top edges of the legs where the aprons will be by
1/4" or so.
FWIW, if you have access to it, Douglas fir would be better than (white?)
pine.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
In article <[email protected]>,
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>On 4/8/2013 11:51 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>
>> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
>> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
>> a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped
>> up:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
>
>Good Job!
Seconded.
>> Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
>> know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way, but
>> would it be adequate?
Frankly, I'd just nail them onto the apron and not even bother joining
them together. Nobody in the audience will see the nail heads.
Expansion and contraction will be a problem in the long run, but not
for the run of a play.
Or were you planning to keep these tables permanently after the play is over?
If so, I would build it by making cleats on the inside. Drill over-sized
holes in the cleats and then screw the top on from beneath. The over-sized
holes will allow the screws to move back and forth as the top expands and
contracts. I would also join the top slats together.
As for making the legs removable; you could use table leg brackets
which would let you remove them by just undoing one nut. You'd
have to change your design slightly. See step 14 of
http://www.instructables.com/id/Expandable-formal-dining-table-that-seats-ten-and-/
for some pictures of table leg brackets in use.
Otherwise, I'd just use some sort of knock-down hardware. I'm rather
fond of threaded inserts myself.
>> While the tables need only look good at a distance, I have suggested to
>> them that the end grain on the table edge will get beaten up over time.
>For quick and dirty I suggest leaving the end grain exposed for reason
>you and I have mentioned, the expansion and contraction will pose a real
>problem.
Agreed. Besides, the tables are supposed to look rustic. A poor man
wouldn't have tables finished with maple edging.
>
>Figure 8's would work well.
>
>http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/figure8tabletopfastenerspk12.aspx
Actually, I like that idea better than cleats.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
On 4/8/2013 2:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Prop tables, right? Knockdown legs, right?
Yes.
> I would attach the top boards to the aprons with one screw centered in each
> slat at each end. Leave 1/8 or so space between the slats, handy for
> sweeping crumbs off for the dog. You now need to get legs on it.
I assume this method is to allow the wood to expand into the gaps with
the weather. That's clever, but the table tops won't only need to be
strong enough to hold stuff up, they will carried on and off stage by
the lip, hurriedly, repeatedly, in the dark and without much careful
handling.
> I would rip up whitewood 2x4s for the legs (look for the heavy ones, they
> are fir). I would attach the legs with 1/4" carriage bolts, one bolt per
> side of each leg; use two per side if you just gotta.. Put fender washers
> and wingnuts on the inside ends of the bolts. You now have a knockdown
> table.
That's pretty much what I was thinking.
>
> I would totally forget about edging the end grain. It isn't going to get
> beat up.
OK.
> I would also forget about finishing it (unless they specify something). In
> a few months the bare wood (like my temporary stuff) will age very nicely to
> tobacco brown..
I don't know what color they want, but I suspect it won't be "brand-new
pine". Dark and old-looking is more likely. It won't be very old
(naturally, anyway) by the performance dates.
> If you are worried about the heads of the carriage bolts showing, make them
> a design feature with matte black paint. Alternatively, bury and plug them.
Shiny nickel would be bad, but we could paint them.
> If you are still worried about the carriage bolts holding stuff up/together,
> you could skinny down the top edges of the legs where the aprons will be by
> 1/4" or so.
I'm not worried about it. I like overbuilding things, but they
"specified" 1x6 aprons. I'll be able to put two bolts in 4" apart. That
should keep them pretty stable.
> FWIW, if you have access to it, Douglas fir would be better than (white?)
> pine.
>
Thanks.
On 4/8/2013 12:01 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> On 4/8/2013 11:51 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>
>>> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
>>> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
>>> a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped
>>> up:
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
>>
>> Good Job!
>
> Seconded.
>
>>> Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
>>> know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way, but
>>> would it be adequate?
>
> Frankly, I'd just nail them onto the apron and not even bother joining
> them together. Nobody in the audience will see the nail heads.
> Expansion and contraction will be a problem in the long run, but not
> for the run of a play.
>
> Or were you planning to keep these tables permanently after the play is over?
>
> If so, I would build it by making cleats on the inside. Drill over-sized
> holes in the cleats and then screw the top on from beneath. The over-sized
> holes will allow the screws to move back and forth as the top expands and
> contracts. I would also join the top slats together.
>
>
> As for making the legs removable; you could use table leg brackets
> which would let you remove them by just undoing one nut. You'd
> have to change your design slightly. See step 14 of
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Expandable-formal-dining-table-that-seats-ten-and-/
> for some pictures of table leg brackets in use.
>
> Otherwise, I'd just use some sort of knock-down hardware. I'm rather
> fond of threaded inserts myself.
>
>
>>> While the tables need only look good at a distance, I have suggested to
>>> them that the end grain on the table edge will get beaten up over time.
>
>> For quick and dirty I suggest leaving the end grain exposed for reason
>> you and I have mentioned, the expansion and contraction will pose a real
>> problem.
>
> Agreed. Besides, the tables are supposed to look rustic. A poor man
> wouldn't have tables finished with maple edging.
>
>
>>
>> Figure 8's would work well.
>>
>> http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/figure8tabletopfastenerspk12.aspx
>
> Actually, I like that idea better than cleats.
>
>
isn't this why they invented hanger bolts and t-nuts?
Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 4/8/2013 2:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Prop tables, right? Knockdown legs, right?
>
> Yes.
>
>> I would attach the top boards to the aprons with one screw centered
>> in each slat at each end. Leave 1/8 or so space between the slats,
>> handy for sweeping crumbs off for the dog. You now need to get legs
>> on it.
>
> I assume this method is to allow the wood to expand into the gaps with
> the weather. That's clever, but the table tops won't only need to be
> strong enough to hold stuff up, they will carried on and off stage by
> the lip, hurriedly, repeatedly, in the dark and without much careful
> handling.
So use two screws at the end of each. Not to worry about them
expanding/contracting themselves off the aprons, they won't; the shank holes
might enlarge slightly but that's about it. One caveat: put them on the
aprons with the concave side down.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> On 4/8/2013 11:51 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>
>>> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
>>> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
>>> a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped
>>> up:
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
>>
>> Good Job!
>
> Seconded.
I agree.
>>> Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
>>> know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way, but
>>> would it be adequate?
>
> Frankly, I'd just nail them onto the apron and not even bother joining
> them together. Nobody in the audience will see the nail heads.
> Expansion and contraction will be a problem in the long run, but not
> for the run of a play.
>
> Or were you planning to keep these tables permanently after the play is over?
>
> If so, I would build it by making cleats on the inside. Drill over-sized
> holes in the cleats and then screw the top on from beneath. The over-sized
> holes will allow the screws to move back and forth as the top expands and
> contracts. I would also join the top slats together.
>
>
> As for making the legs removable; you could use table leg brackets
> which would let you remove them by just undoing one nut. You'd
> have to change your design slightly. See step 14 of
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Expandable-formal-dining-table-that-seats-ten-and-/
> for some pictures of table leg brackets in use.
>
Another option for the legs is to put 2 vertical cleats on the apron next to
each leg to trap it in place. The leg will then simply slip in & out of the pocket.
You could secure it with a removable pin or dowel if needed
If the stretcher between the long aprons can be modified to allow storage of the
legs within the table body the prop guys would bless you. Adding a bungee cord
or two would be one way to keep all the parts together.
Art
On 4/8/2013 11:51 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill you
> have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community theatre
> production of Fiddler on the Roof. They need 4-6 cheap, basic
> "farmhouse" tables; folding plastic tables won't cut it.
>
> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
> a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped
> up:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
>
> The tables would be built of 1x6 pine and some sort of square stock for
> the legs. Two of them would be roughly 2' x 4', the others maybe 2' x
> 2'. The legs should be removable for storage.
>
> Quick and dirty is the order of the day. As they explained, these will
> never be seen at a distance closer than 30' and hey, Tevye was a poor
> man. I have a few questions.
>
...
I'd do basically exactly what you've drawn and build it by nothing more
than nailing it together and then nailing on the top--I'd not even
bother to join the boards; only joint the edges so they do fit flush
together. You might put a cross piece under the top on the 2x4 one for
a little more rigidity.
For the size you're talking about there's not enough movement that it's
going to matter. As for the legs, to have them removable, the quick 'n
dirty is to simply bore for a carriage bolt from side/end on the
assumption it'll be painted. Failing that, the one piece of actual work
would be to use apron brackets...
<http://www.wwhardware.com/jacob-holtz-apron-brackets-jhtablefasteners>
I've forgotten whether there's a scene where somebody is going to be
climbing up and dancing on one of these or not; I'm assuming not and
that they're just scenery to sit around and at most slap a beer stein
down onto. If need that kind of abuse then build the frame for it from
tubafor stock instead and actually join the corners w/ a stub tenon or
somesuch.
--
On 4/8/2013 6:10 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 4/8/2013 11:51 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> Pretend you have a small, poorly equipped shop and half the skill you
>> have. Someone asks you to help build some props for a community theatre
>> production of Fiddler on the Roof. They need 4-6 cheap, basic
>> "farmhouse" tables; folding plastic tables won't cut it.
>>
>> I decided to try my hand at learning the rudiments of SketchUp last
>> night, using their description of the prop tables as an exercise. I have
>> a little less hair than I did when I started, but this is what I whipped
>> up:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8630714216/lightbox/
>>
>> The tables would be built of 1x6 pine and some sort of square stock for
>> the legs. Two of them would be roughly 2' x 4', the others maybe 2' x
>> 2'. The legs should be removable for storage.
>>
>> Quick and dirty is the order of the day. As they explained, these will
>> never be seen at a distance closer than 30' and hey, Tevye was a poor
>> man. I have a few questions.
>>
> ...
> I'd do basically exactly what you've drawn and build it by nothing more
> than nailing it together and then nailing on the top--I'd not even
> bother to join the boards; only joint the edges so they do fit flush
> together. You might put a cross piece under the top on the 2x4 one for a
> little more rigidity.
>
> For the size you're talking about there's not enough movement that it's
> going to matter. As for the legs, to have them removable, the quick 'n
> dirty is to simply bore for a carriage bolt from side/end on the
> assumption it'll be painted. Failing that, the one piece of actual work
> would be to use apron brackets...
>
> <http://www.wwhardware.com/jacob-holtz-apron-brackets-jhtablefasteners>
>
> I've forgotten whether there's a scene where somebody is going to be
> climbing up and dancing on one of these or not; I'm assuming not and
> that they're just scenery to sit around and at most slap a beer stein
> down onto. If need that kind of abuse then build the frame for it from
> tubafor stock instead and actually join the corners w/ a stub tenon or
> somesuch.
Meant to add, slop some glue on the apron ends before nailing the box
together and add a screw or two later on to help on the end grain.
Check for square and place on flat surface before proceeding to remove
any twist.
Then add glue to the top of the apron frame and set the first top board
in place and nail it down. Put glue on edge of next one in turn and
angle your nails slightly towards the previous to bring edges into
contact. Repeat 'til done. Swab down the deck to remove the squeeze
out. Let glue dry--done. Shouldn't take but 30 min/each to get to this
point.
If you're really, really, concerned over the movement, don't glue the
two end aprons; just leave the nails--they'll have plenty of give in
soft pine over only a couple feet. I'd probably glue it down solid just
to make it rigid for the purpose--if it moves some, so what; it's rustic
anyway as somebody else said.
To finish up I'd take a 45 chamfer router bit and go 'round the edges
and leave about an 3/16" chamfer--that'll stop most of the dings you
mentioned worry about by not have the square corner. You might consider
cutting a 45 off the four corners to leave them about 2-3" so there's
not a sharp corner for somebody to bump/run into on stage. Can do that
on the two outside boards before assemble, of course, at the miter saw.
Doing the angle chop is faster than fairing a curve and accomplishes
the same purpose.
--
On 4/8/2013 1:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
...
> FWIW, if you have access to it, Douglas fir would be better than (white?)
> pine.
IMO too expensive for a amateur theater group and no need,
anyway...unless they are to actually have to hold up somebody dancing on
one or the like. And even there, the pine itself is plenty strong-enough.
Oh, just came to me---I think will find the 1x6 aprons too wide--will
look awfully klunky methinks altho I haven't scale-drawn it.
I'd try a mockup first; particularly the smaller...
--
Greg Guarino wrote:
>
> Quick and dirty is the order of the day. As they explained, these will
> never be seen at a distance closer than 30' and hey, Tevye was a poor
> man. I have a few questions.
>
> Can I simply pocket-screw the slats together to make the top panel? I
> know that's not the traditional way, the best way or the right way,
> but would it be adequate?
>
Yup. Or just nail them to the skirt. If you've ever seen real stage props
you'd crap at how crudely these things are made. Like they told you - they
will never be seen any closer than 30' and not from any good angles, and not
in any good light.
> While the tables need only look good at a distance, I have suggested
> to them that the end grain on the table edge will get beaten up over
> time. They would probably keep the tables for future (stage) use. I'd
> like to put on some sort of edge, maybe 1x2 maple, oriented horizontally
> (meaning, as an extension of the 3/4" thick pine edge). But I don't
> have a biscuit joiner. I do have a router, and yes, I suppose I could rout
> biscuit slots, but each little thing like that adds time; time I don't
> really have. I'm wondering if pocket screws would be a good solution,
> or might they split the wood edging? Or is this yet another situation
> in which wood movement would rear it's ugly head and lead to problems
> later on?
Forget about the edging Greg. Remember what you are building here. Stage
props. Remember what they told you. The end grain will be just fine.
>
> How do I fasten the table tops to the frames? I've read about the
> little clips that go in grooves in the apron, but is there some
> method that would accommodate movement without making grooves? Should I
> just tell
> them to use plywood instead? We'd have to edge all around then, but I
> know how to do that.
Just screw or nail the top to the skirt.
>
> Finishing:
> For all I know, they are expecting to paint these; they paint and
> repaint more or less everything for each show. But I'm thinking that
> one of those MinWax all-in-one stain/poly things would be just the ticket
> for speed and 30' viewing distance. :)
Let them paint them. Or paint them what ever color they want, with the
cheapest paint you can find.
>
> These are friends of mine, by the way, and my wife and daughter will
> be in the production.
>
> As always, be gentle. :)
You take all the fun out of it when you say that...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 4/8/2013 2:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Prop tables, right? Knockdown legs, right?
>
> Yes.
>
>> I would attach the top boards to the aprons with one screw centered
>> in each slat at each end. Leave 1/8 or so space between the slats,
>> handy for sweeping crumbs off for the dog. You now need to get legs
>> on it.
>
> I assume this method is to allow the wood to expand into the gaps with
> the weather. That's clever, but the table tops won't only need to be
> strong enough to hold stuff up, they will carried on and off stage by
> the lip, hurriedly, repeatedly, in the dark and without much careful
> handling.
Don't worry too much about that Greg. Stage hands handle props much better
than you may realize. Besides - you could nail it together with 6D nails
and it will be plenty strong enough for the task at hand.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
I made high school props for the 9 years my wife was the theatre director.
Did fiddler twice. Use sheet rock screws for everything. Screw the skirt
together, then screw the top slats to the skirt. Use 2x2's or 2x4's for
legs. When it's time to knock it down, just unscrew the legs. Paint it
brown then antique it with wiped on dark brown and/or black latex paint.
The audience won't be spending a lot of time looking at the specific props,
just the general appearance of the set.
"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Don't worry about expansion and contraction anywhere, as for as single
board's splitting/checking. Secure whatever parts for max rough usage, olde
time usage. If there are any splits/checks, later, because of
expansion/contraction, they will only add character to the olde time
scenario you're shooting for. It/They will not likely split or check, so
grossly, that it/they will compromise the table's use.
Sonny
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" wrote:
>> Let them paint them. Or paint them what ever color they want, with
>> the cheapest paint you can find.
> -------------------------------
> "Opps paint" comes to mind.
>
Yup!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
dadiOH wrote:
> Prop tables, right? Knockdown legs, right?
>
> I would attach the top boards to the aprons with one screw centered
> in each slat at each end. Leave 1/8 or so space between the slats,
> handy for sweeping crumbs off for the dog. You now need to get legs
> on it.
> I would rip up whitewood 2x4s for the legs (look for the heavy ones,
> they are fir). I would attach the legs with 1/4" carriage bolts, one
> bolt per side of each leg; use two per side if you just gotta.. Put
> fender washers and wingnuts on the inside ends of the bolts. You now
> have a knockdown table.
Second thoughts...
Bolts from each side would make it nice and solid. It also means you
couldn't take off the leg without removinng the bolt(s) from one side.
I think bolting from one side would still be enough. If not, make the bolt
holes in the leg sloppy side to side and put a plywood cam on the bolt apron
to force the leg tight to the non-bolt apron.
________________
Carriage bolts work well in hard wood, less well in something like pine
becuse the wood around the square part of the bolt shank gets deformed. Two
ways to mitigate that:
1. Insert bolt, take out and harden the wood where the square shank
was/will be with super glue.
2. Use a washer and nut on the bolt on the inside of the apron, drill a
shallow hole in the leg to fit over them.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
dpb wrote:
> On 4/8/2013 1:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> ...
>
>> FWIW, if you have access to it, Douglas fir would be better than
>> (white?) pine.
>
> IMO too expensive for a amateur theater group.
That rather depends upon where they are, no? DF isn't all that expensive in
the west.
> and no need,
> anyway...unless they are to actually have to hold up somebody dancing
> on one or the like. And even there, the pine itself is plenty
> strong-enough.
I wasn't thinking of strength, I was thinking of fastener holding ability;
particularly, carriage bolts.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 4/8/2013 1:48 PM, Leon wrote:
> Figure 8's would work well.
>
> http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/figure8tabletopfastenerspk12.aspx
That looks easy enough. Screws short enough not to poke through 3/4"
material are strong enough to hold the top on securely? Again I'm
concerned that these tables will be carried around a lot by their edges.
On 4/8/2013 6:30 PM, Sonny wrote:
> If there are any splits/checks, later, because of expansion/contraction, they will only add character to the olde time scenario you're shooting for.
This is a theatre group that does a different show every few months.
Today's shtetl antique might be tomorrow's suburban patio furniture.
We'll see.
On 4/8/2013 8:53 PM, dpb wrote:
> Oh, just came to me---I think will find the 1x6 aprons too wide--will
> look awfully klunky methinks altho I haven't scale-drawn it.
I thought that at first, but the sketch doesn't look too clumsy for a
rustic piece. Now could they save a few bucks by using 1x4 instead? I
may suggest it.
On 4/9/2013 7:24 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Carriage bolts work well in hard wood, less well in something like pine
> becuse the wood around the square part of the bolt shank gets deformed. Two
> ways to mitigate that:
>
> 1. Insert bolt, take out and harden the wood where the square shank
> was/will be with super glue.
>
> 2. Use a washer and nut on the bolt on the inside of the apron, drill a
> shallow hole in the leg to fit over them.
Interesting tip. I'll keep that in mind. I really need to find out if
they intend to make frequent and long-term use of these tables. If so I
may consider Tee-Nuts.
On 4/8/2013 8:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> Avoid the stain/poly in one. Awful to work with.
I did a test piece or two a while back and decided it didn't seem well
suited to nice furniture; too difficult to keep the coverage even,
mostly. But it went on easily enough. I thought it might be efficient
and adequate for this sort of use. In any case, one of the reasons I'm
even able to consider helping with this project is that the finishing
will be someone else's task.
> Painting for each show is over kill for sure.
Not for each performance, for each new production. Austrian villa in
June, cruise ship in November, shtetl a few months later.
> you might want some cross bracing at the corners to stiffen things up.
> Don't sweat it.The brace in the center does not and should not be the
> same size as the skirt.
I didn't think it did, but it's likely what will be around.
In article <[email protected]>, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>I made high school props for the 9 years my wife was the theatre director.
>Did fiddler twice. Use sheet rock screws for everything. Screw the skirt
>together, then screw the top slats to the skirt. Use 2x2's or 2x4's for
>legs. When it's time to knock it down, just unscrew the legs. Paint it
>brown then antique it with wiped on dark brown and/or black latex paint.
>The audience won't be spending a lot of time looking at the specific props,
>just the general appearance of the set.
Now, we're talking!
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>, Artemus <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>Another option for the legs is to put 2 vertical cleats on the apron next to
>each leg to trap it in place. The leg will then simply slip in & out of the pocket.
>You could secure it with a removable pin or dowel if needed
I was going to suggest the cleats for the legs, but I didn't think of
the pin. Good idea.
>If the stretcher between the long aprons can be modified to allow storage of the
>legs within the table body the prop guys would bless you.
This true. If you're going to keep it, think about storage as you design it.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/