Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
Thanks all,
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 18:38:20 -0800, "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I find the Norton to be
>rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
>sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
Use less, and it won't be as "thick". The oil should penetrate the
stone slightly as the blade is being worked over it. If the
manufacturer doesn't say to thin it, then why do so? Thinning might
defeat the purpose. Why not write to them and ask their opinion?
Otherwise, try mineral spirits.
"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote
> Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
> sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
For some notes about honing fluids, try a look at my web site - Sharpening
Notes - Fluids for Honing.
Jeff G
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net
Dot 3 Brake Fluid works well as a honing oil.
I've switched over to waterstones, but used to use
oil stones and brake fluid.
AAvK wrote:
> Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
> sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>
> Thanks all,
>
> --
> Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
> cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
> not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
George wrote:
> "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ewMPf.825$123.194@fed1read09...
> >
> > Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> > Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> > petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> > rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
> > sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
> >
>
> All "oils," vegetable or mineral are mixtures of various molecular weight
> ingredients. Take the mineral spirits and thin to get that perfect
> compromise between abrasion and float.
>
> Paraffin (wax) is just oil made of the heavier fractions.
My knowledge of organic chemistry is pretty sparce but from
what I remember:
There are different structures found in oils. In petroleum oils
a common base 'structure is a six carbon ring There are
aromatic, aliphatic and parraffinic molecules. In one of the
first two, I think it is aromatic, a typical ring is joined to more
than two others forming a chickenwire like structure. In a
Paraffinic molecule the rings are joined end-to-end by a single
bond from one carbon in one ring to a another carbon in the
next forming straight chains.
Thus two oil molecules with the same molecular weight can have
very different properties. Petroleum distilates may be characterized
by the proportion of one of these structures to the others thus
haing a high or low aromaticity or parafinicity.
Generaly speaking, paraffinic molecules make good lubricants.
Pennsylvania grade crude has a high paraffinicity, hence its
reputation for lubricating oils (e.g. Quaker State).
Kerosene, as I recall, has a high parafinicity. I don't know if
paraffin wax has a high paraffinicity. It would be ironic if it
did not.
--
FF
is like chickewire while a parrafinic structure is like a chain of
hexagons
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:U1VPf.5859$%[email protected]...
> AAvK wrote:
>> Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
>> Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene,
>
> ummmmmm. Kerosene... ummmmmm.
>
> Reminds me of jet fuel... <G> That's a bad smell?
>
> Barry
Jet A fuel is diesel. Clean and well filtered.
Dave
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ewMPf.825$123.194@fed1read09...
>
> Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
> sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>
All "oils," vegetable or mineral are mixtures of various molecular weight
ingredients. Take the mineral spirits and thin to get that perfect
compromise between abrasion and float.
Paraffin (wax) is just oil made of the heavier fractions.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> All "oils," vegetable or mineral are mixtures of various molecular weight
>> ingredients. Take the mineral spirits and thin to get that perfect
>> compromise between abrasion and float.
>>
>> Paraffin (wax) is just oil made of the heavier fractions.
>
> My knowledge of organic chemistry is pretty sparce but from
> what I remember:
>
Not bad. Aliphatic chains are mostly what we're talking about. The
aromatics feature the benzene ring, and the lighter ones are difficult if
not impossible to remove from various types of crude.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/H/Hydrocarbons.html
Differential distillation and cracking are used to produce the most valuable
fraction - gasoline. Crude oils contain more or less of the lighter
fractions and certain other elements such as sulfur in the much-maligned
sour "high sulfur oils." The oil industry benchmark "Brent crude", contains
a greater percentage of small stuff than heavy crude, based on average
molecular weight.
http://www.epa.gov/oilspill/oiltypes.htm Though it's interesting to note
the Pennsylvania propaganda, Texas crude is hardly asphalt, being lighter
than North Sea Brent overall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_crude
Your solvents tend to be light molecular weight, which is why they reduce
the viscosity of the oil they mix with. Paraffin wax, as indicated, is
primarily composed of 26-carbon chains, versus gasoline, which as we know
favors 8 (octane), therefore it, and other waxes are of lower volatility -
solid at room temperature - and may still contain other lower molecular
weight oils. Isomers, including cycloparaffin exist, and are tolerated in
some grades.
http://www.igiwax.com/wax_overview.shtml
You think we might refer to paraffin as "big oil?"
"Australopithecus scobis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 03:55:24 -0800, crane763 opined:
>
>> Dot 3 Brake Fluid works well as a honing oil.
>>
>
> Thanks. I have an old opened bottle of brake fluid in the garage. Now
> there's a use for it.
>
>
Briefly. Since DOT 3 is glycol based, it's hygroscopic and you might end up
using a water(ed) stone after all.
The DOT 5 stuff is silicone-based. More stable, but don't spill it on
something you're going to paint.
"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:jtIQf.1016$123.455@fed1read09...
>
>> Forget the expensive honing oil. Most of it is just mineral oil. You
>> can buy it on sale at Walgreens for $0.65/ pint. It comes in just the
>> right viscosity for honing.
>> Bugs
>>
>
> Right but is it thinner than Norton oil? Baby oil is real thin, is it
> like that?
>
Read the baby oil label. Mineral oil and fragrance. The stuff used as an
intestinal lubricant will normally be labeled "heavy" mineral oil, and will
give more float than cut.
On 9 Mar 2006 06:02:01 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>George wrote:
>> "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:ewMPf.825$123.194@fed1read09...
>> >
>> > Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
>> > Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
>> > petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
>> > rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
>> > sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>> >
>>
>> All "oils," vegetable or mineral are mixtures of various molecular weight
>> ingredients. Take the mineral spirits and thin to get that perfect
>> compromise between abrasion and float.
>>
>> Paraffin (wax) is just oil made of the heavier fractions.
>
>My knowledge of organic chemistry is pretty sparce but from
>what I remember:
>
>There are different structures found in oils. In petroleum oils
>a common base 'structure is a six carbon ring There are
>aromatic, aliphatic and parraffinic molecules. In one of the
>first two, I think it is aromatic, a typical ring is joined to more
>than two others forming a chickenwire like structure. In a
>Paraffinic molecule the rings are joined end-to-end by a single
>bond from one carbon in one ring to a another carbon in the
>next forming straight chains.
>
>Thus two oil molecules with the same molecular weight can have
>very different properties. Petroleum distilates may be characterized
>by the proportion of one of these structures to the others thus
>haing a high or low aromaticity or parafinicity.
>
>Generaly speaking, paraffinic molecules make good lubricants.
>Pennsylvania grade crude has a high paraffinicity, hence its
>reputation for lubricating oils (e.g. Quaker State).
>
>Kerosene, as I recall, has a high parafinicity. I don't know if
>paraffin wax has a high paraffinicity. It would be ironic if it
>did not.
I visited an oil refinery in Bradford, PA, when I was about 7 years
old on a field trip with my parents when they were in college. I
remember the guide saying that Pennsylvania oil was paraffin based and
Texas oil was asphalt based. I've remembered that all these years, and
made my motor oil buying decisions based on it.
I'm glad to read your notes which confirm my memory (I've never
bothered to look it up because my knowledge of organic chemistry is
sparser than yours by an order of magnitude, so I doubt I'd understand
the answer). So call me stupid.
In addition to Quaker State, there's Pennzoil and Wolf's Head (if
they're still around), and I believe Castrol is a paraffin oil, as
well. Valvoline might be, too.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
> No clue about Norton oil. I have never used it. I do use Japanese
> camilla oil and sometimes the oil for air compressors. Both are quite
> fluid and work well IMO, on many stones. As it happens, I do most of
> my sharpening on waterstones, so the oil thing is a sideline.
Norton oil is nice, you can lube all kindza basic things with it, door hinges, manual
egg beater drills, electric fan spindle bearings too, but it seems to be too thick for
sharpening on a stone. The camellia is too expensive for that but I am curious about
that compressor oil, is it like really thin stuff? Maybe a little thicker than mineral
spirits or kerosene?
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
--
Stoutman
http://www.garagewoodworks.com
(Featuring a NEW look)
"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ewMPf.825$123.194@fed1read09...
>
> Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
> sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>
Ethyl Acetate?
Jeff (and why isn't it Geoff),
I spent a couple years in England, office in London, house in Tring, and
still have fond memories of those trips to the 'iron monger' who wouldn't
sell me that "you know that thing that you use for such and such" until I'd
learned the proper name for it. He helped me develop a rudimentry command
of the english language when it comes to what we call out here in the
colonies a hardware store. During my stay a wise old Brit once said to me,
"Giving the English language to the Americans is a bit like giving sex to
little children in that they somehow realize that its terribly important but
don't know quite what to do with it." I could only reply that if they'd
have managed their colonies properly in the first place, they wouldn't have
this problem.
Anyway, good to find your site.
"Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> > Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> > petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> > rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade
simply
> > sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>
> For some notes about honing fluids, try a look at my web site - Sharpening
> Notes - Fluids for Honing.
>
> Jeff G
>
> --
> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> email : Username is amgron
> ISP is clara.co.uk
> www.amgron.clara.net
>
>
Had to think about that a little more and yes, your oil should be soluble in
ethyl acetate (EtOAc). It has a fruity, estery smell. More pleasant than
petroleum based solvents.
Disclaimer: (to prevent a flame war)
Although fairly non-toxic, I will not make any other claims as to the safety
of EtOAc. Read MSDS before use. Use in a well ventilated area. Use at own
risk. etc...
--
Stoutman
http://www.garagewoodworks.com
(Featuring a NEW look)
This is why I ask, other than my experience with the oil's thickness. In this page
you can pick out some good details as to what is going on with oils for honing
and the differences in stones. If everyone in this threads reads all of it, you'll see
where I'm at with it, it is a really good read, and enlightening.
Page: "The joys of Arkansas stones":
http://home.pacifier.com/~davewe/The_Joys_of_Arkansas_Stones.htm
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 21:57:57 -0800, "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Had to think about that a little more and yes, your oil should be soluble in
>> ethyl acetate (EtOAc). It has a fruity, estery smell. More pleasant than petroleum based solvents.
It used to be called "pear drop", having that particular smell
associated with it.
Esters are OK in very minute quantity. Handle larger amounts with
care.
Incidentally, I have use ordinary xxWxx motor oil on ordinary
blackboard slate to sharpen chisels and knives so that I wouldn't want
to slip when handling them.
On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 18:38:20 -0800, "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
>Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
>petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
>rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
>sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>
>Thanks all,
No clue about Norton oil. I have never used it. I do use Japanese
camilla oil and sometimes the oil for air compressors. Both are quite
fluid and work well IMO, on many stones. As it happens, I do most of
my sharpening on waterstones, so the oil thing is a sideline.
On 09/03/2006 10:09 AM, Australopithecus scobis wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 03:55:24 -0800, crane763 opined:
>
>> Dot 3 Brake Fluid works well as a honing oil.
>>
>
> Thanks. I have an old opened bottle of brake fluid in the garage. Now
> there's a use for it.
It can be a pretty nasty paint remover. Don't spill on anything you care
about.
AAvK wrote:
> Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
> sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>
> Thanks all,
>
OMS, odorless mineral spirits, also used as oil paint thinner.
Ray
> For some notes about honing fluids, try a look at my web site - Sharpening
> Notes - Fluids for Honing.
>
> Jeff G
>
> --
> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> email : Username is amgron
> ISP is clara.co.uk
> www.amgron.clara.net
>
>
And some excellent reading from you, thank you kindly Mr. Gorman.
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
> Read the baby oil label. Mineral oil and fragrance. The stuff used as an
> intestinal lubricant will normally be labeled "heavy" mineral oil, and will give more float than cut.
>
Yes but Bugs is talking about "mineral oil" as plain, which could be any thickness,
and the same as Norton oil, not baby oil, which is the thinness needed. I want to
know about any differences. Norton calls theirs a "light mineral oil" (I read that
'somewhere' online), but it has more 'float than cut', something as thin as baby oil
would be great to find, especially without that nose burning parfum. LOL
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
> Forget the expensive honing oil. Most of it is just mineral oil. You
> can buy it on sale at Walgreens for $0.65/ pint. It comes in just the
> right viscosity for honing.
> Bugs
>
Right but is it thinner than Norton oil? Baby oil is real thin, is it like that?
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
Use scented lamp oil. Personally, I just use the kerosene.
"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ewMPf.825$123.194@fed1read09...
>
> Calling all neander sharpeners like myself, curious on how to thin down
> Norton oil without using stinky fumy kerosene, is there a real thin
> petroleum based product that would be perfect? I find the Norton to be
> rather too thick in many instances of flattening and honing, blade simply
> sliding over the stone, not effectively touching it, any advice please?
>
> Thanks all,
>
> --
> Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
> cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
> not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
>
>
> Use less, and it won't be as "thick". The oil should penetrate the
> stone slightly as the blade is being worked over it. If the
> manufacturer doesn't say to thin it, then why do so? Thinning might
> defeat the purpose. Why not write to them and ask their opinion?
> Otherwise, try mineral spirits.
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
>
Thanks for that but it seems using less which is possibly too little would
defeat the purpose of using the oil at all. It really has to be there in quantity
in order to keep the stone clear. Why not write them? Who could care to
wait that long when you need to get it done?
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
> Had to think about that a little more and yes, your oil should be soluble in
> ethyl acetate (EtOAc). It has a fruity, estery smell. More pleasant than petroleum based solvents.
>
> Disclaimer: (to prevent a flame war)
> Although fairly non-toxic, I will not make any other claims as to the safety of EtOAc. Read MSDS before use. Use in a well
> ventilated area. Use at own risk. etc...
> --
> Stoutman
> http://www.garagewoodworks.com
> (Featuring a NEW look)
>
Cool thanks for the fair warning.
--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
Teamcasa wrote:
> "B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Reminds me of jet fuel... <G> That's a bad smell?
>>
>> Barry
>
> Jet A fuel is diesel. Clean and well filtered.
>
Close enuff. <G>
Barry
On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:22:09 -0500, Doug Payne opined:
>>> Dot 3 Brake Fluid works well as a honing oil.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. I have an old opened bottle of brake fluid in the garage. Now
>> there's a use for it.
>
> It can be a pretty nasty paint remover. Don't spill on anything you care
> about.
Better and better! Now there are two uses for that old bottle. ;)
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
wreck20051219 at spambob.net