Skill with a Skill

<[email protected]> wrote

> And it has been years since I have seen a craftsman that is of the
> level of mastery that make me actually admire what he does. Not
> necessarily the work, but the way he goes about it; no lost motion, no
> unsure decisions, no extraneous activity, no loud talking, etc.

A good predictor of that .. and, while you would appreciate the single
biggest factor why this guy got the bid, many won't ... he simply asked the
right questions.

Amazing the depth of knowledge that one act can reveal. :)

(I had two bids that were lower than this crew, and one higher, and the
lowest $5K lower ... as you know, that's pretty damn hard to explain to a
client).

> Where did all those guys go?

Lost to the prevailing attitude that nobody but an idiot would put money
into a building where it can't be seen by a buyer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 6, 3:07=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yeah, Bubba ... and I'm damn glad of it.
>
> Don't want to sound non-PC, but good gawd almighty the difference!

I'll bet. What I wouldn't give to pull a cork with those guys.

Just last week I had to run off a carpentry crew that was rebuilding a
roof section that was collapsing on my job. These were "experts" and
"professionals" that had been "doing it all their lives".

The final straw was that we were to shim a roof joists (nearly flat
roof) to take out the dip in one corner of the roof. So we needed
straight wedges 60" long, 7/8" to nothing. Then one 3/4" to nothing,
etc., while getting shorter all the while. Then we needed to feather
out the shims as needed around the low spot across the rest of the
joists, kind of like a sunburst.

Those guys screwed around trying to cut those wedges for more than an
hour. What a waste of time. The head banana said to me "well, if it
is so fucking easy, why don't you do it?"

OK.. they go something right, I'll admit it.

At 10:00 am I fired the carpenters and kept the helpers, went home,
got my nail bags, saw, cords, etc. and crawled my pudgy middle aged
ass up and down that ladder all day and did all of it myself with two
guys that couldn't read a tape, measure a board or cut. They hauled a
lot of material, but they couldn't speak but a little English, and
their Spanish wasn't all that great either.

At the end of the day, the cut out section of framing was replaced
(17' x 24' ), decked, 4 new skylights set, joist hangers nailed out
and bridging all set. All in a section that was 2 1/2" out of square
with a 2" sag in two different places.

20 years ago I wouldn't have hired someone that couldn't do that in a
day. But the job budget had TWO days allowance in it, allowing for
today's unqualified labor force. (I was glad there was a two day
allowance; I used the money I saved on ibuprofin!)

If I worked with some guys like you are describing I might tell
everyone I was joining the circus and leave with them.

How did you find them?

Robert

On Mar 6, 9:23=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> How lucky can you get ... =A0:)

Ask any contractor... he'll tell you...

YOU SUCK!

Sorry.... ;^)

A find like those guys only comes along once or twice. You know that.

> Bubba, I can tell you one thing for sure ... I wish like hell I had six m=
ore
> to build right this minute, with these two guys as bell cows, we'd be hel=
l
> to stop!

You know, the moon and stars haven't lined up that well for me over
the last few years. I have the work, but no qualified subs. I have
the subs, but not enough work to hold onto them for long.

And it has been years since I have seen a craftsman that is of the
level of mastery that make me actually admire what he does. Not
necessarily the work, but the way he goes about it; no lost motion, no
unsure decisions, no extraneous activity, no loud talking, etc.

Just set up, and go to work. Stop for lunch. Honestly take only 30
minutes. Give an additional material list if needed, a progress
report if asked, and a heads up on a possible problem. Stop work at
the end of the day (not rolling up 30 minutes before quitting time)
roll up, go home. At the job the next day with coffee in hand 20
minutes before starting time.

Where did all those guys go?

Robert

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:46:04 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Framing crew on a current construction project is being run by two union
>carpenters from Washington state. Both of these guys are "old school", to
>say the least (it's been years since I've seen exclusively 77's on a jobsite
>here in Texas, and these guys pulled seven out of the trailer, five for the
>"hired help", and a "personal" 77 a piece).
>

Still keep my 77 greased and ready to kick ass. It's the 1911 of
jobsite saws. I regret selling my Rockwell 315, which handled a lot
of the lighter chores.

The 77 is heavy but, if you use it right, it and gravity are your
friends.

Once we got the ribbons up we flopped up the joists and eyeballed the
cuts, holding the 77 vertical and the joist resting on our boots.
Would have made an OSHA dude crazy but it was a fast way to frame up
flat work.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:46:04 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Framing crew on a current construction project is being run by two union
>carpenters from Washington state. Both of these guys are "old school", to
>say the least (it's been years since I've seen exclusively 77's on a jobsite
>here in Texas, and these guys pulled seven out of the trailer, five for the
>"hired help", and a "personal" 77 a piece).

...I've recently dragged my 77 out for a couple of jobs and it's been
a *time* machine. I love that saw...it really is a part of my arm
when I'm using it...Swingman, you probably wouldn't like the way mine
looks, tho; there is *no* guard. I own three of them and all the
guards are in a little nook in the shop. I know, I know...but that's
how we learned out here on the "tracts" and anytime I use a circular
saw *with* a guard I feel I'm gonna hurt myself! I suppose if I were
on a "real" job (meaning one involving other workers and apt to get
OSHA inspections) I'd have to conform, though. Funny aside, I was at
a yard the other day at the counter. So I see this gizmo out of the
corner of my eye...you know, an impulse-buy display, and it was a
Skilsaw guard holder-upper. Well, I joked with the sales guy who's
about my age that I wouldn't be needing *that* anytime soon. He came
back with, "...yeah, there was a guy in here this morning who said
'...now, what do they think I'm going to do with my pencil?'"

>This morning, watched while one of them ripped a 4x12x20' cedar beam to
>width, to match two butting LVL's ... took less time to "rip" than to
>"report". No guide, no line, just a pencil mark to start, and a 'finger on
>edge' to guide the cut. Result: perfect match to the LVL's, and the 9/16"
>off cut does not vary by 1/32 for the entire 20' length.

...the man's been at it for awhile! The real advantage of that saw to
one who knows how to handle it is *speed*...gobs of power...I LOVE the
sound of Skilsaws in the morning!

>
>Try that with 20' 4x12 stock on your table saw!
>
>Can't express how good it is to see that type of "skill" is still being
>wielded once again in these parts ... notable/rare enough for picture proof:
>
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/A.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/B.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/C.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/D.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/E.jpg
>
>Even rarer these days : sit in a the construction trailer and listen to
>measurement 'call outs' in English, and SRV on the jobsite radio.
>
>Now, if only Paul Harvey would be around to signal lunch time ...

On 2009-03-08, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've been doing this usenet thing for more than a decade and this group,
> without a doubt, contains some of the most thinned skinned, crotchety,
> sense-of-humor-less....

I don't know. I thought your other post was hilarious. ;)

nb

On Mar 7, 3:11=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> It wasn't Robert that "expected" anything, it was the dude
> himself, who was hired to do the job, that expected it of himself as part=
of
> the job!

Exactly. Precisely. For this man, it was something that others here
obviously just don't get. It is a standard that he held himself to,
his own standard that goes beyond the norm. As seen here, it totally
escapes some - beyond their comprehension, and even their imagination.

The particular man I had in my mind's eye when I typed that just
thought that was the way the world worked. It was the way I was
expected to act when I started in the trades. It was that way before
me, and no doubt before that.

Years ago, there were NO acceptable excuses for being late. If you
were there every day on time (which my first boss considered 20
mintues before actually starting so he could get a head count while
you were getting your tools out), you were given a pass on that rare
day there was a traffic pile up, a sick kid, etc.

> I agree, it's not a prevailing attitude today, thus the discussion.

And how well any employer would understand that.

Robert

DGDevin wrote:
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> Still keep my 77 greased and ready to kick ass. It's the 1911 of
>> jobsite saws.
>
> Heh, well put.
>
>> The 77 is heavy but, if you use it right, it and gravity are your
>> friends.
>
> I noticed yesterday in a big-box store that their 77s were made in China. I
> wonder if some are still U.S.-made, or have they moved all their production
> overseas? I see quite a few on Craig's List for $80-90, some as low as $50.
> A 77 is on the list, I just want to find a nice clean one at the right
> price.

I have a good ol' USA-made 77 in cherry shape that I could sell you at
the right price, 'cept it ain't for sale. :-)

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Wow. I'll be sure to note for future reference that you have a short
> fuse to go along with being passive aggressive.
>
> Did I talk too loud? :-)

No, he got aggravated that you didn't take the time to understand what you
read and then compounded it by replying to something he didn't say.

Maybe you like responding to people who don't listen to what you're saying,
but most people don't.

"DGDevin" wrote

> That shows he left home early in case there was a traffic delay on the
> way, it demonstrates a commitment to the job that is often lacking in
> those who allow just barely enough time to get there a minute before
> starting time. It ain't the single most important quality in a worker, but
> things like that tend to be part of a pattern.

Very will put!

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Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"-MIKE-" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Stop work at
>> the end of the day (not rolling up 30 minutes before quitting time)
>> roll up, go home. At the job the next day with coffee in hand 20
>> minutes before starting time.
>>
>> Where did all those guys go?
>>
>> Robert
>
>
> Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that he might
> leave early?

Just like a drummer, used to showing up on the downbeat! <g>

No offense, Mike, but the change in times and attitude is nicely reflected
in your question. It wasn't Robert that "expected" anything, it was the dude
himself, who was hired to do the job, that expected it of himself as part of
the job!

I agree, it's not a prevailing attitude today, thus the discussion.

--
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Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Upscale wrote:

> Unfortunately, in a place where text is the sole language of
> communication along with the absence of inflections and body language
> to assist with that yukking it atmosphere that you're apparently
> missing, the few emoticons available (or lack there of) may be
> insufficient here for the bar scene that you're seeking.
>
> (I tried very hard to make that last paragraph one long sentence and
> still make sense.)

But you risk arousing the spelling/grammar police, and there's always a few
of them around. ;~)

<[email protected]> wrote

> The particular man I had in my mind's eye when I typed that just
> thought that was the way the world worked. It was the way I was
> expected to act when I started in the trades. It was that way before
> me, and no doubt before that.

Hell, and my recent IME, many of today's young worker's want to be patted on
the back and rewarded with a raise for just showing up.

Damn if we don't sound like a couple of old farts ... :)

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

-MIKE- wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> Just like a drummer, used to showing up on the downbeat! <g>
>>
>
> And please! We're the first one in and the last one out because of all
> this crap we have to haul. :-)

Yeah, and if we get stuck in traffic and *don't* get there before
everybody else, setup is a nightmare because you have to trip over
everybody else's junk and grouse at them to move it so there's enough
room to set up the drums!

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>> Stop work at
>>> the end of the day (not rolling up 30 minutes before quitting time)
>>> roll up, go home. At the job the next day with coffee in hand 20
>>> minutes before starting time.
>>>
>>> Where did all those guys go?
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>>
>> Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that he
>> might leave early?
>
> That shows he left home early in case there was a traffic delay on the
> way, it demonstrates a commitment to the job that is often lacking in
> those who allow just barely enough time to get there a minute before
> starting time. It ain't the single most important quality in a worker, but
> things like that tend to be part of a pattern.
>
amen, brother!

My boss hired someone who was late to her interview despite the old adage
not to.

She was late to work everyday after that.

"Charlie Groh" wrote

> ...I've recently dragged my 77 out for a couple of jobs and it's been
> a *time* machine. I love that saw...it really is a part of my arm
> when I'm using it...Swingman, you probably wouldn't like the way mine
> looks, tho; there is *no* guard. I own three of them and all the
> guards are in a little nook in the shop. I know, I know...but that's
> how we learned out here on the "tracts" and anytime I use a circular
> saw *with* a guard I feel I'm gonna hurt myself! I suppose if I were
> on a "real" job (meaning one involving other workers and apt to get
> OSHA inspections) I'd have to conform, though. Funny aside, I was at
> a yard the other day at the counter. So I see this gizmo out of the
> corner of my eye...you know, an impulse-buy display, and it was a
> Skilsaw guard holder-upper. Well, I joked with the sales guy who's
> about my age that I wouldn't be needing *that* anytime soon. He came
> back with, "...yeah, there was a guy in here this morning who said
> '...now, what do they think I'm going to do with my pencil?'"

Yep, nary a guard in sight.

Funny thing, one of 77's was used to "chop" down an 8" diameter tree that
was leaning over the framed area and in the way of installing TJI's. A
relief cut on one side, the coup de grace cut on the opposite, tree down,
five minutes, back to work.

I gotta admit that's the first time I've ever seen a "circular saw" used to
remove a tree. :)

Keep in mind that around here it would take an application, complete with
name, rank, serial number, genus and phylum of every tree on that, and
adjacent, properties; an inspection prior to that; erection a "tree
protection fence" around adjacent trees; another inspection of said fence
installation; a week for the actual "tree removal permit"; a licensed
professional "arborist" to do the deed for $250 minimum; a request to remove
the "tree protection fence", apres mort; another inspection following that
providing $100/diameter inch was paid to the city "tree fund"; AND, required
replacement with an equal number of circumference inches of a tree on the
"approved list", and within 2000 feet of the construction site, and that
must live for at least five years.

No, I'm not kidding ... we actually had one builder here in WestU accused of
"tree murder"! :(

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 2009-03-06, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Framing crew on a current construction project is being run by two union
> carpenters.........

There's still such a thing as union carpenters? I've heard of such things
in myth.

nb

<[email protected]> wrote

> today's unqualified labor force. (I was glad there was a two day
> allowance; I used the money I saved on ibuprofin!)

Know the feeling ... having all these relatively young studs around the last
couple weeks and, in my *mind's* eye, I'm still the same, so I humped a
couple trusses this week, or tried to. Paying the price as we speak ... thus
the margarita, in hand.

--
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KarlC@ (the obvious)

<[email protected]> wrote

> If I worked with some guys like you are describing I might tell
> everyone I was joining the circus and leave with them.
>
> How did you find them?

Foundation contractor on this particular job, an old time Aggie
acquaintance, is married to one of the guy's sister. The guy, who owned his
own framing company in Washington for the last 25 years, was bit by hard
times in the area and just moved to Bryan, and, as luck would have it, was
looking for work. I had him bid the job, along with four others, and he came
in in the middle (I liked that his was a fair bid, a tad on the high side
for the times, but it showed an obvious knowledge of the work required, and,
just importantly his worth in it ... no low balling just to get the work)
Although I'd never met the guy before meeting with him on the RFQ, the
entire family is known for their work ethic, the connections were there, and
I had a good feeling about him. Soon as the contract was awarded, he flew in
his old right hand man from Washington for the job, and hired some local
hands to fill out the crew.

How lucky can you get ... :)

Bubba, I can tell you one thing for sure ... I wish like hell I had six more
to build right this minute, with these two guys as bell cows, we'd be hell
to stop!

--
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Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Tom Watson wrote:

> Still keep my 77 greased and ready to kick ass. It's the 1911 of
> jobsite saws.

Heh, well put.

> The 77 is heavy but, if you use it right, it and gravity are your
> friends.

I noticed yesterday in a big-box store that their 77s were made in China. I
wonder if some are still U.S.-made, or have they moved all their production
overseas? I see quite a few on Craig's List for $80-90, some as low as $50.
A 77 is on the list, I just want to find a nice clean one at the right
price.

"MikeWhy" wrote
> "Swingman"
>> Framing crew on a current construction project is being run by two union
>> carpenters from Washington state. Both of these guys are "old school", to
>> say the least (it's been years since I've seen exclusively 77's on a
>> jobsite here in Texas, and these guys pulled seven out of the trailer,
>> five for the "hired help", and a "personal" 77 a piece).
>
> F8ck!!!! They had to travel half the country to find work?!!


Yeah, Bubba ... and I'm damn glad of it.

Don't want to sound non-PC, but good gawd almighty the difference!

--
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Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> If R.W. were a bar, there would be a big section of guys kidding around
> with each other, taking jesting jabs at one another, laughing it up, and

Or maybe, people are yanking your chain to see what kind of reaction they
can get out of you. Possibly, it's you that's taking things too seriously to
realize that people are having a laugh at your expense. Sounds pretty bar
like to me.

Unfortunately, in a place where text is the sole language of communication
along with the absence of inflections and body language to assist with that
yukking it atmosphere that you're apparently missing, the few emoticons
available (or lack there of) may be insufficient here for the bar scene that
you're seeking.

(I tried very hard to make that last paragraph one long sentence and still
make sense.)

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Oh, *I'm* the one getting all upset. Ok.
> I haven't heard the old "I'm rubber, you're glue" in quite a few years.
:-)

> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)

In that case, I'd suggest quite strongly that your tagline is exceptionally
inappropriate where you're concerned.

On 2009-03-08, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> Or like the lead singer who gets there first and sets up his $3000
> acoustic on a $10 guitar stand, right in the middle of the stage while
> everyone with road cases has to tip-toe around the thing, which he
> plays out of tune on 3 songs.

ROFL!.....

nb

On Mar 7, 2:52=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that he
> might leave early?

About the only thing I would be pissed about is an idiot that puts
words in my mouth.

Did I indicate anywhere that I EXPECTED him to be there early. You,
the one that has admonished others for not being as literal as
possible, not adhering to the written word exactly as it has been
recorded.
You have done this before when responding to my posts, reacting by
putting you own thoughts down as my words.

Read my post again. If you are unclear of its commentary, post your
questions here.

Don't put words in my mouth or pretend to read my thoughts, asshole.

Robert

> I've gone all this time without ever using a worm-gear saw.
> What are the advantages? =A0Torque?
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)

Ah, let me count the ways...
1. It's HEAVY. When making a cut, inertia is your friend.
2. The blade spins slower (4400 RPM vs 5500 RPM, I think) so you get
more torque out of the saw. When cutting wet wood that tries its best
to bind the blade, this comes in handy.
3. The saw is looooong. When making a rip cut, a side-to-side
movement of your hand to get off your chalkline is consequently larger
than with a universal gear (is that what they're called?) saw.
4. Like Tom said, when resting a joist on your foot, you don't have
to bend over so far.
5. You get to tell your friends, "Yeah, I had to change the oil...in
my Skil saw."

I was shown the glory that is the worm-gear about 3 years ago, and
I'll never have another saw. Currently, I own a Ridgid and a Skil.
The Skil is considerably heavier, and I like it considerably better.

Back on-topic, I'm a (relatively) young man, and I hold the values in
this thread to be of the highest, um, value. A mentor of mine had a
theory--without getting too long-winded, there are 4 types of
employees, all having 2 traits. High and low knowledge, and high and
low motivation. Obviously, the high-skill, high-motivation employee
is the most desirable, but Mr. Leavoy swore up and down all week long
that he'd rather have high-motivation, low-skill employees than the
other way around. In my own life, I've found that you can teach
anyone to do anything, but you can't teach the "want." The person
either wants to learn (or improve), or he doesn't.

BTW, it's been a long time, gentlemen. I'm glad to welcome you all
back onto my computer screen. It's good to be back on the wRECk.

Phil
-It's easier to believe than to decide.

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:46:04 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Framing crew on a current construction project is being run by two union
>carpenters from Washington state. Both of these guys are "old school", to
>say the least (it's been years since I've seen exclusively 77's on a jobsite
>here in Texas, and these guys pulled seven out of the trailer, five for the
>"hired help", and a "personal" 77 a piece).
>
>This morning, watched while one of them ripped a 4x12x20' cedar beam to
>width, to match two butting LVL's ... took less time to "rip" than to
>"report". No guide, no line, just a pencil mark to start, and a 'finger on
>edge' to guide the cut. Result: perfect match to the LVL's, and the 9/16"
>off cut does not vary by 1/32 for the entire 20' length.
>
>Try that with 20' 4x12 stock on your table saw!
>
>Can't express how good it is to see that type of "skill" is still being
>wielded once again in these parts ... notable/rare enough for picture proof:
>
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/A.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/B.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/C.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/D.jpg
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/E.jpg
>
>Even rarer these days : sit in a the construction trailer and listen to
>measurement 'call outs' in English, and SRV on the jobsite radio.
>
>Now, if only Paul Harvey would be around to signal lunch time ...



Unfortunately they are mostly gone! Dead, retired, working for peanuts
because nobody will pay for the quality workmanship anymore! Around
here it's all about the low bidder. How cheap and can I get it
yesterday! Hell, The good ones show up sober and ready to work. The
great ones know how to work! It doesn't take any extra time to do most
things the right way. takes a helluva lot longer to fix all the
f**kups. I've thought about headin your way for work but sadly I aint
up to the task anymore. The old bones just dont work that way anymore.
Nobody wants to hire us old farts anymore. We are dinosaurs [they say]
and the wetbacks will do it so cheap that we can't compete anymore.
It's a sad state of affairs for sure! Enjoy those men while ya can
swingman. They are a dying breed and soon enough they will all be
gone. then we be in realy deep shit!

skeez

On Mar 7, 5:23=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hell, and my recent IME, many of today's young worker's want to be patted=
on
> the back and rewarded with a raise for just showing up.

Absolutely. And I have had more than one that wanted >a raise<
because they had not only attended several day in a row, but wanted a
reward for not being late.

Except of course, the times it wasn't their fault.

My first boss in construction had been trained by the union. If you
were late by one minute, you had to wait 1/2 hour in your truck before
you could start. If you were more than 10 minutes late, you had to
wait an hour before you could start. You had to wait in your vehicle
so you couldn't fudge and say you were working.

If you protested too much, he sent you home. If you did it more than
a couple of times you were fired. There were no exceptions. With
that kind of rigidity, none of us ever gave a thought to being a 20
minutes early so we could catch up on things a bit before we cranked
up the machines. Everyone was on time.

His personal philosophy was that he paid us to WORK for 8 hours. Work
did not mean "getting your tools out" or "putting your tools up". He
always held himself to that same standard. As another bonus, he was
unconcerned with your watch. His was the only one that counted.

If things poorly on the job, just to screw with us, he used to set his
watch back about ten minutes so we would get upset and he could yell
at us for something else. It seemed to kind of keep things in
balance.

I actually liked and respected that man more than anyone I ever worked
for or around. He was a rigid taskmaster, but boy were we all proud
of he work we turned out when working with him. We felt like real
first class MOFOs when we worked on his crew.

Sadly, when he retired from work he was so confused about today's work
force he was completely miserable. It made him old before his time.

> Damn if we don't sound like a couple of old farts ... :)

*chuckles*

Yeah, we do. I'll admit there is a little fartage coming on....

I wish some of those children that work for me from time to time would
quit calling me "an old dude", though.

Whippersnappers!

Robert

-MIKE- wrote:

>> Stop work at
>> the end of the day (not rolling up 30 minutes before quitting time)
>> roll up, go home. At the job the next day with coffee in hand 20
>> minutes before starting time.
>>
>> Where did all those guys go?
>>
>> Robert
>
>
> Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that he
> might leave early?

That shows he left home early in case there was a traffic delay on the way,
it demonstrates a commitment to the job that is often lacking in those who
allow just barely enough time to get there a minute before starting time.
It ain't the single most important quality in a worker, but things like that
tend to be part of a pattern.

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 19:34:14 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

> ...(77)...It's the 1911 of jobsite saws.

Heh, heh.



--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

> Stop work at
> the end of the day (not rolling up 30 minutes before quitting time)
> roll up, go home. At the job the next day with coffee in hand 20
> minutes before starting time.
>
> Where did all those guys go?
>
> Robert


Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that he
might leave early?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

>>> Stop work at
>>> the end of the day (not rolling up 30 minutes before quitting time)
>>> roll up, go home. At the job the next day with coffee in hand 20
>>> minutes before starting time.
>>>
>>> Where did all those guys go?
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that he might
>> leave early?
>
> Just like a drummer, used to showing up on the downbeat! <g>
>
> No offense, Mike, but the change in times and attitude is nicely reflected
> in your question. It wasn't Robert that "expected" anything, it was the dude
> himself, who was hired to do the job, that expected it of himself as part of
> the job!
>
> I agree, it's not a prevailing attitude today, thus the discussion.
>

I knew the answer. I wanted to hear it from him. There *are* bosses who
expect people to be early and work late, then bitch about paying for it.

Don't get me started on smoking breaks.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 7, 2:52 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that he
>> might leave early?
>
> About the only thing I would be pissed about is an idiot that puts
> words in my mouth.
>
> Did I indicate anywhere that I EXPECTED him to be there early. You,
> the one that has admonished others for not being as literal as
> possible, not adhering to the written word exactly as it has been
> recorded.
> You have done this before when responding to my posts, reacting by
> putting you own thoughts down as my words.
>
> Read my post again. If you are unclear of its commentary, post your
> questions here.
>
> Don't put words in my mouth or pretend to read my thoughts, asshole.
>
> Robert
>

Wow. I'll be sure to note for future reference that you have a short
fuse to go along with being passive aggressive.

Did I talk too loud? :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:
> Just like a drummer, used to showing up on the downbeat! <g>
>

And please! We're the first one in and the last one out because of all
this crap we have to haul. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
>>>> Stop work at
>>>> the end of the day (not rolling up 30 minutes before quitting time)
>>>> roll up, go home. At the job the next day with coffee in hand 20
>>>> minutes before starting time.
>>>>
>>>> Where did all those guys go?
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>
>>> Why do you expect him there 20 minutes early, but are pissed that
>>> he might leave early?
>>
>> Just like a drummer, used to showing up on the downbeat! <g>
>>
>> No offense, Mike, but the change in times and attitude is nicely
>> reflected in your question. It wasn't Robert that "expected"
>> anything, it was the dude himself, who was hired to do the job, that
>> expected it of himself as part of the job!
>>
>> I agree, it's not a prevailing attitude today, thus the discussion.
>>
>
> I knew the answer. I wanted to hear it from him. There *are* bosses
> who expect people to be early and work late, then bitch about paying
> for it.
> Don't get me started on smoking breaks.

Coming from the other end, I have trouble with the kind of boss who's
standing there with his stopwatch making snotty remarks when you come in
thirty seconds late, but he was long gone when you went home at 2 AM the
night before.

Steve Turner wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> Just like a drummer, used to showing up on the downbeat! <g>
>>>
>>
>> And please! We're the first one in and the last one out because of all
>> this crap we have to haul. :-)
>
> Yeah, and if we get stuck in traffic and *don't* get there before
> everybody else, setup is a nightmare because you have to trip over
> everybody else's junk and grouse at them to move it so there's enough
> room to set up the drums!
>

Or like the lead singer who gets there first and sets up his $3000
acoustic on a $10 guitar stand, right in the middle of the stage while
everyone with road cases has to tip-toe around the thing, which he
plays out of tune on 3 songs.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Upscale wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Wow. I'll be sure to note for future reference that you have a short
>> fuse to go along with being passive aggressive.
>>
>> Did I talk too loud? :-)
>
> No, he got aggravated that you didn't take the time to understand what you
> read and then compounded it by replying to something he didn't say.
>
> Maybe you like responding to people who don't listen to what you're saying,
> but most people don't.
>

I've been doing this usenet thing for more than a decade and this group,
without a doubt, contains some of the most thinned skinned, crotchety,
sense-of-humor-less, hair-triggered folks of any group I've frequented.

If R.W. were a bar, there would be a big section of guys kidding around
with each other, taking jesting jabs at one another, laughing it up, and
there'd be one booth in the corner with 4 guys whining and moaning about
youngsters who don't respect their elders, pining away about the old days.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

notbob wrote:
> On 2009-03-08, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I've been doing this usenet thing for more than a decade and this group,
>> without a doubt, contains some of the most thinned skinned, crotchety,
>> sense-of-humor-less....
>
> I don't know. I thought your other post was hilarious. ;)
>
> nb

That's why I wrote,"some of." :-)
I've been in other groups and a majority of guys see the usenet for the
pub-like atmosphere that it is.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

> I've always showed up for work 20 minutes early, I started with the
> Bell System and was a union member from the first moment I was
> allowed to join until I retired 32 years later, then went to work the
> next 5 years working in a shop fabricating laminate for custom
> closets, Still got to work 20 minutes early and waited outside the
> shop till they opened it. It just never felt right to me to be
> showing up as they were opening the doors. I get to the doctors
> office early too. I hate being late, just ruins my day I see the
> younger guys drive up and park just as they were opening the doors to
> the shop and wonder how they could live with that. Guess new values,
> or is it lack of pride in self and work ethics
> CC
> CC

Lord knows I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth or anything, so
help me understand this.
I get showing up early to do what you have to do in order to start
"working" at clock-in.

But these guys can't even get in the shop doors, right?
Are you saying they should show up and sit in the parking lot for 20
minutes?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Upscale wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> If R.W. were a bar, there would be a big section of guys kidding around
>> with each other, taking jesting jabs at one another, laughing it up, and
>
> Or maybe, people are yanking your chain to see what kind of reaction they
> can get out of you. Possibly, it's you that's taking things too seriously to
> realize that people are having a laugh at your expense. Sounds pretty bar
> like to me.
>

Oh, *I'm* the one getting all upset. Ok.

I haven't heard the old "I'm rubber, you're glue" in quite a few years. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

CC wrote:
>
>>> I've always showed up for work 20 minutes early, I started with the
>>> Bell System and was a union member from the first moment I was
>>> allowed to join until I retired 32 years later, then went to work the
>>> next 5 years working in a shop fabricating laminate for custom
>>> closets, Still got to work 20 minutes early and waited outside the
>>> shop till they opened it. It just never felt right to me to be
>>> showing up as they were opening the doors. I get to the doctors
>>> office early too. I hate being late, just ruins my day I see the
>>> younger guys drive up and park just as they were opening the doors to
>>> the shop and wonder how they could live with that. Guess new values,
>>> or is it lack of pride in self and work ethics
>>> CC
>>> CC
>>
>> Lord knows I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth or anything, so
>> help me understand this.
>> I get showing up early to do what you have to do in order to start
>> "working" at clock-in.
>>
>> But these guys can't even get in the shop doors, right?
>> Are you saying they should show up and sit in the parking lot for 20
>> minutes?
>>
>>
>> -MIKE-
>>
> No Mike, I'm not saying that, but, leaving home so that you arrive at
> the work location so that you get there as they are opening the doors
> is cutting it too close for me, Too many times they have walked in
> late because of traffic, or what ever reason. When I was working, I
> liked to be able to be able to have time to collect my tools, get
> some coffee and have time to drink it, not have to drive like an
> idiot to make sure that I am not late, and to be ready to start my
> work day without all the stress of hoping the boss doesn't catch me
> walking in past start time, or anyone waiting on me because I was
> late.
> CC

For the sake of discussion, I don't think work ethic has anything to do
with age. I've supervised 20 year olds with strong work ethics and the
utmost responsibility. When given the opportunity to meet their parents,
I would find out why. That's something that is most often taught and led
by a parent or role model.

I think age can hone one's work ethic and experience (school of hard
knocks) makes or breaks it in many people, but every generation has its
slackers and its conscientious, responsible workers.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

DGDevin wrote:
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> Still keep my 77 greased and ready to kick ass. It's the 1911 of
>> jobsite saws.
>
> Heh, well put.
>
>> The 77 is heavy but, if you use it right, it and gravity are your
>> friends.
>

I've gone all this time without ever using a worm-gear saw.
What are the advantages? Torque?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Upscale wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Oh, *I'm* the one getting all upset. Ok.
>> I haven't heard the old "I'm rubber, you're glue" in quite a few years.
> :-)
>
>> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
>> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
>
> In that case, I'd suggest quite strongly that your tagline is exceptionally
> inappropriate where you're concerned.
>
>

Neener, neener.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Framing crew on a current construction project is being run by two union
> carpenters from Washington state. Both of these guys are "old school", to
> say the least (it's been years since I've seen exclusively 77's on a
> jobsite here in Texas, and these guys pulled seven out of the trailer,
> five for the "hired help", and a "personal" 77 a piece).

F8ck!!!! They had to travel half the country to find work?!!

CC wrote:

>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "DGDevin" wrote
>>
>>> That shows he left home early in case there was a traffic delay on
>>> the way, it demonstrates a commitment to the job that is often
>>> lacking in those who allow just barely enough time to get there a
>>> minute before starting time. It ain't the single most important
>>> quality in a worker, but things like that tend to be part of a
>>> pattern.
>>
>> Very will put!
>>
>> --
>
> I've always showed up for work 20 minutes early, I started with the
> Bell System

That's a great trait

> and was a union member from the first moment I was allowed to join
> until I retired

I'm impressed, from what I've seen, union membership often sucks the
initiative right out of motivated workers.

... snip I get to the doctors office early too. I hate being
> late, just ruins my day

I'll do that the first time or so. If the doctor or other professional
keeps *me* waiting more than 10 or 15 minutes, I take that into account for
future visits and am not quite so fussy about getting there on time. I'll
allow for a bad day the first time this happens, but after the second time
in a row, I take this as an attitude on the part of the office that
clients' time is cheap while their time is valuable, so making the client
wait is the way to keep the office humming properly. I am also a
professional and my time is valuable as well -- if they don't value *my*
time as much as they expect me to value theirs, I get a bit snippy about
that and am likely to start factoring in the standard office delay when
timing my future visits.


> I see the younger guys drive up and park just as they were opening the
> doors to the shop
> and wonder how they could live with that. Guess new values, or is it
> lack of pride in self and
> work ethics

Working as a non-hourly employee, I can't directly relate to that. I've
always put in more than a regular day, so start and stop times are a bit
fuzzy. When one's regular shift is 9 hours and one normally works 10+
hours, I'm not sure how to count "showing up on time" except in the sense
of making sure one makes scheduled meetings on time.


> CC
> CC

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> I've always showed up for work 20 minutes early, I started with the
>> Bell System and was a union member from the first moment I was
>> allowed to join until I retired 32 years later, then went to work
>> the
>> next 5 years working in a shop fabricating laminate for custom
>> closets, Still got to work 20 minutes early and waited outside the
>> shop till they opened it. It just never felt right to me to be
>> showing up as they were opening the doors. I get to the doctors
>> office early too. I hate being late, just ruins my day I see the
>> younger guys drive up and park just as they were opening the doors
>> to
>> the shop and wonder how they could live with that. Guess new
>> values,
>> or is it lack of pride in self and work ethics
>> CC
>> CC
>
> Lord knows I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth or anything,
> so help me understand this.
> I get showing up early to do what you have to do in order to start
> "working" at clock-in.
>
> But these guys can't even get in the shop doors, right?
> Are you saying they should show up and sit in the parking lot for 20
> minutes?
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
No Mike, I'm not saying that, but, leaving home so that you arrive
at the work location so that you get there as they are opening the
doors
is cutting it too close for me, Too many times they have walked in
late because
of traffic, or what ever reason. When I was working, I liked to be
able to be able
to have time to collect my tools, get some coffee and have time to
drink it,
not have to drive like an idiot to make sure that I am not late, and
to be ready to
start my work day without all the stress of hoping the boss doesn't
catch me walking
in past start time, or anyone waiting on me because I was late.
CC

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> The particular man I had in my mind's eye when I typed that just
>> thought that was the way the world worked. It was the way I was
>> expected to act when I started in the trades. It was that way before
>> me, and no doubt before that.
>
> Hell, and my recent IME, many of today's young worker's want to be patted
> on the back and rewarded with a raise for just showing up.
>
> Damn if we don't sound like a couple of old farts ... :)
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
>
>
Yeah, and they consider showing up in flip flops to a business office to be
a fashion statement.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/8628616/

jc

On 2009-03-08, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> That's why I wrote,"some of." :-)
> I've been in other groups and a majority of guys see the usenet for the
> pub-like atmosphere that it is.

Agreed. I've jes been reading for a couple days and already like it. Lotta
geezers with old work ethic, like myself. I find older crowd to still have
tolerance and humor. Granted, lotta curmudgeons, but good humored
curmudgeons. ;)

nb <-- g/h curm

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "DGDevin" wrote
>
>> That shows he left home early in case there was a traffic delay on
>> the way, it demonstrates a commitment to the job that is often
>> lacking in those who allow just barely enough time to get there a
>> minute before starting time. It ain't the single most important
>> quality in a worker, but things like that tend to be part of a
>> pattern.
>
> Very will put!
>
> --

I've always showed up for work 20 minutes early, I started with the
Bell System
and was a union member from the first moment I was allowed to join
until I retired
32 years later, then went to work the next 5 years working in a shop
fabricating
laminate for custom closets, Still got to work 20 minutes early and
waited outside
the shop till they opened it. It just never felt right to me to be
showing up as they were
opening the doors. I get to the doctors office early too. I hate being
late, just ruins my day
I see the younger guys drive up and park just as they were opening the
doors to the shop
and wonder how they could live with that. Guess new values, or is it
lack of pride in self and
work ethics
CC
CC

"-MIKE-" wrote

> I've been doing this usenet thing for more than a decade and this group,
> without a doubt, contains some of the most thinned skinned, crotchety,
> sense-of-humor-less, hair-triggered folks of any group I've frequented.
>
> If R.W. were a bar, there would be a big section of guys kidding around
> with each other, taking jesting jabs at one another, laughing it up, and
> there'd be one booth in the corner with 4 guys whining and moaning about
> youngsters who don't respect their elders, pining away about the old days.

Beg to differ ... ran a FidoNet node back in the 70's, and co-wrote the very
first Windows mail software for Fido ... IME, nothing has changed in that
regard whatsoever.

Just ask Jack about the OS wars back then ... :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Framing crew on a current construction project is being run by two union
> carpenters from Washington state. Both of these guys are "old school", to
> say the least (it's been years since I've seen exclusively 77's on a
> jobsite here in Texas, and these guys pulled seven out of the trailer,
> five for the "hired help", and a "personal" 77 a piece).
>
> This morning, watched while one of them ripped a 4x12x20' cedar beam to
> width, to match two butting LVL's ... took less time to "rip" than to
> "report". No guide, no line, just a pencil mark to start, and a 'finger on
> edge' to guide the cut. Result: perfect match to the LVL's, and the 9/16"
> off cut does not vary by 1/32 for the entire 20' length.
>
> Try that with 20' 4x12 stock on your table saw!
>
> Can't express how good it is to see that type of "skill" is still being
> wielded once again in these parts ... notable/rare enough for picture
> proof:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/A.jpg
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/B.jpg
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/C.jpg
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/D.jpg
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/E.jpg
>
> Even rarer these days : sit in a the construction trailer and listen to
> measurement 'call outs' in English, and SRV on the jobsite radio.

Obviously the Sketchup plans that they were referencing was a big help in
making those accurate cuts. ;~)