Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood, and I
can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying in a
stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use for
flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces and
trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the edges
can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?
Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber would be
appreciated!
There has always been powered jointers. It's just that before water power or
electricity was harnessed they were called apprentices.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3wO0b.209281$Ho3.27232@sccrnsc03...
> Before there were electric jointers people used to sit around and say "I
> sure wish somebody would invent the jointer so we wouln't have to use
these
> rig jobs all the time".
> "McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people
who
> > didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you
have
> > to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will
> always
> > see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
> > woodworking.
> > --
> > McQualude
>
>
No flame. AAMOF, I could live without a jointer, and did for a long time,
but I wouldn't want to. So happens I recently took delivery of a new
Powermatic 54a, which replaced an old benchtop model. As far as "justifying
the money", read on and see that even SWMBO had to agree that ! have
summarily, if luckily, done so in this case.
I had recently picked up 43 rough walnut "blanks" a local sign company gave
me for the asking. They were half-moon shaped pieces about 48" long X 3"
thick, likely S2S1E at one point and I got the rough edge and the curve
only. The only way to make these things useful was to begin by jointing the
rough edge and going from there.
Each of these 43 blanks, after being jointed and planed, resulted in S4S
walnut stock with dimensions of 3" X 3" X 36" ... perfect table leg blanks.
At local hardwood lumber dealers prices of $11.75 b/f for S4S walnut blanks
of this size and grade, the new jointer basically paid for itself, and made
another $380, in less than a day.
I could of done the same thing with a hand plane and realized a greater
gain, but I wouldn't have.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/24/03
"CW" wrote in message
> There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise
(due
> to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't
live
> without a jointer but I do just fine. I don't want to dedicate the shop
> space to a machine of such limited usefulness. I do have a planer and
would
> not want to do without that.
> Let the flames begin.
You know, people only had crude stone (or was it bone ;-) axes at one
time too.
Renata
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:48:47 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Before there were electric jointers people used to sit around and say "I
>sure wish somebody would invent the jointer so we wouln't have to use these
>rig jobs all the time".
>"McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people who
>> didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you have
>> to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will
>always
>> see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
>> woodworking.
>> --
>> McQualude
>
>
Before there were electric jointers people used to sit around and say "I
sure wish somebody would invent the jointer so we wouln't have to use these
rig jobs all the time".
"McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people who
> didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you have
> to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will
always
> see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
> woodworking.
> --
> McQualude
You're right ... and while I do have all those items on hand, I still
wouldn't have taken on that job without the/a jointer.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/24/03
"George" wrote in message
> Hmmm, checked the price of good planes lately? A pair or three would
about
> do for that Powermatic.
>
> And then there's the vice to hold the stock, the bench it's attached to
....
>
Gary Rogowski who writes articles for Fine Woodworking, has addressed
this issue and agrees that, if it existed for the same price and size
range as the other tools, a 12 or 13 inch jointer would be the perfect
companion to the 12 or 13 inch thickness planer. You bring up a
surface planer -- interesting. Now I know that you have to have a
dead flat surface extending a ridiculous distance out each end of the
jointer for a long board. This adds up to a very large and expensive
machine. Of course the planer was in this category just a few years
ago. The benchtop thickness planer brought this machine down to a
reasonable size and price. Somehow it just seems that a 12 inch
"jointer" or as you describe, a surface planer might be created along
the lines of the innovative thought that went into a benchtop
thickness planer. It might not do a 6 ft board the way an 8 or 12
inch jointer would, but it might -- if not to bed -- could possibly
put this discussion into a light sleep. What do you think?
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 15 Aug 2003 03:03:31 GMT, [email protected] (RickHlavka) wrote:
>
> >Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
>
> This is a confusion that arises through shortened terminology. In
> full, the names are:
>
> Planer - anything that planes
>
> Surface planer - planer with knives and tables in one surface.
>
> Jointer - narrow surface planer with a vertical fence
>
> Thickness planer - planer with knives above the table
>
>
> You _need_ a thickness planer. You will get wedges with the others.
>
> If you saw the boards fairly flat, and they stay that way when drying,
> then you don't need a surface planer.
>
> If you have cupped boards, then a thickness planer will flatten them.
> Not using excess pressure helps (don't try to _iron_ the wood flat !)
> and sometimes some hand plane work to knock the high spots down. But
> you _can_ remove most cupping on a thicknesser.
>
> If you have twist, then you can't take this out with a thicknesser and
> this is where a surface planer is useful. Personally I look twice at
> the board. Boards (in most timbers) shouldn't twist, so it's either a
> drying fault or an unstable board. Often I rip this in half (if I can)
> to get the smaller useful and stable part out, rather than machining
> it perfectly flat and knowing it will twist again tomorrow.
>
>
> You don't need a jointer for hardwoods or the "timberyard" part of the
> process, because we rarely need squared edges. But many of us have
> them for joinery anyway, so we use them as surface planers.
Reading comprehension Dave, work on it.
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> now THAT's an attitude that qualifies for the pot calling the kettle
> black! (in case you can't figure it out, I'm referring to your idea that
> folks are ignorant for having a jointer). Green monster, perhaps? Grow
up.
>
>
There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise (due
to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't live
without a jointer but I do just fine. I don't want to dedicate the shop
space to a machine of such limited usefulness. I do have a planer and would
not want to do without that.
Let the flames begin.
"RickHlavka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
and I
> can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
> years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying
in a
> stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use
for
> flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces
and
> trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the
edges
> can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?
>
> Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
would be
> appreciated!
now THAT's an attitude that qualifies for the pot calling the kettle
black! (in case you can't figure it out, I'm referring to your idea that
folks are ignorant for having a jointer). Green monster, perhaps? Grow up.
dave
CW wrote:
> There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise (due
> to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't live
> without a jointer but I do just fine. I don't want to dedicate the shop
> space to a machine of such limited usefulness. I do have a planer and would
> not want to do without that.
> Let the flames begin.
> "RickHlavka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
>
> and I
>
>>can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
>>years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying
>
> in a
>
>>stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use
>
> for
>
>>flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces
>
> and
>
>>trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the
>
> edges
>
>>can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?
>>
>>Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
>
> would be
>
>>appreciated!
>
>
>
Steps for truing stock.
Absolutely necessary. A flat face to work from.
Joint (make flat and straight) one face (reference face) so you have
something to true (reference) the remaining three sides to. Not to be done
on a planer because the feed rollers will push out any warp and it will
reappear as the stock exits the planer. For the same reason use very little
down force when jointing.
Joint one edge with the reference face against the jointers fence. This will
give you a straight edge that is at 90 degrees to the reference face. Also
an edge to reference the next edge.,
Rip a second edge on the table saw with the reference face against the table
and the reference edge against the fence. Try to do it on the jointer and it
will give you a straight edge but not one necessarily parallel to the first
edge.
Now you can plane the piece to a proper thickness with the reference face
flat down on the planers feed table. Since the reference face is flat the
planer has no warp to press out so the face being planed will be not only be
flat but parallel to the reference face.
The jointer performs the two most critical steps in the process (the
reference face and edge) but, with sufficient dicking around, there are work
arounds. but, without the dicking around, the planer will not perform the
functions of a jointer and the jointer will not perform the functions of a
planer.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"RickHlavka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
and I
> can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
> years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying
in a
> stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use
for
> flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces
and
> trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the
edges
> can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?
>
> Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
would be
> appreciated!
RickHlavka spaketh...
> Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up
> wood, and I can't figure out why I would need a jointer?
A jointer makes a board flat, it can also true the edges for glue up, cut
rabbit joints, cut tapers and curves as well.
A planer makes both sides parallel and reduces the thickness of wood.
> preparing to clean them up to use for flooring, etc. I'm thinking of
> buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces and trim them down to size
> (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the edges can be
> straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?
Maybe you don't for flooring if the boards are relatively flat and you
have a good blade. My initial woodworking training included a jointer and
I am convinced that I must have one, although I have been getting by with
hand planes.
> Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
> would be appreciated!
The sequence I was taught is this:
1. flatten one face on the jointer
2. true one edge on the jointer, you can rough it out with a TS, cut
opposite side parallel with TS, then joint to width
3. use planer to make sides parallel and get within a hair of final
thickness
4. tool the wood
5. sand/scrape (I usually use 60-80-120)
6. assemble
7. final sand/scrape (150-220)
I've probably left something out, but I'm sure someone will remind me.
You can substitute hand planes during steps 1-3, it's just more labor
intensive.
--
McQualude
Fred the Red Shirt spaketh...
> Summary: If you can select stock that isn't wildly deformed and
> exercise a bit of skill and cunning you can do nicely without the
> jointer. It is good to have one though.
I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people who
didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you have
to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will always
see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
woodworking.
--
McQualude
"John Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> What what happens is that the machinist "rocks" the part on the grinder
> table, trying to find the concave side and putting it on the bottom. He
> then shims it with thin stock under the high sides until it doesn't rock
> anymore, then turns on the magnetic table.
>
> Don't see why you can't do something like that with a board in a planer.
>
> John
Different tables.
Locking the material with a shim on a stationary table is much easier than
trying to shim a 6' board that is going to move on a short table under the
stationary cutter.
If you have a consistent cup, it may work, but if you have some odd twisting
at different points, it is going to be much more difficult to get it right.
Only a couple of feet of the board is supported at a given time.
The shorter the board, the easier it is. The thicker the board, the less
likely to get pressed down if cupped. I've tried taking very light cuts on
some pine boards with cup and had no luck. It is just too soft and easily
flattened by the rollers to work properly. On 8/4 oak, I had no problem.
I don't have a jointer yet and I've gotten by, but there have been times
that life would have been much easier with it. I've also passed on some
cheap wood that could have easily been used with a jointer, but would have
been a PITA with just a planer.
No matter how bad a piece of wood may be twisted, someone here has been able
to get it perfect with an Xacto knife and beer can opener, but it sure is
easier with the right tools.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:24:39 GMT, "George"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Oh yes, and one face does not have to be absolutely flat to feed the planer.
>It just has to sit flat.
Huh? <G>
Run a twisted board through a planer, get another twisted board of
equal thickness all along it's length. The planer will not remove the
twist, only jointing one face and THEN planing to thickness will
remove the twist.
Barry
"RickHlavka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces
and
> trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the
edges
> can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?
>
There are ways of jointing wood without a jointer, but having one makes life
easier.
How will you hold the warped, twisted, board flat to put it through the
planer? You really can't and the planer will skim off material even if it
is not parallel to the bottom. Both sides may be flat, but not parallel.
That will make your floor sort of funny to walk on.
Running a twisted board through the table saw to get a straight edge can be
dangerous. By jointing one edge first, the flat straight edge will run
along the fence while the saw straightens the other edge. This can be done
with a router in a table and the proper fence setup. It can also be done
with a hand plane.
> Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
would be
> appreciated!
OK, first, run one edge across the jointer to make it true. Then . . . . .
.. . .
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
I kinda agree with you, in that you can live without a jointer if you
have to, and if you are willing to fasten temporary pieces of known
straight boards or other edges to run against the fence of the table
saw. A little twist in flooring is not a big deal, it will be fastened
down anyway,and T&G is even better.
On 20 Aug 2003 20:59:16 -0700, [email protected] (Eric Anderson)
wrote:
>Somehow it just seems that a 12 inch
>"jointer" or as you describe, a surface planer might be created along
>the lines of the innovative thought that went into a benchtop
>thickness planer.
Isn't that where the European combination planer / thicknesser is
heading ? These cost the same as 12" thicknesser + 6" jointer, but
work on 10" overall. If there were some affordable 12" combinations,
I'd be considering them.
One problem with this is that the thicknesser is underneath the
surfacer tables. If these tables are heavy (wide, long or substantial
cast iron) then they get awkward to move out of the way.
On 15 Aug 2003 03:03:31 GMT, [email protected] (RickHlavka) wrote:
>Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
This is a confusion that arises through shortened terminology. In
full, the names are:
Planer - anything that planes
Surface planer - planer with knives and tables in one surface.
Jointer - narrow surface planer with a vertical fence
Thickness planer - planer with knives above the table
You _need_ a thickness planer. You will get wedges with the others.
If you saw the boards fairly flat, and they stay that way when drying,
then you don't need a surface planer.
If you have cupped boards, then a thickness planer will flatten them.
Not using excess pressure helps (don't try to _iron_ the wood flat !)
and sometimes some hand plane work to knock the high spots down. But
you _can_ remove most cupping on a thicknesser.
If you have twist, then you can't take this out with a thicknesser and
this is where a surface planer is useful. Personally I look twice at
the board. Boards (in most timbers) shouldn't twist, so it's either a
drying fault or an unstable board. Often I rip this in half (if I can)
to get the smaller useful and stable part out, rather than machining
it perfectly flat and knowing it will twist again tomorrow.
You don't need a jointer for hardwoods or the "timberyard" part of the
process, because we rarely need squared edges. But many of us have
them for joinery anyway, so we use them as surface planers.
How long will this urban legend be around?
C'mon over and I'll buy you a case of your favorite if you can smash the cup
out of a piece of rough 4/4 maple. Then I'll show you how you really have
to flaunt good sense to do it to 3/4 pine.
BTW, I doubt any lunchbox planer out there can apply more pressure on a
board than a 210 lb human bearing down with pushblocks at the jointer.
Oh yes, and one face does not have to be absolutely flat to feed the planer.
It just has to sit flat.
"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Absolutely necessary. A flat face to work from.
>
> Joint (make flat and straight) one face (reference face) so you have
> something to true (reference) the remaining three sides to. Not to be done
> on a planer because the feed rollers will push out any warp and it will
> reappear as the stock exits the planer. For the same reason use very
little
> down force when jointing.
>
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:18:32 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise (due
>to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't live
>without a jointer but I do just fine.
Hilarious.
Now, if you're flattening your lumber with hand planes, you may not
need one, but otherwise you're hilarious.
Anyone can "live without" any tool. A jointer simply makes truing
stock faster, easier, and more accurate than workarounds.
Barry (justifying the $375 I spent on a jointer)
"RickHlavka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
and I
> can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
> years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying
in a
> stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use
for
> flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces
and
> trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the
edges
> can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?
>
> Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
would be
> appreciated!
A planer will not take a cup or twist out of a board. You pretty much need a
jointer for that. A jointer can be used for other operations too, tapering
for example.
I am in the other train of thought. I would like a jointer to true up boards
after ripping them. No need for a planer as of yet, although being a tool
junky, I may buy one, just in case!
Greg
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> writes:
> On 15 Aug 2003 03:03:31 GMT, [email protected] (RickHlavka) wrote:
>
> >Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
[...]
> Surface planer - planer with knives and tables in one surface.
>
> Jointer - narrow surface planer with a vertical fence
>
> Thickness planer - planer with knives above the table
>
>
> You _need_ a thickness planer. You will get wedges with the others.
>
there are also very nice combination machines, that use the same
rotating blades both for planing/jointing and thicknessing, by the
simmple effort of having an infeed/outfeed table, a (removable)
vertical fence and an additional thicknessing table below that
setup. It works very well (at least my fathers Metabo machine, now
about 20 years old) and saves a lot of shop space (and money...).
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
> Run a twisted board through a planer, get another twisted board of
> equal thickness all along it's length. The planer will not remove the
> twist, only jointing one face and THEN planing to thickness will
> remove the twist.
Not if you shim it. I watched our instructor do it in a class last
weekend - two shims taped to the high corners of a twisted board.
2 passes later, the topside sat flat on the table. Then he ran it
through on the other side and voila! A flat board.
Now that I've seen it done, I know I can do it, too.
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
What ever you say bubba. We'll ignore the fact that the PSI pushing down on
the stock as it feeds through a planer is concentrated on the very small
contact area of the feed rollers as well as the fact that if it ain't flat
going through the planer it ain't going to be flat as it comes out. We'll
also pass on the fact that proper feeding of stock through a jointer
specifically precludes pushing down with any great force on the stock. It's
neither desirable nor necessary.
We'll also pretend that the comment "> Oh yes, and one face does not have to
be absolutely flat to feed the planer. It just has to sit flat.." actually
makes some kind of sense and that there will be an efficient and accurate
way to get a true edge with such a board.
Where do these people come from???????????
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:rH8%[email protected]...
> How long will this urban legend be around?
>
> C'mon over and I'll buy you a case of your favorite if you can smash the
cup
> out of a piece of rough 4/4 maple. Then I'll show you how you really
have
> to flaunt good sense to do it to 3/4 pine.
>
> BTW, I doubt any lunchbox planer out there can apply more pressure on a
> board than a 210 lb human bearing down with pushblocks at the jointer.
>
> Oh yes, and one face does not have to be absolutely flat to feed the
planer.
> It just has to sit flat.
>
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Absolutely necessary. A flat face to work from.
> >
> > Joint (make flat and straight) one face (reference face) so you have
> > something to true (reference) the remaining three sides to. Not to be
done
> > on a planer because the feed rollers will push out any warp and it will
> > reappear as the stock exits the planer. For the same reason use very
> little
> > down force when jointing.
> >
>
>