I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I handcut all the dovetails for the drawers of a desk. Not half bad if
I do say so myself. I agree with those who assert that that you can't
see (and isn't a shortcut that will shorten the live/durability of the
piece) has a place in the modern construction of "fine furniture"
IMHO.
bob g.
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
>>Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
>>biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
>>using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
>>(yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
>>wood
>>as part of the construction.
>
>
> I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either ;)
>
> I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
> IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
> furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
> because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
> can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them
> with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just
> as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
> chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.
>
> What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
> destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.
>
> I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop.
> Ed
>
>
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > As a new convert to biscuit joiners, I'd say that it's the easiest
> > system I've used,short of drilling and inserting a threaded rod into
> > them...
> > Faster, stronger and easier than butt joints and very easy to "mass
> > produce" the biscuit cuts in all the boards at once to either insure
> > good alignment (in the case of the experts here) or an interesting
> > stagger effect for folks like me.. *g*
> >
> > One thing for sure.. I don't think my dowel points will get much use
> > now that I have the biscuit jointer.. YMMV
> >
> >
> > Mac
>
> Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
> using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
> (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed wood
> as part of the construction. I know that no one will ever see it or even
> know about it unless I tell them, but I'll know. If I needed to increase
> the strength and/or help with alignment, I guess I'd be inclined to use a
> cross-grain spline.
>
> todd
>
>
No problem at all, philosophical or otherwise. My brother has been making "Fine Furniture" for a living for over 20 years, He
swears by biscuits. If they're good enough for him, they're good enough for me.
--
Al Reid
How will I know when I get there...
If I don't know where I'm going?
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ssK4d.7187$sa.4048@trndny05...
> >
> >
> > Obviously. Modern construction techniques and materials does not equate
> to
> > Wal-Mart furniture.
> >
> > --
> > Al Reid
>
> Well, that's your opinion, of course. And there's a lot of ground between
> Wal-Mart furniture and "fine-quality" furniture, at least in my mind. For
> some reason, there's something intrinsically lame about biscuits in my mind
> when applied to a piece of furniture that I expect to last well beyond my
> lifetime. And this isn't because I've never used them, because I have. I
> have a very serviceable Dewalt biscuit jointer that I've used in the past
> and intend to use in the future on the right projects. I just try to avoid
> them on something I hope will be an heirloom someday. Oh, well...I'm
> certainly not in any position to criticize what other people use, so I'll
> just do my thing and other people will do theirs. Certainly not as
> important as keeping the distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts out of
> the White House.
>
> todd
>
>
I'm having a hard time seeing how using biscuits in any way diminishes a "fine furniture" project and causes it not to last beyond
your lifetime.
I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper and knockdown hardware. I think we are talking about using
glue only or glue and biscuits. Oh, well, certainly not that important.
However, I totally and unequivocally agree with your last sentence.
--
Al Reid
How will I know when I get there...
If I don't know where I'm going?
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:31:03 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>> But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?
>Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail which
>gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.
Because you can't ever dismantle them. Definite no-no in fine
furniture, because a reasonable definition of "fine" is that you're
expecting someone to still care about looking after it in 200 years
time.
And you don't need either tapered mortices or glue.
--
Smert' spamionam
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.
lol... you guys getting a lot of rain over there?
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:27:36 GMT, Rick Cook
<[email protected]> wrote:
>We have a number of examples of this sort of chest with the elaborate ironwork
>from pre-14th century England.
There are plenty of examples of _elaborate_ ironwork, just not many of
simple ironwork. Strapping like the example you showed is like
studded iron nails in the door of your castle - it's not for use, it's
for decoration. Conspicuous consumption to show that you were rich
enough to spend money on expensive ironwork.
> (See also Daniel Diehl's 'Constructing Medieval
>Furniture' for additional examples of ironwork on furniture, including a chest
>from Oxford.)
Not a very good reference, IMHO. It's OK as a constructional guide to
one or two pieces, but it does nothing to put them in a greater
context.
I'd also never buy any book that encourages the making of yet another
bloody Glastonbury chair ! I know chairs weren't common in period,
but there was more than one style.
>judging by the examples remaining in cathedrals, colleges, etc.
There's also a certain skewing as to which examples survived.
>Well, no. In England at least the heavily strapped chest is a design that goes
>back before 1000 AD
There are strapped chests back into the Norse period, but I've not
seen anything like an Armada chest until then. They're pretty much
solid iron - not just strapping to hold it together, but an interlaced
close-spaced strapping that would prevent you smashing it with an axe.
The entire lid is also filled with multiple locks.
>Nice work! However you can make a barrel helm of that pattern without access to
>a blacksmith shop.
Even though I worked these cold, it's a blacksmith's shop where I did
them.
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/sundial/
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/smithing/
> The metalwork is pretty straightforward and mostly bending,
>drilling and some punching.
No punching for these - the breaths were plasma-cut from a stencil.
I'm too lazy to punch holes !
>BTW: I always understood that an 'ark' was simply a chest with a peaked top,
>like a roof. Is there something more to the definition than that?
Not as far as I know. It's a top that's not flat, but has protruding
end plates rather than being coopered.
> "tfk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
> > glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
> > 3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
> > biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
> > level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
> > can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
> > Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
Just remember, as has been posted before, that the biscuits swell due
to the water in the glue, and they will shrink back somewhat after a
few days. If you sand or scrape the tabletop before they have shrunk
back then you'll be left with slight indentations when they're finished
shrinking. The biscuit-shaped indentations will be visible if you view
the finished top at a glancing angle.
--
Vince Heuring To email, remove the Vince.
Showing your age, Luigi? Me too.
I learned to prepare stock carefully with jointer and planer so that only
minor adjustments were necessary after first snugging the clamps. With a
glueup I can handle with my small stock of Besseys, even the cauls are
unnecessary. I still check with winding sticks, but it's smiles, not frowns
they produce now.
Biscuits are great items for plywood joinery and such, but not really
required for simple glueups.
"Luigi Zanasi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> IME, gluing up a bunch of board with biscuits allows some movement up
> & down and won't necessarily keep it flat (i.e. the glue-up can be
> cupped or twisted). I also have had some differences in the height of
> the boards. Maybe it's the biscuits or the biscuit joiner.
>
> In any case, a better solution, IMHO, is to clamp cauls perpendicular
> to the glue lines, keeping everything nice & flat.
Except, of course, I _have_ used the "new" technique, as well as its
predecessors, splines, dowels and tenons for breadboard ends. Just found
them unnecessary if the boards are properly prepared.
Would that be a new technique for you?
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "George" wrote in message
> > Showing your age, Luigi? Me too.
>
> Yep ... a couple of things that "age" is infamous for is being set in your
> ways, and unwilling to try new techniques. In this case I was glad to
> overcome the tendency.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/10/04
>
>
Exactly what they thought was best. Like putting hand-sawn precious wood
veneer over a cheap substrate.
As biscuits are not structurally important in a glue-up, they wouldn't take
the time to put them in.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> > biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
> > using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
> > (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
> > wood
> > as part of the construction.
>
> I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern
shop.
> Ed
>
>
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:41:42 -0400, "Al Reid"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper and knockdown hardware.
>
> I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about
> "fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary.
> Portability isn't contradictory to quality.
>
> Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century
> secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to
> split in two for shipping and installation.
>
> --
> Smert' spamionam
Not to mention Thomas Jefferson's bookcases.
Mankind has been making portable furniture for as long as we've been making furniture.
That said, I'm still not sure how I feel about biscuits in fine furniture.
--RC
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> > biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
> > using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
> > (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
> > wood
> > as part of the construction.
>
> I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either ;)
>
> I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
> IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
> furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
> because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
> can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them
> with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just
> as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
> chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.
>
> What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
> destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.
>
> I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop.
> Ed
OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners. (I'm less
enamored of their habit of nailing things together.)
Thinking about it a little more, I believe that for me the matter comes down to
how I feel about the piece I'm making. If a technique doesn't 'feel' right for
the piece, I'd prefer not to use it. Thus, I prefer loose tenons to biscuits and
handcut dovetails to routed ones.
Of course I can afford this attitude because I am strictly a hobbyist when it
comes to furniture. For me the most valuable product of that sort of woodworking
is the time spent working wood. We have so little room in our house that any
major pieces I make have to be given away.
--RC
Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail which
gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead
of
> >expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.
>
> But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?
>
Your definition of fine?
I can make KD furniture too. Does that make it "fine?"
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:31:03 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
> >> But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?
>
> >Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail
which
> >gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.
>
> Because you can't ever dismantle them. Definite no-no in fine
> furniture, because a reasonable definition of "fine" is that you're
> expecting someone to still care about looking after it in 200 years
> time.
>
> And you don't need either tapered mortices or glue.
>
> --
> Smert' spamionam
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
> >medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.
>
> No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
> You'll see more treenails than iron nails.
>
> The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.
I was thinking of the strapwork and hinges. In fact it's difficult to do
replicas of early medieval chests and most other kinds of furniture unless
you have access to a blacksmith shop.
--RC
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:08:18 GMT, Rick Cook
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I was thinking of the strapwork and hinges. In fact it's difficult to do
> >replicas of early medieval chests and most other kinds of furniture unless
>
> You mean like this ?
> http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/boxes/sarah/
>
>
> I'd still regard that style as late medieval though. That chest itself
> is more like typical 18th century work in England, although it's based
> on a 13th century Baltic example.
Actually more like this:
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/champeaux/champ04.jpg
We have a number of examples of this sort of chest with the elaborate ironwork
from pre-14th century England. (See also Daniel Diehl's 'Constructing Medieval
Furniture' for additional examples of ironwork on furniture, including a chest
from Oxford.)
>
>
> Most chests, and almost everything early medieval, were devoid of
> ironwork. No strapwork, and hinges were often just a nailed leather
> strip, or a couple of snipe bill hinges (interlocked hairpins).
Well, I don't know about 'most chests', but certainly not all of them by a long
shot, judging by the examples remaining in cathedrals, colleges, etc. You'll
also note that most of the strapwork, hinges, etc. was held on with nails.
Undoubtedly there were a lot of chests and other pieces made without ironwork
of any sort.
>
>
> I took a look around the Red Lodge again last week.
> http://www.bristol-city.gov.uk/mus/redlod.html
> Lots of chests, almost no metal in any of them. A few had the bases
> nailed on, but in at least one of those cases that was later
> repairwork after a grooved side had split out.
>
> The idea of the heavily strapped chest doesn't really show up until
> the Armada chests (there's a nice example in Abergavenny castle
> museum). These were the paychests of the Spanish Armada and had hugely
> complex locks that filled the entire lid, with strapping all around.
> 16th C though.
Well, no. In England at least the heavily strapped chest is a design that goes
back before 1000 AD
>
>
> >you have access to a blacksmith shop.
>
> http://codesmiths.com/shed/armour/
Nice work! However you can make a barrel helm of that pattern without access to
a blacksmith shop. The metalwork is pretty straightforward and mostly bending,
drilling and some punching. (The punching is better done hot, but it doesn't
have to be.) We made a several of them 30 or so years ago with not much more
than hammers and an old stump. (The first one we cut out with cold chisels. The
next one we used a saber saw with metal cutting blades. I really envy you with
the plasma cutter.)
Unless you're willing to settle for really simple designs for the strapwork,
you need the ability to work the metal hot, especially for the splitting and
bending. In other words, a blacksmith's shop.
>
>
> The other problem is finding some iron to work. For those helms it's
> easy enough to cheat with steel, but strapwork doesn't really look
> right unless you used iron.
That is a problem indeed. Around here there's just about none to be had because
this area wasn't settled until after 1850. (Well, there was one maniac I knew
who used to get iron by pulling the spikes out of the supporting timbers in old
mines. That takes more -- ah, 'dedication' than I've got.)
>
>
> I was also working on a chest for LARP-camping last week. An old
> 1900-ish joiner's chest that I was given, with a bunch of repair work
> to it, some forged steel drop handles at each end and an upholstered
> top as a bench seat. Pictures when I've done the upholstery.
>
> --
> Smert' spamionam
Looking forward to seeing it.
BTW: I always understood that an 'ark' was simply a chest with a peaked top,
like a roof. Is there something more to the definition than that?
--RC
[email protected] (tfk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
> glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
> 3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
> biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
> level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
> can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Biscuits will help some, a better alternative is a glue press. I made
a wooden version of the Plano Press. Works great, easy to make and
costs very little. I have no idea how to post a picture on this site,
I could email you a picture and if you know how you could post it for
others.
mike
"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
> Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
> using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
> (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
wood
> as part of the construction.
Yes and no ... depends upon the application to me.
I personally would not consider biscuit joinery in place of traditional
joinery techniques on "fine furniture", but I have no qualms about using
them where one would normally use splines, or similar joinery methods, in
the components of fine furniture.
My use of biscuits in "fine furniture" is generally restricted to two
applications: on large panel glue-up for the alignment convenience, and
occasionally to strengthen miter joints where I don't want to use a visible,
or contrasting color spline, that shows.
Not that it makes a damn, but DJM uses biscuits in more places in his "fine
furniture" pieces than I would, and there is little doubt that he has
reached "master" status ... but then again, it could be that he does that
for public consumption only?
But I know what you mean ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
For simple glue ups, I'll agree. A little longer, and cauls can help. But as
the boards get even longer, even the best preparation won't be enough. That's
where biscuits come into their own.
GerryG
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:44:55 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>Showing your age, Luigi? Me too.
>
>I learned to prepare stock carefully with jointer and planer so that only
>minor adjustments were necessary after first snugging the clamps. With a
>glueup I can handle with my small stock of Besseys, even the cauls are
>unnecessary. I still check with winding sticks, but it's smiles, not frowns
>they produce now.
>
>Biscuits are great items for plywood joinery and such, but not really
>required for simple glueups.
>
>"Luigi Zanasi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> IME, gluing up a bunch of board with biscuits allows some movement up
>> & down and won't necessarily keep it flat (i.e. the glue-up can be
>> cupped or twisted). I also have had some differences in the height of
>> the boards. Maybe it's the biscuits or the biscuit joiner.
>>
>> In any case, a better solution, IMHO, is to clamp cauls perpendicular
>> to the glue lines, keeping everything nice & flat.
>
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:05:38 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
>>medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.
>
>No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
>You'll see more treenails than iron nails.
>
>The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.
Hmmm, is it raining heavily over there?
--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 03:23:23 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
>> biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
>> using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
>> (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
>> wood
>> as part of the construction.
>
>I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either ;)
>
>I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
>IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
>furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
>because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
>can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them
>with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just
>as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
>chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.
>
>What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
>destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.
>
>I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop.
>Ed
Ten to one says most of them would break out in a big old grin, and
latch onto anything and everything that works well and makes the job
easier. Because something is "tradtional" does not always mean that
it is better. Quality is Quality, regardless of the method used to
produce it, and I just can't believe that a well-jointed, solidly
built piece of furniture with a fine finish and attention to detail
made with some manufactured materials and power tools could be
considered somehow inferior to an equivilent piece of work crafted in
a more tradtional fashion. After all, I doubt those old masters
turned up their noses at chisels because back in the mists of time,
people had to use broken bits of rock to make things.
Sure, there's plenty of fun to be had sticking to nostalgic ways of
doing things, but there's nothing wrong with using what you've got!
"George" wrote in message
> Except, of course, I _have_ used the "new" technique, as well as its
> predecessors, splines, dowels and tenons for breadboard ends. Just found
> them unnecessary if the boards are properly prepared.
>
> Would that be a new technique for you?
Not if you can read.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
I don't use biscuit joints for a table top unless it is long (~8'). I try
to glue up slightly less than 15" wide, leaving the thickness 1/16" over. I
then run through my 15" planer to size, then glue up the rremaining panels
to the final width. Unless I have really stable wood, such as 1/4 sawn, I
only glue up 6" or less widths.
Preston
"tfk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
> glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
> 3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
> biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
> level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
> can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
"Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ssK4d.7187$sa.4048@trndny05...
>
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > To each his own. Maybe my bar for "fine furniture" is set too high.
> >
> > todd
> >
> >
>
> Obviously. Modern construction techniques and materials does not equate
to
> Wal-Mart furniture.
>
> --
> Al Reid
Well, that's your opinion, of course. And there's a lot of ground between
Wal-Mart furniture and "fine-quality" furniture, at least in my mind. For
some reason, there's something intrinsically lame about biscuits in my mind
when applied to a piece of furniture that I expect to last well beyond my
lifetime. And this isn't because I've never used them, because I have. I
have a very serviceable Dewalt biscuit jointer that I've used in the past
and intend to use in the future on the right projects. I just try to avoid
them on something I hope will be an heirloom someday. Oh, well...I'm
certainly not in any position to criticize what other people use, so I'll
just do my thing and other people will do theirs. Certainly not as
important as keeping the distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts out of
the White House.
todd
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> writes:
>Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
>biscuits?
A biscuit is just a loose tenon. A biscuit joiner makes the mortices
for the loose tenon.
scott
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
> using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
> (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
> wood
> as part of the construction.
I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either ;)
I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them
with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just
as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.
What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.
I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop.
Ed
In article <[email protected]>, tfk3160
@comcast.net says...
> I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
> glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
> 3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
> biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
> level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
> can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
As a relative beginner (and gadget freak,) I've only used a biscuit
jointer (haven't done butt joints,) and it seems to work as advertised
in the way you describe. However, I found that it was not idiot-proof,
I.e., I had to be very careful aligning my cuts... wasted a bit of wood
initially with the "plug and play" attitude. I'm sure more useful
feedback is impending, though, from more veterans of both butt joints
and biscuit joinery. I have the Dewalt jointer, for what it's worth.
- Al
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> "tfk" wrote in message
> > I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
> > glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
> > 3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
> > biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
> > level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
> > can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
> > Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> I was never much of an advocate of biscuit joinery, but after using them to
> do exactly what you are proposing with table top glue-ups, I became a big
> fan, to the point that I will rarely do a table top glue-up without using
> biscuits.
>
> The big attraction for me are strictly the "alignment" benefits of
> biscuits, particularly in the vertical plane ("tops level", as you say).
>
> They aren't ever perfect, but more perfect than without, IME.
>
> That said, I often make the entire glue-up in one fell swoop using biscuits,
> then rip that into sections that will run through my 13" planer, then a
> final glue up with biscuits again, with fewer (most of the time just one or
> two) glue joints to scrape and level.
>
> If you're so inclined, you can see a rather large table top in the throes of
> the glue-up process on page 5 of my projects journal below (Mission style
> Trestle Table).
Wow, nice site - thanks for putting all that stuff together. Good tip
on the miter saw workstation - I was looking for one of those.
- Al
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> >biscuits?
>
> A biscuit is just a loose tenon. A biscuit joiner makes the mortices
> for the loose tenon.
>
> scott
But are the post-glue up expansion characteristics also true of tenons?
- Al
In article <[email protected]>, tfk3160
@comcast.net says...
> I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
> glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
> 3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
> biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
> level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
> can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
Came into this a bit late. Lots of good advice / opinions. I use a T&G
bit in a router table. Provided all boards are the exact same thickness
it works well. Much better than the results I got from biscuits and butt
joints.
--
Phillip Hansen
Skil-Phil Solutions
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> >biscuits?
>
> A biscuit is just a loose tenon. A biscuit joiner makes the mortices
> for the loose tenon.
>
> scott
That's like saying that 3/4" cherry plywood is the same as solid 3/4"
cherry. Because they serve a similar purpose doesn't mean they're
equivalent. I guess the difference to me is the fact that the biscuit or
plywood is an engineered material. Heck, maybe unless I'm using hide glue
(which I don't), I'm not being consistent on some level.
todd
"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> As a new convert to biscuit joiners, I'd say that it's the easiest
> system I've used,short of drilling and inserting a threaded rod into
> them...
> Faster, stronger and easier than butt joints and very easy to "mass
> produce" the biscuit cuts in all the boards at once to either insure
> good alignment (in the case of the experts here) or an interesting
> stagger effect for folks like me.. *g*
>
> One thing for sure.. I don't think my dowel points will get much use
> now that I have the biscuit jointer.. YMMV
>
>
> Mac
Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
(yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed wood
as part of the construction. I know that no one will ever see it or even
know about it unless I tell them, but I'll know. If I needed to increase
the strength and/or help with alignment, I guess I'd be inclined to use a
cross-grain spline.
todd
"tfk" wrote in message
> I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
> glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
> 3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
> biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
> level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
> can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I was never much of an advocate of biscuit joinery, but after using them to
do exactly what you are proposing with table top glue-ups, I became a big
fan, to the point that I will rarely do a table top glue-up without using
biscuits.
The big attraction for me are strictly the "alignment" benefits of
biscuits, particularly in the vertical plane ("tops level", as you say).
They aren't ever perfect, but more perfect than without, IME.
That said, I often make the entire glue-up in one fell swoop using biscuits,
then rip that into sections that will run through my 13" planer, then a
final glue up with biscuits again, with fewer (most of the time just one or
two) glue joints to scrape and level.
If you're so inclined, you can see a rather large table top in the throes of
the glue-up process on page 5 of my projects journal below (Mission style
Trestle Table).
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
"Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > "mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > As a new convert to biscuit joiners, I'd say that it's the easiest
> > > system I've used,short of drilling and inserting a threaded rod into
> > > them...
> > > Faster, stronger and easier than butt joints and very easy to "mass
> > > produce" the biscuit cuts in all the boards at once to either insure
> > > good alignment (in the case of the experts here) or an interesting
> > > stagger effect for folks like me.. *g*
> > >
> > > One thing for sure.. I don't think my dowel points will get much use
> > > now that I have the biscuit jointer.. YMMV
> > >
> > >
> > > Mac
> >
> > Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> > biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
> > using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
> > (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
wood
> > as part of the construction. I know that no one will ever see it or
even
> > know about it unless I tell them, but I'll know. If I needed to
increase
> > the strength and/or help with alignment, I guess I'd be inclined to use
a
> > cross-grain spline.
> >
> > todd
> >
> >
>
> No problem at all, philosophical or otherwise. My brother has been making
"Fine Furniture" for a living for over 20 years, He
> swears by biscuits. If they're good enough for him, they're good enough
for me.
>
> --
> Al Reid
To each his own. Maybe my bar for "fine furniture" is set too high.
todd
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is
> like using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master
> craftsman (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with
> using pressed wood as part of the construction. I know that no one
> will ever see it or even know about it unless I tell them, but I'll
> know. If I needed to increase the strength and/or help with
> alignment, I guess I'd be inclined to use a cross-grain spline.
>
> todd
>
Well, if it were just Norm, I could write it off to a trim carpentry and
construction background...
But David Marks uses them all the time. Worse yet, he uses them to attach
edging to MDF or plywood panels, some of which he has veneered personally.
;-)
And in some of the works of the Sainted Krenov, veneer over a stable
substrate is taken to a high art.
And many of the better works by artisans of an earlier day are veneered,
for wide range of valid reasons.
Solid wood has its place. But so do other constructions. Not all
furniture with engineered materials come from Walmart.
Patriarch
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:37:22 -0500, Prometheus
<[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
> After all, I doubt those old masters turned up their noses at chisels because back in the mists of time,
>people had to use broken bits of rock to make things.
>
>Sure, there's plenty of fun to be had sticking to nostalgic ways of
>doing things, but there's nothing wrong with using what you've got!
Well said!
Mac
Al Spohn wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> >Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
>> >biscuits?
>>
>> A biscuit is just a loose tenon. A biscuit joiner makes the mortices
>> for the loose tenon.
>>
>> scott
>
> But are the post-glue up expansion characteristics also true of tenons?
In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.
>
> - Al
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Rick Cook wrote:
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:41:42 -0400, "Al Reid"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper
>> > and knockdown hardware.
>>
>> I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about
>> "fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary.
>> Portability isn't contradictory to quality.
>>
>> Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century
>> secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to
>> split in two for shipping and installation.
>>
>> --
>> Smert' spamionam
>
> Not to mention Thomas Jefferson's bookcases.
>
> Mankind has been making portable furniture for as long as we've been
> making furniture.
>
> That said, I'm still not sure how I feel about biscuits in fine furniture.
They're a tool, like any tool. You use them where they're the best
available solution to the problem, and don't use them where there's another
that is better.
Don't get hung up on "this is used in fine furniture and that isn't". Use
whatever is most appropriate to the problem at hand.
> --RC
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:31:03 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
>>> But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?
>
>>Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail
>>which gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.
>
> Because you can't ever dismantle them. Definite no-no in fine
> furniture, because a reasonable definition of "fine" is that you're
> expecting someone to still care about looking after it in 200 years
> time.
I'm sorry, but I don't quite see your point. You can't dismantle a solid
board either so I guess wood has no place in "fine furniture" by your
definition.
> And you don't need either tapered mortices or glue.
>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:17:49 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
>biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
>using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
>(yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed wood
>as part of the construction. I know that no one will ever see it or even
>know about it unless I tell them, but I'll know. If I needed to increase
>the strength and/or help with alignment, I guess I'd be inclined to use a
>cross-grain spline.
>
>todd
>
I think it's a matter of appearances verses skill level...
I'd love to have the skill and knowledge to make things like dovetail
and finger joints, but IMHO, biscuits make the use of fancy joints
more of a trim or appearance thing than a necessary skill to assemble
projects..
I love looking at other folks galleries and seeing the contrasting
color joints and inlays, but I doubt that I'll ever develop the skill
or patience required for those... I guess they're what I consider
"fine" woodworking, a level I'll probably never reach..YMMV
Mac
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:54:46 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
>
>> Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
>> biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
>> using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
>> (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
> wood
>> as part of the construction.
>
> Yes and no ... depends upon the application to me.
>
> I personally would not consider biscuit joinery in place of traditional
> joinery techniques on "fine furniture", but I have no qualms about using
> them where one would normally use splines, or similar joinery methods, in
> the components of fine furniture.
>
> My use of biscuits in "fine furniture" is generally restricted to two
> applications: on large panel glue-up for the alignment convenience, and
> occasionally to strengthen miter joints where I don't want to use a visible,
> or contrasting color spline, that shows.
>
Depends on what you're after too.
If you're after reproducing a traditional piece using traditional
methods, biscuits are out of the question, imo.
But some Normite projects . . . like NYW's entertainment center inspired
by an armoire. No one who knows period furnature would be "deceived" by
modern joinery and plywood in such a piece--you know no "original"
exists.
For modern pieces? *shrugs* Whatever works, taking into account the
goals of the piece.
Queer Eye for the Straight Guy (yes, really) gave me an idea for a piece
involving shelf brackets, though not used the way that week's victim
used them.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:17:49 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
>biscuits?
Not here.
> To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
>using plywood for the top.
You mean that nice stable flat stuff that makes such a good substrate
for veneer ?
>But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed wood
>as part of the construction.
So don't use it. Slide your biscuit jointer sideways to cut a slot,
then stick a solid timber spline in there. Now that's pretty much
"fine furniture" and it barely takes any longer.
--
Smert' spamionam
On 22 Sep 2004 10:47:48 -0700, [email protected] (tfk) wrote:
>I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
>glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
>3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
>biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
>level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
>can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
As a new convert to biscuit joiners, I'd say that it's the easiest
system I've used,short of drilling and inserting a threaded rod into
them...
Faster, stronger and easier than butt joints and very easy to "mass
produce" the biscuit cuts in all the boards at once to either insure
good alignment (in the case of the experts here) or an interesting
stagger effect for folks like me.. *g*
One thing for sure.. I don't think my dowel points will get much use
now that I have the biscuit jointer.. YMMV
Mac
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:41:42 -0400, "Al Reid"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper and knockdown hardware.
I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about
"fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary.
Portability isn't contradictory to quality.
Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century
secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to
split in two for shipping and installation.
--
Smert' spamionam
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:05:54 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
>>expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.
>
>But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?
not that I can see... (pun intended)
Mac
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
>expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.
But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?
On 22 Sep 2004 10:47:48 -0700, [email protected] (tfk) wrote:
>I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
>glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
>3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
>biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
>level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
>can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I made a little cedar tabletop last week, and glued 3 6" planks at
one time by using dowels to keep them aligned. No doubt this would
work for any number of planks, as long as your joints are square and
you don't clamp the piece too hard.
On 22 Sep 2004 10:47:48 -0700, [email protected] (tfk) scribbled:
>I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
>glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
>3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
>biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
>level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
>can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
IME, gluing up a bunch of board with biscuits allows some movement up
& down and won't necessarily keep it flat (i.e. the glue-up can be
cupped or twisted). I also have had some differences in the height of
the boards. Maybe it's the biscuits or the biscuit joiner.
In any case, a better solution, IMHO, is to clamp cauls perpendicular
to the glue lines, keeping everything nice & flat.
e.g. the bottom picture on:
<http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/GluePanel.html&rn=RightNavFiles/rightNavTools>
or
<http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00004.asp>
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:23:32 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>That's like saying that 3/4" cherry plywood is the same as solid 3/4"
>cherry. Because they serve a similar purpose doesn't mean they're
>equivalent. I guess the difference to me is the fact that the biscuit or
>plywood is an engineered material. Heck, maybe unless I'm using hide glue
>(which I don't), I'm not being consistent on some level.
>
>todd
>
I would have to say that woodworking is an art, not a science.... and
how you approach your at is a very individual thing, which I think
that it needs to be to be creative...
I have a friend that does very good work, who refuses to call anything
that isn't finished with hand rubbed oil furniture... he isn't wrong
or right, just doing his thing..
I bought a biscuit jointer because even with a drill press and dowel
points, my joints always need a bit of alignment and sanding... the
biscuit seems to minimize the problem for me, so I use it...
that's why they make paint in all those different colors, so everyone
can have one they like.. *g*
Mac
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:14:53 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
calmly ranted:
>"Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:ssK4d.7187$sa.4048@trndny05...
>>
>> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > To each his own. Maybe my bar for "fine furniture" is set too high.
>> >
>> > todd
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Obviously. Modern construction techniques and materials does not equate
>to
>> Wal-Mart furniture.
>>
>> --
>> Al Reid
>
>Well, that's your opinion, of course. And there's a lot of ground between
>Wal-Mart furniture and "fine-quality" furniture, at least in my mind. For
A lot of ground and an entire ocean.
>some reason, there's something intrinsically lame about biscuits in my mind
>when applied to a piece of furniture that I expect to last well beyond my
>lifetime. And this isn't because I've never used them, because I have. I
>have a very serviceable Dewalt biscuit jointer that I've used in the past
>and intend to use in the future on the right projects. I just try to avoid
>them on something I hope will be an heirloom someday. Oh, well...I'm
>certainly not in any position to criticize what other people use, so I'll
>just do my thing and other people will do theirs. Certainly not as
>important as keeping the distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts out of
>the White House.
Let's keep the distinguished(?) gentleman from Texas out of the White
House for another 4 years, shall we? Vote with your conscience.
--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
On 22 Sep 2004 10:47:48 -0700, [email protected] (tfk) wrote:
>I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
>glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
>3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
>biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
>level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
>can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
=============================
I have not read any of the replies YET....
BUT I do own a PC Biscuit jointer
AND I VERY RARELY USE IT for gluing up table tops ....
takes longer then just gluing them up using clamps alone...
I usually do 3 boards at a time... not 2...
Bob Griffiths...
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
> > biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
> > using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
> > (yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
> > wood
> > as part of the construction.
>
> I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either ;)
Sure I do. In fact, I'm about to put some into a footstool I'm making for
the little ones so they can stop fighting over the one they have. Then they
can go on to fighting about something else.
> I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
> IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
> furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
> because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
> can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did
them
> with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have
just
> as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
> chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.
>
> What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
> destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.
>
> I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern
shop.
> Ed
My deal is that I generally find them unnecessary for the work I've done up
to now. Now, if I was trying to churn out production, that would probably
be a different story and some sacrafice might have to be made for speed.
todd
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
>medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.
No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
You'll see more treenails than iron nails.
The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> To each his own. Maybe my bar for "fine furniture" is set too high.
>
> todd
>
>
Obviously. Modern construction techniques and materials does not equate to
Wal-Mart furniture.
--
Al Reid
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:08:18 GMT, Rick Cook
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I was thinking of the strapwork and hinges. In fact it's difficult to do
>replicas of early medieval chests and most other kinds of furniture unless
You mean like this ?
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/boxes/sarah/
I'd still regard that style as late medieval though. That chest itself
is more like typical 18th century work in England, although it's based
on a 13th century Baltic example.
Most chests, and almost everything early medieval, were devoid of
ironwork. No strapwork, and hinges were often just a nailed leather
strip, or a couple of snipe bill hinges (interlocked hairpins).
I took a look around the Red Lodge again last week.
http://www.bristol-city.gov.uk/mus/redlod.html
Lots of chests, almost no metal in any of them. A few had the bases
nailed on, but in at least one of those cases that was later
repairwork after a grooved side had split out.
The idea of the heavily strapped chest doesn't really show up until
the Armada chests (there's a nice example in Abergavenny castle
museum). These were the paychests of the Spanish Armada and had hugely
complex locks that filled the entire lid, with strapping all around.
16th C though.
>you have access to a blacksmith shop.
http://codesmiths.com/shed/armour/
The other problem is finding some iron to work. For those helms it's
easy enough to cheat with steel, but strapwork doesn't really look
right unless you used iron.
I was also working on a chest for LARP-camping last week. An old
1900-ish joiner's chest that I was given, with a bunch of repair work
to it, some forged steel drop handles at each end and an upholstered
top as a bench seat. Pictures when I've done the upholstery.
--
Smert' spamionam
In article <[email protected]>,
tfk <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have made a few table tops using butt joints mainly. I usually only
>glue up 2 boards at a time so if I need a total of 4 boards this takes
>3 gluing operations. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a
>biscuit joiner allows you to keep the boards stable and their tops
>level during a glue up. My goal is to increase the number of boards I
>can glue at once and reduce the time it takes to level the seams out.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I use my biscuit joiner for this purpose and it works well. I Still
have to sand or plane a little but not much, and it does make lining
the boards up much easier.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]