nn

01/02/2007 12:03 AM

For Mark 618, and others interested in lacquer finishing

This is in response to Mark618's question to about finishing sources.
It was in response to his questions about finishing with lacquer, and
it got some really good responses in the thread. While replying to
Mark, it occurred to me that some of this might be helpful to others
here, since to some finishing is not a favorite task.

This picks up where Mark asked for additional info for books and
links.

I think first, I would go to the library or Barnes & Noble and look at
what they had. Then maybe to Woodcraft. Look and see what they have
that interests you, then buy the book and study it.

Finishing isn't brain surgery, but good finishing is just about as
painful sometimes. It isn't just the application, the actual product,
the prep, the equipment, the mixing, etc. It is also technique, the
weather/humidity, knowing how to compensate for different types of
surfaces (original finish v. refinish, different woods, etc.) and how
your applied products work with each other under different conditions.

Again, not brain surgery, but it can be tricky and here's yet another
example of how: I go to my hardwoods store and pick out my own wood
to make sure there aren't any oil marks from banding, cutters, or a
scoot from the forklift blades. I couldn't get finish on a piece of
walnut a few years ago, no matter how I tried. I really worked at it,
and the finish actually withdrew from those dime sized areas. I
almost gave up, but finally got it covered.

Watching the guys at my local lumberyard band lumber for another
project, I saw them banding 2X4s with nylon bands. The stretcher had
been left in the rain, so they hosed it with some kind of lubricant
they had in the store. It got all over the wood, but since it was for
framing, I didn't care. But I thought about that later when I was
handling the wood.

So, over at the hardwoods store, I asked the manager about that. No
way, he says. None. We got so much crap about the WD40 leaving
"pecker tracks" on the wood we quit using it altogether. Now we
use....... TEFLON based spray. Crap. Why not soak it in motor oil
for a week or so?

The only direction for you I could think to go is to find out what
kinds of materials you want to use and will be using to finish. Learn
how to use those materials and your equipment. Learn products one at
at time, and you will find there are a lot of crossover techniques. If
you want to concentrate on lacquer, learn everything you can about it
and practice your technique on old plywood or sheetrock. And don't
let anyone deter you from using your HVLP/turbine setup. With the
proper aircaps and correct stetup it kicks butt for finishing. I have
read a lot of posts knocking this type of system, but for me, it has
been the best performer. I miss the high pressure days, but believe
me, clients sure don't.

Remember, high quality, expensive products will not make you a good
finisher. They can certainly improve your odds, but nothing beats
good technique. And that only comes with practice. You might feel a
little silly buying a gallon of finish and a couple of gallons of
thinner to spray on junk, buy you have to do it. It is your
investment in your project just like the materials. Just like
learning proper sanding, proper sawing, proper jointer technique, and
anything else you want to do well in the shop. You can practice with
some cheap materials, but why not practice with the stuff you will
want to use on that priceless woodwork? If you can, spend the money
and buy your stuff at a good paint store. Some of the time they
aren't even as expensive as the big boxes.

I think too many people practice on their projects because they
underestimate the task of finishing. My hard headed friends will
spend $300 on wood, 3 months to build something, then do a really bad
spray job on the project, expaining to all that listen how it wasn't
their fault. But those tightwads won't spend a cent on spraying old
plywood to check proper thinning, pressure and pattern. For them,
finishing is a necessary evil that occurs after the real craftsmanship
has happened.

I would spend some time with the books by the first guys that really
took the time to devote a book to finishing. Look for the stuff by
Jewitt, Dresdner and some of the Taunton books. None seem to be
completely comprehensive, but all have good things in them, and in
that case a used book store can really be your friend.

As far as the 'net goes, there is a lot of good (and some not too
good) info out there. This guy has a really good discussion about
lacquers, but take some of it with a grain of salt. I like the fact
that is so comprehensive and accurate as well, but then Russ is that
kind of guy. I have to throw out the 65% rule and the 20 degree rule
because of where I live, but there is plenty of good stuff in this
article to print out and save:

http://tinyurl.com/3xfd4d

Here is another good one, and although it covers application for use
on musical intruments, in our case, wood is wood. The prep steps are
good. This guy likes a specific lacquer, but you can of course use
what you want:

http://tinyurl.com/2mdm4h

Here's a good reference, with some handy charts at the end you can
print out:

http://tinyurl.com/2w8kf3

I believe this is from an old friend's finishing product site, Russ
Ramirez, whom I believe has since sold it:

http://tinyurl.com/2knfrp

The last one. When you are really on your game, you can participate
in the forum. Just reading it is great and it is really geared
towards commercial finishes and equipment. Dumb questions will be
removed (ex. I'm refinishing my back fence - should I use poly or Behr
deckseal), and it isn't for someone just learning. You will hear from
the moderator with a nice warning, and then you will be blocked. I
haven't posted there in a while, but we had a helluva debate about dye
vs. stain under different finishes awhile back. But the "knowledge
base" is fantastic, and it will take a long time to run through all of
it.

http://tinyurl.com/2ofg2l

Good luck, hope all this helps.

Robert


This topic has 5 replies

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to "[email protected]" on 01/02/2007 12:03 AM

01/02/2007 9:08 AM

[email protected] wrote:

> I would spend some time with the books by the first guys that really
> took the time to devote a book to finishing.=A0=A0Look=A0for=A0the=A0=
stuff=A0by
> Jewitt, Dresdner and some of the Taunton books.=A0=A0None=A0seem=A0to=
=A0be
> completely comprehensive, but all have good things in them, and in
> that case a used book store can really be your friend.

I like the one by Bob Flexner as well.

--=20
It's turtles, all the way down

BA

B A R R Y

in reply to "[email protected]" on 01/02/2007 12:03 AM

01/02/2007 6:38 PM

[email protected] wrote:
>
> I think too many people practice on their projects because they
> underestimate the task of finishing. My hard headed friends will
> spend $300 on wood, 3 months to build something, then do a really bad
> spray job on the project, expaining to all that listen how it wasn't
> their fault. But those tightwads won't spend a cent on spraying old
> plywood to check proper thinning, pressure and pattern.

This is so ridiculously true.

Most projects even come with free practice material!

Dt

Dude

in reply to "[email protected]" on 01/02/2007 12:03 AM

01/02/2007 10:10 AM

Something to try.

Years ago I used to paint cars professionally. I ended up writing a
book on lacquer painting. I finished some wood occasionally for boat
fixtures.
There is a product that is used with most spray on lacquers and enamels
called "Fish Eye Remover." I comes in a 4 ounce pump can or squeeze
bottle.
When silicone, or oil, is sprayed in a shop, even over 100 feet away, it
is impossible to get a paint job without the fish eyes.
Clean the surface with a prep cleaner, or lacquer thinner on a rag. Let
dry thoroughly. Tack off with a bee's wax tack cloth, which is cheese
cloth permeated with bee's wax.
Spray a first lacquer coat. If there is minor fish eye add a drop of
Fish Eye Remover to the paint cup. Spray a second coat and the lacquer
will flow over the fish eye making it smoother with each coat. The fish
eye remover makes the paint or finish flow faster so watch you don't
cause a run by putting on too much finish. When you are done, throw away
the rest of the product in the cup or save in a separate clean container
marked as having fish eye remover in it. Clean the cup.
If the flowed over fish eyes still leave a little indentation in the
finish, they can be sanded over and refinished normally after drying or
hardening of the finish. Just use clean sandpaper and a tack cloth
before spraying.

BA

B A R R Y

in reply to "[email protected]" on 01/02/2007 12:03 AM

01/02/2007 6:34 PM

Dude wrote:
> Something to try.
>
> Years ago I used to paint cars professionally. I ended up writing a
> book on lacquer painting. I finished some wood occasionally for boat
> fixtures.
> There is a product that is used with most spray on lacquers and enamels
> called "Fish Eye Remover." I comes in a 4 ounce pump can or squeeze
> bottle.

Just remember... Once you use it, and contaminate your equipment,
you're stuck with it.

That stuff _is_ silicone. It turns your work into one huge fisheye.

I would imagine body shops would just use it as a course of action,
since the typical daily driver car will most likely be silicone
contaminated. I use a "Wax-as-u-dry" product on my truck that I'm sure
contains LOTS of silicone. The body shop that repainted my driver's
side door after the dealership scratched it didn't have problems at all.

A 2 oz. bottle of M.L. Campbell Fisheye Remover still sits unused in my
garage, well away from my shop, for the day I absolutely have to use it.
Sealing it in with Sealcoat is so far, so good! <G>

Mm

Markem

in reply to "[email protected]" on 01/02/2007 12:03 AM

01/02/2007 7:38 AM

On 1 Feb 2007 00:03:12 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Good luck, hope all this helps.

Thanks for compiling that.

Mark
http://home.mchsi.com/~xphome/


You’ve reached the end of replies