You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
You have been introduced to the Eristic and the Elentic without
knowing.
You are the unhappy recipient of 2500 years of codified adversarial
conversation.
And now you are on UseNet.
And you must suffer.
God save us all.
In a more informed, educated, and intelligent environment; these
discussions would not go on.
But, you are on UseNet, and you must suffer.
The Elenctic applies to indirect modes of proof and has been
discountenanced since the time of Classical Greece.
The Eristic describes those given to disputatious and specious
arguments, and these have been fore sworn by intelligent adversaries
since BCE.
Das Glasperlenspiel is a more modern invention and seeks to unify
those glimmers and glammers of rhetorical diatribacal diabolism into a
kind of undescribed gamesmanship, where the winner is merely apparent
and the loser is brother to the winner.
And now you are on UseNet and must suffer.
What term might unify them all and give a point of reference to heap
our disregard upon.
I would submit that the term is, "Sophist".
It is an ancient term, originally intended to mean the transference of
wisdom, but coming to mean the use of rhetoric to overcome a lack of
actual value.
cf: Casuistry, Jesuitical, Miller, Bozarth, Fredfighter, et al...
Beware of Sophistry. It is at best, dishonest, and at worst,
diabolically antithetical to the search for truth.
The concept of the dialogical investigation of the possible and the
true, which is the gift of Fifth Century BCE Socratic enquiry, is
perverted, displaced, retarded and overwhelmed by those Sophistical
bastiges who would pervert honest dialogue in an effort to support
their own misunderstood, poorly intelligenced, unreasoned, and
ultimately wrongminded views.
It is not that they don't have something to say. It is that they say
too much, and that without the underpinning of intellect or a decent
comprehension of moral clarity.
Sophistry is the enemy.
I have seen a thread go on for almost four hundred replies, most of
those from repeat offenders, but some from those who should know
better, including a single, disapproving response from me.
A good argument can be a wonderful thing.
Whether or not that argument belongs on this NG is another issue.
But, if the argument will not be denied, could it not at least be
conducted with a modicum of intelligence, without a use of Eristic,
Elenctic, or Sophistry.
For an argument to have value, there must be a respect for the
confines of the argument. There must be interlocutors of equal merit.
There must be a respect for the truth.
Unfortunately, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".
It makes the progenitors and the interlocutors look like idiots.
And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
only in the interest of quietude.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
> > Every once in awhile it's fun to go over and piss in the fire while
> > the resident Political Scientologists are having their circle jerk.
>
> And that is Usenet in a nutshell.
>
> > Those dudes are living proof that evolution can be bidirectional.
> >
> >
> > "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands,
> > hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
> >
> > HL Mencken
>
> Mencken is my hero.
... and one of my favorite Menckenisms: Love - The delusion that one woman
differs from another.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
Tom Watson wrote:
<snip>
> You have been introduced to the Eristic and the Elen[c]tic without
> knowing.
><snip>
> I would submit that the term is, "Sophist".
>
> It is an ancient term, originally intended to mean the transference of
> wisdom, but coming to mean the use of rhetoric to overcome a lack of
> actual value.
>
><snip>
> Beware of Sophistry. It is at best, dishonest, and at worst,
> diabolically antithetical to the search for truth.
Modern sophistry, yes; ancient, no.
> The concept of the dialogical investigation of the possible and the
> true, which is the gift of Fifth Century BCE Socratic enquiry, is
> perverted, displaced, retarded and overwhelmed by those Sophistical
> bastiges who would pervert honest dialogue in an effort to support
> their own misunderstood, poorly intelligenced, unreasoned, and
> ultimately wrongminded views.
>
> It is not that they don't have something to say. It is that they say
> too much, and that without the underpinning of intellect or a decent
> comprehension of moral clarity.
>
> Sophistry is the enemy.
You're really talking about the sophists on-board, I take it, and using
the ancients as a convenient springboard. Ancient sophists, who are, it
is true, guilty of inventing and promoting the study of rhetoric, were
a broad lot with little in common except for an interest in the logos.
Socrates was among them (that was one of the accusations at his trial,
remember?), yet different in a couple of ways. Nevertheless, there were
some serious philosophers of the logos among them. Gorgias, Prodicus,
Protagoras and others engaged themselves and Socrates in the best
philosophical discussions about logos ever conducted on this planet
(that's of course my opinion). We don't have much of the sophists,
however--and most of the fragments are found in Plato, a hostile
source. Your view is the traditional view of sophists, via Plato, but
for the past century or so (or at least since Grote wrote a fine
chapter on them), they are generally given their due among classicists.
>
><snip>
It's really unfair, I know, to hijack your point, which is about modern
abusers of language and rhetoric, the would-be-clever posters on
Usenet. I apologize. But I revere the sophists and their
contributions--and therefore recoil from the absolutism of Platonic
Forms--so I feel an allegiance to defend them--the ancients that is.
Perhaps there is some middle ground: the acceptance that "rhetoric" is
morally neutral, inescapable in fact, once the logos begins. It's the
quo modo, not the quod, that identifies the speaker as honest or not.
The act of discerning that, as in your own mini-essay, would be
impossible without the sophists' contributions.
First Rome, now Sophists. Are you trying to bait me?
Antilogically yours,
H
...who saw the first HBO Rome yesterday, then watched the History
Channel tonight on Rome (mostly on dining and sexuality). I'm having a
hard time deciding which I hated worse. The HBO was vulgar, worse than
the lurid passages of the imperial gossip-columnist Suetonius. I'm not
talking of nudity etc., of course, I'm referring to the sense of
vulgarity that would make any Caesar, Antony and Octavius [sic] just
like any common idiotic despot. Think what you will of their rule,
common thugs they were not. The HC was also ridiculous in its eagerness
to pander to gossip-column items, then pass them off as if universal.
Vomiting at mealtime was but one example. One or two snippets of
evidence that anyone at all did it, yet the commentator, normally a
respectable scholar, had the gall to assert that it was widespread and
everyone did it. I just don't understand what would make someone deduce
that. Most of their points were fashioned thus, aiming for titillation.
More disappointing than Penthouse's takeover of Caligula--but at least
we could expect it of them.
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:53:19 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:1126054527.ffb4ac5c19660413421a365b034ea902@teranews...
>> > You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
>> >
>>
>> <snip of ??????>
>>
>> > And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
>> > involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
>> > only in the interest of quietude.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> HUH?
>
>(pssst... norm....over here.................you keep him occupied and
>I'll try to steal his bong and thesaurus.... okay???)
Not the bong!!!
Every once in awhile it's fun to go over and piss in the fire while
the resident Political Scientologists are having their circle jerk.
Those dudes are living proof that evolution can be bidirectional.
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands,
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
HL Mencken
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
Swingman wrote:
> "Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Every once in awhile it's fun to go over and piss in the fire while
>>>the resident Political Scientologists are having their circle jerk.
>>
>> And that is Usenet in a nutshell.
>>
>>
>>>Those dudes are living proof that evolution can be bidirectional.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands,
>>>hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
>>>
>>> HL Mencken
>>
>> Mencken is my hero.
>
>
>
> ... and one of my favorite Menckenisms: Love - The delusion that one woman
> differs from another.
>
Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be looking.
j4
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
>
-- snip --
> And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
> involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
> only in the interest of quietude.
And, when you've bumped up your hit, it's better to post on usenet
than fire up your power tools.
Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>Will be trying the stuff between glue-ups on the last committed project=
=2E=20
>>Now that I have the right blades!
>=20
>=20
> I'd be interested to know which blades do it for you as I am licking my=
=20
> chops to get a band saw.
Interesting thought. I must try my scroll saw blades on the bandsaw. lol
Actually I have scroll saw and bandsaw blades now that should work...
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw
Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>Robatoy wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
>>>>news:1126054527.ffb4ac5c19660413421a365b034ea902@teranews...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>><snip of ??????>
>>>>
>>>>>And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those=
>>>>>involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
>>>>>only in the interest of quietude.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>HUH?
>>>
>>>
>>>(pssst... norm....over here.................you keep him occupied and =
>>>I'll try to steal his bong and thesaurus.... okay???)
>>
>>
>>Maybe you could do the same to the guys he's ranting about. Then we can=
=20
>>all be happy... lol
>=20
>=20
> well... we don't have to open posts by people who annoy us, eh?
Nope!
> Personally, I like to stoke the fires under some clown who, in his own =
> mind at least, is absolutely convinced that he has no position and=20
> doesn't want any of us to have one either..LOL (Not talking about the O=
P=20
> here.)
But the hunt for (woodworking) content is becoming a strong time=20
investment...
I have no problems with positions. Missionary _can_ be boring though...
> What a screwed up life, without the rewards of learning new ideas and=20
> concepts, to be convinced that you absolutely know everything.
> What could be more boring than living day-to-day never wanting to try=20
> something new, learn something new, make a mistake..IOW..... grow.
Hunting through the posts of those who...???
> The brainwashed windbags who regurgitate the spoon-fed propaganda, are =
> usually quite funny to me for a while... then, because there's nothing =
> to learn from them, they becomes boring.
Well yeah -- and then you have to winnow... and winnow and winnow and...
> I have turned off all my filters and kill-files because I can resist=20
> opening a posting from a person who i KNOW will bore me.
Same here -- but sometimes the quantity is overwhelming...
> On Topic... have you had a chance to play with some of materials?
Finally have the stuff on the bench. Been working on several projects=20
that hit between the time we originally discussed the stuff and the=20
arrival. The house fix-up, trim projects, lamps and clocks, jewel=20
box... (See pictures on the site if you like.) All time hungry and time=20
demanding.
Been dealing constantly with an on-again off-again house sale. Then I=20
can put the stuff in the new house if the sale is on again today...
Will be trying the stuff between glue-ups on the last committed project. =
Now that I have the right blades!
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw
Tom,
I think you went over the edge on this one!!!
Earth to Planet Tom......
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1126054527.ffb4ac5c19660413421a365b034ea902@teranews...
> You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
>
> You have been introduced to the Eristic and the Elentic without
> knowing.
>
> You are the unhappy recipient of 2500 years of codified adversarial
> conversation.
>
> And now you are on UseNet.
>
> And you must suffer.
>
> God save us all.
>
> In a more informed, educated, and intelligent environment; these
> discussions would not go on.
>
> But, you are on UseNet, and you must suffer.
>
> The Elenctic applies to indirect modes of proof and has been
> discountenanced since the time of Classical Greece.
>
> The Eristic describes those given to disputatious and specious
> arguments, and these have been fore sworn by intelligent adversaries
> since BCE.
>
> Das Glasperlenspiel is a more modern invention and seeks to unify
> those glimmers and glammers of rhetorical diatribacal diabolism into a
> kind of undescribed gamesmanship, where the winner is merely apparent
> and the loser is brother to the winner.
>
> And now you are on UseNet and must suffer.
>
> What term might unify them all and give a point of reference to heap
> our disregard upon.
>
> I would submit that the term is, "Sophist".
>
> It is an ancient term, originally intended to mean the transference of
> wisdom, but coming to mean the use of rhetoric to overcome a lack of
> actual value.
>
> cf: Casuistry, Jesuitical, Miller, Bozarth, Fredfighter, et al...
>
> Beware of Sophistry. It is at best, dishonest, and at worst,
> diabolically antithetical to the search for truth.
>
> The concept of the dialogical investigation of the possible and the
> true, which is the gift of Fifth Century BCE Socratic enquiry, is
> perverted, displaced, retarded and overwhelmed by those Sophistical
> bastiges who would pervert honest dialogue in an effort to support
> their own misunderstood, poorly intelligenced, unreasoned, and
> ultimately wrongminded views.
>
> It is not that they don't have something to say. It is that they say
> too much, and that without the underpinning of intellect or a decent
> comprehension of moral clarity.
>
> Sophistry is the enemy.
>
> I have seen a thread go on for almost four hundred replies, most of
> those from repeat offenders, but some from those who should know
> better, including a single, disapproving response from me.
>
> A good argument can be a wonderful thing.
>
> Whether or not that argument belongs on this NG is another issue.
>
> But, if the argument will not be denied, could it not at least be
> conducted with a modicum of intelligence, without a use of Eristic,
> Elenctic, or Sophistry.
>
> For an argument to have value, there must be a respect for the
> confines of the argument. There must be interlocutors of equal merit.
> There must be a respect for the truth.
>
> Unfortunately, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".
>
> It makes the progenitors and the interlocutors look like idiots.
>
> And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
> involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
> only in the interest of quietude.
>
>
>
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
In article <[email protected]>,
WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:1126054527.ffb4ac5c19660413421a365b034ea902@teranews...
> >>
> >>>You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
> >>>
> >>
> >><snip of ??????>
> >>
> >>>And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
> >>>involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
> >>>only in the interest of quietude.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>HUH?
> >
> >
> > (pssst... norm....over here.................you keep him occupied and
> > I'll try to steal his bong and thesaurus.... okay???)
>
>
> Maybe you could do the same to the guys he's ranting about. Then we can
> all be happy... lol
well... we don't have to open posts by people who annoy us, eh?
Personally, I like to stoke the fires under some clown who, in his own
mind at least, is absolutely convinced that he has no position and
doesn't want any of us to have one either..LOL (Not talking about the OP
here.)
What a screwed up life, without the rewards of learning new ideas and
concepts, to be convinced that you absolutely know everything.
What could be more boring than living day-to-day never wanting to try
something new, learn something new, make a mistake..IOW..... grow.
The brainwashed windbags who regurgitate the spoon-fed propaganda, are
usually quite funny to me for a while... then, because there's nothing
to learn from them, they becomes boring.
I have turned off all my filters and kill-files because I can resist
opening a posting from a person who i KNOW will bore me.
On Topic... have you had a chance to play with some of materials?
In article <[email protected]>,
"Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1126054527.ffb4ac5c19660413421a365b034ea902@teranews...
> > You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
> >
>
> <snip of ??????>
>
> > And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
> > involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
> > only in the interest of quietude.
> >
> >
>
> HUH?
(pssst... norm....over here.................you keep him occupied and
I'll try to steal his bong and thesaurus.... okay???)
In article <[email protected]>,
WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
> Will be trying the stuff between glue-ups on the last committed project.
> Now that I have the right blades!
I'd be interested to know which blades do it for you as I am licking my
chops to get a band saw.
In article <1126092822.12cbb582221a8ea08421628d75577c3d@teranews>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Every once in awhile it's fun to go over and piss in the fire while
Be mindful of the wind direction.
> the resident Political Scientologists are having their circle jerk.
again:..Be mindful of the wind direction.
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1126054527.ffb4ac5c19660413421a365b034ea902@teranews...
> You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
>
<snip of ??????>
> And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
> involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
> only in the interest of quietude.
>
>
HUH?
--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.
Tom Watson wrote:
> Every once in awhile it's fun to go over and piss in the fire while
> the resident Political Scientologists are having their circle jerk.
And that is Usenet in a nutshell.
> Those dudes are living proof that evolution can be bidirectional.
>
>
> "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands,
> hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
>
> HL Mencken
Mencken is my hero.
Chuck Vance (and that too is Usenet in a nutshell)
D Steck wrote:
> Tom,
>=20
> I think you went over the edge on this one!!!
>=20
> Earth to Planet Tom......
>=20
Think he figgers too many other guys went over the edge... and I just=20
might agree there. :-)
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw
A crapload of wierdos said this:
>> >>>You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
>> >><snip of ??????>
>> >>>And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
>> >>>involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
>> >>>only in the interest of quietude.
>> > (pssst... norm....over here.................you keep him occupied and
>> > I'll try to steal his bong and thesaurus.... okay???)
That was hilarious.....
>well... we don't have to open posts by people who annoy us, eh?
So what are we all doing looking at a thread with this subject? (I
only got attracted by all the replies)
I've been a lurker for most of the last 10 years or so...only rarely
comment on those things I have first hand knowledge of.
The amount of useless crap here has been out of control for some time
now, however there is still a LOT of topical skill and knowledge that
comes here, but it is getting to be a smaller and smaller percentage
of the total posts. I'm sure this 4 day old reply will just get buried
under all this volume to be read my pretty much nobody...oh well back
to lurking :)
It's too bad there isn't an equal/better alternative out there.
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
[email protected] chopping out the mortise.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
WW'ing since 1985
Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 08:07:54 -0700, the blithe spirit Luigi Zanasi
<[email protected]> clearly indicated:
>On 6 Sep 2005 21:54:50 -0700, "hylourgos" <[email protected]>
>scribbled:
>>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>><snip>
>>
><snip>
>
>You guys are giving adolescent immaturity waaay too much credit.
I've never figured out why Tawm and others continue to cater to
it by quoting and posting to all their crap on a daily basis.
<sigh>
-------------------------------------------------------------
give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com
i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online
-------------------------------------------------------------
On 6 Sep 2005 21:54:50 -0700, "hylourgos" <[email protected]>
scribbled:
>
>Tom Watson wrote:
><snip>
>
<snip>
You guys are giving adolescent immaturity waaay too much credit.
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html
Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
>>news:1126054527.ffb4ac5c19660413421a365b034ea902@teranews...
>>
>>>You have seen the Glass Bead Game played within your own confines.
>>>
>>
>><snip of ??????>
>>
>>>And, although I may feel that to be an adequate description of those
>>>involved, I would like to see them attempt to better themselves, if
>>>only in the interest of quietude.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>HUH?
>=20
>=20
> (pssst... norm....over here.................you keep him occupied and=20
> I'll try to steal his bong and thesaurus.... okay???)
Maybe you could do the same to the guys he's ranting about. Then we can=20
all be happy... lol
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw