Frame and Panel Door - Need To Offset The Panel

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:12:32 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > OK, so for those of you who have been extremely helpful regarding my
> > kitchen door project, first off I offer my thanks for all the advice so
> > far. That said, the design has changed and I need some more help.
> >
> > Last night I made a full-size prototype of a cabinet door so that SWMBO
> > and I could get a visual. Using stub tenon joints, I centered the 1/4"
> > MDF panel in the frame. I hung the door on an upper cabinet with Comman=
d
> > Strips (love those things!), stepped back and said to myself "Hmm...the
> > reveal around the panel seems too narrow."
> >
> > I then called SWMBO into the kitchen and asked for her opinion, without
> > telling her what I thought. Her first comment was "Can the panel be set
> > back into frame a little farther?"
> >
> > So it now looks that the fairly simple setup used to center the grooves
> > and tenons needs to be scrapped. My questions are these:
> >
> > 1 - How far back can I recess the 1/4" MDF panel in the 3/4" poplar=20
> > frame
> > and still have enough strength to use a simple stub tenon joint? Is 1/8=
"
> > enough frame stock on the inside of the door? Is there a better method=
=20
> > to
> > build the doors, keeping in mind that I don't have a mortising jig,
> > tenoning jig, etc. Just a fairly basic shop - table saw, router table,
> > band saw.
> >
> > 2 - If I can get enough reveal using a stub tenon joint, does the=20
> > process
> > involve nothing more than extra set up time? In other words, instead of
> > flipping the stock end to end to center the groove, I'll have to run th=
e
> > stock through at 2 different fence settings - unless I get a 1/4" kerf
> > blade. For the tenons, once again it would be a matter of cutting one
> > cheek at one dado blade height and then cutting the other at a differen=
t
> > height. If I use the table saw, it's still just a matter of sneaking up
> > on the fit, correct? Of course, the other option is to use a T&G bit an=
d
> > the (new) router table which would mean a one step setup for the groove
> > then one more for tenons.
> >
> > As always, thanks for any advice you can offer and thanks for putting u=
p
> > with what are probably very basic questions as I learn more about these
> > methods.
>=20
> A few years ago, I built some cabinets on our screen porch. I have the=
=20
> panel - 1/2" MDF - off center but toward the front, no more than 1/8"=20
> reveal (I prefer minimal horizontal surfaces, less space for dust to=20
> accumulate).
>=20
> In my case, IIRC, I accomplished the offset by making a rabbet around the=
=20
> panel, keeping the groove in the face frame centered. IMO, you could mov=
e=20
> the groove toward the back, leaving 1/8" on the face frame should be OK.=
=20
> As you said, that will complicate your cutting.
>=20
> You could also do as I did; i.e., skinny down the MDF by making a 1/8=20
> tongue on it but given the inherent weakness of MDF I don't think that=20
> would work well. You could also use 1/8" plywood (door skins) rather tha=
n=20
> MDF.
>=20

I thought of that and had the same concerns about the MDF as you. Not sure =
where to get door skins, but I'll look into it. 1/8" seems really thin to u=
se as the panel itself, plus I'm not sure how the plywood would take paint.

> You could use thicker stock. Unless you have a way of dressing rough=20
> stock, about the only way you could accomplish that is by making it; e.g.=
,=20
> 1/4 ply glued to 3/4 ply (although available, I'm guessing it would be=20
> hard for you to get 1" ply). Of course, you could always buy 5/4 rough=
=20
> stock and have a millwork shop dress it for you. The problem with using=
=20
> thicker stock will be the additional protrusion from the face frame; that=
=20
> could be fixed by insetting the door frame but you might then have a=20
> problem in finding hinges (maybe not, don't know, I've never done it).

3 issues with that suggestion:

1 - Check out the thread related to the DeWalt vs. the Delta TS blades wher=
e I posted a cash flow response to Leon. Thicker stock and mill work makes =
my cash flow in the wrong direction. :-)

2 - One of SWMBO's other comments was the thickness of the 3/4" doors. Yes,=
they stuck out a bit farther than they actually will because of the thick =
command strips I hung the prototype with, but even by themselves they will =
stick out at least twice as much as my current 1/2 overlay-1/2 inset doors.

3 - The inset - hinge issue you mentioned.=20

All in all, more expense and more work.=20

>=20
> Still another possibility is to make the doors with the panels centered=
=20
> then stick a frame around them to increase reveal. There goes your clean=
=20
> look.

Once again, we would have the thickness issue.

>=20
> Oh yeah... you could forget the T & G for the panels and run a rabbet=20
> around the inside of the frame...plop the panel in the rabbet and hold it=
=20
> there with a thin (1/8"), narrow (1/2"?) piece of wood nailed (brads) or=
=20
> glued on. Now - lacking the groove - you have a problem with joining the=
=20
> stiles and rails...two solutions come to mind: half lap or bridle joints.


Yep...I considered the rabbet but hadn't figured out what joint to use. I'l=
l keep that suggestion in mind.=20

>=20
> All in all, I'd tell the wife to learn to love it as is :)

I would (yeah, sure) but I don't really like the look either. In reality, n=
ot liking it means that I don't have to tell her to learn to love it as is.=
Hmm...maybe that's really why I don't like it. ;-)

Anyway, I called MLCS about their #7737 T&G router bit set, which can be us=
ed on stock up to 1.25". This bit can be used to offset the groove and teno=
n, requiring only one pass for each. I explained my set-back issue and he f=
elt confident that a full 1/8" of stock on the back of the door would be fi=
ne.

He even offered suggestions such as doubling up the rails with double sided=
tape to make cutting the tenons quicker/easier.

Thanks for the suggestions.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:23:12 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 11:12 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>=20
> > All in all, I'd tell the wife to learn to love it as is :)
>=20
> Yep, best of all possible worlds.

Uh, yeah, for you guys. You're not the ones that live in my world. :-)

Actually she was very understanding when I told her that any solution other=
than centered was simply going to mean a little more work and a little mor=
e time. I just need to learn (from you guys) how to do it. Her response: "Y=
ou're having fun learning new stuff and we're in no hurry, so go for it."

I think I like her.

>=20
> (I was waiting on you to reply so I wouldn't have to type War and Peace.)
>=20
> Thanks! LOL
>=20
> That said, and if I was simply required to do it with 3/4" thickness=20
> stock, I'd do M&T (floating tenon) first, and traditional M&T second.
>=20
> Router jigs are very doable for floating tenon joinery, they just take ti=
me.

>=20
> But, when you have more time than money ...
>=20
> --

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Oh yeah... you could forget the T & G for the panels and run a rabbet
> around the inside of the frame...plop the panel in the rabbet and hold
> it there with a thin (1/8"), narrow (1/2"?) piece of wood nailed
> (brads) or glued on. Now - lacking the groove - you have a problem
> with joining the stiles and rails...two solutions come to mind: half
> lap or bridle joints.

If'n it were me, I'd do it this way. Bridle joints wouldn't
look out of place in that sort of door, I think. You could
add a decorative plug to make it look like the joints were
pegged thru if you wanted to add a little character.

John

On 1/29/2015 11:12 AM, dadiOH wrote:

> All in all, I'd tell the wife to learn to love it as is :)

Yep, best of all possible worlds.

(I was waiting on you to reply so I wouldn't have to type War and Peace.)

Thanks! LOL

That said, and if I was simply required to do it with 3/4" thickness
stock, I'd do M&T (floating tenon) first, and traditional M&T second.

Router jigs are very doable for floating tenon joinery, they just take time.

But, when you have more time than money ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:23:12 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 11:12 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>=20
> > All in all, I'd tell the wife to learn to love it as is :)
>=20
> Yep, best of all possible worlds.
>=20
> (I was waiting on you to reply so I wouldn't have to type War and Peace.)
>=20
> Thanks! LOL
>=20
> That said, and if I was simply required to do it with 3/4" thickness=20
> stock, I'd do M&T (floating tenon) first, and traditional M&T second.
>=20
> Router jigs are very doable for floating tenon joinery, they just take ti=
me.
>=20
> But, when you have more time than money ...
>=20

Speaking of joint choices...

The idea for this style door came from the fact that my brother had his kit=
chen (actually almost the entire house) gutted and remodeled. (the "almost"=
was that town ordinances prevented him from altering the front 15 or so fe=
et of the structure so everything had to be done behind that)

Anyway, he lives out of town and I took a bunch of photos and measurements =
at his "housewarming" few months ago. The one thing that I forgot to take a=
picture/measurement of was the panel location in the doors. As soon as we =
saw my prototype we realized that his must be set back, so I asked him to m=
easure it and send me a picture of the joinery.

The 3/4" doors have a 1/8" reveal on the inside and about 3/8" on the outsi=
de (his estimation) so that's what I'm going to try next.

The joint they used is interesting. I'm assuming that the taper and roundin=
g is for strength, i.e. maximum wood on the stile near the top of the tenon=
:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/imagejpg1_zps935e8025.j=
pg

"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> OK, so for those of you who have been extremely helpful regarding my
> kitchen door project, first off I offer my thanks for all the advice so
> far. That said, the design has changed and I need some more help.
>
> Last night I made a full-size prototype of a cabinet door so that SWMBO
> and I could get a visual. Using stub tenon joints, I centered the 1/4"
> MDF panel in the frame. I hung the door on an upper cabinet with Command
> Strips (love those things!), stepped back and said to myself "Hmm...the
> reveal around the panel seems too narrow."
>
> I then called SWMBO into the kitchen and asked for her opinion, without
> telling her what I thought. Her first comment was "Can the panel be set
> back into frame a little farther?"
>
> So it now looks that the fairly simple setup used to center the grooves
> and tenons needs to be scrapped. My questions are these:
>
> 1 - How far back can I recess the 1/4" MDF panel in the 3/4" poplar
> frame
> and still have enough strength to use a simple stub tenon joint? Is 1/8"
> enough frame stock on the inside of the door? Is there a better method
> to
> build the doors, keeping in mind that I don't have a mortising jig,
> tenoning jig, etc. Just a fairly basic shop - table saw, router table,
> band saw.
>
> 2 - If I can get enough reveal using a stub tenon joint, does the
> process
> involve nothing more than extra set up time? In other words, instead of
> flipping the stock end to end to center the groove, I'll have to run the
> stock through at 2 different fence settings - unless I get a 1/4" kerf
> blade. For the tenons, once again it would be a matter of cutting one
> cheek at one dado blade height and then cutting the other at a different
> height. If I use the table saw, it's still just a matter of sneaking up
> on the fit, correct? Of course, the other option is to use a T&G bit and
> the (new) router table which would mean a one step setup for the groove
> then one more for tenons.
>
> As always, thanks for any advice you can offer and thanks for putting up
> with what are probably very basic questions as I learn more about these
> methods.

A few years ago, I built some cabinets on our screen porch. I have the
panel - 1/2" MDF - off center but toward the front, no more than 1/8"
reveal (I prefer minimal horizontal surfaces, less space for dust to
accumulate).

In my case, IIRC, I accomplished the offset by making a rabbet around the
panel, keeping the groove in the face frame centered. IMO, you could move
the groove toward the back, leaving 1/8" on the face frame should be OK.
As you said, that will complicate your cutting.

You could also do as I did; i.e., skinny down the MDF by making a 1/8
tongue on it but given the inherent weakness of MDF I don't think that
would work well. You could also use 1/8" plywood (door skins) rather than
MDF.

You could use thicker stock. Unless you have a way of dressing rough
stock, about the only way you could accomplish that is by making it; e.g.,
1/4 ply glued to 3/4 ply (although available, I'm guessing it would be
hard for you to get 1" ply). Of course, you could always buy 5/4 rough
stock and have a millwork shop dress it for you. The problem with using
thicker stock will be the additional protrusion from the face frame; that
could be fixed by insetting the door frame but you might then have a
problem in finding hinges (maybe not, don't know, I've never done it).

Still another possibility is to make the doors with the panels centered
then stick a frame around them to increase reveal. There goes your clean
look.

Oh yeah... you could forget the T & G for the panels and run a rabbet
around the inside of the frame...plop the panel in the rabbet and hold it
there with a thin (1/8"), narrow (1/2"?) piece of wood nailed (brads) or
glued on. Now - lacking the groove - you have a problem with joining the
stiles and rails...two solutions come to mind: half lap or bridle joints.

All in all, I'd tell the wife to learn to love it as is :)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:12:32 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

> > You could also do as I did; i.e., skinny down the MDF by making a 1/8
> > tongue on it but given the inherent weakness of MDF I don't think that
> > would work well. You could also use 1/8" plywood (door skins) rather
> > than MDF.
> >
>
> I thought of that and had the same concerns about the MDF as you. Not
> sure where to get door skins, but I'll look into it. 1/8" seems really
> thin to use as the panel itself, plus I'm not sure how the plywood would
> take paint.

You can get them at Home Depot or Lowes; if not in stock - they usually
are - they can be ordered.

They are normally lauan, sized 36" x 80". Lauan paints fine but if you
want smooth as a baby butt - no grain showing - you would have to fill;
drywall compound works well, sands easily but if you are using water base
paint you would need a coat of shellac or lacquer on top of the compound.

Another source for skinny ply is anyplace that sells wood for airplanes;
it is generally birch IIRC and rather dear.

I'm not sure how well it would serve as door panels either, no stress on
it though so should be OK. The only time I've had occasion to use it was
to make a 24-30" x 72" hollow core door do enclose my water heater, worked
fine for that.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 1/29/2015 11:12 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>
> > All in all, I'd tell the wife to learn to love it as is :)
>
> Yep, best of all possible worlds.
>
> (I was waiting on you to reply so I wouldn't have to type War and
> Peace.)
>
> Thanks! LOL

Always happy to help out :)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net