Humility

In article <[email protected]>, Leon
<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> Our president wants to make community colleges free to all!

Colleges and universities are a hotbed of sexual predation and
assaults... and everybody should be able to go there free!

More tortured logic from the Left...

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 11:03:28 PM UTC-5, [email protected]=
wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 8:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
> > On 1/29/2015 4:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
> >> On 1/29/2015 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>> The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be
> >>> thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that have=
no
> >>> other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reaso=
n
> >>> our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE=
"
> >>> thing that requires no thinking.
> >>
> >> You can not suppress an educated independent population
> >
> > Depends upon who is in charge of the educating and what their agenda is=
.
> >
> > This country has had more money thrown at education than ever before in
> > human history (Detroit school system a case in point), is more
> > suppressed than ever with rights continually under assault by the
> > government and militarized police forces, with more folks in jail (many
> > corporate, for profit systems), more in poverty, and the majority so
> > poorly educated, to the point of barely being qualified to flip burgers=
,
> > that we must rely on visas to fill the spots that require something
> > other than a basket weaving curriculum.
> >
>=20
> You forgot to mention the children that wake up in the morning turn on=20
> the tablet, or computer and text all day until the go to bed that night.=
=20
> Their parents don't notice as they sit around the living room texting=
=20
> all of the people they are aware, of and ignore the kids.
>=20
> With this system, we are developing a dysfunctional society with no=20
> skills for physical iterating with the people around them. Kids that=20
> think they are being harassed if you look at them cross eyed, and get=20
> their parent to take person to court for harassing their children.
>=20

I don't consider it a "system", I consider it bad personal choices on the p=
art of the parents.=20

I've got 2 kids in graduate school, another with a BS degree working in his=
field of study, and a fourth with a pretty good job considering he decided=
that college was not for him at this time.

I feel that I played a huge part in their success.=20

For many years my family was deeply involved in Soap Box Derby racing. 3 of=
the 4 kids qualified for the World Championship Race in Akron, OH multiple=
times (7 trips in total). One of them won the World Championship in the to=
p division. One rule I had is that they didn't race if they didn't work on =
their own cars. Did I expect them to put in as many hours as I did? No, the=
y had other commitments, but I made sure that they were involved in every a=
spect of the builds especially at the beginning of each new process. They w=
ere introduced to metal work, bondo, fiberglass, bondo, weight distribution=
, bondo, etc. Did I mention bondo? It wasn't just about learning hands-on s=
kills, it was more about teaching them that rewards require hard work and w=
hile hard work doesn't guarantee rewards, it greatly increases the possibil=
ity.=20

Yes, they text from sun up to sun down (and in between) but many of those t=
exts are to me. They also know when to put down the phone and concentrate o=
n the tasks at hand.

My point is that we can't blame a "system". There is no rule book for paren=
ting, there are only common sense practices that point your kids down the r=
ight path. It's up to the parents.=20

> It is a losing proposition

I feel like a winner.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:38:03 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon wrote:
>>
>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>> all!
>>
>> I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to
>> those that should not be going to college in the first place.
>> A free college for all will be no different than adding more years
>> to high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not
>> want to be in school in the first place will be there taking up
>> space. I am of the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't
>> directly pay for their higher education will get less from it, what
>> do they have to loose? If you want a lower quality education choose
>> one that is funded by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality
>> health care system, choose one funded by the tax payers.
>------------------------------------------------
>It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>
>That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
>describe above.

2.5? Bs and Cs? In today's colleges? Sheesh!

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 4:43:02 AM UTC-10, RonB wrote:

> We are rank amateurs!

Amateur does not mean unskilled Don't sell yourself short!

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 8:42 AM, RonB wrote:
> > A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color of =
an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at lea=
st 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the 1=
950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.
> >
> > This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the 4th =
coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am doin=
g it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp tabl=
e saw, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over 30=
or 40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.
> >
> > A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is mad=
e of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I wonde=
r if material use was really artistic or just the use of available material=
in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were edg=
e joined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and slide=
mechanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of th=
e double-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these par=
ts on the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool mar=
ks even after years of use.
> >
> > Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs. The =
top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, et=
c. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for da=
ys gently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I l=
aid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is wh=
en it occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplica=
tes--but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the c=
oves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations b=
ecause I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded fiv=
e times for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the w=
all of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship=
were turned on a water or foot operated machine.
> >
> > My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years incl=
uding some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We hav=
e also finished out our entire home.
> >
> > We are rank amateurs!
> >
> > RonB
> >
>=20
> Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thing=
=20
> for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to learn=
=20
> or be taught was more available then as it is today.
> Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and=20
> techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in the=
=20
> hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those=20
> techniques. Think about the great pyramids. ;~)
>=20
>=20
> On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a=20
> testament to accomplishment too.

You hit on a very important and unfortunate point Leon. The "opportunity" =
to learn. I know of a few young ones that would like to take some woodwork=
ing classes in junior high or high school. I only know of one that that th=
e opportunity that I had when I was young. For various reasons, liability =
being the main one, schools have dropped wood classes with no plans to get =
back in. The old, really old, Unisaw that I used in high school is sittin=
g at the end of the current agriculture shop being use for occasional cutof=
f work or as a table. The instructor is wood-trained but said the schools =
don't want to take on the liability of a kid getting injured - football is =
OK, but not woodworking. She also said the introduction of Saw Stop techno=
logy isn't helping because the smaller programs cannot afford to replace pe=
rfectly good Unisaws with new machines.

Very unfortunate in our area. Pittsburg State University (Kansas) is 35 mi=
les away and they have one of the top woodworking programs in the country. =
Westhoff Interiors, a leading Yacht interior company, is on the north edge=
of our town. Westhoff draws some kids into training programs but their be=
st trained come from Pitt State, which in turn pulls students from other ar=
eas. Other than the Joplin area there are few local opportunities for wood=
classes.

Ron

On 1/29/2015 7:42 AM, RonB wrote:
> A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color of an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at least 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the 1950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.
>
> This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the 4th coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am doing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp table saw, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over 30 or 40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.
>
> A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is made of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I wonder if material use was really artistic or just the use of available material in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were edge joined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and slide mechanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of the double-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these parts on the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool marks even after years of use.
>
> Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs. The top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for days gently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I laid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is when it occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplicates--but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the coves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations because I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded five times for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the wall of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship were turned on a water or foot operated machine.
>
> My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years including some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We have also finished out our entire home.
>
> We are rank amateurs!
>
> RonB
>

Yessir.
I can't imagine producing some of the wooden treasures that true
craftsmen turned out using just hand tools.
I have built some projects of which I am somewhat proud but I had the
advantage of purpose made tools that allowed me to do it.

I am a woodworker but they were artists.

Leon wrote:
>
> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
> all!
>
> I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to
> those that should not be going to college in the first place.
> A free college for all will be no different than adding more years
> to high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not
> want to be in school in the first place will be there taking up
> space. I am of the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't
> directly pay for their higher education will get less from it, what
> do they have to loose? If you want a lower quality education choose
> one that is funded by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality
> health care system, choose one funded by the tax payers.
------------------------------------------------
It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.

That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
describe above.

Lew

On 1/30/2015 9:30 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 11:03:28 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 1/29/2015 8:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2015 4:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>>>> On 1/29/2015 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be
>>>>> thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that have no
>>>>> other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reason
>>>>> our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE"
>>>>> thing that requires no thinking.
>>>>
>>>> You can not suppress an educated independent population
>>>
>>> Depends upon who is in charge of the educating and what their agenda is.
>>>
>>> This country has had more money thrown at education than ever before in
>>> human history (Detroit school system a case in point), is more
>>> suppressed than ever with rights continually under assault by the
>>> government and militarized police forces, with more folks in jail (many
>>> corporate, for profit systems), more in poverty, and the majority so
>>> poorly educated, to the point of barely being qualified to flip burgers,
>>> that we must rely on visas to fill the spots that require something
>>> other than a basket weaving curriculum.
>>>
>>
>> You forgot to mention the children that wake up in the morning turn on
>> the tablet, or computer and text all day until the go to bed that night.
>> Their parents don't notice as they sit around the living room texting
>> all of the people they are aware, of and ignore the kids.
>>
>> With this system, we are developing a dysfunctional society with no
>> skills for physical iterating with the people around them. Kids that
>> think they are being harassed if you look at them cross eyed, and get
>> their parent to take person to court for harassing their children.
>>
>
> I don't consider it a "system", I consider it bad personal choices on the part of the parents.
>
> I've got 2 kids in graduate school, another with a BS degree working in his field of study, and a fourth with a pretty good job considering he decided that college was not for him at this time.
>
> I feel that I played a huge part in their success.
>
> For many years my family was deeply involved in Soap Box Derby racing. 3 of the 4 kids qualified for the World Championship Race in Akron, OH multiple times (7 trips in total). One of them won the World Championship in the top division. One rule I had is that they didn't race if they didn't work on their own cars. Did I expect them to put in as many hours as I did? No, they had other commitments, but I made sure that they were involved in every aspect of the builds especially at the beginning of each new process. They were introduced to metal work, bondo, fiberglass, bondo, weight distribution, bondo, etc. Did I mention bondo? It wasn't just about learning hands-on skills, it was more about teaching them that rewards require hard work and while hard work doesn't guarantee rewards, it greatly increases the possibility.
>
> Yes, they text from sun up to sun down (and in between) but many of those texts are to me. They also know when to put down the phone and concentrate on the tasks at hand.
>
> My point is that we can't blame a "system". There is no rule book for parenting, there are only common sense practices that point your kids down the right path. It's up to the parents.
>
>> It is a losing proposition
>
> I feel like a winner.
>

Bingo! Parental involvement.

Leon wrote:

> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
> all!
------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>>
>> That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
>> describe above.
-------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:

> Well that would make a difference.... Whew! But still, I don't
> think you could expect anything much better that a HS teacher
> instructing the class.
--------------------------------------------------
Why is that?

Lew

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects that
> darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs the
> education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new K-16.

Do we really need to put people through 17 years of formal education? Even
13 years is too much for some people. What it seems a good many people
haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
back.

*snip*

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:c-KdnZgJJLl0dVHJnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]:

> On 1/31/2015 12:59 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>
>>
>> What it seems a good many people
>> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
>> back.
>
> Hmmm, I've read that a few time and do not understand.. Could you give
> an example?
>

It seems I didn't write it well enough to get my point across. I'll
rewrite it:

After a point, additional schooling just wastes a person's time.

For the type that work with their hands, it's sometimes better to get out
of the classroom and in to the shop where they can make mistakes and
actually engage in learning.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Leon" wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Leon wrote:
>>
>>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>>> all!
------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>>>>
>>>> That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
>>>> describe above.
-------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:
>>
>>> Well that would make a difference.... Whew! But still, I don't
>>> think you could expect anything much better that a HS teacher
>>> instructing the class.
--------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Why is that?
---------------------------------------------------

> Given how much in debt the government is as a base for comparison,
> of all the money the tax payers give the government, how much do you
> suppose will actually go towards an intended purpose.
>
> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects
> that darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs
> the education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new
> K-16.
>
> Private enterprise will always trump the government in production
> and results. Private enterprises have to run efficiently or they
> don't exist. This is not true with the government.
>
> While private college professors are not all being paid near what
> the colleges collect for tuition I can assure you that a government
> paid system is going to pay those professors even less. Where do
> you think the smart professors are going to work?
------------------------------------------------------------
You're not old enough to remember the GI Bill offered to vets
returning from WWII.

It was attacked as being a gov't handout; however, in the end it
turned out to be
the best investment the gov't ever made.

It developed a generation of trained college graduates, most of them
were the first
in the their family to graduate, that drove the last half of the 20th
century.

The increase in income taxes paid the direct cost of the program and
the increase
in an educated work force put us on the moon.

This proposed program is aimed at the community college programs.

Programs that are 2 years aimed at directly providing qualified people
to staff
the local market opportunities.

The program is optional. No one is holding a gun to some ones head to
sign up.

Rather it provides a means to attend a community college and learn a
skill set
that is needed in the local area.

It sets the hook to get a degree by requiring that a 2.5 GPA is
maintained to qualify.

Everybody wins on this one including the skeptics who are convinced
that gov't
is a waste.

Yes, the gov't is not the most efficient way of doing some things, but
the do
provide the best way some other things.

Things that the private sector either can not or will not provide.

Even Barry Goldwater recognized that gov't provides a unique service
the
private sector doesn't provide.

Only took him about 3-4 terms to gain that perspective.

Lew

On 1/31/2015 3:07 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:c-KdnZgJJLl0dVHJnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]:
>
>> On 1/31/2015 12:59 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What it seems a good many people
>>> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
>>> back.
>>
>> Hmmm, I've read that a few time and do not understand.. Could you give
>> an example?
>>
>
> It seems I didn't write it well enough to get my point across. I'll
> rewrite it:
>
> After a point, additional schooling just wastes a person's time.
>
> For the type that work with their hands, it's sometimes better to get out
> of the classroom and in to the shop where they can make mistakes and
> actually engage in learning.
>
> Puckdropper
>

I think the dentist I recently visited took your advice.

Leon wrote:

>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>> all!
------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>>>
>>> That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
>>> describe above.
-------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:
>
>> Well that would make a difference.... Whew! But still, I don't
>> think you could expect anything much better that a HS teacher
>> instructing the class.
--------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Why is that?
---------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:

> Given how much in debt the government is as a base for comparison,
> of all the money the tax payers give the government, how much do you
> suppose will actually go towards an intended purpose.

> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects
> that darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs
> the education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new
> K-16.

> Private enterprise will always trump the government in production
> and results. Private enterprises have to run efficiently or they
> don't exist. This is not true with the government.
>
> While private college professors are not all being paid near what
> the colleges collect for tuition I can assure you that a government
> paid system is going to pay those professors even less. Where do
> you think the smart professors are going to work?
------------------------------------------------------------
> You're not old enough to remember the GI Bill offered to vets
> returning from WWII.
>
> It was attacked as being a gov't handout; however, in the end it
> turned out to be
> the best investment the gov't ever made.
>
> It developed a generation of trained college graduates, most of them
> were the first
> in the their family to graduate, that drove the last half of the
> 20th
> century.
>
> The increase in income taxes paid the direct cost of the program and
> the increase
> in an educated work force put us on the moon.
>
> This proposed program is aimed at the community college programs.
>
> Programs that are 2 years aimed at directly providing qualified
> people
> to staff
> the local market opportunities.
>
> The program is optional. No one is holding a gun to some ones head
> to
> sign up.
>
> Rather it provides a means to attend a community college and learn a
> skill set
> that is needed in the local area.
>
> It sets the hook to get a degree by requiring that a 2.5 GPA is
> maintained to qualify.
>
> Everybody wins on this one including the skeptics who are convinced
> that gov't
> is a waste.
>
> Yes, the gov't is not the most efficient way of doing some things,
> but
> the do
> provide the best way some other things.
>
> Things that the private sector either can not or will not provide.
>
> Even Barry Goldwater recognized that gov't provides a unique service
> the
> private sector doesn't provide.
>
> Only took him about 3-4 terms to gain that perspective.
>
> Lew
------------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:

> But with all due respect, that was not a time of entitlement like it
> is now and the government was not as out of control as it is now.
---------------------------------------------------------
Pray tell what the devil arre you talking about?

Lew

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 12:17:12 PM UTC-5, [email protected] w=
rote:

...snip...

> The problem that I mentioned above is that the parents of these kids=20
> think it is acceptable when people come over to their house to go to the=
=20
> computer in the back room and only appear periodically. OR to set=20
> around the room with their guest ignoring them and texting to the=20
> worlds. They are setting a great example for the kids with their parent=
=20
> behavior, see nothing wrong with the same behavior.
>=20

...snip...

It makes you wonder what the parent's parents were like. Mine were fairly s=
trict and I know that my grandparents were even more so, at least on my dad=
's side. I didn't realize how much I really liked/understood my dad until I=
was already out of the house and raising my own kids. It took longer than =
it should have for it all to sink in. I'm extremely thankful that my kids s=
eem to have gotten the picture much sooner than I did. I can't say for sure=
that they didn't like me when they were younger, but they sure do now. Not=
as much as they like mom...that's a competition I'll never win - nor would=
I want to. ;-)

On 1/29/2015 10:05 AM, RonB wrote:
> On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/29/2015 8:42 AM, RonB wrote:
>>> A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color of an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at least 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the 1950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.
>>>
>>> This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the 4th coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am doing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp table saw, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over 30 or 40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.
>>>
>>> A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is made of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I wonder if material use was really artistic or just the use of available material in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were edge joined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and slide mechanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of the double-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these parts on the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool marks even after years of use.
>>>
>>> Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs. The top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for days gently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I laid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is when it occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplicates--but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the coves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations because I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded five times for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the wall of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship were turned on a water or foot operated machine.
>>>
>>> My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years including some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We have also finished out our entire home.
>>>
>>> We are rank amateurs!
>>>
>>> RonB
>>>
>>
>> Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thing
>> for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to learn
>> or be taught was more available then as it is today.
>> Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and
>> techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in the
>> hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those
>> techniques. Think about the great pyramids. ;~)
>>
>>
>> On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a
>> testament to accomplishment too.
>
> You hit on a very important and unfortunate point Leon. The "opportunity" to learn. I know of a few young ones that would like to take some woodworking classes in junior high or high school. I only know of one that that the opportunity that I had when I was young. For various reasons, liability being the main one, schools have dropped wood classes with no plans to get back in. The old, really old, Unisaw that I used in high school is sitting at the end of the current agriculture shop being use for occasional cutoff work or as a table. The instructor is wood-trained but said the schools don't want to take on the liability of a kid getting injured - football is OK, but not woodworking. She also said the introduction of Saw Stop technology isn't helping because the smaller programs cannot afford to replace perfectly good Unisaws with new machines.
>
> Very unfortunate in our area. Pittsburg State University (Kansas) is 35 miles away and they have one of the top woodworking programs in the country. Westhoff Interiors, a leading Yacht interior company, is on the north edge of our town. Westhoff draws some kids into training programs but their best trained come from Pitt State, which in turn pulls students from other areas. Other than the Joplin area there are few local opportunities for wood classes.
>
> Ron
>

It is sad. Our country is becoming soooooo politically correct and
recklessness letting the lawyers go after any one that might do
something as simple as teach some one how to strike a match that we are
loosing the ability to actually think and innovate. Let alone do for
ourselves.
The thinking that it would be too expensive to spend $5K to replace a
new saw is ludicrous. The life long skills that could be taught in a
wood shop would be thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating
those that have no other skill and peddle crack on the street corner.
For some odd reason our mentality is switching over to the idea of
knowing how to do "ONE" thing that requires no thinking.
The grocery store cashier from the 70's would look like a genius
compared to those that take you money these days.

On 1/31/2015 2:23 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 1/31/2015 10:25 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Over qualified. During periods of economic down turns, like the one
>> that we are starting to recover from, there are lay offs and college
>> kids graduating. They are all hunting for jobs. Typically when there
>> are cut backs/lay offs, those that are the least important to the
>> company are let go. Those that immediately find jobs are not over
>> qualified. Those that can't find a job, even when people are being
>> hired, are over qualified for the jobs they are seeking.
>>
>> And if you read between the lines, over qualified can also be defined as
>> educated well beyond ones intelligence level. If you don't know how to
>> apply and sell yourself with what you have been taught you are over
>> qualified for the job you are turned down for.
>>
>
>
> We have that situation now. I don't think it would get any worse by
> educating people more, given a proper education. By proper, I mean
> something usable. I have a PhD in 4th century Greek sculpture and can't
> find a job in my field.
>
> My point is, having the opportunity for an education does not lead to
> the problem it is what you do with it. Instead of Greek scupture, go
> into the medical field where there is a steady demand, or maybe
> engineering, or even learn a trade.

I think we agree. Better educated is not the problem but can compound
the problem.

And while, thank goodness, we still have people in this country that can
be trained or educated to do most anything....the vast majority is not
going to do well with that process.




>
> There are some professional students that will stay in school as long as
> mom and day foot the bill. They have no direction and will be
> overqualified if they ever do get kicked out of the house.
>
> The higher education system needs serious overhaul. Tuition is going up
> much faster than the cost of living and inflation rates The tuition at
> UCONN is up 6% and the president got a 20% raise. Yeah, that makes
> sense. Tough getting by on only $750,000 a year.

Agreed. But giving away an education seems, to me, to be the wrong road
to an overhaul.

On 1/29/2015 7:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:

>>>
>>> It is sad. Our country is becoming soooooo politically correct and
>>> recklessness letting the lawyers go after any one that might do
>>> something as simple as teach some one how to strike a match that we are
>>> loosing the ability to actually think and innovate. Let alone do for
>>> ourselves.
>>> The thinking that it would be too expensive to spend $5K to replace a
>>> new saw is ludicrous. The life long skills that could be taught in a
>>> wood shop would be thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating
>>> those that have no other skill and peddle crack on the street corner.
>>> For some odd reason our mentality is switching over to the idea of
>>> knowing how to do "ONE" thing that requires no thinking.
>>> The grocery store cashier from the 70's would look like a genius
>>> compared to those that take you money these days.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to all!
>>
>> I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to those
>> that should not be going to college in the first place.
>> A free college for all will be no different than adding more years to
>> high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not want to
>> be in school in the first place will be there taking up space. I am of
>> the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't directly pay for
>> their higher education will get less from it, what do they have to
>> loose? If you want a lower quality education choose one that is funded
>> by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality health care system,
>> choose one funded by the tax payers.
>
> If you think a college education is expensive now, just wait until
> it's free!

Exactly and the waste will be sad. A dollar goes in and maybe 20 cents
goes toward the education. If the government is involved in your
education you can rest assured that you can look anywhere else and get a
better one.



>
> Was listening to a talk show about this exact issue yesterday. The
> host had gone to Germany to participate in an education seminar. The
> German participants, without exception, agreed with you.
>>
>> I will get down off of my soap box. ;~)
>>
>> AND I did not mean to hi-jack your thread, I did appreciate your
>> thoughts on how much more adapt we as a society were 100 years ago.
>>
>>
>>
>>

On 1/31/2015 8:54 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 1/29/15, 6:38 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>>> all!
>>>
>>> I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to
>>> those that should not be going to college in the first place.
>>> A free college for all will be no different than adding more years
>>> to high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not
>>> want to be in school in the first place will be there taking up
>>> space. I am of the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't
>>> directly pay for their higher education will get less from it, what
>>> do they have to loose? If you want a lower quality education choose
>>> one that is funded by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality
>>> health care system, choose one funded by the tax payers.
>> ------------------------------------------------
>> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>
> I also saw a requirement for 50% attendance.

OMG! You only need to attend half of your classes....

Here is what the government is doing, it is finding something for idle
hands to do for the next 4 years when they can't find jobs.

On 1/31/2015 8:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 1/31/2015 12:59 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>
>>
>> What it seems a good many people
>> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
>> back.
>
> Hmmm, I've read that a few time and do not understand.. Could you give
> an example?
>


Over qualified. During periods of economic down turns, like the one
that we are starting to recover from, there are lay offs and college
kids graduating. They are all hunting for jobs. Typically when there
are cut backs/lay offs, those that are the least important to the
company are let go. Those that immediately find jobs are not over
qualified. Those that can't find a job, even when people are being
hired, are over qualified for the jobs they are seeking.

And if you read between the lines, over qualified can also be defined as
educated well beyond ones intelligence level. If you don't know how to
apply and sell yourself with what you have been taught you are over
qualified for the job you are turned down for.

In addition an overqualified person can be a risk. He is desperate to
find a job to support his financial needs and in a tight market will
jump at anything to have income. If the economy improves or a job that
suites his qualifications better comes up, he is gone. A workforce is
going to be more stable when it's qualifications match it's pay level.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 2:07:26 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 10:05 AM, RonB wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> >> On 1/29/2015 8:42 AM, RonB wrote:
> >>> A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color o=
f an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at l=
east 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the=
1950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.
> >>>
> >>> This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the 4t=
h coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am do=
ing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp ta=
ble saw, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over =
30 or 40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.
> >>>
> >>> A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is m=
ade of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I won=
der if material use was really artistic or just the use of available materi=
al in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were e=
dge joined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and sli=
de mechanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of =
the double-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these p=
arts on the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool m=
arks even after years of use.
> >>>
> >>> Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs. Th=
e top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, =
etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for =
days gently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I=
laid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is =
when it occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near dupli=
cates--but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the=
coves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations=
because I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded f=
ive times for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the=
wall of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmansh=
ip were turned on a water or foot operated machine.
> >>>
> >>> My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years in=
cluding some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We h=
ave also finished out our entire home.
> >>>
> >>> We are rank amateurs!
> >>>
> >>> RonB
> >>>
> >>
> >> Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thi=
ng
> >> for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to lea=
rn
> >> or be taught was more available then as it is today.
> >> Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and
> >> techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in th=
e
> >> hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those
> >> techniques. Think about the great pyramids. ;~)
> >>
> >>
> >> On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a
> >> testament to accomplishment too.
> >
> > You hit on a very important and unfortunate point Leon. The "opportuni=
ty" to learn. I know of a few young ones that would like to take some wood=
working classes in junior high or high school. I only know of one that tha=
t the opportunity that I had when I was young. For various reasons, liabil=
ity being the main one, schools have dropped wood classes with no plans to =
get back in. The old, really old, Unisaw that I used in high school is si=
tting at the end of the current agriculture shop being use for occasional c=
utoff work or as a table. The instructor is wood-trained but said the scho=
ols don't want to take on the liability of a kid getting injured - football=
is OK, but not woodworking. She also said the introduction of Saw Stop te=
chnology isn't helping because the smaller programs cannot afford to replac=
e perfectly good Unisaws with new machines.
> >
> > Very unfortunate in our area. Pittsburg State University (Kansas) is 3=
5 miles away and they have one of the top woodworking programs in the count=
ry. Westhoff Interiors, a leading Yacht interior company, is on the north =
edge of our town. Westhoff draws some kids into training programs but thei=
r best trained come from Pitt State, which in turn pulls students from othe=
r areas. Other than the Joplin area there are few local opportunities for =
wood classes.
> >
> > Ron
> >
>=20
> It is sad. Our country is becoming soooooo politically correct and=20
> recklessness letting the lawyers go after any one that might do=20
> something as simple as teach some one how to strike a match that we are=
=20
> loosing the ability to actually think and innovate. Let alone do for=20
> ourselves.
> The thinking that it would be too expensive to spend $5K to replace a=20
> new saw is ludicrous. The life long skills that could be taught in a=20
> wood shop would be thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating=
=20
> those that have no other skill and peddle crack on the street corner.=20
> For some odd reason our mentality is switching over to the idea of=20
> knowing how to do "ONE" thing that requires no thinking.
> The grocery store cashier from the 70's would look like a genius=20
> compared to those that take you money these days.

Yeah but budgets is budgets and rural schools, such as ours, feel the crunc=
h. We have an excellent school that only exists because locals came up wit=
h a large amount of cash to supplement a bond issue to build a needed high =
school. Our alumni association manages a portfolio that pays a $30K annual=
payment against the bond and at the end of the 30 year bond period we wil=
l pay off the rest. We run fund raisers and beg to get together enough ca=
sh for lights for a baseball field. Then we hear about the poor KC area s=
chools who are afraid they might not be able to afford an indoor practice f=
acility until next year. Academic metrics for our school are among the bes=
t but we struggle constantly for survival. =20

Oh Well. I guess that was a digression. :o)

On 1/31/2015 5:07 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

> It seems I didn't write it well enough to get my point across. I'll
> rewrite it:
>
> After a point, additional schooling just wastes a person's time.
>
> For the type that work with their hands, it's sometimes better to get out
> of the classroom and in to the shop where they can make mistakes and
> actually engage in learning.
>
> Puckdropper
>

OK, I don't think any education is wasted but agree, at some point you
do have to change priorities and earn your way through life.

On 1/30/2015 12:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 12:17:12 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
>> The problem that I mentioned above is that the parents of these kids
>> think it is acceptable when people come over to their house to go to the
>> computer in the back room and only appear periodically. OR to set
>> around the room with their guest ignoring them and texting to the
>> worlds. They are setting a great example for the kids with their parent
>> behavior, see nothing wrong with the same behavior.
>>
>
> ...snip...
>
> It makes you wonder what the parent's parents were like. Mine were fairly strict and I know that my grandparents were even more so, at least on my dad's side. I didn't realize how much I really liked/understood my dad until I was already out of the house and raising my own kids. It took longer than it should have for it all to sink in. I'm extremely thankful that my kids seem to have gotten the picture much sooner than I did. I can't say for sure that they didn't like me when they were younger, but they sure do now. Not as much as they like mom...that's a competition I'll never win - nor would I want to. ;-)
>

My parents were strict and I thought I would be also. That did not
happen. I simply did not lie to our son regardless of what the topic
was, well Santa Claus might be an exception, and I taught him by
example. It worked better than my wildest expectations.

My parents, shall we say, were sometimes less than truthful. If you are
not honest with your kids you are only fooling yourself if you think
they are going to respect and listen to everything you say. The belt or
being grounded makes kids mind and teaches them to not get caught, but
does it explain what they actually did wrong? Typically kids are going
to learn and do as their parents show and do. Always pretend that our
kids are watching you and be honest with them and I don't think you will
be disappointed.

When my son was young, 10ish, my wife and I became debt free, we owed
nobody. I did not really preach to my 10 year old son what was going on
and how to get there as this was above his head.
Go forward 12 years and my son has had a masters degree, 1 year later he
has his is a CPA license, and at 25 he too is a dept free home owner.
I'm certainly not smart to teach this and the schools certainly don't
stress the importance of not being debt.

The other day he told me something that totally got my attention...
He pays more in income taxes than he does for all other experiences
combined. I recall topping out in SS taxes at one point in my life but
never ever spent less to live than what I paid the government.

On 1/30/2015 3:37 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>> all!
> ------------------------------------------------
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>>>
>>> That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
>>> describe above.
> -------------------------------------------------
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> Well that would make a difference.... Whew! But still, I don't
>> think you could expect anything much better that a HS teacher
>> instructing the class.
> --------------------------------------------------
> Why is that?
>
> Lew
>
>

Given how much in debt the government is as a base for comparison, of
all the money the tax payers give the government, how much do you
suppose will actually go towards an intended purpose.

Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects that
darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs the
education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new K-16.

Private enterprise will always trump the government in production and
results. Private enterprises have to run efficiently or they don't
exist. This is not true with the government.

While private college professors are not all being paid near what the
colleges collect for tuition I can assure you that a government paid
system is going to pay those professors even less. Where do you think
the smart professors are going to work?

On 1/31/2015 12:27 AM, Bill wrote:
> Puckdropper wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> *snip*
>>
>>> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects that
>>> darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
>>> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs the
>>> education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new K-16.
>> Do we really need to put people through 17 years of formal education?
>> Even
>> 13 years is too much for some people.
>
> I didn't here the president say he was forcing anyone to go
> (please pardon me for not reading all of the preceding messages of this
> thread). I'm hope you're not saying that you have figured out a way to
> filter out some of those who would like to go.

Well I did not listen to him either but the notion of making yet another
thing free, for the taxpayers to pay for, will with a certainty end up
as unsuccessful as most any thing else the government participates in.

As far as forcing students to go I have a couple of thoughts.
A. There are millions of HS drop outs so the government does not do a
good job at keeping kids in school either. The number of students that
actually attend does not affect the cost to educate them. The cost is
the same whether there are 15 or 30 students in any particular class.
B. There is a vast number of students that pay for their higher
education and should not be in college. When college students end up
not going into the field in which they studied, what good is that
$60,000 of debt which will take 30 years to pay off with a job paying
$20,000 a year?
C. Countless families will continue to support and let their kids live
at home as long as they are in school. This turns into 4 more years of
HS quality education that the dead beat kid will attend so that he does
not have to gout and support himself.



Again I will say that a free education sounds good but in reality you
often get what you pay for.





>
>
>> What it seems a good many people
>> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
>> back.
>>
>> *snip*
>>
>> Puckdropper
>

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

[Re: "free" community college]

> Here is what the government is doing, it is finding something for idle
> hands to do for the next 4 years when they can't find jobs.

DING DING DING! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.

On 1/31/2015 9:30 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> [Re: "free" community college]
>
>> Here is what the government is doing, it is finding something for idle
>> hands to do for the next 4 years when they can't find jobs.
>
> DING DING DING! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.

Oh, oh ... now you'll really get him wound up.

(Disclaimer: I agree with everything Leon as stated thus far)


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/29/2015 2:07 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 10:05 AM, RonB wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2015 8:42 AM, RonB wrote:
>>>> A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color
>>>> of an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes
>>>> back at least 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and
>>>> stained it in the 1950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.
>>>>
>>>> This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the
>>>> 4th coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly
>>>> well. I am doing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15"
>>>> surface planer, 5hp table saw, wood lathe and other power and hand
>>>> tools I have accumulated over 30 or 40 years of woodworking and
>>>> general tinkering.
>>>>
>>>> A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is
>>>> made of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully
>>>> combined. I wonder if material use was really artistic or just the
>>>> use of available material in a small, shop. The red oak top is made
>>>> of 4" wide boards that were edge joined with a modified tongue and
>>>> groove edge. The under-frame and slide mechanism, that allows it to
>>>> be expanded, needed a little work. Some of the double-dovetail
>>>> slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these parts on the
>>>> table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool marks
>>>> even after years of use.
>>>>
>>>> Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs.
>>>> The top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with
>>>> decorative rings, etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn
>>>> design that kept us busy for days gently removing the old finish
>>>> with toothbrushes. The other morning I laid them out side-by-side
>>>> before starting the staining process. That is when it occurred to
>>>> me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplicates--but
>>>> there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the
>>>> coves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed
>>>> variations because I was looking for them but it is clear that the
>>>> lathe was loaded five times for five legs. Then I looked over at
>>>> the 14" JET lathe near the wall of my shop and shook my head
>>>> wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship were turned on a water or
>>>> foot operated machine.
>>>>
>>>> My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years
>>>> including some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled
>>>> well . We have also finished out our entire home.
>>>>
>>>> We are rank amateurs!
>>>>
>>>> RonB
>>>>
>>>
>>> Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thing
>>> for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to learn
>>> or be taught was more available then as it is today.
>>> Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and
>>> techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in the
>>> hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those
>>> techniques. Think about the great pyramids. ;~)
>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a
>>> testament to accomplishment too.
>>
>> You hit on a very important and unfortunate point Leon. The
>> "opportunity" to learn. I know of a few young ones that would like to
>> take some woodworking classes in junior high or high school. I only
>> know of one that that the opportunity that I had when I was young.
>> For various reasons, liability being the main one, schools have
>> dropped wood classes with no plans to get back in. The old, really
>> old, Unisaw that I used in high school is sitting at the end of the
>> current agriculture shop being use for occasional cutoff work or as a
>> table. The instructor is wood-trained but said the schools don't want
>> to take on the liability of a kid getting injured - football is OK,
>> but not woodworking. She also said the introduction of Saw Stop
>> technology isn't helping because the smaller programs cannot afford to
>> replace perfectly good Unisaws with new machines.
>>
>> Very unfortunate in our area. Pittsburg State University (Kansas) is
>> 35 miles away and they have one of the top woodworking programs in the
>> country. Westhoff Interiors, a leading Yacht interior company, is on
>> the north edge of our town. Westhoff draws some kids into training
>> programs but their best trained come from Pitt State, which in turn
>> pulls students from other areas. Other than the Joplin area there are
>> few local opportunities for wood classes.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>
> It is sad. Our country is becoming soooooo politically correct and
> recklessness letting the lawyers go after any one that might do
> something as simple as teach some one how to strike a match that we are
> loosing the ability to actually think and innovate. Let alone do for
> ourselves.
> The thinking that it would be too expensive to spend $5K to replace a
> new saw is ludicrous. The life long skills that could be taught in a
> wood shop would be thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating
> those that have no other skill and peddle crack on the street corner.
> For some odd reason our mentality is switching over to the idea of
> knowing how to do "ONE" thing that requires no thinking.
> The grocery store cashier from the 70's would look like a genius
> compared to those that take you money these days.
>
>

AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to all!

I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to those
that should not be going to college in the first place.
A free college for all will be no different than adding more years to
high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not want to
be in school in the first place will be there taking up space. I am of
the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't directly pay for
their higher education will get less from it, what do they have to
loose? If you want a lower quality education choose one that is funded
by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality health care system,
choose one funded by the tax payers.

I will get down off of my soap box. ;~)

AND I did not mean to hi-jack your thread, I did appreciate your
thoughts on how much more adapt we as a society were 100 years ago.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

>=20
> Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thing=
=20
> for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to learn=
=20
> or be taught was more available then as it is today.
> Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and=20
> techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in the=
=20
> hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those=20
> techniques. =20
>=20
> On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a=20
> testament to accomplishment too.

Yep. And on a, somewhat, similar note, my niece's son once ask me to make =
a new Harry Potter magic wand.... he had broken his.... with braided-carved=
handle, kinna like gunstock carvings. That carving wasn't so easy a job =
as I had initially thought it would be.

Sonny

On 1/31/2015 12:59 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

>
> What it seems a good many people
> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
> back.

Hmmm, I've read that a few time and do not understand.. Could you give
an example?

On 1/31/2015 4:50 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
> On 1/31/2015 5:35 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> If you speak frankly (or rather if they will speak frankly with you)
>> most college professors will acknowledge that the college degree today
>> is not much more than the high school diploma of decades ago.
>
> No where is this more evident that in chemistry/analytical laboratory
> situations.

Sure. Much less wriggle room in the sciences. Hard to bullshit your
way through the workplace there.

Funny, one my "sources" is #1 daughter, a chemistry prof. She was in AP
courses from 6th grade on. As a junior she wasooking for her undergrad
school she did an overnighter at Knox College - highly rated in the
sciences. Participated in a study group of sophomore chem students that
night. She was feeding them all the answers.

When she went off to undergrad at St Olaf in MN, she basically chilled
the first three semesters before having to get back into the grind.
Finished there with a double major Biology & Chemistry. Then off to the
U of MN and her PhD in Biochemistry.

The kids that she now teaches are good kids but ill-prepared for someone
like her. Would you believe "helicopter parents" in college?

"Look, Julie's grades are slipping. You realize that if she fails your
course, she will be in danger of losing her scholarship?"

Oh well, says my daughter. If Julie doesn't attend class and start
applying herself, she probably will lose the scholarship but it's not
all bad, she won't need it when she flunks out."

Amazing!


> When I graduated I went to work for a company in southern Michigan. We
> hired GOOD high school graduates for the technician positions in the
> lab. By the time I retired, we would not look at a high school graduate.
>
> There were two reasons. One the high school grand could pass the
> standardized test but did not have the knowledge to be trained for the
> technicians positions.
>
> The second reason was that from a Government Regulatory aspect it was
> much easier to convince an regulatory person that the person had the
> proper training if we started with a person with a BS or MS degree, and
> then trained; them rather than saying we started with a high school
> graduate.
>
> Did it make any difference, I have tried to train people that had a
> college "Education" that could not comprehend what they read, at least
> could not translate what they read in the steps necessary to do the job.

My background is law enforcement and I saw and still see, although
retired, the "new breed" coming up with degrees. Amazing what thought
processes some of them have. Fresh out of the academy and they are
wondering why they have to work patrol instead of an immediate promotion
to Lt or department head - "I do have a degree you know!"

The first six months they spend out on the street with a FTO and then
working those same streets on their own is the best education they will
ever get - if they accept it as such. They soon realize that the degree
means little without the street experience and trial by fire. If they
don't learn it, they leave; typically after getting their butt kicked a
couple three times.

On 1/31/2015 9:30 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> [Re: "free" community college]
>
>> Here is what the government is doing, it is finding something for idle
>> hands to do for the next 4 years when they can't find jobs.
>
> DING DING DING! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.
>
>
>

Thank you Doug! :~)

On 1/30/2015 11:59 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects that
>> darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
>> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs the
>> education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new K-16.
>
> Do we really need to put people through 17 years of formal education? Even
> 13 years is too much for some people. What it seems a good many people
> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
> back.
>
> *snip*
>
> Puckdropper
>

This is true, there is the over qualification tag that can hold an over
educated person back. It would be better if the education after HS
focused on physical trade skills to those that are going to actually do
that for a living. Simply put, college is not for every body and if
every one is offered a free college education you are going to see
"sanitation engineers" riding on the back of the garbage truck
collecting your trash every week.

On 1/29/2015 8:42 AM, RonB wrote:
> A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color of an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at least 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the 1950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.
>
> This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the 4th coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am doing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp table saw, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over 30 or 40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.
>
> A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is made of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I wonder if material use was really artistic or just the use of available material in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were edge joined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and slide mechanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of the double-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these parts on the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool marks even after years of use.
>
> Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs. The top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for days gently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I laid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is when it occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplicates--but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the coves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations because I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded five times for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the wall of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship were turned on a water or foot operated machine.
>
> My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years including some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We have also finished out our entire home.
>
> We are rank amateurs!
>
> RonB
>

Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thing
for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to learn
or be taught was more available then as it is today.
Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and
techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in the
hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those
techniques. Think about the great pyramids. ;~)


On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a
testament to accomplishment too.

On 1/31/2015 4:07 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:c-KdnZgJJLl0dVHJnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]:
>
>> On 1/31/2015 12:59 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What it seems a good many people
>>> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
>>> back.
>>
>> Hmmm, I've read that a few time and do not understand.. Could you give
>> an example?
>>
>
> It seems I didn't write it well enough to get my point across. I'll
> rewrite it:
>
> After a point, additional schooling just wastes a person's time.
>
> For the type that work with their hands, it's sometimes better to get out
> of the classroom and in to the shop where they can make mistakes and
> actually engage in learning.

As in, experience is what you get by working and making mistakes because
you don't have the experience<g>

Think "book smart."

It's like a lawyer after passing the bar exam. Long on the tools to do
the job but no experience doing the job.

The doctor who got his degree yesterday is NOT going to be my doctor.
Give him a year or two in residency - hopefully in a busy urban ER or in
his/her clinical specialty and you've got something.

I can't think of a profession or career where OJT doesn't make all the
difference in the finished product.

If you speak frankly (or rather if they will speak frankly with you)
most college professors will acknowledge that the college degree today
is not much more than the high school diploma of decades ago.

An extra two years of schooling in community college? Sure, why not.
Two additional years of child care. Local community college established
(via a very nice person) a fund that would cover ALL tuition for two
years at the local community college. The only criteria was graduation
from a local high school (Not GED or alternative day care <g>) with a, I
think, "C" average.

Nice huh? Help them out, get them working, get away from the sense of
entitlement?

You should have heard the bitching and moaning by a number of ingrates!
"Why the hell should I have to pay for my books and activity fees, etc.?"

On 1/29/2015 7:38 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>>
>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>> all!
>>
>> I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to
>> those that should not be going to college in the first place.
>> A free college for all will be no different than adding more years
>> to high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not
>> want to be in school in the first place will be there taking up
>> space. I am of the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't
>> directly pay for their higher education will get less from it, what
>> do they have to loose? If you want a lower quality education choose
>> one that is funded by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality
>> health care system, choose one funded by the tax payers.
> ------------------------------------------------
> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>
> That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
> describe above.
>
> Lew
>
>
Well that would make a difference.... Whew! But still, I don't think
you could expect anything much better that a HS teacher instructing the
class.

On 1/29/2015 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
> The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be
> thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that have no
> other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reason
> our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE"
> thing that requires no thinking.

You can not suppress an educated independent population

On 1/29/2015 8:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 4:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>> On 1/29/2015 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be
>>> thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that have no
>>> other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reason
>>> our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE"
>>> thing that requires no thinking.
>>
>> You can not suppress an educated independent population
>
> Depends upon who is in charge of the educating and what their agenda is.
>
> This country has had more money thrown at education than ever before in
> human history (Detroit school system a case in point), is more
> suppressed than ever with rights continually under assault by the
> government and militarized police forces, with more folks in jail (many
> corporate, for profit systems), more in poverty, and the majority so
> poorly educated, to the point of barely being qualified to flip burgers,
> that we must rely on visas to fill the spots that require something
> other than a basket weaving curriculum.
>

You forgot to mention the children that wake up in the morning turn on
the tablet, or computer and text all day until the go to bed that night.
Their parents don't notice as they sit around the living room texting
all of the people they are aware, of and ignore the kids.

With this system, we are developing a dysfunctional society with no
skills for physical iterating with the people around them. Kids that
think they are being harassed if you look at them cross eyed, and get
their parent to take person to court for harassing their children.

It is a losing proposition

Keith Nuttle wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 8:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 1/29/2015 4:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2015 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be
>>>> thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that
>>>> have no
>>>> other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reason
>>>> our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE"
>>>> thing that requires no thinking.
>>>
>>> You can not suppress an educated independent population
>>
>> Depends upon who is in charge of the educating and what their agenda is.
>>
>> This country has had more money thrown at education than ever before in
>> human history (Detroit school system a case in point), is more
>> suppressed than ever with rights continually under assault by the
>> government and militarized police forces, with more folks in jail (many
>> corporate, for profit systems), more in poverty, and the majority so
>> poorly educated, to the point of barely being qualified to flip burgers,
>> that we must rely on visas to fill the spots that require something
>> other than a basket weaving curriculum.
>>
>
> You forgot to mention the children that wake up in the morning turn on
> the tablet, or computer and text all day until the go to bed that
> night. Their parents don't notice as they sit around the living room
> texting all of the people they are aware, of and ignore the kids.

The "values" taught by the media (tv, movies, dramas, etc.?)
don't help. How many of them sit around once in a while with a book in
their hand? Get at least get a few to the newsgroup (what's that?)
rec.woodworking where they might gainfully learn to fix a sink! ;)

>
> With this system, we are developing a dysfunctional society with no
> skills for physical iterating with the people around them. Kids that
> think they are being harassed if you look at them cross eyed, and get
> their parent to take person to court for harassing their children.
>
> It is a losing proposition

On 1/30/2015 11:30 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 11:03:28 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 1/29/2015 8:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2015 4:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
>>>> On 1/29/2015 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be
>>>>> thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that have no
>>>>> other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reason
>>>>> our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE"
>>>>> thing that requires no thinking.
>>>>
>>>> You can not suppress an educated independent population
>>>
>>> Depends upon who is in charge of the educating and what their agenda is.
>>>
>>> This country has had more money thrown at education than ever before in
>>> human history (Detroit school system a case in point), is more
>>> suppressed than ever with rights continually under assault by the
>>> government and militarized police forces, with more folks in jail (many
>>> corporate, for profit systems), more in poverty, and the majority so
>>> poorly educated, to the point of barely being qualified to flip burgers,
>>> that we must rely on visas to fill the spots that require something
>>> other than a basket weaving curriculum.
>>>
>>
>> You forgot to mention the children that wake up in the morning turn on
>> the tablet, or computer and text all day until the go to bed that night.
>> Their parents don't notice as they sit around the living room texting
>> all of the people they are aware, of and ignore the kids.
>>
>> With this system, we are developing a dysfunctional society with no
>> skills for physical iterating with the people around them. Kids that
>> think they are being harassed if you look at them cross eyed, and get
>> their parent to take person to court for harassing their children.
>>
>
> I don't consider it a "system", I consider it bad personal choices on the part of the parents.
>
> I've got 2 kids in graduate school, another with a BS degree working in his field of study, and a fourth with a pretty good job considering he decided that college was not for him at this time.
>
> I feel that I played a huge part in their success.
>
> For many years my family was deeply involved in Soap Box Derby racing. 3 of the 4 kids qualified for the World Championship Race in Akron, OH multiple times (7 trips in total). One of them won the World Championship in the top division. One rule I had is that they didn't race if they didn't work on their own cars. Did I expect them to put in as many hours as I did? No, they had other commitments, but I made sure that they were involved in every aspect of the builds especially at the beginning of each new process. They were introduced to metal work, bondo, fiberglass, bondo, weight distribution, bondo, etc. Did I mention bondo? It wasn't just about learning hands-on skills, it was more about teaching them that rewards require hard work and while hard work doesn't guarantee rewards, it greatly increases the possibility.
>
> Yes, they text from sun up to sun down (and in between) but many of those texts are to me. They also know when to put down the phone and concentrate on the tasks at hand.
>
> My point is that we can't blame a "system". There is no rule book for parenting, there are only common sense practices that point your kids down the right path. It's up to the parents.
>
>> It is a losing proposition
>
> I feel like a winner.
>
I agree it is the parents. It starts with the little kid when you bring
him home from the hospital. At that point you start to develop his
moral and social value system. During this time you help him develop his
basic respect for friends, family, neighbors, the police and other
institutions. ie doing unto others what they would have others do unto
them. not coveting the things your neighbor has, there are several other
valid rules to follow.

The problem that I mentioned above is that the parents of these kids
think it is acceptable when people come over to their house to go to the
computer in the back room and only appear periodically. OR to set
around the room with their guest ignoring them and texting to the
worlds. They are setting a great example for the kids with their parent
behavior, see nothing wrong with the same behavior.

PS: I to think I did well with my kids also. Both are college graduates,
and have good jobs. Both have been in stable marriages for nearly 20
years, and while the one can not have children the other is raising to
nice grandsons for me.

knuttle wrote:

> I agree it is the parents. It starts with the little kid when you
> bring him home from the hospital. At that point you start to develop
> his moral and social value system. During this time you help him
> develop his basic respect for friends, family, neighbors, the police
> and other institutions. ie doing unto others what they would have
> others do unto them. not coveting the things your neighbor has, there
> are several other valid rules to follow.
>
> PS: I to think I did well with my kids also. Both are college
> graduates, and have good jobs. Both have been in stable marriages
> for nearly 20 years, and while the one can not have children the
> other is raising to nice grandsons for me.

Echo! Don't feel the need to justify any more than that. Thanks Keith.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

knuttle wrote:

Keith - send me an email.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects that
>> darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
>> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs the
>> education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new K-16.
> Do we really need to put people through 17 years of formal education? Even
> 13 years is too much for some people.

I didn't here the president say he was forcing anyone to go
(please pardon me for not reading all of the preceding messages of this
thread). I'm hope you're not saying that you have figured out a way to
filter out some of those who would like to go.


> What it seems a good many people
> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
> back.
>
> *snip*
>
> Puckdropper

On 1/29/15, 9:05 AM, RonB wrote:

>
> You hit on a very important and unfortunate point Leon. The "opportunity" to learn.

Key point.
My junior HS taught woodworking, had a metal shop where we would do tin
work, lathe work and aluminum casting, small engine shop, building
trades, etc. HS had the auto shop stuff, drafting, and electronics lab
plus many other 'trade' type classes.
These are no more....

-BR


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 1/29/15, 6:38 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>>
>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>> all!
>>
>> I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to
>> those that should not be going to college in the first place.
>> A free college for all will be no different than adding more years
>> to high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not
>> want to be in school in the first place will be there taking up
>> space. I am of the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't
>> directly pay for their higher education will get less from it, what
>> do they have to loose? If you want a lower quality education choose
>> one that is funded by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality
>> health care system, choose one funded by the tax payers.
> ------------------------------------------------
> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.

I also saw a requirement for 50% attendance.

>
> That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
> describe above.
>
> Lew
>
>


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 1/31/2015 5:35 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> If you speak frankly (or rather if they will speak frankly with you)
> most college professors will acknowledge that the college degree today
> is not much more than the high school diploma of decades ago.

No where is this more evident that in chemistry/analytical laboratory
situations.

When I graduated I went to work for a company in southern Michigan. We
hired GOOD high school graduates for the technician positions in the
lab. By the time I retired, we would not look at a high school graduate.

There were two reasons. One the high school grand could pass the
standardized test but did not have the knowledge to be trained for the
technicians positions.

The second reason was that from a Government Regulatory aspect it was
much easier to convince an regulatory person that the person had the
proper training if we started with a person with a BS or MS degree, and
then trained; them rather than saying we started with a high school
graduate.

Did it make any difference, I have tried to train people that had a
college "Education" that could not comprehend what they read, at least
could not translate what they read in the steps necessary to do the job.

Leon wrote:
> On 1/31/2015 12:27 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Puckdropper wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>>> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects
>>>> that
>>>> darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
>>>> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs
>>>> the
>>>> education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new K-16.
>>> Do we really need to put people through 17 years of formal education?
>>> Even
>>> 13 years is too much for some people.
>>
>> I didn't here the president say he was forcing anyone to go
>> (please pardon me for not reading all of the preceding messages of this
>> thread). I'm hope you're not saying that you have figured out a way to
>> filter out some of those who would like to go.
>
> Well I did not listen to him either
FWIW, I DID tune- in to view/listen what he had to say.

> but the notion of making yet another thing free, for the taxpayers to
> pay for, will with a certainty end up as unsuccessful as most any
> thing else the government participates in.
>
> As far as forcing students to go I have a couple of thoughts.
> A. There are millions of HS drop outs so the government does not do a
> good job at keeping kids in school either. The number of students
> that actually attend does not affect the cost to educate them. The
> cost is the same whether there are 15 or 30 students in any particular
> class.
> B. There is a vast number of students that pay for their higher
> education and should not be in college. When college students end up
> not going into the field in which they studied, what good is that
> $60,000 of debt which will take 30 years to pay off with a job paying
> $20,000 a year?
> C. Countless families will continue to support and let their kids
> live at home as long as they are in school. This turns into 4 more
> years of HS quality education that the dead beat kid will attend so
> that he does not have to gout and support himself.
>
>
>
> Again I will say that a free education sounds good but in reality you
> often get what you pay for.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> What it seems a good many people
>>> haven't realized is that after a point formal education holds a person
>>> back.
>>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>> Puckdropper
>>
>

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 06:42:57 -0800 (PST)
RonB <[email protected]> wrote:

> We are rank amateurs!

Not rank amateurs from what you describe just born into a different
era. There are still a lot of craftsmen around the world that do things
manually. There's a guy that turns chess pieces and uses his feet

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:27:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 1/29/2015 2:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/29/2015 10:05 AM, RonB wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 1/29/2015 8:42 AM, RonB wrote:
>>>>> A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color
>>>>> of an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes
>>>>> back at least 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and
>>>>> stained it in the 1950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the
>>>>> 4th coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly
>>>>> well. I am doing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15"
>>>>> surface planer, 5hp table saw, wood lathe and other power and hand
>>>>> tools I have accumulated over 30 or 40 years of woodworking and
>>>>> general tinkering.
>>>>>
>>>>> A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is
>>>>> made of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully
>>>>> combined. I wonder if material use was really artistic or just the
>>>>> use of available material in a small, shop. The red oak top is made
>>>>> of 4" wide boards that were edge joined with a modified tongue and
>>>>> groove edge. The under-frame and slide mechanism, that allows it to
>>>>> be expanded, needed a little work. Some of the double-dovetail
>>>>> slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these parts on the
>>>>> table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool marks
>>>>> even after years of use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs.
>>>>> The top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with
>>>>> decorative rings, etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn
>>>>> design that kept us busy for days gently removing the old finish
>>>>> with toothbrushes. The other morning I laid them out side-by-side
>>>>> before starting the staining process. That is when it occurred to
>>>>> me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplicates--but
>>>>> there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the
>>>>> coves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed
>>>>> variations because I was looking for them but it is clear that the
>>>>> lathe was loaded five times for five legs. Then I looked over at
>>>>> the 14" JET lathe near the wall of my shop and shook my head
>>>>> wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship were turned on a water or
>>>>> foot operated machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years
>>>>> including some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled
>>>>> well . We have also finished out our entire home.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are rank amateurs!
>>>>>
>>>>> RonB
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thing
>>>> for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to learn
>>>> or be taught was more available then as it is today.
>>>> Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and
>>>> techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in the
>>>> hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those
>>>> techniques. Think about the great pyramids. ;~)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a
>>>> testament to accomplishment too.
>>>
>>> You hit on a very important and unfortunate point Leon. The
>>> "opportunity" to learn. I know of a few young ones that would like to
>>> take some woodworking classes in junior high or high school. I only
>>> know of one that that the opportunity that I had when I was young.
>>> For various reasons, liability being the main one, schools have
>>> dropped wood classes with no plans to get back in. The old, really
>>> old, Unisaw that I used in high school is sitting at the end of the
>>> current agriculture shop being use for occasional cutoff work or as a
>>> table. The instructor is wood-trained but said the schools don't want
>>> to take on the liability of a kid getting injured - football is OK,
>>> but not woodworking. She also said the introduction of Saw Stop
>>> technology isn't helping because the smaller programs cannot afford to
>>> replace perfectly good Unisaws with new machines.
>>>
>>> Very unfortunate in our area. Pittsburg State University (Kansas) is
>>> 35 miles away and they have one of the top woodworking programs in the
>>> country. Westhoff Interiors, a leading Yacht interior company, is on
>>> the north edge of our town. Westhoff draws some kids into training
>>> programs but their best trained come from Pitt State, which in turn
>>> pulls students from other areas. Other than the Joplin area there are
>>> few local opportunities for wood classes.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>
>> It is sad. Our country is becoming soooooo politically correct and
>> recklessness letting the lawyers go after any one that might do
>> something as simple as teach some one how to strike a match that we are
>> loosing the ability to actually think and innovate. Let alone do for
>> ourselves.
>> The thinking that it would be too expensive to spend $5K to replace a
>> new saw is ludicrous. The life long skills that could be taught in a
>> wood shop would be thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating
>> those that have no other skill and peddle crack on the street corner.
>> For some odd reason our mentality is switching over to the idea of
>> knowing how to do "ONE" thing that requires no thinking.
>> The grocery store cashier from the 70's would look like a genius
>> compared to those that take you money these days.
>>
>>
>
>AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to all!
>
>I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to those
>that should not be going to college in the first place.
>A free college for all will be no different than adding more years to
>high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not want to
>be in school in the first place will be there taking up space. I am of
>the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't directly pay for
>their higher education will get less from it, what do they have to
>loose? If you want a lower quality education choose one that is funded
>by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality health care system,
>choose one funded by the tax payers.

If you think a college education is expensive now, just wait until
it's free!

Was listening to a talk show about this exact issue yesterday. The
host had gone to Germany to participate in an education seminar. The
German participants, without exception, agreed with you.
>
>I will get down off of my soap box. ;~)
>
>AND I did not mean to hi-jack your thread, I did appreciate your
>thoughts on how much more adapt we as a society were 100 years ago.
>
>
>
>

On 1/31/2015 10:25 AM, Leon wrote:

>
> Over qualified. During periods of economic down turns, like the one
> that we are starting to recover from, there are lay offs and college
> kids graduating. They are all hunting for jobs. Typically when there
> are cut backs/lay offs, those that are the least important to the
> company are let go. Those that immediately find jobs are not over
> qualified. Those that can't find a job, even when people are being
> hired, are over qualified for the jobs they are seeking.
>
> And if you read between the lines, over qualified can also be defined as
> educated well beyond ones intelligence level. If you don't know how to
> apply and sell yourself with what you have been taught you are over
> qualified for the job you are turned down for.
>


We have that situation now. I don't think it would get any worse by
educating people more, given a proper education. By proper, I mean
something usable. I have a PhD in 4th century Greek sculpture and can't
find a job in my field.

My point is, having the opportunity for an education does not lead to
the problem it is what you do with it. Instead of Greek scupture, go
into the medical field where there is a steady demand, or maybe
engineering, or even learn a trade.

There are some professional students that will stay in school as long as
mom and day foot the bill. They have no direction and will be
overqualified if they ever do get kicked out of the house.

The higher education system needs serious overhaul. Tuition is going up
much faster than the cost of living and inflation rates The tuition at
UCONN is up 6% and the president got a 20% raise. Yeah, that makes
sense. Tough getting by on only $750,000 a year.

On 1/31/2015 5:26 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to
>>>> all!
> ------------------------------------------------
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>> It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you
>>>>> describe above.
> -------------------------------------------------
> "Leon" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well that would make a difference.... Whew! But still, I don't
>>>> think you could expect anything much better that a HS teacher
>>>> instructing the class.
> --------------------------------------------------
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> Why is that?
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>> Given how much in debt the government is as a base for comparison,
>> of all the money the tax payers give the government, how much do you
>> suppose will actually go towards an intended purpose.
>>
>> Simply put, the government wastes so much of the money it collects
>> that darn little will actually be spent on the staff.
>> There will be exceptions but simply look at how the government runs
>> the education K-12. Free community college will simply be the new
>> K-16.
>>
>> Private enterprise will always trump the government in production
>> and results. Private enterprises have to run efficiently or they
>> don't exist. This is not true with the government.
>>
>> While private college professors are not all being paid near what
>> the colleges collect for tuition I can assure you that a government
>> paid system is going to pay those professors even less. Where do
>> you think the smart professors are going to work?
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> You're not old enough to remember the GI Bill offered to vets
> returning from WWII.
>
> It was attacked as being a gov't handout; however, in the end it
> turned out to be
> the best investment the gov't ever made.
>
> It developed a generation of trained college graduates, most of them
> were the first
> in the their family to graduate, that drove the last half of the 20th
> century.
>
> The increase in income taxes paid the direct cost of the program and
> the increase
> in an educated work force put us on the moon.
>
> This proposed program is aimed at the community college programs.
>
> Programs that are 2 years aimed at directly providing qualified people
> to staff
> the local market opportunities.
>
> The program is optional. No one is holding a gun to some ones head to
> sign up.
>
> Rather it provides a means to attend a community college and learn a
> skill set
> that is needed in the local area.
>
> It sets the hook to get a degree by requiring that a 2.5 GPA is
> maintained to qualify.
>
> Everybody wins on this one including the skeptics who are convinced
> that gov't
> is a waste.
>
> Yes, the gov't is not the most efficient way of doing some things, but
> the do
> provide the best way some other things.
>
> Things that the private sector either can not or will not provide.
>
> Even Barry Goldwater recognized that gov't provides a unique service
> the
> private sector doesn't provide.
>
> Only took him about 3-4 terms to gain that perspective.
>
> Lew


But with all due respect, that was not a time of entitlement like it is
now and the government was not as out of control as it is now.

On 1/29/2015 4:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>> The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be
>> thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that have no
>> other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reason
>> our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE"
>> thing that requires no thinking.
>
> You can not suppress an educated independent population

Depends upon who is in charge of the educating and what their agenda is.

This country has had more money thrown at education than ever before in
human history (Detroit school system a case in point), is more
suppressed than ever with rights continually under assault by the
government and militarized police forces, with more folks in jail (many
corporate, for profit systems), more in poverty, and the majority so
poorly educated, to the point of barely being qualified to flip burgers,
that we must rely on visas to fill the spots that require something
other than a basket weaving curriculum.

--
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