Sign of the times

Douglas Johnson wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
>>>> in later life?
>
>>> Driver's Ed.
>> Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
>> semester of that crap.
>
> If my Dad had tried to teach me to drive, one of us would have been in the
> hospital, the other in jail. Not that I didn't learn a lot from him, just more
> by example than instruction. Besides, in my state you could get your license
> two years earlier with Driver's Ed. It was also good for an insurance discount
> into my 20's.
>
>
>>> History and Government.
>> What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
>> and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.
>
> A history teacher gave me a love of history. Maybe half my recreational reading
> is history. As for government, understanding of the structure and powers of the
> Federal government is useful almost every day.
>
>
>>> Chemistry and Physics.
>> When have you actually used it?
>
> It lets you call "bullshit" on someone or something that claims to violate basic
> principles.
>
>>> Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.
>> Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
>> proofs to be particularly useful.
>
> I have a patent which has a formal proof as a key component.
>
> -- Doug
This post explains a lot. Chemistry and Physics are the basis for life
in the 21st century. If you don't have a basic understanding of
chemistry you will accept the fact that you can capture all of the CO2
from burning coal. That computer that you are using is based on
physics and math, from it basic operation to the user interface.

As for history, if you don't understand the past you will keep repeating
it with the same results. A good example is the policies of the
thirties. They failed and it took a world war to fix the economy, yet to
day we are getting ready to retry those policies.

If you don't understand government you will accept Biden statement that
the White House should not be involved in the Senate. The Constitution
defines the Vice President's responsibilities as being the Speaker of
the Senate with no voting responsibilities except to break tie votes

It frustrates me to read articles about the lack of education in America
today. Education has been a basic part of the government since 1780.
Every child is required to go to school yet the parents do not encourage
the children to learn. Don't complain about be second class citizens if
you don't make most of the schools and library's that are everywhere in
the United States

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Mike O. wrote:
>
>>
>> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
>> support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
>> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
>> that type of manufacturing.
>>
>> Mike O.
>
> That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that
> late
> to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
> students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
> The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
> that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
> with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
> appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
> in that field.
>

I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is home
ec, the other half is shop.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
> girls! OHMIGAWD!

It still seems like a 95/5 split for the classes that aren't required.

> But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
> basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
> home ec.

The fiscal end is taught in many schools. It's called something like
Consumers Education and teaches you things like balancing checkbooks
(equal weight on both sides?) and how to fill out tax forms. Best thing
about that class was a certain blonde...

> Around here, the woodworking courses in HS were the big thing. They're
> now like Ivory soap, 99 44/100% pure--pure gone, that is, with the
> tools sold, and shop space converted to other uses. There simply are
> far fewer furniture makers around here now. Last week, one of the two
> remaining nearby announced it was laying off 90 of its 130 staff,
> permanently.
>

Shop and band were the two classes I felt were best for my mental state.
They were the only places that were fun on a regular basis.

I've got to wonder how the next generation's going to turn out without
these "unnecessary" classes.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Mike O. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
>>> support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
>>> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
>>> that type of manufacturing.
>>>
>>> Mike O.
>>
>> That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that
>> late
>> to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
>> students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
>> The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
>> that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
>> with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
>> appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
>> in that field.
>>
>
> I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
> introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might be
> basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.
>
> They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
> preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.
>
> Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is home
> ec, the other half is shop.
>

Not a bad idea actually. When I was in high school, it was half a year
of "Single Survival" (the course on basic home economics for guys, but even
then they could no longer call it "Bachelor Survival") and the other half
was Driver's Ed.




> Puckdropper

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Dec 23, 3:38=A0am, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote innews:MfOdnXCpzbDf4M3UnZ2dnU=
[email protected]:
>
>
>
> > Mike O. wrote:
>
> >> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. =A0 With the
> >> support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
> >> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
> >> that type of manufacturing.
>
> >> Mike O.
>
> > =A0 That is a good thing partially. =A0One downside to waiting until th=
at
> > =A0 late
> > to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
> > students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
> > The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
> > that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
> > with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
> > appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
> > in that field.
>
> I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
> introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. =A0This might be
> basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.
>
> They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
> preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.
>
> Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. =A0Half the year is home
> ec, the other half is shop.
>
> Puckdropper

Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
girls! OHMIGAWD!

But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
home ec.

Around here, the woodworking courses in HS were the big thing. They're
now like Ivory soap, 99 44/100% pure--pure gone, that is, with the
tools sold, and shop space converted to other uses. There simply are
far fewer furniture makers around here now. Last week, one of the two
remaining nearby announced it was laying off 90 of its 130 staff,
permanently.

In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Douglas Johnson wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
>>> in later life?
>>
>> Touch typing.
>
>Ok, I admit, that was useful.

"Useful" is IMO something of an understatement. It is a never-ending source of
wonder to me to see how very few computer programmers -- who spend our
freaking *lives* at keyboards -- can touch-type.
>
>> Driver's Ed.
>
>Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
>semester of that crap.

Amen to that.

One thing Dad taught me that they never even mentioned in Driver's Ed: if you
see a ball bounce out into the road, hit the brakes NOW, because there WILL be
a child behind it.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:32:57 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Are the classes that used to be taught in high school shops now being
>taught in community and vocational tech schools?

In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

On Dec 23, 4:25=A0am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Dec 23, 3:38=A0am, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote innews:MfOdnXCpzbDf4M3UnZ2d=
[email protected]:
>
> > > Mike O. wrote:
>
> > >> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. =A0 With the
> > >> support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
> > >> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
> > >> that type of manufacturing.
>
> > >> Mike O.
>
> > > =A0 That is a good thing partially. =A0One downside to waiting until =
that
> > > =A0 late
> > > to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
> > > students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
> > > The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
> > > that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
> > > with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
> > > appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
> > > in that field.
>
> > I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
> > introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. =A0This might b=
e
> > basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.
>
> > They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
> > preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.
>
> > Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. =A0Half the year is ho=
me
> > ec, the other half is shop.
>
> > Puckdropper
>
> Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
> girls! OHMIGAWD!
>
> But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
> basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
> home ec.
>
> Around here, the woodworking courses in HS were the big thing. They're
> now like Ivory soap, 99 44/100% pure--pure gone, that is, with the
> tools sold, and shop space converted to other uses. There simply are
> far fewer furniture makers around here now. Last week, one of the two
> remaining nearby announced it was laying off 90 of its 130 staff,
> permanently.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Chalie, etal,
Jamestown, NY used to be almost all furniture plants, but they've gone
the way of all things. Crawford Furniture is probably the biggest one
left, unless you count Bush Industries(kit furniture) I think Fancher
Chair is still opeating too, but the "giants" that built the city also
stagnated it, and they're all gone now.
Norm

Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:


>
>Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
>girls! OHMIGAWD!
>
>But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
>basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
>home ec.

In 9th grade (ca. 1965), all the shop boys (including me) spent 6 weeks in Home
Ec and the Home Ec girls spent 6 weeks in shop. We all thought it was silly at
the time. Shows what we knew. -- Doug

J. Clarke wrote:

> What did you personally learn in the public schools school other than
> to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
> life?

I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one way
might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the door to
friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I couldn't get across
to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any better than no
idea at all. I learned that language was an essential part of problem
statement and problem solving, and that it could be variously used to
produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or cooperation.

I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry and
precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language to another.

I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned that
there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is the lens
through which we see the world - and that different cultural lenses
reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.

I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my own
culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what might be
good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.

I learned that history was more than names and dates and places - that
it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different groups of
people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has already
been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences over
the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to get things
wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might be really
important to not repeat some of the mistakes.

I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into the
world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to solve a
problem.

I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different elements
have different properties, and that those properties matter - that lead
isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass frames, and that
aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I learned that 'more'
isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of sodium metal into
the waste crock.

I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy and
the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension that must
be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite reactions.
I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad farewell to
fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's more
- a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

J. Clarke wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
>>> than
>>> to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
>>> life?
>> I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one
>> way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
>> door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
>> couldn't
>> get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any
>> better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an essential
>> part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could be
>> variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
>> cooperation.
>
> And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have learned
> them anyway as part of growing up?

A lot of this was put into words for me by teachers before I'd have
worked it out for myself or gotten it from peers.

>> I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
>> perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry
>> and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language
>> to another.
>
> In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
> taught?

Not in the US, although the school program was modeled after New York
State's curriculum. Don't kids in at least some NY and NJ public schools
have the opportunity to learn other languages? I'd be astonished if kids
in south FL, TX, AZ, and NM don't have the opportunity to take Spanish.
The teacher for both languages was Lebanese (and the only non-American
teacher in the school).

>> I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned
>> that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
>> the lens through which we see the world - and that different
>> cultural
>> lenses
>> reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.
>
> That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible American
> public school is located.

The US component of that particular experience was at Richwoods
Community High School in Peoria, IL. It's a good public school with good
teachers and probably had better than average course offerings. I took a
really interesting Projective Geometry and a (really difficult for me)
Qualitative Analysis chemistry course there. Hmm - as I recall, they
also offered French, German, and Spanish to fill in on your earlier
question on languages in public schools.

>> I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my
>> own
>> culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what
>> might
>> be good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.
>
> You discussed? In an American public school?

You bet.

>> I learned that history was more than names and dates and places -
>> that
>> it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different groups
>> of
>> people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has
>> already
>> been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences
>> over the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to get
>> things wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might be
>> really important to not repeat some of the mistakes.
>
> In an American public school you learned this?

An exceptional history teacher, no? IMO, we could use more like him, and
I wish my kids could've taken /any/ course from him.

>> I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
>> before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into
>> the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
>> 'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
>> solve
>> a problem.
>
> Algebra in the sixth grade?

I think so - but sixth grade might've been Plane Geometry with Algebra I
in seventh. It's been a long time.

>> I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different
>> elements
>> have different properties, and that those properties matter - that
>> lead isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass frames,
>> and that aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I learned
>> that 'more' isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of
>> sodium metal into
>> the waste crock.
>
> Always useful, not throwing sodium into the waste crock. In what
> public school in the US did you learn strength of materials?

Didn't - at least not as such, but I do remember talking about "groups"
in the periodic table and discussions about general properties of
elements. I think I'd have enjoyed more specific coursework, but at that
point I probably didn't have enough math to handle it.

>> I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
>> critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
>> nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy
>> and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
>> that must
>> be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
>> reactions.
>> I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
>> farewell
>> to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.
>
> And how have you used that knowledge since?

Wow. It was the foundation for almost all that I learned later - and
gave me the confidence to tackle all kinds of problems about which I
started out knowing far too little. That's exactly what's been happening
with the solar stuff recently - and even randite Tim might get a kick
out of my weird engine that runs (limps actually, but it /will/ run) on
sunshine to do direct conversion of radiant energy to mechanical.

>> I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's
>> more - a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.
>
> It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education from
> most Americans.

I don't know - I think I was just lucky enough to have had a succession
of really good, caring teachers who somehow managed to convince me that
there were real and important connections between what they were
teaching and real life. When the educational process breaks, it's seemed
to me that the lack of that connection has been the fault line.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

J. Clarke wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:

>> Not in the US, although the school program was modeled after New
>> York
>> State's curriculum. Don't kids in at least some NY and NJ public
>> schools have the opportunity to learn other languages? I'd be
>> astonished if kids in south FL, TX, AZ, and NM don't have the
>> opportunity to take Spanish. The teacher for both languages was
>> Lebanese (and the only non-American teacher in the school).
>
> The public schools in Florida, Virginia, Louisiana, and California, at
> least when I was there, offered _no_ languages until high school. The
> Louisiana Catholic parochial schools taught French from first grade
> on, but no Spanish.

That's grim. I don't know about LA, but I'm fairly sure that languages
other than English are now common (or at least not rare) in FL, VA, and CA.

> In high school the Spanish teachers were not native speakers and were
> marginally competent, which, combined with the starting in high
> school, meant that most of the students learned "Queiro ir al cuarto
> de bano" (should be a tilde on that n") and that was the end of it.
>
> New York and New Jersey might be better. They would have had to work
> at it to be much worse.

Yeah - at some point along the way someone decided that it was more
important for teachers to know about theories of education and how to
handle administrivial paperwork than about the subject they were to
teach. The results speak for themselves.

> We sat quietly and regurgitated whatever the teacher told us, no
> matter how stupid it might have been.

I'm sitting here giving thanks that this didn't happen to me because I'd
have been dead meat - I can learn, but I've never been able to memorize
anything.

I was blessed (although it didn't always seem that way at the time) with
teachers who wanted their students to /think/ - who were always asking:
"So where do we go with that?" or "When might that be useful?". I had an
English teacher (not in public school) who regularly walked over in
front of my desk, looked down at me, and smiled broadly just before he'd
ask: "And what does The Dove think of /that/?" I'm sitting here laughing
about it now, but in the beginning it absolutely terrified me. :)

> Well, you begin to see the problem. I don't deny that there must be
> _some_ decent public schools out there, but I never attended any. The
> two good teachers in the ones I attended were constantly battling the
> system.

I /do/ see the problem. Somehow we need to replace indifferent
instructors with _teachers_ who know their subject, the value of its
knowledge, and who see that the future is in the hands of their
students. It's the "somehow" that's the hard part.

> Good that you managed to hit on a field in which you could apply
> _something_. Most people need to know about potics like they need a
> hole in the head.

Hmm. I was a math major who went into computer new product development
(and who only rarely ever used any of the math) :-b

I only tackled the solar technology because (at age 60) I decided it was
important enough and potentially valuable enough to use up my last years
demonstrating its potential.

Think of it as an attempt to be worthy of the efforts of those Good
Teachers, however lame that might seem.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

J. Clarke wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:

>> I don't know about LA, but I'm fairly sure that languages other
>> than English are now common (or at least not rare) in FL, VA, and
>> CA.
>
> But introduced at what level? If they don't start it until high
> school then most students are not going to develop any fluency.

I suspect that about the best that can be hoped for is /preparation/ for
fluency. For most of us, real fluency probably only comes with actual
use of a language. AFAICT, the most effective route to fluency is a
total immersion - and that's difficult to do in a school setting.

>> I /do/ see the problem. Somehow we need to replace indifferent
>> instructors with _teachers_ who know their subject,
>
> And we have to get off the backs of the ones who do. I have a friend
> who has a PhD in education and is a retired teacher. Every time I
> see him he has another horror story passed on to him by one of the
> many teachers with whom he has contact. Idiocy like being
> disciplined for answering a student's question with anything other
> than "look it up" on the basis that they're "supposed to be teaching
> students how to learn" for example. I don't know how widespread that
> sort of thing is--he seems to think it's pretty commonplace.

From what I've heard, it's at least not unusual.

> The
> last teacher I dated was good with the kids and good with dealing
> with the administration, but quite frankly outside of work she was
> NUTS (not going to go into anecdotes) and I suspect that the work had
> done it to her.

> The thing is if I was going to do something worhty of my Good
> Teachers I'd be an author, and in that area, well, I have seen talent
> and it is something that I lack.
>


--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:

> Not in the US, although the school program was modeled after New York
> State's curriculum.

Just for grins, I looked to see if the school is still there (it is).
This online satellite imagery stuff just boggles my mind - there's a
bird's eye view of the school, my home, and the rec center where I spent
a lot of my time at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Misc/AbqaiqSatAn.jpg

And you can get a look at the "moonscape" around the town by going to
Google maps and specifying 'Abqaiq, Saudi Arabia'. Any green you see
outside the town is /not/ vegetation. :)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Mike O. wrote:

> Today we had a small job to do for a local suburban school district.
> The job was to build a desk around three sides of a 14' x14' room. Not
> too difficult but since it was 9 degrees this morning and we had no
> place at the site to work, the school board let us use the former
> industrial arts building (a couple of blocks away) to set up our
> equipment.
> The building brought back 35 year old memories of shop class. This
> was a big old building, I'm guessing 60' x200' with the old dust
> collection system hanging in pieces everywhere. About half the lights
> were on which gave it an eerie haunted feeling. There was a narrow
> balcony with old wood racks now filled with cob webs over about a
> third of the length of the place. Most of the floor space was covered
> with assorted school crap like folding chairs stage risers and about
> anything else that would go in the place. Not many machines left, a
> huge drill press, and old metal lathe, an 18" Rockwell planer, and an
> old green Powermatic table saw with no fence system or motor. A 25'
> finishing bench was still there with the skeletons of exhaust ports
> hanging from the tall ceiling every 4' or so. You could just imagine
> a line of kids standing there sanding on the same shop project.
>
> The sad part about it was that although this was once one hell of a
> shop, there is no longer an industrial arts curriculum at the school
> district. As with many school districts, I guess costs, insurance
> and policies that lean more toward college prep, have rendered the
> building (as well as the classes it once housed) obsolete.
> While I never thought my three fingered shop teacher ever taught me
> much that applied to the real world, I always enjoyed the classes and
> it just seems to me to be something else that kids today will miss out
> on.
> Another sign of the times.......

That's really a shame. I will admit that when I went to High School, I
concentrated mostly upon college prep courses because I knew I wanted to be
an Engineer. However, I did get to take welding and auto shop classes.
When I got to college, I really wished I had the chance to take drafting as
well. That said, college is not for everyone and the shop classes served
as great a function of preparing students for the real world as college
prep classes served to prepare those bound for college. Trying to fit
everyone into the college track mold does no one any favors.

Are the classes that used to be taught in high school shops now being
taught in community and vocational tech schools?




--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Douglas Johnson wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
>>> in later life?

>> Driver's Ed.
>
>Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
>semester of that crap.

If my Dad had tried to teach me to drive, one of us would have been in the
hospital, the other in jail. Not that I didn't learn a lot from him, just more
by example than instruction. Besides, in my state you could get your license
two years earlier with Driver's Ed. It was also good for an insurance discount
into my 20's.


>> History and Government.
>
>What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
>and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.

A history teacher gave me a love of history. Maybe half my recreational reading
is history. As for government, understanding of the structure and powers of the
Federal government is useful almost every day.


>> Chemistry and Physics.
>
>When have you actually used it?

It lets you call "bullshit" on someone or something that claims to violate basic
principles.

>> Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.
>
>Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
>proofs to be particularly useful.

I have a patent which has a formal proof as a key component.

-- Doug

J. Clarke wrote:
> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>>>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real
>>>>> value
>>>>> in later life?
[snip]>
> Sounds to me like you went to an unusual school. The most important
> thing I got out of high school was _me_.
>
You are right. School for you was of no real value.
j4

J. Clarke wrote:
> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
>>> in later life?
>[snip]

It taught me how to characterize a problem and to employ logical thought
processes in formulating a solution.
mahalo,
jo4hn

Mike O. wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:32:57 -0700, Mark & Juanita
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Are the classes that used to be taught in high school shops now being
>>taught in community and vocational tech schools?
>
> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
> support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
> that type of manufacturing.
>
> Mike O.

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time, students are
pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go. The advantage to
teaching at the high school and junior high level is that it gives all
students and opportunity to get some familiarity with equipment and tools.
That can develop into a life-long appreciation for the manual arts, even if
one is not making a living in that field.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

PDQ wrote:
> "Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>>> Morris Dovey wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
>> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.
>>
>> --
>> Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
>> That will alter your social standing
>
> Must be nice to be so young.
>
> My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.
>
> I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could walk inside it.
>
> The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a room for it.
>
> Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.
>
> I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.
>
> P D Q

Reminds me of a Monty Python skit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:39:34 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:

> Puckdropper wrote:
>> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Mike O. wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
>>>> support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
>>>> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related
>>>> to
>>>> that type of manufacturing.
>>>>
>>>> Mike O.
>>>
>>> That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until
>>> that
>>> late
>>> to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
>>> students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to
>>> go.
>>> The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level
>>> is
>>> that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
>>> with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
>>> appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a
>>> living
>>> in that field.
>>>
>>
>> I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
>> introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might
>> be
>> basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.
>>
>> They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety
>> and preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.
>>
>> Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is
>> home ec, the other half is shop.
>
> Beats the Hell out of most of my time in school. What bugs me is that
> people who escape from those torture chambers send their kids right
> back and act like it's a good idea.
>
> --

In most all cases the parents have no choice about sending their kids to
the schools, as the law requires it. They can not even send them to a
trade school instead of regular school. You may call them torture
chambers, but how many would be unable to read to write if they did not
attend the schools. Even now there is many who drop out of school that can
not fill out a job application.

Paul T.

--
The only dumb question, is the one not asked

On Dec 23, 12:55 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

> That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that late
> to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time, students are
> pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go. The advantage to
> teaching at the high school and junior high level is that it gives all
> students and opportunity to get some familiarity with equipment and tools.
> That can develop into a life-long appreciation for the manual arts, even if
> one is not making a living in that field.

I had shop classes all through middle school and the power tools
scared the hell out of me. It wasn't until after college that I
really got going with woodworking. It had more to do with having
access to Dad's tools than anything I got in school. So you never
know.

-Kevin

Puckdropper wrote:
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Mike O. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
>>> support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
>>> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related
>>> to
>>> that type of manufacturing.
>>>
>>> Mike O.
>>
>> That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until
>> that
>> late
>> to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
>> students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to
>> go.
>> The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level
>> is
>> that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
>> with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
>> appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a
>> living
>> in that field.
>>
>
> I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
> introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might
> be
> basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.
>
> They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety
> and preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.
>
> Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is
> home ec, the other half is shop.

Beats the Hell out of most of my time in school. What bugs me is that
people who escape from those torture chambers send their kids right
back and act like it's a good idea.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

> I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
> introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might be
> basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.
>
> They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
> preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.
>
> Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is home
> ec, the other half is shop.
>
> Puckdropper


In jr. high, we had two semesters of shop/home ec. The first semester,
they put the guys in shop and the girls in home ec. The second semester,
it was each student's choice.

Near the end of the first semester, when it was time to sign up for the
next, I walked down the hall and peered into the classrooms of each. One
classroom was filled with cute girls..... the other wasn't. I showed
that disparity to a couple friends, and we all three singed up for home
ec for the next semester. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

PHT wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:39:34 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Puckdropper wrote:
>>> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Mike O. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
>>>>> support of both the community and local business there is a
>>>>> pretty
>>>>> serious effort made toward improving vocational training related
>>>>> to
>>>>> that type of manufacturing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike O.
>>>>
>>>> That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until
>>>> that
>>>> late
>>>> to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
>>>> students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to
>>>> go.
>>>> The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high
>>>> level
>>>> is
>>>> that it gives all students and opportunity to get some
>>>> familiarity
>>>> with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
>>>> appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a
>>>> living
>>>> in that field.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
>>> introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This
>>> might
>>> be
>>> basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.
>>>
>>> They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food
>>> safety
>>> and preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the
>>> like.
>>>
>>> Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is
>>> home ec, the other half is shop.
>>
>> Beats the Hell out of most of my time in school. What bugs me is
>> that people who escape from those torture chambers send their kids
>> right back and act like it's a good idea.
>>
>> --
>
> In most all cases the parents have no choice about sending their
> kids
> to the schools, as the law requires it.

The law requires it but that doesn't mean that the parents have to
like it.

> They can not even send them
> to a trade school instead of regular school.

They have the option of private schools if they can afford them or
home schooling if either parent has the time. If parents didn't like
sending their kids to those miserable schools the law would have been
changed long since.

> You may call them torture
> chambers, but how many would be unable to read to write if they did
> not attend the schools. Even now there is many who drop out of
> school
> that can not fill out a job application.

There are many who finished school who cannot fill out a job
application too.

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre results.
The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't wash. What did
you personally learn in the public schools school other than to read
and write and do sums that was of any real value in later life?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> Even today, I retain
> some of the ability to read mirror images :-).
>

There was a girl in school who could write cursive in mirror image,
almost as quickly as one could write normally.
She would sign all the yearbooks like that. It was funny to see people
in the bathroom, holding their yearbooks up to the mirror in order to
read them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:

> Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
> girls! OHMIGAWD!

> But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
> basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
> home ec.

As long as they actually *teach* some economics and budgeting. I took
a Home Ec course in my high school in 1968 or '69 I think. Their idea
of teaching economics was to play the board game "Life." When I pointed
out that the game *required* me and my partner to purchase a car for
our teenager with a budget that would not really support it, the
instructor didn't seem to care. Sigh.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Douglas Johnson wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
>> in later life?
>
> Touch typing.

Ok, I admit, that was useful.

> Driver's Ed.

Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
semester of that crap.

> Drafting.

Lucky you. I got one mechanical drawing course. Learned vastly more
from my mother's college drafting text.

> History and Government.

What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.

> Wood shop.

Again, lucky you.

> Chemistry and Physics.

When have you actually used it?

> Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.

Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
proofs to be particularly useful. Trig, OK, I'll grant you that one.

> (If you'd like to include those in "sums", that's fine.) -- Doug

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Douglas Johnson wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real
>>>> value
>>>> in later life?
>
>>> Driver's Ed.
>>
>> Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a
>> whole semester of that crap.
>
> If my Dad had tried to teach me to drive, one of us would have been
> in the hospital, the other in jail. Not that I didn't learn a lot
> from him, just more by example than instruction. Besides, in my
> state you could get your license two years earlier with Driver's Ed.
> It was also good for an insurance discount into my 20's.

I don't recall any insurance discount, yes, it let me drive two years
earlier, but that's politics and not skills. Was a waste of time.

>>> History and Government.
>>
>> What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
>> and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.
>
> A history teacher gave me a love of history. Maybe half my
> recreational reading is history. As for government, understanding
> of
> the structure and powers of the Federal government is useful almost
> every day.

Lucky you. The main thing I learned from history teachers was that
history sucks.

As to understanding the structure and powers of the Federal
government, yes, that's useful, but I didn't learn anything about it
in school. I learned a bunch of feel-good bullshit though.

>>> Chemistry and Physics.
>>
>> When have you actually used it?
>
> It lets you call "bullshit" on someone or something that claims to
> violate basic principles.

Calling bullshit based on high school physics and chemistry is a good
way to make a fool of yourself.

>>> Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.
>>
>> Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found
>> mathematical
>> proofs to be particularly useful.
>
> I have a patent which has a formal proof as a key component.

A patent for _what_ and is it making money for you?

Sounds to me like you went to an unusual school. The most important
thing I got out of high school was _me_.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Morris Dovey wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
>> than
>> to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
>> life?
>
> I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one
> way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
> door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
> couldn't
> get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any
> better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an essential
> part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could be
> variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
> cooperation.

And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have learned
them anyway as part of growing up?

> I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
> perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry
> and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language
> to another.

In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
taught?

> I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned
> that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
> the lens through which we see the world - and that different
> cultural
> lenses
> reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.

That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible American
public school is located.

> I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my
> own
> culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what
> might
> be good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.

You discussed? In an American public school?

> I learned that history was more than names and dates and places -
> that
> it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different groups
> of
> people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has
> already
> been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences
> over the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to get
> things wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might be
> really important to not repeat some of the mistakes.

In an American public school you learned this?

> I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
> before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into
> the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
> 'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
> solve
> a problem.

Algebra in the sixth grade?

> I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different
> elements
> have different properties, and that those properties matter - that
> lead isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass frames,
> and that aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I learned
> that 'more' isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of
> sodium metal into
> the waste crock.

Always useful, not throwing sodium into the waste crock. In what
public school in the US did you learn strength of materials?

> I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
> critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
> nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy
> and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
> that must
> be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
> reactions.
> I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
> farewell
> to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

And how have you used that knowledge since?

> I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's
> more - a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.

It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education from
most Americans.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
>> than
>> to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
>> life?
>
> Troll.

They teach trolling in the public schools now?

That explains much.

Seriously, I fully understand kids going postal.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article <[email protected]>
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>Morris Dovey wrote:
>>
>> I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one
>> way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
>> door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
>> couldn't
>> get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any
>> better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an essential
>> part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could be
>> variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
>> cooperation.
>
>And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have learned
>them anyway as part of growing up?

I got a lot of the components of that from teachers, especially the
"how to" part. Depending on context, it goes under various names
-- persuasive writing, debate, etc.


>> I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
>> perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry
>> and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language
>> to another.
>
>In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
>taught?

Dude, French is probably the most taught non-dead foreign language
in US schools. Where *isn't* it taught? I had a year of that in
5th grade, but didn't stick with it. I don't recall if I ever had
Arabic available. But it isn't something that would have interested
me at that time.


>> I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned
>> that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
>> the lens through which we see the world - and that different
>> cultural
>> lenses
>> reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.
>
>That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible American
>public school is located.

It is clear that your schools sucked (assuming that you weren't
just a complete slacker).

My public schools (1967-1980) sound a lot like Morris'.

>> I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
>> before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into
>> the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
>> 'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
>> solve
>> a problem.
>
>Algebra in the sixth grade?

I had the intro, along with geometry by other names in 5th grade.
(Cranston-Calvert School, Newport, RI.)


>> I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
>> critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
>> nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy
>> and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
>> that must
>> be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
>> reactions.
>> I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
>> farewell
>> to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.
>
>And how have you used that knowledge since?

Your original question was in the form, "What did you learn that
you found useful later?"

It's pretty clear that you really meant, "What did you learn that
I also had available to me and that *I* currently consider to be
useful."


BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.

--
Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
That will alter your social standing

"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
> >Morris Dovey wrote:
> >>
<SNIP>=20
>=20
> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.
>=20
> --=20
> Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
> That will alter your social standing

Must be nice to be so young. =20

My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.

I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could walk =
inside it.

The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a room =
for it.

Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.=20

I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.

P D Q

In article <[email protected]>
"PDQ" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >Morris Dovey wrote:
>> >>
><SNIP>
>>
>> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
>> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.
>>
>> --
>> Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
>> That will alter your social standing
>
>Must be nice to be so young.
>
>My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.
>
>I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could walk inside it.
>
>The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a room for it.

Well, that first computer (a HP 2000) I used was also in my senior
year, and I never set eyes on it. It was somewhere across the
county, being shared by all the high schools. I hate to think what
the connection was, probably 300 baud. But we did have CRT terminals
and keyboards. So it's modern compared to a lot of stories I hear.

>Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.

I occasionally reflect on the fact that my 6 year-old cell phone
has more computing power than was used for the Apollo program. Not
entirely sure that says good things about what we do with our current
potential, but that's a long discussion for some other day.

>I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.
>
>P D Q


--
Drew Lawson | I'd like to find your inner child
| and kick its little ass

"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>
> "PDQ" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >"Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>
> >> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
> >> >Morris Dovey wrote:
> >> >>
> ><SNIP>=20
> >>=20
> >> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
> >> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
> >> That will alter your social standing
> >
> >Must be nice to be so young. =20
> >
> >My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.
> >
> >I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could =
walk inside it.
> >
> >The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a =
room for it.
>=20
> Well, that first computer (a HP 2000) I used was also in my senior
> year, and I never set eyes on it. It was somewhere across the
> county, being shared by all the high schools. I hate to think what
> the connection was, probably 300 baud. But we did have CRT terminals
> and keyboards. So it's modern compared to a lot of stories I hear.
>=20

I don't remember the numbers on the computer but it was a burroughs and =
we had to be careful not to trip over the wires. It was the only "room" =
in the building that was air conditioned.

I remember 300 baud as "time out for coffee". Once got into a real =
setto with a know-it-all at work when he said 1600 was blazingly fast =
while I maintained all it did was allow one to "read the periods". In =
those days we had a 6400 line to a branch office in Montreal - didn't =
have to read the periods there.

> >Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.=20
>=20
> I occasionally reflect on the fact that my 6 year-old cell phone
> has more computing power than was used for the Apollo program. Not
> entirely sure that says good things about what we do with our current
> potential, but that's a long discussion for some other day.
>=20
> >I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.
> >
> >P D Q
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Drew Lawson | I'd like to find your inner child
> | and kick its little ass

PDQ wrote:
> "Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>>
> <SNIP>
>>
>> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
>> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.
>>
>> --
>> Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
>> That will alter your social standing
>
> Must be nice to be so young.
>
> My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.
>
> I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could
> walk inside it.
>
> The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a
> room for it.
>
> Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.

Wanna have some fun, google "Hercules". Runs 360 code on a PC faster
than any 360 ever did.

> I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.
>
> P D Q

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

jo4hn wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>>>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>>>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real
>>>>>> value
>>>>>> in later life?
> [snip]>
>> Sounds to me like you went to an unusual school. The most
>> important
>> thing I got out of high school was _me_.
>>
> You are right. School for you was of no real value.

Well, it did teach me to resist boredom.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

jo4hn wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
>>>> results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
>>>> wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
>>>> other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real
>>>> value
>>>> in later life?
>> [snip]
>
> It taught me how to characterize a problem and to employ logical
> thought processes in formulating a solution.

Lucky you. The only kind of "problem" we were required to
"characterize" was "what's going to be on the test".

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>
>>> I learned that language was important - that while a thing said
>>> one
>>> way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
>>> door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
>>> couldn't
>>> get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't
>>> any
>>> better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an
>>> essential
>>> part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could
>>> be
>>> variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
>>> cooperation.
>>
>> And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have
>> learned them anyway as part of growing up?
>
> I got a lot of the components of that from teachers, especially the
> "how to" part. Depending on context, it goes under various names
> -- persuasive writing, debate, etc.

Where was this? Debate? Persuasive writing? Never had any of that
kind of stuff.

>>> I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
>>> perspective twists that my native English does not, and that
>>> poetry
>>> and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one
>>> language
>>> to another.
>>
>> In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
>> taught?
>
> Dude, French is probably the most taught non-dead foreign language
> in US schools. Where *isn't* it taught?

So where is it taught alongside Arabic in the public schools? And if
French is so widely taught in the US public schools howcum the only
school I ever attended in four states that offered it was a Catholic
school?

> I had a year of that in
> 5th grade, but didn't stick with it. I don't recall if I ever had
> Arabic available. But it isn't something that would have interested
> me at that time.
>
>
>>> I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I
>>> learned
>>> that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
>>> the lens through which we see the world - and that different
>>> cultural
>>> lenses
>>> reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and
>>> events.
>>
>> That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible
>> American
>> public school is located.
>
> It is clear that your schools sucked (assuming that you weren't
> just a complete slacker).

Well, yes, they did, and I have seen no reason to believe that they
were atypical.

> My public schools (1967-1980) sound a lot like Morris'.

Where was this?

>>> I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had
>>> come
>>> before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap
>>> into
>>> the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns'
>>> and
>>> 'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
>>> solve
>>> a problem.
>>
>> Algebra in the sixth grade?
>
> I had the intro, along with geometry by other names in 5th grade.
> (Cranston-Calvert School, Newport, RI.)

Perhaps Rhode Island is doing a good job.

>>> I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
>>> critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and
>>> that
>>> nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of
>>> energy
>>> and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
>>> that must
>>> be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
>>> reactions.
>>> I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
>>> farewell
>>> to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.
>>
>> And how have you used that knowledge since?
>
> Your original question was in the form, "What did you learn that
> you found useful later?"
>
> It's pretty clear that you really meant, "What did you learn that
> I also had available to me and that *I* currently consider to be
> useful."
>
>
> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.

One presumes that that has changed since I was in school--at the time
"computer" was something that cost millions of dollars and would have
filled the gym handily.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Morris Dovey wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
>>>> than
>>>> to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
>>>> life?
>>> I learned that language was important - that while a thing said
>>> one
>>> way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
>>> door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
>>> couldn't
>>> get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't
>>> any
>>> better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an
>>> essential
>>> part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could
>>> be
>>> variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
>>> cooperation.
>>
>> And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have
>> learned them anyway as part of growing up?
>
> A lot of this was put into words for me by teachers before I'd have
> worked it out for myself or gotten it from peers.
>
>>> I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
>>> perspective twists that my native English does not, and that
>>> poetry
>>> and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one
>>> language
>>> to another.
>>
>> In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
>> taught?
>
> Not in the US, although the school program was modeled after New
> York
> State's curriculum. Don't kids in at least some NY and NJ public
> schools have the opportunity to learn other languages? I'd be
> astonished if kids in south FL, TX, AZ, and NM don't have the
> opportunity to take Spanish. The teacher for both languages was
> Lebanese (and the only non-American teacher in the school).

The public schools in Florida, Virginia, Louisiana, and California, at
least when I was there, offered _no_ languages until high school. The
Louisiana Catholic parochial schools taught French from first grade
on, but no Spanish. I do wonder sometimes how my life might have been
different if I had been able to stay in the Catholic schools--note
that I am not Catholic.

In high school the Spanish teachers were not native speakers and were
marginally competent, which, combined with the starting in high
school, meant that most of the students learned "Queiro ir al cuarto
de bano" (should be a tilde on that n") and that was the end of it.

New York and New Jersey might be better. They would have had to work
at it to be much worse.

>>> I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I
>>> learned
>>> that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
>>> the lens through which we see the world - and that different
>>> cultural
>>> lenses
>>> reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and
>>> events.
>>
>> That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible
>> American
>> public school is located.
>
> The US component of that particular experience was at Richwoods
> Community High School in Peoria, IL. It's a good public school with
> good teachers and probably had better than average course offerings.
> I took a really interesting Projective Geometry and a (really
> difficult for me) Qualitative Analysis chemistry course there. Hmm -
> as I recall, they also offered French, German, and Spanish to fill
> in
> on your earlier question on languages in public schools.

OK, that is a very, very unusual public school.

>>> I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my
>>> own
>>> culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what
>>> might
>>> be good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.
>>
>> You discussed? In an American public school?
>
> You bet.

We sat quietly and regurgitated whatever the teacher told us, no
matter how stupid it might have been.

>>> I learned that history was more than names and dates and places -
>>> that
>>> it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different
>>> groups
>>> of
>>> people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has
>>> already
>>> been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences
>>> over the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to
>>> get
>>> things wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might
>>> be
>>> really important to not repeat some of the mistakes.
>>
>> In an American public school you learned this?
>
> An exceptional history teacher, no? IMO, we could use more like him,
> and I wish my kids could've taken /any/ course from him.

Well, you begin to see the problem. I don't deny that there must be
_some_ decent public schools out there, but I never attended any. The
two good teachers in the ones I attended were constantly battling the
system.

>>> I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had
>>> come
>>> before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap
>>> into
>>> the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns'
>>> and
>>> 'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
>>> solve
>>> a problem.
>>
>> Algebra in the sixth grade?
>
> I think so - but sixth grade might've been Plane Geometry with
> Algebra I in seventh. It's been a long time.

Geez, we got geometry in the 9th.

>>> I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different
>>> elements
>>> have different properties, and that those properties matter - that
>>> lead isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass
>>> frames,
>>> and that aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I
>>> learned
>>> that 'more' isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of
>>> sodium metal into
>>> the waste crock.
>>
>> Always useful, not throwing sodium into the waste crock. In what
>> public school in the US did you learn strength of materials?
>
> Didn't - at least not as such, but I do remember talking about
> "groups" in the periodic table and discussions about general
> properties of elements. I think I'd have enjoyed more specific
> coursework, but at that point I probably didn't have enough math to
> handle it.

Again quite different. The teacher might have said something about
groups but if she did it was one of those
"memorized-regurgitate-forget" deals. Certainly never explained why
anybody should care about those groups.

>>> I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
>>> critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and
>>> that
>>> nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of
>>> energy
>>> and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
>>> that must
>>> be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
>>> reactions.
>>> I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
>>> farewell
>>> to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.
>>
>> And how have you used that knowledge since?
>
> Wow. It was the foundation for almost all that I learned later - and
> gave me the confidence to tackle all kinds of problems about which I
> started out knowing far too little. That's exactly what's been
> happening with the solar stuff recently - and even randite Tim might
> get a kick out of my weird engine that runs (limps actually, but it
> /will/ run) on sunshine to do direct conversion of radiant energy to
> mechanical.

Good that you managed to hit on a field in which you could apply
_something_. Most people need to know about potics like they need a
hole in the head.

>>> I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's
>>> more - a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.
>>
>> It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education
>> from
>> most Americans.
>
> I don't know - I think I was just lucky enough to have had a
> succession of really good, caring teachers who somehow managed to
> convince me that there were real and important connections between
> what they were teaching and real life.

Which is far, far different from what most of us got.

> When the educational process
> breaks, it's seemed to me that the lack of that connection has been
> the fault line.

Most of the teachers I encountered were career teachers who had never
actually done anything else and housewife wannabees killing time until
they found a victim. The superstars were two ex military who served
in WWII, one as a Marine DI and the other as an AAC instructor pilot.
They both taught you like your life depended on it and knew why you
needed to know what they were teaching. The rest just droned on
regurgitating the book, or some other book, not even recognizing when
they told a whopper.



--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> PDQ wrote:
> > "Drew Lawson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>
> >> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>> Morris Dovey wrote:
> >>>>
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.
>=20
> Wanna have some fun, google "Hercules". Runs 360 code on a PC faster=20
> than any 360 ever did.
>=20

Back when the 50 was new we could get a day's work out of it in 36 =
hours.
Wasn't until I got to use the 65 that I could get a day' work in a day.

Later, in the 70 and 90 series, I could get 3 days work in 4 hours. =
Thank "whomever" for we had a total SNAFU (almost a FUBAR) that took us =
most of a week to recover. Took me 2 days to figure out how much had =
been screwed up (by whom) another day to convince the headshed what =
needed doing to recover and a 4th day implementing the requisite =
changes. Started at 6:00 one evening and by sunup I had managed to =
recover the whole week's throughput.

> > I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.
> >
> > P D Q
>=20
> --=20
> --=20
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>=20
>

In article <[email protected]>
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>Drew Lawson wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>>> Morris Dovey wrote:

>> My public schools (1967-1980) sound a lot like Morris'.
>
>Where was this?

Let's see:
San Leandro, California
Coronado, California
Lemoore, California
Newport, Rhode Island
Springfield, Virginia
Elementary in all, Jr High and High School in the last.

Based on slightly removed observations, the selections are still
similar here in Beavercreek, Ohio (Dayton area). Recent (2-3 years)
feedback from Sterling, Virginia says the same.

Of course, I started school in the heat of the space race when
building the US school system to beat the Russians was a priority.
If I were a decade older, thinks might not have been funded so well.
(In TV terms, I'm the Brady Bunch generation. I get mixed stories
from the Father Knows Best era.)


>> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
>> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.
>
>One presumes that that has changed since I was in school--at the time
>"computer" was something that cost millions of dollars and would have
>filled the gym handily.

I'm thinking that you got taught a thing or three that worked into
whatever your career was, but I don't expect you to agree.


--
Drew Lawson | Radioactive cats have
| 18 half-lives
|

Drew Lawson wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>> Drew Lawson wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>>> My public schools (1967-1980) sound a lot like Morris'.
>>
>> Where was this?
>
> Let's see:
> San Leandro, California
> Coronado, California
> Lemoore, California
> Newport, Rhode Island
> Springfield, Virginia
> Elementary in all, Jr High and High School in the last.
>
> Based on slightly removed observations, the selections are still
> similar here in Beavercreek, Ohio (Dayton area). Recent (2-3 years)
> feedback from Sterling, Virginia says the same.
>
> Of course, I started school in the heat of the space race when
> building the US school system to beat the Russians was a priority.
> If I were a decade older, thinks might not have been funded so well.
> (In TV terms, I'm the Brady Bunch generation. I get mixed stories
> from the Father Knows Best era.)
>
>
>>> BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
>>> still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.
>>
>> One presumes that that has changed since I was in school--at the
>> time
>> "computer" was something that cost millions of dollars and would
>> have
>> filled the gym handily.
>
> I'm thinking that you got taught a thing or three that worked into
> whatever your career was, but I don't expect you to agree.

Not really. Most of what I learned from 6-18 that was engineering
related I learned on my own, which got me in trouble because on tests
I would put down the right answer instead of the regurgitate the
lecture answer.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Morris Dovey wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>>> Not in the US, although the school program was modeled after New
>>> York
>>> State's curriculum. Don't kids in at least some NY and NJ public
>>> schools have the opportunity to learn other languages? I'd be
>>> astonished if kids in south FL, TX, AZ, and NM don't have the
>>> opportunity to take Spanish. The teacher for both languages was
>>> Lebanese (and the only non-American teacher in the school).
>>
>> The public schools in Florida, Virginia, Louisiana, and California,
>> at least when I was there, offered _no_ languages until high
>> school.
>> The Louisiana Catholic parochial schools taught French from first
>> grade on, but no Spanish.
>
> That's grim. I don't know about LA, but I'm fairly sure that
> languages
> other than English are now common (or at least not rare) in FL, VA,
> and CA.

But introduced at what level? If they don't start it until high
school then most students are not going to develop any fluency.

>> In high school the Spanish teachers were not native speakers and
>> were
>> marginally competent, which, combined with the starting in high
>> school, meant that most of the students learned "Queiro ir al
>> cuarto
>> de bano" (should be a tilde on that n") and that was the end of it.
>>
>> New York and New Jersey might be better. They would have had to
>> work
>> at it to be much worse.
>
> Yeah - at some point along the way someone decided that it was more
> important for teachers to know about theories of education and how
> to
> handle administrivial paperwork than about the subject they were to
> teach. The results speak for themselves.

And now they're loaded down with paperwork to satisfy the bureaucrats
besides.

>> We sat quietly and regurgitated whatever the teacher told us, no
>> matter how stupid it might have been.
>
> I'm sitting here giving thanks that this didn't happen to me because
> I'd have been dead meat - I can learn, but I've never been able to
> memorize anything.
>
> I was blessed (although it didn't always seem that way at the time)
> with teachers who wanted their students to /think/ - who were always
> asking: "So where do we go with that?" or "When might that be
> useful?". I had an English teacher (not in public school) who
> regularly walked over in
> front of my desk, looked down at me, and smiled broadly just before
> he'd ask: "And what does The Dove think of /that/?" I'm sitting here
> laughing about it now, but in the beginning it absolutely terrified
> me. :)
>
>> Well, you begin to see the problem. I don't deny that there must
>> be
>> _some_ decent public schools out there, but I never attended any.
>> The two good teachers in the ones I attended were constantly
>> battling the system.
>
> I /do/ see the problem. Somehow we need to replace indifferent
> instructors with _teachers_ who know their subject,

And we have to get off the backs of the ones who do. I have a friend
who has a PhD in education and is a retired teacher. Every time I see
him he has another horror story passed on to him by one of the many
teachers with whom he has contact. Idiocy like being disciplined for
answering a student's question with anything other than "look it up"
on the basis that they're "supposed to be teaching studends how to
learn" for example. I don't know how widespread that sort of thing
is--he seems to think it's pretty commonplace. The last teacher I
dated was good with the kids and good with dealing with the
administration, but quite frankly outside of work she was NUTS (not
going to go into anecdotes) and I suspect that the work had done it to
her.

> the value of its
> knowledge, and who see that the future is in the hands of their
> students. It's the "somehow" that's the hard part.
>
>> Good that you managed to hit on a field in which you could apply
>> _something_. Most people need to know about potics like they need
>> a
>> hole in the head.
>
> Hmm. I was a math major who went into computer new product
> development
> (and who only rarely ever used any of the math) :-b
>
> I only tackled the solar technology because (at age 60) I decided it
> was important enough and potentially valuable enough to use up my
> last years demonstrating its potential.
>
> Think of it as an attempt to be worthy of the efforts of those Good
> Teachers, however lame that might seem.

Good thought. The thing is if I was going to do something worhty of
my Good Teachers I'd be an author, and in that area, well, I have seen
talent and it is something that I lack.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:

> What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
> than
> to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
> life?

Troll.

Lew

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:10:49 -0600, Mike O. wrote:
>
> While I never thought my three fingered shop teacher ever taught me
> much that applied to the real world, I always enjoyed the classes and
> it just seems to me to be something else that kids today will miss out
> on.

I took metal shop, woodworking shop, and print shop. Even today, I retain
some of the ability to read mirror images :-).

In WW, I was all thumbs. Thank goodness I haven't retained that :-).

And all I can remember about metal shop was heating the
(non-electric) soldering irons in a little oven.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre results.
>The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't wash. What did
>you personally learn in the public schools school other than to read
>and write and do sums that was of any real value in later life?

Touch typing. Driver's Ed. Drafting. History and Government. Wood shop.
Chemistry and Physics. Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus. (If you'd like
to include those in "sums", that's fine.) -- Doug

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Chemistry and Physics.
>
> When have you actually used it?

Electricity; magnetism; optics; basic kinetics; surface tension of polar
fluids; combustion products; oxidation and reduction reactions; acids and
bases; metallurgy of tool steels...

>
>> Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.
>
> Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
> proofs to be particularly useful. Trig, OK, I'll grant you that one.

These are all fundamentals, the role of primary and secondary education,
useful of themselves and necessary foundations for the other basic sciences
of fluid and thermodynamics, statics, ... Not a day goes by that my
technical education isn't put to use. Anytime a number is involved, even
telling the time, I'm drawing on knowledge grounded in my early education.
Y'all also overlooked basic grammar and language, formal logic, foreign
language, art appreciation, towel flicking, ... which led to, among other
things, persuasive and other forms of writing.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:29:14 -0600, Morris Dovey wrote:

>> It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education from
>> most Americans.
>
> I don't know - I think I was just lucky enough to have had a succession
> of really good, caring teachers who somehow managed to convince me that
> there were real and important connections between what they were
> teaching and real life. When the educational process breaks, it's seemed
> to me that the lack of that connection has been the fault line.

Sounds a lot like the teachers in my day, Morris. Oh, there were some
bad ones, but most of mine were dedicated to teaching me things which I
greatly resisted. My only complaint was that there were no classes for
children with high (or low) intelligence, although the good teachers did
pretty well at reaching both.

And yes, we discussed things as well. Especially in history and social
studies classes, but also in English classes.



--
It's turtles, all the way down

"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> It taught me how to characterize a problem and to employ logical thought
> processes in formulating a solution.
> mahalo,
> jo4hn

Old fashioned. Nobody does that any more.