Cyclone-style Dust Collectors.

mac davis <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:47:02 -0700, Mark & Juanita
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> In the Decibel scale, a 3 dB reduction equates to a reduction by
>> 1/2. dB
>>scale is logarithmic. Depending upon whether one is converting from
>>power or not, the conversion from linear scale to logarithmic scale is
>>either dB = 10 * log10(P) or dB = 20 * log10(A).
>
> That first line is the comforting part, after that, it's all Greek
> (geek?) to me..
> thanks!
>
> Feliz Navidad
>
>
>
>
> mac
>
> Please remove splinters before emailing

That's normal. Most Physics formulas include greek letters. :-)

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On 22 Dec, 22:06, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?
>
> r

I still haven't found out how to send a live link, but-http://
www.studio1304.com/silca/cyclone/index.htm
HTH

MikeWhy wrote:
> Subjectively, the small'ish DC and air cleaner work adequately most of
> the time, with the ROS being the sole exception. A hole in the wall
> likely won't help the ROS.


A Shop Vac, drywall bag, and $20 auto switch can do wonders for a ROS.

If you're really paranoid, you can add a Cleanstream HEPA filter to
catch what escapes the drywall bag.

[...snip...]
>
> In the Decibel scale, a 3 dB reduction equates to a reduction by 1/2. dB
>scale is logarithmic. Depending upon whether one is converting from power
>or not, the conversion from linear scale to logarithmic scale is either
>dB = 10 * log10(P) or dB = 20 * log10(A).

But in human perception terms, according to audio textbooks I have, a
3 db increase is generally perceived as just noticeable, and a 10 db
increase is perceived as twice as loud.

>> Jim

This guy has been selling a version for a few years
now. The pictures show a typical setup similar to your
needs:


http://cgi.ebay.com/Cyclone-Separator-for-Dust-Collector_W0QQitemZ280294896934QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280294896934&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

What machine is creating that much dust in an hour ?

Robatoy wrote:
> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?
>
> r

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:47:02 -0700, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:


> In the Decibel scale, a 3 dB reduction equates to a reduction by 1/2. dB
>scale is logarithmic. Depending upon whether one is converting from power
>or not, the conversion from linear scale to logarithmic scale is either
>dB = 10 * log10(P) or dB = 20 * log10(A).

That first line is the comforting part, after that, it's all Greek (geek?) to
me..
thanks!

Feliz Navidad




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Dec 23, 7:44=A0pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> PDQ wrote:
>
> > As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think join=
ter or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as a lot o=
f that still gets to the filters.
>
> That's why John said "properly designed".
>
> My JDS has had over 200 gallons of junk sucked in over the last three
> months, with less than 2 gallons in the filter bag.
>
> I use a decent amount of MDF and plywood, and own a 22" drum sander, so
> I get plenty of "fine" dust. =A0It's really obvious just by looking in th=
e
> drum how much fine dust the drum catches.

I know you know your dB's. JDS claims 78 dB. Is that even close?

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Robatoy wrote:
> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?
>
> r

For a quick and dirty cyclone substitute for the lowest-dollar, take a
look at a reasonable substitute.

http://dreamingofhawaii.com/workshop/cyclone.asp

It uses an existing dust extractor and provides much of the cyclone
action without the cost.
Still gotta empty the barrel, but the filter bag never got much in it
after the barrel was hooked up...

--Rick

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<h2>Building a cyclone from a 55-gallon drum.</h2>
Not everyone needs to have a full size, commercially produced cyclone to effectively separate the chips from the fine dust in their workshop.
After looking at the comercially produced cyclones, and plans for building one that looked like the commercially produced units,
I thought I'd try to build one in a much simpler manner.
<br><br>
This page shows an inexpensive cyclone I built from a 55 gallon drum (that was originally used to temporarily store Guava Juice).
<br><br>
The total out of pocket cost of this project, including the flexible hose was under twenty dollars. Your cost may vary depending upon what you already have on hand, and the price of supplies in your area.
<br><br>
<h3>My cost breakdown </h3>(costs in parenthesis were items already on hand):
<ul>
<li>The Drum with removable lid was $10 at a garage sale. If the top for your drum is already gone, you can substitute a plywood disk of appropriate size. A clamp to hold the top on isn't normally needed.
<li>I had 3 feet of 4" PVC pipe left over from plumbing the dust extraction system ($2)
<li>I also had a large tube of Caulking compound ($3). Siliconized white compound works for me.
<li>New Metal Cutting Blade for the Sawzall cost $3 (because I only had wood ones on hand!)
<li>Two 10-32 x 1/2 inch long screws, with washers, nuts and fender washers ($1)
<li>3 feet of flexible hose (all metal aluminum dryer vent hose) ($4)
<li>Beer ($5)
</ul>
<h3>Tools Required:</h3>
<ul>
<li>Electric Drill
<li>Sawzall, jigsaw, or other portable reciprocating saw.
<li>Caulking Gun
</ul>

<b>Note: Click on any image to see a full size view in another window</b>
<br>
<A HREF="images/55gal-system.jpg" target="big"><IMG SRC="images/55gal-system.gif" width=64 height=48>The system</A>
<br>
This is the 55 gallon cyclone connected to the dust extractor. The pipe running up the wall goes overhead and on to
various tools such as saws, planer and lathes.
<br><br>
<A HREF="images/55gal-top.jpg" target="big"><IMG SRC="images/55gal-top.gif" width=64 height=48>Top View</A>
<br>
This is a little closer view of the top of the unit. Note that the inlet is at a rather shallow angle, and the outlet (to the dust extractor)
is the vertical pipe in the center.
<br><br>
<A HREF="images/55gal-under1.jpg" target="big"><IMG SRC="images/55gal-under1.gif" width=64 height=48>Underside of Lid, first view.</A>

<br><br>
<A HREF="images/55gal-under2.jpg" target="big"><IMG SRC="images/55gal-under2.gif" width=64 height=48>Underside of Lid, at a slightly different angle.</A>
<br><br>
<h3>Instructions:</h3>
<ol>
<li>Cut two sections of PVC pipe about 18" long each.
<br><br>
<li>Place one in the center of the lid and draw around it to mark the hole to cut for the exhaust.
<br><br>
<li>Mark the slot that will be cut out for the inlet tube. This slot will be like a grossly elongated D.
<br><br>
If you have difficulty in visualizing the shape of this hole, just submerge one of the tubes
in a pan of water at the angle you wish to use, and note the shape along the waterline. Draw this
shape on the drum top, near the edge. You want to leave plenty of metal at the edge so you don't
significantly reduce the strength of the top. Mark a line about two inches inside the straight part of the D.
<br><br>
<li>Drill a couple of holes near your marked line in each of the holes you need to cut out.
This is so you can get the blade of the Sawzall (or jigsaw) though the metal to begin your cut. If you don't have
some sort of portable reciprocating saw, I imagine you could drill holes all around the cut line and file or
grind the edges, but I wouldn't want to think about how long this approach might take.
<br><br>
<li>Cut out the disc of metal at the Exhaust location. It really helps if you space the top from the floor
on a couple of blocks, unless you want to buy more Sawzall blades. A fairly tight fit is good here, because
the Exhaust tube is attached only by caulking...
<br><br>
<li>Cut out the D-shaped hunk of metal at the Inlet location. At the lowest point, where the tube will be
inside the lid (corresponding to the flat part of the D shape) I cut the end of the scrap off, but left a tab
about two inches long with a saw cut on each side. I enlarged the saw cuts so the tubing would fit over the tab.
<br><br>
The cuts don't need to be really exact. Any minor misadventures in guiding your saw can be hidden under caulking later.
Try the fit of the tubes and cut another slice of metal as needed for a reasonable fit.
<br><br>
<li>Now that the hard and/or dangerous work is done, pop open a beer and take a break. People that don't like beer
can subsitute any adult beverage of their choice.
<br><br>
<li>Bend the end of the tab of the inlet hole to a curve that will fit the inside of the tube, then drill and
bolt the tube in place. While probably not necessary, this provides additional support for the inlet tube.
<br><br>
<li>Block the top up about four to six inches from the table or floor, and push the Exhaust tube through so one end
rests on the table or floor. It should now look more or less like the pictures above.
<br><br>
<li> After locating the caulking gun, (why is it never where it's supposed to be?) load it up and caulk around the tubes
on the upper side of the top. Note that the only thing holding the Exhaust tube in place is the caulking,
so you will have to wait for the caulking to set up before you invert the top and caulk the underside.
<br><br>
<li>Finish your beverage or have another one. All you can do now is wait for the caulking to dry.
<br><br>
<li>After the caulking on the top is dry, invert the top and caulk the underside. When this is dry, you can
plumb your new 55 gallon cyclone into the system.
</ol>

After living with this system for awhile, I've found I can get additional suction (for longer runs of pipe) by removing
the bag from my dust extractor (DE). The cyclone works well enough that there isn't any noticeable dust from the unit
when running my planer, but I'd imagine that fine dust from sanding would require the filter bag. Typically, with the DE
filter bag on, I get less than a half inch of dust in the bottom bag by the time the 55 gallon drum is nearly full. Note that
as the drum gets within six inches or so of the top, you'll start sucking chips out of the exhaust and into the DE.
<br><br>
--Rick
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Robatoy wrote:

> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?

About six years ago I daisy-chained two 55 gallon barrels with Lee
Valley clear separator tops to a HF dust collector. This setup is
dedicated to my ShopBot. I normally empty a barrel when it's somewhere
between 1/2 to 2/3 full.

The first barrel traps nearly all of the course/medium stuff and some of
the fine dust. The second has trapped everything not trapped by the
first barrel.

The bag on the dust collector has never needed emptying.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

In article <[email protected]>,
Jim Weisgram <[email protected]> wrote:

> But in human perception terms, according to audio textbooks I have, a
> 3 db increase is generally perceived as just noticeable,

Correct. I recall this being demonstrated to me many years ago as a
trainee with the BBC. It is just noticeable on a steady tone but almost
never on "program"

> and a 10 db increase is perceived as twice as loud.

Noticeably louder certainly but whether twice as loud depends on
individual perception.

--
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

You don't understand. The drum is a pre-dump of big stuff
so the smaller stuff continues and doesn't get swamped with
everything the shop can give it.

Martin

J. Clarke wrote:
> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> One way is to use a 55 gallon drum. The lid has two portals.
>> Inlet
>> and outlet. The outlet goes to the bag system. Between the two you
>> bolt on or weld - a fence that extends 4-5 times the diameter of the
>> hose.
>> So the inlet is pulled in and dumps into the can. Lighter stuff
>> continues on the way to the filter.
>>
>> Have two barrels and one lid - never run out of room.
>>
>> Naturally a nice one outside on the edge of the building that can
>> dump into a truck or large bag in the truck would be nice and best.
>
> What you have described is a poorly designed inefficient cyclone.
>
> If you're DIYing and all ready have a good sized dust colletor, it
> doesn't cost all that much to beat together a real cyclone.
>
>> Martin
>>
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
>>> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
>>> to do something.
>>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>>> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>>
>>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
>>> those things?
>>>
>>> r
>

On Dec 23, 9:52=A0am, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> This guy has been selling a version for a few years
> now. The pictures show a typical setup similar to your
> needs:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Cyclone-Separator-for-Dust-Collector_W0QQitemZ280...6=
6%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
>
> What machine is creating that much dust in an hour ?

V-grooving 3/4" MDF or PB with a CNC.
>
> Robatoy wrote:
> > The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> > Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
> > do something.
> > I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
> > all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> > So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> > those things?
>
> > r

On Dec 23, 9:52=A0am, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> This guy has been selling a version for a few years
> now. The pictures show a typical setup similar to your
> needs:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Cyclone-Separator-for-Dust-Collector_W0QQitemZ280...6=
6%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
>
> What machine is creating that much dust in an hour ?
>
> Robatoy wrote:
> > The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> > Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
> > do something.
> > I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
> > all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> > So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> > those things?
>
> > r

Now that one piqued my interest. Especially 2 in series. Thank you,
Pat.

-MIKE- wrote:
>> It reminds me of firing up a large system with only the subs running.
>> You could talk, but there was an extremely annoying rumbling
>> distraction in the background.
>>
>
>
> And then you have to change your Depends.
>
>


You might! <G>

One of the systems I used on a regular basis had a full boat of Servo
Drives...

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:43:57 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> However, you set your cyclone up, vent it outside the building into a
>> suitable enclosure (I made mine to look like an outhouse). This way,
>> you get rid of the dust, which is the whole purpose.
>
>You also get rid of any warm air in the shop right quick.

For sure...

What isn't fair is that in summer, it doesn't seem to vent much heat..
Then again, we all know that life isn't fair..


Feliz Navidad




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

PDQ wrote:
>
> As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as a lot of that still gets to the filters.
>

That's why John said "properly designed".

My JDS has had over 200 gallons of junk sucked in over the last three
months, with less than 2 gallons in the filter bag.

I use a decent amount of MDF and plywood, and own a 22" drum sander, so
I get plenty of "fine" dust. It's really obvious just by looking in the
drum how much fine dust the drum catches.

B A R R Y wrote:
> Pat Barber wrote:
>
>> Not to appear too dumb...but what is a drywall bag
>> and where do I get one ?
>
>
> A drywall bag is simply a disposable filter bag, fine enough to contain
> drywall dust. I buy them in the Shop Vac (generic term...) section,
> wherever Shop Vac accessories, like filters and hoses, are sold.
>
> I find that the bag provides a steadier suction for longer than a HEPA
> filter by itself. My HEPA filters seem to clog quite readily with
> sanding junk. The bags also make the job of emptying the vacuum much
> cleaner, but they aren't all that cheap. Since the main use of my
> vacuum is with handheld sanders, I don't worry too much about the extra
> cost. The bags last me a long time.

Have you tried a "CleanStream" filter. They too are initially expensive
but I've been running the same one in my Sears shop vac for about 6 years.

http://www.cleanstream.com/filters_wetdry.html

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

I do have a couple of the Cleanstream and they
are nice.

I just thought these drywall bags might
make things easier.

I also use my shop vac for most sanding operations
but that fine dust is hell on even the Cleanstream.

Dumping those shop vacs can be a VERY nasty operation.

Maybe Craftsman makes a similar bag.



Nova wrote:

>> I find that the bag provides a steadier suction for longer than a HEPA
>> filter by itself. My HEPA filters seem to clog quite readily with
>> sanding junk. The bags also make the job of emptying the vacuum much
>> cleaner, but they aren't all that cheap. Since the main use of my
>> vacuum is with handheld sanders, I don't worry too much about the
>> extra cost. The bags last me a long time.
>
> Have you tried a "CleanStream" filter. They too are initially expensive
> but I've been running the same one in my Sears shop vac for about 6 years.
>
> http://www.cleanstream.com/filters_wetdry.html
>

Han wrote:

> mac davis <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:53:34 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Dec 23, 7:44 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> PDQ wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think
>>>> > jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine
>>>> > stuff as a lot of that still gets to the filters.
>>>>
>>>> That's why John said "properly designed".
>>>>
>>>> My JDS has had over 200 gallons of junk sucked in over the last
>>>> three months, with less than 2 gallons in the filter bag.
>>>>
>>>> I use a decent amount of MDF and plywood, and own a 22" drum sander,
>>>> so I get plenty of "fine" dust.  It's really obvious just by looking
>>>> in the drum how much fine dust the drum catches.
>>>
>>>I know you know your dB's. JDS claims 78 dB. Is that even close?
>>
>> I had a real interesting discussion here about "sound suppressors" a
>> few years ago, don't know if you remember it..
>> I was trying to figure out how the DC muffler from Penn State could
>> lower the DB's 7 to 10 db's for "up to a 50% reduction"..
>> Sounded like snake oil to me, so I asked here and got lots of answers
>> that used math to explain it and were beyond my understanding..
>> Then, someone (Dr. Deb?) said that they had one and it lowered it
>> nicely..
>>
>> I bought one and was really amazed at the difference... Cheap "2 hp"
>> DC from Harbor Freight, went from shouting to someone next to you to
>> talking in an almost normal tone..
>>
>> Got explained to me later in terms that I could understand.. Something
>> about taking even a few DB off the top lowers the "annoying" level
>> quite a bit.. Anyway, works for me and I'd never run a DC without one
>> now.. YMWV
>>
>>
>> mac
>>
>> Please remove splinters before emailing
>>
> Hey mac!
>
> The scale for dB is logarithmic - I think that each increase of 1 means
> 10 times more, just as the Richter scale for earthquakes. Better look at
> wikipedia for more info. How come you need a reduction of 7 to 10 dB for
> 50% reduction is not immediately clear, unless we have to go back to the
> Bel decibel is 1/10 of a Bel). Then 10 dB=1 B, or a factor 2. But maybe
> I need more coffee, and then advice from DIL, who teaches physics in a
> high school.
>

In the Decibel scale, a 3 dB reduction equates to a reduction by 1/2. dB
scale is logarithmic. Depending upon whether one is converting from power
or not, the conversion from linear scale to logarithmic scale is either
dB = 10 * log10(P) or dB = 20 * log10(A).


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

J. Clarke wrote:
>
> Neat. I gotta do something like that at some point.

Even a slightly over-sized plastic can slit down the side should work.

The bag makes a HUGE difference.

Nova wrote:
>
> Have you tried a "CleanStream" filter. They too are initially expensive
> but I've been running the same one in my Sears shop vac for about 6 years.

I have.

It still clogs.

The beauty of the drywall bag is that the dust cake seems to fall off in
between uses. I like the Cleanstream as a main filter, but the bag is
a great pre-filter.

J. Clarke wrote:
> The reason I put one in in the first place was MDF. End up with a
> main collector full of MDF dust, the little one under the filters
> hardly sees anything.

I get so much MDF dust in the drum, I created a shop made bag holder to
install plastic bags. Dumping the drum was gross.

The bag holder is simply a garbage can that fits inside the drum, with
the bottom cut out. I install the bag, put in the can, and work... At
dump time, I pull out the can, close the bag, and repeat.

Robatoy wrote
>
> I know you know your dB's. JDS claims 78 dB. Is that even close?

I'd say so.

I don't have a meter anymore, so I can't measure it. @ 10 feet, it's
comparable to my DC1200, at a much lower pitch. The main note on the
3100ck is down in the 100Hz area. The ductwork makes more noise than it
did before, as the blast gates whistle a bit.

If JDS "A" weighted the measurement, it's EASILY 78, as all of the noise
from the actual unit is low frequency. You can actually talk over it.

It reminds me of firing up a large system with only the subs running.
You could talk, but there was an extremely annoying rumbling distraction
in the background.

Pat Barber wrote:
> Not to appear too dumb...but what is a drywall bag
> and where do I get one ?
>

They're disposable filter bags designed for picking up drywall dust.
I've only seen them available for the "Shop-Vac" and the Porter Cable vacs.


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Pat Barber wrote:
> I noticed that Sears offers a "foam" sleeve that
> fits over the regular filter.
>
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00997443000P?mv=rr
>
> Have you tried that ?

Got that, too! <G>

Shavings stick to it.

For sander dust collection, nuttin' works as well as the bags.

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> One way is to use a 55 gallon drum. The lid has two portals. Inlet and
> outlet. The outlet goes to the bag system. Between the two you bolt on
> or weld - a fence that extends 4-5 times the diameter of the hose.
> So the inlet is pulled in and dumps into the can. Lighter stuff continues
> on the way to the filter.

I had that, it's like comparing my single engine C182 to a Gulfstream.
Without the can, it was my Beech 23, compared to my C182.

A real cyclone works so much better than a preseperator that it's not
funny. The extra drum on a bag DC eats CFM, so the suction is much reduced.

Not to appear too dumb...but what is a drywall bag
and where do I get one ?

B A R R Y wrote:
> MikeWhy wrote:
>> Subjectively, the small'ish DC and air cleaner work adequately most of
>> the time, with the ROS being the sole exception. A hole in the wall
>> likely won't help the ROS.
>
>
> A Shop Vac, drywall bag, and $20 auto switch can do wonders for a ROS.
>
> If you're really paranoid, you can add a Cleanstream HEPA filter to
> catch what escapes the drywall bag.
>
>

Pat Barber wrote:
> I noticed that Sears offers a "foam" sleeve that
> fits over the regular filter.
>
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00997443000P?mv=rr
>
> Have you tried that ?
>

I haven't tried the foam filter but I have cut off one of the legs of a
pair of my wife's old panty hose and stretched it over the filter. It
helps and it didn't cost anything.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

mac davis <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:53:34 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 23, 7:44 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> PDQ wrote:
>>>
>>> > As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think
>>> > jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine
>>> > stuff as a lot of that still gets to the filters.
>>>
>>> That's why John said "properly designed".
>>>
>>> My JDS has had over 200 gallons of junk sucked in over the last
>>> three months, with less than 2 gallons in the filter bag.
>>>
>>> I use a decent amount of MDF and plywood, and own a 22" drum sander,
>>> so I get plenty of "fine" dust.  It's really obvious just by looking
>>> in the drum how much fine dust the drum catches.
>>
>>I know you know your dB's. JDS claims 78 dB. Is that even close?
>
> I had a real interesting discussion here about "sound suppressors" a
> few years ago, don't know if you remember it..
> I was trying to figure out how the DC muffler from Penn State could
> lower the DB's 7 to 10 db's for "up to a 50% reduction"..
> Sounded like snake oil to me, so I asked here and got lots of answers
> that used math to explain it and were beyond my understanding..
> Then, someone (Dr. Deb?) said that they had one and it lowered it
> nicely..
>
> I bought one and was really amazed at the difference... Cheap "2 hp"
> DC from Harbor Freight, went from shouting to someone next to you to
> talking in an almost normal tone..
>
> Got explained to me later in terms that I could understand.. Something
> about taking even a few DB off the top lowers the "annoying" level
> quite a bit.. Anyway, works for me and I'd never run a DC without one
> now.. YMWV
>
>
> mac
>
> Please remove splinters before emailing
>
Hey mac!

The scale for dB is logarithmic - I think that each increase of 1 means
10 times more, just as the Richter scale for earthquakes. Better look at
wikipedia for more info. How come you need a reduction of 7 to 10 dB for
50% reduction is not immediately clear, unless we have to go back to the
Bel decibel is 1/10 of a Bel). Then 10 dB=1 B, or a factor 2. But maybe
I need more coffee, and then advice from DIL, who teaches physics in a
high school.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

One way is to use a 55 gallon drum. The lid has two portals. Inlet and
outlet. The outlet goes to the bag system. Between the two you bolt on
or weld - a fence that extends 4-5 times the diameter of the hose.
So the inlet is pulled in and dumps into the can. Lighter stuff continues
on the way to the filter.

Have two barrels and one lid - never run out of room.

Naturally a nice one outside on the edge of the building that can dump into
a truck or large bag in the truck would be nice and best.

Martin

Robatoy wrote:
> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?
>
> r

Nova wrote:

> B A R R Y wrote:
>
>> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>>
>>> B A R R Y wrote:
>>>
>>>> mac davis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Weather permitting, I sand stuff like that outside..
>>>>> I find myself working more and more in the carport, using the "Baja
>>>>> Breeze" handle the dust..
>>>>
>>>> The "Connecticut Breeze" is a tad less accommodating this time of year.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's what we are hearing. How many inches of global warming have
>>> you
>>> got so far? Or has it missed you and only hit the midwest?
>>>
>>
>>
>> ~ 14 last weekend!
>>
>> I live about 30 minutes from the shore, @ 100 ft/MSL, so that's a huge
>> storm.
>
> 14" last Friday, 23.5" on Sunday.
>

Saw a dusting of frost on the lawn (green) this morning. I don't envy you
all in the least.



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Nova wrote:
>
> 14" last Friday, 23.5" on Sunday.

Mere flurries, for you! <G>

B A R R Y wrote:

> mac davis wrote:
>>
>> Weather permitting, I sand stuff like that outside..
>> I find myself working more and more in the carport, using the "Baja
>> Breeze" handle the dust..
>
> The "Connecticut Breeze" is a tad less accommodating this time of year.

That's what we are hearing. How many inches of global warming have you
got so far? Or has it missed you and only hit the midwest?

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Dec 22, 11:10=A0pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:gipk820e5n@news=
2.newsguy.com...
> > PDQ wrote:
> > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]...
> > >> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> > >> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
> > >> to do something.
> > >> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
> > >> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> > >> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> > >> those things?
>
> > >> r
>
> > > 1. =A0Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement.
> > > The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either stop
> > > collecting or get a bigger container.
>
> > The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a container, you
> > don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I
> > understand correctly was the issue.
>
> > With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the
> > filters.
>
> Yep. =A0Still say time between dumps is a function of collector size. =A0=
I have a friend who has a 40 foot tall collector painted to look like a bee=
r can. =A0He does not empty it very often but, when he does, we have a real=
ly big bonfire.
>
> As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think jointe=
r or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as a lot of =
that still gets to the filters.
>
My understanding, is that the whole point of a cyclone is to virtually
eliminate ANYthing getting to the filters.
My router doesn't produce a lot of pounds of crap, but so much of it
is fluffy filter-clogging crap. I didn't mean to emphasize the total
quantity of the crap, just that a lot of it is MDF and acrylic
fluffiness. Even the flappers on my canister is rendered useless after
a 1 hour cutting routine.

On Dec 29, 2:42=A0pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
> Pat Barber wrote:
> > Not to appear too dumb...but what is a drywall bag
> > and where do I get one ?
>
> They're disposable filter bags designed for picking up drywall dust.
> I've only seen them available for the "Shop-Vac" and the Porter Cable vac=
s.
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]

The Festool and Fein vacs have them too.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:06:38 -0500, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
>Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
>do something.
>I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
>all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
>So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
>those things?
>
>r

Just a bit of personal experience and my basic cheapness:

I built a "cyclone" system 5 or 6 years ago out of a fiber 50 gallon drum and
it's fantastic..

The drum was free
I made a plywood lid for the drum (good excuse to build a quick & dirty circle
jig for the router)
Cut two 4" holes in the lid, one in the center and one near an edge..
Put a straight DC hose connecter in the middle hole,
A DC elbow in the hole on the edge.. (should say the one closer to the rim, I
guess)

I connected the hose from the tools to the elbow and the DC hose to the middle
hole.. Middle hole works a little better if you have a bit of lift straight up
before directing it to the DC...

All I get in the DC lower bag now is fine dust.. All the heavier stuff
accumulates in the barrel..
I used to have to empty the bag every month.....
Now, I empty the barrel frequently, which is easier and a lot less mess, and
haven't had to empty the DC bag more than once a year or so... YMWV

That said, I use the DC for the lathe and band saw, so different tools would
have different results..
I use to use the separator/cyclone on the router table and saw and it worked
fine, but the really messy stuff is outside now and the DC isn't connected to
them..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Dec 29, 3:34 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> Pat Barber wrote:
> > Not to appear too dumb...but what is a drywall bag
> > and where do I get one ?
>
> A drywall bag is simply a disposable filter bag, fine enough to contain
> drywall dust. I buy them in the Shop Vac (generic term...) section,
> wherever Shop Vac accessories, like filters and hoses, are sold.
>
> I find that the bag provides a steadier suction for longer than a HEPA
> filter by itself. My HEPA filters seem to clog quite readily with
> sanding junk. The bags also make the job of emptying the vacuum much
> cleaner, but they aren't all that cheap. Since the main use of my
> vacuum is with handheld sanders, I don't worry too much about the extra
> cost. The bags last me a long time.

If you're going through a lot of bags, a mini cyclone would save you
money in the long run.

-Kevin

Robatoy wrote:
>
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?

Three months ago, I put in a JDS 3100ck.

I wish I went to a cyclone years ago. Easy to empty, fantastic
performance, and a canister filter from the get go. I've emptied ~ 200
gallons of material from the drum and I'm still on the original bag
under the filter. This unit has a filter beater that runs on a timer
each time the DC is shut down. It seems to work very well.

Without my ceiling height limitation, you can probably get a similar
performing unit for a few hundred bucks less than my unit, as there is
lots of competition.

On Dec 22, 11:27 pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:a780fd50-f1e2-4e87-b3e7-d78c3d9e1d72@f24g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
>
> On Dec 22, 11:10 pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
> > > PDQ wrote:
> > > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > >news:[email protected]...
> > > >> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> > > >> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
> > > >> to do something.
> > > >> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
> > > >> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> > > >> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> > > >> those things?
>
> > > >> r
>
> > > > 1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement.
> > > > The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either stop
> > > > collecting or get a bigger container.
>
> > > The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a container, you
> > > don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I
> > > understand correctly was the issue.
>
> > > With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the
> > > filters.
>
> > Yep. Still say time between dumps is a function of collector size. I have a friend who has a 40 foot tall collector painted to look like a beer can. He does not empty it very often but, when he does, we have a really big bonfire.
>
> > As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as a lot of that still gets to the filters.
>
> My understanding, is that the whole point of a cyclone is to virtually
> eliminate ANYthing getting to the filters.
> My router doesn't produce a lot of pounds of crap, but so much of it
> is fluffy filter-clogging crap. I didn't mean to emphasize the total
> quantity of the crap, just that a lot of it is MDF and acrylic
> fluffiness. Even the flappers on my canister is rendered useless after
> a 1 hour cutting routine.
>
> The theory of the cyclone is like a cream separator, the heavy stuff
> falls to the bottom and the light stuff keeps on going (like that rabbit).
> All you get is a little more fun before the dump.
>
> Probably will not make much of an impact on the MDF and acrylic.
> I would suggest a hepa filter for that stuff. Not good to suck it down
> the wind pipe.

Don't confuse the "cyclone lids" with a real cyclone separator. I
have only a vacuum setup, with the mini cyclone from
clearvuecyclones. Before I was using a lid from Lee Valley. There's
at least an order of magnitude difference between the two as far as
getting the fines. Hooked up to my drum sander the lid may as well
have not been there. Maybe a couple hours and the filter would be
fully caked. With the cyclone I can go a month or more without even
thinking about the filter, and even then I'm cleaning it long before
it even gets to that fully caked point. I probably won't clean it all
winter, cuz it's freaking cold outside and I don't have to. And there
is NOTHING in the bottom of the vacuum, unless I let the cyclone
overflow. And you can literally let it fill up completely to the top
before anything comes out.

If you haven't used one you really don't understand just how effective
they are. I think if Rob Lee tested that thing he'd stop selling the
lids and start selling the real thing.

-Kevin

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Andrew Barss wrote:
>> J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Care to point out the inaccuracies?
>>
>> It's filled with hyperbole, it claims no commercial DC
>> company is worth their salt (he has a particular
>> dislike of Oneida), he claims he's spent a hundred
>> thousand dollars on putting up his website and requests donations,
>> he recommends homebuilt systems that are over powered, and he
>> exaggerates the efficacy of the system he advocates and the dangers
>> of small amounts of dust.
>>
>> It may just be me, but the site has a cultish, conpiracy theory
>> feel.
>
> I don't see any specifics there, your assertions are very vague.

I share his vague disquiet. The entire site is very dust-phobic, bordering
on obsessive and paranoid. It's difficult to say more without quantifying
air quality in your own shop. I think about buying a good airborn
particulate counter from time to time. OTOH, the only purpose that would
serve is to verify whether or not I need to punch a hole through the masonry
to vent to the outside, with the attendant problems. Subjectively, the
small'ish DC and air cleaner work adequately most of the time, with the ROS
being the sole exception. A hole in the wall likely won't help the ROS.

Dr. Deb wrote:
>
> However, you set your cyclone up, vent it outside the building into a
> suitable enclosure (I made mine to look like an outhouse). This way, you
> get rid of the dust, which is the whole purpose.

How did you provide make-up air back into the building?

I'd like to do this myself, but haven't seen a method that I like for my
application.

Robatoy wrote:
> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
> to
> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
> set-up,
> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/Index.cfm

Just about anything you want to know is there.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.=20
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to =

> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up, =

> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>=20
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about=20
> those things?
>=20
> r

1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement. The =
only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either stop =
collecting or get a bigger container.

2. Lee Valley =
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3D1&p=3D30282&cat=3D1,42401&ap=3D=
1
has a really good write-up on the theory of a cyclone collector. Their =
catalogue has a lot of accessories to really make it sing.

3. As theory goes, the cyclone approach really works. In practice, it =
is only as good as the collection system you hook up to it.

P D Q

PDQ wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
>> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
>> to do something.
>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>
>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
>> those things?
>>
>> r
>
> 1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement.
> The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either stop
> collecting or get a bigger container.

The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a container, you
don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I
understand correctly was the issue.

With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the
filters.

>
> 2. Lee Valley
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=30282&cat=1,42401&ap=1
> has a really good write-up on the theory of a cyclone collector.
> Their catalogue has a lot of accessories to really make it sing.
>
> 3. As theory goes, the cyclone approach really works. In practice,
> it is only as good as the collection system you hook up to it.

I see very little in the way of fines settling out regardless of
whether the machine I'm using is connected to the cyclone.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> PDQ wrote:
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> >> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
> >> to do something.
> >> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
> >> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
> >>
> >> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> >> those things?
> >>
> >> r
> >
> > 1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement.
> > The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either stop
> > collecting or get a bigger container.
>=20
> The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a container, you=20
> don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I=20
> understand correctly was the issue.
>=20
> With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the=20
> filters.

Yep. Still say time between dumps is a function of collector size. I =
have a friend who has a 40 foot tall collector painted to look like a =
beer can. He does not empty it very often but, when he does, we have a =
really big bonfire.

As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think =
jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as =
a lot of that still gets to the filters.

>=20
> >
> > 2. Lee Valley
> > =
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3D1&p=3D30282&cat=3D1,42401&ap=3D=
1
> > has a really good write-up on the theory of a cyclone collector.
> > Their catalogue has a lot of accessories to really make it sing.
> >
> > 3. As theory goes, the cyclone approach really works. In practice,
> > it is only as good as the collection system you hook up to it.
>=20
> I see very little in the way of fines settling out regardless of=20
> whether the machine I'm using is connected to the cyclone.
>=20
> --=20
> --=20
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>=20
>=20

P D Q

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:a780fd50-f1e2-4e87-b3e7-d78c3d9e1d72@f24g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...=

On Dec 22, 11:10 pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in =
messagenews:[email protected]...
> > PDQ wrote:
> > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]...
> > >> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just =
overwhelmed.
> > >> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really =
need
> > >> to do something.
> > >> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
> > >> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> > >> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know =
about
> > >> those things?
>
> > >> r
>
> > > 1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement.
> > > The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either =
stop
> > > collecting or get a bigger container.
>
> > The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a container, =
you
> > don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I
> > understand correctly was the issue.
>
> > With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the
> > filters.
>
> Yep. Still say time between dumps is a function of collector size. I =
have a friend who has a 40 foot tall collector painted to look like a =
beer can. He does not empty it very often but, when he does, we have a =
really big bonfire.
>
> As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think =
jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as =
a lot of that still gets to the filters.
>
My understanding, is that the whole point of a cyclone is to virtually
eliminate ANYthing getting to the filters.
My router doesn't produce a lot of pounds of crap, but so much of it
is fluffy filter-clogging crap. I didn't mean to emphasize the total
quantity of the crap, just that a lot of it is MDF and acrylic
fluffiness. Even the flappers on my canister is rendered useless after
a 1 hour cutting routine.

The theory of the cyclone is like a cream separator, the heavy stuff =
falls to the bottom and the light stuff keeps on going (like that =
rabbit). All you get is a little more fun before the dump.

Probably will not make much of an impact on the MDF and acrylic. I =
would suggest a hepa filter for that stuff. Not good to suck it down =
the wind pipe.

P D Q

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> One way is to use a 55 gallon drum. The lid has two portals.
> Inlet
> and outlet. The outlet goes to the bag system. Between the two you
> bolt on or weld - a fence that extends 4-5 times the diameter of the
> hose.
> So the inlet is pulled in and dumps into the can. Lighter stuff
> continues on the way to the filter.
>
> Have two barrels and one lid - never run out of room.
>
> Naturally a nice one outside on the edge of the building that can
> dump into a truck or large bag in the truck would be nice and best.

What you have described is a poorly designed inefficient cyclone.

If you're DIYing and all ready have a good sized dust colletor, it
doesn't cost all that much to beat together a real cyclone.

> Martin
>
> Robatoy wrote:
>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
>> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
>> to do something.
>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>
>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
>> those things?
>>
>> r

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.=20
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to =

> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up, =

> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>=20
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about=20
> those things?
>=20
> r

If a DIY interests you http://www.studio1304.com/silca/cyclone/index.htm
offers a nice version.

A practical plan for same is at =
http://www.billpentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/CyclonePlan.cfm

Other odds and sods may be gleaned from these sites as well.

Enjoy

P D Q

What you say about the "garbage can" variety is right. Only a serious =
collector is in the 98 % territory. A back yard guy can get by quite =
nicely with or without one of the can lids.

P D Q


<[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> On Dec 22, 11:27 pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in =
messagenews:[email protected]=
.com...
> >
> > On Dec 22, 11:10 pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in =
messagenews:[email protected]...
> > > > PDQ wrote:
> > > > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > =
>news:[email protected]...
> > > > >> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just =
overwhelmed.
> > > > >> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I =
really need
> > > > >> to do something.
> > > > >> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 =
HP
> > > > >> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between =
dumping.
> >
> > > > >> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know =
about
> > > > >> those things?
> >
> > > > >> r
> >
> > > > > 1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you =
implement.
> > > > > The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to =
either stop
> > > > > collecting or get a bigger container.
> >
> > > > The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a =
container, you
> > > > don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I
> > > > understand correctly was the issue.
> >
> > > > With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the
> > > > filters.
> >
> > > Yep. Still say time between dumps is a function of collector size. =
I have a friend who has a 40 foot tall collector painted to look like a =
beer can. He does not empty it very often but, when he does, we have a =
really big bonfire.
> >
> > > As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think =
jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as =
a lot of that still gets to the filters.
> >
> > My understanding, is that the whole point of a cyclone is to =
virtually
> > eliminate ANYthing getting to the filters.
> > My router doesn't produce a lot of pounds of crap, but so much of it
> > is fluffy filter-clogging crap. I didn't mean to emphasize the total
> > quantity of the crap, just that a lot of it is MDF and acrylic
> > fluffiness. Even the flappers on my canister is rendered useless =
after
> > a 1 hour cutting routine.
> >
> > The theory of the cyclone is like a cream separator, the heavy stuff
> > falls to the bottom and the light stuff keeps on going (like that =
rabbit).
> > All you get is a little more fun before the dump.
> >
> > Probably will not make much of an impact on the MDF and acrylic.
> > I would suggest a hepa filter for that stuff. Not good to suck it =
down
> > the wind pipe.
>=20
> Don't confuse the "cyclone lids" with a real cyclone separator. I
> have only a vacuum setup, with the mini cyclone from
> clearvuecyclones. Before I was using a lid from Lee Valley. There's
> at least an order of magnitude difference between the two as far as
> getting the fines. Hooked up to my drum sander the lid may as well
> have not been there. Maybe a couple hours and the filter would be
> fully caked. With the cyclone I can go a month or more without even
> thinking about the filter, and even then I'm cleaning it long before
> it even gets to that fully caked point. I probably won't clean it all
> winter, cuz it's freaking cold outside and I don't have to. And there
> is NOTHING in the bottom of the vacuum, unless I let the cyclone
> overflow. And you can literally let it fill up completely to the top
> before anything comes out.
>=20
> If you haven't used one you really don't understand just how effective
> they are. I think if Rob Lee tested that thing he'd stop selling the
> lids and start selling the real thing.
>=20
> -Kevin

PDQ wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:a780fd50-f1e2-4e87-b3e7-d78c3d9e1d72@f24g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 22, 11:10 pm, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> messagenews:[email protected]...
>>> PDQ wrote:
>>>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just
>>>>> overwhelmed. Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1
>>>>> hour.... I really need to do something.
>>>>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>>>>> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>
>>>>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know
>>>>> about those things?
>>
>>>>> r
>>
>>>> 1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement.
>>>> The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either
>>>> stop collecting or get a bigger container.
>>
>>> The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a container,
>>> you don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I
>>> understand correctly was the issue.
>>
>>> With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the
>>> filters.
>>
>> Yep. Still say time between dumps is a function of collector size.
>> I
>> have a friend who has a 40 foot tall collector painted to look like
>> a beer can. He does not empty it very often but, when he does, we
>> have a really big bonfire.
>>
>> As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think
>> jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine
>> stuff
>> as a lot of that still gets to the filters.
>>
> My understanding, is that the whole point of a cyclone is to
> virtually
> eliminate ANYthing getting to the filters.
> My router doesn't produce a lot of pounds of crap, but so much of it
> is fluffy filter-clogging crap. I didn't mean to emphasize the total
> quantity of the crap, just that a lot of it is MDF and acrylic
> fluffiness. Even the flappers on my canister is rendered useless
> after
> a 1 hour cutting routine.
>
> The theory of the cyclone is like a cream separator, the heavy stuff
> falls to the bottom and the light stuff keeps on going (like that
> rabbit). All you get is a little more fun before the dump.

It's a centrifugal separator. In this case "the light stuff" is air
molecules and "the heavy stuff" is everything else.

> Probably will not make much of an impact on the MDF and acrylic. I
> would suggest a hepa filter for that stuff. Not good to suck it
> down
> the wind pipe.

A good properly desigend cyclone has a HEPA filter with a tenth the
pore size of the ones that you use on ordinary dust collectors.

The reason I put one in in the first place was MDF. End up with a
main collector full of MDF dust, the little one under the filters
hardly sees anything.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

PDQ wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> PDQ wrote:
>>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just
>>>> overwhelmed.
>>>> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really
>>>> need
>>>> to do something.
>>>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>>>> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>>>
>>>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know
>>>> about
>>>> those things?
>>>>
>>>> r
>>>
>>> 1. Does not matter what version of dust collection you implement.
>>> The only way to lengthen the time between dumpings is to either
>>> stop
>>> collecting or get a bigger container.
>>
>> The difference is that with a cyclone you just empty a container,
>> you
>> don't have to beat dust off of the clogged filters, which if I
>> understand correctly was the issue.
>>
>> With a properly designed cyclone very, very little gets to the
>> filters.
>
> Yep. Still say time between dumps is a function of collector size.
> I have a friend who has a 40 foot tall collector painted to look
> like
> a beer can. He does not empty it very often but, when he does, we
> have a really big bonfire.
>
> As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think
> jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff
> as a lot of that still gets to the filters.

You can have the pacific ocean for a collector but if the filters clog
in an hour that doesn't do you any good.

If "a lot of that" is getting to the filters it's a crappy cyclone.

>>> 2. Lee Valley
>>> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=30282&cat=1,42401&ap=1
>>> has a really good write-up on the theory of a cyclone collector.
>>> Their catalogue has a lot of accessories to really make it sing.
>>>
>>> 3. As theory goes, the cyclone approach really works. In
>>> practice,
>>> it is only as good as the collection system you hook up to it.
>>
>> I see very little in the way of fines settling out regardless of
>> whether the machine I'm using is connected to the cyclone.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>>
>>
>
> P D Q

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Pat Barber wrote:
> This guy has been selling a version for a few years
> now. The pictures show a typical setup similar to your
> needs:
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Cyclone-Separator-for-Dust-Collector_W0QQitemZ280294896934QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280294896934&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

Wish I'd seen that when I was building mine. I'd have saved some time
and money.

> What machine is creating that much dust in an hour ?
>
> Robatoy wrote:
>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
>> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
>> to do something.
>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>
>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
>> those things?
>>
>> r

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

> It reminds me of firing up a large system with only the subs running.
> You could talk, but there was an extremely annoying rumbling distraction
> in the background.
>


And then you have to change your Depends.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

B A R R Y wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> The reason I put one in in the first place was MDF. End up with a
>> main collector full of MDF dust, the little one under the filters
>> hardly sees anything.
>
> I get so much MDF dust in the drum, I created a shop made bag holder
> to install plastic bags. Dumping the drum was gross.
>
> The bag holder is simply a garbage can that fits inside the drum,
> with
> the bottom cut out. I install the bag, put in the can, and work...
> At dump time, I pull out the can, close the bag, and repeat.

Neat. I gotta do something like that at some point. The drum on mine
is small, since the whole thing has to fit under a 7 foot ceiling, so
it's not that big a deal to take it outside to dump, but it's still
gross with MDF. With the Argentinian hardwoods that I used to be able
to get from CWG though it was a treat--still a lot of dust but it
smelled _incredible_.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Dr. Deb wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
>> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
>> to do something.
>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>> set-up, all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>
>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
>> those things?
>>
>> r
>
>
> However, you set your cyclone up, vent it outside the building into
> a
> suitable enclosure (I made mine to look like an outhouse). This
> way,
> you get rid of the dust, which is the whole purpose.

You also get rid of any warm air in the shop right quick.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
: Robatoy wrote:
:> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
:> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need
:> to
:> do something.
:> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
:> set-up,
:> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
:>
:> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
:> those things?

: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/Index.cfm

: Just about anything you want to know is there.

Some of it is useful and accurate, some of it is neither.

One should also consult reviews on cyclones from FWW, Popular Woodworking,
and other major magazines. And the engineers at Oneida give free advice
and very useful help in designing and planning a system.

-- Andy Barss

Andrew Barss wrote:
> J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just
>>> overwhelmed.
>>> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really
>>> need
>>> to
>>> do something.
>>> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP
>>> set-up,
>>> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>>>
>>> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know
>>> about
>>> those things?
>
>> http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/Index.cfm
>
>> Just about anything you want to know is there.
>
> Some of it is useful and accurate, some of it is neither.

Care to point out the inaccuracies?

> One should also consult reviews on cyclones from FWW, Popular
> Woodworking, and other major magazines. And the engineers at Oneida
> give free advice and very useful help in designing and planning a
> system.
>
> -- Andy Barss

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:

: Care to point out the inaccuracies?

It's filled with hyperbole, it claims no commercial DC
company is worth their salt (he has a particular
dislike of Oneida), he claims he's spent a hundred
thousand dollars on putting up his website and requests donations,
he recommends homebuilt systems that are over powered, and he
exaggerates the efficacy of the system he advocates and the dangers
of small amounts of dust.

It may just be me, but the site has a cultish, conpiracy theory
feel.

However, it does contain some useful information.
I just think a person should look elsewhere as well.

-- Andy Barss

Andrew Barss wrote:
> J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Care to point out the inaccuracies?
>
> It's filled with hyperbole, it claims no commercial DC
> company is worth their salt (he has a particular
> dislike of Oneida), he claims he's spent a hundred
> thousand dollars on putting up his website and requests donations,
> he recommends homebuilt systems that are over powered, and he
> exaggerates the efficacy of the system he advocates and the dangers
> of small amounts of dust.
>
> It may just be me, but the site has a cultish, conpiracy theory
> feel.

I don't see any specifics there, your assertions are very vague.

> However, it does contain some useful information.
> I just think a person should look elsewhere as well.
>
> -- Andy Barss

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Pat Barber wrote:
> I noticed that Sears offers a "foam" sleeve that
> fits over the regular filter.
>
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00997443000P?mv=rr
>

I think that's for wet vac'ing.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Pat Barber wrote:
> Not to appear too dumb...but what is a drywall bag
> and where do I get one ?

A drywall bag is simply a disposable filter bag, fine enough to contain
drywall dust. I buy them in the Shop Vac (generic term...) section,
wherever Shop Vac accessories, like filters and hoses, are sold.

I find that the bag provides a steadier suction for longer than a HEPA
filter by itself. My HEPA filters seem to clog quite readily with
sanding junk. The bags also make the job of emptying the vacuum much
cleaner, but they aren't all that cheap. Since the main use of my
vacuum is with handheld sanders, I don't worry too much about the extra
cost. The bags last me a long time.

Robatoy wrote:

> The pleated-paper canister filter on my 2HP DC is just overwhelmed.
> Better than the old bag. A bag is good for 1 hour.... I really need to
> do something.
> I figure that if I were to upgrade to a double canister 3-4 HP set-up,
> all it would do would buy a little time between dumping.
>
> So, I'm told that a cyclone is the way to go. What do we know about
> those things?
>
> r


However, you set your cyclone up, vent it outside the building into a
suitable enclosure (I made mine to look like an outhouse). This way, you
get rid of the dust, which is the whole purpose.

Deb

mac davis wrote:
> Right now, a long sleeve shirt is all I need to work outside, but during the
> summer it's just too hot/humid to work outside..
> Forecast this morning was for a warming trend, maybe up to 70...
> After 2 years here, we've acclimated a bit though and 70 with a strong breeze is
> kind of cold..


Nice!

>
> From what I've heard, your spring is spectacular, though..


Fall, too!

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> MikeWhy wrote:
>> Subjectively, the small'ish DC and air cleaner work adequately most of
>> the time, with the ROS being the sole exception. A hole in the wall
>> likely won't help the ROS.
>
>
> A Shop Vac, drywall bag, and $20 auto switch can do wonders for a ROS.
>
> If you're really paranoid, you can add a Cleanstream HEPA filter to catch
> what escapes the drywall bag.

<nods> Yup. I use it so seldom, mostly on plywood only, and then only
rarely. I haven't bothered getting the 1" adapter to fit on the sander. Hand
sanding with 220 suffices, but that has a different dust problem. Solid wood
gets planed or scraped. (So, it's fair to say I stopped using it for lack of
a $2 vac adapter. I hate the whine of that shop vac, too.)

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:07:03 -0500, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:

>mac davis wrote:
>>
>> Weather permitting, I sand stuff like that outside..
>> I find myself working more and more in the carport, using the "Baja Breeze"
>> handle the dust..
>
>The "Connecticut Breeze" is a tad less accommodating this time of year.

Yep.. local makes a huge difference..
Right now, a long sleeve shirt is all I need to work outside, but during the
summer it's just too hot/humid to work outside..
Forecast this morning was for a warming trend, maybe up to 70...
After 2 years here, we've acclimated a bit though and 70 with a strong breeze is
kind of cold..

From what I've heard, your spring is spectacular, though..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:53:34 -0800 (PST), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Dec 23, 7:44 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>> PDQ wrote:
>>
>> > As to fines, the cyclone culls out almost all the big lumps (think jointer or planer) but does not do as good a job with the fine stuff as a lot of that still gets to the filters.
>>
>> That's why John said "properly designed".
>>
>> My JDS has had over 200 gallons of junk sucked in over the last three
>> months, with less than 2 gallons in the filter bag.
>>
>> I use a decent amount of MDF and plywood, and own a 22" drum sander, so
>> I get plenty of "fine" dust.  It's really obvious just by looking in the
>> drum how much fine dust the drum catches.
>
>I know you know your dB's. JDS claims 78 dB. Is that even close?

I had a real interesting discussion here about "sound suppressors" a few years
ago, don't know if you remember it..
I was trying to figure out how the DC muffler from Penn State could lower the
DB's 7 to 10 db's for "up to a 50% reduction"..
Sounded like snake oil to me, so I asked here and got lots of answers that used
math to explain it and were beyond my understanding..
Then, someone (Dr. Deb?) said that they had one and it lowered it nicely..

I bought one and was really amazed at the difference... Cheap "2 hp" DC from
Harbor Freight, went from shouting to someone next to you to talking in an
almost normal tone..

Got explained to me later in terms that I could understand.. Something about
taking even a few DB off the top lowers the "annoying" level quite a bit..
Anyway, works for me and I'd never run a DC without one now.. YMWV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

B A R R Y wrote:

> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>> B A R R Y wrote:
>>
>>> mac davis wrote:
>>>
>>>> Weather permitting, I sand stuff like that outside..
>>>> I find myself working more and more in the carport, using the "Baja
>>>> Breeze" handle the dust..
>>>
>>> The "Connecticut Breeze" is a tad less accommodating this time of year.
>>
>>
>> That's what we are hearing. How many inches of global warming have you
>> got so far? Or has it missed you and only hit the midwest?
>>
>
>
> ~ 14 last weekend!
>
> I live about 30 minutes from the shore, @ 100 ft/MSL, so that's a huge
> storm.

14" last Friday, 23.5" on Sunday.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

mac davis wrote:
>
> Weather permitting, I sand stuff like that outside..
> I find myself working more and more in the carport, using the "Baja Breeze"
> handle the dust..

The "Connecticut Breeze" is a tad less accommodating this time of year.

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:27:15 -0600, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> MikeWhy wrote:
>>> Subjectively, the small'ish DC and air cleaner work adequately most of
>>> the time, with the ROS being the sole exception. A hole in the wall
>>> likely won't help the ROS.
>>
>>
>> A Shop Vac, drywall bag, and $20 auto switch can do wonders for a ROS.
>>
>> If you're really paranoid, you can add a Cleanstream HEPA filter to catch
>> what escapes the drywall bag.
>
><nods> Yup. I use it so seldom, mostly on plywood only, and then only
>rarely. I haven't bothered getting the 1" adapter to fit on the sander. Hand
>sanding with 220 suffices, but that has a different dust problem. Solid wood
>gets planed or scraped. (So, it's fair to say I stopped using it for lack of
>a $2 vac adapter. I hate the whine of that shop vac, too.)
>
Weather permitting, I sand stuff like that outside..
I find myself working more and more in the carport, using the "Baja Breeze"
handle the dust..
Moving the table saw, router table and belt/disk sander outside made a huge
difference in how often I have to dust the stuff in the shop..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:30:42 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:


>>
>Hey mac!
>
>The scale for dB is logarithmic - I think that each increase of 1 means
>10 times more, just as the Richter scale for earthquakes. Better look at
>wikipedia for more info. How come you need a reduction of 7 to 10 dB for
>50% reduction is not immediately clear, unless we have to go back to the
>Bel decibel is 1/10 of a Bel). Then 10 dB=1 B, or a factor 2. But maybe
>I need more coffee, and then advice from DIL, who teaches physics in a
>high school.

Exactly why I blanked out when folks tried to explain it.. My math skills are
just about good enough to run a calculator..lol



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I noticed that Sears offers a "foam" sleeve that
fits over the regular filter.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00997443000P?mv=rr

Have you tried that ?

They also sell the paper bags for the various models...


http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00917896000P?mv=rr

I assume this is the "drywall bag" everybody is referring to ?

B A R R Y wrote:

> The beauty of the drywall bag is that the dust cake seems to fall off in
> between uses. I like the Cleanstream as a main filter, but the bag is
> a great pre-filter.

"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I do have a couple of the Cleanstream and they
> are nice.
>
> I just thought these drywall bags might
> make things easier.
>
> I also use my shop vac for most sanding operations
> but that fine dust is hell on even the Cleanstream.
>
> Dumping those shop vacs can be a VERY nasty operation.
>
> Maybe Craftsman makes a similar bag.

That was really weird. Thinking I had a Craftsman vac of some sort, I was
somewhat distressed to find that it said Hoover on the outside. Weird. Oh
well. Vaguely remembering that I might have bought a Craftsman filter for it
at one time, I looked inside to see if it was compatible with what
CleanStream was selling. Lo! It was a CleanStream filter. WTF? :D

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> B A R R Y wrote:
>
>> mac davis wrote:
>>> Weather permitting, I sand stuff like that outside..
>>> I find myself working more and more in the carport, using the "Baja
>>> Breeze" handle the dust..
>> The "Connecticut Breeze" is a tad less accommodating this time of year.
>
> That's what we are hearing. How many inches of global warming have you
> got so far? Or has it missed you and only hit the midwest?
>


~ 14 last weekend!

I live about 30 minutes from the shore, @ 100 ft/MSL, so that's a huge
storm.