I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
experience with the durability of using a
stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
<[email protected]> wrote
I didn't want to post...
I was intimidated by someone that turns out
*gulp*
almost 2 1/2 finished kitchens <a week>, day in and day out. That's a
finished kitchen in just 18 hours, every week for 33 years!
WAAAAAY outta my league.
I am seeing a man standing on a top of a new CNC machine, a steely
eyed all seeing gaze in his eyes, Molson in hand, cape blowing in the
breeze....
================================
Careful there Robert.
We don't want to get the man in trouble with Homeland Security!
On Mar 19, 4:03=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote
>
> > Seeing as you put it that way, maybe I should have gone for either
> > 'bezillion' or 'shit-load' of kitchens.
>
> A "coupla brazilian kitchens" would have clarified the issue nicely and i=
s
> at least a double shitload, more or less ... and a few more than I've don=
e.
>
> ... and thank your good buddy, Bush the smaller for the clarification. :)
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
<S> If he would only stand corrected.
On Mar 17, 6:56 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 2:52 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> They are quick and easy to build. If you have never built them I
> >> recommend
> >> cutting the grove for the panels first. Cut the rails the finished
> >> length
> >> plus double the length equal to the depth of the groove depth. Run the
> >> rails and styles through the TS making 2 passes flipping the board end
> >> for
> >> end after each pass so that the groove ends up dead center to establish
> >> the
> >> width to fit the panel.
>
> >> Then with the TS and dado blades or a router table and a large straight
> >> cut
> >> bit form the tennons on the rails to just a hair short of the depth of
> >> the
> >> grooves.
>
> > Think of it as a cope and stick joint except there's no profile on
> > it.
>
> > Whiteside makes a Tongue & Groove assembly bit that turns this into
> > exactly what you would do with a raised panel door. It's just two
> > 9/32 slot cutters with a 9/32 gap between them. You can cut both the
> > tenons and groove with it, but I just use it for the tenons. I use
> > the dado set in the TS to do the grooves, I have the correct shims to
> > get the proper fit marked. I have a setup block for the bit height at
> > the router table and the fence position recorded for the TS as well.
> > Tenons are done in one pass, same with the grooves. Fast and easy.
>
> I have been down that road, I prefer to save time and have a tighter fitting
> panel using the TS.
It just so happens 1/4" baltic birch plus veneer on one side fits in
there just right, which on a small panel works fine. I suspect
undersized 1/4" ply with veneer on both sides would fit pretty well
too, haven't tried it. Usually I do a flat solid panel and just drum
sand it to fit.
-Kevin
Leon wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:bc2e629b-9534-4872-bdd1-a04f235af1b2@r36g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 17, 2:38 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
>> experience with the durability of using a
>> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
>> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
>> rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
>
> Did you read any of the replies?
> Good.
> Now throw all that advice in the trash.
>
> The panels MUST float. Regardless of material used. If you decide to
> glue the panels in place, refer back to this post 2 years mAX down the
> road.
> YOU NEVER confine a panel within a rail & stile frame. EVER,
>
>
> I only have about 30 years of experience of doing this also. Not nearly
> 4,0000000000000000 kitchens but hey, results are results. ;~) While my
> advise also did not recommend gluing the panel in place, perhaps you can
> explain to us why a plywood or MDF panel should not be glued in place. That
> will help those that do this as a practice understand why, other than it
> should not be done. My thoughts are that it is simply not necessary but
> have had no problems with any of my furniture that has plywood panels clued
> directly to the edge of hard wood where glue and biscuits are the only means
> of holding things together.
While I don't have as many years doing this as you guys, my
understanding is that with a simple rail and stile door with a *single
panel*, it's the stability of the panel (or lack thereof) that dictates
whether or not it must float. If the panel is made from stable material
with no chance of expansion, there is no reason why it can't be glued in
place. The overall width or height of the door as a whole may change
slightly due to expansion or contraction in the *width of the rails or
stiles*, but wood does not expand or contract (significantly) along its
length so there should be no measurable change in the 1/4" or so of area
of contact around the perimeter of the panel. If the panel is unstable,
it may change in width relative to the length of the rail (assuming the
panel is vertically oriented), and that's a problem.
However, if you have a large *multi-panel* door (or something similar),
then gluing stable panels in place would be a problem. Multiple rows of
rails and stiles all moving at different rates across their width would
cause all manner of stress throughout the workpiece.
--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Any reason to leave them floating, guys?
> Other than to retain that nice rattle sound when the door shuts. :-)
No reason to leave them floating other than to cut down on glue and assembly
time. Because heavier raised panel style doors are typically heavier and
are not glued in place, it really is not necessary to glue in a thin panel,
it is basically over kill. If you cut the groves like I mentioned in
another post there is no panel rattle. That is the problem you run into if
you use a rail and stile bit set which a fixed panel thickness. With the
TS you literally make the groove the same width as the panel thickness.
On Mar 19, 3:47=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mar 18, 4:08=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Hell, split the difference and glue just the middle third on all four s=
ides
> > if you think the relative weakness of the joint will benefit.
>
> If I am in doubt on a larger door, I will usually put a dot of glue in
> the groove in all four sides as I don't like the rattle if the panel
> shrinks.
>
> The way I learned to make doors was to let the panel float. =A0But on
> smaller doors, I haven't had one fail when I glued it all around. =A0And
> I cannot count the number of room sized doors as well as kitchen doors
> I have caulked in place since all the old "natural" finishes are being
> replaced by white paint. =A0No failures in the fields of the panels yet,
> but in some cases there are some hairline movement cracks at the panel
> to adjacent wood areas.
>
> I didn't want to post...
>
> I was intimidated by someone that turns out
>
> *gulp*
>
> almost 2 1/2 finished kitchens <a week>, day in and day out. =A0That's a
> finished kitchen in just 18 hours, every week for 33 years!
>
Seeing as you put it that way, maybe I should have gone for either
'bezillion' or 'shit-load' of kitchens.
Although we have had weeks when we did make up to 3 kitchens, we
certainly didn't have that pace for 33 years.
I stand corrected.
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> While I don't have as many years doing this as you guys, my understanding
> is that with a simple rail and stile door with a *single panel*, it's the
> stability of the panel (or lack thereof) that dictates whether or not it
> must float. If the panel is made from stable material with no chance of
> expansion, there is no reason why it can't be glued in place. The overall
> width or height of the door as a whole may change slightly due to
> expansion or contraction in the *width of the rails or stiles*, but wood
> does not expand or contract (significantly) along its length so there
> should be no measurable change in the 1/4" or so of area of contact around
> the perimeter of the panel. If the panel is unstable, it may change in
> width relative to the length of the rail (assuming the panel is vertically
> oriented), and that's a problem.
>
> However, if you have a large *multi-panel* door (or something similar),
> then gluing stable panels in place would be a problem. Multiple rows of
> rails and stiles all moving at different rates across their width would
> cause all manner of stress throughout the workpiece.
Correct. I just wanted to have some insight as to what Robatoy has been
finding wrong with gluing a stable panel in place. Of the many bathroom and
kitchen remodels I have done if used the stub tennon method on several jobs.
The center plywood bead board panel is always painted and that paint
effectively glues the panel in place. A bathroom in my home is done this
way and 6 years later shows no signs of problems as well as a kitchen and
laundry room I did for a friend/customer in the same way some 10+ years ago.
I have heard no complaints from 3 other customers with the same painted
panels.
I feel however that gluing a panel in place may be more problematic if the
door is hit or if something heavy drops on it. Typically the glue joint is
stronger than the wood and the joint is not going to fail before the wood
does. Gluing the panel in will add strength to the door in this situation
however if something or some one fell on the door, the door may very well
tear the face frame off of the cabinet providing the hinges don't fail. I
personally would rather the door come apart than parts of the cabinet.
Robatoy wrote:
> On Mar 17, 2:38 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
>> experience with the durability of using a
>> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
>> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
>> rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
>
> Did you read any of the replies?
> Good.
> Now throw all that advice in the trash.
>
> The panels MUST float. Regardless of material used. If you decide to
> glue the panels in place, refer back to this post 2 years mAX down the
> road.
> YOU NEVER confine a panel within a rail & stile frame. EVER,
Sorry, I can't report back in two years max as my newest glued in plywood or
masonite panels are older than that. Oldest are around 12 years.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ae2b19fe-b6d3-4032-a65c-75ade584e271@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
> experience with the durability of using a
> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
> rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
I have probably built a hundred cabinet doors this way, with floating
panels. There should be no issue with this method unless the panel is extra
extra extra large.
They are quick and easy to build. If you have never built them I recommend
cutting the grove for the panels first. Cut the rails the finished length
plus double the length equal to the depth of the groove depth. Run the
rails and styles through the TS making 2 passes flipping the board end for
end after each pass so that the groove ends up dead center to establish the
width to fit the panel.
Then with the TS and dado blades or a router table and a large straight cut
bit form the tennons on the rails to just a hair short of the depth of the
grooves.
[email protected] wrote:
> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
> experience with the durability of using a
> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
> rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
If the panel is engineered (plywood/mdf/etc.) rather than solid wood
then gluing the panel should be fine and will provide substantial
additional strength.
Chris
"Robatoy" wrote
> Seeing as you put it that way, maybe I should have gone for either
> 'bezillion' or 'shit-load' of kitchens.
A "coupla brazilian kitchens" would have clarified the issue nicely and is
at least a double shitload, more or less ... and a few more than I've done.
... and thank your good buddy, Bush the smaller for the clarification. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Leon" wrote:
> If you cut the groves like I mentioned in another post there is no
> panel rattle. That is the problem you run into if you use a rail
> and stile bit set which a fixed panel thickness. With the TS you
> literally make the groove the same width as the panel thickness.
AKA: Basic Norm101.
It is almost like a litany with him.
Lew
On Mar 17, 2:57=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. =A0A=
ny
> >> experience with the durability of using a
> >> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? =A0The panel is veneer over a
> >> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
> >> rigidity. =A0Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
>
> > If the panel is engineered (plywood/mdf/etc.) rather than solid wood
> > then gluing the panel should be fine and will provide substantial
> > additional strength.
>
> > Chris
>
> I never thought of this. =A0I'm going to be making some shaker doors with
> plywood or mdf.
> You *can* glue the panels when they're not solid, can't you?
> You get a concept in your head and it sticks even when you don't need it.
>
> Any reason to leave them floating, guys?
> Other than to retain that nice rattle sound when the door shuts. =A0:-)
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
I should have said originally that my panel was veneer over MDF,
instead of the generic substrate. So yeas you can glue it in. I was
wondering about the streangth, but as another poster said, it is like
a cope and stick without
a profile.
On Mar 18, 4:08=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hell, split the difference and glue just the middle third on all four sid=
es
> if you think the relative weakness of the joint will benefit.
If I am in doubt on a larger door, I will usually put a dot of glue in
the groove in all four sides as I don't like the rattle if the panel
shrinks.
The way I learned to make doors was to let the panel float. But on
smaller doors, I haven't had one fail when I glued it all around. And
I cannot count the number of room sized doors as well as kitchen doors
I have caulked in place since all the old "natural" finishes are being
replaced by white paint. No failures in the fields of the panels yet,
but in some cases there are some hairline movement cracks at the panel
to adjacent wood areas.
I didn't want to post...
I was intimidated by someone that turns out
*gulp*
almost 2 1/2 finished kitchens <a week>, day in and day out. That's a
finished kitchen in just 18 hours, every week for 33 years!
WAAAAAY outta my league.
I am seeing a man standing on a top of a new CNC machine, a steely
eyed all seeing gaze in his eyes, Molson in hand, cape blowing in the
breeze....
Yippeeee!
Robert
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ae2b19fe-b6d3-4032-a65c-75ade584e271@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
> experience with the durability of using a
> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
> rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
I also have a few kitchens/doors under my belt, and this is the way I've
approached it for a number of years:
With a door made using mortise & tenon/floating tenon joints, I do not feel
it necessary to glue a panel of any kind in, and use string for spacers. A
stub-tenon-to-groove glue joint is a relatively weak joint, and, depending
upon the door size, I have no problem gluing in a plywood panel if I feel
the door needs it.
So far, so good .. YMMV.
Hell, split the difference and glue just the middle third on all four sides
if you think the relative weakness of the joint will benefit.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Mar 17, 2:38=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. =A0Any
> experience with the durability of using a
> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? =A0The panel is veneer over a
> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
> rigidity. =A0Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
Did you read any of the replies?
Good.
Now throw all that advice in the trash.
The panels MUST float. Regardless of material used. If you decide to
glue the panels in place, refer back to this post 2 years mAX down the
road.
YOU NEVER confine a panel within a rail & stile frame. EVER,
But don't listen to me. I'm just a guy with 4000+ kitchens under his
belt. In 33 years, the only trouble I have ever had with doors that I
made, were 5 piece doors that had the panel fit in too tightly, glued
in, or trapped in place by too much acrylic lacquer.
I'm sorry if I offended anybody, but allow the panel to float. What
are those thingies called? SpaceBalls? (I just use closed cell cord
that one uses to rebuild screen doors/windows. Just 1/2" pieces
located two per side.
On Mar 20, 2:11=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mar 19, 1:13=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Seeing as you put it that way, maybe I should have gone for either
> > 'bezillion' or 'shit-load' of kitchens.
>
> OK, now those are numbers I can relate to! =A0Especially a "shit load".
> That's a technical term that I understand. =A0And who wants to divide
> out a "shit load"?
>
> A "whole shit load" of cabinets divided out over 33 years is
>
> well....
>
> ummm....
>
> A SHITLOAD!
>
> Not divisible by modern technology.
I don't know if he ever said anything like that, but just heard George
Carlin's voice when I read that.
>
> > I stand corrected.
>
> Just messin' =A0with you, buddy!
>
I can take it.
I should learn to embellish a little more along the Texas
vernacular. :-)
Here we have a unit called a fuckton. WAY more that a shitload TIMES
an assload.
It often refers to beer or snow.
From the Urban Dictionary:
shitload
meaning quite a few, a bunch, a lot, very many, more than you care to
be able to count, more than you can count; a widely used exaggeration
of there being far too many of something ~ not to be confused with a
boatload or a whole fucking bunch.
'Holy shit man, that's a shitload of midgets in that parade.'
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I'm sorry if I offended anybody, but allow the panel to float. What
> are those thingies called? SpaceBalls? (I just use closed cell cord
> that one uses to rebuild screen doors/windows. Just 1/2" pieces
> located two per side.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=58675&cat=1,250,43298
On Mar 19, 1:13=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Seeing as you put it that way, maybe I should have gone for either
> 'bezillion' or 'shit-load' of kitchens.
OK, now those are numbers I can relate to! Especially a "shit load".
That's a technical term that I understand. And who wants to divide
out a "shit load"?
A "whole shit load" of cabinets divided out over 33 years is
well....
ummm....
A SHITLOAD!
Not divisible by modern technology.
> I stand corrected.
Just messin' with you, buddy!
:^)
Robert
On Mar 17, 2:52 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> They are quick and easy to build. If you have never built them I recommend
> cutting the grove for the panels first. Cut the rails the finished length
> plus double the length equal to the depth of the groove depth. Run the
> rails and styles through the TS making 2 passes flipping the board end for
> end after each pass so that the groove ends up dead center to establish the
> width to fit the panel.
>
> Then with the TS and dado blades or a router table and a large straight cut
> bit form the tennons on the rails to just a hair short of the depth of the
> grooves.
Think of it as a cope and stick joint except there's no profile on
it.
Whiteside makes a Tongue & Groove assembly bit that turns this into
exactly what you would do with a raised panel door. It's just two
9/32 slot cutters with a 9/32 gap between them. You can cut both the
tenons and groove with it, but I just use it for the tenons. I use
the dado set in the TS to do the grooves, I have the correct shims to
get the proper fit marked. I have a setup block for the bit height at
the router table and the fence position recorded for the TS as well.
Tenons are done in one pass, same with the grooves. Fast and easy.
-Kevin
>> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
>> experience with the durability of using a
>> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
>> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
>> rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
>
> If the panel is engineered (plywood/mdf/etc.) rather than solid wood
> then gluing the panel should be fine and will provide substantial
> additional strength.
>
> Chris
I never thought of this. I'm going to be making some shaker doors with
plywood or mdf.
You *can* glue the panels when they're not solid, can't you?
You get a concept in your head and it sticks even when you don't need it.
Any reason to leave them floating, guys?
Other than to retain that nice rattle sound when the door shuts. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
.
>>
>> I have been down that road, I prefer to save time and have a tighter
>> fitting
>> panel using the TS.
>
> It just so happens 1/4" baltic birch plus veneer on one side fits in
> there just right, which on a small panel works fine. I suspect
> undersized 1/4" ply with veneer on both sides would fit pretty well
> too, haven't tried it. Usually I do a flat solid panel and just drum
> sand it to fit.
>
>
> -Kevin
>
Well drum sanding panels to fit can take a while, especially if you have
20-30 or so do. I still prefer to simply cut the grove to the exact needed
thickness. Much faster and a for sure perfect fit.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a46ec4f0-7e6e-4490-899b-afdbaeb8b0e8@j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 4:08 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
I didn't want to post...
I was intimidated by someone that turns out
*gulp*
almost 2 1/2 finished kitchens <a week>, day in and day out. That's a
finished kitchen in just 18 hours, every week for 33 years!
Simply "Unbelieveable", HUH!
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mar 17, 2:52 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> They are quick and easy to build. If you have never built them I
>> recommend
>> cutting the grove for the panels first. Cut the rails the finished
>> length
>> plus double the length equal to the depth of the groove depth. Run the
>> rails and styles through the TS making 2 passes flipping the board end
>> for
>> end after each pass so that the groove ends up dead center to establish
>> the
>> width to fit the panel.
>>
>> Then with the TS and dado blades or a router table and a large straight
>> cut
>> bit form the tennons on the rails to just a hair short of the depth of
>> the
>> grooves.
>
> Think of it as a cope and stick joint except there's no profile on
> it.
>
> Whiteside makes a Tongue & Groove assembly bit that turns this into
> exactly what you would do with a raised panel door. It's just two
> 9/32 slot cutters with a 9/32 gap between them. You can cut both the
> tenons and groove with it, but I just use it for the tenons. I use
> the dado set in the TS to do the grooves, I have the correct shims to
> get the proper fit marked. I have a setup block for the bit height at
> the router table and the fence position recorded for the TS as well.
> Tenons are done in one pass, same with the grooves. Fast and easy.
I have been down that road, I prefer to save time and have a tighter fitting
panel using the TS.
Feel free to use my personal favorite:
Metric AssLoad(tm)
[email protected] wrote:
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:bc2e629b-9534-4872-bdd1-a04f235af1b2@r36g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 17, 2:38 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm making a wall type cabinet and and am ready to make the door. Any
> experience with the durability of using a
> stub tenon for the frame and panel door? The panel is veneer over a
> substrate, so it could be glued to the rails and stiles for increased
> rigidity. Or am I just asking for trouble down the line?
Did you read any of the replies?
Good.
Now throw all that advice in the trash.
The panels MUST float. Regardless of material used. If you decide to
glue the panels in place, refer back to this post 2 years mAX down the
road.
YOU NEVER confine a panel within a rail & stile frame. EVER,
I only have about 30 years of experience of doing this also. Not nearly
4,0000000000000000 kitchens but hey, results are results. ;~) While my
advise also did not recommend gluing the panel in place, perhaps you can
explain to us why a plywood or MDF panel should not be glued in place. That
will help those that do this as a practice understand why, other than it
should not be done. My thoughts are that it is simply not necessary but
have had no problems with any of my furniture that has plywood panels clued
directly to the edge of hard wood where glue and biscuits are the only means
of holding things together.