Q from The Joint Book by Terrie Noll

charlie b <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> This first page illustrates the answer to your question.
>
> http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/KickBack/KickBack2A.html
>
> Might want to start here and go thru the following pages about
> that thing you don't want to experience.
>
> http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/KickBack/KickBack1.html
>
> What you don't know CAN hurt you.
>
> charlie b
>

Actually, the second page illustrated the answer to my question... that I
didn't ask. A splitter is just a straight piece of metal, while a riving
knife moves up and down with the blade, following its contour.

Well worth a read, even if you've read it before.

Puckdropper

This first page illustrates the answer to your question.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/KickBack/KickBack2A.html

Might want to start here and go thru the following pages about
that thing you don't want to experience.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/KickBack/KickBack1.html

What you don't know CAN hurt you.

charlie b

No problem. Glad you found the info potentially useful. And if
there's something that's not clear, or that I've overlooked
PLEASE let me know so I can improve what's there now and
fill any gaps I might have left. That way the next guy may
benefit.

charlie b

dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> If you happen to have this book, maybe you can help me. If you don't
>> and are interested, you can also see the whole page by clicking on
>> the follow link to amazon.com and then searching inside the book for
>> the phrase "End Lap on the Table Saw",
>> http://www.amazon.com/Joint-Book-TERRIE-NOLL/dp/0785822275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262854848&sr=1-1
>>
>> If you've never done that before, searching inside books this way is
>> a nice way to find useful information.
>>
>>
>> In "End Lap on the Table Saw", page 46, Step #3, the author writes
>>
>> Lock the fence and clamp the scrap in front of the blade.
>> Butt the stock against the block and push the cut through with the
>> gauge.
>>
>> After considering it over in my head for 3 days, I may have the jist
>> of it, but I think it may be important so I'll post anyway. It beats
>> reading the political thread. : ) First off, what the author is
>> doing here is making a cut one side of which will form the shoulder.
>> I had to wonder why he is working so hard at it (as a beginner, it
>> would not have occurred to me to make it so difficult). And that is
>> the reason I am asking. I have decided that it should probably say,
>> "butt the stock against the FRONT side of the block and against the
>> fence and push...". Yet the author still does not explain his
>> rationale.
>> I can see how using the block and fence help ensure a square cut,
>> but I'm curious why that should be expected to do better than the
>> gauge and fence alone assuming the mitre guage is square. I saw a
>> similar technique used on NYW online tonight (free online episode, 1
>> per month here), though I don't recall Norm clamping the block.
>> http://www.newyankee.com/online.php
>>
>> So it all boils down to: Why is it worth using/clamping an extra
>> block in place?
>
>
> The block serves only as a gauge to set the cut location; as you push
> with the miter gauge, the stock being cut moves past the block and
> into the saw blade. There is no possibility of trapping the free end
> of the stock against the fence which would result in very bad things
> you don't want to experience.
>
> IOW, following the instructions helps keep your body intact.

I should also say that if you are cutting a half lap in only one piece,
there is no purpose to the block...using a block allows you to make the
shoulder cut at the same location on many pieces.

If you are only cutting one, shove the fence out of he way and use only the
miter gauge.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Snip
>
> Table saw safety 101--stock should never touch the miter gage and fence at
> the same time during a cut--doing so risks getting a piece of stock wedged
> between the blade and fence which results in the stock being thrown at you
> violently.

Actually you need to ammend that comment. That is true only if you are
making a through cut resulting in 2 pieces. If you are cutting a rabbet on
the end of the piece and use the fence as as index to establish the length
of the rabbit you will be fine using the fence and miter gauge at the same
time.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip

>
> I'm pretty sure I've got it now. So in the situation I described at first,
> the block will keeps the stock furthest from the fence from being thrown
> back at the sawyer. And since a rabbet is being cut, there is not problem
> of using both a mitre gauge and the fence at the same time. Whew!!!
> Please correct me if necessary. I may never make an "End lap on the
> table saw", but these principles/lessons are (obviously) very valuable!
>
> Thank you!
> Bill

Yeah Bill, the "block" is used as a stop block attached to the fence. You
absolutely do not want a loose piece of wood to become trapped between the
blade and the fence. The block off sets the fence so that there is
clearance between the fence and the blade equal to the size of the block.
You still have to be careful as the loose piece could spin around so if
practicle the block should be larger than the cut off piece, width and
length, between the fence and the blade.

When cutting a rabbet or half lap you really don't have any loose pieces so
a block is not necessary if done correctly.
You should always start on the end of the stock and work it towards the
fence when cutting these type joints.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:



SNIP


>
> The one cut where it's safe to work with the fence and miter gage at the
> same time cutting a rabbet in one pass where there is no stock between the
> blade and the fence. One can stretch that a tiny bit if the piece between
> blade and fence is thin enough to reliably break off rather than tossing
> the
> whole lump of stock at you.
>

Yeah, that was what I was saying. The stock can touch the fence and the
miter gauge and in one pass create a rabbit with no danger of anything
getting caught between the blade and the fence. If you need a rabbet that
is longer than the thickness of the dado set you simply start with the stock
being cut at the end and work your way towards the fence. I was simply
pointing out that it is not always trouble as you had inferred for the stock
to touch the miter gauge and the fence. And you basically repeated my
comment in the above paragraph.

Bill wrote:
> If you happen to have this book, maybe you can help me. If you don't
> and
> are interested, you can also see the whole page by clicking on the
> follow
> link to amazon.com and then searching inside the book for the phrase
> "End
> Lap on the Table Saw",
> http://www.amazon.com/Joint-Book-TERRIE-NOLL/dp/0785822275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262854848&sr=1-1
>
> If you've never done that before, searching inside books this way is
> a nice
> way to find useful information.
>
>
> In "End Lap on the Table Saw", page 46, Step #3, the author writes
>
> Lock the fence and clamp the scrap in front of the blade.
> Butt the stock against the block and push the cut through with the
> gauge.
>
>
> After considering it over in my head for 3 days, I may have the jist
> of it,
> but I think it may be important so I'll post anyway. It beats
> reading the
> political thread. : ) First off, what the author is doing here is
> making a
> cut one side of which will form the shoulder. I had to wonder why
> he is
> working so hard at it (as a beginner, it would not have occurred to
> me to
> make it so difficult). And that is the reason I am asking. I have
> decided
> that it should probably say, "butt the stock against the FRONT side
> of the
> block and against the fence and push...". Yet the author still does
> not
> explain his rationale.
>
> I can see how using the block and fence help ensure a square cut,
> but I'm
> curious why that should be expected to do better than the gauge and
> fence
> alone assuming the mitre guage is square. I saw a similar technique
> used on
> NYW online tonight (free online episode, 1 per month here), though I
> don't
> recall Norm clamping the block.
> http://www.newyankee.com/online.php
>
> So it all boils down to: Why is it worth using/clamping an extra
> block in
> place?

Table saw safety 101--stock should never touch the miter gage and fence at
the same time during a cut--doing so risks getting a piece of stock wedged
between the blade and fence which results in the stock being thrown at you
violently.

The block allows you to align the stock without having it be in contact with
the fence during the actual cut.

If you find "The Table Saw Book" by Kelly Mehler and look on page 65 there
is demonstration of kickback.

You might want to get a copy of that book and read it through--a table saw
can hurt you in some non-obvious ways.

> The idea of putting a clamps on an expensive TS fence seems
> counter-intuitive to me.

The fence is not fragile in that way. At least it shouldn't be--if putting
clamps on it damages it it was a piece of crap to begin with. "Table Saw
Magic" by Jim Tolpin shows a wide variety of useful accessories that attach
to the fence.

> I hope I haven't beat a dead horse...

Safety is never a dead horse.

>
> Bill

Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Snip
>>
>> Table saw safety 101--stock should never touch the miter gage and
>> fence at the same time during a cut--doing so risks getting a piece
>> of stock wedged between the blade and fence which results in the
>> stock being thrown at you violently.
>
> Actually you need to ammend that comment.

No, I don't.

> That is true only if you
> are making a through cut resulting in 2 pieces. If you are cutting a
> rabbet on the end of the piece and use the fence as as index to
> establish the length of the rabbit you will be fine using the fence
> and miter gauge at the same time.

No, you won't. The piece can still get crossed up and instead of just
getting a cut-off end tossed at you you get the whole workpiece tossed at
you. If you look on page 65 in "The Table Saw Book" you will find a
demonstration of just this occurring.

The one cut where it's safe to work with the fence and miter gage at the
same time cutting a rabbet in one pass where there is no stock between the
blade and the fence. One can stretch that a tiny bit if the piece between
blade and fence is thin enough to reliably break off rather than tossing the
whole lump of stock at you.

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:

There is no possibility of trapping the free end of the stock
> against the fence which would result in very bad things you don't want to
> experience.

Ah. Thank you.

>I should also say that if you are cutting a half lap in only one piece,
>there is no purpose to the block...using a block allows you to make the
>shoulder cut at the same location on many pieces.

By permitting you to use the fence and the mitre gauge at the same time,
right?


J. Clarke wrote:
>Table saw safety 101--stock should never touch the miter gage and fence at
>the same time

Thank you. Safety is paramount. So having the block on the side of the
blade
you are standing on (not sure if this is the front or the rear) provides an
exemption
to this rule?


I just happend to have Mehler's book within arms reach. I looked at it
several few years
ago (while I was an apartment dweller). I'm sure I will get more out of it
now if
I read it again.

Thank you,
Bill

Bill wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
...

>> I should also say that if you are cutting a half lap in only one piece,
>> there is no purpose to the block...using a block allows you to make the
>> shoulder cut at the same location on many pieces.
>
> By permitting you to use the fence and the mitre gauge at the same time,
> right?

Technically, yes, but...you only want the block to be in front of the
blade sufficiently far that the stock has cleared it _completely_
_BEFORE_ engaging the front of the blade .

>
>
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Table saw safety 101--stock should never touch the miter gage and fence at
>> the same time
>
> Thank you. Safety is paramount. So having the block on the side of the
> blade
> you are standing on (not sure if this is the front or the rear) provides an
> exemption to this rule?

Absolutely not. See above.

--

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>
>
>
> SNIP
>
>
>>
>> The one cut where it's safe to work with the fence and miter gage at the
>> same time cutting a rabbet in one pass where there is no stock between
>> the
>> blade and the fence. One can stretch that a tiny bit if the piece
>> between
>> blade and fence is thin enough to reliably break off rather than tossing
>> the
>> whole lump of stock at you.
>>
>
> Yeah, that was what I was saying. The stock can touch the fence and the
> miter gauge and in one pass create a rabbit with no danger of anything
> getting caught between the blade and the fence. If you need a rabbet that
> is longer than the thickness of the dado set you simply start with the
> stock being cut at the end and work your way towards the fence. I was
> simply pointing out that it is not always trouble as you had inferred for
> the stock to touch the miter gauge and the fence. And you basically
> repeated my comment in the above paragraph.

I'm pretty sure I've got it now. So in the situation I described at first,
the block will keeps the stock furthest from the fence from being thrown
back at the sawyer. And since a rabbet is being cut, there is not problem
of using both a mitre gauge and the fence at the same time. Whew!!! Please
correct me if necessary. I may never make an "End lap on the table saw",
but these principles/lessons are (obviously) very valuable!

Thank you!
Bill

Bill wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> There is no possibility of trapping the free end of the stock
>> against the fence which would result in very bad things you don't
>> want to experience.
>
> Ah. Thank you.
>
>> I should also say that if you are cutting a half lap in only one
>> piece, there is no purpose to the block...using a block allows you
>> to make the shoulder cut at the same location on many pieces.
>
> By permitting you to use the fence and the mitre gauge at the same
> time, right?

You use the block to set the position of the piece in the miter gage, but
before the stock engages the blade it should be clear of the block and
supported only by the miter gage.

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Table saw safety 101--stock should never touch the miter gage and
>> fence at the same time
>
> Thank you. Safety is paramount. So having the block on the side of
> the blade
> you are standing on (not sure if this is the front or the rear)
> provides an exemption
> to this rule?

No. The block doesn't go between the fence and the blade, it is in front of
the blade. You set the stock on the saw so that it is touching the block,
you then secure it to the miter gage using either finger pressure or a clamp
as you deem appropriate, then start moving the miter gage and secured stock
toward the blade. It should slide past the block before it goes into the
blade.

> I just happend to have Mehler's book within arms reach. I looked at it
> several few years
> ago (while I was an apartment dweller). I'm sure I will get more out
> of it now if
> I read it again.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you happen to have this book, maybe you can help me. If you don't and
> are interested, you can also see the whole page by clicking on the follow
> link to amazon.com and then searching inside the book for the phrase "End
> Lap on the Table Saw",
> http://www.amazon.com/Joint-Book-TERRIE-NOLL/dp/0785822275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262854848&sr=1-1
>
> If you've never done that before, searching inside books this way is a
> nice way to find useful information.
>
>
> In "End Lap on the Table Saw", page 46, Step #3, the author writes
>
> Lock the fence and clamp the scrap in front of the blade.
> Butt the stock against the block and push the cut through with the gauge.
>
>
> After considering it over in my head for 3 days, I may have the jist of
> it, but I think it may be important so I'll post anyway. It beats reading
> the political thread. : ) First off, what the author is doing here is
> making a cut one side of which will form the shoulder. I had to wonder
> why he is working so hard at it (as a beginner, it would not have occurred
> to me to make it so difficult). And that is the reason I am asking. I
> have decided that it should probably say, "butt the stock against the
> FRONT side of the block and against the fence and push...". Yet the
> author still does not explain his rationale.
>
> I can see how using the block and fence help ensure a square cut, but I'm
> curious why that should be expected to do better than the gauge and fence
> alone assuming the mitre guage is square. I saw a similar technique used
> on NYW online tonight (free online episode, 1 per month here), though I
> don't recall Norm clamping the block.
> http://www.newyankee.com/online.php
>
> So it all boils down to: Why is it worth using/clamping an extra block in
> place? The idea of putting a clamps on an expensive TS fence seems
> counter-intuitive to me. I hope I haven't beat a dead horse...
>
> Bill
>

It suddenly occurred to me that I Own a copy of that book. If you look at
the diagram in Step 2, you'll see what everyone else has been talking
about - the cut portion of the stock cannot get wedged between the blade and
the fence.

"LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> If you happen to have this book, maybe you can help me. If you don't and
>> are interested, you can also see the whole page by clicking on the follow
>> link to amazon.com and then searching inside the book for the phrase "End
>> Lap on the Table Saw",
>> http://www.amazon.com/Joint-Book-TERRIE-NOLL/dp/0785822275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262854848&sr=1-1
>>
>> If you've never done that before, searching inside books this way is a
>> nice way to find useful information.
>>
>>
>> In "End Lap on the Table Saw", page 46, Step #3, the author writes
>>
>> Lock the fence and clamp the scrap in front of the blade.
>> Butt the stock against the block and push the cut through with the gauge.
>>
>>
>> After considering it over in my head for 3 days, I may have the jist of
>> it, but I think it may be important so I'll post anyway. It beats
>> reading the political thread. : ) First off, what the author is doing
>> here is making a cut one side of which will form the shoulder. I had to
>> wonder why he is working so hard at it (as a beginner, it would not have
>> occurred to me to make it so difficult). And that is the reason I am
>> asking. I have decided that it should probably say, "butt the stock
>> against the FRONT side of the block and against the fence and push...".
>> Yet the author still does not explain his rationale.
>>
>> I can see how using the block and fence help ensure a square cut, but
>> I'm curious why that should be expected to do better than the gauge and
>> fence alone assuming the mitre guage is square. I saw a similar
>> technique used on NYW online tonight (free online episode, 1 per month
>> here), though I don't recall Norm clamping the block.
>> http://www.newyankee.com/online.php
>>
>> So it all boils down to: Why is it worth using/clamping an extra block in
>> place? The idea of putting a clamps on an expensive TS fence seems
>> counter-intuitive to me. I hope I haven't beat a dead horse...
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
> It suddenly occurred to me that I Own a copy of that book. If you look at
> the diagram in Step 2, you'll see what everyone else has been talking
> about - the cut portion of the stock cannot get wedged between the blade
> and the fence.

In Step 2, they are just positioning the fence. I believe Step 3 is the one
that has been under
discussion. I think the author should have provided a top view instead.

One of the things I like about the book is that it makes me think, but it
left me with too many
unanswered questions in this example. The book includes a lot of
interesting "asides". It's a nice little book.
I picked it up for less than the price of a copy of FWW at the newstand. I'm
expecting
a little more from (Taunton's) Complete Illustrated Guide To Joinery. I had
a chance to buy it at my
local used book store, and they had 3 copies, but when I went back to get
one they were all gone,
so I picked up this book instead. It has advanced my knowledge of joinery
quite a bit--for any folks
that may at this point know less about it than I do, the central theme is
that glueing end grain doesn't
work, and cross-glueing long grain surfaces does not produce the same
strength as glueing parallel
long grain surfaces. One should also try to take into account the direction
of the rings (since wood is
not stable). It's interesting stuff.

Bill

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> If you happen to have this book, maybe you can help me. If you don't
>>> and are interested, you can also see the whole page by clicking on the
>>> follow link to amazon.com and then searching inside the book for the
>>> phrase "End Lap on the Table Saw",
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Joint-Book-TERRIE-NOLL/dp/0785822275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262854848&sr=1-1
>>>
>>> If you've never done that before, searching inside books this way is a
>>> nice way to find useful information.
>>>
>>>
>>> In "End Lap on the Table Saw", page 46, Step #3, the author writes
>>>
>>> Lock the fence and clamp the scrap in front of the blade.
>>> Butt the stock against the block and push the cut through with the
>>> gauge.
>>>
>>>
>>> After considering it over in my head for 3 days, I may have the jist of
>>> it, but I think it may be important so I'll post anyway. It beats
>>> reading the political thread. : ) First off, what the author is doing
>>> here is making a cut one side of which will form the shoulder. I had
>>> to wonder why he is working so hard at it (as a beginner, it would not
>>> have occurred to me to make it so difficult). And that is the reason I
>>> am asking. I have decided that it should probably say, "butt the stock
>>> against the FRONT side of the block and against the fence and push...".
>>> Yet the author still does not explain his rationale.
>>>
>>> I can see how using the block and fence help ensure a square cut, but
>>> I'm curious why that should be expected to do better than the gauge and
>>> fence alone assuming the mitre guage is square. I saw a similar
>>> technique used on NYW online tonight (free online episode, 1 per month
>>> here), though I don't recall Norm clamping the block.
>>> http://www.newyankee.com/online.php
>>>
>>> So it all boils down to: Why is it worth using/clamping an extra block
>>> in place? The idea of putting a clamps on an expensive TS fence seems
>>> counter-intuitive to me. I hope I haven't beat a dead horse...
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>
>> It suddenly occurred to me that I Own a copy of that book. If you look at
>> the diagram in Step 2, you'll see what everyone else has been talking
>> about - the cut portion of the stock cannot get wedged between the blade
>> and the fence.
>
> In Step 2, they are just positioning the fence. I believe Step 3 is the
> one that has been under
> discussion. I think the author should have provided a top view instead.

Look at step 2 as a top view. Slide something over the fence in the diagram.

>
> One of the things I like about the book is that it makes me think, but it
> left me with too many
> unanswered questions in this example. The book includes a lot of
> interesting "asides". It's a nice little book.

Been a while since I've looked at and it has now made it to my night stand
again!

> I picked it up for less than the price of a copy of FWW at the newstand.
> I'm expecting
> a little more from (Taunton's) Complete Illustrated Guide To Joinery. I
> had a chance to buy it at my
> local used book store, and they had 3 copies, but when I went back to get
> one they were all gone,

Bummer!

> so I picked up this book instead. It has advanced my knowledge of joinery
> quite a bit--for any folks
> that may at this point know less about it than I do,

Everybody knows less than they think they do.

>

"LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Look at step 2 as a top view. Slide something over the fence in the
> diagram.

Yes, that diagram makes good sense in retrospect... I still feel that the
author
"pulled a fast one" in Step 3 (as evidenced by this thread).


Best,
Bill

Bill wrote:
> If you happen to have this book, maybe you can help me. If you don't
> and are interested, you can also see the whole page by clicking on
> the follow link to amazon.com and then searching inside the book for
> the phrase "End Lap on the Table Saw",
> http://www.amazon.com/Joint-Book-TERRIE-NOLL/dp/0785822275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262854848&sr=1-1
>
> If you've never done that before, searching inside books this way is
> a nice way to find useful information.
>
>
> In "End Lap on the Table Saw", page 46, Step #3, the author writes
>
> Lock the fence and clamp the scrap in front of the blade.
> Butt the stock against the block and push the cut through with the
> gauge.
>
> After considering it over in my head for 3 days, I may have the jist
> of it, but I think it may be important so I'll post anyway. It beats
> reading the political thread. : ) First off, what the author is
> doing here is making a cut one side of which will form the shoulder. I had
> to wonder why he is working so hard at it (as a beginner, it
> would not have occurred to me to make it so difficult). And that is
> the reason I am asking. I have decided that it should probably say,
> "butt the stock against the FRONT side of the block and against the
> fence and push...". Yet the author still does not explain his
> rationale.
> I can see how using the block and fence help ensure a square cut, but I'm
> curious why that should be expected to do better than the
> gauge and fence alone assuming the mitre guage is square. I saw a
> similar technique used on NYW online tonight (free online episode, 1
> per month here), though I don't recall Norm clamping the block.
> http://www.newyankee.com/online.php
>
> So it all boils down to: Why is it worth using/clamping an extra
> block in place?


The block serves only as a gauge to set the cut location; as you push with
the miter gauge, the stock being cut moves past the block and into the saw
blade. There is no possibility of trapping the free end of the stock
against the fence which would result in very bad things you don't want to
experience.

IOW, following the instructions helps keep your body intact.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:26:00 -0800, charlie b <[email protected]>
wrote:

>This first page illustrates the answer to your question.
>
>http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/KickBack/KickBack2A.html
>
>Might want to start here and go thru the following pages about
>that thing you don't want to experience.
>
>http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/KickBack/KickBack1.html
>
>What you don't know CAN hurt you.
>

Might want to check the table saw, fence ect. Yes I do belive I will.

Thanks Charlie.

Mark