MD

Morris Dovey

31/05/2010 4:02 PM

OT: In today's news

(political passion filtered out)

A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.

It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/


This topic has 174 replies

nn

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 1:20 PM

On Jun 1, 11:57 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> What is tragic is that so many of you, on both sides, are obviously
> convinced that you can form an intelligent opinion based on what the
> media has reported as fact throughout the history of this conflict.
>
> Fools and damn fools ...

Right?

I remember when I used to get really wrapped around the axle on
certain issues, only to find later that what I thought was true simply
wasn't.

Wouldn't back off my stance. >> I << felt like >> I << knew the real
truth, and the people around me didn't understand the world the way I
did.

After all, I watched a lot of news documentaries, right? After all, I
read a lot of op-ed pieces that were totally against my point of view
to keep my mind open, right? After all, I KNEW I had my fact straight
before I started a dialogue, right?

Only to find too many times I had been lied to by the media.

I have no super powers that enable me to be on site to determine the
real truth of any given scenario. I think few do, although most seem
to think they actually possess them.

For me, while I may not like (or like) what the media says, I cannot
corroborate any of their information unless I research....

...other media...

Big help, there.


The internet makes us all experts these days, and sadly, more
intolerant of others because we tend to gravitate to the news we want
to hear. OUR sources are the correct sources.

I prefer reviewing current events as I did last night with ice cold
beer, barbecued pork and fixins, and a great cigar after the meal
under the stars.

I decided long ago there is no way to verify the news media itself.
And with today's spin doctors, I am surprised folks get too excited
with one another these days over "facts".

Who really knows what the truth is these days?

Who has any idea of the truth of goings on the middle east? (Really,
anywhere for that matter...) If anyone does, they should share their
insight to help unravel the knots. Surely a Nobel Prize would be
forthcoming.

Well said, Karl. This is silliness, thankfully marked as OT.

Robert

CS

Charlie Self

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

14/06/2010 2:38 AM

On Jun 1, 1:17=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:41=A0am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [ the usual snipped]
>
> So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> btw...
>
> Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> ...and that's pretty much how I see it.

I don't often agree with Mark, but the value being placed on
Palestinian lives is the value their brother Arabs have placed on
them, the lack of any kind of worthwhile effort by Arabs to lift
brother Arabs out of their problems, while vilifying Zionists and
Israelis in general. Extremist elements hold sway in nearly every Arab
country, or are standing in the wings, salivating over their coming
chance to kill Jews.

When a group has the express purpose of wiping another group from the
face of the earth, when every peace treaty that is signed is nothing
more than a signal to Hamas that it can now get away with a few weeks
of rocket attacks without Israeli retaliation, or with Israel getting
an international bad rap for retaliating, I'd say the problem remains
insoluble. At some point, Arab groups must find a way to live with the
fact that Jews, and the Jewish state, will continue to exist. They
must accept that without trying to change it. Then, maybe, there is a
chance of some peaceful resolution, and everyone will live a life of
reasonable value.

Whether these terrorist scum are a majority or not, they dominate
Middle Eastern Arab society, are supported by major groups in
countries supposedly friendly to the U.S. Can anyone say "Saudi
Arabia" as a starter? Hamas wouldn't exist, nor would the current
Palstinian problem, if the Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians and other
Arab countries had helped locate and fund a homeland for Palestinians.
Instead, they helped fund radical versions of Islam in their own
countries and elsewhere, including the U.S.

I won't see it any peace there. No one alive today will see it. I am
inclined to doubt anyone who ever lives will see it.

MH

"Martin H. Eastburn"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:19 PM

And their God is the same as our God. They just don't believe in the Trinity.
Jesus is a profit to the Jews and Muslims.
Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 5/31/2010 6:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 5/31/2010 6:06 PM, Han wrote:
>> Robatoy<[email protected]> wrote in news:86342eec-f646-4813-9d12-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> On May 31, 5:57 pm, Han<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no one
>>> out
>>>> there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Han
>>>> email address is invalid
>>>
>>> A compromise with two parties with different gods?
>>>
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/magazine/30Mayor-t.html?emc=eta1
>
> Contrary to popular belief, Jews and Muslims do not have "different
> gods". The Koran is very explicit about this. They don't even have
> different names--both "God" and "Allah" are euphemisms for a name that
> is forbidden to be spoken aloud.
>
>

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:36 AM

On Jun 2, 12:27=A0am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:829071a0-559a-4e82-946d-8a1914c2da42@v18g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 1, 8:50 am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> > > I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and
> > > fellow "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza;
> > > and I believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding
> > > supplies and food to the people who needed them.
>
> > > The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and h=
e
> > > said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to delive=
r
> > > its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>
> > The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to
> > Gaza
> > be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> > Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
> > diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
> > however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capabilit=
y
> > to
> > send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
> > > The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" wil=
l
> > > make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
> > > which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
> > > million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
> > > steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>
> > Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
> > Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
> > living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
> > expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
> > suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....
>
> > ---
> > * Qualified: They couldn't vote for a member of the Knesset, but they
> > could
> > elect their own mayors and minor officials.
>
> Come on Bub... you're way smarter than that. The Zionists want that
> Gaza strip. It is very valuable real estate and those pesky
> Palestinians are a thorn in the developers' sides. Besides, it is all
> part of the age-old expansionism goals. To wit: (aka 'follow the
> money'.)
>
> In defining the aims of Zionism, Hebrew scholar Levnoch Osman recently
> said: "In our eternal Book of Books (the Torah), the lofty ethical
> teachings of which are cherished by all mankind, the land of Israel is
> described not as a long, narrow strip of land with wavy, crooked
> borders, but as a state with broad natural borders. God has promised
> to Patriarch Abraham the following:
>
> "I give unto them the land where they have sown their seed, from the
> river of Egypt unto the great river of Euphrates=92 (Genesis 15:18). And
> so, in order to realize the words of this prophecy, the Israeli state
> had to continue, not in the borders it has today but within its broad
> historical boundaries."
>
> And as far back as 1952 Moshe Dayan, the present Israeli defense
> minister, declared:
>
> "Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
> approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
> Israeli empire."
>
> That includes the oilfields.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>
> WOW!! Kind of early to whip out the Zionist card. Say, do they own all th=
e
> Canadian newspapers and banks?

Lobbeeeee!! Must you resort to a Zionist tactic? A failed attempt at
trying to connect anti semitism with the condemnation of the criminal
behaviour of the the state of Israel. Do your homework before whipping
out that smokescreen. (That's more Daneliuk's style, btw.)
There are 6 billion people alive today who had absolutely nothing to
do with what happened to granpa at Bergen-Belsen. There are 6 billion
people alive today who had nothing to do with slavery. I am sick and
fucking tired of being held hostage, paying bills over shit I had
nothing to do with. *I* did not lock up a whole bunch of Japanese in
concentration camps in British Columbia.
There is no doubt that a holocaust happened, but that doesn't give
anybody the right to create a new one in Gaza and stop being an
apologist for what has become a criminal regime. YOU dare talk of
KoolAid?

DB

Dave Balderstone

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 7:31 PM

In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
<[email protected]> wrote:

> (political passion filtered out)
>
> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.

Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
but the 6th did not.

In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
they wanted, didn't they?

--
“The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s
money.” - Margaret Thatcher

DB

Dave Balderstone

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 7:32 PM

In article <[email protected]>, Lee Michaels
<leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, Han
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no one
> >>out
> >>there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
> >
> > Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
> > adversary
> > who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
> > exist.
>
> In addition to that, the real reason why they want unrestricted access to
> Gaza is to smuggle weapons and rockets in to attack Israel. I wonder if all
> the lefties in Europe would feel the same way if they were smuggling in arms
> and explosives to blow up their home town?

Further, where was the international outrage when Egypt detonated
explosives in the smugglers' tunnels recently?

--
“The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s
money.” - Margaret Thatcher

kk

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 10:13 PM

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:12:34 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jun 1, 2:09 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
>> own choices.  They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
>> rather starve.
>
>Live Free Or Die?

Sometimes when you wage war, you die.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 9:13 AM

Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> Read more closely. The events took place 60 miles out, in
> international waters, not within the 12 mile limit in which the
> Israelis /might/ be able to make a legitimate claim for control.

But well within the 200-mile military exclusionary zone recognized by
international law.

>
> A flagged vessel in international waters is considered the sovereign
> territory of the country whose flag it bears, and any action taken
> against it is no different from that same action taken against the
> country whose flag it is.

Absolutely not true. If it were, our customs inspectors could not enter the
vessel and would have to treat it as a foreign embassy.

>
> The ships ran no blockade, and there were no arms as such on the ships
> until the Israeli forces brought them on board. Once a fight starts,
> of course, everything within reach is a weapon.

According to Israeli source, the combined "humanitarian" relief on all the
ships involved in the incident totaled less than 10% of the humanitarian aid
that crosses from Israel into Gaza EACH DAY.

>
> BTW, you might find it informative to Google "USS Liberty" (with
> quotes) and do a bit of reading...

Ah, the Liberty. You mean the electronic-monitoring, armed, warship cruising
in a military exclusion zone? Investigations by both countries did not affix
blame for the incident. Israel did pay reparations and admit "Our bad."

Mighty white of them, you ask me.

Tt

"Thos"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 12:36 AM

Who's doing the woodworking in this thread?
Seriously....
TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE YOU STUPID FUCKERS.....


"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> (political passion filtered out)
>
> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO member
> countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the naval
> forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels and
> cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
>

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 3:19 PM

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:54:30 -0400, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
wrote the following:

>Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 19:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, for the power to dissolve all religions and
>>> the hold they have over idiots of the world...
>>
>> Hey, Larry - we agree on something :-).
>>
> > Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
>
>If you want to quote George Bernard Shaw, perhaps a more appropriate one
>is in order:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eir00rOho&feature=related

Provocative! Some of my favorites:

If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
conclusion. -George Bernard Shaw

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -George Bernard Shaw

Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.
-George Bernard Shaw

Virtue is insufficient temptation. -George Bernard Shaw

--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin

Uu

Upscale

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 11:25 AM

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 11:11:25 -0400, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Oh no, not the bankers... You know Robocop has trouble with bankers.
>(Not to mention gays and women)

No, just like everybody else, he has troubles with assholes like you.
And as far as gays and women go, doesn't it seem strange that you're
the one that continues to mention them. Think about them a bit do you?

LM

"Lee Michaels"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 8:03 PM


"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Han
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no one
>>out
>>there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
>
> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
> adversary
> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
> exist.

In addition to that, the real reason why they want unrestricted access to
Gaza is to smuggle weapons and rockets in to attack Israel. I wonder if all
the lefties in Europe would feel the same way if they were smuggling in arms
and explosives to blow up their home town?


dd

dhall987

in reply to "Lee Michaels" on 31/05/2010 8:03 PM

05/06/2010 9:30 PM

On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 08:44:44 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:45:19 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong the
>>>> spoils.
>>>>
>>>
>>>The law of the jungle still in effect?
>>
>> At the point of war, certainly.
>>
>
>
>Then why are *our* troops worried so much about "collateral" damage?
>And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>And how come I don't own property in Korea?
>
>Max (being rhetorical, of course)
Hmmmm.... did you think we "won" something in Korea?

Mt

"Max"

in reply to "Lee Michaels" on 31/05/2010 8:03 PM

05/06/2010 9:09 PM

"dhall987" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 08:44:44 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:45:19 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong
>>>>> the
>>>>> spoils.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The law of the jungle still in effect?
>>>
>>> At the point of war, certainly.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Then why are *our* troops worried so much about "collateral" damage?
>>And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>>And how come I don't own property in Korea?
>>
>>Max (being rhetorical, of course)
> Hmmmm.... did you think we "won" something in Korea?


Who is in charge in South Korea and why?
Isn't that where Hyundai Heavy Industries is?
And:
Asiana Air
Daewoo
Hankook tires
Kumho
Kia
Samsung
LG Electronics
etc.

I believe the US Army contributed a great deal to the success South Korea
has experienced.
I happened to have contributed a bit myself.

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 5:39 PM

"Han" wrote:

>I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no
>one out
> there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
--------------------------------
Netanyahu, Isreal's GW Bush.

Lew


Sk

Steve

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 8:42 PM

On 2010-05-31 19:51:23 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> said:

> However Israel has cleared stepped on their circumcised dicks.

Thereby bringing this discussion back -- as it should be -- to wood, eh?

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:12 PM

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Han
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
>>intention to come to a solution.
>
> They do.
>
> The trouble, Part I, is that they don't have the *same* solution in mind.
>
> The trouble, Part II, is that the solutions they do have in mind are
> mutually
> incompatible: the Israelis don't appear to want much more than simply to
> be
> left alone,

What? Left alone? To keep expanding their country? To keep building on
Palestinian territory?

> Again, please describe what compromise you imagine to be possible under
> these
> circumstances. Note that "I get everything I want and you get squat" is
> not a
> compromise. Neither is "We'll leave you alone as soon as all of you are
> dead".

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:14 PM

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:02:14 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
> wrote the following:
>
>>(political passion filtered out)
>>
>>A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>
>>It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> I don't agree with anyone on either side, but several things bode well
> for the Israelis:
>
> 1) Israel warned them off and they deliberately ran the blockade.
>
> 2) Israel wanted to make sure that no weapons were delivered to Hamas
> and the deaths prove that the ships were carrying at least some
> weapons.
>
> 3) Israel documented all of this via the media.
>
> Who are these idiots on the ships who attack armed specialists with
> guns, knives, and clubs, anyway? Darwin, here are some more for your
> collection!
>
> That said, I wish we could distance ourselves from Israeli politics
> and let the two countries just duke it out once and for all.
> Y'know, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5LC3xB-RQ
>
> What really bothers me are the tire burnings in Pakistan and other
> world disruptions over this. Oh, for the power to dissolve all
> religions and the hold they have over idiots of the world...

Amen, Brother!!



Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 7:46 AM

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 21:12:34 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Han
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
>>>>intention to come to a solution.
>>>
>>> They do.
>>>
>>> The trouble, Part I, is that they don't have the *same* solution in
>>> mind.
>>>
>>> The trouble, Part II, is that the solutions they do have in mind are
>>> mutually
>>> incompatible: the Israelis don't appear to want much more than simply to
>>> be
>>> left alone,
>>
>>What? Left alone? To keep expanding their country?
>
> If they're attacked again, sure they have every right to claim lands
> gained.
> They've given most back in the false hope of peace, so I'd expect them to
> do
> none of that in the future.

They have an absolute right to defend themselves. But, should the Allied
nations of WWll claim the territory they captured during the war?

>>To keep building on Palestinian territory?
>
> There is no such thing.

In the eye's of a Zionist.

>>> Again, please describe what compromise you imagine to be possible under
>>> these
>>> circumstances. Note that "I get everything I want and you get squat" is
>>> not a
>>> compromise. Neither is "We'll leave you alone as soon as all of you are
>>> dead".
>>

Mm

Markem

in reply to "Max" on 01/06/2010 7:46 AM

14/06/2010 6:34 AM

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 02:55:27 -0700 (PDT), Charlie Self
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 4, 8:16 am, Markem <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 04:43:29 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:50:52 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>>
>> >> Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.
>>
>> >Then what *was* the point?  
>>
>> >Iraq had no WMDs, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq was not a haven
>> >for terrorists - other than the ones in power, and they only terrorized
>> >Iraqis (after mistakenly assuming we said they could have Kuwait).
>>
>> >So the Iraq war was fought for?
>>
>> So we could grind down the terrorist against the US military.
>>
>> Mark
>
>It seems that it encouraged them to expand, rather than grinding them
>down.

Did not say it was well thought out.

Mark

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 7:51 AM

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


> Sigh. It seems true that for some (on all sides) it's all about making a
> lot of noise and the need to be 'right'. As far as I can tell, none of the
> shouting or finger-pointing has improved anything for anyone. YMMV.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

I vote for you, Morris.



Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 10:21 AM

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/1/2010 7:50 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>
>> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to
>> Gaza
>> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> Appearances are deceiving, no?
>
>> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
>> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
>> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability
>> to
>> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
> Let's not include Egypt in this discussion. Start a new thread if you feel
> the need.
>
>> Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
>> Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
>> living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
>> expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
>> suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....
>
> I agree that Israel has managed to do a measurably better job for
> Israelis, but I would expect that given the flow of wealth into the
> country. It's not clear to me that Israel's better results are a
> reflection of better governance.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
>


It *seems* to me that a great deal of the economic success stems from the
use of the Palestinians as cheap labor.

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 10:24 AM

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I guess all of us US citizens who aren't American Indians should start
> packing. After all, they can make the same claim.
>
> --
> Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

What? That our god said the land was ours? Sigh................

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 1:00 PM

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote

> If they don't want to "experience slowly but steadily declining health due
> to insufficient nourishment" they can lock Hamas up or hang them or do
> something else to get them under control. But instead they'd rather
> starve and be blown up than be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th
> century.
>


Exactly. And the same principle applies to the Afghans. Bring our troops
home and let the Afghans solve their own problems.
Ditto Iraq.

YA

"Y?"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 11:40 PM


"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>
>>
>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>> adversary
>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
>>> exist.
>>
>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>
> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a war
> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to us.
>
>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>> state?
>
> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
> Turkey?

Were the Turks given a choice?
What was that "province" called at that time?
Who was living there?

Y

YA

"Y?"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 11:51 PM


"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What is tragic is that so many of you, on both sides, are obviously
> convinced that you can form an intelligent opinion based on what the media
> has reported as fact throughout the history of this conflict.
>
> Fools and damn fools ...
>
> --

Hear hear!

And just as tragic how closely this mirrors the attitude of those party to
this historical conflict

Y.

YA

"Y?"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 12:29 AM


"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>>> adversary
>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
>>>>> exist.
>>>>
>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>
>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>> war and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to
>>> us.
>>>
>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>>>> it
>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>>>> state?
>>>
>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
>>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>>> Turkey?
>>
>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>
> Yes.


What, because they had just lost the war the legue of nations felt sorry for
them and asked nicely??


>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>
> It wasn't Palestine. That's what the Brits called it.


Oh, so not the Romans then?


>> Who was living there?
>
> Mostly nomads.


Bullshit!

Y.

YA

"Y?"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 12:36 AM


"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Y? wrote:
>>>
>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any
>>> trouble with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British
>>> mandate resulting from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now
>>> Israel was a province of Turkey?
>>
>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>
> No. They lost the war. Their "choice" was siding with Germany and Austria
> in the first place.

Yes so the statement that they "didn't have any trouble with it" is a bit
simplistic

>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>
> It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Same as (what is now) Saudi Arabia,
> Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, etc.

Yes plus many more, it was a big empire.
But didn't the Romans have a fair chunk of it earlier on. What did they call
the bit in question.

>> Who was living there?
>
> Subjects of the Ottoman Empire. There were Jews, Muslims, Christians,
> Copts, Marrionites, Druze, and people of other religious persuasions.

Yes, a couple of thousand years worth of settlers.

Y.

YA

"Y?"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 12:56 AM


"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/2/2010 9:40 AM, Y? wrote:
>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>>> adversary
>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
>>>>> exist.
>>>>
>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>
>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>> war
>>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to us.
>>>
>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>>>> it
>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>>>> state?
>>>
>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
>>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>>> Turkey?
>>
>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>
> The same one the Germans had. You don't seem to grasp the concept of
> "lost a war".

I think i do.
Your words were "the Turks didn' thave any trouble with it" I think you
erred.

>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>
> Parts of what is now Israel were spread among the Vilayet of Beirut, the
> Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of Jerusalem.

What was it referred to at the time of WW1.
I know when i asked my Grandfather where he fought he said "bloody
Palestine" son "you don't want to go there"
He was talking literally.

>> Who was living there?
>
> Turks.

Not Ottomans?
Or Palestinians?

Y.



Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 10:18 AM

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote

>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>
> It wasn't Palestine. That's what the Brits called it.
>
>> Who was living there?
>
> Mostly nomads.
>

And you want other people to review *their* history?





YA

"Y?"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 2:30 AM


"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Y? wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any
>>>>> trouble with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British
>>>>> mandate resulting from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now
>>>>> Israel was a province of Turkey?
>>>>
>>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>>
>>> No. They lost the war. Their "choice" was siding with Germany and
>>> Austria in the first place.
>>
>> Yes so the statement that they "didn't have any trouble with it" is a bit
>> simplistic
>>
>>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>>
>>> It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Same as (what is now) Saudi Arabia,
>>> Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, etc.
>>
>> Yes plus many more, it was a big empire.
>> But didn't the Romans have a fair chunk of it earlier on. What did they
>> call the bit in question.
>
> What does it matter, the Romans were not around for WWI.


It doesn't matter. But the Brits, whilst they used it, did not make up the
name Palestine and you know it.


>>>> Who was living there?
>>>
>>> Subjects of the Ottoman Empire. There were Jews, Muslims, Christians,
>>> Copts, Marrionites, Druze, and people of other religious persuasions.
>>
>> Yes, a couple of thousand years worth of settlers.
>
> More than that actually. Probably something like 150,000 years. Changed
> hands more often than a dollar bill. Sometimes in the same year.


Yeah, I herad they were all nomads.

Your obfuscation throughout this thread makes it hard to take you seriously.

Y.


YA

"Y?"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 2:34 AM


"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/2/2010 9:40 AM, Y? wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>>>>> adversary
>>>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>>>> war
>>>>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to
>>>>> us.
>>>>>
>>>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and
>>>>>> sovereign
>>>>>> state?
>>>>>
>>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>>>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate
>>>>> resulting
>>>>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>>>>> Turkey?
>>>>
>>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>>
>>> The same one the Germans had. You don't seem to grasp the concept of
>>> "lost a war".
>>
>> I think i do.
>> Your words were "the Turks didn' thave any trouble with it" I think you
>> erred.
>
> You see the Turks Whining to get it back? How many "Palestinians" have the
> Turks taken in?


Well, by your reconing, all of them. There was no "Palestinians" only Turks.


>>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>>
>>> Parts of what is now Israel were spread among the Vilayet of Beirut, the
>>> Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of Jerusalem.
>>
>> What was it referred to at the time of WW1.
>> I know when i asked my Grandfather where he fought he said "bloody
>> Palestine" son "you don't want to go there"
>> He was talking literally.
>
> Right. Just like I said. That's what the BRITS called it. Note that they
> never Whined about getting it back.


Back from who?


Y.

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 3:02 PM

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/2/2010 2:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>> On 6/1/2010 1:09 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
>>> own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
>>> rather starve.
>>
>> Rather like the soldiers at Valley Forge "choosing" to have cold feet,
>> no?
>
> Yep, was their choice.

In that sense, everything in life is a choice.


Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 4:47 PM

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/2/2010 5:02 PM, Max wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/2/2010 2:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>> On 6/1/2010 1:09 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
>>>>> own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
>>>>> rather starve.
>>>>
>>>> Rather like the soldiers at Valley Forge "choosing" to have cold
>>>> feet, no?
>>>
>>> Yep, was their choice.
>>
>> In that sense, everything in life is a choice.
>
> They chose to fight the British--nobody held a gun to their head.

Exactly, I pay my income tax. No one holds a gun to my head.

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:42 PM

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:47:13 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> wrote the following:
>
>>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 6/2/2010 5:02 PM, Max wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 6/2/2010 2:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/1/2010 1:09 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
>>>>>>> rather starve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather like the soldiers at Valley Forge "choosing" to have cold
>>>>>> feet, no?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, was their choice.
>>>>
>>>> In that sense, everything in life is a choice.
>>>
>>> They chose to fight the British--nobody held a gun to their head.
>>
>>Exactly, I pay my income tax. No one holds a gun to my head.
>
> Perhaps not physically, yet, but if you didn't pay, you know they'd be
> at your door with their shiny new MP-5 or M-16 machine guns in short
> order. ;)
>
> The IRS CI employs 2,700 special agents who are required to "carry and
> use a firearm." according to a Media Matters article.
> http://mediamatters.org/research/201002040042 (first Google)
>
> --
> It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
> the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
> -- Charles Darwin


Ack!! M-16s? Glad you told me.

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:45 PM

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote

> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong the
> spoils.
>

The law of the jungle still in effect?


Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 7:50 AM

Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and
> fellow "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza;
> and I believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding
> supplies and food to the people who needed them.
>
> The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
> said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
> its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.

The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to Gaza
be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.

Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability to
send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.

>
> The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
> make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
> which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
> million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
> steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>

Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....

---
* Qualified: They couldn't vote for a member of the Knesset, but they could
elect their own mayors and minor officials.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:57 PM

On May 31, 10:17=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:02:14 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
> wrote the following:
>
> >(political passion filtered out)
>
> >A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> >member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
> >naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
> >and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> >It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> I don't agree with anyone on either side, but several things bode well
> for the Israelis:
>
> 1) Israel warned them off and they deliberately ran the blockade.

And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?
>
> 2) Israel wanted to make sure that no weapons were delivered to Hamas
> and the deaths prove that the ships were carrying at least some
> weapons.
>
And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?
>
> Who are these idiots on the ships who attack armed specialists with
> guns, knives, and clubs, anyway? =A0Darwin, here are some more for your
> collection!
>

And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 9:21 AM

Robatoy wrote:
>
> Come on Bub... you're way smarter than that. The Zionists want that
> Gaza strip. It is very valuable real estate and those pesky
> Palestinians are a thorn in the developers' sides. Besides, it is all
> part of the age-old expansionism goals. To wit: (aka 'follow the
> money'.)

Are you INSANE? Israel occupied Gaza and Sinai as a result of the 1967 war.
In the fullness of time, Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt and tried to
include Gaza. Egypt said "Not by the hair of my chnney-chin-chin. We don't
WANT Gaza back. It's full of Palestinians!"

>
> And as far back as 1952 Moshe Dayan, the present Israeli defense
> minister, declared:
>
> "Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
> approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
> Israeli empire."
>
> That includes the oilfields.

Oilfieds? In Gaza? I know you're as mad as a hatter!

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:39 AM

On Jun 2, 8:21=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com..=
.
> > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> They made their choice. =A0Now they get to live with it.
>
> > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > btw...
>
> > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?

Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
oppressor in WW2?

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 4:12 PM

On Jun 1, 2:09=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
> own choices. =A0They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
> rather starve.

Live Free Or Die?

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 8:19 AM

On Jun 1, 8:50=A0am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> > I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and
> > fellow "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza;
> > and I believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding
> > supplies and food to the people who needed them.
>
> > The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
> > said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
> > its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>
> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to Ga=
za
> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability =
to
> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
>
>
> > The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
> > make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
> > which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
> > million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
> > steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>
> Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
> Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
> living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
> expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
> suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....
>
> ---
> * Qualified: They couldn't vote for a member of the Knesset, but they cou=
ld
> elect their own mayors and minor officials.

Come on Bub... you're way smarter than that. The Zionists want that
Gaza strip. It is very valuable real estate and those pesky
Palestinians are a thorn in the developers' sides. Besides, it is all
part of the age-old expansionism goals. To wit: (aka 'follow the
money'.)

In defining the aims of Zionism, Hebrew scholar Levnoch Osman recently
said: "In our eternal Book of Books (the Torah), the lofty ethical
teachings of which are cherished by all mankind, the land of Israel is
described not as a long, narrow strip of land with wavy, crooked
borders, but as a state with broad natural borders. God has promised
to Patriarch Abraham the following:

"I give unto them the land where they have sown their seed, from the
river of Egypt unto the great river of Euphrates=92 (Genesis 15:18). And
so, in order to realize the words of this prophecy, the Israeli state
had to continue, not in the borders it has today but within its broad
historical boundaries."

And as far back as 1952 Moshe Dayan, the present Israeli defense
minister, declared:

"Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
Israeli empire."

That includes the oilfields.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 5:57 AM

On Jun 1, 8:51=A0am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On May 31, 10:17 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:02:14 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
> >> wrote the following:
>
> >>> (political passion filtered out)
>
> >>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> >>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by
> >>> the naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the
> >>> vessels and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers
> >>> imprisoned.
>
> >>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> >> I don't agree with anyone on either side, but several things bode
> >> well for the Israelis:
>
> >> 1) Israel warned them off and they deliberately ran the blockade.
>
> > And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?
>
> >> 2) Israel wanted to make sure that no weapons were delivered to Hamas
> >> and the deaths prove that the ships were carrying at least some
> >> weapons.
>
> > And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?
>
> >> Who are these idiots on the ships who attack armed specialists with
> >> guns, knives, and clubs, anyway? Darwin, here are some more for your
> >> collection!
>
> > And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?
>
> Sure. Don't you?

If I could only shake the implications of Mosad's motto.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 3:03 PM

On May 31, 5:57=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't agree with either point of view. =A0It's just too bad that no one=
out
> there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
>
> --
> Best regards
> Han
> email address is invalid

A compromise with two parties with different gods?

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 7:17 PM

On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:02:14 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote the following:

>(political passion filtered out)
>
>A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
>It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.

I don't agree with anyone on either side, but several things bode well
for the Israelis:

1) Israel warned them off and they deliberately ran the blockade.

2) Israel wanted to make sure that no weapons were delivered to Hamas
and the deaths prove that the ships were carrying at least some
weapons.

3) Israel documented all of this via the media.

Who are these idiots on the ships who attack armed specialists with
guns, knives, and clubs, anyway? Darwin, here are some more for your
collection!

That said, I wish we could distance ourselves from Israeli politics
and let the two countries just duke it out once and for all.
Y'know, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5LC3xB-RQ

What really bothers me are the tire burnings in Pakistan and other
world disruptions over this. Oh, for the power to dissolve all
religions and the hold they have over idiots of the world...


--
A well-informed mind is the best security against the contagion of
folly and of vice. The vacant mind is ever on the watch for relief,
and ready to plunge into error, to escape from the languor of idleness.
-- Ann Radcliffe

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:06 AM

On Jun 2, 12:35=A0am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [ the usual snipped]
>
> So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> btw...
>
> Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Through the Kool Aid...

Maybe a little KoolAid, but that's better than being completely
fukking blind.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 2:29 PM

On May 31, 5:02=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> (political passion filtered out)
>
> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> --
> Morris Doveyhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

NATO can't very well attack Israel as The USA will stand by Israel no
matter what...wait...The US is in NATO..... in that case, a nasty
letter and maybe a wag of the finger?

What will the Mainstream Media do?

Now, if anybody has the temerity to condemn Israel, they'll be
labelled anti-semetic.
Israel is already publishing pictures of the bad man with a sword who
threatened the IDF soldier...at 4am...wait that picture was taken in
daylight..okay, next lie, please.

My solution? STOP sending those Zionist bastards foreign aid and
modern weapons. Many, many Jews aren't in agreement with what the
State Of Israel has become either. ("You can't force the Messiah to
come!")

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

10/06/2010 9:04 AM

On May 31, 5:02=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> (political passion filtered out)
>
> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> --
> Morris Doveyhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=3D5389883

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

04/06/2010 9:34 PM

Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> Me too, but I think any of us could have figured out a better way to
> accomplish that end - such as stopping the ships 11 miles out and
> requiring inspection of each ship before either allowing it to proceed
> to port or turning it back (for cause). After that point they could
> have exercised any reasonable force needed to prevent an unauthorized
> ship from proceeding.

Somebody decided that the boarding should take place at night. Had the
Israelis waited until the ship was much closer, dawn would have passed.

>
> I have no tolerance for attacking an American vessel in international
> waters, towing it to port, and imprisoning crew and passengers - and
> it doesn't much matter to me whether the attackers were flying the
> jolly roger or the Shield of David.

How did you feel about the Mayaguez Incident? Or the U.S.S. Pueblo?

Or even the Cuban missile blockade?

>
> I'm not unsympathetic to Israel's problems, but really wish they'd
> start trying to solve them in ways that doesn't make them worse - and
> the same for the Palestinians.

Me too. Israel should learn from history. I don't think there's ever been a
resolved conflict that was resolved by anything less than vanquishing the
opponent.

Those that were "settled" by negotiation remain unsettled to this day:
Pakistan-India, North & South Korea, Greek Cyprus vs Turkish Cyprus,
Northern Aggressors and the Confederacy, etc.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 9:31 AM

Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
> That is so pathetic. They are basing *their* claim on *their* holy
> book. Funny how it supports *their* view.
>
> I guess all of us US citizens who aren't American Indians should start
> packing. After all, they can make the same claim.

No they can't. The American Indians don't have a book.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

11/07/2010 6:34 PM

Morris Dovey wrote:
> (political passion filtered out)
>
> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by
> the naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the
> vessels and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers
> imprisoned.
> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.

NATO has never picked on anybody that could defeat it. Originally designed
as a speed bump for Russian Tanks in the Fulda Gap, it is now a sinecure for
old pseudo-military farts.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:30 PM

J. Clarke wrote:
>
> Huh? The Patriot went into service in the US in 1981. The first test
> of the Arrow was in 1990 and it didn't go operational until 2000, at
> which time the Patriot had been in service for nearly 20 years. You
> seem to be conflating two different missiles that do similar jobs.
>

The "Arrow" was built on the Patriot platform, then signifcantly upgraded to
handle incoming ballistic and non-ballistic missiles. The original Patriot
was a grount-to-air device, unsuited for modern cruise missiles - the
upgrades devised by the Israelis improved the device significantly.

Likewise, the Israelis invented the Sabot anti-tank round and retrofitted
surplus NATO 105mm cannons on WWII Sherman tanks making the Sherman capable
of knocking out the most sophisticated Russian tank outfitted with ceramic
armor.

NATO then began buying anti-tank Sabot munitions from Israel.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 7:51 AM

Robatoy wrote:
> On May 31, 10:17 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:02:14 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
>> wrote the following:
>>
>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>
>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by
>>> the naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the
>>> vessels and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers
>>> imprisoned.
>>
>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>
>> I don't agree with anyone on either side, but several things bode
>> well for the Israelis:
>>
>> 1) Israel warned them off and they deliberately ran the blockade.
>
> And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?
>>
>> 2) Israel wanted to make sure that no weapons were delivered to Hamas
>> and the deaths prove that the ships were carrying at least some
>> weapons.
>>
> And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?
>>
>> Who are these idiots on the ships who attack armed specialists with
>> guns, knives, and clubs, anyway? Darwin, here are some more for your
>> collection!
>>
>
> And you believe that because the Israelis said so, right?

Sure. Don't you?

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:18 PM

Max wrote:
>
> What? Left alone? To keep expanding their country? To keep
> building on Palestinian territory?

Reminder: Israel is the only country in the region to give back land won by
force of arms. They gave back Sinai and the West Bank. They tried to give
Gaza back to the Egyptians, but the Egyptians said "No thanks, it's full of
Palestinians."


MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:41 PM

Morris Dovey wrote:

> (political passion filtered out)
>
> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>


Yep, just a bunch of peace-loving NATO civilians out for a Sunday sail:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded>

Oh, they also just happened to discuss a few thinks like, oh, jihad and
martyrdom, but then, I'm sure their intentions were fully peaceful. After
all, what's a few "death to the Jews!" cheers before a good boat outing?

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded>

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

pp

phorbin

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 2:40 PM

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...


> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an adversary
> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even exist.

Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.

My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
state?

pp

phorbin

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:56 PM

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...


> > My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
> > take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
> > state?
>
> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
> Turkey?

Irrelevant.

Address the question.

Why not use your own state as the one coopted to become a foreign nation
and then address the question.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

14/06/2010 6:23 PM

Han wrote:
>>
> I agree with Charlie's analysis, and share his lack of hope, barring
> an unlikely hit of enlightenment. Also, the best way to divert
> internal attention from internal problems is to identify an outside
> "enemy". However, the Israelis have IMNSHO recently made some bad
> miscalculations, giving them much more grief than was necessary.

Exactamundo!

Eric Hoffer, in "The True Believer," made the point that a mass movement can
exist without a god, but it will always fail without a devil. All mass
movements must have something to hate.

NN

"Nonny"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 8:37 PM


"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
. Oh, for the power to dissolve all
> religions and the hold they have over idiots of the world...
>

Nonny

--
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 11:06 PM

Robatoy wrote:

> On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [ the usual snipped]
>
> So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>

You realize that Israel gave up significant areas of that territory, left
the residents with greenhouses and other means of making a good living?
What happened? The terrorists carried on the intifada, and continued to
attack Israel.

What is your negotiating position when the other side says that it's
position is that it wants your state destroyed and your people driven into
the sea? What is the compromise you make?

It seems pretty simple, if the people in Gaza would stop lobbing rockets
into Israel and sending in suicide bombers, the Israelis would lift the
blockade. Condone and give cover to terrorists, and you are on your own.


>
> btw...
>
> Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> ...and that's pretty much how I see it.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

Hn

Han

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:57 PM

I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no one out
there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

03/06/2010 8:44 AM

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:45:19 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong the
>>> spoils.
>>>
>>
>>The law of the jungle still in effect?
>
> At the point of war, certainly.
>


Then why are *our* troops worried so much about "collateral" damage?
And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
And how come I don't own property in Korea?

Max (being rhetorical, of course)

Mt

"Max"

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

03/06/2010 11:24 AM

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:8f517b8c-ca46-46bb-b103-9eb8d5258254@m33g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 3, 9:44 am, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:45:19 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> >>"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >>> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong
> >>> the
> >>> spoils.

Civilization hasn't really progressed very far have we.

> >>The law of the jungle still in effect?
>
> > At the point of war, certainly.
>
>> Then why are *our* troops worried so much about "collateral" damage?

>Because the politicians have decided not to wage war, rather bow to
>the PC press.

>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?

>Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.

Well, you've obviously missed the point. If the "law of the Jungle"
prevails, the *point* is if we "won" the war why don't we get the booty.
("To the victor belong the spoils") Never mind whatever the reason was for
us being in Iraq in the first place.

> And how come I don't own property in Korea?

>Because you didn't buy it.

No. Because I couldn't get financing on the Gi bill.

> Max (being rhetorical, of course)


Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

05/06/2010 10:46 AM

On Jun 5, 1:06=A0pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:50:52 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>
> >> Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.
>
> > Then what *was* the point?
>
> > Iraq had no WMDs, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq was not a have=
n
> > for terrorists - other than the ones in power, and they only terrorized
> > Iraqis (after mistakenly assuming we said they could have Kuwait).
>
> > So the Iraq war was fought for?
>
> Bush =3D Christian. Iraq =3D Muslim. Sound familiar?

Bush =3D Dry drunk. Cheney =3D CEO of Halliburton. Sound familiar?

kk

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

03/06/2010 9:50 AM

On Jun 3, 9:44=A0am, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:45:19 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> >>"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >>> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong =
the
> >>> spoils.
>
> >>The law of the jungle still in effect?
>
> > At the point of war, certainly.
>
> Then why are *our* troops worried so much about "collateral" damage?

Because the politicians have decided not to wage war, rather bow to
the PC press.

> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?

Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.

> And how come I don't own property in Korea?

Because you didn't buy it.

> Max (being rhetorical, of course)

kk

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

02/06/2010 10:51 PM

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:45:19 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong the
>> spoils.
>>
>
>The law of the jungle still in effect?

At the point of war, certainly.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

04/06/2010 8:07 AM

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:50:52 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>>
>> Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.
>
> Then what *was* the point?
>
> Iraq had no WMDs, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq was not a
> haven for terrorists - other than the ones in power, and they only
> terrorized Iraqis (after mistakenly assuming we said they could have
> Kuwait).
>
> So the Iraq war was fought for?

For our lands, for our families, for our freedoms. We fought for honor's
sake, for duty's sake, For glory's sake.

"Just there the barbarians huddle, sheer terror gripping tight their hearts
with icy fingers... knowing full well what merciless horrors they suffered
at the swords and spears of three hundred. Yet they stare now across the
plain at TEN THOUSAND Spartans commanding thirty thousand free Greeks!
HA-OOH!


"The enemy outnumber us a paltry three to one, good odds for any Greek. This
day we rescue a world from mysticism and tyranny and usher in a future
brighter than anything we can imagine."

Cc

"CW"

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

05/06/2010 10:06 AM


"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:50:52 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>>
>> Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.
>
> Then what *was* the point?
>
> Iraq had no WMDs, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq was not a haven
> for terrorists - other than the ones in power, and they only terrorized
> Iraqis (after mistakenly assuming we said they could have Kuwait).
>
> So the Iraq war was fought for?


Bush = Christian. Iraq = Muslim. Sound familiar?

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

04/06/2010 8:03 AM

Max wrote:
>>>
>>> The law of the jungle still in effect?
>>
>> At the point of war, certainly.
>>
>
>
> Then why are *our* troops worried so much about "collateral" damage?
> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
> And how come I don't own property in Korea?
>

Because our politicians are a bunch of pussies.

The VC tried the trick of sending children toward our lines with armed
grenades in their hands. After our troops wasted a few hundred kids, the
mothers retaliated by withholding sex from the men and the VC quit that
silliness.

kk

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

03/06/2010 10:52 AM

On Jun 3, 12:24=A0pm, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:8f517b8c-ca46-46bb-b103-9eb8d5258254@m33g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 3, 9:44 am, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:45:19 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > >>> There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belon=
g
> > >>> the
> > >>> spoils.
>
> Civilization hasn't =A0really progressed very far have we.

Civilization has changed. Humans haven't.

> > >>The law of the jungle still in effect?
>
> > > At the point of war, certainly.
>
> >> Then why are *our* troops worried so much about "collateral" damage?
> >Because the politicians have decided not to wage war, rather bow to
> >the PC press.
> >> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
> >Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.
>
> Well, you've obviously missed the point. =A0If the "law of the Jungle"
> prevails, the *point* is if we "won" the war why don't we get the booty.
> ("To the victor belong the spoils") =A0 Never mind whatever the reason wa=
s for
> us being in Iraq in the first place.

Correction: your "point" ignored. Because the "booty" wasn't the
point of the exercise.

> > And how come I don't own property in Korea?
> >Because you didn't buy it.
>
> No. Because I couldn't get financing on the Gi bill.

Try Fannie Mae, next time.

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to Han on 31/05/2010 9:57 PM

04/06/2010 4:43 AM

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:50:52 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>
> Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.

Then what *was* the point?

Iraq had no WMDs, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq was not a haven
for terrorists - other than the ones in power, and they only terrorized
Iraqis (after mistakenly assuming we said they could have Kuwait).

So the Iraq war was fought for?

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Hn

Han

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 10:06 PM

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:86342eec-f646-4813-9d12-
[email protected]:

> On May 31, 5:57 pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't agree with either point of view.  It's just too bad that no one
> out
>> there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>> Han
>> email address is invalid
>
> A compromise with two parties with different gods?
>

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/magazine/30Mayor-t.html?emc=eta1

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Hn

Han

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 1:11 AM

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, Han
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no
>>>one out
>>>there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
>>
>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>> adversary
>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to
>> even exist.
>
> In addition to that, the real reason why they want unrestricted access
> to Gaza is to smuggle weapons and rockets in to attack Israel. I
> wonder if all the lefties in Europe would feel the same way if they
> were smuggling in arms and explosives to blow up their home town?

IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
intention to come to a solution. I would dearly love to see that happen,
but my lifespan is limited <grin>. I am afraid my teeth won't bother me
any more before that solution is achieved.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Hn

Han

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

14/06/2010 10:25 AM

Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote in news:0b1fb915-e399-4637-
[email protected]:

> On Jun 1, 1:17 am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> [ the usual snipped]
>>
>> So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
>> starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>>
>> Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>>
>> As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>>
>> btw...
>>
>> Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
>> criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
>> when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
>> the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>>
>> ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> I don't often agree with Mark, but the value being placed on
> Palestinian lives is the value their brother Arabs have placed on
> them, the lack of any kind of worthwhile effort by Arabs to lift
> brother Arabs out of their problems, while vilifying Zionists and
> Israelis in general. Extremist elements hold sway in nearly every Arab
> country, or are standing in the wings, salivating over their coming
> chance to kill Jews.
>
> When a group has the express purpose of wiping another group from the
> face of the earth, when every peace treaty that is signed is nothing
> more than a signal to Hamas that it can now get away with a few weeks
> of rocket attacks without Israeli retaliation, or with Israel getting
> an international bad rap for retaliating, I'd say the problem remains
> insoluble. At some point, Arab groups must find a way to live with the
> fact that Jews, and the Jewish state, will continue to exist. They
> must accept that without trying to change it. Then, maybe, there is a
> chance of some peaceful resolution, and everyone will live a life of
> reasonable value.
>
> Whether these terrorist scum are a majority or not, they dominate
> Middle Eastern Arab society, are supported by major groups in
> countries supposedly friendly to the U.S. Can anyone say "Saudi
> Arabia" as a starter? Hamas wouldn't exist, nor would the current
> Palstinian problem, if the Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians and other
> Arab countries had helped locate and fund a homeland for Palestinians.
> Instead, they helped fund radical versions of Islam in their own
> countries and elsewhere, including the U.S.
>
> I won't see it any peace there. No one alive today will see it. I am
> inclined to doubt anyone who ever lives will see it.
>
I agree with Charlie's analysis, and share his lack of hope, barring an
unlikely hit of enlightenment. Also, the best way to divert internal
attention from internal problems is to identify an outside "enemy".
However, the Israelis have IMNSHO recently made some bad miscalculations,
giving them much more grief than was necessary.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 10:23 PM

Morris Dovey wrote:

> On 5/31/2010 11:59 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/31/2010 8:31 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>>> In article<[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>>>
>>>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by
>>>>> the naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the
>>>>> vessels and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers
>>>>> imprisoned.
>>>>>
>>>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
>>>> but the 6th did not.
>>>>
>>>> In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
>>>> they wanted, didn't they?
>>>
>>> I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and fellow
>>> "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza; and I
>>> believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding supplies and
>>> food to the people who needed them.
>>>
>>> The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
>>> said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
>>> its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>>>
>>> The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
>>> make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
>>> which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
>>> million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
>>> steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>>>
>>> My opinion is that one Holocaust is already too many...
>>>
>>> ...and that opinion comes without a need to attribute motivations to any
>>> of the participants.
>>
>> Your friend may have had good intentions, but not everyone involved in
>> these "humanitarian" shipments shares those intentions.
>
> That's probably true, but I can only speak from first hand knowledge of
> one person who, I believe, did have good intentions toward both Israelis
> and Palestinians - and thought that his presence on an American-flagged
> ship might help get humanitarian assistance to ordinary (non-combatant)
> people in need.
>
>>
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_BTmbX6v0Q&playnext_from=TL&videos=IpxVzvG__WY&feature=sub>
>> If it were my territory being bombarded by rockets from Gaza, I'd be
>> pretty intent on making sure that supplies going through were pretty well
>> screened.
>
> Me too, but I think any of us could have figured out a better way to
> accomplish that end - such as stopping the ships 11 miles out and
> requiring inspection of each ship before either allowing it to proceed
> to port or turning it back (for cause). After that point they could have
> exercised any reasonable force needed to prevent an unauthorized ship
> from proceeding.
>

From the accounts I've read, they tried this first. One of the ships (the
one upon which they landed) did not comply. The Israelis (again by both
their account and video) then launched a landing on the ship. The soldiers
landing were armed with paintball guns in anticipation of meeting civil
disobedience. Instead (and as born out by the videos), the were attacked
with knives, clubs, and pipes. Only after coming under attack to the point
of mortal danger did they resort to the use of sidearms. The videos seem to
bear the Israeli account out.


> I have no tolerance for attacking an American vessel in international
> waters, towing it to port, and imprisoning crew and passengers - and it
> doesn't much matter to me whether the attackers were flying the jolly
> roger or the Shield of David.
>

It would have been better had the ships been allowed to enter the waters
off of Gaza so that Israel could then have been accused of violating their
territory? The intent of the ships was clear and their intent to circumvent
the blockade was clear.

> I'm not unsympathetic to Israel's problems, but really wish they'd start
> trying to solve them in ways that doesn't make them worse - and the same
> for the Palestinians.
>

Letting ships that could be carrying arms (and have done so in the past)
run a blockade intended to prevent exactly those kinds of shipments doesn't
seem like excessive force.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

10/06/2010 9:05 AM

On Jun 10, 12:04=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 31, 5:02=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > (political passion filtered out)
>
> > A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> > member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
> > naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
> > and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> > It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> > --
> > Morris Doveyhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
> http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=3D5389883

oops... wrong thread.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

04/06/2010 8:04 AM

On Jun 4, 2:54=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Jun 2, 3:48=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Well said, Karl. =A0This is silliness, thankfully marked as OT.
>
> > You're welcome. :)
>
> You're a class guy, Morris. =A0Actually the only reason I skimmed this
> thread. =A0I don't mind a well reasoned measured pondering from folks,
> which is your hallmark.

I agree completely.

>
> I just can't stand the shrill screaming of the know-it-alls when they
> get tuned up.
>
> That's why I stay out of 99% of these. =A0If I hadn't seen that spark of
> cynical goodness from the Swinger, I wouldn't have posted at all. =A0His
> boyish charm is just too much to resist, dontja know...
>

*eagerly awaiting Swing's response....*


r

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 10:17 PM

On Jun 1, 12:41=A0am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

[ the usual snipped]

So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?

Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?

As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?


btw...

Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."

...and that's pretty much how I see it.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 9:05 AM

Y? wrote:
>>
>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any
>> trouble with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British
>> mandate resulting from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now
>> Israel was a province of Turkey?
>
> Were the Turks given a choice?

No. They lost the war. Their "choice" was siding with Germany and Austria in
the first place.

> What was that "province" called at that time?

It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Same as (what is now) Saudi Arabia,
Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, etc.

> Who was living there?

Subjects of the Ottoman Empire. There were Jews, Muslims, Christians,
Copts, Marrionites, Druze, and people of other religious persuasions.

CS

Charlie Self

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/07/2010 1:03 AM

On Jun 1, 9:46=A0am, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 31 May 2010 21:12:34 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> >>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>> In article <[email protected]>, Han
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>>>IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
> >>>>intention to come to a solution.
>
> >>> They do.
>
> >>> The trouble, Part I, is that they don't have the *same* solution in
> >>> mind.
>
> >>> The trouble, Part II, is that the solutions they do have in mind are
> >>> mutually
> >>> incompatible: the Israelis don't appear to want much more than simply=
to
> >>> be
> >>> left alone,
>
> >>What? =A0Left alone? =A0To keep expanding their country?
>
> > If they're attacked again, sure they have every right to claim lands
> > gained.
> > They've given most back in the false hope of peace, so I'd expect them =
to
> > do
> > none of that in the future.
>
> They have an absolute right to defend themselves. =A0But, should the Alli=
ed
> nations of WWll claim the territory they captured during the war?
>
> >>To keep building on Palestinian territory?
>
> > There is no such thing.
>
> In the eye's of a Zionist.
>
> >>> Again, please describe what compromise you imagine to be possible und=
er
> >>> these
> >>> circumstances. Note that "I get everything I want and you get squat" =
is
> >>> not a
> >>> compromise. Neither is "We'll leave you alone as soon as all of you a=
re
> >>> dead".

In the eyes of history.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 7:39 AM

On Jun 2, 10:21=A0am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> > Come on Bub... you're way smarter than that. The Zionists want that
> > Gaza strip. It is very valuable real estate and those pesky
> > Palestinians are a thorn in the developers' sides. Besides, it is all
> > part of the age-old expansionism goals. To wit: (aka 'follow the
> > money'.)
>
> Are you INSANE? Israel occupied Gaza and Sinai as a result of the 1967 wa=
r.
> In the fullness of time, Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt and tried to
> include Gaza. Egypt said "Not by the hair of my chnney-chin-chin. We don'=
t
> WANT Gaza back. It's full of Palestinians!"
>
>
>
> > And as far back as 1952 Moshe Dayan, the present Israeli defense
> > minister, declared:
>
> > "Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
> > approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
> > Israeli empire."
>
> > That includes the oilfields.
>
> Oilfieds? In Gaza? I know you're as mad as a hatter!

You are intelligent enough not to have to resort to taking one of my
sentences out of context.
The oilfields I referred to are those within the 'natural borders' of
(greater) Israel as mentioned in a paragraph of mine which you
conveniently omitted.
Do try to behave like an honest shill, mmk?

nn

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

05/06/2010 12:14 AM

On Jun 4, 9:12=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> charm is a given. ;)

Oh yeah, baby!

:^)

Robert

nn

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 11:54 PM

On Jun 2, 3:48=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Well said, Karl. =A0This is silliness, thankfully marked as OT.
>
> You're welcome. :)

You're a class guy, Morris. Actually the only reason I skimmed this
thread. I don't mind a well reasoned measured pondering from folks,
which is your hallmark.

I just can't stand the shrill screaming of the know-it-alls when they
get tuned up.

That's why I stay out of 99% of these. If I hadn't seen that spark of
cynical goodness from the Swinger, I wouldn't have posted at all. His
boyish charm is just too much to resist, dontja know...

;^)

Robert

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:58 AM

On Jun 2, 11:52=A0am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:f5ea494c-0daa-4b96-ac3c-729296e30bf8@a20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 11:33 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:fe28926b-2d8a-472c-b744-bf233128b609@z33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com..=
.
> > On Jun 2, 9:49 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > >news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com=
...
> > > On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > > > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > >news:[email protected]=
.com...
> > > > > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > > > > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > > > > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> > > > They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>
> > > > > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > > > > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> > > > Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > > > > btw...
>
> > > > > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > > > > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is
> > > > > crossed
> > > > > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example=
by
> > > > > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > > > > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> > > > So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?
>
> > > Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
> > > oppressor in WW2?
>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> > > Name a non-oppresive arab state.
>
> > By that logic, Israel is trying to free the oppressed arabs?
> > Interesting twist, that.
>
> > I guess that explains The Wall. It was put up to give the Palestinians
> > freedom?
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> > Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?
>
> You mean more or less oppressive than Israel?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's a simple question. Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?

Every 'state' is oppressive in some form or another. By that
yardstick, there are no 'non-oppressive' states, arab or otherwise.
So to answer your question, no, I cannot name a non-oppressive arab
state.

Now explain how this helps this conversation.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:42 AM

On Jun 2, 11:33=A0am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:fe28926b-2d8a-472c-b744-bf233128b609@z33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 9:49 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com..=
.
> > On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > >news:[email protected]=
om...
> > > > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > > > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > > > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> > > They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>
> > > > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > > > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> > > Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > > > btw...
>
> > > > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > > > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is cros=
sed
> > > > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example b=
y
> > > > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > > > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> > > So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?
>
> > Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
> > oppressor in WW2?
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> > Name a non-oppresive arab state.
>
> By that logic, Israel is trying to free the oppressed arabs?
> Interesting twist, that.
>
> I guess that explains The Wall. It was put up to give the Palestinians
> freedom?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?

You mean more or less oppressive than Israel?

lt

"lennn99"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

12/07/2010 10:40 AM

after reflection NATO desired to give that country more aid and are
thinking about giving it a medal!

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>> (political passion filtered out)
>>
>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by
>> the naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the
>> vessels and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers
>> imprisoned.
>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> NATO has never picked on anybody that could defeat it. Originally designed
> as a speed bump for Russian Tanks in the Fulda Gap, it is now a sinecure
> for old pseudo-military farts.
>

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 7:00 AM

On Jun 2, 9:49=A0am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com=
...
> > > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> > They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>
> > > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> > Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > > btw...
>
> > > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crosse=
d
> > > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> > > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> > So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?
>
> Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
> oppressor in WW2?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> Name a non-oppresive arab state.

By that logic, Israel is trying to free the oppressed arabs?
Interesting twist, that.

I guess that explains The Wall. It was put up to give the Palestinians
freedom?

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 12:58 PM

On Mon, 31 May 2010 21:59:48 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote the following:

>Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2010 8:31 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>>
>>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>>>
>>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>>
>>> Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
>>> but the 6th did not.
>>>
>>> In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
>>> they wanted, didn't they?
>>
>> I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and fellow
>> "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza; and I
>> believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding supplies and
>> food to the people who needed them.
>>
>> The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
>> said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
>> its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>>
>> The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
>> make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
>> which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
>> million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
>> steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>>
>> My opinion is that one Holocaust is already too many...
>>
>> ...and that opinion comes without a need to attribute motivations to any
>> of the participants.
>>
>
> Your friend may have had good intentions, but not everyone involved in
>these "humanitarian" shipments shares those intentions.

As evidenced by guns, knives, and clubs on a "humanitarian" convoy
ship.


><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_BTmbX6v0Q&playnext_from=TL&videos=IpxVzvG__WY&feature=sub>
>If it were my territory being bombarded by rockets from Gaza, I'd be pretty
>intent on making sure that supplies going through were pretty well screened.

According to one source, the number of rockets and mortars landing on
Israeli territory from Gaza since 2001 is 10,048. That's about ten K
more than I'd have tolerated, were I Just Another Yahoo, I mean
Netanyahu.

Those 2 countries need to do one of two things: Decide to have peace
and do it, or decide to have war and get it over with.

--
A well-informed mind is the best security against the contagion of
folly and of vice. The vacant mind is ever on the watch for relief,
and ready to plunge into error, to escape from the languor of idleness.
-- Ann Radcliffe

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 7:51 AM

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 21:31:57 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]>
wrote the following:

>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>> What really bothers me are the tire burnings in Pakistan and other
>> world disruptions over this. Oh, for the power to dissolve all
>> religions and the hold they have over idiots of the world...
>
>All you got to do to get disruptions from the Pakis and other usual suspects
>is announce world wide that Lamb's ran out of Pistachio ice cream. Bastards!

Either A) you've been drinking. or B) you're discussing something of
an entirely local nature which is not known to any of us outsiders.
Whassa "Lamb's" and what does pistachio ice cream have to do with
anything?

--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:37 PM

On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 11:21:03 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote the following:

>On 6/2/2010 9:59 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Absolutely NOT irrelevant, Morris. That she shrugs about life and
>> death, saying "We either make it or we become martyrs." is of far more
>> relevance to the world than the little Jew/Arab land grab in progress.
>
>Umm - ok, it's about as relevant as earlier American spoutings for
>killing /all/ the krouts, japs, dagos, chinks,...

Yeah, pointless but telling.


>...and, frankly, I'd a lot rather people let off steam shouting than
>doing things that can't be undone/forgotten.

"Like pressing the little red button and letting whomever's God sort
'em out?" he queried, mildly. Thermonuclear arms: A li'l something
for everybody! <bseg>


>> I sure wish the people of Islam would clean up their fundamentalist
>> mess. (Ditto the Christians, ad nauseum.)
>
>Yeah, me too, but it's much easier said than done - and unfortunately
>it's always somebody _else_ who needs to clean up their mess.

Well, I _did_ include "our" xtians, the more predominant religious
fidiots in the USA.

--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin

sD

[email protected] (Doug Miller)

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 10:58 PM

In article <[email protected]>, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no one out
>there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.

Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an adversary
who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even exist.

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 11:06 PM

On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:03:57 -0700, Robatoy wrote:

> On May 31, 5:57 pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't agree with either point of view.  It's just too bad that no one
>> out there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>> Han
>> email address is invalid
>
> A compromise with two parties with different gods?

You got that right. "This land is MINE because God gave it to me!" And
it'll never end till one or both sides are all dead.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 7:51 PM

On 5/31/2010 5:02 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> (political passion filtered out)
>
> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>
> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.

Probably by issuing a press release stating that the incident meets
neither the Article 5 nor the Article 6 definitions of an attack against
a NATO member.

However Israel has cleared stepped on their circumcised dicks.


JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 7:57 PM

On 5/31/2010 6:06 PM, Han wrote:
> Robatoy<[email protected]> wrote in news:86342eec-f646-4813-9d12-
> [email protected]:
>
>> On May 31, 5:57 pm, Han<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I don't agree with either point of view. It's just too bad that no one
>> out
>>> there wants to compromise to the advantage of all.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards
>>> Han
>>> email address is invalid
>>
>> A compromise with two parties with different gods?
>>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/magazine/30Mayor-t.html?emc=eta1

Contrary to popular belief, Jews and Muslims do not have "different
gods". The Koran is very explicit about this. They don't even have
different names--both "God" and "Allah" are euphemisms for a name that
is forbidden to be spoken aloud.

sD

[email protected] (Doug Miller)

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 1:23 AM

In article <[email protected]>, Han <[email protected]> wrote:

>IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
>intention to come to a solution.

They do.

The trouble, Part I, is that they don't have the *same* solution in mind.

The trouble, Part II, is that the solutions they do have in mind are mutually
incompatible: the Israelis don't appear to want much more than simply to be
left alone, whereas Hamas has the explicit goal of exterminating Israel.

Again, please describe what compromise you imagine to be possible under these
circumstances. Note that "I get everything I want and you get squat" is not a
compromise. Neither is "We'll leave you alone as soon as all of you are dead".

CS

Charlie Self

in reply to [email protected] (Doug Miller) on 01/06/2010 1:23 AM

14/06/2010 2:55 AM

On Jun 4, 8:16=A0am, Markem <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 04:43:29 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:50:52 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>
> >> Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.
>
> >Then what *was* the point? =A0
>
> >Iraq had no WMDs, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq was not a haven
> >for terrorists - other than the ones in power, and they only terrorized
> >Iraqis (after mistakenly assuming we said they could have Kuwait).
>
> >So the Iraq war was fought for?
>
> So we could grind down the terrorist against the US military.
>
> Mark

It seems that it encouraged them to expand, rather than grinding them
down.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to [email protected] (Doug Miller) on 01/06/2010 1:23 AM

14/06/2010 6:20 PM

Charlie Self wrote:
>>
>>> So the Iraq war was fought for?
>>
>> So we could grind down the terrorist against the US military.
>>
>> Mark
>
> It seems that it encouraged them to expand, rather than grinding them
> down.

That's good. The supply will eventually be ground down to, as John Kerry
said, a "nusiance level."

Mm

Markem

in reply to [email protected] (Doug Miller) on 01/06/2010 1:23 AM

04/06/2010 7:16 AM

On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 04:43:29 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:50:52 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>> And when do we take control of Iraq's oil wells?
>>
>> Only an idiot leftist believes that was ever the point.
>
>Then what *was* the point?
>
>Iraq had no WMDs, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq was not a haven
>for terrorists - other than the ones in power, and they only terrorized
>Iraqis (after mistakenly assuming we said they could have Kuwait).
>
>So the Iraq war was fought for?

So we could grind down the terrorist against the US military.

Mark

Er

Evodawg

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:17 PM

Dave Balderstone wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> (political passion filtered out)
>>
>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>
>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
> but the 6th did not.
>
> In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
> they wanted, didn't they?
>
Yes the 5 are decoy's and they all should have been blown out of the water.
Funny how North Korea can sink a ship and get very little notice. Israel
kills a few terrorist and the UN and the rest of the world can't wait to
jump their shit.
Boy what a twisted world we live in!!!!
--
You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK !
Mandriva 2010 using KDE 4.3
Website: www.rentmyhusband.biz

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 11:37 PM

On 5/31/2010 8:31 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> (political passion filtered out)
>>
>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>
>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
> but the 6th did not.
>
> In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
> they wanted, didn't they?

I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and fellow
"Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza; and I
believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding supplies and
food to the people who needed them.

The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.

The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.

My opinion is that one Holocaust is already too many...

...and that opinion comes without a need to attribute motivations to any
of the participants.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 2:24 AM

On 5/31/2010 11:41 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>> (political passion filtered out)
>>
>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>
>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> Yep, just a bunch of peace-loving NATO civilians out for a Sunday sail:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded>
>
> Oh, they also just happened to discuss a few thinks like, oh, jihad and
> martyrdom, but then, I'm sure their intentions were fully peaceful. After
> all, what's a few "death to the Jews!" cheers before a good boat outing?
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded>

Sigh. It seems true that for some (on all sides) it's all about making a
lot of noise and the need to be 'right'. As far as I can tell, none of
the shouting or finger-pointing has improved anything for anyone. YMMV.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 2:24 AM

On 5/31/2010 11:59 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2010 8:31 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>>
>>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>>>
>>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>>
>>> Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
>>> but the 6th did not.
>>>
>>> In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
>>> they wanted, didn't they?
>>
>> I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and fellow
>> "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza; and I
>> believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding supplies and
>> food to the people who needed them.
>>
>> The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
>> said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
>> its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>>
>> The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
>> make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
>> which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
>> million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
>> steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>>
>> My opinion is that one Holocaust is already too many...
>>
>> ...and that opinion comes without a need to attribute motivations to any
>> of the participants.
>
> Your friend may have had good intentions, but not everyone involved in
> these "humanitarian" shipments shares those intentions.

That's probably true, but I can only speak from first hand knowledge of
one person who, I believe, did have good intentions toward both Israelis
and Palestinians - and thought that his presence on an American-flagged
ship might help get humanitarian assistance to ordinary (non-combatant)
people in need.

> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_BTmbX6v0Q&playnext_from=TL&videos=IpxVzvG__WY&feature=sub>
> If it were my territory being bombarded by rockets from Gaza, I'd be pretty
> intent on making sure that supplies going through were pretty well screened.

Me too, but I think any of us could have figured out a better way to
accomplish that end - such as stopping the ships 11 miles out and
requiring inspection of each ship before either allowing it to proceed
to port or turning it back (for cause). After that point they could have
exercised any reasonable force needed to prevent an unauthorized ship
from proceeding.

I have no tolerance for attacking an American vessel in international
waters, towing it to port, and imprisoning crew and passengers - and it
doesn't much matter to me whether the attackers were flying the jolly
roger or the Shield of David.

I'm not unsympathetic to Israel's problems, but really wish they'd start
trying to solve them in ways that doesn't make them worse - and the same
for the Palestinians.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

lL

[email protected] (Larry W)

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 12:20 PM

In article <[email protected]>,
Martin H. Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>Jesus is a profit to the Jews and Muslims.
<...snipped...>

Yes, you can observe this every Christmas...
--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 9:34 AM

On 6/1/2010 7:50 AM, HeyBub wrote:

> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to Gaza
> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.

Appearances are deceiving, no?

> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability to
> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.

Let's not include Egypt in this discussion. Start a new thread if you
feel the need.

> Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
> Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
> living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
> expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
> suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....

I agree that Israel has managed to do a measurably better job for
Israelis, but I would expect that given the flow of wealth into the
country. It's not clear to me that Israel's better results are a
reflection of better governance.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 3:58 PM

On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 08:19:29 -0700, Robatoy wrote:

> In defining the aims of Zionism, Hebrew scholar Levnoch Osman recently
> said: "In our eternal Book of Books (the Torah), the lofty ethical
> teachings of which are cherished by all mankind, the land of Israel is
> described not as a long, narrow strip of land with wavy, crooked
> borders, but as a state with broad natural borders. God has promised to
> Patriarch Abraham the following:
>
> "I give unto them the land where they have sown their seed, from the
> river of Egypt unto the great river of Euphrates’ (Genesis 15:18). And
> so, in order to realize the words of this prophecy, the Israeli state
> had to continue, not in the borders it has today but within its broad
> historical boundaries."

That is so pathetic. They are basing *their* claim on *their* holy
book. Funny how it supports *their* view.

I guess all of us US citizens who aren't American Indians should start
packing. After all, they can make the same claim.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 3:59 PM

On Mon, 31 May 2010 19:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

> Oh, for the power to dissolve all religions and
> the hold they have over idiots of the world...

Hey, Larry - we agree on something :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 2:08 PM

On 6/1/2010 8:50 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>
>> I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and
>> fellow "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza;
>> and I believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding
>> supplies and food to the people who needed them.
>>
>> The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
>> said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
>> its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>
> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to Gaza
> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability to
> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
>>
>> The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
>> make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
>> which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
>> million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
>> steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>>
>
> Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
> Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
> living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
> expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
> suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....

If they don't want to "experience slowly but steadily declining health
due to insufficient nourishment" they can lock Hamas up or hang them or
do something else to get them under control. But instead they'd rather
starve and be blown up than be dragged kicking and screaming into the
20th century.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 2:05 PM

On 6/1/2010 9:46 AM, Max wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 21:12:34 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Han
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
>>>>> intention to come to a solution.
>>>>
>>>> They do.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble, Part I, is that they don't have the *same* solution in
>>>> mind.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble, Part II, is that the solutions they do have in mind are
>>>> mutually
>>>> incompatible: the Israelis don't appear to want much more than
>>>> simply to
>>>> be
>>>> left alone,
>>>
>>> What? Left alone? To keep expanding their country?
>>
>> If they're attacked again, sure they have every right to claim lands
>> gained.
>> They've given most back in the false hope of peace, so I'd expect them
>> to do
>> none of that in the future.
>
> They have an absolute right to defend themselves. But, should the Allied
> nations of WWll claim the territory they captured during the war?
>
>>> To keep building on Palestinian territory?
>>
>> There is no such thing.
>
> In the eye's of a Zionist.

When Hamas starts shooting rockets at the Arab countries that are also
"occupying" parts of "Palestine" then they'll have some credibility.
Why is it just Israel that they hate?

>>>> Again, please describe what compromise you imagine to be possible under
>>>> these
>>>> circumstances. Note that "I get everything I want and you get squat" is
>>>> not a
>>>> compromise. Neither is "We'll leave you alone as soon as all of you are
>>>> dead".
>>>
>
>

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 2:09 PM

On 6/1/2010 10:34 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 6/1/2010 7:50 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>
>> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to
>> Gaza
>> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> Appearances are deceiving, no?
>
>> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
>> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
>> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no
>> capability to
>> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
> Let's not include Egypt in this discussion. Start a new thread if you
> feel the need.
>
>> Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
>> Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
>> living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
>> expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
>> suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....
>
> I agree that Israel has managed to do a measurably better job for
> Israelis, but I would expect that given the flow of wealth into the
> country. It's not clear to me that Israel's better results are a
> reflection of better governance.

Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
rather starve.
>

Cc

Chuck

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 3:09 PM

phorbin wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>
>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an adversary
>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even exist.
>
> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>
> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
> state?
Ever been to Miami Beach?

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 9:22 PM

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/1/2010 7:50 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>
>> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to
>> Gaza
>> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> Appearances are deceiving, no?
>
>> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
>> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
>> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability
>> to
>> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
> Let's not include Egypt in this discussion. Start a new thread if you feel
> the need.

Why? Is the Contrast that bad?

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 9:27 PM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:829071a0-559a-4e82-946d-8a1914c2da42@v18g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 1, 8:50 am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> > I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and
> > fellow "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza;
> > and I believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding
> > supplies and food to the people who needed them.
>
> > The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
> > said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
> > its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>
> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to
> Gaza
> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability
> to
> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
>
>
> > The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
> > make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
> > which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
> > million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
> > steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>
> Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
> Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
> living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
> expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
> suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....
>
> ---
> * Qualified: They couldn't vote for a member of the Knesset, but they
> could
> elect their own mayors and minor officials.

Come on Bub... you're way smarter than that. The Zionists want that
Gaza strip. It is very valuable real estate and those pesky
Palestinians are a thorn in the developers' sides. Besides, it is all
part of the age-old expansionism goals. To wit: (aka 'follow the
money'.)

In defining the aims of Zionism, Hebrew scholar Levnoch Osman recently
said: "In our eternal Book of Books (the Torah), the lofty ethical
teachings of which are cherished by all mankind, the land of Israel is
described not as a long, narrow strip of land with wavy, crooked
borders, but as a state with broad natural borders. God has promised
to Patriarch Abraham the following:

"I give unto them the land where they have sown their seed, from the
river of Egypt unto the great river of Euphrates’ (Genesis 15:18). And
so, in order to realize the words of this prophecy, the Israeli state
had to continue, not in the borders it has today but within its broad
historical boundaries."

And as far back as 1952 Moshe Dayan, the present Israeli defense
minister, declared:

"Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
Israeli empire."

That includes the oilfields.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOW!! Kind of early to whip out the Zionist card. Say, do they own all the
Canadian newspapers and banks?

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 9:31 PM

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:02:14 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
> wrote the following:
>
>>(political passion filtered out)
>>
>>A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>
>>It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>
> I don't agree with anyone on either side, but several things bode well
> for the Israelis:
>
> 1) Israel warned them off and they deliberately ran the blockade.
>
> 2) Israel wanted to make sure that no weapons were delivered to Hamas
> and the deaths prove that the ships were carrying at least some
> weapons.
>
> 3) Israel documented all of this via the media.
>
> Who are these idiots on the ships who attack armed specialists with
> guns, knives, and clubs, anyway? Darwin, here are some more for your
> collection!
>
> That said, I wish we could distance ourselves from Israeli politics
> and let the two countries just duke it out once and for all.
> Y'know, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5LC3xB-RQ
>
> What really bothers me are the tire burnings in Pakistan and other
> world disruptions over this. Oh, for the power to dissolve all
> religions and the hold they have over idiots of the world...


All you got to do to get disruptions from the Pakis and other usual suspects
is announce world wide that Lamb's ran out of Pistachio ice cream. Bastards!

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 9:34 PM

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>> (political passion filtered out)
>>
>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>
>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>
>
>
> Yep, just a bunch of peace-loving NATO civilians out for a Sunday sail:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded>
>
> Oh, they also just happened to discuss a few thinks like, oh, jihad and
> martyrdom, but then, I'm sure their intentions were fully peaceful. After
> all, what's a few "death to the Jews!" cheers before a good boat outing?
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded>

An Inconvenient Truth!

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 9:35 PM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

[ the usual snipped]

So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?

Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?

As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?


btw...

Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."

...and that's pretty much how I see it.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Through the Kool Aid...

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:00 AM

On 6/1/2010 11:58 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 08:19:29 -0700, Robatoy wrote:
>
>> In defining the aims of Zionism, Hebrew scholar Levnoch Osman recently
>> said: "In our eternal Book of Books (the Torah), the lofty ethical
>> teachings of which are cherished by all mankind, the land of Israel is
>> described not as a long, narrow strip of land with wavy, crooked
>> borders, but as a state with broad natural borders. God has promised to
>> Patriarch Abraham the following:
>>
>> "I give unto them the land where they have sown their seed, from the
>> river of Egypt unto the great river of Euphrates’ (Genesis 15:18). And
>> so, in order to realize the words of this prophecy, the Israeli state
>> had to continue, not in the borders it has today but within its broad
>> historical boundaries."
>
> That is so pathetic. They are basing *their* claim on *their* holy
> book. Funny how it supports *their* view.

You are aware, are you not, that "*their* holy book" is also one of
Islam's holy books?

> I guess all of us US citizens who aren't American Indians should start
> packing. After all, they can make the same claim.

Please tell us where to find the Native Americans' "holy book".

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:15 AM

On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>
>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an adversary
>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even exist.
>
> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.

Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
war and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to us.

> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
> state?

Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
Turkey?

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:21 AM

On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [ the usual snipped]
>
> So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?

They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.

> Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?

Do you condone Hamas' behavior?

> btw...
>
> Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> ...and that's pretty much how I see it.

So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:12 AM

On 6/2/2010 12:23 AM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2010 11:59 PM, Mark& Juanita wrote:
>>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/31/2010 8:31 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>>>> In article<[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>>>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by
>>>>>> the naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the
>>>>>> vessels and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers
>>>>>> imprisoned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
>>>>> but the 6th did not.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
>>>>> they wanted, didn't they?
>>>>
>>>> I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and fellow
>>>> "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza; and I
>>>> believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding supplies and
>>>> food to the people who needed them.
>>>>
>>>> The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
>>>> said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
>>>> its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>>>>
>>>> The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
>>>> make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
>>>> which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
>>>> million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
>>>> steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is that one Holocaust is already too many...
>>>>
>>>> ...and that opinion comes without a need to attribute motivations to any
>>>> of the participants.
>>>
>>> Your friend may have had good intentions, but not everyone involved in
>>> these "humanitarian" shipments shares those intentions.
>>
>> That's probably true, but I can only speak from first hand knowledge of
>> one person who, I believe, did have good intentions toward both Israelis
>> and Palestinians - and thought that his presence on an American-flagged
>> ship might help get humanitarian assistance to ordinary (non-combatant)
>> people in need.
>>
>>>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_BTmbX6v0Q&playnext_from=TL&videos=IpxVzvG__WY&feature=sub>
>>> If it were my territory being bombarded by rockets from Gaza, I'd be
>>> pretty intent on making sure that supplies going through were pretty well
>>> screened.
>>
>> Me too, but I think any of us could have figured out a better way to
>> accomplish that end - such as stopping the ships 11 miles out and
>> requiring inspection of each ship before either allowing it to proceed
>> to port or turning it back (for cause). After that point they could have
>> exercised any reasonable force needed to prevent an unauthorized ship
>> from proceeding.
>>
>
> From the accounts I've read, they tried this first. One of the ships (the
> one upon which they landed) did not comply. The Israelis (again by both
> their account and video) then launched a landing on the ship. The soldiers
> landing were armed with paintball guns in anticipation of meeting civil
> disobedience. Instead (and as born out by the videos), the were attacked
> with knives, clubs, and pipes. Only after coming under attack to the point
> of mortal danger did they resort to the use of sidearms. The videos seem to
> bear the Israeli account out.

Read more closely. The events took place 60 miles out, in international
waters, not within the 12 mile limit in which the Israelis /might/ be
able to make a legitimate claim for control.

A flagged vessel in international waters is considered the sovereign
territory of the country whose flag it bears, and any action taken
against it is no different from that same action taken against the
country whose flag it is.

Since you seem to need it spelled out: Israel planned and executed a
military invasion of the sovereign territories of Greece, Turkey, and
the United States.

You and I will just have to disagree because I believe that when under
attack, anything at hand that can inflict damage on the attacker becomes
a legitimate tool for self defense.

>> I have no tolerance for attacking an American vessel in international
>> waters, towing it to port, and imprisoning crew and passengers - and it
>> doesn't much matter to me whether the attackers were flying the jolly
>> roger or the Shield of David.
>
> It would have been better had the ships been allowed to enter the waters
> off of Gaza so that Israel could then have been accused of violating their
> territory? The intent of the ships was clear and their intent to circumvent
> the blockade was clear.

It would have been better for Israel not to have violated international
law, yes.

I aware that Israel has difficulties, but I'm also aware that a
considerable portion of those difficulties are the consequences of the
choices they've made. IMO, the choices made in connection with this
incident were poorly considered.

>> I'm not unsympathetic to Israel's problems, but really wish they'd start
>> trying to solve them in ways that doesn't make them worse - and the same
>> for the Palestinians.
>
> Letting ships that could be carrying arms (and have done so in the past)
> run a blockade intended to prevent exactly those kinds of shipments doesn't
> seem like excessive force.

The ships ran no blockade, and there were no arms as such on the ships
until the Israeli forces brought them on board. Once a fight starts, of
course, everything within reach is a weapon.

BTW, you might find it informative to Google "USS Liberty" (with quotes)
and do a bit of reading...

...because it's always good to know who the friendlies are, and aren't.
Only the terminally naive lend more credibility to words than actions.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:22 AM

On 6/1/2010 11:22 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/1/2010 7:50 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>>
>>> The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments
>>> to Gaza
>>> be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>>
>> Appearances are deceiving, no?
>>
>>> Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
>>> diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
>>> however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no
>>> capability to
>>> send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>>
>> Let's not include Egypt in this discussion. Start a new thread if you
>> feel the need.
>
> Why? Is the Contrast that bad?

That's not it at all - Egypt wasn't a participant.

It's a whole 'nother tangle of complexity, worthy of its own thread. :)

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

ST

Steve Turner

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:28 AM

On 06/02/2010 12:36 AM, Thos wrote:
> Who's doing the woodworking in this thread?
> Seriously....
> TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE YOU STUPID FUCKERS.....

Gee, you must be new here. Welcome to the group. :-)

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:39 AM

On 6/1/2010 11:34 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>
>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>
>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>>
>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>
>> Yep, just a bunch of peace-loving NATO civilians out for a Sunday sail:
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded>
>>
>> Oh, they also just happened to discuss a few thinks like, oh, jihad and
>> martyrdom, but then, I'm sure their intentions were fully peaceful. After
>> all, what's a few "death to the Jews!" cheers before a good boat outing?
>>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded>
>
> An Inconvenient Truth!

Not inconvenient - more like irrelevant.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:46 AM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jun 2, 12:27 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:829071a0-559a-4e82-946d-8a1914c2da42@v18g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 1, 8:50 am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> > > I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and
> > > fellow "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza;
> > > and I believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding
> > > supplies and food to the people who needed them.
>
> > > The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
> > > said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
> > > its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>
> > The Israelis block NO relief effort. They do require that shipments to
> > Gaza
> > be inspected with a view toward prohibiting arms.
>
> > Remember, too, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Egypt is no less
> > diligent about the things allowed to be imported into Gaza. There is,
> > however, a small difference: Israel desires that Gaza have no capability
> > to
> > send rockets into Israel; Egypt wants the Palestinians to die.
>
> > > The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
> > > make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
> > > which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
> > > million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
> > > steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>
> > Interestingly, when the West Bank (and Gaza) was under the control of
> > Israel, the people living there had, objectively, a higher standard of
> > living than much of the Arab world: low unemployment, greater life
> > expectancy, lower infant mortality, universal schooling, universal
> > suffrage*, and so on. Under the government of Hamas, well, .....
>
> > ---
> > * Qualified: They couldn't vote for a member of the Knesset, but they
> > could
> > elect their own mayors and minor officials.
>
> Come on Bub... you're way smarter than that. The Zionists want that
> Gaza strip. It is very valuable real estate and those pesky
> Palestinians are a thorn in the developers' sides. Besides, it is all
> part of the age-old expansionism goals. To wit: (aka 'follow the
> money'.)
>
> In defining the aims of Zionism, Hebrew scholar Levnoch Osman recently
> said: "In our eternal Book of Books (the Torah), the lofty ethical
> teachings of which are cherished by all mankind, the land of Israel is
> described not as a long, narrow strip of land with wavy, crooked
> borders, but as a state with broad natural borders. God has promised
> to Patriarch Abraham the following:
>
> "I give unto them the land where they have sown their seed, from the
> river of Egypt unto the great river of Euphrates’ (Genesis 15:18). And
> so, in order to realize the words of this prophecy, the Israeli state
> had to continue, not in the borders it has today but within its broad
> historical boundaries."
>
> And as far back as 1952 Moshe Dayan, the present Israeli defense
> minister, declared:
>
> "Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
> approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
> Israeli empire."
>
> That includes the oilfields.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> WOW!! Kind of early to whip out the Zionist card. Say, do they own all the
> Canadian newspapers and banks?

Lobbeeeee!! Must you resort to a Zionist tactic? A failed attempt at
trying to connect anti semitism with the condemnation of the criminal
behaviour of the the state of Israel. Do your homework before whipping
out that smokescreen. (That's more Daneliuk's style, btw.)
There are 6 billion people alive today who had absolutely nothing to
do with what happened to granpa at Bergen-Belsen. There are 6 billion
people alive today who had nothing to do with slavery. I am sick and
fucking tired of being held hostage, paying bills over shit I had
nothing to do with. *I* did not lock up a whole bunch of Japanese in
concentration camps in British Columbia.
There is no doubt that a holocaust happened, but that doesn't give
anybody the right to create a new one in Gaza and stop being an
apologist for what has become a criminal regime. YOU dare talk of
KoolAid?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not an apologist for anyone. The Israelis screw up with great
regularity, but that Zionist shit is exactly that - Shit.

And, BTW, if anyone is starving in Gaza it's because Hamas is not equitably
distributing the supplies delivered to them.

Other than that, I also am tired of paying for all this shit.

It is claimed that Native Americans reached Tierra del Fuego by 13,000 years
BP. The reason they got there so fast was subsequent waves of IMMIGRANTS
from Asia forced rapid dispersion. Send the bastids home!

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:47 AM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:96064bd4-2ed9-48a8-8157-590e7bd1780f@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 2, 12:35 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [ the usual snipped]
>
> So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> btw...
>
> Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Through the Kool Aid...

Maybe a little KoolAid, but that's better than being completely
fukking blind.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Me? At least I got a spell chequer and don't spell fucking with two Ks!

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:49 AM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>
> > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > btw...
>
> > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?

Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
oppressor in WW2?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name a non-oppresive arab state.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:50 AM

"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 06/02/2010 12:36 AM, Thos wrote:
>> Who's doing the woodworking in this thread?
>> Seriously....
>> TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE YOU STUPID FUCKERS.....
>
> Gee, you must be new here. Welcome to the group. :-)
>
> --
> Free bad advice available here.
> To reply, eat the taco.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/


And, BTW, you suck!

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:57 AM

"Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>> adversary
>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
>>>> exist.
>>>
>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>
>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a war
>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to us.
>>
>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>>> state?
>>
>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>> Turkey?
>
> Were the Turks given a choice?

Yes.

> What was that "province" called at that time?

It wasn't Palestine. That's what the Brits called it.

> Who was living there?

Mostly nomads.

>
> Y
>

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:58 AM

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 6/1/2010 11:34 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>
>>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>>
>>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>>>
>>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>>
>>> Yep, just a bunch of peace-loving NATO civilians out for a Sunday sail:
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded>
>>>
>>> Oh, they also just happened to discuss a few thinks like, oh, jihad and
>>> martyrdom, but then, I'm sure their intentions were fully peaceful.
>>> After
>>> all, what's a few "death to the Jews!" cheers before a good boat outing?
>>>
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded>
>>
>> An Inconvenient Truth!
>
> Not inconvenient - more like irrelevant.


Very relevant. Shows intent. The intent was Not humanitarian.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 10:23 AM

On 6/2/2010 9:49 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>>
>> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > [ the usual snipped]
>>
>> > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
>> > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>>
>> They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>>
>> > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>>
>> > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>>
>> Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>>
>> > btw...
>>
>> > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
>> > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
>> > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
>> > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>>
>> > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>>
>> So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?
>
> Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
> oppressor in WW2?

And the Allies were taken as pretty much being "anti" anybody they were
shooting at.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Name a non-oppresive arab state.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 10:21 AM

On 6/2/2010 9:40 AM, Y? wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>> adversary
>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
>>>> exist.
>>>
>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>
>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a war
>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to us.
>>
>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>>> state?
>>
>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>> Turkey?
>
> Were the Turks given a choice?

The same one the Germans had. You don't seem to grasp the concept of
"lost a war".

> What was that "province" called at that time?

Parts of what is now Israel were spread among the Vilayet of Beirut, the
Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of Jerusalem.

> Who was living there?

Turks.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 10:36 AM

On 6/2/2010 9:59 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> My solution? STOP sending those Zionist bastards foreign aid and
>> modern weapons. Many, many Jews aren't in agreement with what the
>> State Of Israel has become either. ("You can't force the Messiah to
>> come!")
>
> A. Uh, the U.S. doesn't send foreign aid to Israel. The U.S. DOES send funds
> to Israel; these monies are of three kinds:
>
> 1. Loans. Israel is current on its repayment obligations.
>
> 2. Grants. Much like grants to universities: The U.S. sends money, Israel
> supplies the talent and labor, they share in the results. The "Arrow" missle
> (also known as the Patriot) and its recent upgrades are an example.

Huh? The Patriot went into service in the US in 1981. The first test
of the Arrow was in 1990 and it didn't go operational until 2000, at
which time the Patriot had been in service for nearly 20 years. You
seem to be conflating two different missiles that do similar jobs.

> 3. About $3 billion a year is divided between Egypt and Israel in
> furtherance of the Sinai and Oslo peace accords.
>
> B. The United States doesn't "send" modern weapons to Israel. Israel buys
> them from the manufacturers (who happen to be in the U.S., i.e.,
> Lockheed-Martin).
>
> C. There are some ultra-orthodox Jews who oppose the secular state of
> Israel, for just the reason you named. Some won't even use an Israeli
> postage stamp! They number about twelve people in total, not the "many,
> many" you claim.
>
>

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:20 AM

"Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>>>> adversary
>>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to
>>>>>> even exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>>
>>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>>> war and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back
>>>> to us.
>>>>
>>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>>>>> it
>>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and
>>>>> sovereign
>>>>> state?
>>>>
>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate
>>>> resulting from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a
>>>> province of Turkey?
>>>
>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>
> What, because they had just lost the war the legue of nations felt sorry
> for them and asked nicely??
>
No.
>
>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>
>> It wasn't Palestine. That's what the Brits called it.
>
>
> Oh, so not the Romans then?

No.

>
>
>>> Who was living there?
>>
>> Mostly nomads.
>
>
> Bullshit!

No.

>
> Y.
>

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:23 AM

"Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Y? wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any
>>>> trouble with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British
>>>> mandate resulting from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now
>>>> Israel was a province of Turkey?
>>>
>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>
>> No. They lost the war. Their "choice" was siding with Germany and Austria
>> in the first place.
>
> Yes so the statement that they "didn't have any trouble with it" is a bit
> simplistic
>
>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>
>> It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Same as (what is now) Saudi Arabia,
>> Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, etc.
>
> Yes plus many more, it was a big empire.
> But didn't the Romans have a fair chunk of it earlier on. What did they
> call the bit in question.

What does it matter, the Romans were not around for WWI.

>
>>> Who was living there?
>>
>> Subjects of the Ottoman Empire. There were Jews, Muslims, Christians,
>> Copts, Marrionites, Druze, and people of other religious persuasions.
>
> Yes, a couple of thousand years worth of settlers.

More than that actually. Probably something like 150,000 years. Changed
hands more often than a dollar bill. Sometimes in the same year.

>
> Y.
>
>

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:26 AM

"Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/2/2010 9:40 AM, Y? wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>>>> adversary
>>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>>
>>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>>> war
>>>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to
>>>> us.
>>>>
>>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>>>>> it
>>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and
>>>>> sovereign
>>>>> state?
>>>>
>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate
>>>> resulting
>>>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>>>> Turkey?
>>>
>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>
>> The same one the Germans had. You don't seem to grasp the concept of
>> "lost a war".
>
> I think i do.
> Your words were "the Turks didn' thave any trouble with it" I think you
> erred.

You see the Turks Whining to get it back? How many "Palestinians" have the
Turks taken in?

>
>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>
>> Parts of what is now Israel were spread among the Vilayet of Beirut, the
>> Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of Jerusalem.
>
> What was it referred to at the time of WW1.
> I know when i asked my Grandfather where he fought he said "bloody
> Palestine" son "you don't want to go there"
> He was talking literally.

Right. Just like I said. That's what the BRITS called it. Note that they
never Whined about getting it back.

>
>>> Who was living there?
>>
>> Turks.
>
> Not Ottomans?
> Or Palestinians?
>
> Y.

No, Turks.

>
>
>
>

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:27 AM

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> My solution? STOP sending those Zionist bastards foreign aid and
>> modern weapons. Many, many Jews aren't in agreement with what the
>> State Of Israel has become either. ("You can't force the Messiah to
>> come!")
>
> A. Uh, the U.S. doesn't send foreign aid to Israel. The U.S. DOES send
> funds to Israel; these monies are of three kinds:
>
> 1. Loans. Israel is current on its repayment obligations.
>
> 2. Grants. Much like grants to universities: The U.S. sends money, Israel
> supplies the talent and labor, they share in the results. The "Arrow"
> missle (also known as the Patriot) and its recent upgrades are an example.
>
> 3. About $3 billion a year is divided between Egypt and Israel in
> furtherance of the Sinai and Oslo peace accords.
>
> B. The United States doesn't "send" modern weapons to Israel. Israel buys
> them from the manufacturers (who happen to be in the U.S., i.e.,
> Lockheed-Martin).
>
> C. There are some ultra-orthodox Jews who oppose the secular state of
> Israel, for just the reason you named. Some won't even use an Israeli
> postage stamp! They number about twelve people in total, not the "many,
> many" you claim.

At least it's a minyan ...

>

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:32 AM

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 21:31:57 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]>
> wrote the following:
>
>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>
>>> What really bothers me are the tire burnings in Pakistan and other
>>> world disruptions over this. Oh, for the power to dissolve all
>>> religions and the hold they have over idiots of the world...
>>
>>All you got to do to get disruptions from the Pakis and other usual
>>suspects
>>is announce world wide that Lamb's ran out of Pistachio ice cream.
>>Bastards!
>
> Either A) you've been drinking. or B) you're discussing something of
> an entirely local nature which is not known to any of us outsiders.
> Whassa "Lamb's" and what does pistachio ice cream have to do with
> anything?


Precisely my point. They will disrupt at the drop of a pistachio.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:33 AM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:fe28926b-2d8a-472c-b744-bf233128b609@z33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 2, 9:49 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> > They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>
> > > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> > Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > > btw...
>
> > > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is crossed
> > > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> > > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> > So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?
>
> Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
> oppressor in WW2?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Name a non-oppresive arab state.

By that logic, Israel is trying to free the oppressed arabs?
Interesting twist, that.

I guess that explains The Wall. It was put up to give the Palestinians
freedom?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:52 AM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f5ea494c-0daa-4b96-ac3c-729296e30bf8@a20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 2, 11:33 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:fe28926b-2d8a-472c-b744-bf233128b609@z33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 9:49 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > >news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > > > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > > > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> > > They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>
> > > > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > > > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> > > Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > > > btw...
>
> > > > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > > > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is
> > > > crossed
> > > > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example by
> > > > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > > > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> > > So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?
>
> > Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
> > oppressor in WW2?
>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Name a non-oppresive arab state.
>
> By that logic, Israel is trying to free the oppressed arabs?
> Interesting twist, that.
>
> I guess that explains The Wall. It was put up to give the Palestinians
> freedom?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?

You mean more or less oppressive than Israel?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a simple question. Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 11:21 AM

On 6/2/2010 9:59 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

> Absolutely NOT irrelevant, Morris. That she shrugs about life and
> death, saying "We either make it or we become martyrs." is of far more
> relevance to the world than the little Jew/Arab land grab in progress.

Umm - ok, it's about as relevant as earlier American spoutings for
killing /all/ the krouts, japs, dagos, chinks,...

...and, frankly, I'd a lot rather people let off steam shouting than
doing things that can't be undone/forgotten.

> I sure wish the people of Islam would clean up their fundamentalist
> mess. (Ditto the Christians, ad nauseum.)

Yeah, me too, but it's much easier said than done - and unfortunately
it's always somebody _else_ who needs to clean up their mess.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 1:10 PM

On 6/2/2010 9:13 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>
>> Read more closely. The events took place 60 miles out, in
>> international waters, not within the 12 mile limit in which the
>> Israelis /might/ be able to make a legitimate claim for control.
>
> But well within the 200-mile military exclusionary zone recognized by
> international law.
>
>> A flagged vessel in international waters is considered the sovereign
>> territory of the country whose flag it bears, and any action taken
>> against it is no different from that same action taken against the
>> country whose flag it is.
>
> Absolutely not true. If it were, our customs inspectors could not enter the
> vessel and would have to treat it as a foreign embassy.

You might want to read up on Admiralty law. A good starting point might
be http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Admiralty

>> The ships ran no blockade, and there were no arms as such on the ships
>> until the Israeli forces brought them on board. Once a fight starts,
>> of course, everything within reach is a weapon.
>
> According to Israeli source, the combined "humanitarian" relief on all the
> ships involved in the incident totaled less than 10% of the humanitarian aid
> that crosses from Israel into Gaza EACH DAY.

Which statement carries remarkably little information. The most recent
information from the UN indicates that the total aid (from all sources)
is about 25% of the total needed.

I have no way of verifying either source, but my inclination is to give
greater weight to the UN. YMMV.

>> BTW, you might find it informative to Google "USS Liberty" (with
>> quotes) and do a bit of reading...
>
> Ah, the Liberty. You mean the electronic-monitoring, armed, warship cruising
> in a military exclusion zone? Investigations by both countries did not affix
> blame for the incident. Israel did pay reparations and admit "Our bad."
>
> Mighty white of them, you ask me.

Indeed. It's too bad their "whiteness" can't resurrect the 34 Americans
they killed nor uninjure the 171 Americans they wounded.

It's all very well to be forgiving - that's something we do for
ourselves in order not to carry a load of hate. But forgetting is an
altogether different matter.

Remembering such events helps us to know where _not_ to place trust.

You may choose to take their word at face value; and you may choose to
make/accept excuses for them.

I'd rather base my assessments on their actions.

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 1:38 PM

On 6/1/2010 1:09 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
> own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
> rather starve.

Rather like the soldiers at Valley Forge "choosing" to have cold feet, no?

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 3:51 PM

On 6/2/2010 2:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 6/1/2010 1:09 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
>> own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
>> rather starve.
>
> Rather like the soldiers at Valley Forge "choosing" to have cold feet, no?

Yep, was their choice.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 4:00 PM

On 6/2/2010 10:56 AM, Y? wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/2/2010 9:40 AM, Y? wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>>>> adversary
>>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to even
>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>>
>>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>>> war
>>>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to us.
>>>>
>>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>>>>> it
>>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>>>>> state?
>>>>
>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
>>>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>>>> Turkey?
>>>
>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>
>> The same one the Germans had. You don't seem to grasp the concept of
>> "lost a war".
>
> I think i do.
> Your words were "the Turks didn' thave any trouble with it" I think you
> erred.

Nope. Turkey is not now and never has been shooting rockets into
Israel, and until the recent incident they had fairly close ties to
Israel.

>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>
>> Parts of what is now Israel were spread among the Vilayet of Beirut, the
>> Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of Jerusalem.
>
> What was it referred to at the time of WW1.

The Vilayet of Beirut, the Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of
Jerusalem.

> I know when i asked my Grandfather where he fought he said "bloody
> Palestine" son "you don't want to go there"
> He was talking literally.

Whoever he worked for might have called it Palestine or the Queen of the
May, the Turks, who owned it, didn't call it that.

>>> Who was living there?
>>
>> Turks.
>
> Not Ottomans?
> Or Palestinians?

It was all Turkey and had been for half a millennium.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 4:04 PM

On 6/2/2010 10:21 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> Come on Bub... you're way smarter than that. The Zionists want that
>> Gaza strip. It is very valuable real estate and those pesky
>> Palestinians are a thorn in the developers' sides. Besides, it is all
>> part of the age-old expansionism goals. To wit: (aka 'follow the
>> money'.)
>
> Are you INSANE? Israel occupied Gaza and Sinai as a result of the 1967 war.
> In the fullness of time, Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt and tried to
> include Gaza. Egypt said "Not by the hair of my chnney-chin-chin. We don't
> WANT Gaza back. It's full of Palestinians!"
>
>>
>> And as far back as 1952 Moshe Dayan, the present Israeli defense
>> minister, declared:
>>
>> "Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
>> approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
>> Israeli empire."
>>
>> That includes the oilfields.
>
> Oilfieds? In Gaza? I know you're as mad as a hatter!

Israeli lament -- "Oh, God, in your infinite wisdom, why did you have
to give us the only patch of land in the entire Middle East with NO OIL?"

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 4:01 PM

On 6/2/2010 12:34 PM, Y? wrote:
> "Lobby Dosser"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Y?"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/2/2010 9:40 AM, Y? wrote:
>>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with an
>>>>>>>> adversary
>>>>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to
>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the Jews
>>>>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>>>>> war
>>>>>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to
>>>>>> us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and
>>>>>>> sovereign
>>>>>>> state?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>>>>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate
>>>>>> resulting
>>>>>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>>>>>> Turkey?
>>>>>
>>>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>>>
>>>> The same one the Germans had. You don't seem to grasp the concept of
>>>> "lost a war".
>>>
>>> I think i do.
>>> Your words were "the Turks didn' thave any trouble with it" I think you
>>> erred.
>>
>> You see the Turks Whining to get it back? How many "Palestinians" have the
>> Turks taken in?
>
>
> Well, by your reconing, all of them. There was no "Palestinians" only Turks.
>
>
>>>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>>>
>>>> Parts of what is now Israel were spread among the Vilayet of Beirut, the
>>>> Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of Jerusalem.
>>>
>>> What was it referred to at the time of WW1.
>>> I know when i asked my Grandfather where he fought he said "bloody
>>> Palestine" son "you don't want to go there"
>>> He was talking literally.
>>
>> Right. Just like I said. That's what the BRITS called it. Note that they
>> never Whined about getting it back.
>
>
> Back from who?

The Jews after the UN gave it to them.

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 4:48 PM

On 6/2/2010 3:20 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> Who really knows what the truth is these days?

Probably no single individual - but it's out there to be gotten.

> Who has any idea of the truth of goings on the middle east? (Really,
> anywhere for that matter...) If anyone does, they should share their
> insight to help unravel the knots. Surely a Nobel Prize would be
> forthcoming.

There are a lot of people living in the ME who have slivers of the
whole. There are quite a few Americans in that grouping and, by and
large, they maintain a low profile - so you probably won't hear much
from them.

I correspond with a sizable group of Americans who grew up in the ME.
It's an otherwise unremarkable group, except that we've all tried to
keep an eye on events in the region. Some few still live there, but I
haven't heard any claim to have become an expert on the Middle East.

I gathered up the related posts to the list that did not include
personal info - or information that might endanger someone (or their
job) - and pushed them out to a web page. I've included the posts from
the guy who went on the US-flagged vessel.

One of the more interesting posts came from a woman in Paris - she had
info that I hadn't caught from US sources, and I asked her for
permission to quote her post and for some additional source info. I've
included her reply with the list postings on the web page linked below.

*, the guy on the US-flagged ship is safely home and has promised to
fill us in as soon as he rests up a bit. I won't post his name without
his permission.

FWIW, I don't think he's a terrorist. :)

> Well said, Karl. This is silliness, thankfully marked as OT.

You're welcome. :)

--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Misc/GazaPosts.html

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 6:28 PM

On 6/2/2010 5:02 PM, Max wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/2/2010 2:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>>> On 6/1/2010 1:09 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
>>>> own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
>>>> rather starve.
>>>
>>> Rather like the soldiers at Valley Forge "choosing" to have cold
>>> feet, no?
>>
>> Yep, was their choice.
>
> In that sense, everything in life is a choice.

They chose to fight the British--nobody held a gun to their head.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 7:42 PM

On 6/2/2010 7:56 PM, phorbin wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>
>
>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would it
>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>>> state?
>>
>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>> Turkey?
>
> Irrelevant.
>
> Address the question.

When the US starts a war with Britain, loses, then cedes territory to
Britain in reparations, then I'll worry about it.

> Why not use your own state as the one coopted to become a foreign nation
> and then address the question.

The Jews are welcome to it--they couldn't possibly run it any worse that
the current bunch.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:22 PM

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>
>> It wasn't Palestine. That's what the Brits called it.
>>
>>> Who was living there?
>>
>> Mostly nomads.
>>
>
> And you want other people to review *their* history?

Don't believe I said That.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:23 PM

"Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Y? wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any
>>>>>> trouble with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British
>>>>>> mandate resulting from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now
>>>>>> Israel was a province of Turkey?
>>>>>
>>>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>>>
>>>> No. They lost the war. Their "choice" was siding with Germany and
>>>> Austria in the first place.
>>>
>>> Yes so the statement that they "didn't have any trouble with it" is a
>>> bit simplistic
>>>
>>>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>>>
>>>> It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Same as (what is now) Saudi Arabia,
>>>> Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, etc.
>>>
>>> Yes plus many more, it was a big empire.
>>> But didn't the Romans have a fair chunk of it earlier on. What did they
>>> call the bit in question.
>>
>> What does it matter, the Romans were not around for WWI.
>
>
> It doesn't matter. But the Brits, whilst they used it, did not make up the
> name Palestine and you know it.
>
>
>>>>> Who was living there?
>>>>
>>>> Subjects of the Ottoman Empire. There were Jews, Muslims, Christians,
>>>> Copts, Marrionites, Druze, and people of other religious persuasions.
>>>
>>> Yes, a couple of thousand years worth of settlers.
>>
>> More than that actually. Probably something like 150,000 years. Changed
>> hands more often than a dollar bill. Sometimes in the same year.
>
>
> Yeah, I herad they were all nomads.
>
> Your obfuscation throughout this thread makes it hard to take you
> seriously.
>
> Y.
>
>
>

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:23 PM

"Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Y? wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any
>>>>>> trouble with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British
>>>>>> mandate resulting from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now
>>>>>> Israel was a province of Turkey?
>>>>>
>>>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>>>
>>>> No. They lost the war. Their "choice" was siding with Germany and
>>>> Austria in the first place.
>>>
>>> Yes so the statement that they "didn't have any trouble with it" is a
>>> bit simplistic
>>>
>>>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>>>
>>>> It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Same as (what is now) Saudi Arabia,
>>>> Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, etc.
>>>
>>> Yes plus many more, it was a big empire.
>>> But didn't the Romans have a fair chunk of it earlier on. What did they
>>> call the bit in question.
>>
>> What does it matter, the Romans were not around for WWI.
>
>
> It doesn't matter. But the Brits, whilst they used it, did not make up the
> name Palestine and you know it.
>
>
>>>>> Who was living there?
>>>>
>>>> Subjects of the Ottoman Empire. There were Jews, Muslims, Christians,
>>>> Copts, Marrionites, Druze, and people of other religious persuasions.
>>>
>>> Yes, a couple of thousand years worth of settlers.
>>
>> More than that actually. Probably something like 150,000 years. Changed
>> hands more often than a dollar bill. Sometimes in the same year.
>
>
> Yeah, I herad they were all nomads.
>
> Your obfuscation throughout this thread makes it hard to take you
> seriously.
>


And your Trolling is what, entertainment?

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:24 PM

"Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Y?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/2/2010 9:40 AM, Y? wrote:
>>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 6/1/2010 3:40 PM, phorbin wrote:
>>>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please tell me what compromise you imagine might be possible with
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> adversary
>>>>>>>> who maintains, as Hamas does of Israel, that you have no right to
>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Creating Israel where they did was an error in judgement and the
>>>>>>> Jews
>>>>>>> should have been offered Florida ...or maybe Scotland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Britain didn't own Florida you know. When the UK defeats the US in a
>>>>>> war
>>>>>> and is ceded Florida as part of the war reparations then get back to
>>>>>> us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long
>>>>>>> would it
>>>>>>> take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and
>>>>>>> sovereign
>>>>>>> state?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any
>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate
>>>>>> resulting
>>>>>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>>>>>> Turkey?
>>>>>
>>>>> Were the Turks given a choice?
>>>>
>>>> The same one the Germans had. You don't seem to grasp the concept of
>>>> "lost a war".
>>>
>>> I think i do.
>>> Your words were "the Turks didn' thave any trouble with it" I think you
>>> erred.
>>
>> You see the Turks Whining to get it back? How many "Palestinians" have
>> the Turks taken in?
>
>
> Well, by your reconing, all of them. There was no "Palestinians" only
> Turks.
>
>
>>>>> What was that "province" called at that time?
>>>>
>>>> Parts of what is now Israel were spread among the Vilayet of Beirut,
>>>> the Vilayet of Syria, and the Mutassariffiyet of Jerusalem.
>>>
>>> What was it referred to at the time of WW1.
>>> I know when i asked my Grandfather where he fought he said "bloody
>>> Palestine" son "you don't want to go there"
>>> He was talking literally.
>>
>> Right. Just like I said. That's what the BRITS called it. Note that they
>> never Whined about getting it back.
>
>
> Back from who?


The UN.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:27 PM

"phorbin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>
>
>> > My point being that if Israel were created in the USA, how long would
>> > it
>> > take for Americans to accept it as a legitimate, separate and sovereign
>> > state?
>>
>> Instead it was created in Turkey and the Turks didn't have any trouble
>> with it. Or are you unaware that prior to the British mandate resulting
>> from the defeat of Turkey in WWI what is now Israel was a province of
>> Turkey?
>
> Irrelevant.
>
> Address the question.
>
> Why not use your own state as the one coopted to become a foreign nation
> and then address the question.


Point is, it was not 'foreign' to the people living there. They were, you
might say, Liberated from Turkey.

LD

"Lobby Dosser"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 5:35 PM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eb0dafc0-a9e8-46d5-bd1c-c1d0dae14bce@o39g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 2, 11:52 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:f5ea494c-0daa-4b96-ac3c-729296e30bf8@a20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 11:33 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:fe28926b-2d8a-472c-b744-bf233128b609@z33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 2, 9:49 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > >news:7e4f4c3d-a959-4076-afd0-d7bafd6d2e64@y21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jun 2, 8:21 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On 6/2/2010 12:35 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
> > > > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > >news:b57dbf17-9631-4b14-a3a6-ee6b9d94447c@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > [ the usual snipped]
>
> > > > > So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> > > > > starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> > > > They made their choice. Now they get to live with it.
>
> > > > > Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> > > > > As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>
> > > > Do you condone Hamas' behavior?
>
> > > > > btw...
>
> > > > > Colin Powell, at the OSCE conference: "It is not anti-Semitic to
> > > > > criticize the policies of the state of Israel. But the line is
> > > > > crossed
> > > > > when Israel or its leaders are demonized or vilified, for example
> > > > > by
> > > > > the use of Nazi symbols and racist caricatures."
>
> > > > > ...and that's pretty much how I see it.
>
> > > > So shooting rockets at them doesn't count?
>
> > > Did the Allies ever shoot off any powder in an attempt to dislodge an
> > > oppressor in WW2?
>
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Name a non-oppresive arab state.
>
> > By that logic, Israel is trying to free the oppressed arabs?
> > Interesting twist, that.
>
> > I guess that explains The Wall. It was put up to give the Palestinians
> > freedom?
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?
>
> You mean more or less oppressive than Israel?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's a simple question. Can you name a non-oppressive arab state?

Every 'state' is oppressive in some form or another. By that
yardstick, there are no 'non-oppressive' states, arab or otherwise.
So to answer your question, no, I cannot name a non-oppressive arab
state.

Now explain how this helps this conversation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How are the Israelis 'oppressive' and would the 'Palestinians be better off
under another arab state? Do you understand the origin of Black September?
Do you think ANY current arab regime would put up with the 'Palestinians'
any better or even as well as the Israelis? As a matter of fact, the
'Palestinians' would be better governed by the Israelis than Hamas or the
PNA!

JS

Jack Stein

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 10:54 AM

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 19:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Oh, for the power to dissolve all religions and
>> the hold they have over idiots of the world...
>
> Hey, Larry - we agree on something :-).
>
> Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

If you want to quote George Bernard Shaw, perhaps a more appropriate one
is in order:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eir00rOho&feature=related

--
Jack
Got Change: Individual Freedom =======> Government Control!
http://jbstein.com

JS

Jack Stein

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 11:11 AM

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote in message

> "Our task consists of preparing the Israeli army for the new war
> approaching in order to achieve our ultimate goal, the creation of an
> Israeli empire."
>
> That includes the oilfields.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> WOW!! Kind of early to whip out the Zionist card. Say, do they own all
> the Canadian newspapers and banks?

Oh no, not the bankers... You know Robocop has trouble with bankers.
(Not to mention gays and women)

--
Jack
Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eir00rOho&feature=related

JS

Jack Stein

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 11:24 AM

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote in message

> Maybe a little KoolAid, but that's better than being completely
> fukking blind.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------

> Me? At least I got a spell chequer and don't spell fucking with two Ks!

Hmmm, he also spells 'cunt' with two o's.... Maybe his head is just
fukked up?

--
Jack
A.C.O.R.N: For Democrats that just can't vote often enough...
http://jbstein.com

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

03/06/2010 4:25 PM

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:54:30 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

> > Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
>
> If you want to quote George Bernard Shaw, perhaps a more appropriate one
> is in order:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eir00rOho&feature=related

There's no doubt Shaw was an equal opportunity hater :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

JJ

"Josepi"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:51 PM

Apparently this OT stuff is about all this group is good for. You have a
bunch of
jackasses trying to ruin the group with their "know-it-all" attitudes trying
to overcome their inferiority complexes on the rest of the group. This tends
to scare most real woodworkers away.

Be prepared for mouthfuls of BS by mostly sock puppets of probably one or
maybe two OCD personalities. Get your killfilters (bozobin) ready...LOL

All the best!



"Thos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Who's doing the woodworking in this thread?
Seriously....
TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE YOU STUPID FUCKERS.....












--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 2:02 PM

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 15:59:33 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote the following:

>On Mon, 31 May 2010 19:17:07 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Oh, for the power to dissolve all religions and
>> the hold they have over idiots of the world...
>
>Hey, Larry - we agree on something :-).

It's about flippin' -time-, Brother Larry.

--
A well-informed mind is the best security against the contagion of
folly and of vice. The vacant mind is ever on the watch for relief,
and ready to plunge into error, to escape from the languor of idleness.
-- Ann Radcliffe

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 9:34 AM

J. Clarke wrote:

>
> If they don't want to "experience slowly but steadily declining health
> due to insufficient nourishment" they can lock Hamas up or hang them
> or do something else to get them under control. But instead they'd
> rather starve and be blown up than be dragged kicking and screaming
> into the 20th century.

I hope you'll permit a modest correction. Your statement would make more
sense if it read "... dragged kicking and screaming out of the tenth
century."

The Muslims are in much the same place as Christianity during the dark ages.
I say give 'em anothe 500 years or so and they'll experience their own
"enlightenment" then "renaissance."

kk

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 10:11 PM

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 07:46:09 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 21:12:34 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Han
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
>>>>>intention to come to a solution.
>>>>
>>>> They do.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble, Part I, is that they don't have the *same* solution in
>>>> mind.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble, Part II, is that the solutions they do have in mind are
>>>> mutually
>>>> incompatible: the Israelis don't appear to want much more than simply to
>>>> be
>>>> left alone,
>>>
>>>What? Left alone? To keep expanding their country?
>>
>> If they're attacked again, sure they have every right to claim lands
>> gained.
>> They've given most back in the false hope of peace, so I'd expect them to
>> do
>> none of that in the future.
>
>They have an absolute right to defend themselves. But, should the Allied
>nations of WWll claim the territory they captured during the war?

At least until the end of hostilities, yes. Even after, if they so chose.
That's often the price for waging war.

>>>To keep building on Palestinian territory?
>>
>> There is no such thing.
>
>In the eye's of a Zionist.

Try some history. Not the SP revisionist crap, either.

<...>

bR

[email protected] (Robert Bonomi)

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

04/06/2010 3:16 PM


NOTICE: The discussion following concerns strictly the _legalities_ surrounding
the incident. The 'ethics'/'moralities'/'rightness' are an entirely different
matter.

It's a *BAD* situation, all around. Before and after this incident.
For these kinds of reasons -- nobody else stepped up to actually -stop-
the blockade runners (the U.S., Greece, and Turkey, did a lot of hand-wringing,
and saying to the activists "I _areally -wish you wouldn't do this", but nobody
actually forbade them from doing it -- Israel feels it is 'all alone' in
dealing with these problems. That they cannot _rely_ on anybody else to help.

Given *that* it should be no surprise that they _don't_ take 'world opinion'
into serious consideration when they're faced with a decision that may involve
'doing something unpopular'.

I don't necessarily _agree_ with their decisions, but I _do_ understand *how*
they come to make them. While I _regret_ the decisions, *given*the*situation*
I find it difficult to condemn them -- they are in a situation where they
have a choice _only_ between a number of 'unpalatable' alternatives. When
there is _no_ 'good solution', the -best- you can do is pick the one that
appears to be the 'least bad'.

In article <[email protected]>,
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:

[. sneck .]
>
>Read more closely. The events took place 60 miles out, in international
>waters, not within the 12 mile limit in which the Israelis /might/ be
>able to make a legitimate claim for control.

FWIW, a -large- number of nations now claim rights out to _200_ miles
from their coast. The U.S. does so for a number or things. This may
or may not be relevant to this situation..

>A flagged vessel in international waters is considered the sovereign
>territory of the country whose flag it bears,

True.

> and any action taken
>against it is no different from that same action taken against the
>country whose flag it is.

"Not exactly", I'm afraid. There are a large number of situations,
recognized in the 'Law of the Sea', which constitute exceptions to
that 'general rule'.

>Since you seem to need it spelled out: Israel planned and executed a
>military invasion of the sovereign territories of Greece, Turkey, and
>the United States.

And Germany invaded the United States and England in 1942.

Snotty comment aside ....

Shall we look at the actions of the 'other guys' -- who sailed into a
(declared) 'war zone' *against* the official word of their _own_ (U.S.,
Turkey, and Greece -- they -all- told the flotilla "don't go there"/
"don't do that" ) governments.

There is a *LOT* of treaty 'law' involving the conduct of military actions,
and specifically including 'naval blockades', all of which is relevant to
this situation.

Civilian craft that _refuse_to_turn_aside_ when informed that they are
sailing in to an 'area of active hostilities' _are_ legitimate 'targets
of war', -- they do -not- get a 'free pass' just because they are flying a
different flag.

>You and I will just have to disagree because I believe that when under
>attack, anything at hand that can inflict damage on the attacker becomes
>a legitimate tool for self defense.

It is _arguable_, as a matter of maritime law, whether the boarding of the
vessel sailing into the 'maritime exclusion zone', *after* being warned,
AND given the opportunity to change course, constitutes an actual _attack_.

Significant evidence _does_ seem to support the assertation that the first
people to employ actual violence were the 'activists' on the ship.

>>> I have no tolerance for attacking an American vessel in international
>>> waters, towing it to port, and imprisoning crew and passengers - and it
>>> doesn't much matter to me whether the attackers were flying the jolly
>>> roger or the Shield of David.
>>
>> It would have been better had the ships been allowed to enter the waters
>> off of Gaza so that Israel could then have been accused of violating their
>> territory? The intent of the ships was clear and their intent to circumvent
>> the blockade was clear.
>
>It would have been better for Israel not to have violated international
>law, yes.

Excuuuuse me!!! What do you think sailing _warships_ into the territorial
waters of the area that HAMAS claims' sovereignty' over _without_ the
permission/consent of said 'sovereign' government would be?

And that's without considering the 'practical' matter of the added risk of
attack from HAMAS forces on shore -- they could easily launch rocket attacks
at the 'invading' warships.

Suppose those ships -were- stopped in HAMAS territorial waters, and shore-
launched weapons _sunk_ one of those humanitarian aid ships. Who would have
gotten the blame for -that- disaster? HAMAS, for attacking the 'invading'
ships (even though the missed, and caused 'friendly fire' casualties)? or
Israel for doing things "under the nose of HAMAS", and "provoking" the
rocket attack?

>I aware that Israel has difficulties, but I'm also aware that a
>considerable portion of those difficulties are the consequences of the
>choices they've made. IMO, the choices made in connection with this
>incident were poorly considered.

In a situation like that, there are *NO* 'good choices'. You either 'stick
to your guns', or you 'admit you are helpless" insofar as blocking the flow
of 'contraband' to those who have declared themselves your deadly enemy.

If you accept the blockade operation as having a valid function, the decision
to intercept and search the ships 'at some point' is understandable, and
provided for under the laws of war.

AFAIK, Israel _did_ observe the 'formalities' in declaring the blockade, it
was 'lawfully' done. Those that choose to attempt to circumvent that action,
especially *WITHOUT* the support of their government (and where the government
has specifically requested that they _not_ 'do that') have *no* basis to
expect their government to take any action 'on their behalf'.

>>> I'm not unsympathetic to Israel's problems, but really wish they'd start
>>> trying to solve them in ways that doesn't make them worse - and the same
>>> for the Palestinians.
>>
>> Letting ships that could be carrying arms (and have done so in the past)
>> run a blockade intended to prevent exactly those kinds of shipments doesn't
>> seem like excessive force.
>
>The ships ran no blockade,

What constitutes a blockade? They were instructed by warcraft to turn aside,
that they were heading for forbidden territory. To any 'reasonable person'
that would be, at a minimum, 'strongly indicative", of an approach to a
blockade.

> and there were no arms as such on the ships

Whether there _actually_ were or not, is comparatively insignificant, the
fact remains that the blockade operator _did_not_know_ whether there were
any or not. The function of a blockade is to ensure, by force _IF_NECESSARY_
that proscribed items do not pass to the 'enemy'. To do this requires checking
-everything-, to *insure* no proscribed stuff is in the shipment.

The fact is, if the 'good guys' had "nothing to hide", as they claim, they
*COULD* have voluntarily allowed the inspection, which would have established
(if you believe their claims) that there was -no- contraband aboard, and they
would have been allowed to go on their way.

GIVEN that they chose -not- do do so, one of two conclusions seems inescapable.
A) there _was_ contraband aboard.
B) the activists were MORE INTERESTED in a confrontation, than in delivering
their humanitarian supplies.

If "B", well, they got their wish.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 7:59 AM

On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:39:08 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote the following:

>On 6/1/2010 11:34 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
>> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>
>>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>>
>>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>>>
>>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>>
>>> Yep, just a bunch of peace-loving NATO civilians out for a Sunday sail:
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded>
>>>
>>> Oh, they also just happened to discuss a few thinks like, oh, jihad and
>>> martyrdom, but then, I'm sure their intentions were fully peaceful. After
>>> all, what's a few "death to the Jews!" cheers before a good boat outing?
>>>
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded>
>>
>> An Inconvenient Truth!
>
>Not inconvenient - more like irrelevant.

Absolutely NOT irrelevant, Morris. That she shrugs about life and
death, saying "We either make it or we become martyrs." is of far more
relevance to the world than the little Jew/Arab land grab in progress.

I sure wish the people of Islam would clean up their fundamentalist
mess. (Ditto the Christians, ad nauseum.)

--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin

kk

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 10:31 PM

On Mon, 31 May 2010 21:12:34 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, Han
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>IMNSHO, you will need both parties to the conflict to have a true
>>>intention to come to a solution.
>>
>> They do.
>>
>> The trouble, Part I, is that they don't have the *same* solution in mind.
>>
>> The trouble, Part II, is that the solutions they do have in mind are
>> mutually
>> incompatible: the Israelis don't appear to want much more than simply to
>> be
>> left alone,
>
>What? Left alone? To keep expanding their country?

If they're attacked again, sure they have every right to claim lands gained.
They've given most back in the false hope of peace, so I'd expect them to do
none of that in the future.

>To keep building on Palestinian territory?

There is no such thing.

>> Again, please describe what compromise you imagine to be possible under
>> these
>> circumstances. Note that "I get everything I want and you get squat" is
>> not a
>> compromise. Neither is "We'll leave you alone as soon as all of you are
>> dead".
>

Sk

Swingman

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

04/06/2010 10:12 AM

On 6/4/2010 10:04 AM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Jun 4, 2:54 am, "[email protected]"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On Jun 2, 3:48 pm, Morris Dovey<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> Well said, Karl. This is silliness, thankfully marked as OT.
>>
>>> You're welcome. :)
>>
>> You're a class guy, Morris. Actually the only reason I skimmed this
>> thread. I don't mind a well reasoned measured pondering from folks,
>> which is your hallmark.
>
> I agree completely.
>
>>
>> I just can't stand the shrill screaming of the know-it-alls when they
>> get tuned up.
>>
>> That's why I stay out of 99% of these. If I hadn't seen that spark of
>> cynical goodness from the Swinger, I wouldn't have posted at all. His
>> boyish charm is just too much to resist, dontja know...
>>
>
> *eagerly awaiting Swing's response....*

62nd anniversary of being called "boyish", since the last time ... charm
is a given. ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

05/06/2010 5:25 PM

Morris Dovey wrote:

> On 5/31/2010 11:41 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>
>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>
>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>>
>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>
>> Yep, just a bunch of peace-loving NATO civilians out for a Sunday
>> sail:
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded>
>>
>> Oh, they also just happened to discuss a few thinks like, oh, jihad
>> and
>> martyrdom, but then, I'm sure their intentions were fully peaceful.
>> After all, what's a few "death to the Jews!" cheers before a good boat
>> outing?
>>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded>
>
> Sigh. It seems true that for some (on all sides) it's all about making a
> lot of noise and the need to be 'right'. As far as I can tell, none of
> the shouting or finger-pointing has improved anything for anyone. YMMV.
>

Saw one of the best expositions of the moral equivalency being attempted
here (From Ed Morrissey at HotAir):

"Also, this episode should remind everyone that if it were up to Israel,
there would be no war. If it was up to Hamas and Fatah, there would be no
Israel. And that's the main problem with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,
and one that is irreconcilable."

Pretty succinctly captures the whole conflict.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

11/06/2010 8:08 PM

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:05:39 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote the following:

>On Jun 10, 12:04 pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On May 31, 5:02 pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > (political passion filtered out)
>>
>> > A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>> > member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>> > naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>> > and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>
>> > It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>
>> > --
>> > Morris Doveyhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>>
>> http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=5389883
>
>oops... wrong thread.

That's OK. Fark says it doesn't exist, anyway. <sigh>

--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 7:22 PM

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:47:13 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
wrote the following:

>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 6/2/2010 5:02 PM, Max wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 6/2/2010 2:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>>> On 6/1/2010 1:09 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it's "better" or not their "starvation" is the result of their
>>>>>> own choices. They know what they have to do to not starve and they'd
>>>>>> rather starve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather like the soldiers at Valley Forge "choosing" to have cold
>>>>> feet, no?
>>>>
>>>> Yep, was their choice.
>>>
>>> In that sense, everything in life is a choice.
>>
>> They chose to fight the British--nobody held a gun to their head.
>
>Exactly, I pay my income tax. No one holds a gun to my head.

Perhaps not physically, yet, but if you didn't pay, you know they'd be
at your door with their shiny new MP-5 or M-16 machine guns in short
order. ;)

The IRS CI employs 2,700 special agents who are required to "carry and
use a firearm." according to a Media Matters article.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201002040042 (first Google)

--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:22 PM

Max wrote:
>
> They have an absolute right to defend themselves. But, should the
> Allied nations of WWll claim the territory they captured during the
> war?

Certainly.

Would anyone want the lands from Morocco to Inda forcibly returned to the
Ottoman Empire? Should Ethiopia be returned to Italy? Namibia back to the
Germans?

There's 5,000 years of precedent involved here. To the victor belong the
spoils.

Sk

Swingman

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 12:57 PM

What is tragic is that so many of you, on both sides, are obviously
convinced that you can form an intelligent opinion based on what the
media has reported as fact throughout the history of this conflict.

Fools and damn fools ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

31/05/2010 9:59 PM

Morris Dovey wrote:

> On 5/31/2010 8:31 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> (political passion filtered out)
>>>
>>> A convoy of civilian passenger and cargo vessels registered in NATO
>>> member countries (Greece, Turkey, and the USA) has been attacked by the
>>> naval forces of a non-NATO country in international waters, the vessels
>>> and cargos seized, and surviving crew and passengers imprisoned.
>>>
>>> It'll be interesting to see if and how NATO responds.
>>
>> Interesting that 5 out of 6 ships voluntarily submitted to inspection
>> but the 6th did not.
>>
>> In any event, the convoy and their supporters got exactly the result
>> they wanted, didn't they?
>
> I've only heard from one of the people involved (an American and fellow
> "Aramco Brat") immediately before the ships set out to Gaza; and I
> believe that what he wanted most was to get homebuilding supplies and
> food to the people who needed them.
>
> The Israelis had not blocked all of the previous relief efforts and he
> said he was hoping that this convoy, also, would be allowed to deliver
> its cargo - but said he knew it wouldn't be a sure thing.
>
> The news media and those who imagine themselves to be "statesmen" will
> make it all about Hamas and Israel, and will spin that tangle every
> which way they can - and totally ignore the roughly one and a half
> million human beings who (by UN studies) are experiencing slowly but
> steadily declining health due to insufficient nourishment.
>
> My opinion is that one Holocaust is already too many...
>
> ...and that opinion comes without a need to attribute motivations to any
> of the participants.
>

Your friend may have had good intentions, but not everyone involved in
these "humanitarian" shipments shares those intentions.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_BTmbX6v0Q&playnext_from=TL&videos=IpxVzvG__WY&feature=sub>
If it were my territory being bombarded by rockets from Gaza, I'd be pretty
intent on making sure that supplies going through were pretty well screened.


--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

01/06/2010 7:53 AM

Robatoy wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:41 am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [ the usual snipped]
>
> So the lives of women and children in Gaza are worthless? To be
> starved and be forced to live like animals at the Zionists' whim?
>
> Do you talk to Jesus about this, Mark?
>
> As a Christian, do you condone Israel's behaviour?
>

Israel is not the culprit if any starving is going on. Israel permits
humanitarian shipments to Gaza, they just don't allow arms and munitions.
This is at variance with the Egyptian position which is to allow NO
shipments of any kind into Gaza.

Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to Morris Dovey on 31/05/2010 4:02 PM

02/06/2010 8:59 AM

Robatoy wrote:
>
> My solution? STOP sending those Zionist bastards foreign aid and
> modern weapons. Many, many Jews aren't in agreement with what the
> State Of Israel has become either. ("You can't force the Messiah to
> come!")

A. Uh, the U.S. doesn't send foreign aid to Israel. The U.S. DOES send funds
to Israel; these monies are of three kinds:

1. Loans. Israel is current on its repayment obligations.

2. Grants. Much like grants to universities: The U.S. sends money, Israel
supplies the talent and labor, they share in the results. The "Arrow" missle
(also known as the Patriot) and its recent upgrades are an example.

3. About $3 billion a year is divided between Egypt and Israel in
furtherance of the Sinai and Oslo peace accords.

B. The United States doesn't "send" modern weapons to Israel. Israel buys
them from the manufacturers (who happen to be in the U.S., i.e.,
Lockheed-Martin).

C. There are some ultra-orthodox Jews who oppose the secular state of
Israel, for just the reason you named. Some won't even use an Israeli
postage stamp! They number about twelve people in total, not the "many,
many" you claim.


You’ve reached the end of replies