Shop Wall and Electric

"Markem" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 01:50:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Having put up most of my drywall, I have left a few gaps that are too
>>big (for instance, next to my plastic electrical boxes). At least one of
>>these gaps is at least 3/8" wide (and 4" long). My current plan is to
>>"glue in" a small block of drywall using my heavier joint compound, and
>>then build that up--allowing it to dry in between layers.
>>
>>Is this approach likely to be successful (w/tape?)?
>>
>>Thank you for your thoughts.
>
> The dry 90 minute compound, 3/8 caulking backer and glass mesh tape.
> That is what I would do, hope that helps.

Nobody has said how to put the final finish on it. For the O.P.:

If you go with 90 minute stuff, you can put it on without tape, but build it
up thick enough to taper out over the original sheet rock, or it will
shurely crack out. If you don't use tape or fiberglass, it may crack,
anyway. If your technique on the 90 min. stuff, you may need to use regular
joint compound to put a final sandable finish over it. Note, if you didn't
know, the 90 min. stuff is nearly impossible to sand, at all, so get it
right, or another technique is to let it get almost completly dry, and use
the drywall blade laying down like a chisel to take off the high spots. If
you want to go that route, put extra on, but don't fall asleep at the wheel.
That stuff kicks off fast, and goes from unworkable soft to unworkable hard,
pretty quickly.

You can use 90 minute stuff with paper or fiberglass tape over the goo over
the hole. That is my personal preference, using paper tape with regular
compound over the top. It is more work, but no risk of cracking later.
Worth it to me. It is easier to get it smooth and not risk getting the
texture of the fiberglass showing though the top with using the paper tape.

If you are good and good and fast, you can use 90 minute stuff to plug the
hole, put on a thin layer over that to embed a paper tape big enough to
cover, then put a layer of 90 min. over the paper with some extra thickness
to take off to get a smooth final finish. Just do not leave extra on while
smoothing to the final finish, because you will not be happy with yourself
as you are trying to sand that extra 90 minute stuff back off.

Hope that helps, and is not so basic as to be insulting. It is the teacher
in me trying to be complete and not knowing your skill levels.
--
Jim in NC

On Jul 14, 10:37=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Steve wrote:
> > On 2010-07-14 03:38:11 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> said:
>
> >> of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one
> >> wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it.
>
> >> This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that
> >> with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can
> >> make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching
> >> it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the
> >> ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the
> >> butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask.
>
> > Having just done this project, I'd suggest leaving the strips at the to=
p
> > of the wall That's one corner taping job -- wall-to-ceiling -- you'll
> > not have to repeat.
>
> =A0 =A0Yeah, I was thinking I didn't want to have to do that.
>
>
>
> > Also, don't use the mesh tape on the horizontal wall joints. Paper tape
> > is a bit more reisistant to display hairline cracks down the center of
> > the joint.
>
> Glad to hear that. =A0I already bought some paper tape, so I'm glad to
> hear it's a good choice. =A0As my drywall cutting is a bit irregular, I'm
> sure I'll be making good use of the tape!
>
> BTW, my Harbor Freight Rotary tool gave up the ghost today. =A0It stopped
> and started smoking. But I have to give the tool more credit than I was
> going to when I first started with it--it and it's little cutting
> attachments (that you have to buy separately) cut almost 100' of 1/2"
> drywall. That was all I ever used the tool for and I'm going to replace
> it (currently on sale for $17.99).

Huh? You're cutting drywall (100') with the rotary tool? Score,
break, and cut the paper. RotoZips are nice for cutting holes in
drywall but make a hell of a mess! A multi-tool would be a better
choice for most cuts (My RotoZip was useful in exposing a leaking pipe
recently, without causing more problems than it solved).

> BTW, the Stanley 62-piece screw-bit set I mentioned a few days ago is on
> sale for 5.49 (instead of 12.99) at Menards this Fri/Sat/Sun according
> to the circular that arrived in the mail today.

Most of those sets aren't worth the aggravation.

On Jun 3, 1:13=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6/3/2010 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
> > is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
> > as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?
>
> A common builder's ploy is to designate a space, that could conceivably
> be used as a closet by an owner in the future, as a "machine room" on
> any architectural drawings.
>
> It's not like an inspector is going to make a surprise visit, or even
> care after a final inspection is passed, to see what a homeowner
> ultimately does with the space in his house.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

My buddy built a Post & Beam house a few years ago. He put in a sunken
dining room, a few steps lower than the kitchen.

Going around the room, counter clockwise, one "wall" was the back of
the cabinets under the kitchen counter, the next wall was a finished
exterior wall, the next was floor to ceiling windows, and the last
wall...well, there wasn't a last wall, it was open to the living room.
A beautiful fan & light hung from the ceiling.

He had put receptacles in the "kitchen" wall and the finished exterior
wall, but hadn't gotten around to boreing out the beam under the
windows for any receptacles on that wall. His construction loan was
running out and he had to get an electrical inspection before he could
transition to a regular mortgage.

So he's standing in the kitchen with the inspector, blueprints on the
counter, looking down over the dining room. The inspector says "That's
the dining room. You need receptacles every six feet. There are no
receptacles under the windows. What's up?" My buddy says, in all
seriousness, "Oh, we changed the layout. That's a closet."

The inspector says "Well, you don't need receptacles every six feet in
a closet. You're all set."

On Jun 5, 9:45=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Jack Stein <jbste..=
[email protected]> wrote:

> >I could have all my tools on the same circuit EXCEPT the dust collector
> >and air compressor, since they are the only ones that run at the same
> >time as my other tools.
>
> You use pneumatic tools and the table saw at the same time?
>
> Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in use,

Or, you can dust the saw off with the airgun between cuts... or
even, for heavy use, maybe direct a bolt-in air nozzle at the saw's
teeth
inside the table saw housing. A drill, saw, or router can benefit
from
airblast chip removal as well as from dust collection. If you want
to be creative,
consider air-powered clamps and vises, too.

Swingman <[email protected]> writes:
>On 6/1/2010 4:34 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>> Compressors are a strange beast, since they may start at anytime the pressure
>> switch hits some threshold (yet again, I've got mine on a dedicated 120v/20A
>> breaker).
>
>I run mine on a 120v non-dedicated circuit that, being in a garage
>"shop" on residential property, is required by local code to be GFCI
>protected, but I've never had any trouble with the setup at all.

IIRC if you use a NEMA L5-20P on that circuit, the GFCI isn't required. That
was the approach I took (since I'm also in the garage).

scott

Are they part of Canada for this purpose?


"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
http://www.gothereguide.com/Montreal+Traffic+Light-picture,montreal/

Ok, it is Quebec, but there you have it.
--


On 6/09/10 4:45 PM, Josepi wrote:
> I don't think I have ever seen a traffic light turned sideways in
> Canuckistan
> The Red is always a larger lens.
>

On Jul 10, 7:38=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> RonB wrote:
> > Comments or suggestions welcome. =A0In fact, all I seek is a simple nod=
.
> > Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
> > understanding)!
>
> > Dear Bill:
>
> > 566 (excuse me 567) posts.
>
> > Have your reached a point of understanding yet?
>
> > Does anyone else have the patience to click back to this original post
> > to see what the topic was?
>
> > Ron
>
> I believe I actually started the thread originally and then restarted it
> a few months later. =A0I think the main question you should ask yourself
> is: Did you learn anything or were you just counting?
>
> Bill

I was not being critical. It just amazed me that a post could draw
this many posts.

RonB

On Jul 10, 8:12=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> RonB wrote:
> > I was not being critical. =A0It just amazed me that a post could draw
> > this many posts.
>
> Cool! =A0 A nice non-critical post is nice to read! =A0 : )
>
>
>
> > RonB

I know. I am on old fart but I'm behaving at the moment. The other
interesting thing about this string is it seems to be staying close to
topic (with a few excursions of course).


RonB

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote

> 2) Add more Durabond 90 to reduce the angle now, getting it almost flat,
> and then tape it with additional all-purpose joint compound.

Almost. Tape, with 90, sor of following the jog with the tape. Then fill
almost level for at least a foot out onto the low board with 90 as the fill
material.

Then finish with all purpose to make more taper and refine the finish.

You should have asked about this one first. Adding some wedges on top of 2
x 4 and under the rock is the right way to handle that situation, even if it
means popping some nails loose on the old sheets to get the shims in. Too
late now.
--
Jim in NC

Troll bait.


"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Bare neutral instead of ground.
No mention of proper tagging of the white as a hot.

For a pure 220V circuit it may be safe, but the bare is a ground, and
wrap red tape on the ends of the white so it is *really* obvious if
someone else ever opens that box.
--


On 7/06/10 12:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> FrozenNorth<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 7/06/10 12:04 AM, Dr.Deb wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> You can run 10ga if you want, but regular romex works just as well. The
>>> up
>>> side is that you do not have to buy any special wire. The white and
>>> black
>>> are both hot and the bare wire is your neutral. I have my tablesaw,
>>> lathe
>>> and welder wired that way and have had for quite some time.
>>>
>>> Deb
>>>
>> No inspections in your pat of town obviously, that is dangerous.
>>
> Oh?
>
> Please explain, in detail, exactly what you imagine is dangerous.

On Aug 12, 12:13=A0am, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
> > "Bill"<[email protected]> =A0wrote
>
> >> I just have about 25% of the sheetrock left to put up. =A0I was going =
to
> >> work on it the last two nights (late at night), but after getting my h=
ead
> >> baked doing yard work I couldn't bring myself to do it. =A0Thanks for =
the
> >> pep-talk! =A0I'll try not to disappoint! =A0: )
>
> > =A0 Don't kill yourself, though. =A0It will get done as you are able.
>
> Yep, I just about finished it--only 1 more full-sheet to put up and I'll
> wait til tomorrow when I can get a little help.
>
> > Good luck. =A0Ask any more questions as they come up.
>
> Thank you very much! =A0Unfortunately, from this point, I think I'm going
> to learn most of my lessons the hard way!
>
> I do have one question: Would you sand to 150 or 220 grit? =A0At the stor=
e
> I was at, they were out of 150 so I bought the 220, but I'm wondering
> whether I might regret that. =A0 I also have some 120 grit to sand my
> setting compound.

I would sand to 220 and forget the 120. I tend to take too much off
anyway. I suggest the drywall sanding screens rather than sandpaper,
too. For $20 or so you can buy a sanding screen attachment for a shop
vac that'll suck up all the dust, too.

Robatoy wrote:

> Hence using the stuff horizontally whenever possible.

That does not eliminate the butt joint issue. It only moves it.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jun 9, 10:47=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]=
.com>, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >re: "older people loose red sensing"
>
> >Yeah, but the *position* of each light doesn't change.
>
> In places where there's low clearance (e.g. traffic light just on the oth=
er
> side of a bridge), the lights will be laid sideways. Is red on the left, =
or
> the right?

Yes. ;-) (Left)

[email protected] wrote:

>
> A compressor can come on at any time.
>

Not really. It will only come on if the pressure drops below the cut in
pressure. Quite predictable actually.


>> Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in
>> use, but
>> remember that "best practice" is to shut the compressor down and
>> drain the
>> water at the end of the day. If it cycles on, when not in use, once
>> a day,
>> then you have a pretty considerable air leak somewhere.
>
> Are you saying that you never use your compressor in the same day as
> your saw?

No, but his point is valid. The compressor is not going to come on just
because it's sitting there. If you're not using it to drain down the
pressure, it's not going to come on unless you have a leak. Best to fix the
leak.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!


Dear Bill:

566 (excuse me 567) posts.

Have your reached a point of understanding yet?

Does anyone else have the patience to click back to this original post
to see what the topic was?


Ron

Robatoy wrote:

>>
>> But you get to use 12' sheets.
>
> Or 16'...and the odd 20'

Ouch and bigger ouch...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jun 3, 9:43=A0am, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 3, 7:00=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Bill" <Bill_NOS...@comcast.=
net> wrote:
>
> > >Doug,
>
> > >This is the statement I was able to find:
>
> > Where?
>
> > >"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or i=
nside
> > >the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
> > >building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a cle=
ar
> > >area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from =
floor
> > >to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters=
,
> > >appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
> > >bathrooms."
>
> > Right. The purpose of this language is to ensure that there is adequate=
space
> > in front of the panel for an electrician to stand while servicing the
> > equipment. Basically, it means that you can't park crap on the floor in=
front
> > of your electrical panel.
>
> > >Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the mai=
n
> > >panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)? =A0
>
> > No.
>
> > >I was under the impression
> > >it was permissable to do this but am having trouble resolving it with =
the
> > >statement above.
>
> > Why? A subpanel beside the main doesn't intrude into the working space =
at all.
>
> > >Also, doesn't the statement above say something about how close one ma=
y
> > >place a duplex outlet?
>
> > Nope.
>
> 2 wording questions:
>
> "The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
> inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
> to the building."

Interesting. My main breaker panel is in the attic (unfinished space
over the garage) at pretty much the opposite end of the house as the
service entrance.

> If the service panel is mounted outside the dwelling, then the service
> conductors never *enter* the building, do they?
>
> Assuming, of course, that the dwelling and the building are the same
> entity.
>
> "Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets..."
>
> Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
> is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
> as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

On Jun 3, 7:00=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "Bill" <[email protected]=
t> wrote:
>
> >Doug,
>
> >This is the statement I was able to find:
>
> Where?
>
>
>
> >"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or ins=
ide
> >the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
> >building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a clear
> >area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from fl=
oor
> >to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters,
> >appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
> >bathrooms."
>
> Right. The purpose of this language is to ensure that there is adequate s=
pace
> in front of the panel for an electrician to stand while servicing the
> equipment. Basically, it means that you can't park crap on the floor in f=
ront
> of your electrical panel.
>
>
>
> >Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the main
> >panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)? =A0
>
> No.
>
> >I was under the impression
> >it was permissable to do this but am having trouble resolving it with th=
e
> >statement above.
>
> Why? A subpanel beside the main doesn't intrude into the working space at=
all.
>
>
>
> >Also, doesn't the statement above say something about how close one may
> >place a duplex outlet?
>
> Nope.

2 wording questions:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

If the service panel is mounted outside the dwelling, then the service
conductors never *enter* the building, do they?

Assuming, of course, that the dwelling and the building are the same
entity.

"Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets..."

Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

On Jul 15, 8:27=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected].=
com>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Huh? =A0You're cutting drywall (100') with the rotary tool? =A0Score,
> >break, and cut the paper. =A0RotoZips are nice for cutting holes in
> >drywall but make a hell of a mess! =A0A multi-tool would be a better
> >choice for most cuts (My RotoZip was useful in exposing a leaking pipe
> >recently, without causing more problems than it solved).
>
> I think you misunderstand, Keith. He's cutting drywall that's already on =
the
> wall, so that he can remove it.

Oh, I misunderstood. That's even worse! Dust city! <cough, sputter,
wheeze>

Just pull the nails, slice the tape with a knife, and take it down in
pieces as large as possible. Then score, break, cut as normal to get
it into easily manageable pieces.

...unless he's planning on reusing it. ;-)

On Jun 9, 1:31=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 10:39=A0am, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 6, 5:45=A0pm, [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
>
> > > Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >In article
> > > ><[email protected]>,
> > > >[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
> > > >>In article <[email protected]>,
> > > >>Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>In article <[email protected]>, Swingm=
an
> > > >>><[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>>On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> > > >>>[...]
> > > >>>>> Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installat=
ions. You
> > > >> have
> > > >>>>> no idea.
>
> > > >>>>Ayup!!
>
> > > >>>>BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug! =A0:)
>
> > > >>>Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...
>
> > > >>Don't work with A/C ower then. =A0it's *RE*VOLTING*. =A0 =A0 <groan=
>
>
> > > >I'm shocked that I didn't see that coming.
>
> > > "No mho" says Tom, without reluctance.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > These jokes are beyond my capacitance. They amply deserve to be
> > inducted into the Groaner Hall Of Fame.
>
> Say watt? =A0You should be kicked in the shorts for that.- Hide quoted te=
xt -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm open to other suggestions than a kick in the shorts.

I would resist that with all of my power.

Please relay that to all involved.

> > Bill
>
> Don't feel too defensive - it's kind of like a couple of guys sitting aro=
und
> talking. =A0Nothing of an attack.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]

That is kinda what I thought when I made my original comment. I'll
butt out now.

And if you look at my profile I AM NOT a troll. Been hanging around
here for 8-10 years and have contributed.

Keep the string going.


RonB

On Jun 2, 5:58=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "Bill" <[email protected]=
t> wrote:
>
> >"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...

> >I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. =A0There are folks here who don't believe I sho=
uld be
> >doing anything to any walls that have any live wires in them!
>
> Wusses. <g>
>
> If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires
> inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend
> through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wir=
e
> will simply move out of the way.
>
This is one place a Roto-Zip works wonders. I had a similar situation
with plumbing known to be behind the wall (the builder stuck the
mounting hardware through the main drain line from the upstairs
bathroom). Set the Roto-Zip depth to 1/2" and have at it. Finish with
knife.

Roto-Zips make a mess, but the cuttings are larger than a lot of saws
so it's easier to clean up.

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I believe I actually started the thread originally and then
>>> restarted it a few months later. I think the main question you
>>> should ask yourself is: Did you learn anything or were you just
>>> counting?
>>
>> Come on Bill - that's not even close to a right question.
>
> I suppose that you think the right question is "How well does Bill
> understand?". If you really want to know, maybe you could ask Doug?
> Doug mentioned the other day that Bill is careful about "playing with
> fire" (my words), and that is a fair statement. I even play with fire
> in the right shoes! You might ask Doug about what I had done Before
> he arrived.

Nope - don't think that at all.

>
> If I incorrectly guessed what you think is the right question, you'll
> have to tell me (I can't read your mind..).
>

I wasn't saying that I thought there was a right question, Bill.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

>
> Mine will cycle about once a week, maybe two. Connectors are not
> perfect, particularly if not mated.

You are correct in saying that connectors are not perfect, in fact, they go
bad with age. Once they start leaking, it's time to replace them. Mine get
a tremendous amount of use and I get a few (don't really know how many...)
years out of them before I have to replace them. Just don't buy the CH junk
that places like HD sell. Good connectors last considerably longer than
those. But even good ones have to be replaced from time to time.

>
>> If you
>> have leaks, you should address that. There's just no reason that
>> you should have them. As for the compressor kicking on - maybe some
>> of us are more sensitive to sudden noises than others, but my
>> compressor does not make me jump when it kicks in.
>
> Crap. Jumping has nothing to do with it. We were talking about not
> having them on the same circuit!

Sorry - I know the topic has been about loads on circuits. I think I let
the back of my mind creep forward as I read people posting about compressors
cutting in while cutting a board, etc. and anticipated the conversation
turning to the surprise factor. My bad.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Please consider the following non-standard mudding problem:
>
> Two pieces of drywall meet unevenly (old and new) with perhaps up to
> 5/16" difference in the height of their surfaces. You could even
> imagine a few gaps almost 1/2" wide between them, but these have been
> filled with Durabond 90, the difference in height mitigated at the
> same time. There is no Durabond 90 on the higher surface.
>
> Imagine that at the present state, the Durabond compound forms about a
> 40 degree angle from the lower to the upper piece of drywall.
>
> I have about 50-60 feet of drywall joints in this condition (as a
> result of my decision not to remove my drywall up to the ceiling)!
>
>
> What is my next best move (multiple choice)?
>
> 1) Tape the joint now with all-purpose joint compound, and
> reduce/feather the angle with additional joint and finishing compound
> on top of the tape. (It would practically be like taping an outside
> corner of 130 degrees)
>
> 2) Add more Durabond 90 to reduce the angle now, getting it almost
> flat, and then tape it with additional all-purpose joint compound.
>
> 3) Something else (PLEASE don't say, hire a professional! : ) ).
>

My previous reply... or,

If the old drywall is 1/2", then construct a deadman and re-secure the old
to the trusses (rafters). If both old and new sheetrock are the same
thickness and there is a step like that, it's likely the old has sagged and
needs to be re-secured. Think of this job like sex - screw a lot...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 6/3/2010 2:07 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> I did the following to mine:
>
> (1) Double the number of 120 outlets
> (2) use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations (dahikt)
> (3) Put ALL electrical in conduit on outside of walls.
>
>
> The reason for the external wiring is that every shop
> tends to get moved around from time to time and you
> can move stuff MUCH easier with it in conduit.

You can even move the conduit, with receptacles still wired, from shop
to shop ... DAMHIKT. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 6/3/2010 1:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> The inspector says "Well, you don't need receptacles every six feet in
> a closet. You're all set."

Common sense quite often dictates what passes and what doesn't ... a
recessed light in an 8' ceiling above a shower will fail in most
locales, on a 9' ceiling above a shower and it will pass, but be
prepared to prove it to each and every inspector.

Then again you can get away with a lot when an inspector can't read a
set of plans, particularly an electrical plan ... almost always have to
correct some inspectors when it comes to "dead" three way switches,
particularly when they operate lights on different floors ... like with
balcony and porch lights. :)

One of my favorites is municipalities that dictate where HVAC returns
can be. Some Z&P boards don't want old folks standing on chairs to
change an AC filter, so specify they can be a maximum of 48" above a
floor or landing. Others are perfectly happy if you put it on a 10'
ceiling ... although the owners may then finally appreciate just how
farking stupid your architect is. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Puckdropper wrote:

>
> I don't have a big compressor, so I've got to ask... Is it probable
> that the drop in temperature (say of 20-30F) and resulting drop in
> pressure could cause the compressor to kick on?

No. But I'd ask you a question - have you even ever experienced this in
your current configuration? All right - to be fair, if your compressor
*just happened* to be sitting *right at the cut in pressure* and a fraction
of a pound of pressure change due to temperature changes happened, then yes,
there *could* be a possible chance that your compressor might fire up
unexpectedly. Not all that likely though.

>
> I've had my little one down to the threshold several times, where just
> plugging in a nailer (usually a big one) or shooting a couple of brads
> causes the compressor to come on.
>

But that is much different. In that case, you actually used your
compressor. The discussion underway is about a compressor that is simply
sitting there - not being used.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Doug Miller" wrote
>>
> Thanks for asking. He's doing pretty well, has one year of college under
> his
> belt now, and is working two jobs this summer to earn money for the fall
> semester. He's also about half-way through a fairly ambitious project on
> his
> car ('96 Firebird, 3600 V6): swapping out the automatic transmission for a
> five-speed stick. Car's up on jackstands in the garage now. I'll be
> helping
> him put the manual transmission in there tomorrow evening after he gets
> home
> from work.
>
A pontiac firebird, eh? A classic muscle car. And since pontiacs are now an
endabgered species, it will probably be worth some money someday.

Tell him to take care of it and it will turn into an investment of sorts one
of these days.

And he is one of the good ones. He is gonna make you proud of him, again and
again.

"Doug Miller" wrote:

> Chicago, for example, has some requirements
> that go waaaay beyond what the NEC demands.
-----------------------------------
Way back when it was known as "Hogan's code" in honor of the chief
electrical inspector.

Panel boards had to be switch and fuse since Hogan would not accept
molded case c'bkrs.

This was for industrial, not residential.

There were all kind of cute things Hogan demanded and got, all of
whiuch just increased the cost, not necessarily benefit.


Lew

RE: GFI pricing

There are two ways to a GFI device, a C'bkr that gets mounted in a
panel or a receptacle that goes into a wall box.

Both have the same "smarts".

The C'bkr GFI is manufactured by the Circuit Protective Device
industry.

The receptacle GFI is manufactured by the Wiring Device industry.

The two are totally different businesses.

Different cost structures, different marketing methods, etc, etc.

There is significantly more price pressure on wiring device products
than on circuit protective products.

Lew

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Luigi Zanasi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:9ca52b6c-e329-4a93-bc9a-
>
> Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:
>
> 5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?
>
> As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says...
>
>
>
> Luigi Zanasi, I see you pasted from something called
> "rec.woodworking's Antifaq". I never saw it referenced here before.
> Since you didn't post any of your own words, unless you wrote the
> Antifaq, what point were you trying to make? Sorry, if your post was
> intended as a joke--sometime humor passes by me unnoticed as such.
>
> Best,
> Bill
>
>

Luigi seems to be the keeper of the Anti-FAQ. Read it when you've got
time, it's well worth it. (Be sure to clear the space between your
tongue and cheek--you'll need it.)

Btw, at the bottom of the Anti-FAQ there's a copyright note:
Real copyright:
Copyright (c)1998-2005 by Luigi Zanasi all rights reserved. You can't
copy this thing for any reason. It's now mine, mine, mine, mine,
mine. I stole it fair & square. Neener neener!

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Swingman" wrote
>
> There are enough crooks and fly-by-nights in this business that will leave
> your butt in danger in a heartbeat that you need every advantage you can
> garner from the getgo ... .. the average person does not have a clue.
>
How true.

The last house I lived in was "remodeled" by the village idiot. Shortly
after moving in I found a melting florescent fixture. That scared the hell
out of me. I immediatley shut it off at the fuse box and went nuts running
around the house and upgrading the electrical fixures, outlets, etc.

I remember the real estate agent talking about how there was a new
electrical panel installed. But they kept all the old wiring. I came very
close to having my house burn down.

If I would have just fixed that one fixture, the house would have burned
down. I replaced several ballasts. Also a fair number of light switches,
outlets and two light fixtures. And ALL of them were visibly dangerous.

Now I am an electrical safety freak. I never forgot that experience. It had
a permanent effect on me. I even do repairs for friends and family. I have
a number of electrical books, visual guides, etc. No formal training, but I
did go to electronic technician school for a year.

Funny story. The first electrical repair I ever did was for a friend of a
friend who was a fellow student. She was older than me, but totally sexy.
She needed a number of light switches and outlets replaced. I did not have a
clue how to do it. But she was so hot, I just had to try. Being young, dumb
and horny, I would have done almost anything for her.

So.o.o.o.o.o.o.ooo, I replaced them. And I shocked myself numerous times.
After I did the repairs, I was miserable from numerous shocks. She took pity
on me, served me a couple drinks and "thanked" me properly. I had a silly
grin on my face for two days afterwards.

And I learned an important lesson. I got some tools, some books and learned
how to do the repairs safely. After all, you never knew when another hot
babe would need electrical repairs. LOL

MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Does the NEC really cover every dumba$$ action by every brainless
>> idiot
>> on earth.
>> It would have to be the size of an encyclopedia, wouldn't it?
------------------------------------
"Swingman" wrote:

> LOL ... damn close.
>
> Fact is, Mike ... it's a good thing. Residential electrical codes
> have saved many a catastrophe since being implemented.
>
> If you think about how deadly electricity can be, and how close the
> business end is to you on a daily basis, be thankful it is as
> comprehensive as it tries to be.
>
> There are enough crooks and fly-by-nights in this business that will
> leave your butt in danger in a heartbeat that you need every
> advantage you can garner from the getgo ... .. the average person
> does not have a clue.
===============================
To really appreciate the NEC, you have to understand where it comes
from.

It was developed and is administered by the NFPA for the sole purpose
of minimizing building fire potential.

It was never intended to protect utilization equipment, but rather the
distribution system as it relates to fire prevention of structures.

Lew

[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

> Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
> could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
> take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.
> More of a consideration in a 'more than one person' shop, but it's
> along the same lines as why you don't put _anything_ else on the
> 'lighting' circuit -- localize the 'surprise factor' as much as
> possible.
>

*snip*

Many of the GFCI outlets I've seen have a little indicator light that
turns on when tripped. Simplifes the whole "did my lamp burn out or is
the outlet dead?" question. Just another small reason to use GFCI
outlets.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> No, but his point is valid. The compressor is not going to come on
> just because it's sitting there. If you're not using it to drain down
> the pressure, it's not going to come on unless you have a leak. Best
> to fix the leak.
>

I don't have a big compressor, so I've got to ask... Is it probable that
the drop in temperature (say of 20-30F) and resulting drop in pressure
could cause the compressor to kick on?

I've had my little one down to the threshold several times, where just
plugging in a nailer (usually a big one) or shooting a couple of brads
causes the compressor to come on.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Puckdropper wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't have a big compressor, so I've got to ask... Is it probable
>> that the drop in temperature (say of 20-30F) and resulting drop in
>> pressure could cause the compressor to kick on?
>
> No. But I'd ask you a question - have you even ever experienced this
> in your current configuration? All right - to be fair, if your
> compressor *just happened* to be sitting *right at the cut in
> pressure* and a fraction of a pound of pressure change due to
> temperature changes happened, then yes, there *could* be a possible
> chance that your compressor might fire up unexpectedly. Not all that
> likely though.

I've never experienced it. The temperature in my garshop tends to be
relatively stable (within 10 degrees F) so there's just not enough change
in a small tank to make a difference.

I wasn't sure about the average pressure/temperature change in the larger
tanks, sometimes size makes a significant difference.

>>
>> I've had my little one down to the threshold several times, where
>> just plugging in a nailer (usually a big one) or shooting a couple of
>> brads causes the compressor to come on.
>>
>
> But that is much different. In that case, you actually used your
> compressor. The discussion underway is about a compressor that is
> simply sitting there - not being used.
>

No disagreement there. I'm just pointing out that mine's been close to
the cut off point a few times and hasn't kicked on while I've been out
there.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:

> I hate to see the Alto signs in the U.S. - English is the language
> of the land
> and government. The law (immigration) states learning English as a
> step into
> citizenship. Even if 'Latins' are here for a lark or work - they
> should learn
> the language.
-----------------------------------------
I'm in agreement; however, was having a discussion with my mechanic,
himself an immigrant who became a citizen, and asked him why it seemed
so difficult for so many Mexican immigrants to learn and use American
English?

His answer provided some insight.

"Lew, you have to understand that most of these people are
functionally illiterate in their native language."

"They can neither read nor write Spanish so they have a high hill to
climb to try to learn to read and write English, especially after they
have become adults."

As I said, provides a different perspective.

Lew

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I think you have a certain influx population to thank for that.
>
> There are signs here that read, "left turn yields on green." Um...
> duh!?
>
> What's next, "Don't drive though intersection while light is red?"
>
>

There's one intersection where most traffic turns one direction or the
other. Such a sign may be a reminder that traffic actually goes straight
once in a while.

That intersection doesn't have such a sign.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Hoosierpopi" wrote:

> Dedicated 240VAC Circuits using 10GA is what I would suggest.
---------------------------------------
#10AWG /W/ 2P-30A c'bkr will provide the lowest cost of ownership over
the life of the system for 240VAC circuits.

Same can be said for #12AWG /W/ 1P-20A c'bkr for 120VAC circuits.

Lew

FrozenNorth <[email protected]> wrote in news:i0u6ve$9u8$1
@news.eternal-september.org:

>
> There is also the unwritten rule of putting outlets at about 50" above
> the floor, so sheet goods will not block access to them.
>

It's not a rule, but it's definitely written. It's one of my favorite
"DOs" when someone asks about outlet placement and the like. (I suggest
54" to be sure the whole box clears if the installer measured from the
top.)

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Dr.Deb" wrote:

> You can run 10ga if you want, but regular romex works just as well.
--------------------------------
"Romex" does not define wire gauge, but rather a type of
multi-conductor cable and insulation system.

10-2 /W/ ground Romex is readily available.
----------------------------------
> The up
> side is that you do not have to buy any special wire.
----------------------------
See above.
--------------------------
> The white and
> black
> are both hot and the bare wire is your neutral. I have my tablesaw,
> lathe
> and welder wired that way and have had for quite some time.
---------------------------------
I have to ask, what are the 120V loads on your tablesaw and welder?

If you truly have the bare earth ground conductor wired as a neutral
conductor, you have an unsafe condition waiting to bite you in the
ass.

OTOH, if you using the bare earth ground conductor for it's intended
purpose, you are good to go.

Lew

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Bill wrote:
>
>> This makes me curious as to what it takes to drive an auger bit (the
>> salesman at Home Depot spoke so highly of them).
>>
>
> By the way, this is the bit I used. Maybe not an auger bit depending
> on your definition:
>
> http://www.irwin.com/tools/drill-bits/standard-length-speedbor-max-spad
> e-bits
>
> I think I would have had this problem with any bit having
> screw-threads on the tip (which make it eager to bite).
>

I've found that some of those screw tips pull the bit through the wood
way too aggressively and the cutting head doesn't have time to keep up.
A bit actually *needs* to slip to deal with changes in the wood.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 2010-07-14 03:38:11 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> said:

> of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one
> wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it.
>
> This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that
> with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can
> make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching
> it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the
> ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the
> butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask.

Having just done this project, I'd suggest leaving the strips at the
top of the wall That's one corner taping job -- wall-to-ceiling --
you'll not have to repeat.

Also, don't use the mesh tape on the horizontal wall joints. Paper tape
is a bit more reisistant to display hairline cracks down the center of
the joint.

On 2010-07-22 16:54:28 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> said:

> Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff
> between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been
> put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to
> worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable?
>
> Bill

1. Wear long sleeves and gloves while installing. Survey says: don't
wash your work clothes with the rest of the laundry, and rinse out the
washer after the load of fiberglass-contaminated work clothes. (Did not
follow this last instuction myself, and nobody bitched. YMMV.)

2. Cut the runs to length with a utility knife. Clamp the batts between
two boards -- kneeling on the top board with the bottom one resting on
the floor works pretty well -- you can slash the fiberglass with a pass
or two of the knife. I just made a rough mark on the floor the proper
distance from a wall, plopped down my boards, and rolled the fiberglass
out. If you're near the mark, it's close enough.

3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is
because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be
obvious...)

3. It's stable. But you want to get to the drywall right away if only
because it's the next stage in the process. Do point out item 1 above
to the kids, and tell 'em they'll itch as bad as if they had poison ivy
if they touch anything in the garage. Most of them will clear out and
give you a wide berth, but there's always gonna be this one kid...

5. Coincidentally, according to a story on NPR today, global warming
has lead to a bumper crop of poison ivy (and its first appearance in
our yard this year -- I'm still waiting to break out), and the golden
marmot population that has swelled to 3X the usual number.

Steve <[email protected]> wrote in news:4c490ae7$0$4989
[email protected]:

*snip*

> 3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is
> because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be
> obvious...)
>

*snip*

It also says it should be covered and the backing not left exposed. It's
right on the backing, and still it gets left exposed. (I've got a piece
in a utility room that was never covered. Gotta do that some time.)

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

Bill wrote:

> Having put up most of my drywall, I have left a few gaps that are too
> big (for instance, next to my plastic electrical boxes). At least one of
> these gaps is at least 3/8" wide (and 4" long). My current plan is to
> "glue in" a small block of drywall using my heavier joint compound, and
> then build that up--allowing it to dry in between layers.
>
> Is this approach likely to be successful (w/tape?)?
>
> Thank you for your thoughts.
>
> Bill

for a 3/8" gap I'd just use some "Durabond 90" with tape to fill the
area and forget about the small blocks of drywall.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Markem wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 01:50:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Having put up most of my drywall, I have left a few gaps that are too
>>big (for instance, next to my plastic electrical boxes). At least one of
>>these gaps is at least 3/8" wide (and 4" long). My current plan is to
>>"glue in" a small block of drywall using my heavier joint compound, and
>>then build that up--allowing it to dry in between layers.
>>
>>Is this approach likely to be successful (w/tape?)?
>>
>>Thank you for your thoughts.
>
>
> The dry 90 minute compound, 3/8 caulking backer and glass mesh tape.
> That is what I would do, hope that helps.
>
> Mark

I find glass mesh tape to be a PITA. Get too close when sanding and it
feathers up causing a real problem trying to cover it.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Bill wrote:


>
> Ah, that Durabond 90 seems to be good stuff! <sigh...>
>
> I've used it as a "prefill" in gaps that are as wide as 1/2", in many
> cases shaving the side of the drywall at a slight angle to encourage the
> compound to stay put forever.
>
> The main question I have now concerns whether using Durabond as a
> prefill has given me sufficient strength. I'm trying to decide whether
> to tape with Durabond on top of my prefill, or to tape with an alternate
> (more sandable) setting compound. Are there some rules of thumb I can
> use to help me decide?

Use the regular joint compound to finish the seam. Your sanding arm
will appreciate it.

>
> The most critical locations are probably those around some of my
> electrical boxes. I assume to use up to 4 pieces of tape bounding the
> box, overlapped at the corners. Would you consider using 4 pieces
> anyway, for symmetry, even if you only filled one to three sides?

I only tape the side with the gap but feather out the mud across the
box. Once dry "block sand" to insure a flat surface for the cover to sit
properly.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

> Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> There's certainly a lot of satisfaction in doing it yourself, isn't
>> there?
>
>
>
> Yes there is (and it's difficult to put a price on it). I'll share a
> related thought/problem. I feel that my neighbor, who is a journeyman
> plumber (goodly employed), has been implicitly fighting me every step of
> the way: That I should have a pro do this, that I should have a pro do
> that... Below are some examples:
>
> -"I think the trades, all of them, should be left to the pros"
> -"I don't touch electricity"
> -"It will be too hard (for you) to cut out the holes (in the drywall),
> the pros know where they go and how big they should be"
> ....
>
> When I mentioned that I thought I was getting pretty good with the
> drywall saw, he mentioned that the pros use a router/rotozip tool. I
> asked him if he had one and he said it was loaned out. And when I asked
> him, he could not seem to make up his mind whether he knew how to do
> drywall or not. He has an immaculately done kitchen area, so I think he
> has lots of skills. I found it irritating that he couldn't make up his
> mind whether he knew how to do drywall or not--never did get the answer
> to that one. When I suggested I was probably making about $5/hour in
> doing my own work, he said it was probably more like $1/hour. "A pro
> could tape my garage in 2 hours." He did say that my drywall
> installation looked "pretty good for a first time".
>
> In the year that I've lived here, he's barely shared any tidbit of
> knowledge at all. It feels like he's standing guard protecting any and
> all secrets of those who work in the trades. He does contract work
> himself, so I have wondered whether he was hoping for my business (I
> know he did several plumbing/sewage-related projects for the previous
> owners).
>
> My wife says because of the type of work he does, he doesn't want to
> come home and think about it--it's too closely related. And maybe so,
> because he never offered to lend a hand--or offered only after I was
> finished.
>
> Are there trade unions, or the like, that encourage the sort of attitude
> I've described above? I'm glad the attitude above is not present on the
> Wreck. Suggestions accepted (too). BTW, he's a decent family person
> and a good neighbor who doesn't play loud rock music late at night--no
> offense to those here who like to play loud music late at night (myself
> included).
>
> Bill

I sounds tp me that your neighbor is telling you to hire a pro to insure
he doesn't get roped into helping.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

On 2010-08-19 22:15:21 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> said:

> What is my next best move (multiple choice)?

Crown moulding!

In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> You should install _at least_ twice as many 120V outlets as you think
> you need. I'm kicking myself for having installed only three 240V
> outlets in my 16x20 shop, but I do have enough 120V outlets (fourteen
> duplex receptacles).

No matter how many you put in there never seems to be enough or one in
quite the right place.

> I have found it particularly useful to have a ceiling-mounted 120V
> outlet with a drop cord on a retractor. It worked so well in the shop
> that I put another one in the garage, plugged into the other half of the
> duplex receptacle that powers the garage door opener.

I have a row of outlets running down the centre of the ceiling in my
garage/workshop.

In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> which, as I understand it, is pretty common practice in the UK, which
> makes his ignorance of the purpose of branch circuit overcurrent
> protection even less excusable.

Yup.

Unless you have some pretty hefty machinery, about the only things you'll
find "hard-wired" in a UK home are an electric cooker or water heater*.
All else is via "13 amp" plug and socket. The plug top houses a fuse of
maximum rating 13A (hence the name) but you can get fuses as low as 1A.

Now, remembering that everything here is nominally 240V (avoids many of
the complications I read here and elsewhere about the system in the
States), 13A gives you up to around 3kW, which is a fairly sustantial load.

The common way of feeding such sockets is on a "ring main", where the power
feed leaves the consumer unit, loops via every socket on the circuit and
back to the consumer unit, using 2.5 mm sq twin and earth cable, protected
with a 30 or 32A fuse or circuit breaker in the consumer unit. However, I
understand that in new builds, radial circuits are finding favour once more.

The system normally works well but in a workshop, if you have got a lot of
"big stuff" that might be running at the same time, one has to wire
appropriatly

*Oops! forgot the electric shower.

Bill wrote:
> I shouldn't have the least worry about threading a 12-2 romex cable
> through 3/4" holes, and back through the same holes, should I?
> Nothing else will be in the holes. The issue that bothered me (a
> little) is knowing that both cables would always be used at the same
> time. I'm going to try out my new auger bits tonight--starting off by
> making some bit props to get the holes lined up..should be fun. : )
>
> Bill

No issues with 2 runs of 12/2 in a 3/4 hole Bill.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

> 1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant,

No, a panel GFCI and an outlet GFCI are redundant. You need *one* GFCI
per circuit, extras won't help. You need *one* breaker per circuit.
Breakers and GFCIs serve two different purposes.

> 2. Consider running 30 Amps to the 240v outlets as has been suggested. A
> Grizzly G0690 TS is 15 Amps (240v) and Grizzly suggests that it should be on
> a 20 Amp circuilt. Does this imply it would be prudent to use a 20 Amp fuse
> near the connection to help protect the equiptment. Lew always said that
> the CBs are there to protect the lines and Not the equiptment.

If you use a 30 amp breaker, you have to have everything permanent on
that circuit rated for 30 amps - wiring and outlet. That means your TS
needs a 30 amp plug, although code does not require the TS to have
wiring rated for 30 amps. If you *do* put a 20 amp rated tool on a 30
amp circuit, it would be prudent (but not required by code) to put
additional protection on that's sized for the tool.

> 3. It was suggested to run 2 120v branch circuits. Fine to run these off
> of one 14-3 cable?

I wouldn't use 14 gauge wire at all in a shop - that's limited to 15
amps, and many of my tools need 20 amp anyway, which means 12 gauge.

As for putting two 120v outlets on a single 240v wire - check with your
local code and find out what the rules are. Most likely, you'll at
least need to use a ganged breaker to protect the branch properly.

On Jul 11, 6:31=A0pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
> > I believe I actually started the thread originally and then restarted
> > it a few months later. =A0I think the main question you should ask
> > yourself is: Did you learn anything or were you just counting?
>
> Or learning to count.

Lord you guys are sensitive. Or just eager to keep a long string
going.

RonB

On 6/3/2010 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


> Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
> is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
> as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

A common builder's ploy is to designate a space, that could conceivably
be used as a closet by an owner in the future, as a "machine room" on
any architectural drawings.

It's not like an inspector is going to make a surprise visit, or even
care after a final inspection is passed, to see what a homeowner
ultimately does with the space in his house.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:29:43 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> It can. There are *always* leaks. The pressure switch can be right
>> on the edge of tripping. It wouldn't be nice to have it go over the
>> edge just as you're making a that cut in 2" maple.
>
>I beg to differ on the statement that there are always leaks. I've never
>had a leak in any of the compressor systems I've had in my garage.

Mine will cycle about once a week, maybe two. Connectors are not perfect,
particularly if not mated.

>If you
>have leaks, you should address that. There's just no reason that you should
>have them. As for the compressor kicking on - maybe some of us are more
>sensitive to sudden noises than others, but my compressor does not make me
>jump when it kicks in.

Crap. Jumping has nothing to do with it. We were talking about not having
them on the same circuit!

Bill wrote:

>
> I believe I actually started the thread originally and then restarted
> it a few months later. I think the main question you should ask
> yourself is: Did you learn anything or were you just counting?
>

Come on Bill - that's not even close to a right question. Why tell another
poster what they should be asking themselves, when you are the one asking
all the questions?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Scott Lurndal wrote:

>
> As I understand it, the grounded conductor may not be interrupted by
> a device; in other words, you must pigtail the grounded conductor
> rather than pass it through the receptacle or use the receptacle as a
> terminal strip to join the upstream
> and downstream grounded conductor. I wonder if there is an
> exception here for
> a GFCI device when protecting the downstream devices, tho.
>

No exception would be necessary since you pigtail the ground for the GFCI
just as any other device.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jul 14, 5:58=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 14, 5:11=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Robatoy wrote:
> > > Hence using the stuff horizontally whenever possible.
>
> > That does not eliminate the butt joint issue. =A0It only moves it.
>
> > --
>
> > -Mike-
> > [email protected]
>
> But you get to use 12' sheets.

Or 16'...and the odd 20'

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I believe I actually started the thread originally and then
>>> restarted it a few months later. I think the main question you
>>> should ask yourself is: Did you learn anything or were you just
>>> counting?
>>
>> Come on Bill - that's not even close to a right question. Why tell
>> another poster what they should be asking themselves, when you are
>> the one asking all the questions?
>
> Well, when I wrote what I did, I thought I was defending myself. And
> in replying to your post, I feel like I am again. Isn't the forum more
> interesting place when someone asks questions, and someone answers,
> etc.? This message is mostly a void too--it's a shame to have to
> spend time defending myself. I'd rather go back to participating in
> an interesting dialog. Asking good questions and providing good
> answers is thoughtful work. Posting attacks is the work of trolls.
>
> Bill

Don't feel too defensive - it's kind of like a couple of guys sitting around
talking. Nothing of an attack.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jun 9, 1:11=A0pm, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 11:46=A0am, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 6/9/10 10:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > > re: "older people loose red sensing"
>
> > > Yeah, but the *position* of each light doesn't change.
>
> > Unless their mounted horizontally, like under bridges or in hurricane
> > prone areas.
> > One could presume they might have a standard for which side green is on=
,
> > in those cases.
>
> > --
>
> > =A0 -MIKE-
>
> > =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> > =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> > =A0 --
> > =A0http://mikedrums.com
> > =A0 [email protected]
> > =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
>
> Yes, there is a standard. It's *always* Red on left, Yellow in the
> middle and Green on the right.
>
> Gee, I wonder if they standarized the positions for color-blind
> drivers.

Yes, on the left (in the US). ;-)

On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, "Josepi"<X-Complaints-to: [email protected].> wrote:
>> From your nonsense comments I see you must operate your compressor with a
>> manual on/off switch. Imagine you recommending a person operating a table
>> saw to have it stall in the middle of a cut because they forgot to turn off
>> the air compressor. You give dangerous advice here.
>
> OK, I'll give you that one. The rest of your post was complete nonsense.

Ayup ...

>> As far as overcurrent protection, you have no idea. Don't even try to
>> convince me of anything in that regard.
>
> Point out exactly what errors you imagine I made in that regard. Hint: you
> are completely clueless if you think that branch circuit overcurrent
> protection has anything to do with protecting the loads that are plugged into
> that circuit.

Ayup ...

> Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You have
> no idea.

Ayup!!

BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug! :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 05:44:49 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
>(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
>corresponding wiring model:
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
>Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
>Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
>understanding)!
>
>Bill
>
>BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
>protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.
>
I'm going to agree with Doug and Mike both. Motor loads have some
high start up currents and your asking for nuisance trips. Don't be
stingy with the breakers and circuits. The retractable drop from the
ceiling as recommended I've found really useful.

Mike M

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:38:11 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote the
following:

>I've been thinking and reading about finishing my project.
>Having one of those "homemade stucco" finishes on the ceiling, made out
>of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one
>wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it.
>
>This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that
>with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can
>make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching it
>any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the
>ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the butt
>joints), but I think this is a good time to ask.

Drywall is tapered at the edges to give you a smooth finish when 2
pieces are butted together. Either crush the edges of cut drywall (to
give you that taper) or use fresh rock where possible. At $5 a sheet
vs a whole lot of hassle, new rock is cheaper, IMHO.

Grab a copy of this book. It has helped me improve my taping and
mudding techniques immensely. http://fwd4.me/Wvp

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

Bill wrote:
> I've been thinking and reading about finishing my project.
> Having one of those "homemade stucco" finishes on the ceiling, made
> out of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of
> one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it.
>
> This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume
> that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds
> I can make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest
> approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the
> wallboard to the ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my
> original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to
> ask.

I'd leave it as it is Bill. You can finish the butt joints in the normal
way, and you don't have to worry about affecting the finish at or near the
textured ceiling. A less than perfect butt joint that is 4" from the
ceiling isn't going to be all that visible.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:52:37 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I shouldn't have the least worry about threading a 12-2 romex cable
>> through 3/4" holes, and back through the same holes, should I?
>
> You should be able to use 5/8" holes.
>
>> Nothing else will be in the holes. The issue that bothered me (a
>> little) is knowing that both cables would always be used at the same
>> time. I'm going to try out my new auger bits tonight--starting off by
>> making some bit props to get the holes lined up..should be fun. : )
>
> One thing you might do is put the wire on a stick so it comes off
> straight, without kinks. It makes it a *lot* easier to thread
> through the holes, if it's straight and not all loopy.

Agreed. You can fab up a simple stand that you can mount the entire coil of
12/2 on and then spool it off as you need it. Much easier and neater than
fighting with pull what you need from a coil on the floor, and then trying
to get it to pull through straight. You don't want to pull kinks into your
wire, and spooling it off really makes a nice pull easier. HD used to sell
a little stand, but I don't think they do now. Maybe Lowes, or one of the
others still do. It was somewhere around $30. It's worth looking around a
bit.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jun 9, 10:39=A0am, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 6, 5:45=A0pm, [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
>
> > Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >In article
> > ><[email protected]>,
> > >[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
> > >>In article <[email protected]>,
> > >>Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>>In article <[email protected]>, Swingman
> > >>><[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>>>On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> > >>>[...]
> > >>>>> Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installatio=
ns. You
> > >> have
> > >>>>> no idea.
>
> > >>>>Ayup!!
>
> > >>>>BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug! =A0:)
>
> > >>>Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...
>
> > >>Don't work with A/C ower then. =A0it's *RE*VOLTING*. =A0 =A0 <groan>
>
> > >I'm shocked that I didn't see that coming.
>
> > "No mho" says Tom, without reluctance.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> These jokes are beyond my capacitance. They amply deserve to be
> inducted into the Groaner Hall Of Fame.

Say watt? You should be kicked in the shorts for that.

On Jun 3, 3:07=A0pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> I did the following to mine:
>
> (1) Double the number of 120 outlets
> (2) use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations (dahikt)
> (3) Put ALL electrical in conduit on outside of walls.
>
> The reason for the external wiring is that every shop
> tends to get moved around from time to time and you
> can move stuff MUCH easier with it in conduit.
>
>
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, =A0I create=
d a
> > (pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and a=
lso a
> > corresponding wiring model:
>
> >http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

re: "use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations"

480 outlets? Yeah, that oughta be enough for most shops. ;-)

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:38:11 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote the
> following:
>
>> I've been thinking and reading about finishing my project.
>> Having one of those "homemade stucco" finishes on the ceiling, made
>> out of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top
>> of one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed
>> it.
>>
>> This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume
>> that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds
>> I can make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest
>> approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the
>> wallboard to the ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my
>> original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to
>> ask.
>
> Drywall is tapered at the edges to give you a smooth finish when 2
> pieces are butted together. Either crush the edges of cut drywall (to
> give you that taper) or use fresh rock where possible. At $5 a sheet
> vs a whole lot of hassle, new rock is cheaper, IMHO.
>
> Grab a copy of this book. It has helped me improve my taping and
> mudding techniques immensely. http://fwd4.me/Wvp

The tops and bottoms of rock are not tapered as the sides are. The advice
to recess them is good advice, but the notion of the finished edge only
applies to the long sides.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jul 6, 8:30=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected].=
com>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Jul 6, 7:30=3DA0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> >> In article <[email protected]>, FrozenNorth <fro=
zen=3D
> >[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >No mention of proper tagging of the white as a hot.
>
> >> Technically, that's a Code violation, but it hardly qualifies as dange=
rous
> >> IMHO.
>
> >How is a 240V circuit supposed to be run? =A0Do they make red/black/bare
> >12/2?
>
> Not that I've ever seen.
>
> > I've always used a sharpie to paint the white, red.
>
> Same here. Red or black.

Oh, I musta misunderstood you incorrectly above, when you said that
"tagging of the white as hot" was a code violation. I considered
painting the insulation as "tagging".

On Jul 13, 12:49=A0am, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:24:07 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >>> One thing you might do is put the wire on a stick so it comes off str=
aight,
> >>> without kinks. =A0It makes it a *lot* easier to thread through the ho=
les, if
> >>> it's straight and not all loopy.
>
> > Looks nicer, too!
>
> >> Hey, thanks! =A0I noticed a few "twists" in the wire I've uncoiled so =
far.
> >> I'll devise something (I hope the top rail comes off of my wife's quil=
t
> >> rack!).
>
> > Don't do that! =A0You'll likely break it and there goes your toy, er, t=
ool
> > money. =A0I generally use a clamp (or two) on the wall studs on the oth=
er side
> > of the room.
>
> Inspired by Doug Miller's collection of exotics (bits to put on the end
> of a drill), I bought Stanley's 62-piece set today for 12.99 at Menards.
> It turned out to contain a large torx bit, just what I needed to take
> apart the quilt rack. I asked permission first, and SWMBO thought it was
> fine that I use it the way I explained (turns out this item which is
> taking up valuable space in the shop area is not as meaningful a piece
> of memorabilia as I might have guessed). =A0I put a piece of padding
> underneath my 250' rolls of 10-2 and 12-2 romex to protect my wire from
> the hollow square steel frame. The roll of 10-2 is fairly heavy as most
> everyone here but me has known for years.
>
> Nuther story. =A0Directions on my new 3/4" auger bit suggested using a
> corded drill. =A0Okay, I have 3. The B&D my dad gave me, which was old in
> 1989 when he gave it to me, was the only one that would fit between the
> studs with a bit. According to the label, it is a 5 Amp drill. In my
> test efforts, the bit got stuck in the wood (3x) before I was able to
> get though a stud--and I mean stuck in the sense that the drill stopped
> moving, smoked, and I had to remove the bit from the chuck and from the
> wood with a wrench, stuck. =A0I tried a 3/4" spade bit with much better
> results, if not quite as smooth an exit hole. =A0I'll take back my new
> 7/8" auger bit and trade it for a spade bit of the same size.

The drill was obviously undersized for the purpose and may be past its
prime. No smoke should have come out of any drill under normal
circumstances, even stalled for a short time (it was a short time,
right?). You should have gotten a "stubby" bit for this purpose.
Irwin makes some really nice tri-augers for this purpose. I bought a
set a while back. I think the five (six?) were about $30.

> This makes me curious as to what it takes to drive an auger bit (the
> salesman at Home Depot spoke so highly of them). Would a 8 Amp Dewalt
> drill have handled this much better. How about a 14.4 cordless? =A0It
> would probably be a day in the park for the Dewalt 10 Amp drill (if it
> would fit). =A0This experience will make me more careful about getting th=
e
> Amps/HP I need in a DP. =A0Seeing your drill bit stuck in a piece of wood
> is just an ugly sight you don't want to have to see.

I haven't used a corded drill for years. My only corded drill is a
hammer drill I bought for cement (both drilling and mixing). A 14.4V
drill should work fine but I normally use an 18V Dewalt. Like
anything, use sharp tools. They make work easier and SAFER.

> I drilled all of the holes I need at the 23" level, perhaps 15, and
> found another stud I want to reinforce (by screwing a length of 2by4 on
> each side of it with plenty of 2 1/2" screws). Looks like it could be
> old ant or termite damage. =A0I'll start there tomorrow before I drill
> (the rest of) the holes at the 61" level. Turns out the prop is only
> good for getting the height right. My eye is fine for the rest.
> Occasionally, after I start I measure and restart, adjusting if
> necessary. =A0I'm taking my time so I don't burn up the drill.

Sounds like that is a real possibility. Use another drill (with a
stubby bit, if necessary).

On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 15:55:30 -0500, [email protected] (Robert
Bonomi) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>>> Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
>>>> could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
>>>> take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.
>>
>>Robert,
>>
>>That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
>>the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
>>What am I missing?
>
>Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream
>outlets.
>
>I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.

Why would you do that? BTW, bad choice of terminology. All loads are wired
in parallel.

Dr.Deb wrote:

> You can run 10ga if you want, but regular romex works just as well.
> The up side is that you do not have to buy any special wire. The
> white and black are both hot and the bare wire is your neutral. I
> have my tablesaw, lathe and welder wired that way and have had for
> quite some time.
>

10 ga comes in all wire types. I don't recall the OP or anyone else
suggesting not to use romex. Maybe I missed it though. You're close in
what you say above, except that the bare wire is not neutral - it is ground.
Bare can never be a current carrier. It can only be gound. If you are
running a neutral, it must be an insulated conductor.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jun 1, 2:44=A0am, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, =A0I created =
a
> (pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and als=
o a
> corresponding wiring model:
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Comments or suggestions welcome. =A0In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
> Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
> understanding)!

Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:

5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?

As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says: there's only
four things you gotta know about being an electrician:

S--- flows downhill, Payday is on Friday, It may be s--- to you but
its bread and butter to them, and Every asshole is a potential
customer.

Oops! That was about plumbers. Forget it. Anyway, Doug is just jealous
of plumbers 'cause they make more money than cabinetmakers, just like
Tom.

Actually, all the regulars and most of the newbies on the wreck are
electrical experts. That's why any thread on wiring and electricity
gets so many responses. Most of us work with electricity all the time.
After all computers and power tools are electrical, and so's the TV we
watch Norm on. If you want to change the plug on your tablesaw, you
still need to know everything about wiring and amps and volts and
watts and volt-amps and wire gauges and phases and power factors and
impedance and resistance and plug configurations and panel sizes and
capacitors and motors and switches and electrical codes.

But that's OK, don't be afraid. You can trust any wiring and
electrical advice from anybody on the wreck, apply it and be
absolutely sure that it will meet code and be perfectly safe. No point
in getting ripped off by electricians or consulting an inspector. Just
ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of
accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math
question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.

HTH

Luigi

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, FrozenNorth
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 7/06/10 12:04 AM, Dr.Deb wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> You can run 10ga if you want, but regular romex works just as well.
>>> The up side is that you do not have to buy any special wire. The
>>> white and black are both hot and the bare wire is your neutral. I
>>> have my tablesaw, lathe and welder wired that way and have had for
>>> quite some time.
>>>
>>> Deb
>>>
>> No inspections in your pat of town obviously, that is dangerous.
>>
> Oh?
>
> Please explain, in detail, exactly what you imagine is dangerous.

Look again Doug - the recommendation was to use the bare ground as a neutral
current carrier. A mistake in wording perhaps, but as written it is a
violation of code and for good reason.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

All my 120v shop outlets are quad boxes, with the left outlets on a
separate breaker than the right ones. I run 12/3 to them and use a
ganged breaker so you never have a half-live box.

I've found a ceiling mounted 240v outlet to be *very* handy. It's not a
locking outlet; if you trip over the cord you want it to just pull out.

I have two sets of lights - the regular basement lights, and extra shop
lights. One tripped breaker is not enough to plunge the shop into darkness.

All my shop-specific circuits are off a shop-specific panel, which I can
disconnect at the main panel for safety if needed.

Ugh - older people loose red sensing. Color blind loos other colors.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 6/6/2010 7:31 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 6/6/10 6:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> All I've been seeing in this thread is how the NEC was originally
>>>> intended to keep stupid contractors from burning down houses.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how replacing two words that are spelled very differently
>>>> with two words that are spelled almost identically helps that cause.
>>>
>>> Perhaps they could have made better choices, perhaps not.
>>
>> Perhaps not!? Really?
>
> *I* don't have any trouble keeping the two terms straight. ;-)
>
>> Perhaps whoever came up with the traffic light made the better choice
>> between red-yellow-green and red-yellow-brown. :-)
>
> Considering that a small but significant fraction of males see both red and
> green as brown, red-yellow-blue would have been a much better choice.
>>
>>
>>> But the NEC does
>>> very clearly and explicitly define the terms "Grounded conductor" and
>>> "Grounding conductor" in Article 100.
>>
>> I would hope so.
>
> They define *everything*.

Apparently I misthreaded on the last one.

While we are giving out advise to run way too much copper everywhere for an
under 15 amp woodworking shop in a garage...

Running the 3 conductor now would be cheaper than opening the walls to run
it later because he wants a 120v dust collector or a block heater for his
car in that corner.



<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c24e746e-cda5-4c45-8832-933f39dea527@t10g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
How many tools do you know that need a neutral? I suppose there are
some with 120V lights, but there is a significant cost difference
between /2 and /3 cable.


On Jul 6, 7:55 am, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
I would run a 12/3 or 10/3 cable to have a neutral in case I wanted to
install a device needing a neutral in a mind or usage change, later on. Then
you would have red and black for hots and white for neutral, bare for
ground.

> Gee, I wonder if they standarized the positions for color-blind
> drivers.

Works for me ...

The rare time I have trouble is at night with a blinking light at a
cross roads. I either do the same as the car in front of me, pulling
over and letting someone pass as the bell cow if need be; or slow to a
complete stop if necessary, and/or proceed with caution.

Also these idiot designed new left turn lights threw me the first time I
saw them in Austin last year, and now they're spreading to the rest of
Texas.

With the new left turn lights, the left turn arrow, which used to only
be lit when it was green, now stays is constantly lit and turns from red
to green ... that was a bitch the first time ... and totally unnecessary
if you think about it.

AFAIK there is no color blind test for driving in any place in the US
I've lived. However, there was in Germany ... I failed, but got the
license anyway because I was the ranking Army officer in the area at the
time .. the old Germanic respect for authority, safety be damned, I
suppose. ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article
><[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>, Swingman
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>[...]
>>>>> Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You
>> have
>>>>> no idea.
>>>>
>>>>Ayup!!
>>>>
>>>>BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug! :)
>>>
>>>Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...
>>
>>Don't work with A/C ower then. it's *RE*VOLTING*. <groan>
>>
>
>I'm shocked that I didn't see that coming.

"No mho" says Tom, without reluctance.

In article <b7a17bea-9fe9-46ca-9ea2-0967c0053949@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>,
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Jun 1, 8:11 pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:be4235af-adbc-4050-8fbe-
>>
>> The top of my workbench overhangs the support frame by about 5 inches.
>> I put a 120V duplex every 2.5 feet or so along the frame under the
>> overhang, facing out into the shop.
>>
>> This keeps the top of the workbench clear of cords running from the
>> back wall (as pictured in your "garage" sketch) when using sanders,
>> heat guns, etc.
>>
>> DD,
>>
>> This is a nice idea.  Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension
>> cord to the wall?
>> Sorry if the answer is obvious.
>>
>> Bill
>
>re: "Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension cord to the
>wall?"
>
>I was hoping nobody would ask that question!
>
>The workbench is a rather old structure (1950's?) that came with the
>house. It is basically framed with full-sized 2 x 4's (doubled up for
>the legs) and topped with 2 x 8's, upon which I added 1/4" hardboard
>to get a smooth yet replaceable work surface. The unit is just over 8'
>long and about 3' deep. It's a rather hefty unit.
>
>It is more or less "permanently" wired into the shop. There is a
>junction box attached to a back leg of the workbench with a run of
>12/2 NM from a junction box in the ceiling. From the workbench
>junction box I ran more 12/2 along the frame and attached the outlets
>in surface mount boxes.
>
>I assume the junction box attached to the workbench is probably not
>code, but based on the weight of the workbench and it's location, it's
>not something that ever gets moved. If it needed to be moved, I would
>disconnect the wires in the ceiling box so no live wires would be
>exposed.
>
>What would be required to bring this up to code? Would a male-male be
>required? Would just a male pig-tail from the junction box to a
>receptacle be better? Or is it OK as is?

male-male is *illegal* in a lot of jurisdictions. Serious risk if the
upstream (i.e. the wall outlet fed from utility power) end is plugged in
and the other end is -not-.

In most jurisdictions the outlets on the bench is perfectly legal (no
different than a convenience outlet on a stove, say), with a simple drop
cord to plug it into a wall outlet. I would probably consider using
greenlee armored cable and a twist-lok connector. <grin>

I'd use greenlee, or actual EMT conduit, for all the 'on bench' inter-
connections. something -could- fly around and hit bare wiring (even NM)
I don't believe in giving MURPHY a -chance- to muck with things. :)

In article <[email protected]>,
Robert Bonomi <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>>> Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
>>>> could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
>>>> take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.
>>
>>Robert,
>>
>>That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
>>the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
>>What am I missing?
>
>Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream
>outlets.
>
>I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.

Clarification -- this *is* somewhat unconventional, I realize it needs more
explanation.

A standard GFI outlet has two pairs of isolated wiring points. One (hot and
neutral) for upstream ['line'], the other (ISOLATED hot / ISOLATED neutral)
for additional outlet(s) [load] to be protected.

Typical ("series") wiring is hot/neutral from panel to GFI 'line', GFI 'load'
(isolated) hot/neutral to next outlet and on to next (repeating as needed)
making sure that the isolated neutral is 'continuous' from GFI to end of run.

NEC has specified that neutral must be a continuous conductor back to the panel.
*PRESUMABLY* there's an exception to this for 'downstream' GFI protection, as
the downstream outlet (isolated) neutral has to be wired to the GFI load neutral,
*NOT* to the panel neutral bus.

What _I_ first did, motivated by the fact that (1) I was putting only 2 duplex
outlets on a breaker, (2) the 2 duplex outlets were located 'distant' from each
other (idea being to have 'as many as practical' different circuits 'within
reach' at any given point), _and_ (3) as a result of (2), the outlets were
usually in _opposite_directions_ from the panel. Each hot came out of the panel
and into an immediately adjacent 'distribution box' where it was joined to a
_separate_ wire going to each outlet (shorter to do 2 runs, then out to one
outlet, back, and out to 2nd outlet.) (3 conductors in the wire-nut -- one to
each outlet, and the 'common' back to the breaker) -- one to each outlet,
and the 'common' back to the breaker) Neutral from each outlet was run all the
way back to the panel. no breaks, no splices. This called for a GFI breaker
at _each_ location. since neither 'downstream' of, or protected by the other.
(Note: electrical inspector _did_ wonder at, and question, *all* those neutrals
at the panel. more neutrals than circuits! :)

Subsequently, I've been able to find GFI receptacles for _not_ much more money
than a quality duplex outlet. So, I treat the in wall wiring (hot/neutral) like
a 'buss'. and pigtail off a tap on -each- one at each outlet. which connects
to the _line_ side of a GFI outlet at each location. 'load' side goes unused.
Each GFI can see only it's own pigtail and trips only if a device plugged into
it fails. When it trips, it kills only the pigtail, and any other independently
protected outlets on the 'buss' are still active.

There is an additional, but subtle, advantage to this set-up, _if_ there is a
possibility of (young) children around. Since you've got a _separate_ GFI at
-each- outlet position, you can disable the outlets, by hitting the 'test'
button on all of them, and only resetting when actually needed for use.

Outlets with switches 'built in' are *handy*. Especially when it's not
particularly obvious that they _are_ switches. *GRIN*

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
>(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
>corresponding wiring model:
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
>Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
>Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
>understanding)!
>
>Bill
>
>BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
>protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.
>
>

+I+ would run _10_ ga. (minimum) to the 240 outlets. It's only trivially
more cost initially, and 'in the future' it makes it much easier to support
something that needs more power (just change the breaker and the plug).


One can never have enough 120v outlets. I'd put a quad box at each of the
three locations, with two circuits (one for each duplex outlet pair).

If it is a strictly ONE MAN shop, two circuits for all the 120V is likely
enough -- the 'one man' feature will limit how much gear is running at any
given moment.

IF NOT, I'd want a minimum of 3 circuits for the 120v, with 'staggered'
availability. i.e. circuit1/2 at the first box, circuit2/3 at the
second box, and circuit 3/1 at the third box..

Also, you'll find out _real_quick_ that you need more outlets by the work-
bench. recommend 3 quad boxes along -that- wall as well.

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I could.
_IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not- take out
'something else' that might be running on the same circuit. More of a
consideration in a 'more than one person' shop, but it's along the same lines
as why you don't put _anything_ else on the 'lighting' circuit -- localize
the 'surprise factor' as much as possible.

Note: if you look for 'em, you can find _20_ Amp rated 120v GFI duplex
outlets. They're practically the same cost as the stock 15A ones, but the
attachment points are sized for the bigger wire gauge, and give the potential
for _safely_ supporting a higher-draw 120v device.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>On 6/6/10 1:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> He's talking about the groundED conductor, not the groundING conductor. Those
>> terms are used in the Code to refer to the neutral and the ground,
>> respectively.
>
>Glad I didn't become an electrician.
>How fu@&!ng confusing is that.
>
>Gee, let's use the terms grounded and grounding to refer to neutral and
>ground.
>Brilliant. That sure is MUCH less confusing than "neutral" the "ground."
>

The neutral -is- grounded. At exactly one location, the service entrance.

>Morons.

WTF?

You never did! STUCCO CEILINGS! ROFL!!!


"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
(Definition) Garage:
1. a building or indoor area for parking or storing motor vehicles.
2. a commercial establishment for repairing and servicing motor vehicles.

I don't have one of those! : )

Bill


Doug Miller wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, "Mike
> Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'd leave it as it is Bill. You can finish the butt joints in the normal
>> way, and you don't have to worry about affecting the finish at or near
>> the
>> textured ceiling. A less than perfect butt joint that is 4" from the
>> ceiling isn't going to be all that visible.
>>
> Besides which, it's in the garage, not the living room. :-)