I have finished a few pieces of furniture and other projects in red oak up
to a few years ago. I was with other interests for quite a few years, now. I
need some input on finishing a new staircase in red oak.
I have always liked a darker stained red oak colour like special walnut or
dark walnut and have always stained my oak projects with darker colours. The
darker stains are a bitch for wood scratches and end grain staining unevenly
and I have been told by many professionals and polished (pun intended)
amateurs to use a sanding sealer first.
With Internet research I see the crowd is well split about using a sanding
sealer before the stain coats). Some state the stain will not absorb (that
would be the point to a certain extent) and others say it is the only way to
do it so you don't sand after staining and "distress" the stained finish
look. The wood finishing product companies recommend "wood conditioner"
before stain so I have purchased some for experimentation. Many seasoned
(pun intended) woodworkers recommend thinned out shellac based products
before staining.
Anybody have any experiences with this? I would appreciate experienced
input. I have never pre-sealed before staining and this appeals to obscure
some sanding laziness, with a dark stain, and surprise wood blotchiness.
TIA
In article
<3d399646-983f-401a-8b96-2139ae9464d6@z13g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
SonomaProducts.com <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think in preperation they created anew province just for
> that purpose a few years back didn't they?
Territory, "Nunavut", not a full province.
--
âThe problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peopleâs
money.â - Margaret Thatcher
What type of alcohol would you thin the shellac with?
I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain darkness
had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
If you want the end grain to be less absorbent you can use either
conditioner or
sanding sealer. Or even just do a thinned shellac painted on the end
grain first. Do some tests for how much thinning but zinsser bulls eye
seal coat thinned about in half with alcohol should do the trick.
Really soak it into the end grain and let it dry a day. Shellac dries
in 10 minutes but when it wicks into the wood it will take longer.
<snippage>
Finally, you might experiement with gel stain. Especially if you are
trying to darken Oak. Just a hint.
------------------
> and I have been told by many professionals and polished (pun intended)
> amateurs to use a sanding sealer first....
>
>
> My guess is Canada has a different product or the product has been changed
> and they have old stock. The store is only a few years old so the old stock
My guess is exact same product with different labeling requirements.
With lacquers it is very common for them to say "Do not thin". But the
reason for this is with a higher percentage of solvent thay then have
a higher vox (volitile chemicals) rating and the gubment don't wnat ya
to be gassing off so much. I suppose the same might be true for
shellac in a PC world. Frankly Canada could benefit from a little
global warming and it might open up a whole bunch of new northern
territory. I think in preperation they created anew province just for
that purpose a few years back didn't they?
Josepi wrote:
> I would assume that hydrogen peroxide would not work though. There are so
> many types of alcohol. I have to assume isopropyl of some type without the
> water and oils used to dilute medical "rubbing" alcohol.
>
> I found a can of "zinsser bulls eye seal coat" today. Funny thing is is
> states "do not thin" and "do not use under polyurethane finishes....yikes! I
> noticed the same statements on another can of shellac...I think it was.
>
I suggest you re-read the instructions.
From Zinsser's Technical Data Sheet for SealCoat
"Pre-Stain Conditioner - SealCoat is ideal for preventing uneven
stain penetration over softwoods such as pine. Thin product
by adding 3 parts alcohol to 2 parts SealCoat."
"Application Requirements Do not thin product when
using as a sealer or bond/barrier coat."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Sanding Sealer - May be used as an undercoat to prepare all
new or previously finished interior wood surfaces for oil-based
and acrylic polyurethanes, varnish and lacquer topcoats."
http://www.zinsser.com/pdf/TDB/sealcoattdb.pdf
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
>
> I suspect this product is bad for our environment but some states don't care
> or want to test Obama's new healthcare system.
>
Well if alcohol is bad for the environment than we better cut down
every green thing with sugars in it that can possibly rot. Ever heard
of pruno? Jail hooch made from any kind of fruit or grain you can get
your hands on.
On May 9, 3:38=A0pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> What type of alcohol would you thin the shellac with?
>
> I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain darknes=
s
> had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?
>
Any alcohol really. Most common usage would be denatured alcohol, sold
at home depot along side mineral spirits, turpentine, paint thinner,
etc. However, isopropyl alcohol also works and dries a little slower.
I have also seen guys use grain alcohol so if you see a bottle of
Everclear in a wood shop it may have a dual purpose.
Not that denatured alcohol can absorb moisture and the water can give
some problems (I have heard, never experienced). A fresh can won't
have the problem. I buy the pint cans so it never gets too old even
though a gallon is super cheap too.
End grain will still super absorb gel stain. My recommendation for gel
stain is to avoid blotchness and to build darker color easier. Gel
stain is oil stain suspended in poly. So you can easily build it up to
a darker color, not relying on absorbtion.
> I found a can of "zinsser bulls eye seal coat" today. Funny thing is is
> states "do not thin" and "do not use under polyurethane finishes....yikes! I
> noticed the same statements on another can of shellac...I think it was.
Kind of strange. The very language of shellac is discussing the "cut"
or pounds of shellac flakes to gallons of alcohol. So the seal coat is
like 2 or 3 pount cut. I suppose if it will perform as described on
the can as an undercoat sealant that will block stains, mold, etc.
then using it as mixed is required. But thinning it for other purposes
is surely OK. Zinnser is just a simpler way of getting shellac than
mixing your own flakes. I think they add something besides alcohol to
enhance shelf life too.
Not sure why they would say not under poly. Shellac is the worlds best
undercoat and many of the top finishing guys say to use shellac under
anything. I guess maybe their shelf extender might have some lacquer
type properties and lacquer cannot go under poly but I use zinnser
under poly all the time and have never seen any problem. Not sure what
to say. The seal coat is dewaxed and works great for me.
On May 11, 9:36=A0am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Josepi wrote:
> > I would assume that hydrogen peroxide would not work though.
>
> You assume correctly. =A0The reason is that H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) isn'=
t
> alcohol.
Chemists' shorthand for an alcohol is R-OH, a hydrocarbon radical
with an OH branch.
...
> and I have been told by many professionals and polished (pun intended)
> amateurs to use a sanding sealer first....
>
You need to be careful with terms. "Sanding Sealer" and "Pre-stain
Conditioner" are not exactly the same thing and you are talking about
a conditioner.
Red Oak won't benefit much from pre-stain conditioner. Even-handed
sanding is your best bet for avoiding any unevenness. If you want the
end grain to be less absorbent you can use either conditioner or
sanding sealer. Or even just do a thinned shellac painted on the end
grain first. Do some tests for how much thinning but zinsser bulls eye
seal coat thinned about in half with alcohol should do the trick.
Really soak it into the end grain and let it dry a day. Shellac dries
in 10 minutes but when it wicks into the wood it will take longer.
Sanding sealer is a thinned film finish meant to lay down thin and to
be softer that the real finish to let you do one final surface sanding
\flattening before subsequent coats of a film finish like lacquer or
poly. It can act like a stain pre-conditioner but not exactly the same
and might seal the wood completly if layed down too thick.
Finally, you might experiement with gel stain. Especially if you are
trying to darken Oak. Just a hint.
I would assume that hydrogen peroxide would not work though. There are so
many types of alcohol. I have to assume isopropyl of some type without the
water and oils used to dilute medical "rubbing" alcohol.
I found a can of "zinsser bulls eye seal coat" today. Funny thing is is
states "do not thin" and "do not use under polyurethane finishes....yikes! I
noticed the same statements on another can of shellac...I think it was.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7cfc9f5c-5c69-4433-ac99-d1e8bdfd2247@n37g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Any alcohol really. Most common usage would be denatured alcohol, sold
at home depot along side mineral spirits, turpentine, paint thinner,
etc. However, isopropyl alcohol also works and dries a little slower.
I have also seen guys use grain alcohol so if you see a bottle of
Everclear in a wood shop it may have a dual purpose.
Not that denatured alcohol can absorb moisture and the water can give
some problems (I have heard, never experienced). A fresh can won't
have the problem. I buy the pint cans so it never gets too old even
though a gallon is super cheap too.
End grain will still super absorb gel stain. My recommendation for gel
stain is to avoid blotchness and to build darker color easier. Gel
stain is oil stain suspended in poly. So you can easily build it up to
a darker color, not relying on absorbtion.
On May 9, 3:38 pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> What type of alcohol would you thin the shellac with?
>
> I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain darkness
> had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?
>
Fossil fuels are naturally sourced products also and therefore we should
drink them regularly.
Everything has it's place.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:67149855-b77f-4fe0-ab13-91e355264206@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Well if alcohol is bad for the environment than we better cut down
every green thing with sugars in it that can possibly rot. Ever heard
of pruno? Jail hooch made from any kind of fruit or grain you can get
your hands on.
>
> I suspect this product is bad for our environment but some states don't
> care
> or want to test Obama's new healthcare system.
>
Josepi wrote:
> I have finished a few pieces of furniture and other projects in red
> oak up to a few years ago. I was with other interests for quite a few
> years, now. I need some input on finishing a new staircase in red oak.
>
>
> I have always liked a darker stained red oak colour like special
> walnut or dark walnut and have always stained my oak projects with
> darker colours. The darker stains are a bitch for wood scratches and
> end grain staining unevenly and I have been told by many
> professionals and polished (pun intended) amateurs to use a sanding
> sealer first.
>
> With Internet research I see the crowd is well split about using a
> sanding sealer before the stain coats). Some state the stain will not
> absorb (that would be the point to a certain extent) and others say
> it is the only way to do it so you don't sand after staining and
> "distress" the stained finish look. The wood finishing product
> companies recommend "wood conditioner" before stain so I have
> purchased some for experimentation. Many seasoned (pun intended)
> woodworkers recommend thinned out shellac based products before
> staining.
>
>
> Anybody have any experiences with this? I would appreciate experienced
> input. I have never pre-sealed before staining and this appeals to
> obscure some sanding laziness, with a dark stain, and surprise wood
> blotchiness.
1. Sealing won't necessarily avoid stain catching in residual sanding
scratches so sand properly. No scratches should show with or without stain.
Sand properly means...
(a) sand LOTS with whatever coarse grit you start with to get the wood
level/flat/smooth
(b) sand with progressively finer grits to remove scratch marks from the
previous grit; again, you need to sand more with each grit than you probably
think you do. Work up to at least 180, maybe 240 or finer, depends on the
wood.
2. The end grain of red oak sucks up anything like a sponge. If you want
the end grain to remotely resemble the rest, that end grain has to be sealed
or conditioned. That is true of any wood, especially red oak. Hell, I
don't know if it is even possible to seal red oak end grain, I avoid that
wood as much as possible; glue size maybe...
3. Red oak doesn't blotch when stained; at least, it never has for me.
4. I have never heard of anyone sanding after staining unless they left too
much stain on or were striving for a special effect; normally, wipe stain
on, let set, wipe off. That's oil stain. If the wood has been
sealed/"conditioned" lots more will wipe off, ergo lighter color.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> writes:
>On May 9, 3:38=A0pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What type of alcohol would you thin the shellac with?
>>
>> I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain darknes=
>s
>> had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?
>>
>
>Any alcohol really. Most common usage would be denatured alcohol, sold
>at home depot along side mineral spirits, turpentine, paint thinner,
>etc. However, isopropyl alcohol also works and dries a little slower.
>I have also seen guys use grain alcohol so if you see a bottle of
>Everclear in a wood shop it may have a dual purpose.
>
>Not that denatured alcohol can absorb moisture and the water can give
>some problems (I have heard, never experienced). A fresh can won't
>have the problem. I buy the pint cans so it never gets too old even
>though a gallon is super cheap too.
Not sure that I'd consider USD16/gal "super cheap", myself.
scott
On 5/9/2010 5:38 PM, Josepi wrote:
> What type of alcohol would you thin the shellac with?
I usually use a 99% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol to cut shellac when
spraying in this Gulf Coast climate humidity, but denatured alcohol from
the BORG works just as well most of the time.
> I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain darkness
> had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?
Not in my experience ... although the difference may be less obvious,
gel stain itself does not necessarily avoid a noticeably darker end
grain when staining.
It does seem to help, however, with woods that have a tendency to
blotch, like maple; and woods like poplar, with strong sapwood and
heartwood differences in absorption.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Josepi wrote:
> I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain
> darkness had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?
To do that, fill and seal the wood so that the open grain doesn't fill up
with stain. You can sand lightly afterward to remove sealer from the
non-open areas if they don't absorb as much stain as you want.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote
End grain will still super absorb gel stain. My recommendation for gel
stain is to avoid blotchness and to build darker color easier. Gel
stain is oil stain suspended in poly. So you can easily build it up to
a darker color, not relying on absorbtion.
*****************************************************************
What I've done with end grain is to burnish it first. Not a perfect
solution, but it helps.
Thanx!
That looks like the exact product I would be looking for. Trouble is the can
I had in my hands at Lowe's says not to dilute and not to be used under oil
Based polyurethane finishes.
My guess is Canada has a different product or the product has been changed
and they have old stock. The store is only a few years old so the old stock
thing is unlikely. Looks like the same product name and very similar can
too???? This may be a restricted product in Canada. We have stricker
restrictions on some chemical products.
Got involved in WD-40 arguments, years ago, and it turns out the labelling
is different here. USA label states "lubricates" but not in Canuckistan.
Will be in Buffalo area in a few months but need to move faster on this. My
oak staircase is drying out.
"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I suggest you re-read the instructions.
From Zinsser's Technical Data Sheet for SealCoat
"Pre-Stain Conditioner - SealCoat is ideal for preventing uneven
stain penetration over softwoods such as pine. Thin product
by adding 3 parts alcohol to 2 parts SealCoat."
"Application Requirements Do not thin product when
using as a sealer or bond/barrier coat."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Sanding Sealer - May be used as an undercoat to prepare all
new or previously finished interior wood surfaces for oil-based
and acrylic polyurethanes, varnish and lacquer topcoats."
http://www.zinsser.com/pdf/TDB/sealcoattdb.pdf
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
That's why it tastes so bad in Coke!
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
You assume correctly. The reason is that H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) isn't
alcohol.
dadiOH
_________________
Josepi wrote:
> I would assume that hydrogen peroxide would not work though.
> There
> are so many types of alcohol. I have to assume isopropyl of some type
> without the water and oils used to dilute medical "rubbing" alcohol.
>
> I found a can of "zinsser bulls eye seal coat" today. Funny thing is
> is states "do not thin" and "do not use under polyurethane
> finishes....yikes! I noticed the same statements on another can of
> shellac...I think it was.
>
>
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:7cfc9f5c-5c69-4433-ac99-d1e8bdfd2247@n37g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> Any alcohol really. Most common usage would be denatured alcohol, sold
> at home depot along side mineral spirits, turpentine, paint thinner,
> etc. However, isopropyl alcohol also works and dries a little slower.
> I have also seen guys use grain alcohol so if you see a bottle of
> Everclear in a wood shop it may have a dual purpose.
>
> Not that denatured alcohol can absorb moisture and the water can give
> some problems (I have heard, never experienced). A fresh can won't
> have the problem. I buy the pint cans so it never gets too old even
> though a gallon is super cheap too.
>
> End grain will still super absorb gel stain. My recommendation for gel
> stain is to avoid blotchness and to build darker color easier. Gel
> stain is oil stain suspended in poly. So you can easily build it up to
> a darker color, not relying on absorbtion.
>
>
>
> On May 9, 3:38 pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What type of alcohol would you thin the shellac with?
>>
>> I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain
>> darkness had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?
LOL
Interesting part is in Zinsser's search engine, Canada always shows up in
Buttfuck, Nebraska, no matter what provonce or city you search for. Also if
you select that product in other suppliers, they state they cannot ship to
Canada or California, unless the companies don't know the difference between
Ca and Ca.
I suspect this product is bad for our environment but some states don't care
or want to test Obama's new healthcare system.
Looks like a road trip!
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3d399646-983f-401a-8b96-2139ae9464d6@z13g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
My guess is exact same product with different labeling requirements.
With lacquers it is very common for them to say "Do not thin". But the
reason for this is with a higher percentage of solvent thay then have
a higher vox (volitile chemicals) rating and the gubment don't wnat ya
to be gassing off so much. I suppose the same might be true for
shellac in a PC world. Frankly Canada could benefit from a little
global warming and it might open up a whole bunch of new northern
territory. I think in preperation they created anew province just for
that purpose a few years back didn't they?
>
> My guess is Canada has a different product or the product has been changed
> and they have old stock. The store is only a few years old so the old
> stock
Josepi wrote:
> I would assume that hydrogen peroxide would not work though.
You assume correctly. The reason is that H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) isn't
alcohol.
dadiOH
_________________
> There
> are so many types of alcohol. I have to assume isopropyl of some type
> without the water and oils used to dilute medical "rubbing" alcohol.
>
> I found a can of "zinsser bulls eye seal coat" today. Funny thing is
> is states "do not thin" and "do not use under polyurethane
> finishes....yikes! I noticed the same statements on another can of
> shellac...I think it was.
>
>
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:7cfc9f5c-5c69-4433-ac99-d1e8bdfd2247@n37g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> Any alcohol really. Most common usage would be denatured alcohol, sold
> at home depot along side mineral spirits, turpentine, paint thinner,
> etc. However, isopropyl alcohol also works and dries a little slower.
> I have also seen guys use grain alcohol so if you see a bottle of
> Everclear in a wood shop it may have a dual purpose.
>
> Not that denatured alcohol can absorb moisture and the water can give
> some problems (I have heard, never experienced). A fresh can won't
> have the problem. I buy the pint cans so it never gets too old even
> though a gallon is super cheap too.
>
> End grain will still super absorb gel stain. My recommendation for gel
> stain is to avoid blotchness and to build darker color easier. Gel
> stain is oil stain suspended in poly. So you can easily build it up to
> a darker color, not relying on absorbtion.
>
>
>
> On May 9, 3:38 pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What type of alcohol would you thin the shellac with?
>>
>> I have never used gel stain. Does it avoid some of the open grain
>> darkness had with the darker stains on open grains in oak?