Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got the stac=
kable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have the 3 box/cart k=
it as you described for $99. So far, so good.
I went and looked at them and they will fill the bill nicely.
NO ONE at the store can answer this, so I am hoping you can. I want to be =
able to lock the boxes together so they are secured and can't come apart. =
I know there is a "lock bar" that hold them together, but I can't find out =
if the kit comes with it. I want to be able to roll that to a client's hou=
se with the tools, and if I will be working there a few days, roll it into =
their garage, all locked up to keep the prying hands out.
I am compartmentalizing as much as possible these days and carrying a lot o=
f crap around in tool bags. A pretty good solution, but not lockable, and =
in fact too easy to get into. They seem to create a lot of interest. So a=
lockable solution seems to me to be the ticket.
So the big question (before they sell out again in San Antonio) is
Do the kit come with the "lock bar" to secure all three boxes together in t=
he cart or not?
Thanks for putting me on to these.
Robert
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 9:20:44 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
=20
> He's not assuming anything.
> He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
Yep. That's all it was. Seemed like some folks (perhaps reflectively) too=
k it personally.
> Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
> paycheck.
That's all I ever got where I worked before going back to self employment. =
You do X, and you get paid X. I never had an employer that embraced me, g=
ot to know me as a human being, and shared the joys, triumphs and sorrows o=
f my life with me. I worked, worked hard (to get promoted and more money) =
and got paid for my efforts.
> What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
> singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.
You can always tell the difference in attitude of someone who writes the ch=
ecks from their own pocket, takes on the responsibility for work on a scale=
that one lawsuit can ruin them, puts their name on legal and binding contr=
acts, someone that has been sued (been sued twice myself, once the judge ac=
tually laughed at the plaintiff, the other was found to be without merit), =
and carries all the responsibility on their own back. Every bit. Personal=
ly, I am not complaining about it, it's a lifestyle.
But a lifestyle entirely different from someone that simply manages project=
s, manages employees and manages themselves. It is easy to spot comments f=
rom folks that have not sat in front of their State labor department while =
they decide how to determine your future as an employer based on the action=
s of not only yourself, but your employees. You have little or no say as t=
he State labor boards are set up to protect the employees from unfair emplo=
yment practices, so they make certain assumptions before your hearing even =
starts.
That being said, I guess it has made me a real dick. I pay about 20% more =
than the prevailing wage to get the guys I want to work for me. They hate =
that, of course. I am paying a guy that has some rough times every single =
day, not once a week. A PITA, no doubt.
Today, one of the guys that has been with me for a while was on the verge o=
f a breakdown. Going through a nasty divorce and probably getting lesser c=
ustody of his kids, he is in awful shape. So I paid him $20 an hour to dri=
ve me around on my rounds today, bought him a great lunch at a favorite Mex=
ican food joint, filled his truck up, and when his battery was dying at the=
end of the day (he was too embarrassed to tell me something else was wrong=
) I had him pull into Walmart on the way back to the shop and I bought him =
a battery.
I can't tell you the animosity that starts with employees. I can do that n=
ow because I only have him, no one else to use the nine year old voice and =
say to me "Mike gets to do that, and I can't. That's not fair". =20
It is foolish and shows tremendous lack of responsible managerial skill to =
think you can sit and judge each employee according to your own set set of =
rules and metrics of achievement. Again, folks that say that haven't sat i=
n front of an board of inquiry from by the State to to determine why some e=
mployees get preferential treatment. Go ahead and try to explain how you l=
ike one worker better than another using any criteria.
In 35 years of employing people, I got serious about following the exact ru=
les of the State when I had my one and only grievance filed with the State.=
That was in the mid 80s. I went to every single class on employee manage=
ment the State offered, and took paid classes in Human Resource Management =
as well as writing employee handbooks. So one grievance FILED since the mi=
d 80s.
My model employee is this guy, and I have a few (not a lot!): We start at =
8, so he shows up 10 minutes early, says his hellos to the guys, and gets h=
is tools out and goes to work at8 or shortly after. Works independently, a=
nd I know if he is stopped he is just taking a breath or getting some water=
or Gatorade. Stop time about 10 minutes, usually around mid morning. Sto=
ps for lunch, repeats the morning schedule. If not working with them, I wil=
l bring them something cold to drink in the afternoon and get a handle on p=
rogress and any material needs. Repeat the next day.
If we finish a job a day or two early, I usually buy everyone lunch.
I don't know how old the folks here are that responded are, but their chest=
thumping about me caring when they piss is pure baloney. It does have the=
stench of a sensitive young man's hyperbole, though.
Maybe it is an age difference thing. My jobs are pretty happy places and t=
he guys get along great. The age factor though... no youngsters. The youn=
gest guy I have working for me right now (the aforementioned future divorce=
e) is 39. The rest that I have from time to time are anywhere from mid 50s=
to mid 60s. I guess maybe a bit old school, they don't expect any special=
consideration, just a fair shake. Still, if I don't watch them, the tend =
to round their time cards up a bit if they can. Strangely, that's OK, but =
not so much for me if I round their time in my favor.
That's the way of it. I will continue to work to find the best guys that I=
can and treat them as fairly as possible. But like MIKE said, it has to b=
e a two way street.
Robert =20
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> >
> > Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
> > professional thief.
>
> Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.
>
> Robert
Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?
From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml
"THE USE, VALUE AND THEFT OF 18TH-CENTURY GARDEN TOOLS
When Shovels and Dung Forks Were Among Life's Most Important Possessions"
Peoples' livelihoods directly depended on their garden tools. And the value
of those tools also made them a common target for thieves, as illustrated
by advertisements in the Pennsylvania Gazette.
Stolen hoes
In 1763, for example, Adam Reed of Lancaster County accompanied his local
constable to a spot where they found Mr. Reed's stolen property "hid in
the ground." Among the purloined articles unearthed were four grubbing
hoes, four shovels and two spades.
In another case, during the Revolutionary War, John Jones of Southwark
left personal tools in the care of one Captain Christian Grover "at the
time of the approach of the enemy" to Philadelphia. In 1778 Mr. Jones
advertised for the return of his property, promising that whoever returned
his belongings would be "rewarded in proportion to their trouble or expense."
Among his prized possessions were two spades, five garden hoes, one grubbing
hoe and two dung forks."
On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 9:57:31 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
=20
> I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders wh=
o=20
> if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It=
's=20
> one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the=20
> problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs=
=20
> back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of th=
e=20
> big things that cost them the election.
Seriously, how true is that? While there seem to be more lazy, uninspired =
lazy worker than ever before, there are some that really want to work. And=
once they get the hang of it and decide it is a good thing, they want to d=
o it. They found this out in the Great Depression; the fact that """at tha=
t time""" most people wanted a sense of accomplishment, and that hard work =
wasn't beneath them. They liked the even exchange of a full day's work for=
a full day's pay. It worked well back then, but it was a different ethos. =
People lined up at the CCC, WPA, etc. to get a chance at a road building, =
timber management, or other manual labor infrastructure jobs.
I am probably living in fairy land, but I think there are some of those fol=
ks still around that would excel in a system of fair pay for a fair shake a=
t work. Minimum wage was never meant to be a livable wage, it was never me=
ant to be wage to use to raise a family after you receive the rest of your =
govt bennies. Those jobs were to teach you how to work, teach you the impo=
rtance of being a team player, and to teach you the relationship of the emp=
loyer/employee. They were never about earning enough when flipping burgers=
that you could earn enough to raise a few kids,live in a neighborhood of y=
our choice,etc. You can't do it on $15 now, but that is the way it was sol=
d by the govt.
I knew this would happen, and my fellow business owner remember me talking =
about this the first time $15 came up about 3 years ago. Business will fin=
d a way around the $15, and it will be fine. And it is.
My amigo in the food service industry has reported back to me that they are=
getting in more prepackaged food to sell than ever before. I tasted his n=
ew samples of guacamole salad, carne guisada and barracho beans and they we=
re great! So for every one that buys enough of his product (which is quite=
good) they will be able to fire at least a couple of prep guys in the kitc=
hen and use the premade products. A couple of tweaks (more garlic, celantr=
o, etc.) and it is their own recipe. So the business owner (not the worker=
, his family, or the community) will benefit from this. Likewise, he emplo=
yer has two employees he doesn't have to manage or worry about.
Cost saving innovations driven by the market have some long reaching implic=
ations. Now several restaurants give you discounts if you order by app. B=
etter still, several restaurants now that have limited menus are asking you=
to order with a tablet on the table, no wait person! How many jobs is the=
employer able to cut? Say at Outback (where I saw this) they were able to=
lose 3 full time waitresses, you could now shift that pay over to busboys =
and dishwashers to make that $15 work.
But perhaps not for long. There is already a dishwashing unit available th=
at will sort and stack plates, and put the silverware in a hopper to be was=
hed. ONE busboy can now clean a restaurant, and one guy can unload the dis=
hwasher if they have this machine.
The whole $15 an hour minimum seems like a good idea, but we will have to s=
ee. No one will want high school kids that are learning just to come to wo=
rk at $15 an hour. When businesses find out what they can save by updating=
equipment, procedures, etc., they will pay $20 to a reliable dishwasher th=
at can operate their machine because they were able to get rid of 2-3 other=
jobs entirely.
Be sure about this; McDonalds is used to getting a black eye over their emp=
loyee treatment for issues real or imagined. Their long studies that inclu=
ding tinkering with their own menus have revealed that people will not give=
up cheap, fast food as a "go to" choice. So something has to give. Highe=
r wages with less employment, or higher wages and higher food costs. McDon=
alds experiments reveal that people want it both ways, but in the end the d=
on't want to pay $X for a hamburger. They want cheap and fsst, and oh... d=
on't forget to take care of the worker after you take care of me first.
Good post, J.
Robert
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An=20
> example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me=20
> that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the=20
> storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a=20
> screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the=20
> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at=
=20
> the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output=20
> dropped to the same as everyone else.
>=20
> Revenge was his.=20
You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt hurt, and dec=
ided to have an enforced slow down. He was no longer working to his abilit=
y, but being to spineless to QUIT, work it out with the manager (might not =
be possible) or accept the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated =
the same as all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with=
a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same rules as eve=
ryone else.
I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is taking and extra=
break every day to go smoke, so why are you pissed off at me for having an=
extra soda break behind the building? I just do it a couple of times a we=
ek, and he gets away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a=
pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board and compla=
ins that the manager has special pets that get special treatment. Employer =
is fined, his unemployment payroll factor is increased, and the whiny emplo=
yee gets unemployment based on discrimination.
As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad employee dec=
ision to keep all employees governed under the same set of rules than it is=
to make an exception that shows favoritism causing long term payment/fine =
consequences paid on your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided =
to screw the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T shirts.=20
I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used my tools and =
equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and tear on not only the tools=
but their consumables. Their reasoning? If they didn't use them, they wo=
uld just be sitting in the tool box. I have had great employees that use m=
y laptop and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the weeken=
ds to start a consulting business for prospective remodeling clients. Not t=
o do the work, but to help design and cost out the job. Their reasoning? "=
I was doing it to help me get more fluent with the software." The two guys=
that did that to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they wer=
e more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY, they were ki=
nd of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took a pen or not=
epad) or something big like the guy that used one of my company trucks to s=
tart a small junk hauling company. Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch;=
a few texts back and forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know ho=
w dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they are home"=
) and on an on.
Take a look:
https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dhow+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day=
&ie=3Dutf-8&oe=3Dutf-8
> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving=20
> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your intentions, no one m=
ade or asked you to stay, and you left. That isn't the same thing at all. =
In this instance, no doubt you were caught up at your job or worked extra =
as needed to get to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands without per=
mission, made personal calls at work, went home early after a training conf=
erence instead of going back to work for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am=
not saying you weren't a stellar employee, but never?
I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all subcontractor mo=
del for workers if at all possible. I pay them more than I would an employ=
ee, and they manage their own time. Typically, my average worker now is in=
their mid 40s, and they are trying to get their work done so they can go t=
o another job or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price=
per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it takes longer=
. But I also let them keep the difference if they finish early.
I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as well. I keep=
an account at a bank I don't like simply because they have a lot of locati=
ons and they don't charge my guys to cash a check. If there is a problem w=
ith ID, then the bank will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
With them managing their own time, their wives become their managers. They=
are called constantly by nagging wives that want to know when they will fi=
nish and when they will be home. Much better than me hammering on them to =
stay in the game. They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finish=
ed, they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they don't fini=
sh, they don't get money and then they face an unhappy evening.
So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of themselves. But I=
still put a little extra in the job knowing they will take a few saw blade=
s, nails, and be sloppy with the use of my tools and hard on them to boot. =
Occasionally they steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I was still goin=
g to small business seminars in the 80s. It helped me quite a bit as I was=
angry all the time about personal calls at work, missing office supplies, =
they guys that would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes=
late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head that they em=
ployees don't think of it as stealing, but rather justify their actions as =
needed to themselves, I got it.
Robert
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:26:12 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
=20
> Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?
>=20
> From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml
Never have. Over the last 40+ years I have equipped thieves with enough to=
ols to build a shopping mall many times over. I learned early that most pe=
ople range from slightly dishonest to downright thieves.
Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra ci=
garette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick =
day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer g=
ame, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many t=
imes did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "=
well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it=
hard tomorrow". Ever take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunc=
h/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conf=
erence was over early?
My employees take saw blades, recip saw blades, drive bits, drill bits, and=
put them on their tools and use them, then they are theirs. Since I own t=
he company, I must have plenty of money to buy those things since we always=
have them around, right? Please, no lecture on employee management from t=
he gallery. It is an accepted practice in today's construction fabric, as =
is stealing tools from your employer if you think you have been wronged in =
some way.
My clients have stolen from me. They want something free as they feel like=
it makes them better negotiators to get something free. Some are indignan=
t if I don't give them something... anything. And I even had one client tr=
y to steal my compressor and hoses that we left (with his enthusiastic perm=
ission) overnight on the job. After I replaced the compressor and we were =
finishing the job, I saw my compressor in his shed when someone left the do=
or open. It was behind other tools like his lawnmower, but he claimed it wa=
s an honest mistake.
My own truck has been broken into seven times at this point. I have had th=
ousands of dollars or material and tools taken from jobs and even the back =
of my truck.
I never thought or have thought it was different except in the punishment p=
hase. When I started in the trades it was different, and if you stole a to=
ol that prevented a man from making a living that fed his family, you had s=
ome dire consequences (and a helluva a beating)to face if caught. Now, not=
so much.
I have always thought the idea of a completely honest man is a bit of child=
ish whimsy, like unicorns or roads paved with candy canes.
If I thought even a small minority of people where honest and wouldn't stea=
l, I wouldn't bother with the locks on anything. And for me, the honest pe=
ople that observe the "it just keeps honest men honest" rule are ONLY as ho=
nest as the lock they face.
Robert
On 6/13/2017 10:26 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
>>> professional thief.
>>
>> Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.
>>
>> Robert
>
> Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?
>
> From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml
>
> "THE USE, VALUE AND THEFT OF 18TH-CENTURY GARDEN TOOLS
> When Shovels and Dung Forks Were Among Life's Most Important Possessions"
>
> Peoples' livelihoods directly depended on their garden tools. And the value
> of those tools also made them a common target for thieves, as illustrated
> by advertisements in the Pennsylvania Gazette.
>
> Stolen hoes
>
> In 1763, for example, Adam Reed of Lancaster County accompanied his local
> constable to a spot where they found Mr. Reed's stolen property "hid in
> the ground." Among the purloined articles unearthed were four grubbing
> hoes, four shovels and two spades.
>
> In another case, during the Revolutionary War, John Jones of Southwark
> left personal tools in the care of one Captain Christian Grover "at the
> time of the approach of the enemy" to Philadelphia. In 1778 Mr. Jones
> advertised for the return of his property, promising that whoever returned
> his belongings would be "rewarded in proportion to their trouble or expense."
> Among his prized possessions were two spades, five garden hoes, one grubbing
> hoe and two dung forks."
>
As long as there has been some kind of law enforcement, there has been
crime.
On another note, Stolen hoes. LOL What's a pimp to do?
I was watching the Family Feud and Steve Harvey ask the question, What
is the farmers wife jealous of? After a some thought the contestant
answered, her husbands hoe? Steve lost it.
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:36:32 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
>> example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
>> that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
>> storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
>> screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
>> the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
>> dropped to the same as everyone else.
>>
>> Revenge was his.
>
>You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT, work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same rules as everyone else.
>
>I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board and complains that the manager has special pets that get special treatment. Employer is fined, his unemployment payroll factor is increased, and the whiny employee gets unemployment based on discrimination.
>
>As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>
>Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T shirts.
>
>I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the weekends to start a consulting business for prospective remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY, they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
>
>I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company. Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they are home") and on an on.
>
>Take a look:
>
>https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>
>
>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>
>But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left. That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>
>Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands without permission, made personal calls at work, went home early after a training conference instead of going back to work for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a stellar employee, but never?
>
>I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time. Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they finish early.
>
>I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as well. I keep an account at a bank I don't like simply because they have a lot of locations and they don't charge my guys to cash a check. If there is a problem with ID, then the bank will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
>
>With them managing their own time, their wives become their managers. They are called constantly by nagging wives that want to know when they will finish and when they will be home. Much better than me hammering on them to stay in the game. They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finished, they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they don't finish, they don't get money and then they face an unhappy evening.
>
>So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of themselves. But I still put a little extra in the job knowing they will take a few saw blades, nails, and be sloppy with the use of my tools and hard on them to boot. Occasionally they steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
>
>I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>
>Robert
You must be a fun guy to work for.
On 6/16/2017 12:07 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 6/16/17 10:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Your employess steal time from you. All of them do.
>>>>
>>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently.
> When you filter out all the extraneous opinion, personal ideology, and
> bias based on negative experiences, you're BOTH right.
>
> I think it's very clear that Robert isn't painting with a broad brush.
> Setting aside those that outright steal physical items, he's talking
> about slackers and workers who try to get as much as they can for as
> little as possible. We've all seen these people and anyone who's worked
> in any kind of civil service knows this type very well. These are not
> the type of people referred to in that article.
My point originally is Robert's reference to "all" when there are
exceptions. Yes, people do steal and it comes in many forms.
Merchandise, time, tools. whatever.
>
> I'm guessing Robert has employed quite of few of those 52/17 types.
> Those are the type of employees you attract by paying more. Even though
> the type of work in this article is completely different from
> construction (which I can personally attest to), those differences are
> mostly irrelevant to this discussion.
Sounds like he did put together a good crew and working for the job
rther than by th hour thy hustle more. Of course you have to have the
right people that don't take shortcuts.
>
> It's about attitude and work ethic. This is why the whole $15 minimum
> wage thing is such a joke. The people asking for it are too stupid to
> realize that if their employee starts paying $15/hr., most of them will
> be out of a job because the higher pay will attract workers with better
> attitudes and work ethic.
>
> If some guy busting his ass all day working landscaping in the brutal
> heat figures out he can go work a cash register in air conditioning for
> the same or better money, that's one replaced fast food worker who
> likely doesn't have the kind of attitude nor work ethic it takes to bust
> your butt doing landscaping.
Want $15 and hour? Just work hard, learn to do things, show up, try
hard. You don't need a college education to make a very good wage if
you learn a skill and make some effort. Personally, I don't want to
hire a $15 guy, I'd rather have the guy trying to make $30. He has
ambition. He may not start there but can get there over time.
>
> But that's a tangent and we never go off on tangents in here. :-)
>
right, trigonometry needed here.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever
take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference was over early?
>
> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
> example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
> that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
> storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
> screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
> the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
> dropped to the same as everyone else.
>
> Revenge was his. A new tool came along and he asked for help to set it
> up. The engineer that designed it could not make the part. He had the
> toolmaker come and he could not get it to run either, then they went to
> lunch after investing a day plus of their time. Ten minutes later,
> Richard put a perfect part on my desk and said "can I go to the
> storeroom for gloves?" Yes, you can, any time you want.
>
> I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a goof off
> but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people do screw you on
> time, but what counts is what is done at the end of the day.
>
> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
<https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-rule-of-52-and-17-its-random-but-it-
ups-your-productivity>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> On 6/16/17 10:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >>>
> >>> On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take
> >>>> an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company
> >>>> time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off
> >>>> early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band
> >>>> recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did
> >>>> you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you
> >>>> say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's
> >>>> go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever
> >> take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment
> >> bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference
> >> was over early?
> >>>
> >>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently.
> >>> An example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy
> >>> working for me that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took
> >>> a walk to the storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My
> >>> boss thought he was a screw off and confined him to his machine;
> >>> no more trips to the storeroom for supplies. Before that, he
> >>> turned out 50% to 100% more at the end of the day than anyone
> >>> else. Tied to his machine, his output dropped to the same as
> >>> everyone else.
> >
> >>> I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a
> >>> goof off but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people
> >>> do screw you on time, but what counts is what is done at the end
> >>> of the day.
> >>>
> >>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm
> >>> leaving early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
> >>
> >> <https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-rule-of-52-and-17-its-random-but-it-
> >>
> >>
> ups-your-productivity>
> >>
> > Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day.
> > It is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check
> > down at the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of
> > breaks make more widgets per day than the ones that never leave their
> > work station.
> >
> > Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.
>
> When you filter out all the extraneous opinion, personal ideology, and
> bias based on negative experiences, you're BOTH right.
>
> I think it's very clear that Robert isn't painting with a broad brush.
> Setting aside those that outright steal physical items, he's talking
> about slackers and workers who try to get as much as they can for as
> little as possible. We've all seen these people and anyone who's worked
> in any kind of civil service knows this type very well. These are not
> the type of people referred to in that article.
>
> I'm guessing Robert has employed quite of few of those 52/17 types.
> Those are the type of employees you attract by paying more. Even though
> the type of work in this article is completely different from
> construction (which I can personally attest to), those differences are
> mostly irrelevant to this discussion.
>
> It's about attitude and work ethic. This is why the whole $15 minimum
> wage thing is such a joke. The people asking for it are too stupid to
> realize that if their employee starts paying $15/hr., most of them will
> be out of a job because the higher pay will attract workers with better
> attitudes and work ethic.
I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders who
if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It's
one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the
problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs
back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of the
big things that cost them the election.
> If some guy busting his ass all day working landscaping in the brutal
> heat figures out he can go work a cash register in air conditioning for
> the same or better money, that's one replaced fast food worker who
> likely doesn't have the kind of attitude nor work ethic it takes to bust
> your butt doing landscaping.
>
> But that's a tangent and we never go off on tangents in here. :-)
On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever
> take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference was over early?
>>
>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
>> example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
>> that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
>> storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
>> screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
>> the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
>> dropped to the same as everyone else.
>> I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a goof off
>> but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people do screw you on
>> time, but what counts is what is done at the end of the day.
>>
>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>
> <https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-rule-of-52-and-17-its-random-but-it-
> ups-your-productivity>
>
Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day. It
is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check down at
the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of breaks make more
widgets per day than the ones that never leave their work station.
Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.
On 6/15/2017 10:36 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
>> example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
>> that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
>> storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
>> screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
>> the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
>> dropped to the same as everyone else.
>>
>> Revenge was his.
>
> You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT, work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same rules as everyone else.
No, not really. As I stated, everyone works differently. If you tied
Richard to a machine he could not consistently work at the pace he did
in spurts. Another example. Loading a truck (floor load, no forklift)
takes most everyone 75 to 90 minutes. Glen does it in 45 to 60 but then
would take a break for 10 minutes. At the end of the day he does one or
two trucks more than anyone else but you want me to take away his breaks
so he does not get special treatment. Fact is, he was special and
outworked anyone in the shop.
>
> I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets away with it every day".
Right, and when you can do what the other guy does you can take breaks too.
>
> As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>
> Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T shirts.
Not so sure. You sound like a prick to work for. At the end of the day
tally up what was done, now how many smoke breaks they took.
>
> I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the weekends to start a consulting business for prospective remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY, they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
That does sound like abuse.
>
> I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company. Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they are home") and on an on.
Again. what is the tally at the end of the day. Texting can get out of
hand with a lot of people though.
>
> Take a look:
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>
>
>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>
> But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left. That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>
> Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands without permission, made personal calls at work, went home early after a training conference instead of going back to work for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a stellar employee, but never?
Did it all the time. Every few months I got my oil changed at a shop
about a mile up the road too. My email was always open on my computer.
Never took a pen though. I have better pens that I prefer to use. My
boss, the owner, does not care what I do all day. What he does care
about is the plant running efficiently and profitably.
>
> I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time. Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they finish early.
Yes, I bet they don't goof off when it is their time and money. Easier
to do in construction as opposed to a factory setting unless you go to
piece work.
> I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>
> Robert
>
Happens in every business. Just part of the cost of doing business,
cheaper than trying to change the morals and habits of the world.
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
.=20
> Short answer: yes.
Thanks for the speedy answer!
=20
> Long answer, the locking bar comes attached to the bottom, dolly tool
> box. It slides into a channel on the lid, which BTW, can come loose and
> be a bit of a PITA when not using it. So check a few different boxes
> and get the one that holds the bar the tightest.
That will be tough. They don't even have a display as they are flying out =
of my nearest store as soon as they unload the truck. Literally... I have =
three jobs going near a large HD, and they will have them palletized, sitti=
ng near the tools. Next day when I go to get material, they are ALL gone.
However, when I get it to the job, I will check that out first thing.
=20
> You cam see the bar in the pictures on the HD site, and see how it locks
> in a couple seconds of the video. Each box has a latch for a padlock
> and then you can padlock the bar, holding the 3 boxes together.
>=20
> Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
> professional thief.
Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.
Robert
On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 11:43:00 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 6/16/2017 8:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>>> Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
>>>> who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
>>>> piss. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.
>>>>
>>>
>>> He's not assuming anything.
>>
>> Wrong. He stated that they *are*. They all are.
>>
>>> He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
>>> Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
>>> paycheck.
>>
>> But if I'm treated like a dog, I'll find another master. ...as will
>> everyone else.
>>
>>> What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
>>> singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.
>>
>> They do. Constantly. FOrced overtime. Vacations canceled. Vacation
>> time lost. It happens.
>>
>> You sound like a moron.
>>
>
>What seems to be lost here is that people actually have control over
>their life and business.
>
>Don't like your boss? Quit
>Don't like your employee? Fire him/her
It's not lost on me! That's exactly my philosophy. My employer needs
me as much as I need him. Any other relationship is broken.
>
>Most of us have put up with a tyrant boss for a time but smart people
>make an exit plan and execute it.
>
>I'm sure we all have some stories on both sides for employer/employee
>abuse. I know of a company that pays at least 20% more than others to
>its supervisors. Why? The money is the only reason they put up with
>the crap they have to deal with.
>
>If an employee steals, fire him. State laws vary, but usually, an "at
>will" employee can be let go at any time for any reason.
Or none.
>Some employers
>will put up with some nonsense as the employee has exceptional skills.
>Your choice to make.
Precisely.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 22:31:10 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 6/16/17 7:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 21:20:41 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/15/17 6:42 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:05:31 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/15/17 11:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:36:32 -0700 (PDT),
>>>>>> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works
>>>>>>>> differently. An example, some years go I was a supervisor
>>>>>>>> and had a guy working for me that ran a tubing bending
>>>>>>>> machine. He often took a walk to the storeroom, took the
>>>>>>>> extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a screw off
>>>>>>>> and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>>>>>>>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to
>>>>>>>> 100% more at the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to
>>>>>>>> his machine, his output dropped to the same as everyone
>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Revenge was his.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt
>>>>>>> hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no
>>>>>>> longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT,
>>>>>>> work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept
>>>>>>> the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as
>>>>>>> all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with
>>>>>>> a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same
>>>>>>> rules as everyone else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is
>>>>>>> taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you
>>>>>>> pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the
>>>>>>> building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets
>>>>>>> away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a
>>>>>>> pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board
>>>>>>> and complains that the manager has special pets that get
>>>>>>> special treatment. Employer is fined, his unemployment payroll
>>>>>>> factor is increased, and the whiny employee gets unemployment
>>>>>>> based on discrimination.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad
>>>>>>> employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same
>>>>>>> set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows
>>>>>>> favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on
>>>>>>> your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw
>>>>>>> the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T
>>>>>>> shirts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used
>>>>>>> my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and
>>>>>>> tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their
>>>>>>> reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting
>>>>>>> in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop
>>>>>>> and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the
>>>>>>> weekends to start a consulting business for prospective
>>>>>>> remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and
>>>>>>> cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me
>>>>>>> get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that
>>>>>>> to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were
>>>>>>> more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY,
>>>>>>> they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took
>>>>>>> a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one
>>>>>>> of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company.
>>>>>>> Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and
>>>>>>> forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how
>>>>>>> dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they
>>>>>>> are home") and on an on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>>>>>>>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your
>>>>>>> intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left.
>>>>>>> That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt
>>>>>>> you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get
>>>>>>> to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands
>>>>>>> without permission, made personal calls at work, went home
>>>>>>> early after a training conference instead of going back to work
>>>>>>> for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a
>>>>>>> stellar employee, but never?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all
>>>>>>> subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them
>>>>>>> more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time.
>>>>>>> Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they
>>>>>>> are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job
>>>>>>> or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price
>>>>>>> per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it
>>>>>>> takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they
>>>>>>> finish early.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as
>>>>>>> well. I keep an account at a bank I don't like simply because
>>>>>>> they have a lot of locations and they don't charge my guys to
>>>>>>> cash a check. If there is a problem with ID, then the bank
>>>>>>> will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With them managing their own time, their wives become their
>>>>>>> managers. They are called constantly by nagging wives that
>>>>>>> want to know when they will finish and when they will be home.
>>>>>>> Much better than me hammering on them to stay in the game.
>>>>>>> They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finished,
>>>>>>> they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they
>>>>>>> don't finish, they don't get money and then they face an
>>>>>>> unhappy evening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of
>>>>>>> themselves. But I still put a little extra in the job knowing
>>>>>>> they will take a few saw blades, nails, and be sloppy with the
>>>>>>> use of my tools and hard on them to boot. Occasionally they
>>>>>>> steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I
>>>>>>> was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It
>>>>>>> helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about
>>>>>>> personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that
>>>>>>> would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes
>>>>>>> late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head
>>>>>>> that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather
>>>>>>> justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You must be a fun guy to work for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, what a real SOB. Doesn't want his employees stealing from
>>>>> him. Wants them working while he's paying them. He's such a jerk.
>>>>
>>>> Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
>>>> who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
>>>> piss. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.
>>>>
>>>
>>> He's not assuming anything.
>>
>> Wrong. He stated that they *are*. They all are.
>>
>>> He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
>>> Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
>>> paycheck.
>>
>> But if I'm treated like a dog, I'll find another master. ...as will
>> everyone else.
>>
>>> What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
>>> singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.
>>
>> They do. Constantly. FOrced overtime. Vacations canceled. Vacation
>> time lost. It happens.
>>
>> You sound like a moron.
>>
>
>Here you go again arguing for the sake of arguing.
>Some times you have great input an information and other times you just
>argue for the sake of arguing with nothing of value to contribute.
>
>Bi-polar. Seek help. There is medication available.
Don't give up your day job, Lucy.
On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference was over early?
All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
dropped to the same as everyone else.
Revenge was his. A new tool came along and he asked for help to set it
up. The engineer that designed it could not make the part. He had the
toolmaker come and he could not get it to run either, then they went to
lunch after investing a day plus of their time. Ten minutes later,
Richard put a perfect part on my desk and said "can I go to the
storeroom for gloves?" Yes, you can, any time you want.
I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a goof off
but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people do screw you on
time, but what counts is what is done at the end of the day.
As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 22:57:25 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> On 6/16/17 10:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> > On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> >>>
>> >>> On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take
>> >>>> an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company
>> >>>> time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off
>> >>>> early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band
>> >>>> recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did
>> >>>> you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you
>> >>>> say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's
>> >>>> go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever
>> >> take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment
>> >> bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference
>> >> was over early?
>> >>>
>> >>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently.
>> >>> An example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy
>> >>> working for me that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took
>> >>> a walk to the storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My
>> >>> boss thought he was a screw off and confined him to his machine;
>> >>> no more trips to the storeroom for supplies. Before that, he
>> >>> turned out 50% to 100% more at the end of the day than anyone
>> >>> else. Tied to his machine, his output dropped to the same as
>> >>> everyone else.
>> >
>> >>> I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a
>> >>> goof off but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people
>> >>> do screw you on time, but what counts is what is done at the end
>> >>> of the day.
>> >>>
>> >>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm
>> >>> leaving early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>> >>
>> >> <https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-rule-of-52-and-17-its-random-but-it-
>> >>
>> >>
>> ups-your-productivity>
>> >>
>> > Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day.
>> > It is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check
>> > down at the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of
>> > breaks make more widgets per day than the ones that never leave their
>> > work station.
>> >
>> > Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.
>>
>> When you filter out all the extraneous opinion, personal ideology, and
>> bias based on negative experiences, you're BOTH right.
>>
>> I think it's very clear that Robert isn't painting with a broad brush.
>> Setting aside those that outright steal physical items, he's talking
>> about slackers and workers who try to get as much as they can for as
>> little as possible. We've all seen these people and anyone who's worked
>> in any kind of civil service knows this type very well. These are not
>> the type of people referred to in that article.
>>
>> I'm guessing Robert has employed quite of few of those 52/17 types.
>> Those are the type of employees you attract by paying more. Even though
>> the type of work in this article is completely different from
>> construction (which I can personally attest to), those differences are
>> mostly irrelevant to this discussion.
>>
>> It's about attitude and work ethic. This is why the whole $15 minimum
>> wage thing is such a joke. The people asking for it are too stupid to
>> realize that if their employee starts paying $15/hr., most of them will
>> be out of a job because the higher pay will attract workers with better
>> attitudes and work ethic.
>
>I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders who
>if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It's
>one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the
>problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs
>back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of the
>big things that cost them the election.
Stop making sense! Democrats will never understand even the most
common variety.
On 6/13/17 9:57 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got
> the stackable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have
> the 3 box/cart kit as you described for $99. So far, so good.
>
> I went and looked at them and they will fill the bill nicely.
>
> NO ONE at the store can answer this, so I am hoping you can. I want
> to be able to lock the boxes together so they are secured and can't
> come apart. I know there is a "lock bar" that hold them together,
> but I can't find out if the kit comes with it. I want to be able to
> roll that to a client's house with the tools, and if I will be
> working there a few days, roll it into their garage, all locked up
> to keep the prying hands out.
>
> I am compartmentalizing as much as possible these days and carrying
> a lot of crap around in tool bags. A pretty good solution, but not
> lockable, and in fact too easy to get into. They seem to create a
> lot of interest. So a lockable solution seems to me to be the
> ticket.
>
> So the big question (before they sell out again in San Antonio) is
>
> Do the kit come with the "lock bar" to secure all three boxes
> together in the cart or not?
>
> Thanks for putting me on to these.
>
> Robert
>
Short answer: yes.
Long answer, the locking bar comes attached to the bottom, dolly tool
box. It slides into a channel on the lid, which BTW, can come loose and
be a bit of a PITA when not using it. So check a few different boxes
and get the one that holds the bar the tightest.
You cam see the bar in the pictures on the HD site, and see how it locks
in a couple seconds of the video. Each box has a latch for a padlock
and then you can padlock the bar, holding the 3 boxes together.
Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
professional thief.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 9:57:31 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders who
>> if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It's
>> one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the
>> problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs
>> back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of the
>> big things that cost them the election.
>
>Seriously, how true is that? While there seem to be more lazy, uninspired lazy worker than ever before, there are some that really want to work. And once they get the hang of it and decide it is a good thing, they want to do it. They found this out in the Great Depression; the fact that """at that time""" most people wanted a sense of accomplishment, and that hard work wasn't beneath them. They liked the even exchange of a full day's work for a full day's pay. It worked well back then, but it was a different ethos. People lined up at the CCC, WPA, etc. to get a chance at a road building, timber management, or other manual labor infrastructure jobs.
How many of today's workers were around during the Depression? How
many learned from that experience?
>I am probably living in fairy land, but I think there are some of those folks still around that would excel in a system of fair pay for a fair shake at work. Minimum wage was never meant to be a livable wage, it was never meant to be wage to use to raise a family after you receive the rest of your govt bennies. Those jobs were to teach you how to work, teach you the importance of being a team player, and to teach you the relationship of the employer/employee. They were never about earning enough when flipping burgers that you could earn enough to raise a few kids,live in a neighborhood of your choice,etc. You can't do it on $15 now, but that is the way it was sold by the govt.
If you're that good, you would be worth more than $15/hr. People can
only be paid what they can bring in, in economic benefit to their
employer. If they're doing $30 worth of work, they can make more. I
they only do $5 worth of work and the minimum wage is $15, they have
no job.
>I knew this would happen, and my fellow business owner remember me talking about this the first time $15 came up about 3 years ago. Business will find a way around the $15, and it will be fine. And it is.
Businesses will be fine. Get used to dealing with kiosks in fast food
restaurants, though. There won't be any workers. High school kids
will be unemployable. There will be no working one's way through
college, either. Get used to even more crushed under the burden of
college debt.
>My amigo in the food service industry has reported back to me that they are getting in more prepackaged food to sell than ever before. I tasted his new samples of guacamole salad, carne guisada and barracho beans and they were great! So for every one that buys enough of his product (which is quite good) they will be able to fire at least a couple of prep guys in the kitchen and use the premade products. A couple of tweaks (more garlic, celantro, etc.) and it is their own recipe. So the business owner (not the worker, his family, or the community) will benefit from this. Likewise, he employer has two employees he doesn't have to manage or worry about.
Sure. More jobs gone.
>Cost saving innovations driven by the market have some long reaching implications. Now several restaurants give you discounts if you order by app. Better still, several restaurants now that have limited menus are asking you to order with a tablet on the table, no wait person! How many jobs is the employer able to cut? Say at Outback (where I saw this) they were able to lose 3 full time waitresses, you could now shift that pay over to busboys and dishwashers to make that $15 work.
Sure. More jobs gone.
>But perhaps not for long. There is already a dishwashing unit available that will sort and stack plates, and put the silverware in a hopper to be washed. ONE busboy can now clean a restaurant, and one guy can unload the dishwasher if they have this machine.
See above.
>The whole $15 an hour minimum seems like a good idea, but we will have to see. No one will want high school kids that are learning just to come to work at $15 an hour. When businesses find out what they can save by updating equipment, procedures, etc., they will pay $20 to a reliable dishwasher that can operate their machine because they were able to get rid of 2-3 other jobs entirely.
Wrong. See above.
>Be sure about this; McDonalds is used to getting a black eye over their employee treatment for issues real or imagined. Their long studies that including tinkering with their own menus have revealed that people will not give up cheap, fast food as a "go to" choice. So something has to give. Higher wages with less employment, or higher wages and higher food costs. McDonalds experiments reveal that people want it both ways, but in the end the don't want to pay $X for a hamburger. They want cheap and fsst, and oh... don't forget to take care of the worker after you take care of me first.
McDonalds is not the employer. Their franchises employ the minimum
wage workers. I can't imagine that every one is the same. Seems to
me it's just more leftist tripe.
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6/19/2017 12:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>
>> If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't be self employed. I should have
>> gone to work at a government job, a civil service job, gone to the
>> military, the public utilities, or even one of the big monster companies
>> that were big in their day. 30 years, and out.
>
> A policeman here in CT was able to retire before some questionable
> disciplinary situation. He is 54 years old and his pension is $127,000
> a year. You may be right.
>
>
>
>>
>> I think the last really large companies that I know that employ pretty
>> Draconian measures (by this group's standards) for their workforce is
>> Amazon, Toyota, and for new hires, USAA. All have a huge presence here,
>> between Toyota and USAA alone they have over 30,000 workers. So
>> everyone here knows someone that works at one of those.
>>
>> Here's the nasty rule of employee law they use on their employees:
>>
>> - you must be at your station WORKING when your shift starts. No
>> excuses (car broke down, grandmother #6 died this morning but I cam to
>> work anyway, wife sick, kid sick, ate something bad, dog ate my
>> homework, etc.) go undocumented. Excessive documented absence means termination
>>
>> - no more than 2 bathroom breaks in the morning, and nor more than 2 in the afternoon
>>
>> - you have one break you must take of 15 minutes in the morning, and one in the afternoon
>>
>> - you must take lunch every day
> some rules snipped. . .
> In a large company those rules are common and really, the break and
> bathroom time is reasonable. I know places with less breaks.
>
>
>>
>> They all pay low to start, wanting to separate the wheat from the chaff,
>> winnowing out the folks that don't want to be there. Your commitment is
>> an indicator of your earnest attitude to be a good employee.
>>
>> All that sounds great to me! But I can see that for most here, that
>> wouldn't fly for a second. And as an owner of a small business, I can't
>> be that stringent because employees take everything (like here) very, very personally.
>
> That is why I never worked for a company like that, especially in some
> of the non-thinking-robotic jobs. I'd go nuts after an hour on an
> assembly line or processing paperwork over and over. .
>
>
>>
>> My painter called this morning... "Robert, I am running a few late.
>> Just wanted you to know so you can wait for me. Got into again with my
>> old lady... she always waits until I am walking out the door to start her shit..."
>>
>> So he is 30 minutes late. Blows my morning schedule up. He works for a
>> couple of hours and says, "hey, I will need to get off early today to
>> pick up the kids from school. My Mom has a doctor's appointment today
>> so she can't pick them up". He thinks since he is a responsible father,
>> I should pay him for the whole day,
>
> Does he do a day's work? He is best paid by the job rather than the
> hour. This is a $xxx job and has to be done by nest Tuesday.
>
>
>
>>
>> I would say with the last 20 years or so under my belt, this is a
>> typical worker. His upside is that he works like a demon when he gets
>> here, but when distracted makes as many mistakes as daily progress. So typical.
>>
>> When I get a good employee, I treat them like gold. They don't lie to
>> me, they take care of my tools, they work hard for a full day, they are
>> reliable and show up on time, they have pride in their work... they own
>> me. I have a couple like that. They don't work for me full time as
>> they get a few side jobs, the go off and do those for a handful of cash
>> (no doubt unreported) and they call me when they run out of work. Great
>> guys, good workers, a pleasure to have on your job, but lucky me, really
>> crappy business men.
>
> Yes, that sounds ideal. What if he need an oil change?
>
>>
>> One of them gets more done in 6 hours than anyone I have had doing the
>> same job gets done in 8. He has pretty bad health, so he doesn't work
>> fast, but not a wasted stroke from him and he never takes a break, only
>> a 30 minute lunch. I don't mind paying him for a full day. But he
>> doesn't sleep at work, he doesn't walk off to do personal crap during he
>> business day leaving his coworkers in the lurch, either. He knows he is
>> important, and understands his responsibilities. I love having him around.
>
> So you see my point. He gets his work for a full day done is 6 hours.
> You don't jump on a guy like that if he takes an extra smoke break.
> Maybe if he took a short nap he could get even more done.
>
>
>>
>> As you guys have said that I would be an ass to work for, I cannot
>> imagine what it would be like to have you guys as co workers (the
>> correct term for small business employee/employer relations in my mind).
>> I cannot imagine the job site rolling along with all of us working,
>> tools in hand (including me) what my reaction would be to have a guy we
>> were counting on saunter up the job when he felt like it. I did find an
>> employee sleeping in my company truck once after he had gone missing for
>> about an hour. That didn't go well. For me.
>
> Depends on what they are doing. If a crew is needed for a particular
> function, yes, they have to be there to work together. But if I'm
> painting the ceiling i don't give a damn when the plumber in the next
> room takes his nap.
>
>
>
>>
>> Nah... I think only -MIKE- gets it because he is rowing the same boat.
>> You can only work with the workforce that is available. I'll take my
>> guys anytime over the rest of the crap. I think too, my employees are
>> pretty happy as they know what is expected of them, and that I will back
>> them as needed. They sure have been enjoying giving me a lot of crap
>> after I read some of this to them. One even conjured up Monty Python's
>> "help! help! I'm being repressed!"
>
> Good. Then it does not matter what the rest of us do.
>
>>
>> Now they have all seen this:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtYU87QNjPw
>>
>> And I am listening as of last week to bad replicas of English accents
>> while being accused of "repression". At least this thread puts a smile
>> on the guys faces when they think about it. Hopefully this week they
>> will stop asking me if they can go get an oil change during the day.
>> They are having waaayyy to much fun with this.
>
> I never asked, I just went. No one ever tracked my time. At the end of
> the month I got the same pay check. Always got a nice bonus at the end
> of the year too.
>
>
>>
>> They are a confident group, and should be. I stand by all of my
>> decisions; if I tell them to do something wrong, I pay them to fix it.
>> If they make a mistake and it wasn't because they were shopping on their
>> phone for the best oil change deal, I will pay them to fix their own
>> mistakes. MY next perfect day will be my first one. I don't make daily
>> mistakes, but I make up for that by making some really big ones, or several a day.
>>
>> I would really love to hear the collective's take on things when they
>> have 30 years of being a check writing employer. Wonder what it would be like then.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
> material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
> them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
> board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
> jobs. Total about 15 employees.
>
>
I signed the checks for a business but even then it was not the same as
signing checks for my own small business. When it is your money you think
a bit longer and harder about signing that check.
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:13:17 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> I read recently that there is a movement to make McDonalds responsible=20
> for wages and labor compliance issues for all stores, including=20
> franchisees. Seems wrong to me.
From that article and something I saw on Bloomberg, McD's said they were wa=
nting to have around 5% (it's a goal, anyway) McD's ownership of their own =
so they can continue to use the restaurants as test beds.
But if the >>government<< is looking to make McD's responsible for labor re=
lations, labor management, wages as per regional norms, etc., etc., that is=
indeed just plain wrong. If McD's wanted to do the hard part they would b=
e buying back their stores, not selling them.
Robert
On 6/21/2017 8:24 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 6/21/2017 8:52 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>> I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
>>> material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
>>> them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
>>> board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
>>> jobs. Total about 15 employees.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I signed the checks for a business but even then it was not the same as
>> signing checks for my own small business. When it is your money you
>> think
>> a bit longer and harder about signing that check.
>>
>
> Authorizing the check to be written directly affected my bonus and
> profit sharing.
Mine too. But with "my" business I also put more thought into things
other than business related. Vacation this year? Lots more goes into
this when using my money, do I want to eat this week, can I wait to pay
a bill until next week?
It makes a big difference when some one else is spending "your" money.
On 6/16/2017 8:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
>>> who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
>>> piss. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.
>>>
>>
>> He's not assuming anything.
>
> Wrong. He stated that they *are*. They all are.
>
>> He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
>> Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
>> paycheck.
>
> But if I'm treated like a dog, I'll find another master. ...as will
> everyone else.
>
>> What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
>> singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.
>
> They do. Constantly. FOrced overtime. Vacations canceled. Vacation
> time lost. It happens.
>
> You sound like a moron.
>
What seems to be lost here is that people actually have control over
their life and business.
Don't like your boss? Quit
Don't like your employee? Fire him/her
Most of us have put up with a tyrant boss for a time but smart people
make an exit plan and execute it.
I'm sure we all have some stories on both sides for employer/employee
abuse. I know of a company that pays at least 20% more than others to
its supervisors. Why? The money is the only reason they put up with
the crap they have to deal with.
If an employee steals, fire him. State laws vary, but usually, an "at
will" employee can be let go at any time for any reason. Some employers
will put up with some nonsense as the employee has exceptional skills.
Your choice to make.
On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 10:31:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
=20
> Here you go again arguing for the sake of arguing.
> Some times you have great input an information and other times you just=
=20
> argue for the sake of arguing with nothing of value to contribute.
> -MIKE-
Wow, this has gone from surreal to bizarre. Who is treating employees like=
dogs? Who has a "master/slave" relationship with their employees? Who is=
abusing their employees with their tyrannical ways?
I showed one of my good guys that has been with me for a few years now this=
post and he laughed his ass off. He immediately started with "hey dude...=
I wanna go get an oil change this afternoon while I am on the clock. Can =
I get you to pay for it too?" and "Robert, since it is so hot, I need a nap=
now and then during the day. You OK with that?" Now the joke across the =
boys is that they are all abused by me and I owe them lunch.
Due to the extreme near hysterics here, I ran some of it by my fellow busin=
ess owners, and they all got a pretty good laugh. None took any of it seri=
ously.
In my end of business, construction, it must be quite different than the ot=
her business many here have participated in. No doubt with the surfeit if =
retirees, the business model of today is different than even 20 years ago, =
making it hard for some to understand.
Today's employee/employer relationship in the world of small business is mo=
re of a group effort, with the owner being at the front of the parade. Mos=
t small business owners feel like they work for their employees to some ext=
ent, and none feel like they run the business. With the State employee com=
mission ready to hear ANY grievance, television attorneys (here, anyway) sc=
reaming for you to call them if you feel you have been wronged in any way c=
onceivable by your employer, the stringent NLRB rules that are an umbrella =
for any state/federal guidelines that must be followed, the increased burde=
n put on businesses for reporting employee activity and the need to keep ac=
curate records on each employee in case any of the above examples are off a=
tick, no one I know feels as an employer that they work for themselves.
I will agree that everyone here is would be the kind of employee that someo=
ne would consider a gift from on high, you might be surprised at how you ar=
e treated in today's business world.
If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't be self employed. I should have go=
ne to work at a government job, a civil service job, gone to the military, =
the public utilities, or even one of the big monster companies that were bi=
g in their day. 30 years, and out. Then (having most likely achieved all =
I wanted) I could sit back and joint the lecture on how the world works fro=
m a cocoon of security firmly wrapped around me at all times. Sure, I migh=
t have missed a promotion, been wrongfully fired (but eventually rehired) a=
nd had the other travails that plague corporate folks. Some of my friends =
have done that, but that wasn't my path, and truthfully, I am no sorry. Wh=
at gets me to think about these things is that there are indeed plenty of p=
eople that sleep during the work day, shop, walk off early when they want, =
run personal errands during the work day, and generally do as they please w=
hile getting paid. I feel like an idiot for not signing up.
I think the last really large companies that I know that employ pretty Drac=
onian measures (by this group's standards) for their workforce is Amazon, T=
oyota, and for new hires, USAA. All have a huge presence here, between Toy=
ota and USAA alone they have over 30,000 workers. So everyone here knows s=
omeone that works at one of those.
Here's the nasty rule of employee law they use on their employees:
- you must be at your station WORKING when your shift starts. No excuses (=
car broke down, grandmother #6 died this morning but I cam to work anyway, =
wife sick, kid sick, ate something bad, dog ate my homework, etc.) go undoc=
umented. Excessive documented absence means termination
- no more than 2 bathroom breaks in the morning, and nor more than 2 in the=
afternoon
- you have one break you must take of 15 minutes in the morning, and one in=
the afternoon
- you must take lunch every day
- no sleeping during your shift
- no eating during your shift (unless medically needed such as a glucose ta=
blet for diabetics)=20
- no personal errands while on the company clock
- no cell phone used unless on break or lunch
- no unauthorized time off=20
- sick days are valid only if the employee calls in. Excessive absence may=
require proof of doctor visit
- you must take all Federal holidays
- no unauthorized overtime (recent rules mean that even salaried people can=
not work more than the Federal mandate even under salary)
- you have to maintain a clean appearance, observe personal hygiene, and dr=
ess appropriately (each has their own dress code)
They all pay low to start, wanting to separate the wheat from the chaff, wi=
nnowing out the folks that don't want to be there. Your commitment is an i=
ndicator of your earnest attitude to be a good employee.
All that sounds great to me! But I can see that for most here, that wouldn=
't fly for a second. And as an owner of a small business, I can't be that =
stringent because employees take everything (like here) very, very personal=
ly. =20
My painter called this morning... "Robert, I am running a few late. Just w=
anted you to know so you can wait for me. Got into again with my old lady.=
.. she always waits until I am walking out the door to start her shit..."
So he is 30 minutes late. Blows my morning schedule up. He works for a co=
uple of hours and says, "hey, I will need to get off early today to pick up=
the kids from school. My Mom has a doctor's appointment today so she can'=
t pick them up". He thinks since he is a responsible father, I should pay =
him for the whole day, as well as they days he takes his kids to the doctor=
because his non working wife doesn't want to, or has to take a 3 hour lunc=
h to resolve something at the kid's school. But he will get in around 5 1/=
2 hours today as I don't pay for wife fights. By Friday will have forgotten=
all about it, and will wonder why his check isn't full. He had a short we=
ek last week, and I gave him a chance to make up the hours on Saturday, but=
since he and his wife are fighting he decided to pass. Then he shows up l=
ate today. =20
I would say with the last 20 years or so under my belt, this is a typical w=
orker. His upside is that he works like a demon when he gets here, but whe=
n distracted makes as many mistakes as daily progress. So typical.
When I get a good employee, I treat them like gold. They don't lie to me, =
they take care of my tools, they work hard for a full day, they are reliabl=
e and show up on time, they have pride in their work... they own me. I hav=
e a couple like that. They don't work for me full time as they get a few s=
ide jobs, the go off and do those for a handful of cash (no doubt unreporte=
d) and they call me when they run out of work. Great guys, good workers, a=
pleasure to have on your job, but lucky me, really crappy business men.
One of them gets more done in 6 hours than anyone I have had doing the same=
job gets done in 8. He has pretty bad health, so he doesn't work fast, bu=
t not a wasted stroke from him and he never takes a break, only a 30 minute=
lunch. I don't mind paying him for a full day. But he doesn't sleep at w=
ork, he doesn't walk off to do personal crap during he business day leaving=
his coworkers in the lurch, either. He knows he is important, and underst=
ands his responsibilities. I love having him around.
As you guys have said that I would be an ass to work for, I cannot imagine =
what it would be like to have you guys as co workers (the correct term for =
small business employee/employer relations in my mind). I cannot imagine t=
he job site rolling along with all of us working, tools in hand (including =
me) what my reaction would be to have a guy we were counting on saunter up =
the job when he felt like it. I did find an employee sleeping in my compan=
y truck once after he had gone missing for about an hour. That didn't go w=
ell. For me.
Nah... I think only -MIKE- gets it because he is rowing the same boat. You=
can only work with the workforce that is available. I'll take my guys any=
time over the rest of the crap. I think too, my employees are pretty happy=
as they know what is expected of them, and that I will back them as needed=
. They sure have been enjoying giving me a lot of crap after I read some of=
this to them. One even conjured up Monty Python's "help! help! I'm being =
repressed!"
Now they have all seen this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZtYU87QNjPw
And I am listening as of last week to bad replicas of English accents while=
being accused of "repression". At least this thread puts a smile on the g=
uys faces when they think about it. Hopefully this week they will stop ask=
ing me if they can go get an oil change during the day. They are having wa=
aayyy to much fun with this.=20
They are a confident group, and should be. I stand by all of my decisions;=
if I tell them to do something wrong, I pay them to fix it. If they make =
a mistake and it wasn't because they were shopping on their phone for the b=
est oil change deal, I will pay them to fix their own mistakes. MY next pe=
rfect day will be my first one. I don't make daily mistakes, but I make up =
for that by making some really big ones, or several a day.
I would really love to hear the collective's take on things when they have =
30 years of being a check writing employer. Wonder what it would be like t=
hen.
Robert=20
On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 8:46:33 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Not sure whether you were agreeing with my findings and opinions or relying=
on some sardonic observation in your comments to carry your thoughts. Read=
ing of current market trends and predictions of the effects of a $15 dollar=
wage is not a good idea. My observations aren't unique, and certainly not=
original. Nor are the long term predictions for the ramifications of a $1=
5 minimum wage.
I have not dog in that fight and at this point don't really have the time t=
o worry about what the politicians trying to recreate The Great Society are=
up to. Minimum wage workers only represent my cleanup guys and overall la=
bor, which in my end of construction only represents a small part of my ove=
rall job cost. They are easily passed to the consumer by me, so no harm, n=
o foul.=20
> McDonalds is not the employer. Their franchises employ the minimum
> wage workers. I can't imagine that every one is the same. Seems to
> me it's just more leftist tripe.
Guess it's easier to label, dismiss, and call names to things you are unawa=
re or simply ignorant of. As of this time last year, it is reported that n=
early 20% of McDonalds stores are corporate stores. This may be at odds wit=
h your own research, but I will take Motley Fool's piece on this subject ov=
er your research. No offense, and if you have any information that McDonal=
d's owns no stores, I will contact MF myself with your findings.
https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/04/03/what-percentage-of-mcdona=
lds-restaurants-are-owned.aspx
McDonalds has spent millions using some of their own stores are test beds f=
or labor relations, product placement, product, training, etc. They regular=
ly release their findings to the public, and their findings can be anywhere=
from mundane to nearly incredible depending on the subject matter. While =
they are currently trying to get the franchisees to take the whole burden o=
f overhead on themselves, they haven't done it yet.
Robert
On 6/19/2017 12:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't be self employed. I should have gone to work at a government job, a civil service job, gone to the military, the public utilities, or even one of the big monster companies that were big in their day. 30 years, and out.
A policeman here in CT was able to retire before some questionable
disciplinary situation. He is 54 years old and his pension is $127,000
a year. You may be right.
>
> I think the last really large companies that I know that employ pretty Draconian measures (by this group's standards) for their workforce is Amazon, Toyota, and for new hires, USAA. All have a huge presence here, between Toyota and USAA alone they have over 30,000 workers. So everyone here knows someone that works at one of those.
>
> Here's the nasty rule of employee law they use on their employees:
>
> - you must be at your station WORKING when your shift starts. No excuses (car broke down, grandmother #6 died this morning but I cam to work anyway, wife sick, kid sick, ate something bad, dog ate my homework, etc.) go undocumented. Excessive documented absence means termination
>
> - no more than 2 bathroom breaks in the morning, and nor more than 2 in the afternoon
>
> - you have one break you must take of 15 minutes in the morning, and one in the afternoon
>
> - you must take lunch every day
some rules snipped. . .
In a large company those rules are common and really, the break and
bathroom time is reasonable. I know places with less breaks.
>
> They all pay low to start, wanting to separate the wheat from the chaff, winnowing out the folks that don't want to be there. Your commitment is an indicator of your earnest attitude to be a good employee.
>
> All that sounds great to me! But I can see that for most here, that wouldn't fly for a second. And as an owner of a small business, I can't be that stringent because employees take everything (like here) very, very personally.
That is why I never worked for a company like that, especially in some
of the non-thinking-robotic jobs. I'd go nuts after an hour on an
assembly line or processing paperwork over and over. .
>
> My painter called this morning... "Robert, I am running a few late. Just wanted you to know so you can wait for me. Got into again with my old lady... she always waits until I am walking out the door to start her shit..."
>
> So he is 30 minutes late. Blows my morning schedule up. He works for a couple of hours and says, "hey, I will need to get off early today to pick up the kids from school. My Mom has a doctor's appointment today so she can't pick them up". He thinks since he is a responsible father, I should pay him for the whole day,
Does he do a day's work? He is best paid by the job rather than the
hour. This is a $xxx job and has to be done by nest Tuesday.
>
> I would say with the last 20 years or so under my belt, this is a typical worker. His upside is that he works like a demon when he gets here, but when distracted makes as many mistakes as daily progress. So typical.
>
> When I get a good employee, I treat them like gold. They don't lie to me, they take care of my tools, they work hard for a full day, they are reliable and show up on time, they have pride in their work... they own me. I have a couple like that. They don't work for me full time as they get a few side jobs, the go off and do those for a handful of cash (no doubt unreported) and they call me when they run out of work. Great guys, good workers, a pleasure to have on your job, but lucky me, really crappy business men.
Yes, that sounds ideal. What if he need an oil change?
>
> One of them gets more done in 6 hours than anyone I have had doing the same job gets done in 8. He has pretty bad health, so he doesn't work fast, but not a wasted stroke from him and he never takes a break, only a 30 minute lunch. I don't mind paying him for a full day. But he doesn't sleep at work, he doesn't walk off to do personal crap during he business day leaving his coworkers in the lurch, either. He knows he is important, and understands his responsibilities. I love having him around.
So you see my point. He gets his work for a full day done is 6 hours.
You don't jump on a guy like that if he takes an extra smoke break.
Maybe if he took a short nap he could get even more done.
>
> As you guys have said that I would be an ass to work for, I cannot imagine what it would be like to have you guys as co workers (the correct term for small business employee/employer relations in my mind). I cannot imagine the job site rolling along with all of us working, tools in hand (including me) what my reaction would be to have a guy we were counting on saunter up the job when he felt like it. I did find an employee sleeping in my company truck once after he had gone missing for about an hour. That didn't go well. For me.
Depends on what they are doing. If a crew is needed for a particular
function, yes, they have to be there to work together. But if I'm
painting the ceiling i don't give a damn when the plumber in the next
room takes his nap.
>
> Nah... I think only -MIKE- gets it because he is rowing the same boat. You can only work with the workforce that is available. I'll take my guys anytime over the rest of the crap. I think too, my employees are pretty happy as they know what is expected of them, and that I will back them as needed. They sure have been enjoying giving me a lot of crap after I read some of this to them. One even conjured up Monty Python's "help! help! I'm being repressed!"
Good. Then it does not matter what the rest of us do.
>
> Now they have all seen this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtYU87QNjPw
>
> And I am listening as of last week to bad replicas of English accents while being accused of "repression". At least this thread puts a smile on the guys faces when they think about it. Hopefully this week they will stop asking me if they can go get an oil change during the day. They are having waaayyy to much fun with this.
I never asked, I just went. No one ever tracked my time. At the end of
the month I got the same pay check. Always got a nice bonus at the end
of the year too.
>
> They are a confident group, and should be. I stand by all of my decisions; if I tell them to do something wrong, I pay them to fix it. If they make a mistake and it wasn't because they were shopping on their phone for the best oil change deal, I will pay them to fix their own mistakes. MY next perfect day will be my first one. I don't make daily mistakes, but I make up for that by making some really big ones, or several a day.
>
> I would really love to hear the collective's take on things when they have 30 years of being a check writing employer. Wonder what it would be like then.
>
> Robert
>
I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
jobs. Total about 15 employees.
On 6/20/2017 1:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>> McDonalds is not the employer. Their franchises employ the minimum
>> wage workers. I can't imagine that every one is the same. Seems to
>> me it's just more leftist tripe.
>
> Guess it's easier to label, dismiss, and call names to things you are unaware or simply ignorant of. As of this time last year, it is reported that nearly 20% of McDonalds stores are corporate stores. This may be at odds with your own research, but I will take Motley Fool's piece on this subject over your research. No offense, and if you have any information that McDonald's owns no stores, I will contact MF myself with your findings.
>
> https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/04/03/what-percentage-of-mcdonalds-restaurants-are-owned.aspx
>
> McDonalds has spent millions using some of their own stores are test beds for labor relations, product placement, product, training, etc. They regularly release their findings to the public, and their findings can be anywhere from mundane to nearly incredible depending on the subject matter. While they are currently trying to get the franchisees to take the whole burden of overhead on themselves, they haven't done it yet.
>
> Robert
>
I read recently that there is a movement to make McDonalds responsible
for wages and labor compliance issues for all stores, including
franchisees. Seems wrong to me.
On 6/21/2017 8:52 AM, Leon wrote:
>> I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
>> material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
>> them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
>> board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
>> jobs. Total about 15 employees.
>>
>>
>
> I signed the checks for a business but even then it was not the same as
> signing checks for my own small business. When it is your money you think
> a bit longer and harder about signing that check.
>
Authorizing the check to be written directly affected my bonus and
profit sharing. I'd agree in a mega-corporation, not the case here.
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 21:20:41 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 6/15/17 6:42 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:05:31 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/15/17 11:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:36:32 -0700 (PDT),
>>>> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works
>>>>>> differently. An example, some years go I was a supervisor
>>>>>> and had a guy working for me that ran a tubing bending
>>>>>> machine. He often took a walk to the storeroom, took the
>>>>>> extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a screw off
>>>>>> and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>>>>>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to
>>>>>> 100% more at the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to
>>>>>> his machine, his output dropped to the same as everyone
>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Revenge was his.
>>>>>
>>>>> You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt
>>>>> hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no
>>>>> longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT,
>>>>> work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept
>>>>> the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as
>>>>> all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with
>>>>> a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same
>>>>> rules as everyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is
>>>>> taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you
>>>>> pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the
>>>>> building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets
>>>>> away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a
>>>>> pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board
>>>>> and complains that the manager has special pets that get
>>>>> special treatment. Employer is fined, his unemployment payroll
>>>>> factor is increased, and the whiny employee gets unemployment
>>>>> based on discrimination.
>>>>>
>>>>> As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad
>>>>> employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same
>>>>> set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows
>>>>> favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on
>>>>> your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw
>>>>> the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T
>>>>> shirts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used
>>>>> my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and
>>>>> tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their
>>>>> reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting
>>>>> in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop
>>>>> and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the
>>>>> weekends to start a consulting business for prospective
>>>>> remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and
>>>>> cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me
>>>>> get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that
>>>>> to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were
>>>>> more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY,
>>>>> they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
>>>>>
>>>>> I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took
>>>>> a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one
>>>>> of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company.
>>>>> Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and
>>>>> forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how
>>>>> dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they
>>>>> are home") and on an on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a look:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>>>>>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your
>>>>> intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left.
>>>>> That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt
>>>>> you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get
>>>>> to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands
>>>>> without permission, made personal calls at work, went home
>>>>> early after a training conference instead of going back to work
>>>>> for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a
>>>>> stellar employee, but never?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all
>>>>> subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them
>>>>> more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time.
>>>>> Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they
>>>>> are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job
>>>>> or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price
>>>>> per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it
>>>>> takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they
>>>>> finish early.
>>>>>
>>>>> I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as
>>>>> well. I keep an account at a bank I don't like simply because
>>>>> they have a lot of locations and they don't charge my guys to
>>>>> cash a check. If there is a problem with ID, then the bank
>>>>> will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
>>>>>
>>>>> With them managing their own time, their wives become their
>>>>> managers. They are called constantly by nagging wives that
>>>>> want to know when they will finish and when they will be home.
>>>>> Much better than me hammering on them to stay in the game.
>>>>> They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finished,
>>>>> they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they
>>>>> don't finish, they don't get money and then they face an
>>>>> unhappy evening.
>>>>>
>>>>> So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of
>>>>> themselves. But I still put a little extra in the job knowing
>>>>> they will take a few saw blades, nails, and be sloppy with the
>>>>> use of my tools and hard on them to boot. Occasionally they
>>>>> steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
>>>>>
>>>>> I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I
>>>>> was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It
>>>>> helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about
>>>>> personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that
>>>>> would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes
>>>>> late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head
>>>>> that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather
>>>>> justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> You must be a fun guy to work for.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, what a real SOB. Doesn't want his employees stealing from
>>> him. Wants them working while he's paying them. He's such a jerk.
>>
>> Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
>> who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
>> piss. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.
>>
>
>He's not assuming anything.
Wrong. He stated that they *are*. They all are.
>He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
>Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
>paycheck.
But if I'm treated like a dog, I'll find another master. ...as will
everyone else.
>What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
>singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.
They do. Constantly. FOrced overtime. Vacations canceled. Vacation
time lost. It happens.
You sound like a moron.
On 6/16/17 7:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 21:20:41 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/15/17 6:42 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:05:31 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/15/17 11:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:36:32 -0700 (PDT),
>>>>> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works
>>>>>>> differently. An example, some years go I was a supervisor
>>>>>>> and had a guy working for me that ran a tubing bending
>>>>>>> machine. He often took a walk to the storeroom, took the
>>>>>>> extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a screw off
>>>>>>> and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>>>>>>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to
>>>>>>> 100% more at the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to
>>>>>>> his machine, his output dropped to the same as everyone
>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Revenge was his.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt
>>>>>> hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no
>>>>>> longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT,
>>>>>> work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept
>>>>>> the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as
>>>>>> all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with
>>>>>> a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same
>>>>>> rules as everyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is
>>>>>> taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you
>>>>>> pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the
>>>>>> building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets
>>>>>> away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a
>>>>>> pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board
>>>>>> and complains that the manager has special pets that get
>>>>>> special treatment. Employer is fined, his unemployment payroll
>>>>>> factor is increased, and the whiny employee gets unemployment
>>>>>> based on discrimination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad
>>>>>> employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same
>>>>>> set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows
>>>>>> favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on
>>>>>> your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw
>>>>>> the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T
>>>>>> shirts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used
>>>>>> my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and
>>>>>> tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their
>>>>>> reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting
>>>>>> in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop
>>>>>> and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the
>>>>>> weekends to start a consulting business for prospective
>>>>>> remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and
>>>>>> cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me
>>>>>> get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that
>>>>>> to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were
>>>>>> more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY,
>>>>>> they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took
>>>>>> a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one
>>>>>> of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company.
>>>>>> Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and
>>>>>> forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how
>>>>>> dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they
>>>>>> are home") and on an on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a look:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>>>>>>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your
>>>>>> intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left.
>>>>>> That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt
>>>>>> you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get
>>>>>> to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands
>>>>>> without permission, made personal calls at work, went home
>>>>>> early after a training conference instead of going back to work
>>>>>> for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a
>>>>>> stellar employee, but never?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all
>>>>>> subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them
>>>>>> more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time.
>>>>>> Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they
>>>>>> are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job
>>>>>> or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price
>>>>>> per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it
>>>>>> takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they
>>>>>> finish early.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as
>>>>>> well. I keep an account at a bank I don't like simply because
>>>>>> they have a lot of locations and they don't charge my guys to
>>>>>> cash a check. If there is a problem with ID, then the bank
>>>>>> will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With them managing their own time, their wives become their
>>>>>> managers. They are called constantly by nagging wives that
>>>>>> want to know when they will finish and when they will be home.
>>>>>> Much better than me hammering on them to stay in the game.
>>>>>> They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finished,
>>>>>> they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they
>>>>>> don't finish, they don't get money and then they face an
>>>>>> unhappy evening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of
>>>>>> themselves. But I still put a little extra in the job knowing
>>>>>> they will take a few saw blades, nails, and be sloppy with the
>>>>>> use of my tools and hard on them to boot. Occasionally they
>>>>>> steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I
>>>>>> was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It
>>>>>> helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about
>>>>>> personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that
>>>>>> would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes
>>>>>> late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head
>>>>>> that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather
>>>>>> justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> You must be a fun guy to work for.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, what a real SOB. Doesn't want his employees stealing from
>>>> him. Wants them working while he's paying them. He's such a jerk.
>>>
>>> Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
>>> who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
>>> piss. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.
>>>
>>
>> He's not assuming anything.
>
> Wrong. He stated that they *are*. They all are.
>
>> He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
>> Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
>> paycheck.
>
> But if I'm treated like a dog, I'll find another master. ...as will
> everyone else.
>
>> What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
>> singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.
>
> They do. Constantly. FOrced overtime. Vacations canceled. Vacation
> time lost. It happens.
>
> You sound like a moron.
>
Here you go again arguing for the sake of arguing.
Some times you have great input an information and other times you just
argue for the sake of arguing with nothing of value to contribute.
Bi-polar. Seek help. There is medication available.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 6/15/17 11:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:36:32 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
>>> example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
>>> that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
>>> storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
>>> screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
>>> the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
>>> dropped to the same as everyone else.
>>>
>>> Revenge was his.
>>
>> You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT, work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same rules as everyone else.
>>
>> I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board and complains that the manager has special pets that get special treatment. Employer is fined, his unemployment payroll factor is increased, and the whiny employee gets unemployment based on discrimination.
>>
>> As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>>
>> Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T shirts.
>>
>> I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the weekends to start a consulting business for prospective remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY, they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
>>
>> I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company. Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they are home") and on an on.
>>
>> Take a look:
>>
>> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>>
>>
>>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>>
>> But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left. That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>>
>> Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands without permission, made personal calls at work, went home early after a training conference instead of going back to work for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a stellar employee, but never?
>>
>> I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time. Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they finish early.
>>
>> I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as well. I keep an account at a bank I don't like simply because they have a lot of locations and they don't charge my guys to cash a check. If there is a problem with ID, then the bank will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
>>
>> With them managing their own time, their wives become their managers. They are called constantly by nagging wives that want to know when they will finish and when they will be home. Much better than me hammering on them to stay in the game. They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finished, they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they don't finish, they don't get money and then they face an unhappy evening.
>>
>> So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of themselves. But I still put a little extra in the job knowing they will take a few saw blades, nails, and be sloppy with the use of my tools and hard on them to boot. Occasionally they steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
>>
>> I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>>
>> Robert
>
> You must be a fun guy to work for.
>
Yeah, what a real SOB.
Doesn't want his employees stealing from him.
Wants them working while he's paying them.
He's such a jerk.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 6/15/17 12:44 PM, Casper wrote:
>> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> was heard to mutter:
>> Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got the stackable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have the 3 box/cart kit as you described for $99. So far, so good.
>
> Are these the ones you are talking about?
> https://smile.amazon.com/RIDGID-Professional-Storage-Organizer-Combination/dp/B0174NP7JE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1497548584&sr=1-1&keywords=ridgid+tool+box
>
>
Yessir! They are $99 for the set of 3 at HD and online.
HD ships to store for free in not in stock.
Ship to home is probably still cheaper than Amazon.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 6/15/17 6:42 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:05:31 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/15/17 11:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:36:32 -0700 (PDT),
>>> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works
>>>>> differently. An example, some years go I was a supervisor
>>>>> and had a guy working for me that ran a tubing bending
>>>>> machine. He often took a walk to the storeroom, took the
>>>>> extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a screw off
>>>>> and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>>>>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to
>>>>> 100% more at the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to
>>>>> his machine, his output dropped to the same as everyone
>>>>> else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Revenge was his.
>>>>
>>>> You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt
>>>> hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no
>>>> longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT,
>>>> work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept
>>>> the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as
>>>> all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with
>>>> a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same
>>>> rules as everyone else.
>>>>
>>>> I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is
>>>> taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you
>>>> pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the
>>>> building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets
>>>> away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a
>>>> pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board
>>>> and complains that the manager has special pets that get
>>>> special treatment. Employer is fined, his unemployment payroll
>>>> factor is increased, and the whiny employee gets unemployment
>>>> based on discrimination.
>>>>
>>>> As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad
>>>> employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same
>>>> set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows
>>>> favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on
>>>> your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw
>>>> the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>>>>
>>>> Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T
>>>> shirts.
>>>>
>>>> I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used
>>>> my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and
>>>> tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their
>>>> reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting
>>>> in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop
>>>> and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the
>>>> weekends to start a consulting business for prospective
>>>> remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and
>>>> cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me
>>>> get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that
>>>> to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were
>>>> more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY,
>>>> they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
>>>>
>>>> I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took
>>>> a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one
>>>> of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company.
>>>> Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and
>>>> forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how
>>>> dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they
>>>> are home") and on an on.
>>>>
>>>> Take a look:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>>>>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>>>>
>>>> But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your
>>>> intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left.
>>>> That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt
>>>> you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get
>>>> to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>>>>
>>>> Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands
>>>> without permission, made personal calls at work, went home
>>>> early after a training conference instead of going back to work
>>>> for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a
>>>> stellar employee, but never?
>>>>
>>>> I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all
>>>> subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them
>>>> more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time.
>>>> Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they
>>>> are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job
>>>> or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price
>>>> per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it
>>>> takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they
>>>> finish early.
>>>>
>>>> I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as
>>>> well. I keep an account at a bank I don't like simply because
>>>> they have a lot of locations and they don't charge my guys to
>>>> cash a check. If there is a problem with ID, then the bank
>>>> will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
>>>>
>>>> With them managing their own time, their wives become their
>>>> managers. They are called constantly by nagging wives that
>>>> want to know when they will finish and when they will be home.
>>>> Much better than me hammering on them to stay in the game.
>>>> They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finished,
>>>> they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they
>>>> don't finish, they don't get money and then they face an
>>>> unhappy evening.
>>>>
>>>> So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of
>>>> themselves. But I still put a little extra in the job knowing
>>>> they will take a few saw blades, nails, and be sloppy with the
>>>> use of my tools and hard on them to boot. Occasionally they
>>>> steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
>>>>
>>>> I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I
>>>> was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It
>>>> helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about
>>>> personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that
>>>> would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes
>>>> late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head
>>>> that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather
>>>> justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>
>>> You must be a fun guy to work for.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, what a real SOB. Doesn't want his employees stealing from
>> him. Wants them working while he's paying them. He's such a jerk.
>
> Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
> who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
> piss. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.
>
He's not assuming anything.
He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
paycheck.
What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 6/16/17 10:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take
>>>> an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company
>>>> time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off
>>>> early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band
>>>> recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did
>>>> you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you
>>>> say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's
>>>> go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever
>> take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment
>> bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference
>> was over early?
>>>
>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently.
>>> An example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy
>>> working for me that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took
>>> a walk to the storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My
>>> boss thought he was a screw off and confined him to his machine;
>>> no more trips to the storeroom for supplies. Before that, he
>>> turned out 50% to 100% more at the end of the day than anyone
>>> else. Tied to his machine, his output dropped to the same as
>>> everyone else.
>
>>> I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a
>>> goof off but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people
>>> do screw you on time, but what counts is what is done at the end
>>> of the day.
>>>
>>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm
>>> leaving early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>>
>> <https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-rule-of-52-and-17-its-random-but-it-
>>
>>
ups-your-productivity>
>>
> Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day.
> It is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check
> down at the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of
> breaks make more widgets per day than the ones that never leave their
> work station.
>
> Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.
When you filter out all the extraneous opinion, personal ideology, and
bias based on negative experiences, you're BOTH right.
I think it's very clear that Robert isn't painting with a broad brush.
Setting aside those that outright steal physical items, he's talking
about slackers and workers who try to get as much as they can for as
little as possible. We've all seen these people and anyone who's worked
in any kind of civil service knows this type very well. These are not
the type of people referred to in that article.
I'm guessing Robert has employed quite of few of those 52/17 types.
Those are the type of employees you attract by paying more. Even though
the type of work in this article is completely different from
construction (which I can personally attest to), those differences are
mostly irrelevant to this discussion.
It's about attitude and work ethic. This is why the whole $15 minimum
wage thing is such a joke. The people asking for it are too stupid to
realize that if their employee starts paying $15/hr., most of them will
be out of a job because the higher pay will attract workers with better
attitudes and work ethic.
If some guy busting his ass all day working landscaping in the brutal
heat figures out he can go work a cash register in air conditioning for
the same or better money, that's one replaced fast food worker who
likely doesn't have the kind of attitude nor work ethic it takes to bust
your butt doing landscaping.
But that's a tangent and we never go off on tangents in here. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 6/16/17 12:09 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> My model employee is this guy, and I have a few (not a lot!): We
> start at 8, so he shows up 10 minutes early, says his hellos to the
> guys, and gets his tools out and goes to work at8 or shortly after.
> Works independently, and I know if he is stopped he is just taking a
> breath or getting some water or Gatorade. Stop time about 10
> minutes, usually around mid morning. Stops for lunch, repeats the
> morning schedule. If not working with them, I will bring them
> something cold to drink in the afternoon and get a handle on progress
> and any material needs. Repeat the next day.
I have a helper like that who I unfortunately lost to a full time gig.
He's ready and raring to go. If there's a lull in activity, he's
looking for something else to do. If we show up to a project site and
I'm speaking with the client, he's not standing around waiting for
orders, he just starts unloading or unraveling extension cords, etc.
He's always looking ahead to what can be done when the current task is
finished.
He's the kind of guy I buy lunches for and he actually told me I had to
I had to stop doing it. He's the kind of guy I "round up" for when it
comes time to pay. He's actually told me on a couple occasions that I
paid him too much. I think he just knows, now, that I like to tip. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 6/13/2017 10:26 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
>>>> professional thief.
>>>
>>> Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?
>>
>> From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml
>>
>> "THE USE, VALUE AND THEFT OF 18TH-CENTURY GARDEN TOOLS
>> When Shovels and Dung Forks Were Among Life's Most Important Possessions"
>>
>> Peoples' livelihoods directly depended on their garden tools. And the value
>> of those tools also made them a common target for thieves, as illustrated
>> by advertisements in the Pennsylvania Gazette.
>>
>> Stolen hoes
>>
>> In 1763, for example, Adam Reed of Lancaster County accompanied his local
>> constable to a spot where they found Mr. Reed's stolen property "hid in
>> the ground." Among the purloined articles unearthed were four grubbing
>> hoes, four shovels and two spades.
>>
>> In another case, during the Revolutionary War, John Jones of Southwark
>> left personal tools in the care of one Captain Christian Grover "at the
>> time of the approach of the enemy" to Philadelphia. In 1778 Mr. Jones
>> advertised for the return of his property, promising that whoever returned
>> his belongings would be "rewarded in proportion to their trouble or expense."
>> Among his prized possessions were two spades, five garden hoes, one grubbing
>> hoe and two dung forks."
>>
>
>
>As long as there has been some kind of law enforcement, there has been
>crime.
Crime is independent of law enforcement. One must consider that at
the time (1763), hoes, spades, shovels, pitchforks were all hand-made
one-at-a-time. Which made them valuable and relatively rare items.
>
>On another note, Stolen hoes. LOL What's a pimp to do?
>
>I was watching the Family Feud and Steve Harvey ask the question, What
>is the farmers wife jealous of? After a some thought the contestant
>answered, her husbands hoe? Steve lost it.
And if you think that answer was spontaneous, well ...
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:05:31 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 6/15/17 11:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:36:32 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
>>>> example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
>>>> that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
>>>> storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
>>>> screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
>>>> storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
>>>> the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
>>>> dropped to the same as everyone else.
>>>>
>>>> Revenge was his.
>>>
>>> You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT, work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same rules as everyone else.
>>>
>>> I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you pissed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets away with it every day". Or the manager is fired because a pissed off employee goes to management or the State labor board and complains that the manager has special pets that get special treatment. Employer is fined, his unemployment payroll factor is increased, and the whiny employee gets unemployment based on discrimination.
>>>
>>> As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.
>>>
>>> Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T shirts.
>>>
>>> I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the weekends to start a consulting business for prospective remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY, they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.
>>>
>>> I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company. Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they are home") and on an on.
>>>
>>> Take a look:
>>>
>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+time+does+an+employee+text+a+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>>>
>>>
>>>> As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
>>>> early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
>>>
>>> But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left. That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get to that position. Nope, not the same thing.
>>>
>>> Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands without permission, made personal calls at work, went home early after a training conference instead of going back to work for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a stellar employee, but never?
>>>
>>> I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time. Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they finish early.
>>>
>>> I pay them when they are finished, and in some cases draws as well. I keep an account at a bank I don't like simply because they have a lot of locations and they don't charge my guys to cash a check. If there is a problem with ID, then the bank will call my cell and I authorize the payment.
>>>
>>> With them managing their own time, their wives become their managers. They are called constantly by nagging wives that want to know when they will finish and when they will be home. Much better than me hammering on them to stay in the game. They know if I pay them on the spot when they are finished, they can go home to their wives with money in hand. If they don't finish, they don't get money and then they face an unhappy evening.
>>>
>>> So my workers feel more empowered and more in control of themselves. But I still put a little extra in the job knowing they will take a few saw blades, nails, and be sloppy with the use of my tools and hard on them to boot. Occasionally they steal big stuff, but not nearly like employees.
>>>
>>> I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> You must be a fun guy to work for.
>>
>
>Yeah, what a real SOB.
>Doesn't want his employees stealing from him.
>Wants them working while he's paying them.
>He's such a jerk.
Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a piss.
The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.
>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> was heard to mutter:
>Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got the stackable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have the 3 box/cart kit as you described for $99. So far, so good.
Are these the ones you are talking about?
https://smile.amazon.com/RIDGID-Professional-Storage-Organizer-Combination/dp/B0174NP7JE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1497548584&sr=1-1&keywords=ridgid+tool+box
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