Totally OT

On Thu, 17 May 2012 07:29:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.
>Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants, oh
>MY! Loud music, POT etc.

Well, in this case the answer is easy, at least for me. I don't have
much hair anymore, bell bottom jeans don't come in my size, my hips
are eclipsed by my stomach, loud music hurts my ears and I can't
afford pot anymore.

See? There are some advantages to getting older.

On 5/16/2012 5:52 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 02:25:54 +0000 (UTC),
>> Yeah, today's kids are a real mess. I sure am glad that I was a teenager
>> in the 60s and 70s. We didn't have any on& off stage nudity, drug use,
>> sex, or other inappropriate behaviour at rock shows back in those days,
>> did we?
>
> Either your memory is going from old age or you were a protected
> child. The 60s and 70s were my teenage years and nudity and drug use
> were the order of the day.

Yeah but we were trying to be grown up. Today's with no structure the
kids,"trak Bieber for example" are reverting to infantilism. He looks
just like out son during patty training.

On Tue, 15 May 2012 07:44:27 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>What happens when schools stop teaching music.
>
>What happens when you let them do this to express their individuality.
>
>What happens when you don't discipline your kids.
>
>What happens when kids have more money than their parents.
>
>
>
>Yes, this is Justin Berber. White boy gone wrong and having no pride in
>himself.
>
>http://music.yahoo.com/photos/wango-tango-2012-slideshow/a-photo-1337025812.html


What an interesting group of people. Glad I'm of a different
generation.

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 5/17/2012 11:02 AM, CW wrote:
>
>
>
>
> But we as kids probably had more guidance and less free will than todays
> kids. I pretty much accept trends today however I draw the line where a
> kid can't keep his pants up and his whole butt crack shows.
>
> I wonder what kind of pressure causes one to want to wear his pants
> below his butt?
> ============================================================================
>
> Practicing to be a plumber.
> ==========================================================================
>
>
> Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.
> Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants, oh
> MY! Loud music, POT etc.
> ========================================================
> Worn your platform shoes lately ? How about your tie dyed shirt? Some
> things (thankfully) go away.
>
>

Women's platform shoes are quite common these days and have been for
some time. Tie dye, I see that almost daily.
========================================================================
You know that I wasn't talking about women's shoes.

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:54:39 -0500, Swingman wrote:
>
>> This country is sick, terminally so ... there is no longer a moral
>> component ... it's a game the system business model, get what you can
>> and fuck the consequences, brought to you by a Senator sponsored by
>> Pfizer, a Congressman sponsored by Monsanto, and a legal system
>> providing guidance in the business model.
>
> Amen! Although I wouldn't limit it to the US. Seems to me we've done
> quite well exporting our business model, although some countries have
> had that model longer than we have.

So... I guess we didn't really export it then, did we?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

> How many years apart was that. I remember working for $1.25 an hour
> too. Don't recall getting anything at Confirmation.
------------------------------
Talk about dating one's self.

The minimum wage was $0.50/hr when I started working.

Was still only earning $2.00/hr my last year in college.

Lew

"Leon" wrote:


> The extreme spending example shows they are taking a cue from their
> parents.
>
> Parents want to have what the Jones have whether they can afford it
> or not, see that as in debt up to their eye balls. The kids see the
> Jones kids and want what they want so the parents go in debt further
> to keep up the image. And unfortunately mom and dad both have to
> work and who raises the kids.
>
> I truly believe that our society would be better off if we went back
> to one parent working and one being home for the kids. We need to
> be judged more for how our kids turn out than our accumulation of
> "stuff" that we do not really need.
-----------------------------------
Yep.

As I learned at a very early age, waste not, want not.

Simplifying your life is reducing the number of keys on your key ring.

If you are a sailor, you have arrived when you have only a single key
for the boat on your key ring.


Lew

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 5/16/2012 5:52 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 02:25:54 +0000 (UTC),
>> Yeah, today's kids are a real mess. I sure am glad that I was a teenager
>> in the 60s and 70s. We didn't have any on& off stage nudity, drug use,
>> sex, or other inappropriate behaviour at rock shows back in those days,
>> did we?
>
> Either your memory is going from old age or you were a protected
> child. The 60s and 70s were my teenage years and nudity and drug use
> were the order of the day.

Yeah but we were trying to be grown up. Today's with no structure the
kids,"trak Bieber for example" are reverting to infantilism. He looks
just like out son during patty training.
=========================================================================
Yep, with the earrings, tattoos, long hair, ripped jeans, pot, acid, rock
music ect. Yes, we were trying to be upstanding responsible adults, just
like our parents.

On 5/16/2012 10:48 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 06:55:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Yeah but we were trying to be grown up. Today's with no structure the
>> kids,"trak Bieber for example" are reverting to infantilism. He looks
>> just like out son during patty training.
>
> Yeah, but we're old guys. We really have very little understanding of
> the kind of pressures and difficulties kids go through these days. All
> we have is our knowledge that we got through it. What makes sense to
> us these days wouldn't mean much to us if we were sixteen again.



But we as kids probably had more guidance and less free will than todays
kids. I pretty much accept trends today however I draw the line where a
kid can't keep his pants up and his whole butt crack shows.

I wonder what kind of pressure causes one to want to wear his pants
below his butt?

Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.

Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants, oh
MY! Loud music, POT etc.

I can't really can't see an adult employee coming to work with his pants
hanging down around his knees.

On May 15, 7:44=A0am, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> What happens when schools stop teaching music.
>
> What happens when you let them do this to express their individuality.
>
> What happens when you don't discipline your kids.
>
> What happens when kids have more money than their parents.
>
> Yes, this is Justin Berber. =A0White boy gone wrong and having no pride i=
n
> himself.
>
> http://music.yahoo.com/photos/wango-tango-2012-slideshow/a-photo-1337...

Yeah - another one who has jumped on the "gay wagon" to draw attention
to himself at any cost.

I'm still hanging on to hope that Taylor Swift will remain as well
grounded as she seems to be.

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 5/15/2012 4:55 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> What happens when schools stop teaching music.
>
> We had about 2 hours of music instruction in 8 years of Catholic grade
> school. PBS and WQXR taught me a lot more. I have 2 family members with
> taste in music and they gave me a start.
>
> When I was 11, I liked jazz and my friends liked KISS. I couldn't
> understand why they didn't want to listen to music. It's my opinion now
> that most people never really listen to music. Not really listen.
>
> But to your question, I don't think school can really make a difference.
> Most people are born with no taste, but instead with a predisposition to
> follow a herd. The most you can do is act as a shepherd to the herd, and
> too many modern parents don't do that. It takes solidarity among adults.

I grew up with music being a part of school every year that I went to
school. I believe that it certainly does make a difference, as now a
majority of the kids have turned to cRAP. If you are not influnced with
the good stuff you learn the bad stuff.




>
>
>> What happens when you let them do this to express their individuality.
>>
>> What happens when you don't discipline your kids.
>
> I don't think Beiber has a real sense of individuality. He emulates
> rappers
> because he thinks that's the right herd to follow.

IIRC he has only recently turned down that path along with his potty
training pants. He has been successful enough to retire but his
audience is ignorant as to what decent music really is. The cRappers
are teaching the kids now.


>
> Lots of famous or infamous (Lewinsky) kids appear to have parents with no
> leadership skills at all.

Talent down the drain.

>
>
>> What happens when kids have more money than their parents.
>
> The excess money is detrimental, but it's not catastrophic. They can have
> discipline at the same time.
>
> When I was 5, I got $5 in the Christmas card from my grandmother. Now
> they
> get $100 at a time. I probably got $25 at Confirmation. I know a girl
> who
> just got $1100 at her Confirmation.
>
> The result of this is that kids don't learn the value of money, but they
> can
> have discipline in other ways at the same time. My sister's son sometimes
> had more liquid cash than his parents. They took loans from him - with
> interest. But he wasn't given the kind of license the kids in those
> pictures get.

The numbers that you are talking about here are irrelevant. Those that
are influencing our kids know little to nothing about music and because
they do have some talent, although misguided, are making a killing. I
guarantee you that if our society brought music back to all of the
schools the RAP cRAP would all but disappear.
===================================================================
I'm having a hard time reading this without laughing.

On 5/16/2012 10:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 13:39:29 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2012 12:09 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

>
> What sucks is that today's kids think they absolutely _must_ own a
> brand new vehicle with ten grand of bling on it, $400 tennies,
> designer sunglasses and jeans, a state-of-the-art laptop computer,
> 4,000 new computer games, and a grand a week drug/woman habit.


The extreme spending example shows they are taking a cue from their parents.

Parents want to have what the Jones have whether they can afford it or
not, see that as in debt up to their eye balls. The kids see the Jones
kids and want what they want so the parents go in debt further to keep
up the image. And unfortunately mom and dad both have to work and who
raises the kids.

I truly believe that our society would be better off if we went back to
one parent working and one being home for the kids. We need to be
judged more for how our kids turn out than our accumulation of "stuff"
that we do not really need.

It is easy to fall into that trap. My wife and I both worked and we had
our son in day care and private school through second grade. We owned
three vehicle, owed on two of them, and a house.

At 40 I retired, and sent our son to a public school. Oddly enough
within 2 years of retiring we were debt free and I stayed at home while
I began my small woodworking business at home. I am not sure how my son
would have turned out had I continued to work and we had kept him in
private schools.

BUT living within your means teaches your kids something. Our son
continued to do well in public schools and he never needed to have the
expensive bling. He learned how to save and did quite well in college
earning his masters degree shortly before his 23rd birthday and had no
college debt, he contributed about half towards his college education. A
year later he was awarded his CPA license and had a good job waiting for
him when he finished college. He currently owns his own home and is on
schedule to have the mortgage paid off at the end of next year. He paid
1/3 down payment on the house from money he earned while working and
going to school. Not too bad for a 24 year old.

On 5/17/2012 7:56 AM, Leon wrote:


> BUT living within your means teaches your kids something. Our son
> continued to do well in public schools and he never needed to have the
> expensive bling. He learned how to save and did quite well in college
> earning his masters degree shortly before his 23rd birthday and had no
> college debt, he contributed about half towards his college education. A
> year later he was awarded his CPA license and had a good job waiting for
> him when he finished college. He currently owns his own home and is on
> schedule to have the mortgage paid off at the end of next year. He paid
> 1/3 down payment on the house from money he earned while working and
> going to school. Not too bad for a 24 year old.

That is a tribute to parenting ... the highest tribute there is.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/17/2012 7:43 PM, CW wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 5/17/2012 11:02 AM, CW wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But we as kids probably had more guidance and less free will than todays
>> kids. I pretty much accept trends today however I draw the line where a
>> kid can't keep his pants up and his whole butt crack shows.
>>
>> I wonder what kind of pressure causes one to want to wear his pants
>> below his butt?
>> ============================================================================
>>
>>
>> Practicing to be a plumber.
>> ==========================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.
>> Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants, oh
>> MY! Loud music, POT etc.
>> ========================================================
>> Worn your platform shoes lately ? How about your tie dyed shirt? Some
>> things (thankfully) go away.
>>
>>
>
> Women's platform shoes are quite common these days and have been for
> some time. Tie dye, I see that almost daily.
> ========================================================================
> You know that I wasn't talking about women's shoes.

Do yours still fit? :~)

I would like to know what holds the pants at that level.

-----
"HeyBub" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Yep. Low pants is a consequence of the authorities confiscating an
accused's
belt when he's clinked-up.

Just shows you who some classes admire.


-------
m II wrote:
> The low pants wearing is a sign of submission to the authorities!
>
> This demonstrates that in the event of a crime they are incapable of
> running from the scene.
>

m II wrote:
> The low pants wearing is a sign of submission to the authorities!
>
> This demonstrates that in the event of a crime they are incapable of
> running from the scene.
>

Yep. Low pants is a consequence of the authorities confiscating an accused's
belt when he's clinked-up.

Just shows you who some classes admire.

The low pants wearing is a sign of submission to the authorities!

This demonstrates that in the event of a crime they are incapable of
running from the scene.

-----------------------

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
But we as kids probably had more guidance and less free will than
todays
kids. I pretty much accept trends today however I draw the line where
a
kid can't keep his pants up and his whole butt crack shows.

I wonder what kind of pressure causes one to want to wear his pants
below his butt?

Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.

Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants,
oh
MY! Loud music, POT etc.

I can't really can't see an adult employee coming to work with his
pants
hanging down around his knees.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Larry Jaques wrote:
> >
> > 'Twas, wasn't it? I'd like to know how many of these kids who
> > graduate actually take up the career associated with their college
> > classes.
>
> Heh!
>
> I saw an interview a few months back with an "Occupy" protester. He had
> spiked hair and a dangling ear-ring. He was also carrying a sign with some
> unintelligible slogan. Anyway, he virtually shouted to the interviewer: "I
> graduated from college three months ago and I can't even get an interview
> for a job..."
>
> "What was your college major?" the interviewer innocently asked.
>
> "I don't see how that's relevant!" retorted the hippie.

If his college major is an issue at this point he isn't a hippie. Any
hippie today has a long employment history or is retired.

Spiked hair, dangly earring, and "I don't see how that's relevant" is
punk.

On 5/16/2012 12:27 AM, CW wrote:

> ===================================================================
> I'm having a hard time reading this without laughing.


So am I ... seeing how my Dad threw my sister's Elvis records into the
front yard saying: "You call that crap MUSIC??"

(and our each member of family of seven played one or more instruments)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/21/2012 5:40 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 'Twas, wasn't it? I'd like to know how many of these kids who
>>>> graduate actually take up the career associated with their college
>>>> classes.
>>>
>>> Heh!
>>>
>>> I saw an interview a few months back with an "Occupy" protester. He
>>> had spiked hair and a dangling ear-ring. He was also carrying a sign
>>> with some unintelligible slogan. Anyway, he virtually shouted to the
>>> interviewer: "I graduated from college three months ago and I can't
>>> even get an interview for a job..."
>>>
>>> "What was your college major?" the interviewer innocently asked.
>>>
>>> "I don't see how that's relevant!" retorted the hippie.
>>
>> If his college major is an issue at this point he isn't a hippie. Any
>> hippie today has a long employment history or is retired.
>>
>> Spiked hair, dangly earring, and "I don't see how that's relevant" is
>> punk.
>
> Oh.
>
> I came of age in the generation that came after beatniks and before hippies.
> I'm totally lost on the appropriate moniker.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
Beatniks, early 60's, hippies late 60's. give or take a couple of years
on both.

That defaulted back to the Elvis age. ;~) Or was that the "MOD" age.

On 5/17/2012 8:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/17/2012 7:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>> BUT living within your means teaches your kids something. Our son
>> continued to do well in public schools and he never needed to have the
>> expensive bling. He learned how to save and did quite well in college
>> earning his masters degree shortly before his 23rd birthday and had no
>> college debt, he contributed about half towards his college education. A
>> year later he was awarded his CPA license and had a good job waiting for
>> him when he finished college. He currently owns his own home and is on
>> schedule to have the mortgage paid off at the end of next year. He paid
>> 1/3 down payment on the house from money he earned while working and
>> going to school. Not too bad for a 24 year old.
>
> That is a tribute to parenting ... the highest tribute there is.
>

Parenting yes. Good parenting, maybe. Most kids are getting no
parenting, so to speak.

Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> 'Twas, wasn't it? I'd like to know how many of these kids who
> graduate actually take up the career associated with their college
> classes.

Heh!

I saw an interview a few months back with an "Occupy" protester. He had
spiked hair and a dangling ear-ring. He was also carrying a sign with some
unintelligible slogan. Anyway, he virtually shouted to the interviewer: "I
graduated from college three months ago and I can't even get an interview
for a job..."

"What was your college major?" the interviewer innocently asked.

"I don't see how that's relevant!" retorted the hippie.

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 5/17/2012 7:43 PM, CW wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 5/17/2012 11:02 AM, CW wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But we as kids probably had more guidance and less free will than todays
>> kids. I pretty much accept trends today however I draw the line where a
>> kid can't keep his pants up and his whole butt crack shows.
>>
>> I wonder what kind of pressure causes one to want to wear his pants
>> below his butt?
>> ============================================================================
>>
>>
>> Practicing to be a plumber.
>> ==========================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.
>> Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants, oh
>> MY! Loud music, POT etc.
>> ========================================================
>> Worn your platform shoes lately ? How about your tie dyed shirt? Some
>> things (thankfully) go away.
>>
>>
>
> Women's platform shoes are quite common these days and have been for
> some time. Tie dye, I see that almost daily.
> ========================================================================
> You know that I wasn't talking about women's shoes.

Do yours still fit? :~)
=============================================================================
Never owned any. thought they were gay.

On 5/15/2012 4:55 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> What happens when schools stop teaching music.
>
> We had about 2 hours of music instruction in 8 years of Catholic grade
> school. PBS and WQXR taught me a lot more. I have 2 family members with
> taste in music and they gave me a start.
>
> When I was 11, I liked jazz and my friends liked KISS. I couldn't
> understand why they didn't want to listen to music. It's my opinion now
> that most people never really listen to music. Not really listen.
>
> But to your question, I don't think school can really make a difference.
> Most people are born with no taste, but instead with a predisposition to
> follow a herd. The most you can do is act as a shepherd to the herd, and
> too many modern parents don't do that. It takes solidarity among adults.

I grew up with music being a part of school every year that I went to
school. I believe that it certainly does make a difference, as now a
majority of the kids have turned to cRAP. If you are not influnced with
the good stuff you learn the bad stuff.




>
>
>> What happens when you let them do this to express their individuality.
>>
>> What happens when you don't discipline your kids.
>
> I don't think Beiber has a real sense of individuality. He emulates rappers
> because he thinks that's the right herd to follow.

IIRC he has only recently turned down that path along with his potty
training pants. He has been successful enough to retire but his
audience is ignorant as to what decent music really is. The cRappers
are teaching the kids now.


>
> Lots of famous or infamous (Lewinsky) kids appear to have parents with no
> leadership skills at all.

Talent down the drain.

>
>
>> What happens when kids have more money than their parents.
>
> The excess money is detrimental, but it's not catastrophic. They can have
> discipline at the same time.
>
> When I was 5, I got $5 in the Christmas card from my grandmother. Now they
> get $100 at a time. I probably got $25 at Confirmation. I know a girl who
> just got $1100 at her Confirmation.
>
> The result of this is that kids don't learn the value of money, but they can
> have discipline in other ways at the same time. My sister's son sometimes
> had more liquid cash than his parents. They took loans from him - with
> interest. But he wasn't given the kind of license the kids in those
> pictures get.

The numbers that you are talking about here are irrelevant. Those that
are influencing our kids know little to nothing about music and because
they do have some talent, although misguided, are making a killing. I
guarantee you that if our society brought music back to all of the
schools the RAP cRAP would all but disappear.





>
>
>> Yes, this is Justin Berber. White boy gone wrong and having no pride
>> in himself.
>>
>> http://music.yahoo.com/photos/wango-tango-2012-slideshow/a-photo-1337025812.html
>
>
>

On 5/17/2012 2:55 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>
>> The extreme spending example shows they are taking a cue from their
>> parents.
>>
>> Parents want to have what the Jones have whether they can afford it
>> or not, see that as in debt up to their eye balls. The kids see the
>> Jones kids and want what they want so the parents go in debt further
>> to keep up the image. And unfortunately mom and dad both have to
>> work and who raises the kids.
>>
>> I truly believe that our society would be better off if we went back
>> to one parent working and one being home for the kids. We need to
>> be judged more for how our kids turn out than our accumulation of
>> "stuff" that we do not really need.
> -----------------------------------
> Yep.
>
> As I learned at a very early age, waste not, want not.
>
> Simplifying your life is reducing the number of keys on your key ring.
>
> If you are a sailor, you have arrived when you have only a single key
> for the boat on your key ring.
>
>
> Lew
>
>

We agree! :~)

On 5/17/2012 11:02 AM, CW wrote:
>
>
>
>
> But we as kids probably had more guidance and less free will than todays
> kids. I pretty much accept trends today however I draw the line where a
> kid can't keep his pants up and his whole butt crack shows.
>
> I wonder what kind of pressure causes one to want to wear his pants
> below his butt?
> ============================================================================
>
> Practicing to be a plumber.
> ==========================================================================
>
>
> Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.
> Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants, oh
> MY! Loud music, POT etc.
> ========================================================
> Worn your platform shoes lately ? How about your tie dyed shirt? Some
> things (thankfully) go away.
>
>

Women's platform shoes are quite common these days and have been for
some time. Tie dye, I see that almost daily.

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 5/16/2012 12:09 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>>
>>> How many years apart was that. I remember working for $1.25 an hour
>>> too. Don't recall getting anything at Confirmation.
>> ------------------------------
>> Talk about dating one's self.
>>
>> The minimum wage was $0.50/hr when I started working.
>>
>> Was still only earning $2.00/hr my last year in college.
>
>
> Starting at 14, and all through jr and sr high school, I made .50/hour
> working at a nursery/landscape company after school and on weekends
> ... $4/day, seven days a week in the summer. From that, and besides
> buying my own clothes and shoes (and a $200, 1949 Willys Jeepster), I
> saved $1000 for my entire first year of college in 1962, which paid
> for tuition, books, room and board, laundry, and had $40 left to last
> the rest of my freshman year.
>
> I got a check for $8 from my parents in April of the second semester
> of that year, which I didn't even cash ... their first, last and total
> financial contribution to my higher education.
>
> Let's see a kid try that today ... then tell me we, as a culture,
> haven't been fucked to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think'
> of tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual
> "rights" to higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else
> pays.

My parents financed my college education. Tuition at the time was
equivalent to ~$125/year for the first 4 of my 6 years (63-69). Room,
board, books, fees etc were extra. If you were needy enough you could
get loans and/or grants easily enough, and there were/are fairly easy
college-level jobs for extras.

I have no idea what the real costs are nowadays, but this link says that
tuition is €1,771 per year (€1 =~ USD$1.30).
http://www.studeren.uva.nl/inschrijven/geldzaken.cfm
Note that nowadays there are fairly hefty fines if you stay on as a
student too long. The English version doesn't seem to mention costs on
the first page.

Yes, we had it easy ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Swingman wrote:
> > ... then tell me we, as a culture,
>> haven't been f*** to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
>> tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights"
>> to higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.
>>
>
> That's a a nicely stated summary.
>
> Bill

This country became great because of its systems of education, free or
otherwise. To throw away the potential of all or some of our current
young people is criminal (obviously my opinion, YMMV).

NOTE: Education costs money. Who should bear the costs - society or
each individual - is a moral question that everyone should weigh in on.
The more or less recent emphasis (since the 70's??) in the US on giving
everyone a college education, regardless of ability, is of course utter
nonsense. But, but, but everyone who shows potential should either pay
for such an education himself (genderless word!) or should get easy
financing of that education. EMPHASIS is on "shows potential", and
throw out the bums who don't work at it.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 5/16/2012 2:53 PM, Han wrote:
>> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>> > ... then tell me we, as a culture,
>>>> haven't been f*** to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think'
of
>>>> tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual
"rights"
>>>> to higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's a a nicely stated summary.
>>>
>>> Bill
>
>
>> NOTE: Education costs money. Who should bear the costs - society or
>> each individual - is a moral question that everyone should weigh in
on.
>> nonsense.
>
> It is as painfully obvious as the nose on your face that the jury
> already came back with that verdict:
>
> The availability of student loans is precisely what has led to the
> spiraling costs of higher education. More student loans will only
> guarantee higher costs because colleges and universities, with their
> corporatist attitude ("MBA think" again), will continue to line their
> pockets just like Wall Street has.
>
> Another shameful example of failure to fathom consequences.
>
> Between the government, banks, and the legal system it has become
> impossible to pay off students loans; these high interest rate
> non-forgivable loans, which the taxpayer will pay again when that
> inevitable bubble bursts ... and this one will be more on the order of
> an explosion.
>
> This country is sick, terminally so ... there is no longer a moral
> component ... it's a game the system business model, get what you can
> and fuck the consequences, brought to you by a Senator sponsored by
> Pfizer, a Congressman sponsored by Monsanto, and a legal system
> providing guidance in the business model.
>
> Look no further than this weeks infamous, upcoming IPO for the
> underlying idiocy of it all ...

LOL!!


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

I wonder what an old trailer is worth these days.

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 5/17/2012 8:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/17/2012 7:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>> BUT living within your means teaches your kids something. Our son
>> continued to do well in public schools and he never needed to have
>> the
>> expensive bling. He learned how to save and did quite well in
>> college
>> earning his masters degree shortly before his 23rd birthday and had
>> no
>> college debt, he contributed about half towards his college
>> education. A
>> year later he was awarded his CPA license and had a good job waiting
>> for
>> him when he finished college. He currently owns his own home and is
>> on
>> schedule to have the mortgage paid off at the end of next year. He
>> paid
>> 1/3 down payment on the house from money he earned while working and
>> going to school. Not too bad for a 24 year old.
>
> That is a tribute to parenting ... the highest tribute there is.
>

Parenting yes. Good parenting, maybe. Most kids are getting no
parenting, so to speak.

>> When I was 5, I got $5 in the Christmas card from my grandmother. Now
>> they
>> get $100 at a time. I probably got $25 at Confirmation. I know a girl
>> who
>> just got $1100 at her Confirmation.
>>
>> The result of this is that kids don't learn the value of money, but they
>> can
>> have discipline in other ways at the same time.

How many years apart was that. I remember working for $1.25 an hour
too. Don't recall getting anything at Confirmation.

On Wed, 16 May 2012 02:25:54 +0000 (UTC),
[email protected] (Larry W) wrote:

>Yeah, today's kids are a real mess. I sure am glad that I was a teenager
>in the 60s and 70s. We didn't have any on & off stage nudity, drug use,
>sex, or other inappropriate behaviour at rock shows back in those days,
>did we?

I dunno. I was too naked, stoned, drunk (and having sex) to care.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

>
> I'm still hanging on to hope that Taylor Swift will remain as well
> grounded as she seems to be.

She reminds me of a girlfriend I had when I was 17... The first time I
saw Taylor my heart went thump thump remembering old times.

I still get a little lift everytime I see her. Brings back good
memories, and fun times.

Leon wrote:
> What happens when schools stop teaching music.

We had about 2 hours of music instruction in 8 years of Catholic grade
school. PBS and WQXR taught me a lot more. I have 2 family members with
taste in music and they gave me a start.

When I was 11, I liked jazz and my friends liked KISS. I couldn't
understand why they didn't want to listen to music. It's my opinion now
that most people never really listen to music. Not really listen.

But to your question, I don't think school can really make a difference.
Most people are born with no taste, but instead with a predisposition to
follow a herd. The most you can do is act as a shepherd to the herd, and
too many modern parents don't do that. It takes solidarity among adults.


> What happens when you let them do this to express their individuality.
>
> What happens when you don't discipline your kids.

I don't think Beiber has a real sense of individuality. He emulates rappers
because he thinks that's the right herd to follow.

Lots of famous or infamous (Lewinsky) kids appear to have parents with no
leadership skills at all.


> What happens when kids have more money than their parents.

The excess money is detrimental, but it's not catastrophic. They can have
discipline at the same time.

When I was 5, I got $5 in the Christmas card from my grandmother. Now they
get $100 at a time. I probably got $25 at Confirmation. I know a girl who
just got $1100 at her Confirmation.

The result of this is that kids don't learn the value of money, but they can
have discipline in other ways at the same time. My sister's son sometimes
had more liquid cash than his parents. They took loans from him - with
interest. But he wasn't given the kind of license the kids in those
pictures get.


> Yes, this is Justin Berber. White boy gone wrong and having no pride
> in himself.
>
> http://music.yahoo.com/photos/wango-tango-2012-slideshow/a-photo-1337025812.html



--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

Yeah, today's kids are a real mess. I sure am glad that I was a teenager
in the 60s and 70s. We didn't have any on & off stage nudity, drug use,
sex, or other inappropriate behaviour at rock shows back in those days,
did we?


--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > > When I was 5, I got $5 in the Christmas card from my grandmother.
> > > Now they
> > > get $100 at a time. I probably got $25 at Confirmation. I know
> > > a girl who
> > > just got $1100 at her Confirmation.
> > >
> > > The result of this is that kids don't learn the value of money,
> > > but they can
> > > have discipline in other ways at the same time.
>
> How many years apart was that. I remember working for $1.25 an hour
> too. Don't recall getting anything at Confirmation.

Just 30 years. I hope you are not saying that inflation accounts for it.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

Swingman wrote:
> ... then tell me we, as a culture,
> haven't been f*** to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
> tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights" to
> higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.
>

That's a a nicely stated summary.

Bill

On 5/16/2012 2:39 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/16/2012 12:09 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>>
>>> How many years apart was that. I remember working for $1.25 an hour
>>> too. Don't recall getting anything at Confirmation.
>> ------------------------------
>> Talk about dating one's self.
>>
>> The minimum wage was $0.50/hr when I started working.
>>
>> Was still only earning $2.00/hr my last year in college.
>
>
> Starting at 14, and all through jr and sr high school, I made .50/hour
> working at a nursery/landscape company after school and on weekends ...
> $4/day, seven days a week in the summer. From that, and besides buying
> my own clothes and shoes (and a $200, 1949 Willys Jeepster), I saved
> $1000 for my entire first year of college in 1962, which paid for
> tuition, books, room and board, laundry, and had $40 left to last the
> rest of my freshman year.
>
> I got a check for $8 from my parents in April of the second semester of
> that year, which I didn't even cash ... their first, last and total
> financial contribution to my higher education.
>
> Let's see a kid try that today ... then tell me we, as a culture,
> haven't been fucked to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
> tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights" to
> higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.
>

I entered college in 1962, Tuition was about $500/quarter (year = 3
quarters) and I was working about 20 hr/wk at 1.25/hr. When I graduated
4 years later, tuition was $720/qt and I was working about 40 hr at
2.50/ hr. My wage rate started at the minimum wage, and ended above the
minimum wage, ie I got a raise when the government increased the minimum
wage.

I paid for all of my books, tuition, and other school expenses, and
bought and maintained a car to get to school and work. (I lived at home,
but had to have a car to get to school.) I also bought the majority of
my cloths and was also dating during college.
.
Based on the referenced website the 500 is now worth between 3000 and
12900, or for the 3 quarters (one year)9000 to 38700.

In 2011, the relative value my hourly rate of $1.50/hr in 1962 ranges
from $8.92 to $38.70.

Since the minimum wage is 7.25 today, I see no reason why a a motivated
student, could not repeat what I did with minimum debt. I went into debt
my last quarter ($720) and paid it off in 4 years.
______________________________________________________________
http:as//www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

In 2011, the relative value of $500.00 from 1962 ranges from $2,970.00
to $12,900.00.

A simple Purchasing Power Calculator would say the relative value is
$3,720.00. This answer is obtained by multiplying $500 by the percentage
increase in the CPI from 1962 to 2011.

The best measure of the relative value over time depends on if you are
interested in comparing the cost or value of a Commodity , Income or
Wealth , or a Project . For more discussion on how to pick the best
measure, read the essay "Explaining the Measures of Worth."

If you want to compare the value of a $500.00 Commodity in 1962 there
are three choices. In 2011 the relative:
real price of that commodity is $3,720.00
labor value of that commodity is $4,030.00(using the unskilled wage) or
$4,960.00(using production worker compensation)
income value of that commodity is $7,710.00

If you want to compare the value of a $500.00 Income or Wealth , in 1962
there are three choices. In 2011 the relative:
historic standard of living value of that income or wealth is $3,720.00
economic status value of that income or wealth is $7,710.00
economic power value of that income or wealth is $12,900.00

If you want to compare the value of a $500.00 Project in 1962 there are
four choices. In 2011 the relative:
historic opportunity cost of that project is $2,970.00
labor cost of that project is $4,030.00(using the unskilled wage) or
$4,960.00(using production worker compensation)
economy cost of that project is $12,900.00

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:29:19 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Swingman wrote:
>> > ... then tell me we, as a culture,
>>> haven't been f*** to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
>>> tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights" to
>>> higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.
>>>
>>
>> That's a a nicely stated summary.
>
> 'Twas, wasn't it? I'd like to know how many of these kids who
> graduate actually take up the career associated with their college
> classes.

Every one of the computer science majors I know that "got it" has gotten
a job (over the years). Just like when I earned my BS, there are a few
(maybe 10%?) that can earn the degree but don't really have what it
takes. One student I know got a job with Microsoft this year. That
doesn't usually happen. It gives me confidence that the computer science
curriculum is still reasonably-designed however. It includes
topics *some* would consider "dated" like compiler construction
(building a lexical scanner, etc.).

>
> --
> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
> one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
> all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
> -- George Bernard Shaw

On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:54:39 -0500, Swingman wrote:

> This country is sick, terminally so ... there is no longer a moral
> component ... it's a game the system business model, get what you can
> and fuck the consequences, brought to you by a Senator sponsored by
> Pfizer, a Congressman sponsored by Monsanto, and a legal system
> providing guidance in the business model.

Amen! Although I wouldn't limit it to the US. Seems to me we've done
quite well exporting our business model, although some countries have had
that model longer than we have.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:34:24 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:

> The best measure of the relative value over time depends on if you are
> interested in comparing the cost or value of a Commodity , Income or
> Wealth , or a Project . For more discussion on how to pick the best
> measure, read the essay "Explaining the Measures of Worth."

IOW, economists can make the numbers say whatever they want them to
say :-).

But they can't quantify the loss of value inherent in the changes in our
society since I was a youngster.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

But we as kids probably had more guidance and less free will than todays
kids. I pretty much accept trends today however I draw the line where a
kid can't keep his pants up and his whole butt crack shows.

I wonder what kind of pressure causes one to want to wear his pants
below his butt?
============================================================================
Practicing to be a plumber.
==========================================================================


Not to mention things we did as kids are still being done as adults.
Long hair, bell bottom jeans, hip huggers, short shorts, plaid pants, oh
MY! Loud music, POT etc.
========================================================
Worn your platform shoes lately ? How about your tie dyed shirt? Some things
(thankfully) go away.

On 5/16/2012 2:53 PM, Han wrote:
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Swingman wrote:
>> > ... then tell me we, as a culture,
>>> haven't been f*** to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
>>> tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights"
>>> to higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.
>>>
>>
>> That's a a nicely stated summary.
>>
>> Bill


> NOTE: Education costs money. Who should bear the costs - society or
> each individual - is a moral question that everyone should weigh in on.
> nonsense.

It is as painfully obvious as the nose on your face that the jury
already came back with that verdict:

The availability of student loans is precisely what has led to the
spiraling costs of higher education. More student loans will only
guarantee higher costs because colleges and universities, with their
corporatist attitude ("MBA think" again), will continue to line their
pockets just like Wall Street has.

Another shameful example of failure to fathom consequences.

Between the government, banks, and the legal system it has become
impossible to pay off students loans; these high interest rate
non-forgivable loans, which the taxpayer will pay again when that
inevitable bubble bursts ... and this one will be more on the order of
an explosion.

This country is sick, terminally so ... there is no longer a moral
component ... it's a game the system business model, get what you can
and fuck the consequences, brought to you by a Senator sponsored by
Pfizer, a Congressman sponsored by Monsanto, and a legal system
providing guidance in the business model.

Look no further than this weeks infamous, upcoming IPO for the
underlying idiocy of it all ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/17/2012 2:55 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> Simplifying your life is reducing the number of keys on your key ring.
>
> If you are a sailor, you have arrived when you have only a single key
> for the boat on your key ring.

Now _that_ is a noble goal ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 15 May 2012 07:44:27 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>>What happens when schools stop teaching music.
>>
>>What happens when you let them do this to express their individuality.
>>
>>What happens when you don't discipline your kids.
>>
>>What happens when kids have more money than their parents.
>>
>>
>>
>>Yes, this is Justin Berber. White boy gone wrong and having no pride in
>>himself.
>>
>>http://music.yahoo.com/photos/wango-tango-2012-slideshow/a-photo-1337025812.html
>
>
> What an interesting group of people. Glad I'm of a different
> generation.

And.......most, if not all, are Obama supporters.
Scary

On Wed, 16 May 2012 13:39:29 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 5/16/2012 12:09 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>>
>>> How many years apart was that. I remember working for $1.25 an hour
>>> too. Don't recall getting anything at Confirmation.
>> ------------------------------
>> Talk about dating one's self.
>>
>> The minimum wage was $0.50/hr when I started working.
>>
>> Was still only earning $2.00/hr my last year in college.
>
>
>Starting at 14, and all through jr and sr high school, I made .50/hour
>working at a nursery/landscape company after school and on weekends ...
>$4/day, seven days a week in the summer. From that, and besides buying
>my own clothes and shoes (and a $200, 1949 Willys Jeepster), I saved
>$1000 for my entire first year of college in 1962, which paid for
>tuition, books, room and board, laundry, and had $40 left to last the
>rest of my freshman year.

Ouch!


>I got a check for $8 from my parents in April of the second semester of
>that year, which I didn't even cash ... their first, last and total
>financial contribution to my higher education.

Dad put up $100 toward my first car, and my parents covered my
automotive tech school (UTI) + room and board (cheap in Phoenix,
shared house and shared apartment.) Work comp paid for my retraining
after the accident (Coleman College Computer Electronics Technology)
But I've been working since age 14.


>Let's see a kid try that today ... then tell me we, as a culture,
>haven't been fucked to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
>tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights" to
>higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.

What sucks is that today's kids think they absolutely _must_ own a
brand new vehicle with ten grand of bling on it, $400 tennies,
designer sunglasses and jeans, a state-of-the-art laptop computer,
4,000 new computer games, and a grand a week drug/woman habit.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:29:19 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Swingman wrote:
> > ... then tell me we, as a culture,
>> haven't been f*** to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
>> tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights" to
>> higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.
>>
>
>That's a a nicely stated summary.

'Twas, wasn't it? I'd like to know how many of these kids who
graduate actually take up the career associated with their college
classes.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

On Wed, 16 May 2012 06:55:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Yeah but we were trying to be grown up. Today's with no structure the
>kids,"trak Bieber for example" are reverting to infantilism. He looks
>just like out son during patty training.

Yeah, but we're old guys. We really have very little understanding of
the kind of pressures and difficulties kids go through these days. All
we have is our knowledge that we got through it. What makes sense to
us these days wouldn't mean much to us if we were sixteen again.

On Wed, 16 May 2012 02:25:54 +0000 (UTC),
>Yeah, today's kids are a real mess. I sure am glad that I was a teenager
>in the 60s and 70s. We didn't have any on & off stage nudity, drug use,
>sex, or other inappropriate behaviour at rock shows back in those days,
>did we?

Either your memory is going from old age or you were a protected
child. The 60s and 70s were my teenage years and nudity and drug use
were the order of the day.

On 5/16/2012 12:09 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>
>> How many years apart was that. I remember working for $1.25 an hour
>> too. Don't recall getting anything at Confirmation.
> ------------------------------
> Talk about dating one's self.
>
> The minimum wage was $0.50/hr when I started working.
>
> Was still only earning $2.00/hr my last year in college.


Starting at 14, and all through jr and sr high school, I made .50/hour
working at a nursery/landscape company after school and on weekends ...
$4/day, seven days a week in the summer. From that, and besides buying
my own clothes and shoes (and a $200, 1949 Willys Jeepster), I saved
$1000 for my entire first year of college in 1962, which paid for
tuition, books, room and board, laundry, and had $40 left to last the
rest of my freshman year.

I got a check for $8 from my parents in April of the second semester of
that year, which I didn't even cash ... their first, last and total
financial contribution to my higher education.

Let's see a kid try that today ... then tell me we, as a culture,
haven't been fucked to the max by the subsequent 'progressive think' of
tax payer funded entitlements, student loans, and individual "rights" to
higher education ... yeah "right", as long as someone else pays.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>> 'Twas, wasn't it? I'd like to know how many of these kids who
>>> graduate actually take up the career associated with their college
>>> classes.
>>
>> Heh!
>>
>> I saw an interview a few months back with an "Occupy" protester. He
>> had spiked hair and a dangling ear-ring. He was also carrying a sign
>> with some unintelligible slogan. Anyway, he virtually shouted to the
>> interviewer: "I graduated from college three months ago and I can't
>> even get an interview for a job..."
>>
>> "What was your college major?" the interviewer innocently asked.
>>
>> "I don't see how that's relevant!" retorted the hippie.
>
> If his college major is an issue at this point he isn't a hippie. Any
> hippie today has a long employment history or is retired.
>
> Spiked hair, dangly earring, and "I don't see how that's relevant" is
> punk.

Oh.

I came of age in the generation that came after beatniks and before hippies.
I'm totally lost on the appropriate moniker.

Thanks.