With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
So long,
Brad in North Carolina
Somebody wrote:
> I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
> heater, flash back to the drying laminate.
<snip>
ABSOLUTELY.
Using any solvent based contact adhesive, be it used for laminate or floor
covering such as tile or carpet, it is mandatory that every burner and pilot
light be turned off before you start working.
Learned that lesson from a guy who refaced kitchen cabinets.
First thing he would do is shut off the natural gas or propane in the house.
Many years ago, by chance was having dinner with a guy in the carpet
installation business. (We were both sailors and he invited me to dinner)
He told me of one of his experienced installers who missed a pilot light on
a heater.
About 30-45 minutes into the job, the fumes ignited sending a ball of flame
along the floor.
Good thing the poor bastard died quickly, guess there wasn't much left to
scrape up and bury.
If you suspect you are going to be working with adhesives that contain
VOC's, make sure there are no open flames in the building.
If you don't give a damn about yourself, so be it, especially if your life
insurance is paid up; however, have a little consideration for others who
may be in the area. Maybe their insurance isn't paid up.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
I use a floor space heater if my feet get really cold, else I have a
Marvin radiant heater 750w & 1500w settings thats attached to the
rafters, tilts & swivels & heats me and the air really well. Got 2 of
them last year on clearence from Lowe's for $25ea. BTW, my shop is an
unattached 12x16 bldg, 3' pitch, open ceiling and insulated. They keep
it real toasty in there.
Brad Heidinger wrote:
> With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> So long,
> Brad in North Carolina
>
yep, needs to be around 60 - 70 for any fun to start. otherwise it is
just work. :-)
I keep the shop at 45 (thermo doesn't go any lower) and jack it up when
I am going to work there for any length of time.
BRuce
brad heidinger wrote:
> It gets cold enough to chill the bones when I tinker for long periods of time.
> Last winter, the thermometer in my shop read 36 F. Too cold to have fun. Maybe
> not arctic conditions but it is plenty chilly for me. Call me soft but I
> prefer "warm and toasty".
>
> So long,
> Brad
>
> Leslie Gossett wrote:
>
>
>>geez, how cold does it get there?
>>
>>"Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
>>>their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
>>>heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
>>>hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
>>>into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
>>>air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>>>
>>>So long,
>>>Brad in North Carolina
>>>
>
>
people create moisture, mother nature creates moisture, propane will be
the least of your problems. I find the unvented propane heater creates
less moisture than the normal summer humidity.
not a lot of temp below 32 "normally" and not for long period of time.
low 40s most of the winter, 31 - 33 during the ice storms.
BRuce
Mark wrote:
>
>
> Brad Heidinger wrote:
>
> I have looked
>
>> into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
>> air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
>
>
> Buy a used furnace.
>
> Propane makes lots of moisture and Kerosene makes quite a stink.
>
> I'm curious too, how cold does it get in NC?
>
>
--
---
BRuce
Brad, i use a standard propane heater (2 seasons now) and no problems.
there may be more moisture than outside but not more than the summers
here. I am "down" in Benson.
BRuce
brad heidinger wrote:
> Good call on the moisture, I hadn't thought of that. I figured at those temps
> all moisture would burn off. Interesting point. True about kerosene. It does
> stink. (Note-No worse than B.L.O.)
>
> As far as NC temps, depends where you live in NC. Eastern part it is
> relativity mild (average low Dec-Feb 36F, average high 55F). It is 15 degrees
> colder in the western part of the state. The western part is mostly
> mountainous while the eastern part is pancake flat. Last winter, we had a
> "deep freeze" for two weeks straight. It dipped into the teens at night and
> never got much over freezing. It wouldn't have been so bad but the cold
> weather coincided with duck hunting season. I had to break ice for decoys
> during those hunts. That is unheard of here in central NC. All in all, great
> weather here in NC. As a side note, we have more sunny days in Raleigh than
> L.A.
>
> Brad~
>
> Mark wrote:
>
>
>>Brad Heidinger wrote:
>>
>> I have looked
>>
>>>into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
>>>air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>>
>>Buy a used furnace.
>>
>>Propane makes lots of moisture and Kerosene makes quite a stink.
>>
>>I'm curious too, how cold does it get in NC?
>
>
--
---
BRuce
I have a 13 x 28 shop and use one of the borg ceramic models (18K BTU
maybe) and it is more than adequte. there is some fumes created from
the burning of dust in the air and "conversion" of the finishing fumes.
I would not spray in the shop but just small touch ups.
Bruce
Nick Bozovich wrote:
> Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater. The
> Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at. It
> does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
>
> Would I have a problem if I was doing some staining or other finish work?
> What about sanding and generating fine dust?
>
> The Borg (and Lowes) also have a ceramic heater, but they don't look big
> enough or powerful enough to heat my shop space. Anyone have any experience
> with those?
>
> Thanks -
>
> Nick B
>
>
> "Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
>>their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
>>heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
>>hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
>>into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
>>air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>>
>>So long,
>>Brad in North Carolina
>>
>
>
>
--
---
BRuce
I have the same tank and as long as I use a minimum of 300 gals the tank
is free, otherwise it is $60 for the year.
Bruce
Mike wrote:
> Bob:
>
> The 120 gal tank is approximately 41/2 ft tall and about 30 inches in
> diameter. We moved it from the truck in the driveway to the pad I poured in
> back of the garage with 3 guys and a hand truck. The driver claims they are
> about 500# filled and I believe it. You can lease them also. I am leasing
> this one and if I change suppliers, I will buy a used one for 50-75 dollars.
>
> Mike
>
> .
> "Bob G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>What size do they actually call that 120 Gal Tank...?
>>
>>The reason I ask is last winter my sons installed a natural gas furnace in
>>my shop that they converted to Propane
>>for me...and since the shop is located where the Truck can not reach it
>
> with
>
>>their 100 foot hose I have been using
>>100 POUND tanks... one connected and 2 in reserve..
>>each holds about 22 gallons...
>>My plan for this year (or next) is to buy a tank and install it near the
>>driveway and trench a line back to the shop...
>>
>>As it is I do NOT heat the shop...but when I ENTER I
>>fire up both the 116,000 BUT furance and a 30,000
>>Ready heater...the ready heater blasts the chill off and within 20 minutes
>>the shop is in the mid 60's even on 10 degree mornings... used less then
>
> 10
>
>>gallons of Kero last year and used 5 tanks (hair over 100 gallons of
>>Propane)
>>
>>Major reason is that with 30 inches of snow on the ground I had a hell of
>
> a
>
>>time swapping out the 100 POUND tanks...especially with the drifts... lol
>>
>>The furnace was brand new never used (but was installed) in a new home
>
> that
>
>>was susposed to be heated with oil...lol .. the boys got it for free
>>...someone was covering their butt in their companies home office I
>
> guess...
>
>>Bob G.
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
---
BRuce
I seriously doubt that, I don't spray any finishes and the heater is on
all the time so the vapors do not build up. yes there is plenty of
ventilation. I have asthma and if I can still breathe then there is no
explosion danger. Do you sell sealed combustion furnaces? i can see no
other reason to be so dramatic about a situation that exists in about
every 3rd garage through the sate and I do not remember seeing a rash of
articles in the paper where the garage blew up. be realistic! this is
absurd as grounding your DC so it doesn't blow up.
yes i have experience with grain silos and loose hay storage. In order
to create an environment that would produce a dust explosion you would
not be able to see to the other end of the shop. the ratio of dust to
air has to be quite high. the presence of a combustion source, pilot
light, reduces the chance of that explosion due to "burn off".
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
> <BRuce> wrote in message news:1067562408.60752@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
>>I have a 13 x 28 shop and use one of the borg ceramic models (18K BTU
>>maybe) and it is more than adequte. there is some fumes created from
>>the burning of dust in the air and "conversion" of the finishing fumes.
>> I would not spray in the shop but just small touch ups.
>>
>>
>>Bruce
>
>
> YOU are playing with your life. Any solvents or finishes in that small of a
> shop without exceptional ventilation, could be disastorios. Just because it
> has not happened yet, does not mean it won't.
>
> By the way, ever seen a dust explosion? My guess is no.
>
>
>>Nick Bozovich wrote:
>>
>>>Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater.
>
> The
>
>>>Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at.
>
> It
>
>>>does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
>>>
>>>Would I have a problem if I was doing some staining or other finish
>
> work?
>
>>>What about sanding and generating fine dust?
>>>
>>>The Borg (and Lowes) also have a ceramic heater, but they don't look big
>>>enough or powerful enough to heat my shop space. Anyone have any
>
> experience
>
>>>with those?
>>>
>>>Thanks -
>>>
>>>Nick B
>
>
> A ceramic heater could be used as a pre-heater, if no fumes are present, but
> do not use them as primary heat, unless absolutely sure there are no
> significant amounts of solvents or dusts in the air. It sometimes does not
> take much of either, at the wrong place, to cause a big problem.
>
> Btu's is what we need to help you. Also, size and how well insulated, and
> airtight.
--
---
BRuce
yep, what he said. there are some odd smells when the vapors burn off
as there is with the dust. Like everything else we do in the shop,
think first and walk through the possibilities of danger.
BRuce
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Nick Bozovich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater. The
>>Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at. It
>>does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
>>
>>Would I have a problem if I was doing some staining or other finish work?
>>What about sanding and generating fine dust?
>
>
>
> Open flame carries the usual cautions of flamable paints, solvents, etc.
> Shops often have gas cans and lawnmowers with fuel. Use your head there.
>
> I do a little staining with my heater on. (I'd never spraypaint though.)
> Not enough to cause any explosion problems, but the fumes do pass through
> the flame and burn. Of course they leave an odor when they do. You need
> more than normal ventilation.
>
>
>>The Borg (and Lowes) also have a ceramic heater, but they don't look big
>>enough or powerful enough to heat my shop space. Anyone have any
>
> experience
>
>>with those?
>
>
> Do you mean those little ceramic cubes? They are 1500 watts and have no more
> power than any other 1500 watt space heater. 1500 watts = 5118 Btu. My
> propane heater is 30,000 Btu. Depends on what you really need.
> Ed
>
>
--
---
BRuce
yep, nobody has a gas heater in the garage, nobody welds or uses a
cutting torch in the garage. nobody uses "torpedo heaters" in a garage.
yep all those garages with their lawn mowers, gas cans, mineral spirits
etc and all those sources of ignition and MOST garage fires caused by
spontaneous combustion of an oily rag NOT ignition of a handful of dust.
As for gambling with lives, not a chance. gas lines tested to 30PSI, no
PVC for air lines, all electrical above local code and all guards in
place. Explosion from cutting a piece of plywood or wiping finish on
2x4 foot piece of wood, just isn't going to happen. I'm not saying it
hasn't because i have not read every accident report in the world but if
it did it would have the same likelihood as getting hit with an airplane
wheel. As in all things there are extremes, this news group has many of
them.
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
> <BRuce> wrote in message news:1067567446.70867@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
>>I seriously doubt that, I don't spray any finishes and the heater is on
>>all the time so the vapors do not build up. yes there is plenty of
>>ventilation. I have asthma and if I can still breathe then there is no
>>explosion danger.
>
> *****************
>
> You are being nieve. Ever seen what can (and will) happen when contact
> adhesive is used around open flame? That isn't spraying. Lots of other
> solvents are nearly that flamable.
> __________________
>
> Do you sell sealed combustion furnaces? i can see no
>
>>other reason to be so dramatic about a situation that exists in about
>>every 3rd garage through the sate and I do not remember seeing a rash of
>>articles in the paper where the garage blew up. be realistic!
>
> *************************
>
> How many garages have open flames around solvents or finishes. Not 1 in 3.
> Not many, because most are smart enough not to use solvents around open
> flame. Think there is a reason why pilot lights have to be elevated 18"
> above the floor in a garage for a reason? I do.
>
> As far as the crack about me selling furnaces, give me a break.
> ________________________
>
> this is
>
>>absurd as grounding your DC so it doesn't blow up.
>>
>>yes i have experience with grain silos and loose hay storage. In order
>>to create an environment that would produce a dust explosion you would
>>not be able to see to the other end of the shop. the ratio of dust to
>>air has to be quite high. the presence of a combustion source, pilot
>>light, reduces the chance of that explosion due to "burn off".
>>
>>BRuce
>
> *************************
>
> I live in the heart of the largest area of furniture production in the
> country. Dust explosions happen all of the time in plants where the air is
> considered very breathable, by even OSHA's own standards.
>
> All widespread dust explosion takes is a small zone of favorable factors, in
> a small area. The explosion then displaces air,(makes wind) and causes
> vibrations that puts more settled dust into the air, thus causing a "wave"
> of explosion zone that gets ever larger and more intense. If you think this
> is myth, or that it won't happen to you, wise up. It probably won't happen
> to you, but I don't gamble with lives, when there is no need to. For sure
> don't give advise saying there is absolutely no risk. YOU are absolutely
> misinformed, and WRONG.
--
---
BRuce
what part of NC, so I can stay away. wouldn't want to drive through and
stir up any dust and inadvertently burn the town down.
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
> <BRuce> wrote in message news:1067567638.331091@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
>>yep, what he said. there are some odd smells when the vapors burn off
>>as there is with the dust. Like everything else we do in the shop,
>>think first and walk through the possibilities of danger.
>>
>>BRuce
>
>
> YOU are not.
--
---
BRuce
I'm goin to backtrack just a bit. Can you post an article where a
garage or hobbyest shop had one of these dust or solvent based
incidents? not a grain silo, not a plastics manufacturing plant, just
an ordinary home shop or garage.
With some actual facts even I could change my opinion. I am basing my
opinion on my experience and lack of evidence that it does happen.
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
> <BRuce> wrote in message news:1067567638.331091@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
>>yep, what he said. there are some odd smells when the vapors burn off
>>as there is with the dust. Like everything else we do in the shop,
>>think first and walk through the possibilities of danger.
>>
>>BRuce
>
>
> YOU are not.
--
---
BRuce
thank you
Mark wrote:
>
>
>
>> I seriously doubt that, I don't spray any finishes and the heater is
>> on all the time so the vapors do not build up. yes there is plenty of
>> ventilation. I have asthma and if I can still breathe then there is
>> no explosion danger.
>
>
>
> I'm new here so I won't call you a fool.
>
>
>
--
---
BRuce
so will 1/2", our "gardening shed" (need to fool the revenuers) is about
60' from the tank. 1/2" all the way and it has worked well for 3
seasons now.
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
> "Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>BRuce <BRuce> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I have the same tank and as long as I use a minimum of 300 gals the tank
>>>is free, otherwise it is $60 for the year.
>>
>>Yup. Me three. First year out here, we filled it three times. Then we
>
> got
>
>>used to the heat pump, and now we're filling it once and paying the $67
>
> fee
>
>>every year.
>>
>>I should get rid of it and get a smaller tank, but it's there, and I'm
>
> lazy.
>
>>It's nice knowing I have all that gas if we have an *c* st*rm too.
>>
>>The bad part is I can't use any of it to heat my shop. Too far away.
>>
>>--
>>Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
>>Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
>>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>
>
> How far is it, again? 3/8" soft copper will cary propane a long way.
It gets cold enough to chill the bones when I tinker for long periods of time.
Last winter, the thermometer in my shop read 36 F. Too cold to have fun. Maybe
not arctic conditions but it is plenty chilly for me. Call me soft but I
prefer "warm and toasty".
So long,
Brad
Leslie Gossett wrote:
> geez, how cold does it get there?
>
> "Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> > their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> > heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> > hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> > into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> > air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
> >
> > So long,
> > Brad in North Carolina
> >
Good call on the moisture, I hadn't thought of that. I figured at those temps
all moisture would burn off. Interesting point. True about kerosene. It does
stink. (Note-No worse than B.L.O.)
As far as NC temps, depends where you live in NC. Eastern part it is
relativity mild (average low Dec-Feb 36F, average high 55F). It is 15 degrees
colder in the western part of the state. The western part is mostly
mountainous while the eastern part is pancake flat. Last winter, we had a
"deep freeze" for two weeks straight. It dipped into the teens at night and
never got much over freezing. It wouldn't have been so bad but the cold
weather coincided with duck hunting season. I had to break ice for decoys
during those hunts. That is unheard of here in central NC. All in all, great
weather here in NC. As a side note, we have more sunny days in Raleigh than
L.A.
Brad~
Mark wrote:
> Brad Heidinger wrote:
>
> I have looked
> > into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> > air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> Buy a used furnace.
>
> Propane makes lots of moisture and Kerosene makes quite a stink.
>
> I'm curious too, how cold does it get in NC?
On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 15:27:23 GMT, The Guy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>If an example of this is determined to actually have happened, the
>perpetrator / victem / dumba** could very well be a candidate for a
>Darwin Award!
http://www.remtox.co.uk/safetysheets/contactadhesive.htm
"5. FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
Contact Adhesive vapours will form explosive mixtures with air. Being
heavier than air, vapours will concentrate and may travel for
considerable distances along the ground, down stairways etc. This
extends the fire and explosion hazard beyond the immediate vicinity of
the workplace. Use sand or earth for containment if there is a danger
of spreading or flowing. Not to be used near naked flames, sparks or
hot surfaces. Do not smoke. Eliminate all sources of ignition and
avoid build up of static electricity by earthing plant etc. Do not
pour adhesive from plastic containers. "
http://classaction.findlaw.com/recall/cpsc/files/1977dec/77121.html
"CPSC Bans Extremely Flammable Contact Adhesives
WASHINGTON, DC (Dec. 9) -- A serious cause of burn injuries and deaths
will be removed soon from the consumer marketplace under a nationwide
ban of extremely flammable contact adhesives sold in larger than
one-half pint containers. The ban was approved today by the Consumer
Product Safety Commission (CPSC).
Extremely flammable contact adhesives, popular for their quick-drying
properties, have a flashpoint at 20°F or below. Because they contain
high concentrations of highly flammable solvents which evaporate
quickly, the products covered by the ban can ignite explosively or
cause flash fires."
From TWA Flight 800 Report
"The senior NTSB scientist at Calverton hangar, Dr. Merritt Birky,
chairman of the Flight 800 Fire and Explosion Group, said the "brown
to reddish-brown-colored material he sent to NASA for testing was
"consistent with a polychloroprene 3M Scotch-Grip 1357 High
Performance contact adhesive."
Regards, Tom.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater. The
Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at. It
does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
Would I have a problem if I was doing some staining or other finish work?
What about sanding and generating fine dust?
The Borg (and Lowes) also have a ceramic heater, but they don't look big
enough or powerful enough to heat my shop space. Anyone have any experience
with those?
Thanks -
Nick B
"Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> So long,
> Brad in North Carolina
>
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
> It is never the fault of the heater.
And the color of the sky on your planet is?
On this planet it's McDonalds fault for spilled coffee and the growing
overweight problem.
I would like to live on your planet but I couldn't blame Beck's for my
beer gut.
Here's something not addressed in this thread or I believe properly
realized. At least by anyone other than myself (sorry if I missed it).
When things go wrong.
It's one thing to use flammables, what happens when the can falls over?
Can't say that's an unforeseen circumstance.
I was working at a propane company. My boss pulls a bobtail into the
shop and starts working on the metering system without bleeding off the
plumbing. Suddenly there is a huge white cloud making it's way to the
standing pilot water heater. And the Heater was a good 10 feet off the
ground. The breeze was from the back of the shop and the doors were
open, that's the only reason we didn't blow up.
He later said there wasn't suppose to be propane there. "There" housed
the mechanism that wasn't working properly. No Kidding. That's Dumb.
Stupid was pulling the truck into the shop in the first place.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
Here's an excerpt from my posting in the 'building a shop' thread:
Heating: Here's where my friends and I got into a bit of a row. They
kept trying to get me to install a wood burner. Granted a wood burner
would be cheaper to use (woods plentiful here) but there is no way to
extinguish it NOW. Something happens where a bunch of fumes get into the
air and I could be a fireball. I opted for a used oil furnace (can't
wait to get it installed). Because an oil burner is forced induction I
can pull combustion air from outside reducing the explosion / fire
hazard. Plus it can be disabled by a breaker or switch.
Stay away from unvented heaters/ heaters that put exhaust back into the
workspace. I.E.: Torpedo or catalyst heaters, K1, LPG or natural gas. 1)
These put phenomenal amounts of moisture into the air. You would be
begging to rust up your tools. What's more important though is 2) what's
in the air gets burnt and put back into the air you breath. Lots of the
materials we use make fumes that aren't healthy in the first place, heat
or burn them changing the compounds into God knows what and your playing
a game of roulette.
What size do they actually call that 120 Gal Tank...?
The reason I ask is last winter my sons installed a natural gas furnace in
my shop that they converted to Propane
for me...and since the shop is located where the Truck can not reach it with
their 100 foot hose I have been using
100 POUND tanks... one connected and 2 in reserve..
each holds about 22 gallons...
My plan for this year (or next) is to buy a tank and install it near the
driveway and trench a line back to the shop...
As it is I do NOT heat the shop...but when I ENTER I
fire up both the 116,000 BUT furance and a 30,000
Ready heater...the ready heater blasts the chill off and within 20 minutes
the shop is in the mid 60's even on 10 degree mornings... used less then 10
gallons of Kero last year and used 5 tanks (hair over 100 gallons of
Propane)
Major reason is that with 30 inches of snow on the ground I had a hell of a
time swapping out the 100 POUND tanks...especially with the drifts... lol
The furnace was brand new never used (but was installed) in a new home that
was susposed to be heated with oil...lol .. the boys got it for free
...someone was covering their butt in their companies home office I guess...
Bob G.
Brad:
I have been using a couple of kerosene heaters and a couple of fans to move
the heat for a few years with moderate to good results but this year I
installed a propane Modine Hot Dawg 45K BTU heater with a thermostat
control and I love it. My propane tank is 120 gal. Well worth the money
spent. I have a 24 x 32 insulated garage. We live in Northern Indiana.
Modine has a 30K btu heater which should work quite well in your size
building.
Mike
"Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> So long,
> Brad in North Carolina
>
Morgans wrote:
> I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
> heater, flash back to the drying laminate. Little bits of soot floated
> through the house, requiring a re-painting of nearly every surface.
>
> Good enough? It cost enough.
Good enough for me.
There are going to be those wanting more proof, like a video.
--
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
You should also be carefull about the carbon monoxide levels when using
those kinds of heaters indoors.
"Grandpa" <jsdebooATcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I use a floor space heater if my feet get really cold, else I have a
> Marvin radiant heater 750w & 1500w settings thats attached to the
> rafters, tilts & swivels & heats me and the air really well. Got 2 of
> them last year on clearence from Lowe's for $25ea. BTW, my shop is an
> unattached 12x16 bldg, 3' pitch, open ceiling and insulated. They keep
> it real toasty in there.
>
> Brad Heidinger wrote:
>
> > With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> > their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> > heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> > hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> > into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> > air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
> >
> > So long,
> > Brad in North Carolina
> >
>
"Nick Bozovich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater. The
> Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at. It
> does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
>
> Would I have a problem if I was doing some staining or other finish work?
> What about sanding and generating fine dust?
Open flame carries the usual cautions of flamable paints, solvents, etc.
Shops often have gas cans and lawnmowers with fuel. Use your head there.
I do a little staining with my heater on. (I'd never spraypaint though.)
Not enough to cause any explosion problems, but the fumes do pass through
the flame and burn. Of course they leave an odor when they do. You need
more than normal ventilation.
> The Borg (and Lowes) also have a ceramic heater, but they don't look big
> enough or powerful enough to heat my shop space. Anyone have any
experience
> with those?
Do you mean those little ceramic cubes? They are 1500 watts and have no more
power than any other 1500 watt space heater. 1500 watts = 5118 Btu. My
propane heater is 30,000 Btu. Depends on what you really need.
Ed
"Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> So long,
> Brad in North Carolina
I use a propane Reddy Heater that cost $99. It is 30,000 Btu and heats my
shop very well. The only downside is that it does make some noise from the
burner and a fan in it. Not obnoxious, but not silent like a home heater.
Depending on the outside temperature, I start it 10 to 20 minutes before I
go out there to work.
So far, I've insulated half my shop this past month. The rest is not done
yet, but anything should help. I figure I can turn the heater off for
longer periods now as more heat will be retained. I'm thinking about an
infra-red heater at some point, but right now I have other priorities.
Ed
My Propane suppliers price ...delivered to my tank are about 60 cents a
gallon cheaper then if he delivers to their (my) LEASED tank... that is a
heck of a price difference!
They quoted me a price of about 400 dollars to purchase
a 440 ???? (crazy nomenclature) tank which would hold
about 120 gallons...
Would love to find a used tank in the
Baltimore-Washington-Frederick-Hagerstown area....
Bob Griffiths
Bob G writes:
>My Propane suppliers price ...delivered to my tank are about 60 cents a
>gallon cheaper then if he delivers to their (my) LEASED tank... that is a
>heck of a price difference!
>
>They quoted me a price of about 400 dollars to purchase
>a 440 ???? (crazy nomenclature) tank which would hold
>about 120 gallons...
>
>Would love to find a used tank in the
>Baltimore-Washington-Frederick-Hagerstown area....
>
And I'd love to find one in the Bedford, VA area, but will guess that any
local dealers will refuse to fill said tank, because it hasn't been "properly
tested." We just priced out getting rid of our leased tank, with totals for a
300 gallon (give or take) tank running something like $900.
I'll lease until the gas furnace goes, then stick in another oil furnace. I
really, really regret taking a couple bits of advice from buddies: one, install
gas--it's cleaner, cheaper, etc. Bullshit. It's cleaner. It is NOT cheaper than
oil, except on a basis that no longer exists. Second bit of advice: lease a
tank and buy one when you've got more cash. You will almost certainly NEVER
have more case available than at the time you install the unit, so buy the
sucker THEN!
With an oil furnace, I'd have spent maybe $500 more at the outset, but the
damned oil tank was and is still in place and ready to go. New filter and fire
it up. If I'd needed a new tank, IIRC, the price is about $250-$300.
Installed.
Charlie Self
"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to be
common." Satchel Paige
BRuce <BRuce> wrote:
> I have the same tank and as long as I use a minimum of 300 gals the tank
> is free, otherwise it is $60 for the year.
Yup. Me three. First year out here, we filled it three times. Then we got
used to the heat pump, and now we're filling it once and paying the $67 fee
every year.
I should get rid of it and get a smaller tank, but it's there, and I'm lazy.
It's nice knowing I have all that gas if we have an *c* st*rm too.
The bad part is I can't use any of it to heat my shop. Too far away.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Dan-o wrote:
> thru the wall. This is like the hotel units that provide heat and AC.
> I'm also in NC and for me the hot humid summers are as bad as the winters
> for shop work. Good luck.
Likewise here in southwestern Virginia. My benchtop has all kinds of sweat
stains, and I was tempted more than once to take my wall air conditioner
back from Mom.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Brad Heidinger wrote:
> With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> So long,
> Brad in North Carolina
>
I use a barrel heater. My shop is 18 X 20, with R13 walls and R25
ceiling insulation, and the place is toasty inside when it is zero outside.
Tim
There are times one has to offer their credentials to validate their
assertions.
I have a degree in Aviation Maintenance and hold a A&P (Airframe and
PowerPlant).
Aviation Maintenance is among the most hazardous professions, mostly due
to the substances we work with. In this profession (as well as many
others) one learns there are long term consequences to chemical
exposure. The effects of exposure to many substances is accumulative.
Because there are no apparent ill effects from exposure today does not
mean there will be no ill effects tomorrow, next week, month, year or
decade.
A breathable atmosphere is no guarantee of safety. I feel a breathable
atmosphere is one of the greatest dangers. I lulls the breather into
thinking there is no or little danger. Urethane based coatings with a
catalyst are an excellent example. Everyone knows to get the hell away
and upwind while Emron (i.e.) is being applied, they don't seem to know
or care Emron (i.e.) gasses for up to several days. These gasses are
breathable but in no way are they healthy.
I don't care to know what vapors turn into when raised to a high
temperature or ran through a flame. I will not be exposed to them, or
keep my exposure to a minimum if I have to be exposed.
I will note: I no longer work in The Industry. I had become sensitized
to widely used substances. It's getting tempting to answer the fliers I
get from contracting companies. I love the work but I don't want to get
poisoned again.
Explosion hazard? A flash over is more excitement than I care to
experience. It wouldn't have to raise the roof, blow out the windows or
drop the building. Even if the odds are one in a million Why take a
chance? My flesh isn't healthy enough as it is, but I think I want to
keep it intact. Burnt or blown off is not an appetizing thought, least
for me.
I've become extremely protective of my health. I'm 45. About ten years
ago those things I did in my youth started catching up with me.
Motorcycle mishaps. Exposure to chemicals. A couple slipped disks from
an "encounter" with SWMBO in the shower. :]
If this is what it feels like to be 45 (especially my neck), I'm not
into adding to what I've already done. It's going to happen, I'm going
to get damaged again, I just know it. I'm not chasing it like I use to.
--
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:28:20 GMT, Brad Heidinger <[email protected]>
scribbled
>With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
>their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
>heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
>hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
>into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
>air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
I have a bathroom fan in the boiler room that blows air into the
attached gara^H^H^H shop. It's usually enough to keep the shop above a
balmy 0 degrees Celsius, unless it goes below -20 degrees C. I also
use a propane heater that attached directly to a 20 lb propane tank.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp;jsessionid=1hhycWSzoRgy1kWkqKyOr9ud2KO2ZN2f4vgFTC0ojZwurdn0lEAY!-400029170!172915523!7205!7305?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374303514896&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395348027&bmUID=1067540897358&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442153227&assortment=primary
It's enough to heat my 14'X28' shop even at 30 below. Humidity from
the burning propane has not been a problem, since I live in a dry
climate, and at low outside temperatures the relative humidity in the
heated shop stays very low.
Most of my friends have wood stoves, but I can't run a chimney since
the shop is below a solarium, and it would take up too much space.
Luigi
In the Yukon
replace "no" with "yk" for real email address.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> From your own above words. ===I don't think you will find many
> instances.====
>
> My god, man, how many would it take, for you? One is too many for me!
>
> I can see nothing will come close to changing your mind.
>
> Good day.
> --
> Jim in NC
I bet more than one person died in their car today. I guess that means you
don't drive. It's all a matter of risk. My understanding is that as far as
dust goes, no one has documented a dust explosion in a home shop. As for
flammable vapors, care would have to be exercised, like in many aspects of
woodworking.
todd
geez, how cold does it get there?
"Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat the
> air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
>
> So long,
> Brad in North Carolina
>
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Well, in my case I rarely spread flamable solvents or adhesives around my
> shop, certainly not in the imediate area of a portable heater! I doubt my
> forced air furnace that is hanging 8 feet in the air will ignite contact
> cement on a bench top 8-10 feet away.
I'd not bet on that. The particular episode of contact cement I know about
was at least that distance, probably more.
> Your burning contact cement episode sounds more like pure carelessness,
but
> then you blame it on a heater! Again I ask, "How far from your work area
was
> the heater?" Pretty close is my guess!
> Greg
It is never the fault of the heater. It is ALWAYS the fault of the worker.
Does not matter if you call it pure carelessness or just plain stupidity, it
has happened.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:28:20 GMT, Brad Heidinger <[email protected]>
wrote:
>With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
>their shops?
Brad:
I use a 150,000 BTU kerosene fired salamander heater that is
controlled by a portable thermostat (both units from Grainger).
The BTU's would be overkill except that they allow me to spray nitro
lacquer in the winter. The lacquer is sprayed in a dedicated spray
room with an explosion proof fan taking care of the exhaust. The
salamander is in the main part of the shop, near the front doors and
the heated air gets into the spray room via holes in the partition
wall that are covered with furnace filters.
The salamander puts out enough heat that it can make up for the heated
air that is exhausted by the fan.
Another nice thing about having such a powerful heater is that it can
bring the shop up to a good working temperature very quickly.
Of course, if I have gluing or finishing to do, the heat has to be
left on overnight or the goods have to be stored in the finishing room
with some electric heaters on to keep them above sixty,
Sometimes I will plug the thermostat into an appliance timer and set
that to come on about an hour before I come into the shop. That's a
pretty nice feature on a cold February morning.
The critical thing to remember with the salamander is that it is an
open flame heat source. In the warm weather I like to mix up lacquer
in the main part of the shop, to keep the spray room less crowded.
When the heater is running I do all the mixing in the spray room, with
the explosion proof fan running.
I don't do much laminate work anymore but when I do I use the glue
that has explosive solvents in it, so that work gets done in the spray
room also.
I don't let the dust build up in the shop and I collect most of the
dust at the source, so I don't worry about dust explosions.
I saw a grain silo that went up as the result of a dust explosion -
hell of a mess.
Regards, Tom.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
Mark wrote:
> Propane makes lots of moisture and Kerosene makes quite a stink.
Gives me a headache very quickly. I have a kerosene heater, but I'd have to
be pretty desperate to ever use it.
> I'm curious too, how cold does it get in NC?
That's really sort of a silly question if you think about it a bit. North
Carolina is a big state, with several different ranges of climates. We
don't know where the OP lives. If he lives out near the coast, then it
probably doesn't get much below 30 very often. If he lives in the western
mountains, it gets plenty damn cold in my book.
One night last year, curiously, it was colder where I was in Asheville (5
degrees) than it was here at home in Virginia (7 degrees.)
There's a lot more to weather than latitude. Look at a climate map
sometime, and you might be surprised.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
> heater, flash back to the drying laminate. Little bits of soot floated
> through the house, requiring a re-painting of nearly every surface.
>
> Good enough? It cost enough.
Contact cement has been documented over the years. I did not seen it, but
I've seen the results of a flash. -- My sister's house during a kitchen
remodel.
Dust is another story. I've never heard of any. You have a whole different
scenario of physics taking place. A volatile gas is much different that a
solid suspended in air. Particles can actually pass through and burn in a
flame and not set off the chain reaction that a gas will.
Ed
No, thats cold enough alright.
"brad heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It gets cold enough to chill the bones when I tinker for long periods of
time.
> Last winter, the thermometer in my shop read 36 F. Too cold to have fun.
Maybe
> not arctic conditions but it is plenty chilly for me. Call me soft but I
> prefer "warm and toasty".
>
> So long,
> Brad
>
> Leslie Gossett wrote:
>
> > geez, how cold does it get there?
> >
> > "Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> > > their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has
no
> > > heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> > > hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> > > into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat
the
> > > air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
> > >
> > > So long,
> > > Brad in North Carolina
> > >
>
Bob:
The 120 gal tank is approximately 41/2 ft tall and about 30 inches in
diameter. We moved it from the truck in the driveway to the pad I poured in
back of the garage with 3 guys and a hand truck. The driver claims they are
about 500# filled and I believe it. You can lease them also. I am leasing
this one and if I change suppliers, I will buy a used one for 50-75 dollars.
Mike
.
"Bob G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What size do they actually call that 120 Gal Tank...?
>
> The reason I ask is last winter my sons installed a natural gas furnace in
> my shop that they converted to Propane
> for me...and since the shop is located where the Truck can not reach it
with
> their 100 foot hose I have been using
> 100 POUND tanks... one connected and 2 in reserve..
> each holds about 22 gallons...
> My plan for this year (or next) is to buy a tank and install it near the
> driveway and trench a line back to the shop...
>
> As it is I do NOT heat the shop...but when I ENTER I
> fire up both the 116,000 BUT furance and a 30,000
> Ready heater...the ready heater blasts the chill off and within 20 minutes
> the shop is in the mid 60's even on 10 degree mornings... used less then
10
> gallons of Kero last year and used 5 tanks (hair over 100 gallons of
> Propane)
>
> Major reason is that with 30 inches of snow on the ground I had a hell of
a
> time swapping out the 100 POUND tanks...especially with the drifts... lol
>
> The furnace was brand new never used (but was installed) in a new home
that
> was susposed to be heated with oil...lol .. the boys got it for free
> ...someone was covering their butt in their companies home office I
guess...
>
> Bob G.
>
>
Greg O wrote:
> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>My god, man, how many would it take, for you? One is too many for me!
>>
>>I can see nothing will come close to changing your mind.
>>
>>Good day.
>>--
>>Jim in NC
>>
>>
>
>
> Well, in my case I rarely spread flamable solvents or adhesives around my
> shop, certainly not in the imediate area of a portable heater! I doubt my
> forced air furnace that is hanging 8 feet in the air will ignite contact
> cement on a bench top 8-10 feet away.
> Your burning contact cement episode sounds more like pure carelessness, but
> then you blame it on a heater! Again I ask, "How far from your work area was
> the heater?" Pretty close is my guess!
> Greg
>
>
If an example of this is determined to actually have happened, the
perpetrator / victem / dumba** could very well be a candidate for a
Darwin Award!
Check out http://www.darwinawards.com/ and click on the "A Gasser of a
Story" link.
Tim
Nick Bozovich wrote:
> Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at. It
> does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
I can get natural gas too, for only $13,500. Whee!
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
<BRuce> wrote in message news:1067562408.60752@sj-nntpcache-3...
> I have a 13 x 28 shop and use one of the borg ceramic models (18K BTU
> maybe) and it is more than adequte. there is some fumes created from
> the burning of dust in the air and "conversion" of the finishing fumes.
> I would not spray in the shop but just small touch ups.
>
>
> Bruce
YOU are playing with your life. Any solvents or finishes in that small of a
shop without exceptional ventilation, could be disastorios. Just because it
has not happened yet, does not mean it won't.
By the way, ever seen a dust explosion? My guess is no.
> Nick Bozovich wrote:
> > Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater.
The
> > Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at.
It
> > does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
> >
> > Would I have a problem if I was doing some staining or other finish
work?
> > What about sanding and generating fine dust?
> >
> > The Borg (and Lowes) also have a ceramic heater, but they don't look big
> > enough or powerful enough to heat my shop space. Anyone have any
experience
> > with those?
> >
> > Thanks -
> >
> > Nick B
A ceramic heater could be used as a pre-heater, if no fumes are present, but
do not use them as primary heat, unless absolutely sure there are no
significant amounts of solvents or dusts in the air. It sometimes does not
take much of either, at the wrong place, to cause a big problem.
Btu's is what we need to help you. Also, size and how well insulated, and
airtight.
--
Jim in NC
"todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > <BRuce> wrote in message news:1067562408.60752@sj-nntpcache-3...
> > > I have a 13 x 28 shop and use one of the borg ceramic models (18K BTU
> > > maybe) and it is more than adequte. there is some fumes created from
> > > the burning of dust in the air and "conversion" of the finishing
fumes.
> > > I would not spray in the shop but just small touch ups.
> > >
> > >
> > > Bruce
> >
> > YOU are playing with your life. Any solvents or finishes in that small
of
> a
> > shop without exceptional ventilation, could be disastorios. Just
because
> it
> > has not happened yet, does not mean it won't.
> >
> > By the way, ever seen a dust explosion? My guess is no.
>
> I've seen the remains of a grain elevator after one. Not a pretty sight.
> With that said, it's my understanding that the atmosphere has to be
> generally unliveable by humans before you get a concentration likely to
> combust.
>
> todd
>
>
You are right, about the zone where the explosions started being
"unliveable". Grain elevators are a different environment. The dust level
in a very large area is more or less constant. In a shop explosion, one
small area with dust and flame, usually has the dust put into the air by a
small, localized disturbance, i.e., blowoff hose, ruptured air line, a few
pallets or sheets of stock falling over. That is then enough to trigger a
chain reaction, that can be enough (given, in these examples, on a larger
scale) to blow out walls, lift roofs, and start flash fires, and kill a good
many people, all in one incident.
It does happen. I have seen the proof, of people in an inspected "liveable"
plant, all consumed by dust explosions. Rare, but hardly able to be
ignored.
--
Jim in NC
<BRuce> wrote in message news:1067567446.70867@sj-nntpcache-5...
> I seriously doubt that, I don't spray any finishes and the heater is on
> all the time so the vapors do not build up. yes there is plenty of
> ventilation. I have asthma and if I can still breathe then there is no
> explosion danger.
*****************
You are being nieve. Ever seen what can (and will) happen when contact
adhesive is used around open flame? That isn't spraying. Lots of other
solvents are nearly that flamable.
__________________
Do you sell sealed combustion furnaces? i can see no
> other reason to be so dramatic about a situation that exists in about
> every 3rd garage through the sate and I do not remember seeing a rash of
> articles in the paper where the garage blew up. be realistic!
*************************
How many garages have open flames around solvents or finishes. Not 1 in 3.
Not many, because most are smart enough not to use solvents around open
flame. Think there is a reason why pilot lights have to be elevated 18"
above the floor in a garage for a reason? I do.
As far as the crack about me selling furnaces, give me a break.
________________________
this is
> absurd as grounding your DC so it doesn't blow up.
>
> yes i have experience with grain silos and loose hay storage. In order
> to create an environment that would produce a dust explosion you would
> not be able to see to the other end of the shop. the ratio of dust to
> air has to be quite high. the presence of a combustion source, pilot
> light, reduces the chance of that explosion due to "burn off".
>
> BRuce
*************************
I live in the heart of the largest area of furniture production in the
country. Dust explosions happen all of the time in plants where the air is
considered very breathable, by even OSHA's own standards.
All widespread dust explosion takes is a small zone of favorable factors, in
a small area. The explosion then displaces air,(makes wind) and causes
vibrations that puts more settled dust into the air, thus causing a "wave"
of explosion zone that gets ever larger and more intense. If you think this
is myth, or that it won't happen to you, wise up. It probably won't happen
to you, but I don't gamble with lives, when there is no need to. For sure
don't give advise saying there is absolutely no risk. YOU are absolutely
misinformed, and WRONG.
--
Jim in NC
<BRuce> wrote in message news:1067602644.776544@sj-nntpcache-3...
> I'm goin to backtrack just a bit. Can you post an article where a
> garage or hobbyest shop had one of these dust or solvent based
> incidents? not a grain silo, not a plastics manufacturing plant, just
> an ordinary home shop or garage.
>
> With some actual facts even I could change my opinion. I am basing my
> opinion on my experience and lack of evidence that it does happen.
>
> BRuce
>
>
I am with you on this Bruce. I work as a HVAC tech and I see commercial
shops with natural gas heat with exposed burners. Strangly, none of them
have blown up even though the dust accumulation inside the furnace is
unbelieveable! I worked on one the other day that had a good inch of saw
dust, right in the burner area.
I would like to see an article of a dust explosion in a home, or even a
small commercial shop.
Greg
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> There are times one has to offer their credentials to validate their
> assertions.
>
>
> I have a degree in Aviation Maintenance and hold a A&P (Airframe and
> PowerPlant).
>
> Aviation Maintenance is among the most hazardous professions, mostly due
> to the substances we work with. In this profession (as well as many
> others) one learns there are long term consequences to chemical
> exposure. The effects of exposure to many substances is accumulative.
>
> Because there are no apparent ill effects from exposure today does not
> mean there will be no ill effects tomorrow, next week, month, year or
> decade.
>
> A breathable atmosphere is no guarantee of safety. I feel a breathable
> atmosphere is one of the greatest dangers. I lulls the breather into
> thinking there is no or little danger. Urethane based coatings with a
> catalyst are an excellent example. Everyone knows to get the hell away
> and upwind while Emron (i.e.) is being applied, they don't seem to know
> or care Emron (i.e.) gasses for up to several days. These gasses are
> breathable but in no way are they healthy.
>
> I don't care to know what vapors turn into when raised to a high
> temperature or ran through a flame. I will not be exposed to them, or
> keep my exposure to a minimum if I have to be exposed.
>
> I will note: I no longer work in The Industry. I had become sensitized
> to widely used substances. It's getting tempting to answer the fliers I
> get from contracting companies. I love the work but I don't want to get
> poisoned again.
>
>
> Explosion hazard? A flash over is more excitement than I care to
> experience. It wouldn't have to raise the roof, blow out the windows or
> drop the building. Even if the odds are one in a million Why take a
> chance? My flesh isn't healthy enough as it is, but I think I want to
> keep it intact. Burnt or blown off is not an appetizing thought, least
> for me.
>
>
> I've become extremely protective of my health. I'm 45. About ten years
> ago those things I did in my youth started catching up with me.
> Motorcycle mishaps. Exposure to chemicals. A couple slipped disks from
> an "encounter" with SWMBO in the shower. :]
>
> If this is what it feels like to be 45 (especially my neck), I'm not
> into adding to what I've already done. It's going to happen, I'm going
> to get damaged again, I just know it. I'm not chasing it like I use to.
>
>
>
> --
> --
>
> Mark
Amen, brother.
Well put.
--
Jim in NC Recovering from second back surgery.
I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
heater, flash back to the drying laminate. Little bits of soot floated
through the house, requiring a re-painting of nearly every surface.
Good enough? It cost enough.
--
Jim in NC
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <BRuce> wrote in message news:1067602644.776544@sj-nntpcache-3...
> > I'm goin to backtrack just a bit. Can you post an article where a
> > garage or hobbyest shop had one of these dust or solvent based
> > incidents? not a grain silo, not a plastics manufacturing plant, just
> > an ordinary home shop or garage.
> >
> > With some actual facts even I could change my opinion. I am basing my
> > opinion on my experience and lack of evidence that it does happen.
> >
> > BRuce
> >
> >
>
> I am with you on this Bruce. I work as a HVAC tech and I see commercial
> shops with natural gas heat with exposed burners. Strangly, none of them
> have blown up even though the dust accumulation inside the furnace is
> unbelieveable! I worked on one the other day that had a good inch of saw
> dust, right in the burner area.
> I would like to see an article of a dust explosion in a home, or even a
> small commercial shop.
> Greg
>
>
Morgans notes:
>
>I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
>heater, flash back to the drying laminate. Little bits of soot floated
>through the house, requiring a re-painting of nearly every surface.
>
>Good enough? It cost enough.
Yeah, well...it isn't really necessary to buy contact adhesive that has such a
volatile solvent base. Titebond Neoprene Plus Contact Adhesive is one example.
Charlie Self
"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to be
common." Satchel Paige
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
> heater, flash back to the drying laminate. Little bits of soot floated
> through the house, requiring a re-painting of nearly every surface.
>
> Good enough? It cost enough.
> --
> Jim in NC
How close was the heater? I have no doubt that it can happen if the heater
is near enough to the the work surface. Careless accidents can happen.
Portable space heaters are probably very high on the list for causing
fires.I want to know about properly installed furances, shop heaters causing
explosions or fires from dust or fumes. I don't think you will find many
instances.
Greg
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> How close was the heater? I have no doubt that it can happen if the heater
> is near enough to the the work surface. Careless accidents can happen.
> Portable space heaters are probably very high on the list for causing
> fires.I want to know about properly installed furances, shop heaters
causing
> explosions or fires from dust or fumes. I don't think you will find many
> instances.
> Greg
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From your own above words. ===I don't think you will find many
instances.====
My god, man, how many would it take, for you? One is too many for me!
I can see nothing will come close to changing your mind.
Good day.
--
Jim in NC
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
> > heater, flash back to the drying laminate. Little bits of soot floated
> > through the house, requiring a re-painting of nearly every surface.
> >
> > Good enough? It cost enough.
>
>
> Contact cement has been documented over the years. I did not seen it, but
> I've seen the results of a flash. -- My sister's house during a kitchen
> remodel.
>
> Dust is another story. I've never heard of any. You have a whole different
> scenario of physics taking place. A volatile gas is much different that a
> solid suspended in air. Particles can actually pass through and burn in a
> flame and not set off the chain reaction that a gas will.
> Ed
>
>
Read fire codes. Your insurance may not pay if you have a problem and are
not in compliance.
http://www.utexas.edu/policies/hoppm/h1024.html
--
Jim in NC
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Read fire codes. Your insurance may not pay if you have a problem and
are
> > not in compliance.
> > http://www.utexas.edu/policies/hoppm/h1024.html
> > --
> > Jim in NC
>
> I'm not sure what this means. The regulations of the University of Texas
are
> not necessarily going to be enforced by my insurance company in CT.
>
> Their regulations make a lot of sense overall, but they do not change the
> laws of physics. This question comes up frequently here, but no one has
> ever provided proof of a home shop fire caused by static electricity in a
> dust collection system or an open flame heater.
> Ed
=====================
You think they just invented this stuff? It was what I came across first.
I'm done with this. You all do what you want. I, myself, will do what I
can to eliminate risks that are unnecessary.
--
Jim in NC
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> My god, man, how many would it take, for you? One is too many for me!
>
> I can see nothing will come close to changing your mind.
>
> Good day.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>
Well, in my case I rarely spread flamable solvents or adhesives around my
shop, certainly not in the imediate area of a portable heater! I doubt my
forced air furnace that is hanging 8 feet in the air will ignite contact
cement on a bench top 8-10 feet away.
Your burning contact cement episode sounds more like pure carelessness, but
then you blame it on a heater! Again I ask, "How far from your work area was
the heater?" Pretty close is my guess!
Greg
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Morgans wrote:
>
> > I have PERSONALLY seen contact adhesive fumes catch, ignited by a space
> > heater, flash back to the drying laminate. Little bits of soot floated
> > through the house, requiring a re-painting of nearly every surface.
> >
> > Good enough? It cost enough.
>
>
> Good enough for me.
>
> There are going to be those wanting more proof, like a video.
>
>
I do not argue whether it happened or not, I would just like to know the
conditions under which it happened! My bet is the heater was very close to
the adhesive, a foot or two at the most. Unless it was a Knipco style
heater, then a few feet in front of the heater would suffice.
Greg
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> BRuce <BRuce> wrote:
>
> > I have the same tank and as long as I use a minimum of 300 gals the tank
> > is free, otherwise it is $60 for the year.
>
> Yup. Me three. First year out here, we filled it three times. Then we
got
> used to the heat pump, and now we're filling it once and paying the $67
fee
> every year.
>
> I should get rid of it and get a smaller tank, but it's there, and I'm
lazy.
> It's nice knowing I have all that gas if we have an *c* st*rm too.
>
> The bad part is I can't use any of it to heat my shop. Too far away.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
How far is it, again? 3/8" soft copper will cary propane a long way.
--
Jim in NC
>
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:28:20 GMT, Brad Heidinger <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> >their shops?
>
> Brad:
>
> I use a 150,000 BTU kerosene fired salamander heater that is
> controlled by a portable thermostat (both units from Grainger).
>
> The BTU's would be overkill except that they allow me to spray nitro
> lacquer in the winter. The lacquer is sprayed in a dedicated spray
> room with an explosion proof fan taking care of the exhaust. The
> salamander is in the main part of the shop, near the front doors and
> the heated air gets into the spray room via holes in the partition
> wall that are covered with furnace filters.
>
> The salamander puts out enough heat that it can make up for the heated
> air that is exhausted by the fan.
>
> Another nice thing about having such a powerful heater is that it can
> bring the shop up to a good working temperature very quickly.
>
> Of course, if I have gluing or finishing to do, the heat has to be
> left on overnight or the goods have to be stored in the finishing room
> with some electric heaters on to keep them above sixty,
>
> Sometimes I will plug the thermostat into an appliance timer and set
> that to come on about an hour before I come into the shop. That's a
> pretty nice feature on a cold February morning.
>
> The critical thing to remember with the salamander is that it is an
> open flame heat source. In the warm weather I like to mix up lacquer
> in the main part of the shop, to keep the spray room less crowded.
> When the heater is running I do all the mixing in the spray room, with
> the explosion proof fan running.
>
> I don't do much laminate work anymore but when I do I use the glue
> that has explosive solvents in it, so that work gets done in the spray
> room also.
>
> I don't let the dust build up in the shop and I collect most of the
> dust at the source, so I don't worry about dust explosions.
>
> I saw a grain silo that went up as the result of a dust explosion -
> hell of a mess.
>
>
> Regards, Tom.
> Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
> Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
> http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
Ahh, a voice of reason when having to use open flame heat in a shop.
--
Jim in NC
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> WASHINGTON, DC (Dec. 9) -- A serious cause of burn injuries and deaths
> will be removed soon from the consumer marketplace under a nationwide
> ban of extremely flammable contact adhesives sold in larger than
> one-half pint containers. The ban was approved today by the Consumer
> Product Safety Commission (CPSC).
>
> Extremely flammable contact adhesives, popular for their quick-drying
> properties, have a flashpoint at 20°F or below. Because they contain
> high concentrations of highly flammable solvents which evaporate
> quickly, the products covered by the ban can ignite explosively or
> cause flash fires."
>
Great. I guess we all have to suffer because of other's stupidity.
--
Jim in NC
Wake up idiots! Stop being stoopid!
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Read fire codes. Your insurance may not pay if you have a problem and are
> not in compliance.
> http://www.utexas.edu/policies/hoppm/h1024.html
> --
> Jim in NC
I'm not sure what this means. The regulations of the University of Texas are
not necessarily going to be enforced by my insurance company in CT.
Their regulations make a lot of sense overall, but they do not change the
laws of physics. This question comes up frequently here, but no one has
ever provided proof of a home shop fire caused by static electricity in a
dust collection system or an open flame heater.
Ed
Hi Brad,
I just finished converting my garage to a shop and plan to install a PTAC
thru the wall. This is like the hotel units that provide heat and AC. I'm
also in NC and for me the hot humid summers are as bad as the winters for
shop work. Good luck.
<BRuce> wrote in message news:1067453857.536350@sj-nntpcache-3...
> yep, needs to be around 60 - 70 for any fun to start. otherwise it is
> just work. :-)
>
> I keep the shop at 45 (thermo doesn't go any lower) and jack it up when
> I am going to work there for any length of time.
>
> BRuce
>
> brad heidinger wrote:
>
> > It gets cold enough to chill the bones when I tinker for long periods of
time.
> > Last winter, the thermometer in my shop read 36 F. Too cold to have fun.
Maybe
> > not arctic conditions but it is plenty chilly for me. Call me soft but I
> > prefer "warm and toasty".
> >
> > So long,
> > Brad
> >
> > Leslie Gossett wrote:
> >
> >
> >>geez, how cold does it get there?
> >>
> >>"Brad Heidinger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >>>With winter fast approaching, I was wondering what people use to heat
> >>>their shops? My shop (12' X 14') isn't attached to the house and has no
> >>>heating. I worked last winter with an electrical space heater at my
> >>>hands and feet. It's performance was marginal at best. I have looked
> >>>into some propane systems and kerosene heaters. I would like to heat
the
> >>>air and not just my body. Any suggestions or recommendations?
> >>>
> >>>So long,
> >>>Brad in North Carolina
> >>>
> >
> >
>
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <BRuce> wrote in message news:1067562408.60752@sj-nntpcache-3...
> > I have a 13 x 28 shop and use one of the borg ceramic models (18K BTU
> > maybe) and it is more than adequte. there is some fumes created from
> > the burning of dust in the air and "conversion" of the finishing fumes.
> > I would not spray in the shop but just small touch ups.
> >
> >
> > Bruce
>
> YOU are playing with your life. Any solvents or finishes in that small of
a
> shop without exceptional ventilation, could be disastorios. Just because
it
> has not happened yet, does not mean it won't.
>
> By the way, ever seen a dust explosion? My guess is no.
I've seen the remains of a grain elevator after one. Not a pretty sight.
With that said, it's my understanding that the atmosphere has to be
generally unliveable by humans before you get a concentration likely to
combust.
todd