Client's workshop set up

Highland Pairos wrote:
> I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him with
> benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however is that the
> shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it for him and he
> will use a space heater when he is in there. My concern is going to be the
> humidity. The shop is located in the Northern Virginia area, summers of 90
> degrees and 90% humidity. I have no experience working with a shop that is
> not climate controlled. I do recall browsing over posts here that mention
> that airflow is a big factor in keeping tools from rusting away in a humid
> environment. Does that preclude the use of cabinets for storage? I for one
> prefer cabinets over open shelves for storage, but will obviously recommend
> what will be best for his situation. The shop has two windows in the wall
> opposite the door so he will get some cross flow air movement, at least when
> it is open.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SteveP

Northern Virginia surely can't have more heat and humidity than central
Mississippi. My shop is climate controled only by a heater in winter
and then only when I am out there. I've never had any significant
problems with rust, and I don't do anything special as far as
ventilation to avoid it.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

> I have zero conditioning of any kind--heat or cool--in the shop. The
> worst rust I have ever had was the odd occasions of not wearing my
> sweat band and having rust spots appear from where sweat dripped off
> me. I don't have any persistent overall rust issues.
>

I'm with you there. I just don't do any woodworking in the summer.
The grass always needs cutting, or it's just too stinkin' hot. I'm
sort of anal about rust spots on my cast iron machine tops, and those
drops of sweat will rust pretty quick. Besides, I just can't get
serious about precision when my glasses fog up and there's sweat
dripping off my nose.

I agree that rust is caused by sudden temperature changes that leave
cool steel exposed to warmer moist air. I reasonable weatherproofing
should slow down the temperature changes and prevent it.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

Sat, Dec 2, 2006, 11:32pm (EST+5) [email protected]
(Highland=A0Pairos) doth sayeth:
I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him
<snip>

I'd tell him my concerns and let him make the final decision.
After all, it's hard to symphasize much with a woodworker who hires
someone else to set up his shop for him.



JOAT
I am, therefore I think.

Don Fearn (in [email protected]) said:

| I think it was "Old guy" <[email protected]> who stated:
|
|| I second your idea to put tools in cabinets.
||
|| I keep most of mine in wood cabinets and have a lot less rust
|| problems with those so stored compared to those hung on the wall
|| or the bench. Something about the wood seems to even out the
|| humidity changes.
||
|| I'm in Minnesota and my shop is (barely) heated in the winter and
|| cooled by opening the door in summer. We don't have Virginia
|| humidity, but we do have some.
|
| I hear ya, Old Guy. I'm in Minnesota too, and that worked pretty
| well for me . . . until I got my Man Garage. It's got minimal
| heating, yeah, so it stays (barely) above freezing in the winter,
| but I recently put in a window air conditioner and it helps keep
| everything dry all summer, so NO rusting. I don't run it very
| often, but I AM very careful not to leave doors open when it's
| humid outside. If it gets too humid inside, I run it until the
| humidity (and heat) drops and everything is fine. I'd guess that
| something like that would work in Virginia too . . . .
|
| (What part of MN, OG? I'm near Rochester in the SE corner.)

Before moving to sunny, tropical Iowa I lived in the suburbs of the
micropolis of Cherry Grove (pop. ~45, 30+ miles south of Rochester). I
solar heated my 24' x 32' shop and found it necessary to prop the door
open to keep afternoon temperatures below 90F on sunny winter days.

Perhaps you guys should consider building some solar heating panels.
There's a link in my sig to a few drawings that might provide some
food for thought.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Types.html

You must have been talking to Code Enforcement folks!

Let the firemen use the Man and Garage doors and eat cake after the fire's
out!

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We just had an oversized garage/shop built and code is specific about
> having windows positioned so firemen can access easily wearing their
> safety gear. I'd positioned them not so close to the floor for
> storage underneath considerations until I pondered a bit.
>
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:25:39 GMT, "resrfglc" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Now would betetimeto add more windows. Maybe even a cheap r/c A/C unit
>>high
>>up on the wall. I like windows high on walls as well. Better light, better
>>venting, more privacy. Easier to do now than later.
>>

That's a good suggestion. I will bring that up.

SteveP.

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My son has one of the heat pump window units that both heats and cools.
> If he can afford to have his shop set up, he can afford one of those!
> I think it would be a good recommendation, since I don't think he will
> enjoy the summer work much without it.
> WL
> "Highland Pairos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him
>>with benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however is
>>that the shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it for
>>him and he will use a space heater when he is in there. My concern is
>>going to be the humidity. The shop is located in the Northern Virginia
>>area, summers of 90 degrees and 90% humidity. I have no experience
>>working with a shop that is not climate controlled. I do recall browsing
>>over posts here that mention that airflow is a big factor in keeping tools
>>from rusting away in a humid environment. Does that preclude the use of
>>cabinets for storage? I for one prefer cabinets over open shelves for
>>storage, but will obviously recommend what will be best for his situation.
>>The shop has two windows in the wall opposite the door so he will get some
>>cross flow air movement, at least when it is open.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> SteveP
>>
>
>

I do remember the temperature swing issue always being pointed out as the
major issue. I think I may mention one of the window unit A/C-heat pumps,
(I've never heard of them but I will mention it.)

Thanks for the thoughts so far from everyone.

SteveP.

"Jim Behning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:32:40 GMT, "Highland Pairos"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him
>>with
>>benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however is that
>>the
>>shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it for him and he
>>will use a space heater when he is in there. My concern is going to be
>>the
>>humidity. The shop is located in the Northern Virginia area, summers of
>>90
>>degrees and 90% humidity. I have no experience working with a shop that
>>is
>>not climate controlled. I do recall browsing over posts here that mention
>>that airflow is a big factor in keeping tools from rusting away in a humid
>>environment. Does that preclude the use of cabinets for storage? I for
>>one
>>prefer cabinets over open shelves for storage, but will obviously
>>recommend
>>what will be best for his situation. The shop has two windows in the wall
>>opposite the door so he will get some cross flow air movement, at least
>>when
>>it is open.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>SteveP
>>
> I put a dehumidifier in my wife's tack room. We live east of Atlanta.
> The tack would get moldy otherwise. Problem is the dehumidifier can
> make the room hot so it is set at a minimum setting. The room is
> small, only 12'x12' exterior dimension with 2x6 walls. R19 fiberglass
> batts walls and ceiling. 1/2" foamboard on the walls. A light bulb
> keeps it warm enough in the week of freezing temps to keep the water
> running. If I had clear wall I would have put in a small ac unit or a
> heat pump.
>
> I think cold metal and warm moist air is a problem. A room that does
> not suffer extreme temp changes is probably less prone tocondensation
> and tool rusting. Just my theory though.

I second your idea to put tools in cabinets.

I keep most of mine in wood cabinets and have a lot less rust problems with
those so stored compared to those hung on the wall or the bench. Something
about the wood seems to even out the humidity changes.

I'm in Minnesota and my shop is (barely) heated in the winter and cooled by
opening the door in summer. We don't have Virginia humidity, but we do have
some.

Old Guy
Confined from the shop due to 12 degree temperatures



"Highland Pairos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him with
>benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however is that the
>shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it for him and he
>will use a space heater when he is in there. My concern is going to be the
>humidity. The shop is located in the Northern Virginia area, summers of 90
>degrees and 90% humidity. I have no experience working with a shop that is
>not climate controlled. I do recall browsing over posts here that mention
>that airflow is a big factor in keeping tools from rusting away in a humid
>environment. Does that preclude the use of cabinets for storage? I for
>one prefer cabinets over open shelves for storage, but will obviously
>recommend what will be best for his situation. The shop has two windows in
>the wall opposite the door so he will get some cross flow air movement, at
>least when it is open.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SteveP
>

Now would betetimeto add more windows. Maybe even a cheap r/c A/C unit high
up on the wall. I like windows high on walls as well. Better light, better
venting, more privacy. Easier to do now than later.


"Henry St.Pierre" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Highland Pairos" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him
>> with benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however
>> is that the shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it
>> for him and he will use a space heater when he is in there. My
>> concern is going to be the humidity. The shop is located in the
>> Northern Virginia area, summers of 90 degrees and 90% humidity. I
>> have no experience working with a shop that is not climate controlled.
>> I do recall browsing over posts here that mention that airflow is a
>> big factor in keeping tools from rusting away in a humid environment.
>> Does that preclude the use of cabinets for storage? I for one prefer
>> cabinets over open shelves for storage, but will obviously recommend
>> what will be best for his situation. The shop has two windows in the
>> wall opposite the door so he will get some cross flow air movement, at
>> least when it is open.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> SteveP
>>
>>
>
> Steve,
> You are the professional. Your client is paying you to make decisions.
> Asking this group for advice is courting disaster. This group has
> professionals and amateurs. Most of the professionals are extremely
> talented (Robert, Robo, Leon, swing, etc. and others) and many amateurs
> are talented too (sorry talented amateurs, you are too numerous to list),
> but there are a number of folks who have an idea how things should be and
> give (in their mind) sage advice. Beware of these people even if they
> speak the loudest. I would use a bit of common sense. Do I live in this
> area? How do my tools and machinery react to this environment? A
> discussion with the client as to his expectation and requirement might be
> prudent. I was new to the business a long while ago and had to learn,
> often the hard and expensive way; are you fairly new?
> Regards,
> Hank

Hi Steve

I live in northern va for more than thirty years and had a garage shop with
no HVAC and just a propane heater in the winter.I had no problem with rust
on any of my tools.

Len

"Highland Pairos" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him
> with benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however
> is that the shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it
> for him and he will use a space heater when he is in there. My
> concern is going to be the humidity. The shop is located in the
> Northern Virginia area, summers of 90 degrees and 90% humidity. I
> have no experience working with a shop that is not climate controlled.
> I do recall browsing over posts here that mention that airflow is a
> big factor in keeping tools from rusting away in a humid environment.
> Does that preclude the use of cabinets for storage? I for one prefer
> cabinets over open shelves for storage, but will obviously recommend
> what will be best for his situation. The shop has two windows in the
> wall opposite the door so he will get some cross flow air movement, at
> least when it is open.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SteveP
>
>

Steve,
You are the professional. Your client is paying you to make decisions.
Asking this group for advice is courting disaster. This group has
professionals and amateurs. Most of the professionals are extremely
talented (Robert, Robo, Leon, swing, etc. and others) and many amateurs
are talented too (sorry talented amateurs, you are too numerous to list),
but there are a number of folks who have an idea how things should be and
give (in their mind) sage advice. Beware of these people even if they
speak the loudest. I would use a bit of common sense. Do I live in this
area? How do my tools and machinery react to this environment? A
discussion with the client as to his expectation and requirement might be
prudent. I was new to the business a long while ago and had to learn,
often the hard and expensive way; are you fairly new?
Regards,
Hank

Thanks, that's the kind of directly relatable experience that is helpful.
One thing that I have kept in mind is that my jobsite tools stay in a job
box outside pretty much year round, and things like my chisels don't rust.
I just wanted to confirm the wisdom of recommending cabinets before I get
this guy to spend a fair amount of money.

SteveP.

"leonard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hi Steve
>
> I live in northern va for more than thirty years and had a garage shop
> with no HVAC and just a propane heater in the winter.I had no problem with
> rust on any of my tools.
>
> Len
>
>

I think it was "Old guy" <[email protected]> who stated:

>I second your idea to put tools in cabinets.
>
>I keep most of mine in wood cabinets and have a lot less rust problems with
>those so stored compared to those hung on the wall or the bench. Something
>about the wood seems to even out the humidity changes.
>
>I'm in Minnesota and my shop is (barely) heated in the winter and cooled by
>opening the door in summer. We don't have Virginia humidity, but we do have
>some.
>
>Old Guy
>Confined from the shop due to 12 degree temperatures

I hear ya, Old Guy. I'm in Minnesota too, and that worked pretty well
for me . . . until I got my Man Garage. It's got minimal heating,
yeah, so it stays (barely) above freezing in the winter, but I
recently put in a window air conditioner and it helps keep everything
dry all summer, so NO rusting. I don't run it very often, but I AM
very careful not to leave doors open when it's humid outside. If it
gets too humid inside, I run it until the humidity (and heat) drops
and everything is fine. I'd guess that something like that would work
in Virginia too . . . .

(What part of MN, OG? I'm near Rochester in the SE corner.)

-Don
--
"What do *you* care what other people think?" --Arline Feynman

My son has one of the heat pump window units that both heats and cools.
If he can afford to have his shop set up, he can afford one of those!
I think it would be a good recommendation, since I don't think he will enjoy
the summer work much without it.
WL
"Highland Pairos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him with
>benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however is that the
>shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it for him and he
>will use a space heater when he is in there. My concern is going to be the
>humidity. The shop is located in the Northern Virginia area, summers of 90
>degrees and 90% humidity. I have no experience working with a shop that is
>not climate controlled. I do recall browsing over posts here that mention
>that airflow is a big factor in keeping tools from rusting away in a humid
>environment. Does that preclude the use of cabinets for storage? I for
>one prefer cabinets over open shelves for storage, but will obviously
>recommend what will be best for his situation. The shop has two windows in
>the wall opposite the door so he will get some cross flow air movement, at
>least when it is open.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SteveP
>

I do have to laugh at that aspect of this whole job. I don't think that he
is that serious a woodworker. He has a few tools, but from what I can see
he has a job that only allows him to work, eat, sleep and make lots of
money. This is not going to be a hardcore wood shop, probably more of a
handyman kind of shop.

Steve P.

"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sat, Dec 2, 2006, 11:32pm (EST+5) [email protected]
(Highland Pairos) doth sayeth:
I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him
<snip>

I'd tell him my concerns and let him make the final decision.
After all, it's hard to symphasize much with a woodworker who hires
someone else to set up his shop for him.



JOAT
I am, therefore I think.

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:32:40 GMT, "Highland Pairos"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I have a client who wants us to finish and outfit his workshop for him with
>benches, shelves, cabinets, slat wall, etc. My concern however is that the
>shop will be in a space with no HVAC. We will insulate it for him and he
>will use a space heater when he is in there. My concern is going to be the
>humidity. The shop is located in the Northern Virginia area, summers of 90
>degrees and 90% humidity. I have no experience working with a shop that is
>not climate controlled. I do recall browsing over posts here that mention
>that airflow is a big factor in keeping tools from rusting away in a humid
>environment. Does that preclude the use of cabinets for storage? I for one
>prefer cabinets over open shelves for storage, but will obviously recommend
>what will be best for his situation. The shop has two windows in the wall
>opposite the door so he will get some cross flow air movement, at least when
>it is open.
>
>Thanks,
>
>SteveP
>
I put a dehumidifier in my wife's tack room. We live east of Atlanta.
The tack would get moldy otherwise. Problem is the dehumidifier can
make the room hot so it is set at a minimum setting. The room is
small, only 12'x12' exterior dimension with 2x6 walls. R19 fiberglass
batts walls and ceiling. 1/2" foamboard on the walls. A light bulb
keeps it warm enough in the week of freezing temps to keep the water
running. If I had clear wall I would have put in a small ac unit or a
heat pump.

I think cold metal and warm moist air is a problem. A room that does
not suffer extreme temp changes is probably less prone tocondensation
and tool rusting. Just my theory though.

On 2 Dec 2006 16:01:17 -0800, "DonkeyHody" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Northern Virginia surely can't have more heat and humidity than central
>Mississippi.

Or North Florida (Daytona Beach area, and I'm about three miles from
the ocean). I've had my tools out in the shop (garage) for about three
years now, with varying episodes of all-closed-up-for-weeks, to
garage-door-open-for-six-or-so-hours-per-day. I have big iron and
little toys. Some (little toys) are in roll around tool chests, some
are in plastic cases, some are just, er, around.

I have zero conditioning of any kind--heat or cool--in the shop. The
worst rust I have ever had was the odd occasions of not wearing my
sweat band and having rust spots appear from where sweat dripped off
me. I don't have any persistent overall rust issues.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

We just had an oversized garage/shop built and code is specific about
having windows positioned so firemen can access easily wearing their
safety gear. I'd positioned them not so close to the floor for
storage underneath considerations until I pondered a bit.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:25:39 GMT, "resrfglc" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Now would betetimeto add more windows. Maybe even a cheap r/c A/C unit high
>up on the wall. I like windows high on walls as well. Better light, better
>venting, more privacy. Easier to do now than later.
>