Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
and pay a bit more for my tools.
Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
stayed on the shelf.
Brian Elfert
In so many corporate cases, the customer is the stockholder, not the
consumer. Ford had it right in the 90s and has since lost it. GM never
did get the idea that quality sells in the long run.
j4
Brian Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:19:41 -0500, "RKON"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
I'd rather have a good tool that worry about somebody's job. Those
folks have to eat to, Brian! :) I love my Powermatic BS.
You can vote with your dollars, but I'll vote for the specific tool for
the task, regardless of what country it was made in. Perhaps your
"American Made" tools were made in the continental US, but were made by
Vietnamese, Mexicans, Japanese, Chinese, Canadians, English, Germans,
Italians, and yes, perhaps even a Taiwanese or two?
Find something else to obsess over.
dave
Brian Elfert wrote:
> Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
> I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
> nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
> and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
> Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
> you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
> I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
> stayed on the shelf.
>
> Brian Elfert
On 10-Nov-2003, Trent© <[email protected]> wrote:
> Do you think that the American car
> manufacturers did that of their own accord?
> [...]
>
> International competition is a good thing.
I'd almost agree, except that most tangible improvements in
safety, fuel economy and such were the result of Congress,
not Detroit. If it were up to the idiots in Detroit, they'd
still be selling steel dashboards, non-collapsible steering
columns, cars that disintegrate on impact (compare damage on
regulated cars to unregulated light trucks - 5mph collision
costs a couple of hundred in a car, a couple of thousand in
an SUV) and so on. They still don't get it, but get away
with it because people buy into the dream, not the vehicle.
Mike
You pretty much hit the nail on the head (hey, that on topic, right?)
with that one. Why else would be produce something that is not intended
to last except for greed, and some stimulation to the economy I suppose.
However R&D for a lot of companies (not all thank goodness) is almost
non existant.
Now that I'm retired I'm seeing lots of sand fleas being brought in for
software jobs. Is this because they'll work for less or because they
bitch less than we do? Or because they have limited length visas and
make what they can, take it home and live like kings? Any way you slice
it, we're still digging ourselves deeper and deeper as we depend more
and more upon others to provide us with the basics.
BRuce wrote:
> and much higher. Cisco Systems has moved teams of development and
> software testing to India, HP, MS and American Express all moved call
> centers there.
>
> minimum wage has nothing to do with offshore jobs, just greed, plain ole
> Merican greed.
and much higher. Cisco Systems has moved teams of development and
software testing to India, HP, MS and American Express all moved call
centers there.
minimum wage has nothing to do with offshore jobs, just greed, plain ole
Merican greed.
BRuce
Charlie Self wrote:
> stevec writes:
>
>
>>Everytime Congress raises the minimum wage it makes everyone feel good, but
>>it
>>just ships more jobs to China.
>
>
> Nonsense. It is NOT the minimum wage jobs that are going to China. Burger
> flippers are still in demand, as are counter jumpers at any number of big
> boxes. The guys and gals who can't find jobs are those who made 11-12 bucks an
> hour and up. Mostly up.
>
> Besides, the flight to China didn't gain steam until several years after the
> most current raise to a munificent $5.15 an hour.
>
> Charlie Self
>
> "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
> function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
> things." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
stevec writes:
>Everytime Congress raises the minimum wage it makes everyone feel good, but
>it
>just ships more jobs to China.
Nonsense. It is NOT the minimum wage jobs that are going to China. Burger
flippers are still in demand, as are counter jumpers at any number of big
boxes. The guys and gals who can't find jobs are those who made 11-12 bucks an
hour and up. Mostly up.
Besides, the flight to China didn't gain steam until several years after the
most current raise to a munificent $5.15 an hour.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
Andy Dingley wrote:
> I'm an unemployed UK IT guy. _My_ job didn't go to India, but I used
> to write software that was used by people in UK call centres. As their
> jobs went to India (and they surely are going), there was no longer a
> need for people like me in the UK.
Once upon a time I was a super-expert (IMHO <g>) on xBASE, especially on
combination DOS / UNIX development and implementation. I was the lead on
one project that literally took xBASE to its design limits in the call
stack. I architected and implemented a data-dictionary based directory
crawler that would update database versions overnight. (Extremely necessary
when developing systems whilst data entry people were typing in data. <g>)
Then Microsoft released MS Access 1.0 for $99.00. Literally overnight, I
saw all my hard-won
SET EXCLUSIVE ON
skills had gone the way of the horse and buggy.
Adapt or die.
Currently, I'm closer to dying than adapting, but I'm trying... <g>
-- Mark
Steve:
I think you need to wake up about jobs going oversea's. I work selling
software and all of my clients are moving their IT staff over to India,
China and Phillipines. It is call L-1 Visa's and offshoring. These are
$40,000 -100,000+ jobs. Never coming back. Go to Businessweek.com and search
on L-1 Visa or outsourcing. You will be suprised that it is also accounting,
radiology, engineering, architects, drafting,and on and on.
Rich
"SteveC1280" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Charlie,
>
> I'm a long time reader, occasional contributor to the WREC. I submit that
you
> are wrong and I am right about the minimum wage jobs going to China. I am
> going back to China this Sunday for the second time in a month. Without
going
> into great detail, I visit production factories in China that used to be
in the
> USA. 90% of the people who work there are doing the manual labor that
> Americans used to do. More and more companies are moving jobs to China
because
> of our minimum wage, out-of-control health care costs, etc. What really
scares
> me is the new trend to move high-end jobs, like engineering and software
to
> China and now India.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
RKON wrote:
> Steve:
>
> I think you need to wake up about jobs going oversea's. I work selling
> software and all of my clients are moving their IT staff over to
> India, China and Phillipines. It is call L-1 Visa's and offshoring.
> These are $40,000 -100,000+ jobs. Never coming back. Go to
> Businessweek.com and search on L-1 Visa or outsourcing. You will be
> suprised that it is also accounting, radiology, engineering,
> architects, drafting,and on and on.
(I lost my computer-related job as part of the .com crash and have yet to
make 50% of the income I was making before. I personally feel the pain.)
If indeed we're in a global economy, why isn't this "natural" or even
"desireable"? The key is for the workers who lost their jobs to find other
ways to add even more value to the entire human species. See the writings
of Paul Zane Pilzer for more on this.
I have yet to realize the way in which I can add sufficient value to the
human race to derive the income I wish to receive, but believe me, I'm
working on it. You can't sit around and wish for things to be as they used
to be!
-- Mark
Hi Charlie,
I'm a long time reader, occasional contributor to the WREC. I submit that you
are wrong and I am right about the minimum wage jobs going to China. I am
going back to China this Sunday for the second time in a month. Without going
into great detail, I visit production factories in China that used to be in the
USA. 90% of the people who work there are doing the manual labor that
Americans used to do. More and more companies are moving jobs to China because
of our minimum wage, out-of-control health care costs, etc. What really scares
me is the new trend to move high-end jobs, like engineering and software to
China and now India.
>
>
>
>
Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:51:35 -0800, "JackD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Guess the bottom has fallen out of the trebuchet market...
There never was a trebuchet market. Anyone fool enough to want one
also wants to build their own.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
stevec writes:
>'m a long time reader, occasional contributor to the WREC. I submit that you
>are wrong and I am right about the minimum wage jobs going to China. I am
>going back to China this Sunday for the second time in a month. Without
>going
>into great detail, I visit production factories in China that used to be in
>the
>USA. 90% of the people who work there are doing the manual labor that
>Americans used to do.
But those are not minimum wage jobs in the U.S. My guess is they're also not
minimum wage jobs in China, but maximum wage is so much lower that it's like
paying half the minimum here.
I really don't see how you can equate problems with minimum wage with people
who make two and three times minimum wage.
>What really scares
>me is the new trend to move high-end jobs, like engineering and software to
>China and now India.
It isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys
and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on
American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in deep
doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets
with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs
and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks. And
we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing
capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we
couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what came
to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents and
grandparents did it. I don't think we can.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
>t isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys
>and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on
>American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in
>deep
>doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets
>with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs
>and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks.
>And
>we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing
>capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we
>couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what
>came
>to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents
>and
>grandparents did it. I don't think we can.
>
>
>Charlie Self
Why in the world would you think that a major war could possibly last long
enough today for anyone's production capacity to much enter into the equation?
Who are we going to fight with Tanks and major firepower that are big enough to
A) keep us from getting resupplied B) cause us to use up our existing weaponry
and C) wouldn't rather quickly escalate into a major mushroom event? A major
war that would be a slow starter like WWII that would allow time for us to
build lots of weapons like we did in WWII is not the least likely. Oceans
aren't going to protect us like they did then, enemys big enough to keep us
away from existing suppliers aren't going to be incapable of bringing the war
to us like in WWII. I don't think war preparedness is a valid argument against
free trade - although there are many valid arguments against it ( just as there
are many valid arguments for it).
Dave Hall
Mark Jerde wrote:
> LOL! I was in high school in the 1970's. I'd still wear bell bottoms if
> they were available!
Where have you been for the last few years? They're everywhere. They're
called "flared leg jeans" this time around, and I've only seen them
available in styles aimed at women, but if you're that much into the
hideous things, maybe you don't mind wearing hip huggers.
(Hip huggers are evil. They do absolutely nothing except make even the
best-formed ladies look chunky.)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
"@sbc(nospam)global.net" <""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> writes:
>Did you hear about the senator who carries a Green Beret that is made in
>China? Pretty damn pitiful..... Look at American flags to see where
>they are made. I have seen some MIC (made in China).
Wasn't the Army going to buy a bunch of foriegn made berets until too many
people complained? Apparently, there are so few American clothing
producers left that they couldn't an American firm to produce them quickly
enough.
Brian Elfert
nospam wrote:
> Did you hear about the senator who carries a Green Beret that is made in
> China? Pretty damn pitiful..... Look at American flags to see where
> they are made. I have seen some MIC (made in China).
After September 11th China made a fortune knocking out extremely crappy
American flags.
The one I fly was made in the USA, FWIW.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Charlie Self wrote:
> It was our manufacturing
> capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.
> If we couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the
> rest of what came to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it.
> Or, rather, our parents and grandparents did it. I don't think we
> can.
My understanding (which could be wrong) is the U.S. lacks many of the
necessary quantities of raw materials (like oil and many metals) for
extended self-sustained manufacturing anyway.
-- Mark
Mark Jerde responds:
>My understanding (which could be wrong) is the U.S. lacks many of the
>necessary quantities of raw materials (like oil and many metals) for
>extended self-sustained manufacturing anyway.
Oh, hell yeah. But we've got all the oil we need for 10 mpg SUVs.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>It isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys
>and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on
>American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in deep
>doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets
>with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs
>and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks. And
>we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing
>capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we
>couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what came
>to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents and
>grandparents did it. I don't think we can.
Exactly.
The Japanese have long contended that we should become an agricultural
entity, and do what we do best - consume mass quantities of the
world's resources in exchange for all of our wealth.
We are well on our way with 10mpg SUVs and poorly built $250,000 homes
that rot into the ground in 15 years.
Greg
Andy Dingley wrote:
> There never was a trebuchet market. Anyone fool enough to want one
> also wants to build their own.
You hit that one right on the head... :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > into the hideous things, maybe you don't mind wearing hip huggers.
>
> The style I like use contrasting material for the "vee" and the bottom of
> the "bell." Haven't seen any of those since "Mod Squad" reruns were taken
> off... <g>
ued to wear those in high scholl. Hrd to get where I was (Japan). My mother
made them.
>
> > (Hip huggers are evil. They do absolutely nothing except make even
> > the best-formed ladies look chunky.)
>
> Sorry sir, I disagree. <g> Some of my favorite memories of high school
(in
> the 1970's) involve hip huggers. ;-)
No doubt. You've got to consider though, Silvan's just a kid :)
> -- Mark
>
>
>
Did you hear about the senator who carries a Green Beret that is made in
China? Pretty damn pitiful..... Look at American flags to see where
they are made. I have seen some MIC (made in China).
Charlie Self wrote:
> stevec writes:
>
>
>>'m a long time reader, occasional contributor to the WREC. I submit that you
>>are wrong and I am right about the minimum wage jobs going to China. I am
>>going back to China this Sunday for the second time in a month. Without
>>going
>>into great detail, I visit production factories in China that used to be in
>>the
>>USA. 90% of the people who work there are doing the manual labor that
>>Americans used to do.
>
>
> But those are not minimum wage jobs in the U.S. My guess is they're also not
> minimum wage jobs in China, but maximum wage is so much lower that it's like
> paying half the minimum here.
>
> I really don't see how you can equate problems with minimum wage with people
> who make two and three times minimum wage.
>
>
>>What really scares
>>me is the new trend to move high-end jobs, like engineering and software to
>>China and now India.
>
>
> It isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys
> and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on
> American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in deep
> doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets
> with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs
> and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks. And
> we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing
> capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we
> couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what came
> to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents and
> grandparents did it. I don't think we can.
>
>
> Charlie Self
>
> "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
> function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
> things." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>
> >It was our manufacturing
> >capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.
>
> It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
> day, just like England had hers in the century before.
So what are YOU going to do about it?
Really, I'm curious about what individuals are going to do in the face of
this over the next 10-50 years.
-Jack
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:30:47 -0800, "JackD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >So what are YOU going to do about it?
>
> Well right this week, I'm planning on starving 8-(
Guess the bottom has fallen out of the trebuchet market...
-Jack
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:55:02 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Much of the .com boom was the incompetent doing the unnecessary for the
> >unrealistic, with the net result of inconsequentiallty.
>
> 8-)
>
> I did fairly well on the dot.com boom (but nothing like as well as
> some). Now I'm chasing work that isn't there, for rates that are
> somewhere near they were 15 years ago, and less than half I was
> getting two years ago.
>
> I'm old. I was doing this stuff _long_ before the dot.com thing, and
> I'm good at it (if I go to an overseas conference, it's because I'm an
> invited speaker). But there's a horde of mid-20s dot-com idiot Nathans
> out there who think they know it all, yet will now work for peanuts.
> It's very hard to find work in this climate.
>
> Even woodworking isn't paying. All I can get is minimum-wage labouring
> work. I can't even get a decent joinery job, because I'm not
> officially trained as a toobefour chopsaw merchant. Then I come home
> to my own workshop and agonise over the accuracy of my 17th century
> sandarac varnish formulation, or the exact proportions of a Greene &
> Greene bridle joint. The only option seems to be selling my own work,
> but that's fighting against Ikea's pricing and I really _don't_ want
> to run a business (BTDT, hated it).
>
> --
> Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Try building furniture with bellbottoms...
-Jack "Trying to be helpful here"
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:19:43 -0500, Roy Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>Dr. Know <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The Japanese have long contended that we should become an agricultural
>> entity, and do what we do best - consume mass quantities of the
>> world's resources in exchange for all of our wealth.
>>
>> We are well on our way with 10mpg SUVs and poorly built $250,000 homes
>> that rot into the ground in 15 years.
>
>Meanwhile, the Japanese are turning out nice little hybrids that get 50
>MPG. I guess Bush thinks it's OK to churn out 10 MPG SUVs because
>somebody's gotta buy all that Iraqi oil which Halliburton and Bechtel
>are getting rich on. And once he finishes dismanteling what's left of
>the EPA, Detroit won't have to worry about those pesky fleet mileage
>goals anymore, right?
Greed rules.
Those that HAVE, want MORE.
Those that don't HAVE, want to present the illusion that they do, lest
they be judged unfit.
Those that don't HAVE, never will, unless extremely lucky - hard work
and dedication just won't do it anymore.
<rant on>
Bush is a moron - a greed-monger for the HAVES. For those who are
still deluded by whatever 'charm' he exudes, hindsight will reveal him
for what he is - a fool, brandishing the flag as the weapon
instrumental in undermining the security of the nation and it's
economy before masses of short-sighted but adoring sheep.
<rant off>
JMHO,
Greg
Silvan wrote:
> Mark Jerde wrote:
>
>> LOL! I was in high school in the 1970's. I'd still wear bell
>> bottoms if they were available!
>
> Where have you been for the last few years? They're everywhere.
> They're called "flared leg jeans" this time around, and I've only
> seen them available in styles aimed at women, but if you're that much
> into the hideous things, maybe you don't mind wearing hip huggers.
The style I like use contrasting material for the "vee" and the bottom of
the "bell." Haven't seen any of those since "Mod Squad" reruns were taken
off... <g>
> (Hip huggers are evil. They do absolutely nothing except make even
> the best-formed ladies look chunky.)
Sorry sir, I disagree. <g> Some of my favorite memories of high school (in
the 1970's) involve hip huggers. ;-)
-- Mark
Mark Jerde recalls:
>> (Hip huggers are evil. They do absolutely nothing except make even
>> the best-formed ladies look chunky.)
>
>Sorry sir, I disagree. <g> Some of my favorite memories of high school (in
>the 1970's) involve hip huggers. ;-)
Soom of my favorite memories of the '60s and '70s involve micro mini skirts.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
Charlie Self wrote:
>
> Mark Jerde recalls:
>
> >> (Hip huggers are evil. They do absolutely nothing except make even
> >> the best-formed ladies look chunky.)
> >
> >Sorry sir, I disagree. <g> Some of my favorite memories of high school (in
> >the 1970's) involve hip huggers. ;-)
>
> Soom of my favorite memories of the '60s and '70s involve micro mini skirts.
>
> Charlie Self
>
> "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
> function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
> things." Sir Winston Churchill
>
That was when pumping gas was a GREAT job!
Scott
--
An unkind remark is like a killing frost. No matter how much it warms
up later, the damage remains.
Note that the mini was the skirt of choice well into the eighties in Cuba,
because of the shortage of cloth. Women who didn't wear 'em, and there
were some who should have worn full length and better, were considered
unpatriotic.
Pumping _gas_ never was great, but I did enjoy pumping Ethyl....
"Scott Brownell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Soom of my favorite memories of the '60s and '70s involve micro mini
skirts.
> >
> > Charlie Self
>
> That was when pumping gas was a GREAT job!
>
> Scott
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>
>> It was our manufacturing
>> capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.
>
> It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
> day, just like England had hers in the century before.
>
>
> I'd agree though that US minimum wage jobs aren't the ones going to
> China.
Back when I used to make a lot of money as a software programmer, I knew it
was a short-term jig. Much of what I spent time doing was trivial,
repetitive, and essentially useless.
I have a book titled "Bus Maintenance" from the 1920's. Lots of mechanics
were employed in those days fixing problems many people today haven't seen a
single example of -- like broken axles. I bought my first home/business
computer in 1983. From the mid 1980's to the .dot com crash I fixed a lot
of software broken axles. The basic engineering has improved in both cases
so you don't need a room full of people. Toyota's don't (as a rule) break
their axles; connecting PCs on a network doesn't "break their axles" anymore
either.
Much of the .com boom was the incompetent doing the unnecessary for the
unrealistic, with the net result of inconsequentiallty.
-- Mark
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:46:42 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Charlie Self wrote:
>
>> It was our manufacturing
>> capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.
>> If we couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the
>> rest of what came to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it.
>> Or, rather, our parents and grandparents did it. I don't think we
>> can.
>
>My understanding (which could be wrong) is the U.S. lacks many of the
>necessary quantities of raw materials (like oil and many metals) for
>extended self-sustained manufacturing anyway.
>
> -- Mark
>
And steel.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>It was our manufacturing
>capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.
It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
day, just like England had hers in the century before.
I'd agree though that US minimum wage jobs aren't the ones going to
China.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:55:02 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Much of the .com boom was the incompetent doing the unnecessary for the
>unrealistic, with the net result of inconsequentiallty.
8-)
I did fairly well on the dot.com boom (but nothing like as well as
some). Now I'm chasing work that isn't there, for rates that are
somewhere near they were 15 years ago, and less than half I was
getting two years ago.
I'm old. I was doing this stuff _long_ before the dot.com thing, and
I'm good at it (if I go to an overseas conference, it's because I'm an
invited speaker). But there's a horde of mid-20s dot-com idiot Nathans
out there who think they know it all, yet will now work for peanuts.
It's very hard to find work in this climate.
Even woodworking isn't paying. All I can get is minimum-wage labouring
work. I can't even get a decent joinery job, because I'm not
officially trained as a toobefour chopsaw merchant. Then I come home
to my own workshop and agonise over the accuracy of my 17th century
sandarac varnish formulation, or the exact proportions of a Greene &
Greene bridle joint. The only option seems to be selling my own work,
but that's fighting against Ikea's pricing and I really _don't_ want
to run a business (BTDT, hated it).
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Andy Dingley writes:
>Even woodworking isn't paying. All I can get is minimum-wage labouring
>work. I can't even get a decent joinery job, because I'm not
>officially trained as a toobefour chopsaw merchant. Then I come home
>to my own workshop and agonise over the accuracy of my 17th century
>sandarac varnish formulation, or the exact proportions of a Greene &
>Greene bridle joint. The only option seems to be selling my own work,
>but that's fighting against Ikea's pricing and I really _don't_ want
>to run a business (BTDT, hated it).
Well, then...I'm working on a couple books, but, like you, I had no intention
of going back in business, at least full-time, again, until Ms MBA changed my
mind abruptly (after helping force me to shear off the old ties a few months
earlier).
So, what the hell. This WV/retail writer (that's a joke, but I didn't know it
until too late) adventure cost me enough so retirement is out of the question
for now, but at least I've still got a marketable skill, though it's difficult
to implement some parts of it in a garage workshop with a single 115 volt
circuit.
Come spring, go house, get my tail back to VA and a full-sized shop and really
wind things up. Unless someone wants to buy a small (1550 square feet) house on
a tiny lot in a dying town right NOW!
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
Mark Jerde wrote:
> single example of -- like broken axles. I bought my first home/business
> computer in 1983. From the mid 1980's to the .dot com crash I fixed a lot
> of software broken axles. The basic engineering has improved in both
That's a really good analogy.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:30:47 -0800, "JackD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
>> day, just like England had hers in the century before.
>
>So what are YOU going to do about it?
>Really, I'm curious about what individuals are going to do in the face of
>this over the next 10-50 years.
Starve? War with neighbors for food and shelter? Live in that new
mini-storage warehouse at 90% of their monthly income?
Greg
Dr. Know <[email protected]> wrote:
> The Japanese have long contended that we should become an agricultural
> entity, and do what we do best - consume mass quantities of the
> world's resources in exchange for all of our wealth.
>
> We are well on our way with 10mpg SUVs and poorly built $250,000 homes
> that rot into the ground in 15 years.
Meanwhile, the Japanese are turning out nice little hybrids that get 50
MPG. I guess Bush thinks it's OK to churn out 10 MPG SUVs because
somebody's gotta buy all that Iraqi oil which Halliburton and Bechtel
are getting rich on. And once he finishes dismanteling what's left of
the EPA, Detroit won't have to worry about those pesky fleet mileage
goals anymore, right?
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:30:47 -0800, "JackD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>So what are YOU going to do about it?
Well right this week, I'm planning on starving 8-(
Andy Dingley wrote:
> It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
> day, just like England had hers in the century before.
I hear you guys (by way of the BBC World Service) frequently talking about
the glory days of the Britsh Empire with a combination of nostalgia and the
pragmatic realization that those days are forever relegated to the pages of
history.
I'm feeling the same about the US, so it's funny you should put my feeling
into words so succinctly. We're losing the limelight, and the empire is
collapsing. I don't know if it will be China's century, or the EU's, but I
fear it won't be America's.
I'm thinking what will make or break us will be the space race to Mars.
Whoever gets there first gets the stage, and at this point it's likely that
the first human language spoken from the surface of the red planet will not
be English.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:12:30 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:33:06 GMT, "@sbc(nospam)global.net"
><""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote:
>
>>I too have been to China to visit manufacturing facilities. The workers
>>I have talked to are earning 30 cents an hour. Even if our minimum wage
>>was only $3.00 an hour, they would still be earning only %10 of an
>>American wage earner of minimum wage. So I don't know if the minimum
>>wage is the ONLY reason. Maybe the lack of an OSHA counterpart, and
>>healthcare are contributing.
>
>The cost of living is much, much lower in China. It just doesn't cost
>nearly as much to live there as it does here, that's why they can
>afford to live on a much lower wage.
>
>Maybe instead of complaining about how little they get paid there, we
>should be more worried about why it costs so much to live here?
We just spent 87 billion dollars of our tax dollars on nothing.
Phisherman responds:
>>The cost of living is much, much lower in China. It just doesn't cost
>>nearly as much to live there as it does here, that's why they can
>>afford to live on a much lower wage.
>>
>>Maybe instead of complaining about how little they get paid there, we
>>should be more worried about why it costs so much to live here?
>
>We just spent 87 billion dollars of our tax dollars on nothing.
>
And not just government pissing away our bucks: check into how many Chinese own
SUVs, entertainment centers, their own homes, three vehicles to a two person
family, 2800 square foot "starter" homes, eat meat three times a day, have
large (or small) workshops fully equipped with power tools, and on up and down
the line.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:33:06 GMT, "@sbc(nospam)global.net"
> <""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote:
>
> >I too have been to China to visit manufacturing facilities. The workers
> >I have talked to are earning 30 cents an hour. Even if our minimum wage
> >was only $3.00 an hour, they would still be earning only %10 of an
> >American wage earner of minimum wage. So I don't know if the minimum
> >wage is the ONLY reason. Maybe the lack of an OSHA counterpart, and
> >healthcare are contributing.
>
> The cost of living is much, much lower in China. It just doesn't cost
> nearly as much to live there as it does here, that's why they can
> afford to live on a much lower wage.
>
> Maybe instead of complaining about how little they get paid there, we
> should be more worried about why it costs so much to live here?
The Red Chinese are LOSING manufacturing jobs. They LOST 15,000 last year.
In fact, almost EVERYONE worldwide is losing manufacturing jobs. As Robert
Reich has pointed out, computerization, and robotization are the culprits.
Consider something.
If a highly robotized factory can produce a widget for a total cost of $100,
then it doesn't matter what, a low-tech factory making widgets, too, maybe
employing a hundred people CANNOT charge more than a $100. So the total
labor costs are effectively capped. The ONLY way to increase an
individual's wage, is at the expense of some other worker. Thus, a worker
may be making two dollars a day, but they'll probably be making $2 a day
twenty years from now.
IF the robotized factory, through some type of innovation, reduces the cost
of widgets to $75 each, the low-tech factory again, either reduces cost or
closes it doors. It's MUCH harder, using Taylorization techniques, to
institute innovations. (Taylor was an "effiency expert", that advanced the
idea of lots of people doing one small part, each, of a given manufacturing
process. Thus, on the early mass produced cars, there was one guy to screw
on the left side of a bumper and one guy to screw on the right side of the
bumper. They didn't have to do much, but they didn't have long to do it
either.
Dr. Walter Shewhart developed a set of statisical formulas that measured
efficiency of entire systems. Thus, incremental increases in efficiency
could be demostrated mathematically. Dr. Edward Deming "marketed" those
ideas. And in 1953, he began marketing those ideas in post-war Japan. In
the 50's and 60's, "made in Japan" mean "cheap" and shoddy. But by the
mid-1980's the Japanese car manufacturer's could challenge the Big Three US
manufacturers on their own turf. With vehicles that were demonstrably
superior in design and manufacture. The SPC (statistical process control)
movement was re-introduced into America...and it was a painful process.
I would argue, by the early 90's the US manufacturers were making
significant strides, and I seriously doubt there is significant differences
in the overall quality of almost any vehicles manufactured worldwide, today.
This of course, does include specific innovations introduced by different
car makers, from time to time. (BTW, I just got an eMail from someone.
They said the Ford Escort was the largest selling vehicle worldwide, for
several years. I have no idea if that is true.) It, also, does not
preclude a particular manufacturer producing a stinker, from time to time.
James...
I too have been to China to visit manufacturing facilities. The workers
I have talked to are earning 30 cents an hour. Even if our minimum wage
was only $3.00 an hour, they would still be earning only %10 of an
American wage earner of minimum wage. So I don't know if the minimum
wage is the ONLY reason. Maybe the lack of an OSHA counterpart, and
healthcare are contributing.
SteveC1280 wrote:
> Hi Charlie,
>
> I'm a long time reader, occasional contributor to the WREC. I submit that you
> are wrong and I am right about the minimum wage jobs going to China. I am
> going back to China this Sunday for the second time in a month. Without going
> into great detail, I visit production factories in China that used to be in the
> USA. 90% of the people who work there are doing the manual labor that
> Americans used to do. More and more companies are moving jobs to China because
> of our minimum wage, out-of-control health care costs, etc. What really scares
> me is the new trend to move high-end jobs, like engineering and software to
> China and now India.
>
>>
>>
>>
> Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
> >The cost of living is much, much lower in China. It just doesn't cost
> >nearly as much to live there as it does here, that's why they can
> >afford to live on a much lower wage.
> >
> >Maybe instead of complaining about how little they get paid there, we
> >should be more worried about why it costs so much to live here?
>
> We just spent 87 billion dollars of our tax dollars on nothing.
I thought we spent it on plywood?
-Jack
Andy Dingley wrote:
>> Adapt or die.
>
> I have no intention of "adapting" to a new skillset.
> I _invent_ the new skillsets.
>
> A local research lab is currently working on triple stores for RDF
> (what you use when you realise XML doesn't work). The prototypes they
> have are still very inefficient and damned slow on large datasets. One
> day they'll notice that one of the patents I left there three years
> ago solves a useful piece of this. ( Or maybe the whole company will
> fold first. )
(100% honest) Best of luck to you!
-- Mark
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:33:06 GMT, "@sbc(nospam)global.net"
<""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote:
>I too have been to China to visit manufacturing facilities. The workers
>I have talked to are earning 30 cents an hour. Even if our minimum wage
>was only $3.00 an hour, they would still be earning only %10 of an
>American wage earner of minimum wage. So I don't know if the minimum
>wage is the ONLY reason. Maybe the lack of an OSHA counterpart, and
>healthcare are contributing.
The cost of living is much, much lower in China. It just doesn't cost
nearly as much to live there as it does here, that's why they can
afford to live on a much lower wage.
Maybe instead of complaining about how little they get paid there, we
should be more worried about why it costs so much to live here?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:43:21 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Adapt or die.
I have no intention of "adapting" to a new skillset.
I _invent_ the new skillsets.
A local research lab is currently working on triple stores for RDF
(what you use when you realise XML doesn't work). The prototypes they
have are still very inefficient and damned slow on large datasets. One
day they'll notice that one of the patents I left there three years
ago solves a useful piece of this. ( Or maybe the whole company will
fold first. )
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:43:21 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Once upon a time I was a super-expert (IMHO <g>) on xBASE, especially on
>combination DOS / UNIX development and implementation. I was the lead on
>one project that literally took xBASE to its design limits in the call
>stack. I architected and implemented a data-dictionary based directory
>crawler that would update database versions overnight. (Extremely necessary
>when developing systems whilst data entry people were typing in data. <g>)
>
>Then Microsoft released MS Access 1.0 for $99.00. Literally overnight, I
>saw all my hard-won
> SET EXCLUSIVE ON
>skills had gone the way of the horse and buggy.
>
>Adapt or die.
Ha, another fellow victim. I was the resident Clipper programmer at a
shop in Atlanta. Wrote xBase Clipper code for a service managment
application that was multi-user/workstation with nested gets (!) and
tons of assembly UDFs. Thousands of hours of work reduced to
worthlessness in less than a year. The only advantage at this point
is that it will run on all those old 386s lining the landfills. :-|
Greg
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:24:38 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:12:30 GMT, Brian Henderson
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Maybe instead of complaining about how little they get paid there, we
>>should be more worried about why it costs so much to live here?
>
>We just spent 87 billion dollars of our tax dollars on nothing.
We do that constantly, thanks to the asshole in the oval office.
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:43:21 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Andy Dingley wrote:
>
>> I'm an unemployed UK IT guy. _My_ job didn't go to India, but I used
>> to write software that was used by people in UK call centres. As their
>> jobs went to India (and they surely are going), there was no longer a
>> need for people like me in the UK.
>
>Once upon a time I was a super-expert (IMHO <g>) on xBASE, especially on
>combination DOS / UNIX development and implementation. I was the lead on
>one project that literally took xBASE to its design limits in the call
>stack. I architected and implemented a data-dictionary based directory
>crawler that would update database versions overnight. (Extremely necessary
>when developing systems whilst data entry people were typing in data. <g>)
>
>Then Microsoft released MS Access 1.0 for $99.00. Literally overnight, I
>saw all my hard-won
> SET EXCLUSIVE ON
>skills had gone the way of the horse and buggy.
>
>Adapt or die.
>
>Currently, I'm closer to dying than adapting, but I'm trying... <g>
>
> -- Mark
>
And then they had a competitor, Mark...FoxPro...who they quickly
bought out.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:25:58 -0500, "RKON"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I work selling
>software and all of my clients are moving their IT staff over to India,
>China and Phillipines.
I'm an unemployed UK IT guy. _My_ job didn't go to India, but I used
to write software that was used by people in UK call centres. As their
jobs went to India (and they surely are going), there was no longer a
need for people like me in the UK.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Mark Jerde wrote:
> I have yet to realize the way in which I can add sufficient value to the
> human race to derive the income I wish to receive, but believe me, I'm
> working on it. You can't sit around and wish for things to be as they
> used to be!
All of this makes me feel a little better that I didn't go into CS, I must
admit. Though I guess it would be nice to have some of that money in the
bank. Most of my friends went on to earn huge bucks, but they're probably
all unemployed now, and all of them had to flit off to the four corners of
America to find those jobs.
Me, I stayed right here. Majored in foreign languages, which has never
earned me a penny, and I drive a truck to provide my societal value and pay
for my house. The up side is that I'm no worse off for the big crash, but
the down side is that my body's beat all to hell at 31, and I feel very
old. My knees and wrists are fighting to see which one is going to put me
out of work first. I may end up like the rest of you not long off once
something finally blows out.
Then I guess I'll have to go back to Plan B and take up being an internet
pornographer. All I need is a digital camcorder and a buncha gorgeous
20-year-old college chicks. They'll have to be on top, because of my
knees. SWMBO can hold the camera. This should go over real well once I
tell her my plan. After she cuts my penis off, I can go on disability.
LOL!
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>Greed is a portion of the equation. Consumers DEMAND low prices. Are you
>willing to pay a higher price for USA made goods? Put a Brand X saw from
>USA and one from China side by side. Only difference is the price tag, the
>US made is $100 more. Make your choice. Just read this newsgroup about
I had a Crescent wrench in one hand for $18 and a Husky wrench in the
other hand for $10. The Husky was better because it was polished. I
bought the Crescent simply because it is made in the USA.
Brian Elfert
Here is a somewhat fascinating article on manufacturing moving
overseas, with a (large) dash of Christmas consumerism. Note the
different manufacturing standards and therefore prices between US
market and elsewhere.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14763-2003Nov8.html
Renata
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:22:45 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:56:02 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I have only one bench grinder in my shop, mostly for sharpening lawn
>>mower blades. It's a 3/4HP, costs $28, and made in China. Really
>>cheap, been running for years, and useful. I doubt the USA could make
>>them that cheap.
>
>Probably not. Your neighbors want to make enough to live.
>The US Gov. won't allow US MFGs to dump PCBs and motor varnishes into
>the river, require safety measure in the plant, and regulate hours and
>pay rates.
>
>Mexico and China don't care. They just dump the dead workers bodies
>into the Rio Grand along with the medical waste, trash, and dead
>animals.
>
>They also, and most importantly, don't have heards of avaricious
>lawyers.
>
>Greg
>
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> <BRuce> wrote in message news:1068494853.663258@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
>>minimum wage has nothing to do with offshore jobs, just greed, plain ole
>>Merican greed.
>
> Greed is a portion of the equation. Consumers DEMAND low prices. Are you
> willing to pay a higher price for USA made goods?
I would if the product was in fact superior, however most are not. Yup,
I know I'm adding to the overall problem too.
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:56:02 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have only one bench grinder in my shop, mostly for sharpening lawn
>mower blades. It's a 3/4HP, costs $28, and made in China. Really
>cheap, been running for years, and useful. I doubt the USA could make
>them that cheap.
Probably not. Your neighbors want to make enough to live.
The US Gov. won't allow US MFGs to dump PCBs and motor varnishes into
the river, require safety measure in the plant, and regulate hours and
pay rates.
Mexico and China don't care. They just dump the dead workers bodies
into the Rio Grand along with the medical waste, trash, and dead
animals.
They also, and most importantly, don't have heards of avaricious
lawyers.
Greg
On 10 Nov 2003 22:44:41 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>Greed is a portion of the equation. Consumers DEMAND low prices. Are you
>>willing to pay a higher price for USA made goods? Put a Brand X saw from
>>USA and one from China side by side. Only difference is the price tag, the
>>US made is $100 more. Make your choice. Just read this newsgroup about
>
>I had a Crescent wrench in one hand for $18 and a Husky wrench in the
>other hand for $10. The Husky was better because it was polished. I
>bought the Crescent simply because it is made in the USA.
>
>Brian Elfert
Made?...or assembled?
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
<BRuce> wrote in message news:1068494853.663258@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
> minimum wage has nothing to do with offshore jobs, just greed, plain ole
> Merican greed.
>
> BRuce
Greed is a portion of the equation. Consumers DEMAND low prices. Are you
willing to pay a higher price for USA made goods? Put a Brand X saw from
USA and one from China side by side. Only difference is the price tag, the
US made is $100 more. Make your choice. Just read this newsgroup about
tools and see the questions about getting the best deal or lowest price.
Back in the 80's when PCs were hitting the home market, a keyboard made in
the US was about $130. Today you can get one made overseas for $10.
At work I just bought 2 containers of material from Korea. I saved the
company about $8000. Am I greedy? No, because my competitors are doing the
same thing and pricing the final product accordingly, not making greater (if
any!) profit from it. If I did not do so, we'd be out of business in six
months.
Ed
Ed Pawlowski writes:
>
>Back in the 80's when PCs were hitting the home market, a keyboard made in
>the US was about $130. Today you can get one made overseas for $10.
Yeah. I've got one of those. I use the Microsoft shaped keyboard. Bought one of
the first ones out for a total of just a shade under 100 bucks. When it started
getting a little iffy, I went looking and found a similar keyboard...or so I
was told. That was about 30 bucks. At this point, I'm using the old keyboard,
cleaning it often, even though the keys still stick enough to screw up my
typing.
Greed is not a component, nor is a desire to save money on important
components. I'd GLADLY pay the same for another keyboard like this one. Even a
bit more. Forget it. They no longer exist and probably haven't for several
years.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Ed Pawlowski writes:
>
>>
>>Back in the 80's when PCs were hitting the home market, a keyboard
>>made in the US was about $130. Today you can get one made overseas for
>>$10.
>
> Yeah. I've got one of those. I use the Microsoft shaped keyboard.
> Bought one of the first ones out for a total of just a shade under 100
> bucks. When it started getting a little iffy, I went looking and found
> a similar keyboard...or so I was told. That was about 30 bucks. At
> this point, I'm using the old keyboard, cleaning it often, even though
> the keys still stick enough to screw up my typing.
>
> Greed is not a component, nor is a desire to save money on important
> components. I'd GLADLY pay the same for another keyboard like this
> one. Even a bit more. Forget it. They no longer exist and probably
> haven't for several years.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/
Manny Davis responds:
>I'd GLADLY pay the same for another keyboard like this
>> one. Even a bit more. Forget it. They no longer exist and probably
>> haven't for several years.
>
>http://www.pckeyboard.com/
Unfortunately, they seem to have everything but. What I'm talking about is the
Microsoft Natural keyboard, with the two splits in the keys that let your
wrists arch more naturally.
Helps reduce my carpal tunnel symptoms...and I've been using it so long, it's a
PITA to use a straight keyboard now.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
>I absolutely detest Microsoft, but I have to admit that this has been an
>excellent keyboard. I was bored and counted my lifetime usenet achievement
>awhile back, and came up with around 18,000 messages. If you figure an
>average of only 100 words per message, and five letters and a space per
>word (both low, since I write big messages with lots of twenty dollar
>college boy words), that's 10,800,000 keystrokes just for usenet posting
>alone.
>
>Yup. Made in USA.
funny... I turned my natural keyboard over, and "Made in Mexico"
d hamann notes:
>I absolutely detest Microsoft, but I have to admit that this has been an
>>excellent keyboard. I was bored and counted my lifetime usenet achievement
>>awhile back, and came up with around 18,000 messages. If you figure an
>>average of only 100 words per message, and five letters and a space per
>>word (both low, since I write big messages with lots of twenty dollar
>>college boy words), that's 10,800,000 keystrokes just for usenet posting
>>alone.
>>
>>Yup. Made in USA.
>
>funny... I turned my natural keyboard over, and "Made in Mexico"
How old is it, and how heavy is it? Mine is one of the originals, made in the
U.S., and my wife's is one I can't used it's so light (about 1/3 the weight of
this monster). Dunno where it was made, but it's only 2-3 years old, so
probably elsewhere.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
>>funny... I turned my natural keyboard over, and "Made in Mexico"
>
>How old is it, and how heavy is it? Mine is one of the originals, made in the
>U.S., and my wife's is one I can't used it's so light (about 1/3 the weight of
>this monster). Dunno where it was made, but it's only 2-3 years old, so
>probably elsewhere.
I bought it in '97, so it's still the original design. They probably
moved production down there sometime in the 90's.
Have you tried their Trackball Explorer, perchance? I think it tries
to phone home once an hour and gets annoyed when it can't get out (and
that's only one of it's "issues").
I'm partially to the ole made in the USA IBM keyboards.
Renata
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:01:17 GMT, [email protected] (D) wrote:
>I have too many problems with their software. But for hardware
>(keyboards, mice, ...) MS has a good reputation.
Charlie Self wrote:
> How old is it, and how heavy is it? Mine is one of the originals, made in
> the U.S., and my wife's is one I can't used it's so light (about 1/3 the
I got mine in '91 I think. It was hella expensive, but worth every penny.
Probably the only time I will *ever* say that about a M$ product.
I wouldn't characterize it as being "heavy" though. It's pretty much a
featherweight compared to my old keyboard. *That* one still works too, and
has all mechanical switches, but I can't use a straight keyboard anymore.
My wrists scream bloody murder after about five minutes.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Charlie Self wrote:
> Unfortunately, they seem to have everything but. What I'm talking about is
> the Microsoft Natural keyboard, with the two splits in the keys that let
> your wrists arch more naturally.
>
> Helps reduce my carpal tunnel symptoms...and I've been using it so long,
> it's a PITA to use a straight keyboard now.
What, yours is busted? I have a knockoff that's similar except they put the
6 on the wrong side of the split, and the backslash is in a stupid place.
Other than the minor inconvenience, it's a pretty solid keyboard. I have
it on my son's computer, but he never uses it. I'd be happy to send it
your way if you need it. Dad gave it to me a long time ago, and I've been
hanging onto it mostly as a spare in case my own Natural keyboard kicks the
bucket. Thing is so old that most of the letters are worn off.
I absolutely detest Microsoft, but I have to admit that this has been an
excellent keyboard. I was bored and counted my lifetime usenet achievement
awhile back, and came up with around 18,000 messages. If you figure an
average of only 100 words per message, and five letters and a space per
word (both low, since I write big messages with lots of twenty dollar
college boy words), that's 10,800,000 keystrokes just for usenet posting
alone.
Yup. Made in USA.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Silvan asks:
>> Unfortunately, they seem to have everything but. What I'm talking about is
>> the Microsoft Natural keyboard, with the two splits in the keys that let
>> your wrists arch more naturally.
>>
>> Helps reduce my carpal tunnel symptoms...and I've been using it so long,
>> it's a PITA to use a straight keyboard now.
>
>What, yours is busted? I have a knockoff that's similar except they put the
>6 on the wrong side of the split, and the backslash is in a stupid place.
>Other than the minor inconvenience, it's a pretty solid keyboard. I have
>it on my son's computer, but he never uses it. I'd be happy to send it
>your way if you need it. Dad gave it to me a long time ago, and I've been
>hanging onto it mostly as a spare in case my own Natural keyboard kicks the
>bucket. Thing is so old that most of the letters are worn off.
I've got a couple replacements. Problem is, they're all about 1/3 the weight of
the old version so with my typing technique they tend to dance around.
>f you figure an
>average of only 100 words per message, and five letters and a space per
>word (both low, since I write big messages with lots of twenty dollar
>college boy words), that's 10,800,000 keystrokes just for usenet posting
>alone.
>
>Yup. Made in USA.
One thing you learn when writing for a living is only use the long words when
short ones absolutely will not do. That basically means you almost never use
the long words. Took me a couple years to get over a degree in English, but
that was back when I was about your age. I haven't got any idea how much key
clicking has been done on this keyboard, but I've written 3-4 books and dozens,
possibly hundreds, of magazine articles, several tool manuals and a lot of
other things, plus correspondence on and off line for the 6 years I've had it.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:24:53 GMT, [email protected] (D) wrote:
>funny... I turned my natural keyboard over, and "Made in Mexico"
My Logitech is made in Thailand.
On 10 Nov 2003 21:26:33 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Greed is not a component, nor is a desire to save money on important
>components. I'd GLADLY pay the same for another keyboard like this one. Even a
>bit more. Forget it. They no longer exist and probably haven't for several
>years.
Same here...
Don't laugh - I am using a genuine Heath/Zenith keyboard with real
American switches made in the 80s for the US Government military.
I have to modify the BIOS in every new system I build, 'cause it won't
work with each progression in speed - even though it 'should'.
You can't BUY that quality anymore. You have the choice of really
bad, or mediocre - whether made here or overseas.
Greg
Not much these days. Cheaper labor overseas and rising costs across the board
in the USA take care of that. Every country goes through this to a certain
extent. From agricultural, to industrial, and I suppose now service or
information. Same thing's happening to Japan and even Taiwan. If it helps any,
US companies are probably making more money, it's just going to the execs and
owners.
I like to buy US when I can, but it's not a huge deal for me as long as it's a
good product. I've had Chinese and Taiwanese no-name tools that were beyond
useless, and then a lot of my nice Porter-Cable and Milwaukee stuff is made in
the same places. My DeWalt cordless drills are USA with Japanese batteries.
Buy used if you want really nice stuff. Old Delta, P'matic, and General iron is
a good value.
GTO(John)
>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
>I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
>current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
>nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
>and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
>Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
>you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
>stayed on the shelf.
>
>Brian Elfert
I found this interesting, from an article by Robert Reich....
America has been losing manufacturing jobs to China, Latin America and the rest
of the developing world. Right? Well, not quite. It turns out that
manufacturing jobs have been disappearing all over the world. Economists at
Alliance Capital Management in New York took a close look at employment trends
in 20 large economies recently, and found that since 1995 more than 22 million
factory jobs have disppeared.
In fact, the United States has not even been the biggest loser. Between 1995
and 2002, we lost about 11 percent of our manufacturing jobs. But over the same
period, the Japanese lost 16 percent of theirs. And get this: Many developing
nations are losing factory jobs. During those same years, Brazil suffered a 20
percent decline.
Hereâs the real surprise. China saw a 15 percent drop. China, which is fast
becoming the manufacturing capital of the world, has been losing millions of
factory jobs.
see the whole thing at:
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9322
to e-mail, remove 'nojunk' from e-mail address
Well, I don't consider it meaningless.
When it's feasible, I will choose to reward a company that keeps jobs
in the US and puts dollars in the pockets of American workers over one
that lays off Americans and exports the jobs to China or wherever to
save a buck (and probably put that buck into the CEO's pocket).
This doesn't mean I'll but a crappy product just because it bears a
Made in America label. But it does mean that I'll try to avoid buying
a foreign-made product just because it's a few dollars cheaper. Now
that I know PC and Makita (both of whom have good reputations for
quality) make their tools in America, I'll tend to favor them over,
say, DeWalt who doesn't. If that means I pay a few dollars more, I
for one am willing to do that.
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:32:04 -0500, Bob Haar <[email protected]>
wrote:
>This whole discussion is quite meaningless. What we should do is be informed
>consumers and look for quality and value in whatever we buy, no matter whot
>he manufacturer is or whether the company is based in the US or not.
-- jc
Published e-mail is strictly for spam collection.
To e-mail me, use jc631 at optonline dot net
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:36:26 -0700, Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net>
wrote:
>Not many, costs too much to produce them here, plus, if you make a tool
>to last a long time then you can't sell many of them. Have you noted
>that cars last until you make your last payment, then fall to pieces?
Depends on the car.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:19:41 -0500, "RKON"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
>gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America. So
>it isn't the American worker.
No, it's upper management. Here, they're all making millions of
dollars and so long as the company doesn't go out of business (and in
some cases, they don't care if it does), they'll go as cheaply and
simply as they can.
In Japan, they want a quality product and manufacturers often go above
and beyond the call of duty to give it to them.
On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
<snip>
Not much...
I was shocked to find my Dewalt cordless screwdriver (Christmas
present) was made in China. And my $500 jointer, etc., etc.
You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
For many years I refused to buy Chinese crap, but the stores kept
filling up with more and more of it - it's hard to stem the tide of
consumers who don't give a crap - until THEIR jobs disappear. Most
are oblivious to this trend occurring. They select products on price
and packaging alone - and a year later, when it is lining the local
landfill, line up at the local Target to buy more...
There are still the industrial MFGs, but I haven't actually checked
lately that a Wilton DP or other such brands are still made in the
USA. Most heavy iron work seems to be coming from Eastern Europe and
China these days. It's a trend that is overwhelming. First we built
Japan into a world empire, then Taiwan, South Korea, and now China.
And my personal standard of living is nowhere close to what my dad
maintained. Our boom industries are insurance fraud (chiropractors
and lawyers) and prisons.
JMHO,
Greg
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:28:37 +0000, mrdancer wrote:
>
> >
> > Maybe because some vehicles raise insurance rates and fuel prices for
> > everyone?
> >
> > Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able to
get
> > us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five miles
from
> > the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it seems like
> > most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets without
an
> > SUV.
> >
> > SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ
>
> Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?
Well, since there was 23 years span among us 14 kids, there usually wasn't
more than a half dozen of us that needed to be anywhere off the farm at one
time.
Besides, we didn't worry about safety (we grew up on a farm, one of the most
dangerous occupations in the world). We didn't really know or care what
seatbelts were. In 1978 my Dad got a 'town' truck that we could drive into
town. He put a topper on it and hauled a bunch of us in the back of that
when we went to town.
Living in muddy hilly river country, we got our first 4wd truck in 1984,
although we never had much problem getting around in the snow with 2wd.
That's kinda why I laugh at what so many people 'think' they need. They too
often confuse want with need.
Btw, I wear my seatbelt religiously these days. I don't even think about it
when I put it on - it's pure habit. I just feel naked without it.
"Brush Guards" have saved my life, and the lives of a couple of my
co-workers by taking the impact of a deer, and, as the upper bar projects
outward beyond the lower, pushing the corpse underneath the ambulance rather
than allowing it to join me in the seat. I have also entered vehicles
where the former operator and the unwanted passenger were virtually
indistinguishable bloody parts.
Oh yes - one was a Volkswagen.
"Juergen Hannappel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> It's because the typical SUV convez the message (especially if
> equipped with "reinforcement bars" at the front): "I dont't care what
> happens to the people that i crash my extra heavy car into, as long as
> my laquer doesn't get scratched"
> Especially if the SUV's aggessive apearance is heightened by black
> paint or military background (like a hummer or jeep) it makes people
> want to fire a bozooka at it.
>
> --
> Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
> mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
> Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
> CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23
Mike wrote:
> The other gripe is that many of these dip-shits are
> overwhelmed by the vehicle's size, as demonstrated by their inability
> to park or carry out a U-turn. If somebody has trouble parking a
> Camry, why the heck are they buying an Excursion?
To push Camrys out of the way.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:28:37 +0000, mrdancer wrote:
>
> Maybe because some vehicles raise insurance rates and fuel prices for
> everyone?
>
> Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able to get
> us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five miles from
> the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it seems like
> most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets without an
> SUV.
>
> SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ
Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?
-Doug
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
> : responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
> : Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
> : mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
> : offerings.
>
> The car mfgs are exploiting a loophole in the law, under
> which SUVs are classified as farm vehicles, and thus not
> subject to the safety and mileage regulations cars are under.
>
> How exactly is this the result of "the same
> people" doing anything?
>
Those "same people" were the ones who pushed so hard for the
imposition of mileage standards across all elements of car
manufacturers' product lines. The fact there was a loophole provided a
means for people to actually get what they wanted (I know, that's a
foreign and detestable concept to most statists), thus the growth of the
SUV's popularity. Had the CAFE standards not been so draconian, the
station wagon would have survived as a viable and popular product
offering, the SUV would never have become so popular -- law of
unintended consequences.
>
> :However, people still had things they needed to haul that
> : required more than an econobox.
>
> Unh huh. That explains all the single-rider
> SUVs we see on Tucson's roads. Hauling a coupla bags
> of groceries home from Safeway.
>
... and you see each and every use to which those people put those
SUV's. The fact they may be hauling a few bags of groceries when you
see them doesn't mean they aren't hauling a car load of kids and soccer
equipment some other time. Most folks don't buy a car for every task,
but pick the one that fits the total of all tasks to which they intend
to put it. But then, you knew that.
> The idea that most SUVs are used mostly for hauling
> heavy loads is a sad little fantasy.
>
> -- Andy Barss
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> > > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:37:55 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Seems she thought she was in something car like she was driving a car.
> > > >Wound up on her top twice.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is what caused some manufacturers to lower, widen, and install
> > > independent suspension on SUV's ("New" Explorer, Trail Blazer,
> > > etc...), ruining the semi-able off-road performance they actually had.
> > > <G>
> > >
> > > The funny thing is, AWD minivans have been around for a long time,
> > > which combines great load space with go in bad weather traction.
> > > Unfortunately, they just aren't stylish enough at the soccer field.
> > >
> >
> > nice attempt at condescension. Funny thing is AWD minivans aren't
> > built on a truck body. I live off of an unimproved road -- it gets
> > graded twice a year whether it needs it or not. When we looked to
> > replace our Ford Explorer, we considered a minivan, but after having
> > driven a minivan owned by a friend, we determined that there was no way
> > such a vehicle would hold up for the long haul on our roads. On the
> > other hand, since SUV's are built on a truck chassis, they are more
> > likely to provide long-term service in this kind of environment.
> >
> > It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
> > choose to drive.
>
> Maybe because some vehicles raise insurance rates and fuel prices for
> everyone?
yeah, right.
>
> Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able to get
> us around to everything in a station wagon.
Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
offerings. However, people still had things they needed to haul that
required more than an econobox.
> > Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able
to get
> > us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five miles
from
> > the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it seems
like
> > most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets
without an
> > SUV.
> >
> > SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ
>
> Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?
>
> -Doug
3 in the front, 3 in the middle, 3 in the back and 4 to push it through
the snow.
Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>
> nice attempt at condescension.
Your the exception.
Maybe it's because you live in the sticks that you don't get to see how
many SUVs are sold to people who would think your unimproved road an
extreme off road experience.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:37:55 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Seems she thought she was in something car like she was driving a car.
> > >Wound up on her top twice.
> >
> >
> > This is what caused some manufacturers to lower, widen, and install
> > independent suspension on SUV's ("New" Explorer, Trail Blazer,
> > etc...), ruining the semi-able off-road performance they actually had.
> > <G>
> >
> > The funny thing is, AWD minivans have been around for a long time,
> > which combines great load space with go in bad weather traction.
> > Unfortunately, they just aren't stylish enough at the soccer field.
> >
>
> nice attempt at condescension. Funny thing is AWD minivans aren't
> built on a truck body. I live off of an unimproved road -- it gets
> graded twice a year whether it needs it or not. When we looked to
> replace our Ford Explorer, we considered a minivan, but after having
> driven a minivan owned by a friend, we determined that there was no way
> such a vehicle would hold up for the long haul on our roads. On the
> other hand, since SUV's are built on a truck chassis, they are more
> likely to provide long-term service in this kind of environment.
only some suv's are made on a truck chassis. a lot of the newer ones are
built on car frames.
> It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
> choose to drive.
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
: Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
: responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
: Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
: mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
: offerings.
The car mfgs are exploiting a loophole in the law, under
which SUVs are classified as farm vehicles, and thus not
subject to the safety and mileage regulations cars are under.
How exactly is this the result of "the same
people" doing anything?
:However, people still had things they needed to haul that
: required more than an econobox.
Unh huh. That explains all the single-rider
SUVs we see on Tucson's roads. Hauling a coupla bags
of groceries home from Safeway.
The idea that most SUVs are used mostly for hauling
heavy loads is a sad little fantasy.
-- Andy Barss
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:37:55 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Seems she thought she was in something car like she was driving a car.
> >Wound up on her top twice.
>
>
> This is what caused some manufacturers to lower, widen, and install
> independent suspension on SUV's ("New" Explorer, Trail Blazer,
> etc...), ruining the semi-able off-road performance they actually had.
> <G>
>
> The funny thing is, AWD minivans have been around for a long time,
> which combines great load space with go in bad weather traction.
> Unfortunately, they just aren't stylish enough at the soccer field.
>
nice attempt at condescension. Funny thing is AWD minivans aren't
built on a truck body. I live off of an unimproved road -- it gets
graded twice a year whether it needs it or not. When we looked to
replace our Ford Explorer, we considered a minivan, but after having
driven a minivan owned by a friend, we determined that there was no way
such a vehicle would hold up for the long haul on our roads. On the
other hand, since SUV's are built on a truck chassis, they are more
likely to provide long-term service in this kind of environment.
It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
choose to drive.
Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
> >
> >
> > nice attempt at condescension.
>
>
> Your the exception.
>
> Maybe it's because you live in the sticks that you don't get to see how
> many SUVs are sold to people who would think your unimproved road an
> extreme off road experience.
I think the problem is that, as more and more people purchase utility
vehicles expecting them to drive like cars, the manufacturers will
sacrifice real utility features in lieu of making them drive more
car-like and we'll end up with grossly over-sized station wagons or El
Caminos. The other gripe is that many of these dip-shits are
overwhelmed by the vehicle's size, as demonstrated by their inability
to park or carry out a U-turn. If somebody has trouble parking a
Camry, why the heck are they buying an Excursion?
Cheers,
Mike
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
> choose to drive.
Personally, I can't stand them because most people who drive them are
grossly unqualified to handle a vehicle that large and unwieldy. They also
tend to bring out the worst in people, and I see people taking foolish,
dangerous chances all the time.
In my opinion, formulated by years of driving thousands of miles every week,
SUVs are in a class by themselves in terms of the danger they present to
themselves, to other SUVs, and to everyone else on the road. They're
followed closely by those little asshole generation X hotrods, and then by
crotch rockets. Ironically, some of the very safest, most conservative and
courteous drivers on the road are piloting Corvettes and Vipers.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:37:55 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Seems she thought she was in something car like she was driving a car.
>Wound up on her top twice.
This is what caused some manufacturers to lower, widen, and install
independent suspension on SUV's ("New" Explorer, Trail Blazer,
etc...), ruining the semi-able off-road performance they actually had.
<G>
The funny thing is, AWD minivans have been around for a long time,
which combines great load space with go in bad weather traction.
Unfortunately, they just aren't stylish enough at the soccer field.
This past summer I was picking up an over-sand permit on Cape Cod. I
witnessed the world's stupidest argument between a US Parks Service
Ranger and a woman with an SUV. The woman was SCREAMING, the ranger
was remarkably calm.
Woman: _WHY_ can't I buy a permit?
Ranger: Your vehicle is 2WD.
Woman: But I can see other Grand Cherokee's moving toward the beach
Ranger: They have 4WD
Woman: But _I_ have a Grand Cherokee!
Ranger: Your's is 2WD
Woman: You sold permits to THOSE GC's!
Ranger: They have 4WD
Repeat for almost 30 minutes, with lawsuit threats, etc.
Conversation ends when Ranger's supervisor threatens to arrest woman
for disturbing the peace. <G>
Barry
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:37:55 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Seems she thought she was in something car like she was driving a car.
> > >Wound up on her top twice.
> >
> >
> > This is what caused some manufacturers to lower, widen, and install
> > independent suspension on SUV's ("New" Explorer, Trail Blazer,
> > etc...), ruining the semi-able off-road performance they actually had.
> > <G>
> >
> > The funny thing is, AWD minivans have been around for a long time,
> > which combines great load space with go in bad weather traction.
> > Unfortunately, they just aren't stylish enough at the soccer field.
> >
>
> nice attempt at condescension. Funny thing is AWD minivans aren't
> built on a truck body. I live off of an unimproved road -- it gets
> graded twice a year whether it needs it or not. When we looked to
> replace our Ford Explorer, we considered a minivan, but after having
> driven a minivan owned by a friend, we determined that there was no way
> such a vehicle would hold up for the long haul on our roads. On the
> other hand, since SUV's are built on a truck chassis, they are more
> likely to provide long-term service in this kind of environment.
>
> It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
> choose to drive.
Maybe because some vehicles raise insurance rates and fuel prices for
everyone?
Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able to get
us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five miles from
the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it seems like
most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets without an
SUV.
SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> mrdancer wrote:
>
> > Our farm was five
> > miles from the highway, subject to South Dakota winters.
>
> East or west river? ;-) My brother & family are south of Reva, 6 miles
from
> their next-door neighbor.
West River. Gregory County - pheasant capital of the world. ;-)
Here's a funny true story. When I was going to college at SDSU, I had a
classmate from Minnesota. One day he asked me where the town of West River
was. I said 'huh?'. He said that a lot of people he has asked where they
are from, reply 'West River'. He'd spent all night looking at a map of
South Dakota trying to find the town of 'West River'!
On 14-Nov-2003, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
> responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
> Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
> mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
> offerings. However, people still had things they needed to haul that
> required more than an econobox.
Interesting hypothesis. Problem is that vans used to be a fad and have
always been outside the CAFE standards that you cite. They could have
bought vans instead of SUVs or station wagons.
The real reason is that SUVs are a fad. Nothing more, nothing less.
People buy them, so they make them. Utility, practicality, safety
etc have nothing to do with it. Just like pet rocks, frisbees,
hula-hoops etc. They will go away when the next fad kicks in. Only
those who need them will continue to buy them.
Mike
Mike Daly responds:
>> Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
>> responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
>> Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
>> mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
>> offerings. However, people still had things they needed to haul that
>> required more than an econobox.
>
>Interesting hypothesis. Problem is that vans used to be a fad and have
>always been outside the CAFE standards that you cite. They could have
>bought vans instead of SUVs or station wagons.
And minivans were always a perfect replacement for station wagons with more
space, more easily rearranged.
I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't be
hauled as easily in a minivan: I'm sure there's something, but I jsut can't
think of what it might be offhand.
>The real reason is that SUVs are a fad. Nothing more, nothing less.
>People buy them, so they make them. Utility, practicality, safety
>etc have nothing to do with it. Just like pet rocks, frisbees,
>hula-hoops etc. They will go away when the next fad kicks in. Only
>those who need them will continue to buy them.
Yeah, well...almost everyone I know with a SUV bought it because it's "cool,"
which is probably one of the stupidest reasons (and one we all fall for) to buy
anything other than an air conditioner.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
Mark wrote:
>> I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't
>> be hauled as easily in a minivan:
> Ass.
Yes, quite. The thing they seem to have in common is that they have
absolutely no ass whatsoever. The damn things just won't pull a hill at
all. I pass them all the time going up mountains in a tractor-trailer.
I guess part of the problem is that people don't know how to drive them. I
can get up hills with Dad's anemic minivan a lot better than most because I
know when to punch it. Even so, it'll be doing way below the speed limit
by the top. The power to weight ratio just sucks royally.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
In article <[email protected]>, Unisaw A100
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Then it hit me like a bolt of
> lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
> about it.
As useful an economic theory as any I've ever come across.
djb
--
There are no socks in my email address.
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
In article
<[email protected]>,
Michael Daly <[email protected]> wrote:
> Since when is USA self sufficient in oil?
The USA imports as much energy from us (Canada) as from the middle east.
Self sufficient Uncle Sam ain't...
djb
--
There are no socks in my email address.
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
Silvan responds:
>
>>> I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't
>>> be hauled as easily in a minivan:
>
>> Ass.
>
>Yes, quite. The thing they seem to have in common is that they have
>absolutely no ass whatsoever. The damn things just won't pull a hill at
>all. I pass them all the time going up mountains in a tractor-trailer.
>
>I guess part of the problem is that people don't know how to drive them. I
>can get up hills with Dad's anemic minivan a lot better than most because I
>know when to punch it. Even so, it'll be doing way below the speed limit
>by the top. The power to weight ratio just sucks royally.
>
On some. On others, like my SIL's Chrysler with a peppy V6, it just blows up
the local mountains (around your area, though admittedly he does spend more
time running towards Charlottesville) even with a load of kids and their junk.
As with most other vehicles, there are engine options, as there were with
station wagons.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
Ever so often I like to mull this one over. Not that I
particularly care (I don't really (OK I do but I'm jaded))
but it gives me something to do between the trips to the
drive-up windows. Anyway, it certainly appears that maybe
we don't have a whole lot of say anymore. Like for
instance,
Let's say I take my hard earned dollars ('Murican money
David) and we take it to Jet/Powermatic/Wilton
(JetConGlomCo) or Grizzly and we give it/them to the nice
man there. He in turn begins a process of giving the
dollars to his company and eventually they (the company)
splits off a couple few dollars here to stay in 'Murica
(warehouse/office admin/other such peoples based on 'Murican
soil) , some goes to the corporate side of things (based
where ever in the world, I think its a mobile home in
Nebraska) and the rest goes to the country of origin where
raw materials are paid for, 'lektricuty is paid for and the
children who manufacture the 'chinery get their daily bread.
Seems like a sad trek that the dollars take, eh? Then I got
to thinking, what of the dollars we spend directly to a
'Murican company. Well, they keep a larger percentage here
as one might expect but most 'Murican companies reside in a
GlowBall market and, well, some of those good, hard earned
dollars get mixed in with the corporate spit and, well,
guess what? Uh-huh, you got it Chester. They've gone and
wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
for their own operations based in that country.
sigh!
I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
about it. Here we have a place where we can spend our money
and not only does it stay in the good old U.S. of A. but it
stays right down here on a local level. What more can/could
you/we ask for? Well, let's see. You've given the nice man
the money and what does he do with it? Yep, he goes to the
Pigg-a-la Wigg-a-lee and he buys Pop Tarts and Tang (Made In
'Murica) for the family breakfast table. On the way home he
notices he needs gasoline for the auto-mobile so he stops to
top off the tank. We all know that money stays here, I
mean, we have the oil reserves to last us well into the ends
of our lifetimes. While gassing up he notices he needs new
tennis shoes so its off to Kohls (they have the best tennis
shoe prices) where he drops $40ish on new shoes. But, but,
but, but, doesn't that money go off shore? Why yes it does
but only a very small percentage. $5 goes to the country of
origin to pay for raw materials and manufacture (to pay the
children who make our shoes/clothes). $5 goes to the
corporate entity who have masterminded this ekonomik
scenario. The rest of the money goes to good and tall
'Murican athletes who then in turn use it to stimulate the
national ekonomy buy buying Escalades and tennis bracelets.
A'yup, I wish I had a lead on some used machinery right
about now so I could contribute to this little machine.
UA100, who keeps his own stimulus package in his pants...
On 15-Nov-2003, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:
> We all know that money stays here, I
> mean, we have the oil reserves to last us well into the ends
> of our lifetimes.
Since when is USA self sufficient in oil?
Mike
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
>>I'll let some goofball pay retail and let them take the hit of decrease
>>of value by simple virtue of taking possession.
>
> Not to mention motor vehicles. <G>
They're not even worth what they're going for used. $5,000 for a freaking
car? My $850 special from 14 years ago still runs.
Unfortunately, I'm no longer driving it.
I *am* driving my $3,600 special from 12 years ago though. It's got
99,100-something miles on the odo. Needs to last me two more years. Just
two more years.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
bad monkey!
dave
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> Ever so often I like to mull this one over. Not that I
> particularly care (I don't really (OK I do but I'm jaded))
> but it gives me something to do between the trips to the
> drive-up windows. Anyway, it certainly appears that maybe
> we don't have a whole lot of say anymore. Like for
> instance,
>
> Let's say I take my hard earned dollars ('Murican money
> David) and we take it to Jet/Powermatic/Wilton
> (JetConGlomCo) or Grizzly and we give it/them to the nice
> man there. He in turn begins a process of giving the
> dollars to his company and eventually they (the company)
> splits off a couple few dollars here to stay in 'Murica
> (warehouse/office admin/other such peoples based on 'Murican
> soil) , some goes to the corporate side of things (based
> where ever in the world, I think its a mobile home in
> Nebraska) and the rest goes to the country of origin where
> raw materials are paid for, 'lektricuty is paid for and the
> children who manufacture the 'chinery get their daily bread.
>
> Seems like a sad trek that the dollars take, eh? Then I got
> to thinking, what of the dollars we spend directly to a
> 'Murican company. Well, they keep a larger percentage here
> as one might expect but most 'Murican companies reside in a
> GlowBall market and, well, some of those good, hard earned
> dollars get mixed in with the corporate spit and, well,
> guess what? Uh-huh, you got it Chester. They've gone and
> wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
> your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
> for their own operations based in that country.
>
> sigh!
>
> I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
> lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
> about it. Here we have a place where we can spend our money
> and not only does it stay in the good old U.S. of A. but it
> stays right down here on a local level. What more can/could
> you/we ask for? Well, let's see. You've given the nice man
> the money and what does he do with it? Yep, he goes to the
> Pigg-a-la Wigg-a-lee and he buys Pop Tarts and Tang (Made In
> 'Murica) for the family breakfast table. On the way home he
> notices he needs gasoline for the auto-mobile so he stops to
> top off the tank. We all know that money stays here, I
> mean, we have the oil reserves to last us well into the ends
> of our lifetimes. While gassing up he notices he needs new
> tennis shoes so its off to Kohls (they have the best tennis
> shoe prices) where he drops $40ish on new shoes. But, but,
> but, but, doesn't that money go off shore? Why yes it does
> but only a very small percentage. $5 goes to the country of
> origin to pay for raw materials and manufacture (to pay the
> children who make our shoes/clothes). $5 goes to the
> corporate entity who have masterminded this ekonomik
> scenario. The rest of the money goes to good and tall
> 'Murican athletes who then in turn use it to stimulate the
> national ekonomy buy buying Escalades and tennis bracelets.
>
> A'yup, I wish I had a lead on some used machinery right
> about now so I could contribute to this little machine.
>
> UA100, who keeps his own stimulus package in his pants...
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>>Good idea in theory. Let's say you spark a good idea and all of us stop
>>buying new today. Only used from the local papers so we keep the money in
>>our community.
>
>
> I didn't imply that we "all" not buy new.
Hell, No! SOMEBODY'S got to buy the stuff new so we can buy it used.
I certainly don't want anyone but me buying used equipment. At least not
in my area.
>
>>Most likely, the local Woodworkers Warehouse stores will close. As will the
>>Woodcraft chain. They people at the Grizzly warehouse will be collecting
>>unemployment, standing in line with the guys from Jet, Delta, and a half
>>dozen importers.
>
>
> I think you'd be surprised. The scenario you lay out would
> involve a lot of people unable to adapt and as hooman beans
> we do have that certain God given thinking capacity allotted
> to survival.
The scenario laid out implies:
1) Warehouses sell only equipment and tools, not hardware, wood and
other supplies, and
2) There will be enough used equipment available to satisfy need. From
my experience at auctions I think this will not be the case.
>
> Hey man, don't bogart that thing, give the rest of us a
> poke, won't you?
I don't know, for such thinking I think it would take more than a mild
hallucinogenic.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
>
>
> sigh!
>
> I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
> lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
> about it. Here we have a place where we can spend our money
> and not only does it stay in the good old U.S. of A. but it
> stays right down here on a local level. What more can/could
> you/we ask for?
Good idea in theory. Let's say you spark a good idea and all of us stop
buying new today. Only used from the local papers so we keep the money in
our community.
Most likely, the local Woodworkers Warehouse stores will close. As will the
Woodcraft chain. They people at the Grizzly warehouse will be collecting
unemployment, standing in line with the guys from Jet, Delta, and a half
dozen importers.
With the scarcity of new tools, a used Craftsman direct drive saw was that
sold new for $129 will bring $2900 from the widow Jones who is now living a
fancy life selling off the deceased hubby's tools. A Unisaw can be bartered
for a cottage on the lake. Security systems will be installed on 8"
jointers. Damn, my wife will be tempted to hasten my death as she sees the
value of my tools out pacing my 401k by 500%.
Ed
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> ...........
> sigh!
>
> I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
> lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used".
If I can avoid buying new I will.
I'll let some goofball pay retail and let them take the hit of decrease
of value by simple virtue of taking possession.
I look about the house and see a substantial amount is second hand.
Could I buy a new 250 watt RMS stereo for $25? Wife seems to think the
cabinet itself was worth the money. So what if I have to walk across the
room to turn it on.
Tools? Where would I begin? Three table saws and a 4" joiner for under
$300 total. One TS is a Craftsman, the rest are Rockwell's. Took a
little cleaning, even paying myself $20 an hour I made out like a
bandit. Dedicated Dado table? Is that a big thing? Funny , I was going
to set one up for this.
Another thing is, allot of this stuff can't be bought anymore. With the
TS/ Joiner I got a tendoner. Big solid rigid cast iron thing. Angle
can't be adjusted but that's why the saw blade tilts.
But there are things I won't buy used. My air compressor for instance. I
don't trust people to blow down their tanks. A ruptured tank is a bit
more excitement than I need. I have a Fluke 83, Damned if I'll trust my
life to a used meter. Have I bought used meters? Yes, but the Fluke is
the one I use when I have to know for sure.
(Wife's dropping hints about the time, Wife is now SWMBO).
Buy Used! Buy Often! Get more bang for the buck! Put the money in
someone's pocket who's going to buy new and take the hit!
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
...
> wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
> your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
> for their own operations based in that country.
>
> sigh!
>
> I mean, what's a body to do?
Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
or not) results in shittier, more expensive goods for all of us.
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Manny Davis responds:
>
> >> wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
> >> your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
> >> for their own operations based in that country.
> >>
> >> sigh!
> >>
> >> I mean, what's a body to do?
> >
> >Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
> >"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
> >or not) results in shittier, more expensive goods for all of us.
>
> Really? Damn. Last real production lines I saw, some few years ago, were
B&D in
> Maryland and Makita in SC. Lessee. Also GAF near Baltimore, too. Checking
> personnel there, I saw probably 40% were colors other than white. Checking
> company ownership, I'd have to guess, but Makita is part of a Japanese
> conglomerate, while B&D is owned worldwide, so while U.S. management MAY
be
> "white" (neither you nor I know for sure, though), lots of the owners are
> particolored. Be durned if I know who owns GAF now, but it is a
multinational,
> so I'd guess ownership is spread widely over various nations and colors.
>
> Let's not add excess bullshit to the baggage this problem already carries,
> especially in response to a humorous question.
>
> Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking at
> factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5 bucks a
day,
> or less, with which those laborers live better than almost all the others
in
> their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't buy most hamburgers,
especially
> after tax.
>
> There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next decade
or
> 2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be very joyful
about
> jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is replaced these days
is
> being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job. Eventually that will mean that
> someone else is going to buy the products these emerging "efficient"
producers
> are making.
>
> Charlie Self
> "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less
we use
> our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
>
It's not quite that simple. A good many of the jobs are not "moving",
they're disappearing. Robotics is the main reason for this. I don't think
anyone has quite figured out what to do about the looming underemployment
problem. (I just heard an advertisiment for a Bernelli (sp?) sewing
machine that has a full Microsoft-driven, Intell microprocessor installed in
a HOME machine. Install enough micro-power and I might even be able to sew
a new shop apron. Stop laughing. It could happen!)
But there is another problem that's just now beginning to appear on the
horzion. One of the factors involved with the movement of raw manufacturing
into foreign environments, is the extremely cheap transportation costs of
moving the completed product(s) back into local markets. Fossil fuels are
NOT going to get any cheaper, and if you listen to some, the era of
(relatively) cheap energy is drawing to a close for everyone. (I don't
quite believe it myself, but some relatively rational people are predicting
that the peak oil production has already been reached and *no matter what*,
oil production world wide, will very gradually begin to decline.
Right now, labor costs are a prime consideration on manufacturing location.
However, if, as I suspect, we begin to see a increase in fuel costs, the
pressure to re-locate manufacturing much closer to target markets, is going
to become increasingly more of the mix. (None of this will happen
overnight, to be sure.) I very much look for a return to 19th Century
economics where it might be feasible, even desirable to to centralize around
specific transporation (railroads), or maybe a nuclear driven power grid,
but the very idea of loading a gigantic container transport, and then using
millions of gallons of diseal fuel to move relatively low value commodities
across the Pacific just, will become a thing of the past.
The increased energy costs alone are going to drive up the manufacture of
most tools. Right now, I can buy a quite acceptable Grizzley (Chinese)
cabinet saw for $1000. I assume most of those $1800 Powermatics are made
overseas, but let's assume that they're made in New Britain, Connectiucut.
It doesn't take much of a jump in trans-Pacific transportation costs for
that Powermatic, to become much more attractive. ESPECIALLY if Powermatic
would decentralize it's operations and begin manufacturing those Powermatics
in three, (or more!) smaller, but still efficient manufacturing centers
located around the US.
To be only somewhat facetious, this opera isn't over and the fat lady hasn't
even appeared on stage yet.
James....
J&K Copeland writes:
>But there is another problem that's just now beginning to appear on the
>horzion. One of the factors involved with the movement of raw manufacturing
>into foreign environments, is the extremely cheap transportation costs of
>moving the completed product(s) back into local markets. Fossil fuels are
>NOT going to get any cheaper, and if you listen to some, the era of
>(relatively) cheap energy is drawing to a close for everyone. (I don't
>quite believe it myself, but some relatively rational people are predicting
>that the peak oil production has already been reached and *no matter what*,
>oil production world wide, will very gradually begin to decline.
Uh, yeah. Eventually. But back around '73, the parents of the guys and gals
making the current predictions swore up and down we'd be totally--not partly,
but totally--out of reclaimable oil by the late '80s or early '90s.
Whoops. Sane and rational doesn't add much to predictions, I'm afraid.
Nostradamus may have been a nut, and wrong 98% of the time, but that 2% right
is about 1000% higher than anyone else's rate.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
Manny Davis responds:
>> wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
>> your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
>> for their own operations based in that country.
>>
>> sigh!
>>
>> I mean, what's a body to do?
>
>Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
>"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
>or not) results in shittier, more expensive goods for all of us.
Really? Damn. Last real production lines I saw, some few years ago, were B&D in
Maryland and Makita in SC. Lessee. Also GAF near Baltimore, too. Checking
personnel there, I saw probably 40% were colors other than white. Checking
company ownership, I'd have to guess, but Makita is part of a Japanese
conglomerate, while B&D is owned worldwide, so while U.S. management MAY be
"white" (neither you nor I know for sure, though), lots of the owners are
particolored. Be durned if I know who owns GAF now, but it is a multinational,
so I'd guess ownership is spread widely over various nations and colors.
Let's not add excess bullshit to the baggage this problem already carries,
especially in response to a humorous question.
Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking at
factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5 bucks a day,
or less, with which those laborers live better than almost all the others in
their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't buy most hamburgers, especially
after tax.
There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next decade or
2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be very joyful about
jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is replaced these days is
being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job. Eventually that will mean that
someone else is going to buy the products these emerging "efficient" producers
are making.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:05:25 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>J&KCopeland wrote:
>
>> To be only somewhat facetious, this opera isn't over and the fat lady
>> hasn't even appeared on stage yet.
>
>All interesting theories. Personally, I don't think we'll be seing a 19th
>century model unless civilization collapses completely. I think in the
>near term (my lifetime) the more likely outcome is that we will develop
>hydrogen as a practical, safe fuel source. The only reason we're not using
>fossil fuel alternatives right now is because we're just not motivated to
>make them work.
Another problem with hydrogen is that too many companies want
to make it from, yup, you guessed it: Natural Gas!
I was shocked in CA when, during the electric crisis, they all
wanted to build all these natural gas fired generators. This
during the time that there was an EXISTING pipeline crunch (and
ongoing investigation) from, you guessed it: Texas.
Who ARE these tanjing idiots?
----------------------------------------------------------------
* OPERA: A Latin word * Wondrous Website Design
* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
We're just, I believe, beginning to sort out the two-earner household.
That, I think has as much to do with this problem of labor as anything else.
When the second wage-earner trend began, there was a shortage of people,
therefore a higher rate of pay. As we get more and more (don't say they
"have" to work, that's far from universal, so far), we have an ample supply,
and decreased wages.
Trouble is, factor "x" is playing too - loss of the two-adult household.
Two adults in a household at 8 equals more or less one at fifteen in dough,
but certainly doesn't support two separate domiciles.
Then there's the other big problem, that we can't support a generous
government on income taxes from 8 buck jobs....
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In response to some knee-jerk bigot.
>
> Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking at
> factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5 bucks a
day,
> or less, with which those laborers live better than almost all the others
in
> their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't buy most hamburgers,
especially
> after tax.
>
> There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next decade
or
> 2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be very joyful
about
> jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is replaced these days
is
> being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job. Eventually that will mean that
> someone else is going to buy the products these emerging "efficient"
producers
> are making.
Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> I was shocked in CA when, during the electric crisis, they all
> wanted to build all these natural gas fired generators. This
> during the time that there was an EXISTING pipeline crunch (and
> ongoing investigation) from, you guessed it: Texas.
>
> Who ARE these tanjing idiots?
Probably elected oficials.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Manny Davis responds:
>
>>> wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
>>> your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
>>> for their own operations based in that country.
>>>
>>> sigh!
>>>
>>> I mean, what's a body to do?
>>
>>Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
>>"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
>>or not) results in shittier, more expensive goods for all of us.
>
> Really? Damn. Last real production lines I saw, some few years ago,
> were B&D in Maryland and Makita in SC. Lessee. Also GAF near
> Baltimore, too. Checking personnel there, I saw probably 40% were
> colors other than white.
You misunderstood or I didn't make myself clear (probably the latter).
The mindset that some people have had in the past (do business with only
white people) is no different, in principle, than the current, "do
business only with Americans".
> Checking company ownership, I'd have to
> guess, but Makita is part of a Japanese conglomerate, while B&D is
> owned worldwide, so while U.S. management MAY be "white" (neither you
> nor I know for sure, though), lots of the owners are particolored. Be
> durned if I know who owns GAF now, but it is a multinational, so I'd
> guess ownership is spread widely over various nations and colors.
>
> Let's not add excess bullshit to the baggage this problem already
> carries, especially in response to a humorous question.
>
> Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking
> at factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5
> bucks a day, or less, with which those laborers live better than
> almost all the others in their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't
> buy most hamburgers, especially after tax.
It doesn't matter what they're willing to work for. Suppose they were
willing to work for free. Would Americans be worse off or better off if
foreign countries shipped goods over here for free? (forgetting other
production costs for the moment)
The people working in those factories are there because that is probably
their best option at the moment. Five bucks a day may mean the difference
between eating and not eating.
> There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next
> decade or 2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be
> very joyful about jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is
> replaced these days is being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job.
> Eventually that will mean that someone else is going to buy the
> products these emerging "efficient" producers are making.
J&KCopeland wrote:
> To be only somewhat facetious, this opera isn't over and the fat lady
> hasn't even appeared on stage yet.
All interesting theories. Personally, I don't think we'll be seing a 19th
century model unless civilization collapses completely. I think in the
near term (my lifetime) the more likely outcome is that we will develop
hydrogen as a practical, safe fuel source. The only reason we're not using
fossil fuel alternatives right now is because we're just not motivated to
make them work.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Larry Jaques wrote:
> Who ARE these tanjing idiots?
Politicians... Gotta love'em.
I've been even more cynical than ever since a few years ago when we had a
tree planting event. The town mayor graced us with his presence. Got his
picture taken sticking a shovel into the ground surrounded by little kids.
Then he handed the shovel to one of the little kids and walked away. The
newspaper read like our munificent mayor was a veritable tree planting
machine, but his hands never actually touched dirt. My heart toward
poly-ticks shrunk four sizes that day.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Silvan writes:
>Then he handed the shovel to one of the little kids and walked away. The
>newspaper read like our munificent mayor was a veritable tree planting
>machine, but his hands never actually touched dirt. My heart toward
>poly-ticks shrunk four sizes that day.
You'e getting there. As time goes by--could write a song with that title, I
bet--your heart towards poly-ticksians will become the size of a grape seed and
as hard as granite.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
Charlie Self wrote:
> You'e getting there. As time goes by--could write a song with that title,
> I bet--your heart towards poly-ticksians will become the size of a grape
> seed and as hard as granite.
It's already smaller than that. I wouldn't even use one for a push stick.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Swingman wrote:
> The solution seems to have already been decided upon: tax the crap out of
> property owners.
Man, you got that right. It's amazing how my $75,000 house turned into a
$140,000 house overnight.
If I had known that was coming, I would have been a hell of a lot less
friendly toward the tax assessor.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> With the scarcity of new tools, a used Craftsman direct drive saw was that
> sold new for $129 will bring $2900 from the widow Jones who is now living a
> fancy life selling off the deceased hubby's tools. A Unisaw can be bartered
> for a cottage on the lake. Security systems will be installed on 8"
> jointers. Damn, my wife will be tempted to hasten my death as she sees the
> value of my tools out pacing my 401k by 500%.
Hate to tell you but buying beer and scrapping the cans outpaced many
401k's.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:06:15 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
wrote:
>If I can avoid buying new I will.
>
>I'll let some goofball pay retail and let them take the hit of decrease
>of value by simple virtue of taking possession.
Not to mention motor vehicles. <G>
Barry
Charlie Self wrote:
>>know when to punch it. Even so, it'll be doing way below the speed limit
>>by the top. The power to weight ratio just sucks royally.
>>
> On some. On others, like my SIL's Chrysler with a peppy V6, it just blows
> up the local mountains (around your area, though admittedly he does spend
> more time running towards Charlottesville) even with a load of kids and
> their junk. As with most other vehicles, there are engine options, as
> there were with station wagons.
Yeah, but Dad's anemic, wheezy POS has a V6 too. When he bought the thing,
he looked into some kind of aftermarket ignition kit to make it zippier,
but we couldn't find five cubic inches of room under the hood anywhere to
install it.
I'm probably going to wind up with a minivan some day myself. Pretty
practical for a family man, I must say. Haul your kids and dogs, haul your
wood. I borrow Dad's van a lot. (I also spend long hours doing graphics
for his business for free, so don't cry for my poor Daddy...)
I'm not going to get one until I reach a point in life where I can pay
mechanics to do *all* the maintenance though. At only 30-something, I'm
still too damn old to be contorting myself into the hideous positions
demanded of mechanics working on those damn things.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Michael Daly wrote:
>> We all know that money stays here, I
>> mean, we have the oil reserves to last us well into the ends
>> of our lifetimes.
>
> Since when is USA self sufficient in oil?
As soon as we burn up everybody else's oil in our SUVs and then have to
be. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>Good idea in theory. Let's say you spark a good idea and all of us stop
>buying new today. Only used from the local papers so we keep the money in
>our community.
I didn't imply that we "all" not buy new. Just those who
have a hankering for keeping their dollars in 'Murica.
Judging by what gets discussed here I don't quite have
visions of too many people with certain bumper stickers
plastered on their (insert truck name here).
>Most likely, the local Woodworkers Warehouse stores will close. As will the
>Woodcraft chain. They people at the Grizzly warehouse will be collecting
>unemployment, standing in line with the guys from Jet, Delta, and a half
>dozen importers.
I think you'd be surprised. The scenario you lay out would
involve a lot of people unable to adapt and as hooman beans
we do have that certain God given thinking capacity allotted
to survival. I mean, just ''cause we forgot how to hunt
down and kill woolly mammoths with our bare hands doesn't
mean we'll allow ourselves to go extinct.
Besides, from what I've gleaned from all the goings on,
places like Woodcraft would drop machinery in a heart beat,
if they could.
>With the scarcity of new tools, a used Craftsman direct drive saw was that
>sold new for $129 will bring $2900 from the widow Jones who is now living a
>fancy life selling off the deceased hubby's tools. A Unisaw can be bartered
>for a cottage on the lake. Security systems will be installed on 8"
>jointers. Damn, my wife will be tempted to hasten my death as she sees the
>value of my tools out pacing my 401k by 500%.
Hey man, don't bogart that thing, give the rest of us a
poke, won't you?
UA100
Charlie Self wrote:
>
> I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't be
> hauled as easily in a minivan: I'm sure there's something, but I jsut can't
> think of what it might be offhand.
>
Ass. My first car was a Ford Custom wagon with a 427, that bad boy would
fly.
I think it has less to do with what a vehicle will carry and more what
the driver/ owner is willing to carry.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
[...]
>
> It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
> choose to drive.
It's because the typical SUV convez the message (especially if
equipped with "reinforcement bars" at the front): "I dont't care what
happens to the people that i crash my extra heavy car into, as long as
my laquer doesn't get scratched"
Especially if the SUV's aggessive apearance is heightened by black
paint or military background (like a hummer or jeep) it makes people
want to fire a bozooka at it.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
>
>
> Woman: _WHY_ can't I buy a permit?
>
> Ranger: Your vehicle is 2WD.
>
> Woman: But I can see other Grand Cherokee's moving toward the beach
.......
> Repeat for almost 30 minutes, with lawsuit threats, etc.
> Conversation ends when Ranger's supervisor threatens to arrest woman
> for disturbing the peace. <G>
LMAO.
Reminds me of something last summer.
During the county fair I park cars at my mothers house. She lives on a
one acre lot a couple hundred feet from the fairgrounds main entrance.
When it rains the fairgrounds parking lots turn into a mud bath and our
business picks up quite a bit. Our yard gets soppy but since we don't
have that much traffic it's manageable.
Wife flags in a Blazer, something I told her I didn't want. The lady
stops half way back the back yard. Then she tries to go, spins the
tires, breaks through he sod and loads the treads. Dumbass. Then she
tries going backwards. I'm looking at the beginning of a mud pit. I try
coaching her out. Forget it, she's got car tires.
These guys I just parked are walking by and offer to help push this lady
out. Seems people going to the fair are looking for adventure. I say
sure, they lean on it, lady puts it in gear and spins tires. Shit.
Then I notice there's a 4x4 on the rear quarter. ? not a big 4x4 but a
tiny 4x4.
I start yelling for people to stop everything.
I ask this lady if she's got it in four wheel drive.
She says 'yes, it's a 4wd.
I ask again if it's engaged. (I know it isn't)
She takes her hands from the wheel and starts looking around the cabin.
(Jesus)
I look at the hubs, no locks. I look at the hump, don't remember seeing
the short lever.
She has no idea how to 'turn it on'. She can't find the button.
(Jesus)
I find the button for her. She presses it. I tell her to lean on the
gas, she smacks the throttle, but at least she's out of the rut..
We got a good laugh out of it, except for her because she was still
clueless about her cluelessness. You would think if someone's stuck in a
4x4 they would turn it on. Never crossed her mind.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
"A Dog Named Stain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > > Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were
able
> to get
> > > us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five
miles
> from
> > > the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it
seems
> like
> > > most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets
> without an
> > > SUV.
> > >
> > > SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ
> >
> > Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?
> >
> > -Doug
>
> 3 in the front, 3 in the middle, 3 in the back and 4 to push it
through
> the snow.
As you can tell, math's not my strong suit.
If you're a grandpa, you must remember the three-year vehicle. So you've
picked a bad example, in my opinion. I'm _glad_ they don't make 'em like
they used to. I'm running about eight/ten years in salt country right now,
and 150K+, which was unheard of when I was a kid.
As to manufacturing, might I submit:
Foundry/factory puts out smoke, noise, uses up resources. NIMBY!
Got to let people who hate what I stand for as an owner "organize" in my
plant. They risk nothing, I everything to start it.
Have to be a good corporate citizen and pay more taxes even if it bankrupts
me. I don't get to define citizenship, either.
Oh yes, conspiracy theories aside, the money _isn't_ in making 'em, but
selling 'em.
"Grandpa" <jsdebooATcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not many, costs too much to produce them here, plus, if you make a tool
> to last a long time then you can't sell many of them. Have you noted
> that cars last until you make your last payment, then fall to pieces?
> We are digging ourselves into a huge hole.
>
> Brian Elfert wrote:
>
> > Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
> >
> > Brian Elfert
>
Dr. Know <[email protected]> writes:
>You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
>pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
>For many years I refused to buy Chinese crap, but the stores kept
>filling up with more and more of it - it's hard to stem the tide of
>consumers who don't give a crap - until THEIR jobs disappear. Most
>are oblivious to this trend occurring. They select products on price
I work for a newspaper. Unless everything goes to the web, we'll still be
around. So many people like to read real paper that newspapers will be
around for some time yet.
Retailers still need to advertise no matter where they get the good, so my
job is reasonably secure.
Brian Elfert
"George" <[email protected]> writes:
>If you're a grandpa, you must remember the three-year vehicle. So you've
>picked a bad example, in my opinion. I'm _glad_ they don't make 'em like
>they used to. I'm running about eight/ten years in salt country right now,
>and 150K+, which was unheard of when I was a kid.
Cars are much better now. Minnesota used to be the land of the rust
bucket. Now, in general, more cars succumb to accidents than to rust. I
rarely see a rust bucket anymore unless it is pretty old like 1980s
vintage.
Brian Elfert
We need to send all those Chinese jobs....too Mexico...so they can stay
home.......
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:36:26 -0700, Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Not many, costs too much to produce them here, plus, if you make a tool
> >to last a long time then you can't sell many of them. Have you noted
> >that cars last until you make your last payment, then fall to pieces?
> >We are digging ourselves into a huge hole.
> >
>
> Ah, my Japanese car is over 20 years old. My brother always buys
> American cars, but buys a new one every three years because they keep
> falling apart. He makes more money than I do.
Wrong all the way. From engine through galvanizing through suspension, the
cars are built better. You're one of the few who would contest that. 100K
used to be an old car. Now it's middle-aged.
"Grandpa" <jsdebooATcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thats probably due to better paint and undercoats, not the mechanical
> side of the vehicle, unless its dying before it has a chance to rust.
>
With the news being reported on the fast media, the only thing available to
the print folks is to expand the story, which they do, within space
limitations, presuming you, as they, know the overview.
Couldn't agree more that story selection, facts selected in support, and
general slant of the print medium, as with other media, is to sell soap.
With that in mind, they stick to the tried-and-true formula that all gains
are ill-gotten, the individual is always the victim of circumstance, and the
only way to "beat the system" is with their support and guidance.
Last night's here featured articles on why we need steel tariffs to protect
our mining industry, which contrasted sharply with the reportage on a group
of malodorous "green" malcontents trying to prevent further mineral
exploration, lest there be a mine opening....
"Pops" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Could it have anything to do with the quality of the paper? I for one get
> tired of having to read 2-3 paragraphs of the reporters PC-BS before they
> tell me what happened. News stories are / were suppose to be just that, an
> unbiased view of an event that took place. There is a place for editorials
> but not in EVERY story. I am at the point now where I skim down the
article
> until I find the NEWS.
More important in the price of the vehicle is the number of retirees who are
paid from the same markup. Read recently that GM was paying one retiree for
each two workers. The retirees benefits are renegotiated in the pattern
contracts.
Both are UAW.
"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
>>
> The Nissan came from New Smyrna, TN, the Subaru from Indiana. I've
> always wondered if, of the two plants, both, neither, or either is UAW
> represented?
>
> Barry
Trent© <[email protected]> writes:
>>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
>>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
>>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
>>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
>>stayed on the shelf.
>Are you limiting your boycott to just tools?
There is a lot of stuff I simply couldn't buy period if everything I
bought was made in the USA.
Brian Elfert
THere was an article recently (in the WashPost, I think) about all the
Beemers at Cosco. According to their study, wealthier people want to
pay the low price for stuff they don't really care about, but are
willing to spend the extra dough on stuff that's important to them
(e.g. cars, fancy gourmet kitchen, etc.).
Personally, I kinda think that's true across the board, though, of
course, those with less money have less of a choice to spend the
greater sums.
Now, the question that I've had for a while, since I saw that the new
X5 version of the DJ20 jointer isn't made here, is as follows: Delta
has established a reputation as a pretty good ww machinery maker. So,
when you haul your manufacturing op oversees, because it's CHEAPER,
the assumption can't help but being that the quality is degraded. Why
the heck wouldn't Delta want to do everything possible to maintain
their rep, and thus justify somewhat higher prices (i.e. aim at the
more exclusive market niche rather than the masses), rather than
bowing to the ever prevalent modus operandi of cheap(er) Chinese junk?
i.e. if they could maintain their reputation, which has apparently
sagged of late, they could justify the higher price and say we got Jet
beat on our quality, robustness, etc. While some might say, well, I'm
just a home woodworker and don't need the extra robustness, surely
there are enough folks out there after the extra quality that they
don't have to surrender?
Renata
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:19:16 GMT, "@sbc(nospam)global.net"
<""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote:
>Put on your flameproof underwear. But as a tool and diemaker who has
>seen my trade decimated in the last few years, I wholeheartedly agree
>with you. That's why I bought a Unisaw that was made here. It seems like
>the X5 series is Taiwanese, but the limited edition (phasing out) was
>made here. I too would also rather pay a little more to keep some of
>the manufacturing in the States.
>
My FiL wouldn't even eat rice after three invasions out in the islands.
"Manny Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> When I was a kid, my dad told me to never buy a tool that
> had "Made in Japan" stamped on it. He was right back then, but wrong now.
>
I wholeheartedly agree. Buy the best quality and it's up to the
company, American or other, to earn that reputation. Buying American
striclty 'cause it's American allows the company to get lazy and
depend on blind loyalty rather than having a good product.
However, when a company has established a (good) reputation and then
moves production to an el cheapo place, (and deoesn't even drop
prices), what happens to the quality (and soon thereafter, reputation)
of that compnay?
I mean Delta is a great example. Why on earth would I buy a new DJ20
jointer now - it's made in Taiwan. Is the price lower - no. Is the
quality questionable - in my mind, yes.
Renata
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:32:04 -0500, Bob Haar <[email protected]>
wrote:
--snip--
>
>This whole discussion is quite meaningless. What we should do is be informed
>consumers and look for quality and value in whatever we buy, no matter whot
>he manufacturer is or whether the company is based in the US or not.
>
Where? (Canada counts as 'murica).
Renata
On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:11:48 GMT, Pat Barber
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Where did you think the tool was made prior to Taiwan ???
>
>PS:
>
>It was never made here.
>
>
>Renata wrote:
>
>> I mean Delta is a great example. Why on earth would I buy a new DJ20
>> jointer now - it's made in Taiwan. Is the price lower - no. Is the
>> quality questionable - in my mind, yes.
>>
>> Renata
>
I kinda like my old 50's vintage DELTA Unisaw, so it ain't cause it's
a Delta.
Renata
On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:19:15 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>Because it's Delta or because it's made in Taiwan? <g>
>
>dave
>
>Renata wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I mean Delta is a great example. Why on earth would I buy a new DJ20
>> jointer now - it's made in Taiwan. Is the quality questionable - in my mind, yes.
>>
>> Renata
>
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:50:05 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:3fafe433$0$75901
>> I work for a newspaper. Unless everything goes to the web, we'll still be
>> around. So many people like to read real paper that newspapers will be
>> around for some time yet.
>>
>> Retailers still need to advertise no matter where they get the good, so my
>> job is reasonably secure.
>>
>> Brian Elfert
>
>Still be around, but less of you. Newspaper circulation has been in decline
>for some years now. People would rather watch the news on TV or listen on
>the radio during their commute. I can think of a dozen major cities that
>have lost at least one of their papers in the past 10 or 15 years.
>Ed
>
And a lot of the advertising printing is farmed out...not even printed
by the local company. Its more economical to print on a regional
level for a national advertiser...and then just truck the ads in to be
included in a local paper.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
> I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
> nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
> and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
> Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
> you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
> I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
> stayed on the shelf.
>
> Brian Elfert
This is a toughie.
First off, I don't think anyone should buy junk, no matter where it is
made.
However, one could push the concept further and insist on buying only
items made in Wisconsin, or whatever it is you reside. After all, why
put someone out of work in Wisconsin by buying something made in
California?
Turn this around and look at it from the viewpoint of someone in
Poorcounrty, Aftrica. He can make a quality product and sell if for
less, so we tell him that he ain't an Americian, so he can starve no
matter how good his stuff is?
Or, maybe good ol' Uncle Sam should put a tarrif on imported tools, no
matter how good or bad, so we can all pay more and keep a few more
overpriced workers employed.
(Remove tung from cheek.)
I think everyone should have a fair change to make a living by selling
a good product at a fair price, no matter who he is or where he is.
All else being equal, I'd rather buy from my neighbor than someone
half way around the world - Its easier to get my hands around his
throat if something goes wrong.
I also think that the typical US consumer doesn't know a quality
product when he sees it, so he has only two things left to make a
buying decision on - price and features. Since most of us don't have
the money for all the bells and whistle, we go with the lowest price -
usually meaning cheap and foreign. I think we need to consider
ourselves lucky that there are as many good products at reasonable
prices as there are. A lot of that is due to the ability of some poor
slob living in a hut to do quality work at a horribly low wage.
There's more to the world than the US of A - for better or for worse.
Allen
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:10:11 +0000, J&KCopeland wrote:
> And yet the largest selling single model vehicle, (at least in the US) is
> the Ford F-150 pickup. I have a '97 Ford, with a Triton V-8 and 125,000
> miles. There isn't a rust spot on the vehicle. The interior, after a clean
> up, shows NO visible signs of wear. Everything still works, including the
> air conditioner.
>
> It still has the ORIGINAL spark plugs installed. (I was going to have them
> changed about 15K miles ago, but the mechanic, after pulling a couple of
> them, said there was simply no legitimate reason to change them.)
>
> It has NOT been maintnenace free. I had to have a cracked head gasket
> replaced at 110K, so I had them both replaced. It has had a new battery,
> and is now on it's (new) third set of tires. The air conditioner has to be
> recharged every other year, now, so there is some leakage.
>
> If and when I do have to replace the truck, which will probably (hopefully)
> not be in the near future, I'll be right back to that Ford dealership.
...and so will I. My '83 F150 had 175,000 on it when it was stolen out of
my driveway. I did all the maintenance on it and never had to add oil
between changes every 5000 miles. It was a 4.9L straight six with an
overdrive manual transmission. Got about 23MPG. The worst expense was a
new clutch at 150,000 miles.
Picked up an '87 F150 with the insurance money plus a few hundred. It
wasn't in the pristine shape of my '83, but it's just getting broken in
with 125,000 miles on it. This one is a 5.0L V8 with an automatic and
only gets about 16MPG
Neither had/has a speck of rust and both were/are tight and rattle free.
-Doug
Doug Winterburn writes:
>
>Picked up an '87 F150 with the insurance money plus a few hundred. It
>wasn't in the pristine shape of my '83, but it's just getting broken in
>with 125,000 miles on it. This one is a 5.0L V8 with an automatic and
>only gets about 16MPG
>
>Neither had/has a speck of rust and both were/are tight and rattle free.
>
Yabbut, don't I recall you being in Aridzona? You have to park IN your swimming
pool to form rust on things there, or so I'm told.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:28:43 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
> Doug Winterburn writes:
>
>>
>>Picked up an '87 F150 with the insurance money plus a few hundred. It
>>wasn't in the pristine shape of my '83, but it's just getting broken in
>>with 125,000 miles on it. This one is a 5.0L V8 with an automatic and
>>only gets about 16MPG
>>
>>Neither had/has a speck of rust and both were/are tight and rattle free.
>>
>
> Yabbut, don't I recall you being in Aridzona? You have to park IN your swimming
> pool to form rust on things there, or so I'm told.
True, but the the '83 spent it's first 10 years in Seattle, and the '87 is
a relatively recent import from Ohio.
-Doug
Yea, it sucks that some of love America still, doesn't it.
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> The thread that refuses to die.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
> A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
> suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>
On 12 Nov 2003 02:28:43 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:
>Doug Winterburn writes:
>
>>
>>Picked up an '87 F150 with the insurance money plus a few hundred. It
>>wasn't in the pristine shape of my '83, but it's just getting broken in
>>with 125,000 miles on it. This one is a 5.0L V8 with an automatic and
>>only gets about 16MPG
My '90 just rolled over (000486.3) and gets 18mpg with a rebuilt
4OD trailing a lovely little 302. This thing sure runs better
than my '68 Ranch Wagon with the same motor and a 2bbl carb, I
tell ya. About 100 horses better and never a studder no matter
what temp. I ADORE fuel injection! Good going, Dougie.
>>Neither had/has a speck of rust and both were/are tight and rattle free.
>>
>
>Yabbut, don't I recall you being in Aridzona? You have to park IN your swimming
>pool to form rust on things there, or so I'm told.
Nope. Rusting is not allowed under Arizona waters. It's in the
Zonie Bylaws, Charlie. I saw it spelled out clear as day when
I lived there back in '72.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Scattered Showers My Ass! * Insightful Advertising Copy
* --Noah * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturing in the US has been declining for years and service
companies are on the rise. I usually try to buy the best quality.
I'd like to see more jobs in the US too.
On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
>I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
>current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
>nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
>and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
>Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
>you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
>stayed on the shelf.
>
>Brian Elfert
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>The last two Fords I've owned have been
>complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
>has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
>doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.
>
>The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
>and 12 years with no significant problems.
>
>You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?
You're throwing out the good along with the bad IMO.
Like you, I've had a few bad experiences with Fords. So I don't buy Fords
anymore. I *do* buy other American cars.
Our last four cars have been General Motors products of one type or another
(an Olds, two Buicks, and a GMC truck) and we have been quite happy with all
of them. One of these was an '84 Le Sabre that we bought in '91 at 55K miles,
and was still running fine when we sold it in '02 at 208K.
Every one of these has been much easier, and cheaper, to maintain than either
of the foreign cars I've had (a Mazda and a Fiat -- now *there* was a true
piece of crap: Fix It Again Today). So should I not buy foreign cars, because
of "that kind of track record"?
Don't see why I should, considering my positive experiences with GM cars...
but I won't rule it out, either (except in the case of Fiat).
--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
Interesting. According to them, Porter-Cable and Makita (among
others) make tools in America.
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:48:07 -0600, Jon Dough <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Of course the easy way is to check www.buyamerican.com!
-- jc
Published e-mail is strictly for spam collection.
To e-mail me, use jc631 at optonline dot net
John Carlson writes:
>Interesting. According to them, Porter-Cable and Makita (among
>others) make tools in America.
>
>On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:48:07 -0600, Jon Dough <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Of course the easy way is to check www.buyamerican.com!
>
Porter-Cable probably still does some here. Makita has long made small tools,
especially cordless, in, IIRC, a SC plant. (Might have been in Georgia--that
was a second year of tool company tours and some of them got scrambled in my
mind.) Toured it once a number of years ago. Impressive facility. At that time,
DeWalt was running an almost as impressive line in Towson, MD. That went
offshore, along with 1100 or more jobs.
Lots of changes in the industry in the past 5 years, with more and more
companies offering tools, with the tools being more and more alike, especially
at the cheap end of the scale, and almost all low end to middle range, and some
high range, tools now being manufactured elsewhere.
The jump in profit margins must be enormous because in many cases, prices are
maintained while production costs are cut by 50% or more.
Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America. So
it isn't the American worker.
Rich
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
> >pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
>
> The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
> don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
> a reasonable price.
>
> The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
> complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
> has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
> doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.
>
> The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
> and 12 years with no significant problems.
>
> You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:29:56 +0000 (UTC), Henry E Schaffer wrote:
>
> In article <%[email protected]>,
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I'd rather have a good tool that worry about somebody's job. ...
>
> This seems to translate to, "I've got mine."
>
>>You can vote with your dollars, but I'll vote for the specific tool for
>>the task, regardless of what country it was made in. ...
>
> It should be possible to have both - if people cared to buy high
> quality tools made in the USA, then they would be available. I'll pay
> more, and understand that some of that will come back to me.
The US has to forget "pile 'em high / sell 'em cheap" as a basis for
it's economy. With the demands in living standards that Americans
expect, you will be beaten into a bloody pulp by the developing
world if the US continues to try and pursue it.
You have to get into niche markets.
For instance in the UK we used to have large British owned car
manufacturers producing 100,000s of crappy cars every year. Now we
have a thriving industry supplying racing cars and engines for Indy,
F1 etc. All the large scale car manufacturing is Japanese.
The US has to get over the fact that it is going to lose it's
large-scale manufacturing base. Fixing the figures by driving your
economy through defense spending isn't going to work for
ever.....people will eventually get pissed off at being in a constant
state of war/state of fear and wont wear it. There are reports here
that more Americans are beginning to think that the war in Iraq was
not a very good idea and it can only be a matter of time before they
start questioning harder the given motives for it.
Imposing tarrifs on foreign imports can also only be a stop-gap
measure, so expect a farming crisis in your country in the not too
distant future.
The US economy growing at 7% a year, the Japanese and most European
economies pretty much stagnant? That's an imbalance that doesn't make
sense and can't go on forever whatever St. Alan Greenspan thinks.
To get back OT. Lie Nielsen is showing the way: small scale and value
added. Veritas also - very good customer service if the comments on
this group are anything to go by and good kit aswell.
--
Frank
The machine stops - EM Forster
Hi
Here's a spreadsheet I made up of some simple numbers for the choice
Dewalt might have had for their cabinet saw line. The "Hi Quality"
numbers is the "made in America" choice, the "Low Quality" is the
Taiwanesse route.
You can play around with it, but the example below is one possible
cost structure..Where Hi Quality cost is only $100 more than Lo
Quality...you need a lot more sales (40% more) to make the same
profits...If making it in China is very cheap then you don't need a
very large % increase in sales to match the Hi quality profit... In
fact if the cost to make in China is $650, you still make more money
on only a 10 % increase in sales.
Notes: My assumption is that at a lower price you will increase sales.
Also, there are many hidden risks that most companies ignore in "off
shoring" for the first time..such as currency fluctuations, foriegn
government meddling in factory ownership/regulations, labor, shipping,
etc.etc....
Sales Numbers
Hi Quality Qty 1000
Low Quality Qty 1400
Hi Quality Sale Price 1200
Lo Quality Sale Price 1000
Clost Numbers
Hi Quality Cost 850
Lo Quality Cost 750
Hi Quality Lo Quality
Net Sales $1,200,000.00 $1,400,000.00
Less Cost $850,000.00 $1,050,000.00
Gross Profit $350,000.00 $350,000.00
Put on your flameproof underwear. But as a tool and diemaker who has
seen my trade decimated in the last few years, I wholeheartedly agree
with you. That's why I bought a Unisaw that was made here. It seems like
the X5 series is Taiwanese, but the limited edition (phasing out) was
made here. I too would also rather pay a little more to keep some of
the manufacturing in the States.
Brian Elfert wrote:
> Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
> I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
> nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
> and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
> Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
> you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
> I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
> stayed on the shelf.
>
> Brian Elfert
On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
>I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
>current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
>nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
>and pay a bit more for my tools.
Check those tools...see where the steel and other parts come from.
>Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
>you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
>stayed on the shelf.
Are you limiting your boycott to just tools?
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:21:24 -0000, Rich Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>The last I checked, Stanley brand "slip joint pliers" were made offshore.
>The Channellock brand was still made here in the States.
I bought a Stanley FatMAX tape rule a couple of days ago and when I
got it home, noticed the tiny letters "Made in Indonesia" stamped on
the back. Shoulda bought a Lufkin.
Jeeeesss....
Greg
On 2004/1/6 12:09 PM, "John Carlson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Interesting. According to them, Porter-Cable and Makita (among
> others) make tools in America.
>
> On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:48:07 -0600, Jon Dough <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Of course the easy way is to check www.buyamerican.com!
In the area of manufactured goods, it is almost impossible to talk
meaningfully about a "American company" or "made in America" products. Many
of the companies that have been traditionally based in the US have become
multi-nationals with global operations, often manufacturing the same or
similar products in a number of countries. For years, it was common for
Asian car companies to import vehicles without back seats so that they would
be taxed at the lower truck rates, then bolt in a back seat and sell it as a
car. Consumer electronics devices might have all the electronic portions
built outside the US then inserted into cases to be sold here.
This whole discussion is quite meaningless. What we should do is be informed
consumers and look for quality and value in whatever we buy, no matter whot
he manufacturer is or whether the company is based in the US or not.
Lawsuit.
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> With manufacturing gone and farming gone, one wonders how will will earn
the
> money needed to buy all these things from overseas.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:50:25 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>Like you, I've had a few bad experiences with Fords. So I don't buy Fords
>>anymore. I *do* buy other American cars.
>
>I've had other American cars. 100% crap so far. I've had GM, Ford,
>Chevy and Cadillac. Not one has compared to that Toyota. Granted, I
>have a friend who has a '67 Dodge Dart that is still running (sort
>of), but of any car built in the last 25-30 years, I won't touch
>another American car until things change radically in the US
>automotive industry.
My first car was a '68 Dodge Dart, so I know whereof you speak. Just the same,
my '84 Buick LeSabre was a *much* more reliable car than the Dart. The Dart
went to the junkyard, dead, in 1984 at 163K miles. I sold the LeSabre, still
running fine, in 2001 at about 210K miles. My primary transportation now is an
'86 Suburban with 177K miles. It's in *far* better shape than the Dart was at
that age. And it has 4WD, air conditioning, stereo, and full power
accessories, too, all of which the Dart lacked. It's a much more complex
piece of machinery, and has given me much less trouble. SWMBO drives a '96
Buick Roadmaster (112K so far), and we've had remarkably little trouble.
My experiences with foreign cars drove me back to buying American. The Fiat
X-1/9 is a beautiful car, and it's a blast to drive, but it's just a pretty
piece of junk: constant breakdowns, stupid engineering, flimsy construction,
expensive parts. The next one was a Mazda RX7. Very reliable, hardly ever gave
a problem -- but when it *did* need repair, that car was a cast iron bitch to
maintain, even using a factory service manual. *Nothing* was easy to reach,
and *everything* was expensive. I'll give them one thing, though: I've *never*
seen a better-written repair manual, for any product, anywhere.
I like my Buicks. Not a lot of trouble. Yeah, they break occasionally, more
often than the Mazda, less than the Dart, *way* less than the Fiat. But they
cost a lot less to fix than the Mazda or the Fiat. I'm content. YMMV.
--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
On 10-Nov-2003, Dr. Know <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
> >gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America. So
> >it isn't the American worker.
>
> It's the American bean counters and Wall Street investors wanting to
> make a quick profit - something for nothing.
Saw something on the Discovery Channel recently - Ford is spending a
gazzillion bucks to make their F-150 sound "tough". That's right, the
"engineers" are spending their time tuning the sound of the engine,
engine compartment and passenger compartment to make the sound of
the engine "ideal" for the dickheads that think sound (rather than
quiet) is important. No improvements in reliability, fuel economy,
power-to-weight, life or any other tangible improvement. Just make
it sound good.
The Economist (British news weekly) predicts that Ford will be the
next American auto maker to go under, probably within a few years
if things don't turn around. With management decisions like "make
it sound tough" instead of "build a better vehicle", it's no wonder.
I bought a Japanese car made two hour's drive from where I live.
> The bubble will burst.
But not before the richest bean counters die of old age.
Mike
Absolutely not the American Factory Worker but maybe the engineers who
design stuff to planned obsolescence.
You don't spec it to last, it won't last no matter who or where it is built.
"RKON" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71Vrb.3113$vJ3.312@okepread05...
> I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
> gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America.
So
> it isn't the American worker.
>
> Rich
> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
> > >pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
> >
> > The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
> > don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
> > a reasonable price.
> >
> > The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
> > complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
> > has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
> > doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.
> >
> > The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
> > and 12 years with no significant problems.
> >
> > You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?
>
>
I'll pay more when it's worth it. I've got a Toyota, too... (I think it
might have been built here, but I really don't care as long as it is
superior quality, which it is!)
dave
Henry E Schaffer wrote:
> In article <%[email protected]>,
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'd rather have a good tool that worry about somebody's job. ...
>
>
> This seems to translate to, "I've got mine."
>
>
>>You can vote with your dollars, but I'll vote for the specific tool for
>>the task, regardless of what country it was made in. ...
>
>
> It should be possible to have both - if people cared to buy high
> quality tools made in the USA, then they would be available. I'll pay
> more, and understand that some of that will come back to me.
Good attitude. Fuck everybody, I've got mine. Seems that's how we got here.
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dr. Know <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
> >pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
>
> >For many years I refused to buy Chinese crap, but the stores kept
> >filling up with more and more of it - it's hard to stem the tide of
> >consumers who don't give a crap - until THEIR jobs disappear. Most
> >are oblivious to this trend occurring. They select products on price
>
> I work for a newspaper. Unless everything goes to the web, we'll still be
> around. So many people like to read real paper that newspapers will be
> around for some time yet.
>
> Retailers still need to advertise no matter where they get the good, so my
> job is reasonably secure.
>
> Brian Elfert
Not many, costs too much to produce them here, plus, if you make a tool
to last a long time then you can't sell many of them. Have you noted
that cars last until you make your last payment, then fall to pieces?
We are digging ourselves into a huge hole.
Brian Elfert wrote:
> Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
> Brian Elfert
Blame it on the greedy executives!!!
John <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Blame the Unions!!
>
> Years ago when there was not much government regulations, companies
> could do and treat people anyway they wanted. Unions then helped
> people.
>
> Education, regulations, and the workplace has gotten 10x better and
> safer. Now companies spend billions either paying extra $$'s because
> of unions, or spending the money keeping a union out.
>
> I have worked across the US in manufacturing and have found the
> quality of union work to be worse than non-union work. Union workers
> are not motivated like non union workers are.
>
> I have worked union and non-union contractors on the same job and the
> nonunion contractor does equal or better work and is much more
> flexible.
>
> Why an educated worker needs someone to represent them, I don't know
> or understand.
>
> What I do know is that companies closing their doors and moving their
> operations to Mexico or China, are mostly union based companies.
>
> In my own company we have union and non union plants. Those plants
> that are non union are consistently more productive, efficient, have
> less waste, and are more engaged than the union plants.
>
> Unions are a real waste to our economy.
>
> If you are in a union, ask yourself why it is that you need someone to
> represent you and when your company moves operations to the south,
> Mexico, or China, how much you got in that last strike helped that
> company make that decision.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
> >
> >I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> >current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a
real
> >nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
> >and pay a bit more for my tools.
> >
> >Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
> >you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
> >
> >I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> >promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> >more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> >buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
> >stayed on the shelf.
> >
> >Brian Elfert
>
Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net> wrote:
> Not many, costs too much to produce them here, plus, if you make a tool
> to last a long time then you can't sell many of them. Have you noted
> that cars last until you make your last payment, then fall to pieces?
> We are digging ourselves into a huge hole.
>
You are either financing your cars over longer than a 10
year period, abusing them, or buying crap.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:3fafe433$0$75901
> I work for a newspaper. Unless everything goes to the web, we'll still be
> around. So many people like to read real paper that newspapers will be
> around for some time yet.
>
> Retailers still need to advertise no matter where they get the good, so my
> job is reasonably secure.
>
> Brian Elfert
Still be around, but less of you. Newspaper circulation has been in decline
for some years now. People would rather watch the news on TV or listen on
the radio during their commute. I can think of a dozen major cities that
have lost at least one of their papers in the past 10 or 15 years.
Ed
Did anyone answer Brian's original question without going into a
union/non-union tirade ?
Thanks !
Jerry
>
> On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>>
>>I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
>>current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
>>nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
>>and pay a bit more for my tools.
>>
>>Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
>>you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>>
>>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
>>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
>>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
>>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
>>stayed on the shelf.
>>
>>Brian Elfert
>
>
http://www.shopsmith.com/
I think they still make everything in Dayton, OH Great customer service
department. Nice folks to deal with.
DexAZ
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
> I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
> nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
> and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
> Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
> you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
> I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
> stayed on the shelf.
>
> Brian Elfert
"Frank Shute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:03:21 GMT, Brian Henderson wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:57:14 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Depends on whether you want to circulate your money back into this
> >>economy or build yet another foreign world empire.
> >
> > Since most 'foreign' cars are built in the US by US workers, I don't
> > have to worry about it. It's the design and management that makes the
> > difference. US auto makers want to crank out cheap crap at inflated
> > prices. Foreign auto makers produce quality cars at reasonable
> > prices. Which one should I choose? Planned obsolescence in 3 years?
> > A company that wastes millions to make their car SOUND powerful? Or a
> > reliable, well-built, well-designed car that will go as far as I need
> > it to without breaking the bank?
>
> I've got a theory that the more a car manufacturer spends on
> advertising the more useless their cars are. In the UK Ford is at the
> top of the heap in terms of advertising! (....and producing useless
> cars IMHO)
>
> BTW, Ford did a study on the effects of customer disatisfaction some
> years ago and they found that on average a pissed off customer would
> tell 8 potential customers that they were pissed off with Ford. That
> ratio must have increased vastly since the dawn of the Internet.
>
> Ford are going to go bust, it's just a matter of time. They've been
> palming off over-priced sh*te on customers for too many years.
>
> It's unbelievable that a company that pioneered in a variety of areas
> of manufacturing (including quality control!) should go down the
> toilet.
>
> BTW, I own a Nissan (built in the UK - the Japs send their engineers
> abroad to sort things out though) & I couldn't be happier with it.
>
> --
And yet the largest selling single model vehicle, (at least in the US) is
the Ford F-150 pickup. I have a '97 Ford, with a Triton V-8 and 125,000
miles. There isn't a rust spot on the vehicle. The interior, after a clean
up, shows NO visible signs of wear. Everything still works, including the
air conditioner.
It still has the ORIGINAL spark plugs installed. (I was going to have them
changed about 15K miles ago, but the mechanic, after pulling a couple of
them, said there was simply no legitimate reason to change them.)
It has NOT been maintnenace free. I had to have a cracked head gasket
replaced at 110K, so I had them both replaced. It has had a new battery,
and is now on it's (new) third set of tires. The air conditioner has to be
recharged every other year, now, so there is some leakage.
If and when I do have to replace the truck, which will probably (hopefully)
not be in the near future, I'll be right back to that Ford dealership.
James.....
In article <[email protected]>, "Michael Daly" <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 11-Nov-2003, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>> The Fiat X-1/9 [...] Mazda RX7
>
>Not exactly prime examples of what most of us would point to
>when talking about reliable imports. Italian cars make the
>old Lucas-equipped Brit cars look good. The RX7 was a novelty
>after the fiasco Mazda had with the rotary engines in the 70's.
>
As I noted (in parts that you snipped), the RX7 was _more_ reliable than my
American cars; it rarely gave trouble, but _when_it_did_ it was a royal PITA
to fix.
Your comparison of the Fiat to the "old Lucas-equipped Brit[ish] cars" brought
to mind an incident I had all but forgotten. Driving it in the rain one
afternoon, with the rear-window defogger on, and the ventilation fan and the
windshield wipers on high speed, suddenly everything went dead when I hit the
turn signal. The moron designers had put all that on a single 15A circuit, and
the fuse popped.
--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
LOL, Actually, you can blame it on both.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
"Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Blame it on the greedy executives!!!
> John <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Blame the Unions!!
> >
> > Years ago when there was not much government regulations, companies
> > could do and treat people anyway they wanted. Unions then helped
> > people.
> >
> > Education, regulations, and the workplace has gotten 10x better and
> > safer. Now companies spend billions either paying extra $$'s because
> > of unions, or spending the money keeping a union out.
> >
> > I have worked across the US in manufacturing and have found the
> > quality of union work to be worse than non-union work. Union workers
> > are not motivated like non union workers are.
> >
> > I have worked union and non-union contractors on the same job and the
> > nonunion contractor does equal or better work and is much more
> > flexible.
> >
> > Why an educated worker needs someone to represent them, I don't know
> > or understand.
> >
> > What I do know is that companies closing their doors and moving their
> > operations to Mexico or China, are mostly union based companies.
> >
> > In my own company we have union and non union plants. Those plants
> > that are non union are consistently more productive, efficient, have
> > less waste, and are more engaged than the union plants.
> >
> > Unions are a real waste to our economy.
> >
> > If you are in a union, ask yourself why it is that you need someone to
> > represent you and when your company moves operations to the south,
> > Mexico, or China, how much you got in that last strike helped that
> > company make that decision.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
> > >
> > >I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> > >current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a
> real
> > >nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the
USA
> > >and pay a bit more for my tools.
> > >
> > >Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA
unless
> > >you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> > >promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> > >more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> > >buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so
those
> > >stayed on the shelf.
> > >
> > >Brian Elfert
> >
>
>
IIRC, Dewalt closed all of their US factories and is producing
everything in Asia.
Jon Dough wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:17:34 +0000, JAW wrote:
>
>
>>Did anyone answer Brian's original question without going into a
>>union/non-union tirade ?
>>
>>Thanks !
>>Jerry
>
>
> After getting involved in the union side of this issue I think I should
> answer this one also.
> Yes, there are many tools still made in the good ole USA.
> For hand tools, the first that comes to mind is SnapOn. They are high
> priced but top notch for quality and service. For the mechanics that do
> not need the SnapOn experience Craftsman brand hand tools are also made in
> USA.
> As for power tools, several companies that come to mind are Delta, Dewalt,
> Porter Cable and Powermatic. While they also have manufacturing plants in
> other countries (as well they should because they market to other
> countries too) their top of the line tools sold in the USA are made in the
> USA. I even saw Hobart welders (made in USA) on the shelf at Harbor
> Freight the other day.
> There are many good tools to choose from. When I need something for a
> weekend project any tool that gets the job done is fine. But for my job I
> need tools I can depend on. I want something that is good quality, built
> here and serviced here by technicians who have parts readily available. I
> definitely look for the Made in USA label.
On 10 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:
> I'd rather have a good tool that worry about somebody's job. Those
> folks have to eat to, Brian! :) I love my Powermatic BS.
>
> You can vote with your dollars, but I'll vote for the specific tool
> for the task, regardless of what country it was made in. Perhaps your
> "American Made" tools were made in the continental US, but were made
> by Vietnamese, Mexicans, Japanese, Chinese, Canadians, English,
> Germans, Italians, and yes, perhaps even a Taiwanese or two?
>
> Find something else to obsess over.
Gesundheit.
Dr. Know <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
> <snip>
>
> Not much...
> I was shocked to find my Dewalt cordless screwdriver (Christmas
> present) was made in China. And my $500 jointer, etc., etc.
>
> You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
> pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
>
> For many years I refused to buy Chinese crap, but the stores kept
> filling up with more and more of it - it's hard to stem the tide of
> consumers who don't give a crap - until THEIR jobs disappear. Most
> are oblivious to this trend occurring. They select products on price
> and packaging alone - and a year later, when it is lining the local
> landfill, line up at the local Target to buy more...
>
> There are still the industrial MFGs, but I haven't actually checked
> lately that a Wilton DP or other such brands are still made in the
> USA. Most heavy iron work seems to be coming from Eastern Europe and
> China these days. It's a trend that is overwhelming. First we built
> Japan into a world empire, then Taiwan, South Korea, and now China.
> And my personal standard of living is nowhere close to what my dad
> maintained. Our boom industries are insurance fraud (chiropractors
> and lawyers) and prisons.
>
> JMHO,
> Greg
>
The last I checked, Stanley brand "slip joint pliers" were made offshore.
The Channellock brand was still made here in the States.
r
--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.
Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
>>pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
>
> The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
> don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
> a reasonable price.
>
> The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
> complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
> has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
> doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.
>
> The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
> and 12 years with no significant problems.
>
> You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?
I have had nothing but German iron sitting in my driveway for the last 15
years. Ford's rate last in my book as well.
r
--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.
B a r r y B u r k e J r . <[email protected]> wrote
in news:[email protected]:
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:45:26 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:21:24 -0000, Rich Andrews <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>The last I checked, Stanley brand "slip joint pliers" were made
offshore.
>>>The Channellock brand was still made here in the States.
>>
>>I bought a Stanley FatMAX tape rule a couple of days ago and when I
>>got it home, noticed the tiny letters "Made in Indonesia" stamped on
>>the back. Shoulda bought a Lufkin.
>>
>>Jeeeesss....
>>
>>Greg
>
>
> Stanley tried to move their corporate address to Bermuda last year.
>
> All for a tax dodge! <G>
>
> Barry
>
Rumor has it that American Airlines pays it's employees from the Cayman
Islands to save on payroll taxes.
r
--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.
B a r r y B u r k e J r . <[email protected]> wrote
in news:[email protected]:
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:53:11 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Somebody wrote:
>>
>>> I have had nothing but German iron sitting in my driveway for the last
15
>>> years.
>>
>>My condolences if they are Volkswagen.
>
> Ya' beat me to it.
>
> Unfortunately, some of Volkswagen's problems seem to be creeping to
> Audi. Case in point: The ignition coil recall that both companies
> denied for years.
>
> Barry
>
No, they are not VW. I predict that the Audi A4's will depreciate in
value quite rapidly. To change the water punp or timing belt on their V6,
one has to remove the engine. I may have to go with the other german car
company but I assure you it won't be a 7 series. The 7 series is
outragously expensive to maintain.
r
--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.
[email protected] (Renata) wrote in news:3fb1063e.1142073324
@news.newsguy.com:
> THere was an article recently (in the WashPost, I think) about all the
> Beemers at Cosco. According to their study, wealthier people want to
> pay the low price for stuff they don't really care about, but are
> willing to spend the extra dough on stuff that's important to them
> (e.g. cars, fancy gourmet kitchen, etc.).
>
> Personally, I kinda think that's true across the board, though, of
> course, those with less money have less of a choice to spend the
> greater sums.
>
> Now, the question that I've had for a while, since I saw that the new
> X5 version of the DJ20 jointer isn't made here, is as follows: Delta
> has established a reputation as a pretty good ww machinery maker. So,
> when you haul your manufacturing op oversees, because it's CHEAPER,
> the assumption can't help but being that the quality is degraded.
Maybe the quality will go down short term, but up in the long term.
When I was a kid, my dad told me to never buy a tool that
had "Made in Japan" stamped on it. He was right back then, but wrong now.
> Why
> the heck wouldn't Delta want to do everything possible to maintain
> their rep, and thus justify somewhat higher prices (i.e. aim at the
> more exclusive market niche rather than the masses), rather than
> bowing to the ever prevalent modus operandi of cheap(er) Chinese junk?
Ten years ago Chinese products were junk. Today they are not junk, but
lower quality. Ten years from now, I would be willing to bet, they
will be making high quality stuff.
> i.e. if they could maintain their reputation, which has apparently
> sagged of late, they could justify the higher price and say we got Jet
> beat on our quality, robustness, etc. While some might say, well, I'm
> just a home woodworker and don't need the extra robustness, surely
> there are enough folks out there after the extra quality that they
> don't have to surrender?
Don't you think Delta has considered that?
> Renata
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:19:16 GMT, "@sbc(nospam)global.net"
> <""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote:
>
>>Put on your flameproof underwear. But as a tool and diemaker who has
>>seen my trade decimated in the last few years, I wholeheartedly agree
>>with you. That's why I bought a Unisaw that was made here. It seems
like
>>the X5 series is Taiwanese, but the limited edition (phasing out) was
>>made here. I too would also rather pay a little more to keep some of
>>the manufacturing in the States.
>>
>
>
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:45:26 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:21:24 -0000, Rich Andrews <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>>The last I checked, Stanley brand "slip joint pliers" were made offshore.
>>The Channellock brand was still made here in the States.
>
>I bought a Stanley FatMAX tape rule a couple of days ago and when I
>got it home, noticed the tiny letters "Made in Indonesia" stamped on
>the back. Shoulda bought a Lufkin.
>
>Jeeeesss....
>
>Greg
Stanley tried to move their corporate address to Bermuda last year.
All for a tax dodge! <G>
Barry
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:12:11 -0500, Silvan wrote:
>
> Frank Shute wrote:
>
>> that more Americans are beginning to think that the war in Iraq was
>> not a very good idea and it can only be a matter of time before they
>> start questioning harder the given motives for it.
>
> Some of us questioned the motives from the beginning.
Sure but from what I read the number is growing.
>
>> Imposing tarrifs on foreign imports can also only be a stop-gap
>> measure, so expect a farming crisis in your country in the not too
>> distant future.
>
> With manufacturing gone and farming gone, one wonders how will will earn the
> money needed to buy all these things from overseas.
>
It won't go entirely, it will just downsize. To buy things from abroad
to meet demand, you're already expanding the national debt ie.
borrowing from foreigners.
Eventually foreigners will suspect that you can't service that
debt/your economy is in trouble and stop buying treasury bonds. I
don't expect the US will end up a basket-case like Argentina though ;)
Expect further devaluation of the dollar and a medium to long term
rise in unemployment.
What worries me is social anarchy in the US. The imbalance between
rich & poor seems set to widen, yet you can't keep a lid on that
forever by just throwing the dispossessed into prison when they try
and restore some balance by wielding their 45s.
If I lived in the US, I'd be looking to sell up & move abroad whilst
the going is fairly good & the dollar is still worth something.
--
Frank
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:00:50 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:50:25 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>Like you, I've had a few bad experiences with Fords. So I don't buy Fords
>>anymore. I *do* buy other American cars.
>
>I've had other American cars. 100% crap so far. I've had GM, Ford,
>Chevy and Cadillac.
I have a company-provided 2001 Chevy Cavalier LS that GM should have
been ashamed to sell. What a complete piece of garbage. We have a
fleet of them, in addition to some Malibus, and as each set of cars
hits certain mileage numbers, say 10k, 20k, etc... It's really neat
watching them all fail in identical ways. It's almost like watching a
Consumer Reports reliability survey live! <G>
FWIW, the Cavalier rates "poor" in frontal-offset crashes, and we're
in a downsizing mode, so maybe they choose them for a reason. <G>
Barry
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:53:11 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Somebody wrote:
>
>> I have had nothing but German iron sitting in my driveway for the last 15
>> years.
>
>My condolences if they are Volkswagen.
Ya' beat me to it.
Unfortunately, some of Volkswagen's problems seem to be creeping to
Audi. Case in point: The ignition coil recall that both companies
denied for years.
Barry
In article <%[email protected]>,
Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'd rather have a good tool that worry about somebody's job. ...
This seems to translate to, "I've got mine."
>You can vote with your dollars, but I'll vote for the specific tool for
>the task, regardless of what country it was made in. ...
It should be possible to have both - if people cared to buy high
quality tools made in the USA, then they would be available. I'll pay
more, and understand that some of that will come back to me.
--
--henry schaffer
[email protected]
> > BT W - Take a look at the recent prices for Chinese art; genuine
> > stuff, not export trade or modern tat. A vase sold recently (New York
> > ?) for $300K,to a Chinese eel farmer. There's money in China now, and
> > they're wanting their heritage back.
> >
>
> Which is the ultimate irony.
>
> Mao destroyed billions of dollars worth of chinese antiquities in his
> "cultrual revolution". He felt that all those old things would restrict
> their movement into a modern communist state. If he had not destroyed all
> these precious artifacts, China would have untold wealth available to
> itself.
>
That's ok, a billion doesn't go that far anymore anyway.
Haven't seen the Queen pawning the crown jewels either...
-Jack
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:14:39 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>My mountain bike is 6 years old now. Chinese titanium,
>Habanero?
Yes.
On 11-Nov-2003, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> The Fiat X-1/9 [...] Mazda RX7
Not exactly prime examples of what most of us would point to
when talking about reliable imports. Italian cars make the
old Lucas-equipped Brit cars look good. The RX7 was a novelty
after the fiasco Mazda had with the rotary engines in the 70's.
Mike
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> With the news being reported on the fast media, the only thing available to
> the print folks is to expand the story, which they do, within space
> limitations, presuming you, as they, know the overview.
>
> Couldn't agree more that story selection, facts selected in support, and
> general slant of the print medium, as with other media, is to sell soap.
> With that in mind, they stick to the tried-and-true formula that all gains
> are ill-gotten, the individual is always the victim of circumstance, and the
> only way to "beat the system" is with their support and guidance.
>
> Last night's here featured articles on why we need steel tariffs to protect
> our mining industry, which contrasted sharply with the reportage on a group
> of malodorous "green" malcontents trying to prevent further mineral
> exploration, lest there be a mine opening....
If we can't do it cheaper, why should we do it? Comparative advantage
makes us all wealthier, so we should import steel from those who make
it cheaper, and enrich our manufacturing industries. Protecting one
industry just hurts another, and often by more than you help your
protectorate.
Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
> I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
> nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
> and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
> Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
> you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
> I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
> stayed on the shelf.
>
> Brian Elfert
General makes a 15" bandsaw in North America (Canada) that's well regarded.
They also have a imported line that comes from the far east.
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> ...and so will I. My '83 F150 had 175,000 on it when it was stolen out of
> my driveway.
Rat bastards!
> I did all the maintenance on it and never had to add oil
> between changes every 5000 miles. It was a 4.9L straight six with an
> overdrive manual transmission.
I had the 4.9L in a '92 E150 and it ran like a top with good gas
mileage and plenty of pep when hauling a load or climbing a hill (or
both). It was a high quality vehicle all around. Now I have an '01
F150 with the 4.2L V6 and I can't say I'm particularly pleased with
it. The engine is a dog and the payload capacity seems to be pretty
wimpy. There are also a lot of little things that make me question
what the design team was thinking. Now they're touting the '04 models
as being 'almost like a car.' Sh!t, if you want a car, why buy a
truck?
Cheers,
Mike
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:36:26 -0700, Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net>
wrote:
>Not many, costs too much to produce them here, plus, if you make a tool
>to last a long time then you can't sell many of them. Have you noted
>that cars last until you make your last payment, then fall to pieces?
>We are digging ourselves into a huge hole.
>
Ah, my Japanese car is over 20 years old. My brother always buys
American cars, but buys a new one every three years because they keep
falling apart. He makes more money than I do.
On 10 Nov 2003 19:20:42 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>"George" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>If you're a grandpa, you must remember the three-year vehicle. So you've
>>picked a bad example, in my opinion. I'm _glad_ they don't make 'em like
>>they used to. I'm running about eight/ten years in salt country right now,
>>and 150K+, which was unheard of when I was a kid.
>
>Cars are much better now. Minnesota used to be the land of the rust
>bucket. Now, in general, more cars succumb to accidents than to rust. I
>rarely see a rust bucket anymore unless it is pretty old like 1980s
>vintage.
And why do you think that is? Do you think that the American car
manufacturers did that of their own accord?
Volkswagen started the trend for quality in this country...back in the
early 60's. The U.S. car makers HAD to jump on the band wagon...so
they finally started makin' economical cars.
International competition is a good thing. And, for the most part in
this modern world...its unavoidable.
Many so-called 'foreign' products are built in the U.S...and the
reverse is also true.
Is Honda a foreign product? Is Chrysler an American product?
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:37:36 GMT, Manny Davis <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Ten years ago Chinese products were junk. Today they are not junk, but
>lower quality. Ten years from now, I would be willing to bet, they
>will be making high quality stuff.
My mountain bike is 6 years old now. Chinese titanium, and a beautiful
piece of work. If there's a call for it, China can deliver real
quality.
BT W - Take a look at the recent prices for Chinese art; genuine
stuff, not export trade or modern tat. A vase sold recently (New York
?) for $300K,to a Chinese eel farmer. There's money in China now, and
they're wanting their heritage back.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
On 12 Nov 2003 18:49:44 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>what the design team was thinking. Now they're touting the '04 models
>as being 'almost like a car.' Sh!t, if you want a car, why buy a
>truck?
>
>Cheers,
>Mike
Exactly my argument with many SUV and truck buyers of the last 10
years.
That thinking has led to such awesome vehicles as the Ford Explorer
Sport Trac, all those short and medium wheelbase quad cab "trucks"
with 3' beds, and the Tupperware Avalanche.
Barry
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:19:41 -0500, "RKON"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
>gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America. So
>it isn't the American worker.
My last two "imports", a 2001 Subaru and 1996 Nissan were made in the
USA. The fit and finish of the Subaru is excellent, the Nissan was
crap. The reliability of each has followed the fit and finish.
The Nissan came from New Smyrna, TN, the Subaru from Indiana. I've
always wondered if, of the two plants, both, neither, or either is UAW
represented?
Barry
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:50:25 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>Like you, I've had a few bad experiences with Fords. So I don't buy Fords
>anymore. I *do* buy other American cars.
I've had other American cars. 100% crap so far. I've had GM, Ford,
Chevy and Cadillac. Not one has compared to that Toyota. Granted, I
have a friend who has a '67 Dodge Dart that is still running (sort
of), but of any car built in the last 25-30 years, I won't touch
another American car until things change radically in the US
automotive industry.
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:50:05 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Still be around, but less of you. Newspaper circulation has been in decline
>for some years now. People would rather watch the news on TV or listen on
>the radio during their commute. I can think of a dozen major cities that
>have lost at least one of their papers in the past 10 or 15 years.
>Ed
Here in CT, many of the newspapers have consolidated or been run off
by a the nationally owned Hartford Courant
The New Haven Register, New Britain Herald, Middletown Press, and
several others are all pretty much the same paper
Barry
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
wrote:
>You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
>pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
a reasonable price.
The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.
The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
and 12 years with no significant problems.
You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:46:41 +0000, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>My mountain bike is 6 years old now. Chinese titanium, and a beautiful
>piece of work. If there's a call for it, China can deliver real
>quality.
Habanero?
My Giant VT-1, a $3000 aluminum Chinese made mountain bike is
excellent!
Barry
On 11 Nov 2003 12:51:08 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Trent© <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
>>>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
>>>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
>>>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
>>>stayed on the shelf.
>
>>Are you limiting your boycott to just tools?
>
>There is a lot of stuff I simply couldn't buy period if everything I
>bought was made in the USA.
>
>Brian Elfert
That's my point.
Why are you singling out tools?
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:29:15 GMT, "Michael Daly"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>On 10-Nov-2003, Trent© <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Do you think that the American car
>> manufacturers did that of their own accord?
>> [...]
>>
>> International competition is a good thing.
>
>I'd almost agree, except that most tangible improvements in
>safety, fuel economy and such were the result of Congress,
>not Detroit.
Actually, I doubt if anybody in Congress has or ever had the knowledge
or expertise to even ENVISION any of these improvements, Mike.
Probably most of the ideas came from other countries...most notably
Germany and England. Fuel economy for cars would still be a dream if
it weren't for Volkswagen...and the subsequent imports from other
countries.
>If it were up to the idiots in Detroit, they'd
>still be selling steel dashboards, non-collapsible steering
>columns, cars that disintegrate on impact
Actually, cars are supposed to disintegrate on impact...to be safe.
That's the principle behind it all. Just watch some of the wrecks on
NASCAR, etc. When the car resists all that force, its your body that
hasta take the blunt of it. Not good.
A good example...although not with cars...
I don't think Harley is building any bikes yet with air bags...or with
ABS brakes. But their available in other countries.
International competition is a good thing.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:39:08 +0000, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:14:39 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>My mountain bike is 6 years old now. Chinese titanium,
>
>>Habanero?
>
>Yes.
Nice bike!
Barry
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:19:16 GMT, "@sbc(nospam)global.net"
<""Nobody\"@sbc(nospam)global.net"> wrote:
>Put on your flameproof underwear. But as a tool and diemaker who has
>seen my trade decimated in the last few years, I wholeheartedly agree
>with you. That's why I bought a Unisaw that was made here. It seems like
>the X5 series is Taiwanese, but the limited edition (phasing out) was
>made here. I too would also rather pay a little more to keep some of
>the manufacturing in the States.
But, in reality, yer helping finance their plan to push more
manufacturing to Taiwan.
And I think you and most everyone else here is confusing 'made' in
America with 'assembled' in America. I'm not sure of the ratio, but I
think most of our steel comes from overseas.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:45:26 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:21:24 -0000, Rich Andrews <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>>The last I checked, Stanley brand "slip joint pliers" were made offshore.
>>The Channellock brand was still made here in the States.
>
>I bought a Stanley FatMAX tape rule a couple of days ago and when I
>got it home, noticed the tiny letters "Made in Indonesia" stamped on
>the back. Shoulda bought a Lufkin.
>
>Jeeeesss....
>
>Greg
Take it back...if you feel that strongly about it.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:19:41 -0500, "RKON"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
>gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America. So
>it isn't the American worker.
It's the American bean counters and Wall Street investors wanting to
make a quick profit - something for nothing.
The bubble will burst.
Greg
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:48:42 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
>>pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.
>
>The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
>don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
>a reasonable price.
Ahhh, but they speak with the language of CHEAP. No matter that the
product falls apart in 6 months.
I DO, however, like to keep my neighbors employed and their homes off
the courthouse steps.
>The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
>complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
>has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
>doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.
Hmmm, I have 3 Fords. But I stay away from mechanics and do the work
myself. And yes, their 4R70W transmission had a number of problems.
I bought a T-Bird cheap because 3 previous techs failed to properly
repair this car. That is 3 trannys in 80,000 miles!
I overhauled it myself, upgraded the problem points - so far, no
problems. It even chirps second when I get on it... ;-)
>The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
>and 12 years with no significant problems.
I have a '79 Toyota Supra with 360,000 miles and a Peugeot with
510,000 miles. But try finding parts... ;-)
>You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?
Depends on whether you want to circulate your money back into this
economy or build yet another foreign world empire.
Oops... too late...
Greg
Dr. Know writes:
>Depends on whether you want to circulate your money back into this
>economy or build yet another foreign world empire.
>
>Oops... too late...
Way too late in a lot of cases.
The U.S. has never produced a viable professional camera outside the big boxes
(4x5, 5x7, 8x10). Thus, I've always had to use foreign gear, usually Japanese
because when I started, German cameras were (and remain) outrageously
expensive, as were Swiss (is the Alpa still made?). Digital cameras are about
the same: just checked the base of my Minolta 7i. It was made in Malaysia.
Off-road motorcycles are another arena the U.S. never entered.
I don't know, but I'd guess these 4 wheel ATVs are all foreign made.
It often isn't a matter of choosing between circulating money back into the
economy at all. With the first example, I would have been unable to make a
living if I'd refused to buy foreign. With the second, I could have chosen a
different recreation, I guess. Dunno what hunters and others do about ATVs. I
don't have one, don't want one, but note that all the brand names I see were
once Japanese companies. Probably most of them made in Georgia or Manila.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
[email protected] (Charlie Self) writes:
>Off-road motorcycles are another arena the U.S. never entered.
>I don't know, but I'd guess these 4 wheel ATVs are all foreign made.
Polaris makes ATVs in the USA. They now sell more ATVs than Snowmobiles.
Brian Elfert
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:21:56 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
>choose to drive.
You have exactly the right vehicle. I'm not talking about you.
My point was that the "soccer mom" market is driving the SUV designers
to make them more and more car-like. Oddly enough, this makes the
SUV less usable to people like you, who WANT the truck features. I
also own an SUV that goes off-road, as well as an AWD car that stays
on the road.
The soccer mom buys an SUV to appear outdoorsy, rugged, non-soccer
momish. Why else would someone install "appearance only" bash guards
all over the vehicle. The bash guards are right up there with the
fake roll bars on the pickups of the 70's and 80's. It's all about
apperances to them. Obviously, that's not you.
Barry
No, there isn't. People, on average, are more likely to buy cheap than buy
quality. If they can get cheap and quality, great. If not, they will settle
for just cheap.
"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
While some might say, well, I'm
> just a home woodworker and don't need the extra robustness, surely
> there are enough folks out there after the extra quality that they
> don't have to surrender?
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:05:24 -0500, "George"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>If you're a grandpa, you must remember the three-year vehicle. So you've
>picked a bad example, in my opinion. I'm _glad_ they don't make 'em like
>they used to. I'm running about eight/ten years in salt country right now,
>and 150K+, which was unheard of when I was a kid.
If you got 60M miles on a set of rings, you were lucky!
It use ta take 6 hours back then...to get an STP oil change! lol
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2003 18:49:44 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>>>what the design team was thinking. Now they're touting the '04 models
>>as being 'almost like a car.' Sh!t, if you want a car, why buy a
>>truck?
>
> Exactly my argument with many SUV and truck buyers of the last 10
> years.
I know a woman who got a SUV (Blazer?) and had two 'accidents' in 3 years.
Seems she thought she was in something car like she was driving a car.
Wound up on her top twice.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:57:14 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Depends on whether you want to circulate your money back into this
>economy or build yet another foreign world empire.
Since most 'foreign' cars are built in the US by US workers, I don't
have to worry about it. It's the design and management that makes the
difference. US auto makers want to crank out cheap crap at inflated
prices. Foreign auto makers produce quality cars at reasonable
prices. Which one should I choose? Planned obsolescence in 3 years?
A company that wastes millions to make their car SOUND powerful? Or a
reliable, well-built, well-designed car that will go as far as I need
it to without breaking the bank?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:00:36 -0000, Rich Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Rumor has it that American Airlines pays it's employees from the Cayman
>Islands to save on payroll taxes.
Pah ! Last year the UK tax office (our IRS) sold all their buildings
to a Bermuda-based tax-dodge company. Even the bloody taxman is on
the fiddle !
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 02:28:23 +0000,
[email protected] (Frank Shute) wrote:
<snip>
>
>To get back OT. Lie Nielsen is showing the way: small scale and value
>added. Veritas also - very good customer service if the comments on
>this group are anything to go by and good kit aswell.
Now there's a brand of a few Lie Nielson planes I'd like to own.
Don't care where they are made, I still want them! But, first I need
employment...still waiting for the last stage of recovery I guess.
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 02:52:30 +0000, John wrote:
> Blame the Unions!!
>
> Years ago when there was not much government regulations, companies
> could do and treat people anyway they wanted. Unions then helped
> people.
Obviously this is a person who has never looked beyond the end of his nose
toward politics, human rights, nor the good of workers and communities. I
have a union job. It pays much better than the last nonunion job I had. I
have good health insurance, a retirement plan, and can take a couple of
weeks per year to spend time with my family on a vacation. Many companys
have unions because, in the past, the company DID treat people any way
they wanted and could do anything they wanted. You readily admit that
unions have helped people in the past. Unions are still helping people,
more than ever before.
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:17:34 +0000, JAW wrote:
> Did anyone answer Brian's original question without going into a
> union/non-union tirade ?
>
> Thanks !
> Jerry
After getting involved in the union side of this issue I think I should
answer this one also.
Yes, there are many tools still made in the good ole USA.
For hand tools, the first that comes to mind is SnapOn. They are high
priced but top notch for quality and service. For the mechanics that do
not need the SnapOn experience Craftsman brand hand tools are also made in
USA.
As for power tools, several companies that come to mind are Delta, Dewalt,
Porter Cable and Powermatic. While they also have manufacturing plants in
other countries (as well they should because they market to other
countries too) their top of the line tools sold in the USA are made in the
USA. I even saw Hobart welders (made in USA) on the shelf at Harbor
Freight the other day.
There are many good tools to choose from. When I need something for a
weekend project any tool that gets the job done is fine. But for my job I
need tools I can depend on. I want something that is good quality, built
here and serviced here by technicians who have parts readily available. I
definitely look for the Made in USA label.
Blame the Unions!!
Years ago when there was not much government regulations, companies
could do and treat people anyway they wanted. Unions then helped
people.
Education, regulations, and the workplace has gotten 10x better and
safer. Now companies spend billions either paying extra $$'s because
of unions, or spending the money keeping a union out.
I have worked across the US in manufacturing and have found the
quality of union work to be worse than non-union work. Union workers
are not motivated like non union workers are.
I have worked union and non-union contractors on the same job and the
nonunion contractor does equal or better work and is much more
flexible.
Why an educated worker needs someone to represent them, I don't know
or understand.
What I do know is that companies closing their doors and moving their
operations to Mexico or China, are mostly union based companies.
In my own company we have union and non union plants. Those plants
that are non union are consistently more productive, efficient, have
less waste, and are more engaged than the union plants.
Unions are a real waste to our economy.
If you are in a union, ask yourself why it is that you need someone to
represent you and when your company moves operations to the south,
Mexico, or China, how much you got in that last strike helped that
company make that decision.
On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
>
>I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
>current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
>nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
>and pay a bit more for my tools.
>
>Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
>you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
>
>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
>stayed on the shelf.
>
>Brian Elfert
On 11-Nov-2003, Trent© <[email protected]> wrote:
> Actually, I doubt if anybody in Congress has or ever had the knowledge
> or expertise to even ENVISION any of these improvements, Mike.
The Europeans were doing little on pollution control. American and
Canadian standards are still ahead of Europeans on clean air. No,
Congress isn't capable of thinking - but the lobbyists were able
to get them to enact the regulations. Environmentalists on clean
air and fuel economy, insurance companies on collision costs and
safety.
> Actually, cars are supposed to disintegrate on impact...to be safe.
I didn't say crumple and absorb energy, I said disintegrate. Cars used
to fall apart in a collision and leave the passengers to fend for
themselves. Now we have collision energy absorption, reinforced
passenger compartments, some roll-over strength etc. Most of that
was imposed on Detroit, not done willingly. Light trucks are exempt
from this and are not so readily equipped, nor do they stand up to
collisions as well as one might expect given there considerable
mass.
Mike
Actually, the union/non-union tirade did answer it and the answer for all
intents and purposes is no.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
"JAW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Did anyone answer Brian's original question without going into a
> union/non-union tirade ?
>
> Thanks !
> Jerry
>
> >
> > On 10 Nov 2003 14:43:49 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?
> >>
> >>I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
> >>current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a
real
> >>nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the
USA
> >>and pay a bit more for my tools.
> >>
> >>Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA
unless
> >>you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.
> >>
> >>I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
> >>promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
> >>more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
> >>buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
> >>stayed on the shelf.
> >>
> >>Brian Elfert
> >
> >
>
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:36:04 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>but don't YOU like that extra $4 in your paycheck every week? :)
If you have a job, sure.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:37:36 GMT, Manny Davis <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Ten years ago Chinese products were junk. Today they are not junk, but
> >lower quality. Ten years from now, I would be willing to bet, they
> >will be making high quality stuff.
>
> My mountain bike is 6 years old now. Chinese titanium, and a beautiful
> piece of work. If there's a call for it, China can deliver real
> quality.
>
> BT W - Take a look at the recent prices for Chinese art; genuine
> stuff, not export trade or modern tat. A vase sold recently (New York
> ?) for $300K,to a Chinese eel farmer. There's money in China now, and
> they're wanting their heritage back.
>
Which is the ultimate irony.
Mao destroyed billions of dollars worth of chinese antiquities in his
"cultrual revolution". He felt that all those old things would restrict
their movement into a modern communist state. If he had not destroyed all
these precious artifacts, China would have untold wealth available to
itself.
No idea what they would spend it on though. Probably weapons.
Frank Shute wrote:
> that more Americans are beginning to think that the war in Iraq was
> not a very good idea and it can only be a matter of time before they
> start questioning harder the given motives for it.
Some of us questioned the motives from the beginning.
> Imposing tarrifs on foreign imports can also only be a stop-gap
> measure, so expect a farming crisis in your country in the not too
> distant future.
With manufacturing gone and farming gone, one wonders how will will earn the
money needed to buy all these things from overseas.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On 11 Nov 2003 14:55:04 GMT, [email protected] (Eric G.) brought
forth from the murky depths:
>I found this interesting, from an article by Robert Reich....
-snip-
>Heres the real surprise. China saw a 15 percent drop. China, which is fast
>becoming the manufacturing capital of the world, has been losing millions of
>factory jobs.
One word explanation: AUTOMATION.
A friend of mine is automating small companies along the California
I-78 corridor and estimates that the companies he works for are
removing between 4 and 12 people/jobs per line he installs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Scattered Showers My Ass! * Insightful Advertising Copy
* --Noah * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Shute wrote:
> Ford are going to go bust, it's just a matter of time. They've been
> palming off over-priced sh*te on customers for too many years.
>
> It's unbelievable that a company that pioneered in a variety of areas
> of manufacturing (including quality control!) should go down the
> toilet.
Henry's been dead & gone too long.
<Really OT>
I wonder what Walt Disney would think of what the empire using his name is
doing.
</Really OT>
-- Mark
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:03:21 GMT, Brian Henderson wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:57:14 -0500, Dr. Know <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Depends on whether you want to circulate your money back into this
>>economy or build yet another foreign world empire.
>
> Since most 'foreign' cars are built in the US by US workers, I don't
> have to worry about it. It's the design and management that makes the
> difference. US auto makers want to crank out cheap crap at inflated
> prices. Foreign auto makers produce quality cars at reasonable
> prices. Which one should I choose? Planned obsolescence in 3 years?
> A company that wastes millions to make their car SOUND powerful? Or a
> reliable, well-built, well-designed car that will go as far as I need
> it to without breaking the bank?
I've got a theory that the more a car manufacturer spends on
advertising the more useless their cars are. In the UK Ford is at the
top of the heap in terms of advertising! (....and producing useless
cars IMHO)
BTW, Ford did a study on the effects of customer disatisfaction some
years ago and they found that on average a pissed off customer would
tell 8 potential customers that they were pissed off with Ford. That
ratio must have increased vastly since the dawn of the Internet.
Ford are going to go bust, it's just a matter of time. They've been
palming off over-priced sh*te on customers for too many years.
It's unbelievable that a company that pioneered in a variety of areas
of manufacturing (including quality control!) should go down the
toilet.
BTW, I own a Nissan (built in the UK - the Japs send their engineers
abroad to sort things out though) & I couldn't be happier with it.
--
Frank
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:41:05 -0500, "George"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Brush Guards" have saved my life, and the lives of a couple of my
>co-workers by taking the impact of a deer, and, as the upper bar projects
>outward beyond the lower, pushing the corpse underneath the ambulance rather
>than allowing it to join me in the seat.
Of course, your ambulance has REAL brush guards not the non-protective
bling-bling pop riveted to a typical SUV.
My Jeep has REAL push bars and nerf bars. They attach to the frame
and do their job very well.
Barry
Brian Elfert wrote:
> "George" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>If you're a grandpa, you must remember the three-year vehicle. So you've
>>picked a bad example, in my opinion. I'm _glad_ they don't make 'em like
>>they used to. I'm running about eight/ten years in salt country right now,
>>and 150K+, which was unheard of when I was a kid.
>
>
> Cars are much better now. Minnesota used to be the land of the rust
> bucket. Now, in general, more cars succumb to accidents than to rust. I
> rarely see a rust bucket anymore unless it is pretty old like 1980s
> vintage.
Thats probably due to better paint and undercoats, not the mechanical
side of the vehicle, unless its dying before it has a chance to rust.
Phisherman wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:36:26 -0700, Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Not many, costs too much to produce them here, plus, if you make a tool
>>to last a long time then you can't sell many of them. Have you noted
>>that cars last until you make your last payment, then fall to pieces?
>>We are digging ourselves into a huge hole.
>
> Ah, my Japanese car is over 20 years old. My brother always buys
> American cars, but buys a new one every three years because they keep
> falling apart. He makes more money than I do.
- I've a 2002 Suburban I bought as a retirement gift to myself 16 months
ago and love it, 11k miles so far. The jury is out on how long it'll
last when we start travelling the US though.
- I've a 96 Saturn SL2, can't complain about it either. 35mpg road, 29
in town & has 65k miles. Great car so far - wife loves it.
- I've a 92 Ford 4x4 Supercab (300cid & 5spd OD trans), engine is pretty
good but the rest of it is shit. WW switch is AFU and certainly doesn't
need a dozen variable speeds. Ign switch won't center. Mirrors both
broke the housings instead of laying into the side of the door when I
needed them to. Been thru 1 clutch and 2 throwout bearings, and 1
transmission ($1500) and I did the R&R. Been thru 3 air conditioning
compressors so far. It eats front pads annually. Dash broke from lower
rt corner and rattles & shakes from hitting a speed bump, a freaking
normal speed bump! I haul no heavy loads, rarely tow except our 15'
camping trailer 2-3 times a summer and do not overload or abuse - ever.
Has 92k miles & was bought new.
- last one is an 89 Daihatsu, uglier than homemade sin, like an egg on 4
wheels, too ugly for anyone to steal but runs and runs and runs with
never a problem. 40 mpg in town and dependable. Has 92k miles & bought
w/ 25k miles. Best damned vehicle I ever owned.
Manny Davis <[email protected]> writes:
[...]
>> bowing to the ever prevalent modus operandi of cheap(er) Chinese junk?
>
> Ten years ago Chinese products were junk. Today they are not junk, but
> lower quality. Ten years from now, I would be willing to bet, they
> will be making high quality stuff.
Already now (and probably since a long time) chinese wooden planes or
chinese chisels are high quality, at least the few parts that i hav in
my eclectic collection of tools.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23
They would if the bean counters would let them. I've gotten damn tired over
the years of hearing "it's good enough. Just get it out of here".
"Pops" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Absolutely not the American Factory Worker but maybe the engineers who
> design stuff to planned obsolescence.
>
> You don't spec it to last, it won't last no matter who or where it is
built.
Could it have anything to do with the quality of the paper? I for one get
tired of having to read 2-3 paragraphs of the reporters PC-BS before they
tell me what happened. News stories are / were suppose to be just that, an
unbiased view of an event that took place. There is a place for editorials
but not in EVERY story. I am at the point now where I skim down the article
until I find the NEWS.
Pops
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:3fafe433$0$75901
> > I work for a newspaper. Unless everything goes to the web, we'll still
be
> > around. So many people like to read real paper that newspapers will be
> > around for some time yet.
> >
> > Retailers still need to advertise no matter where they get the good, so
my
> > job is reasonably secure.
> >
> > Brian Elfert
>
> Still be around, but less of you. Newspaper circulation has been in
decline
> for some years now. People would rather watch the news on TV or listen on
> the radio during their commute. I can think of a dozen major cities that
> have lost at least one of their papers in the past 10 or 15 years.
> Ed
>
>