What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
This looks like a pretty straight forward tool to me, meaning there are not
a lot of adjustable compound angles like a table saw or jointer.
Is it just the tolerances that the bed and spindle heads are held to in
manufacturing ?
The design of the tools looks like they are all clones.
I am pretty sure I am missing something but I don't know what.
Are there specifically a class of tool or specific tools to avoid.
Like many tools the prices vary from a table top model at < 200 to as much
as the budget can bear.
If I had one it would mostly keep the other tools in the garage company, but
like all tools when you need it it is the one you need.
I would like to hear from the wood turning crowd on this.
Thanks,
Charlie
Charlie H. wrote:
> What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
> This looks like a pretty straight forward tool to me, meaning there are not
> a lot of adjustable compound angles like a table saw or jointer.
> Is it just the tolerances that the bed and spindle heads are held to in
> manufacturing ?
> The design of the tools looks like they are all clones.
> I am pretty sure I am missing something but I don't know what.
> Are there specifically a class of tool or specific tools to avoid.
> Like many tools the prices vary from a table top model at < 200 to as much
> as the budget can bear.
> If I had one it would mostly keep the other tools in the garage company, but
> like all tools when you need it it is the one you need.
> I would like to hear from the wood turning crowd on this.
>
First off, a lath is a piece of wood.
A lathe is a machine.
Someone who doesn't know the difference shouldn't be using either.
Charlie,
I'm not a pro woodturner but I have been trying to learn all I can so I
can build or buy one myself. Here is what I have learned so far....
First, variable speed (as mentioned before) is a very helpful feature
that can be attained in a few different ways like stepped pulleys and
electronic controls. Price will bear on this. If you are happy changing
belts, you can save a few dollars.
Next, you may want to think about the option of bowl turning. The term
"Swing over bed" means "how big of a piece will turn on the headstock
without hitting the ways". The ways are the rail-like things that hold
the tailstock securely. If you want to turn bowls, you may want to be
able to attach a faceplate to the outside end of the headstock, OR be
able to turn the headstock 180 degrees. Again, prices will vary.
Next, you may want to look closely at the size on the headstock shaft.
The cheaper lathes will use a smaller diameter shaft. A larger diameter
shaft will tend to vibrate less when you are turning a larger piece or
at higher speeds.
Another feature to look for is the construction of the ways. The cheap
lathes will sometimes use thin wall pipes or stamped steel ways for
attaching the tailstock. These will also tend to give you more
vibration in use. Generally, I have found that "the heavier the better"
seems to run true. The large cast iron ways hold up better and help to
keep the lathe more stable.
Yet another thing to consider is the attachment of headstock
accessories. Some lathes use a threaded shaft only, some have external
threads and a No. 1 Morse taper on the inside, while others have
threads and a No. 2 Morse taper. Morse tapered accessories are quick
and easy to change.
Last of all, how long of a piece do you want to make? Do you need to
make canopy bed posts 6' long, or table legs, or pen blanks? Length of
bed also translates into price.
As you can see, there are a few facts to consider to make sure that you
get the right tool for the job.
Hope this helps,
Stephen M proclaimed:
<<It's "LATHE" BTW.
I assume your question boils down to why should I spend more for a
"better"
lathe and what will I get for my money?
Try posting to Rec.woodturning for more. >>
I am sure he appreciated your spelling lesson. Let he without typos
post critical remarks.
"Rec.woodturning". An unusual spelling there, too. I am unaware of
the significance of the capital "R". Maybe you could explain.
Then if you would (you know, while we are correcting one another's
posts), correct your own post. It is rec.crafts.woodturning, not
"Rec.woodturning".
Robert
It is kind of a no totally right answer. There are a lot of choices.
What do you want to turn? How much money do you want to spend? Whatever
the cost of the lathe, expect to spend double that amount (at least) on
tools, attachments, and accessories. You can do little things on a big
lathe, but you can't do big things on a little lathe (at least not
without a lot of hastle). For turning tools, you want high speed steel.
It is the most common, and quality doesn't vary a whole lot. The fancy
powder metal tools that last "4 times longer", and cost twice as much
keep a working edge longer, but not the fresh off the grinder edge that
you need for finish cuts. Check out the AAW (American Assn. or
Woodturners) and try to find a club near you. A club is an excellent
learning experience, and you may be able to find a used lathe for sale,
tools, and even discounts at some local stores.
robo hippy
paul_bilodeau1 wrote:
<<I'm not a pro woodturner but I have been trying to learn all I can so
I
can build or buy one myself.>>
*SNIP*
A good post with a lot of constructive thinking except for that first
part. I am just givnig a respectful warning about building a lathe,
and if may be something you have your heart set on doing. If that is
the case, do it!
But I have known and talked to a few on the net that have tried to make
their own lathes. As for making a general lathe (for spindle and
bowl), none would do it again. It was too hard, too long a process and
required too much work. They were never completely happy with their
efforts, they felt like it took too long (they wanted to be spinning
wood, not metal working) and at the end of the process they felt like
they had actually tried to reinvent the wheel.
I think a much better way to go (my opinon) for a general use lathe is
to find some old iron and restore. The old machines were simple, and
made to be rebuilt. You can get great variable speed motors and drives
at places like surplus equipment dealers, surplus electrical motor
dealers and a ton of others. It is faster and you have a well balanced
machine designed and made for the purpose of general turning.
That being said, I have visited shops where bowl turners have made
their own BOWL turning lathes and like them. Since their are no ways
to align and worry about, no headstock/tailstock alignment issues, and
no worries about axial twisting from under engineering, etc., they had
a pretty easy build.
Essentially, one guy I visited took pieces of 6 inch angle iron and
made himself a box about 40 inches tall, and about 30 inches square.
He filled it with concrete, and welded a cap on it to which he welded a
receiver to hold his pillow blocks. He put a 2 horse variable speed
motor next to the table top, inserted a shaft he had threaded (1 1/4"X8
so he could buy faceplates), belted up, and welded a homemade affair to
hold his toolrest. The toolrest assembly is one of those outrigging
affairs like Nova makes.
After experimenting with some huge pieces, he decided to bolt it to the
floor as he had a little wobble when roughing out the big stuff (which
is why he built it). He loved his setup, and I must say it was as
steady as a boulder. He routinely turned 24-30" platters for sale in
an artist community north of here. It took him about a month to build
and finish, and at the end of the project he had about $1000 bucks in a
lathe the would have cost him about $4000 were the to buy something
comparable. Not as elegant, but certainly as usable.
But for any kind of spindle work, he had an old Rockwell in the back
that he used. Knowing the engineering and the precision he would have
to observe, he never even tried to make a spindle turning lathe.
Come on over to rec.crafts.woodturning, another usenet group, or read
WoodCentral.com's turning forum. Both have excellent archives where
you will get lots of hands on info on turning, sharpening, techniques,
lathe buying advice, and there is even some here and there on lathe
building.
Robert
Stephen M wote and replied:
>> You make better spindles on a smoother lathe. Better bearings, rigid
>> construction are what you want.
>I agree. But, I said "not really necessary". I stand by that.
Certainly not postively necessary. I have seen some beautiful work
turned out by turners (some now nationally recognized) on old Sears
monotubes. Small spindle shafts, tiny bears, and the monotube.....
ouch. We have some in our club that just love theirs though, and they
turn all manner of nice work.
>> Roughing a piece should not be used as a test of the lathe. If the
turners
>> has sense, they will get the piece into best balance possible prior to
>>roughing. Many don't but they deserve what they get.
>Let me restate my point: Out of balance situations happen (before or after
>roughing). They are bigger problem at a a higher diameter. A sturdier lathe
>will handle/dampen/withstand the resilting forces better.
Hmmm.... WTF do they deserve? Sounds ominous. I agree with Stephen
completely on this aspect, and it has CERTAINLY been my experience.
With some pieces, they refuse to be mounted in perfect balance, and
some wont come close. You can trim then with your chainsaw while
mounted, shift the attachment points... anything else. If you don't
have enough mass on the lathe to handle a large piece until you can get
it as balanced as you want, you are up against it.
>> Nope, learn the physics of turning, build a rigid stand with proper
geometry
>> to take the thrust of the turning and put a little bit of weight close to
>> the floor behind it to keep it from lifting.
>That addresses the forces associated with the mass of the workpiece
>contacting the tool. An out of balance piece will attempt to move in the
>direction tangent to the heavy spot, which is well....rotating.
Well, again I am with Stephen on this one. I don't know how you could
design a lathe stand to cover all aspects of length, diameter, and the
things that make woodturning interesting like voids or hollow spots.
Or large, heavy swirly areas. Rotted or hollow areas you can't see
that you simply cannot plan for and don't know about until hollowing.
Or a green piece of wood with really rotted half. I am thinking of a
piece of green persimmon that I just turned; it was 8-9" in diameter
and about 12" in length. Down the length it about half was fully dried
and just beginning to rot and was very dry. The other side was
healthy, and green as grass. It was quite lively the whole time I
turned it as it was always out of round as it dried more, and it was
always out of balance from the start.
A well designed stand with cleverly placed supports "built with the
proper geometry" without sufficient weight would have done a voodoo
dance, hopping all over the shop. I may still struggle with the
physics of turning (well... probably not) but I don't see how that
would help a severely out of balance piece that was mounted to the best
of my ability behave while I got it where I wanted it. After rounding
(I was looking for a half and half contrast of dark grey to white wood
here - striking in appearance) that piece was still completely out of
balance.
Even in concentricity, no geometry lesson or clever support placement
would ever make this 23 lb block of spinning wood so. Sigh.
>>> 2. Heavier weight shafts and bearings are required to handle those
forces.
>> Once again, be smarter than the lathe, and balance your turnings.
>I try.
I try too, but it is hard. I turn a lot of things off center. A lot.
Off center is interesting and develops a whole different skill set of
woodturning. However, sadly, the geometry alone is evident to my lathe
(our constant battle of IQs aside) that off center means almost by
definition in woodturning (as opposed to speed balancing a tire) well
off balance.
My lathe and I will make a concerted, mutual effort to work this out,
though I am not encouraged by his response. We both feel (I am
speaking for both of us here) that if the piece is centered, rounded on
the lathe, and still out of balance the only way we can overcome the
problem it presents is to add more mass to the lathe to combat the
motion caused by spinning the out of balance piece while holding it
between two centers.
And since we don't have the proper equipment (he is thinking an MRI
machine here, but I don't know) to determine exactly where on every
single piece of wood we mount it is out of balance, hollow, rotted,
dried, or has a hidden inclusion, regardless of diameter or length
(length is his pet peeve on the out of balance biz) we are truly "up
against it".
Sure, we could turn smaller items out of perfectly dried or perfectly
green wood, or use wood that has no defects. We could turn only
perfectly symmetric shapes, balanced in profile and dimension out of
nice pieces of wood with good straight grain. Could even add in a
little curly stuff here and there to make up for the boredom. Sadly, I
am not really interested much in that anymore. Years ago, sure. Now,
not usually interested unless I have a really pretty piece of wood and
I don't want to detract from the wood with design work.
I still intend to battle with that spinning know it all and turn
natural edge bowls, leaning mushrooms, spoons, spatulas, natural edge
vases, and off center ornaments no matter how off center or out of
balance they turn out to be in the final form. It won't be easy,
though. His head(stock) is really hard... almost like it was made of
iron.
Robert
George wrote:
<<You begin by listening and not whining>>
OK, Daddy. I'll go to my room now.
This is now devolving into one of those self rightous, who has the
biggest pecker thread. It was all fine until the patented "why can't
see understand my brilliance" tone started. Right or not, it doesn't
matter to me. I prefer a more collegial tone, and you take a hard,
adamant approach. This is of course, because you are right.
I don't care about gauntlet throwing challenges "I'll wager I've
turned more weird chunks than you have in the past 25 years", your
sarcasm "Once again, be smarter than the lathe" but to now name
calling? Me a whiner?
Nothing you could do could make me whine, zippy.
I even appreciate your closed minded pontifications of the right way to
think and do things, but.... whining? Never.
Go ahead and respond as you always do, George with a lot of thunder and
lightening, roll in some factual (but correct) data of some sort,
present your hypothesis and solve it to your own personal satisfaction
with that hard tone of indignation that you use for anyone that would
dare "pick nits".
Whining? I am through with this thread as your name calling has pissed
me off and I don't want to get involved with one of these wastes of
time.
So go ahead and proclaim your triumph, proclaim the correctness of your
science, and challenge me as a coward because I won't stay and bandy
words.
Kick ass, George.
Whining my fucking ass.
Robert
"Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> For spindle turning and smaller work, a top-quality lathe is not really
> necessary. I had a cheap Crapsman, an it did OK for spindles but the
> general build quality was weak and ease of use of all the lockdowns was
> marginal. For a few extra $ you can get better fit /finish/ergonomics and
> to
> some degree capacity (Distance between centers, Swing, HP).
You make better spindles on a smoother lathe. Better bearings, rigid
construction are what you want.
>
> Quality (and by quality I mean price point) really matters when you get
> into
> bowls. With bowls, and out of blance workpiece (when you first mount it)
> will pick up your lathe and throw it around the room. This is because the
> (off) center of gravity is much further from the center of rotation.
>
Roughing a piece should not be used as a test of the lathe. If the turners
has sense, they will get the piece into best balance possible prior to
roughing. Many don't but they deserve what they get.
> The following things can be incorporated into the lathe design to combat
> this problem, all of them cost $$$:
>
> 1. Add weight (more cast iron and lot's of it)
Nope, learn the physics of turning, build a rigid stand with proper geometry
to take the thrust of the turning and put a little bit of weight close to
the floor behind it to keep it from lifting.
> 2. Heavier weight shafts and bearings are required to handle those forces.
Once again, be smarter than the lathe, and balance your turnings. Good
bearings and rigidity are your friends.
> 3. The bottom speed of most mechanical drive systems is around 500rpm.
> That
> translates to a pretty fast linear surface speed with a 12" diameter
> workpiece. To get really slow rpms you need to either rig your own drive
> system or invest in electronic variable speed motors (most EVS-equipped
> lathes start around $1500)
Mechanical and electrical options are available for obtaining slower speeds.
A constant-speed motor with mechanical changes (pulleys) cools itself best
and provides good torque to the piece at slow speeds. As the energy
available to eat your tools or throw a chunk varies with the square of the
velocity, you want slower speeds for starting, and just enough to pull a
shaving afterward. Don't read all that baloney about higher speeds being
necessary. They're for people who bought crummy lathes instead of good,
rigid ones with heavy bearings. What they do is try to substitute inertia
for torque and stability.
"Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Let me restate my point: Out of balance situations happen (before or after
> roughing). They are bigger problem at a a higher diameter. A sturdier
> lathe
> will handle/dampen/withstand the resilting forces better.
>
Well, since you like to pick nits, no. The kinetic energy depends more on
the speed than the diameter. The moment of inertia may not be at the rim,
either. You'll want to review your angular velocity concepts.
>>
>> > The following things can be incorporated into the lathe design to
>> > combat
>> > this problem, all of them cost $$$:
>> >
>> > 1. Add weight (more cast iron and lot's of it)
>>
>> Nope, learn the physics of turning, build a rigid stand with proper
> geometry
>> to take the thrust of the turning and put a little bit of weight close to
>> the floor behind it to keep it from lifting.
>
>
> That addresses the forces associated with the mass of the workpiece
> contacting the tool. An out of balance piece will attempt to move in the
> direction tangent to the heavy spot, which is well....rotating.
You _really_ want to review your physics. Try this site for some good,
easily understandable information.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html The heavy spot
begins to accelerate at 12:00. achieves maximum moment at 9:00 when rotating
counterclockwise, but maximum energy somewhere around eight o clock. Has
nothing to do with the tool, which contacts the piece, if you are any kind
of a lathesman, at an oblique angle so the wood slides down the edge,
severing cleanly. If you're a good lathesman, shavings fall, they don't
fly.
>
>> > 2. Heavier weight shafts and bearings are required to handle those
> forces.
>>
>> Once again, be smarter than the lathe, and balance your turnings.
>
> I try.
>
>>Good bearings and rigidity are your friends.
>
> Yup we said that (OK I didn't use the word "ridgid")
No, you didn't, and rigid is absolutely the key here _not_ weight. The best
lathe, as with the best stand, is rigid. It does not allow any flex which
can lead to paradoxical motion between the rest and the work. Further, it
should have positive locks throughout which will not allow the components to
move relative to one another even in adjustment directions unless the
operator chooses it.
I have not personally seen a pully system capable of <100
> rpm
> that comes with a mainstream (delta/jet/oneway/vicmark/nova etc.), but I
> could be wrong..
> I have only heard of home made jack shaft systems. Hense, "rig your own
> drive stystem"
>
>
Your straw man. I don't turn that low because I concentrate on balancing
the piece and use the tailstock. Those, plus a properly constructed stand
allow a 16" piece to rough at 360 with no real complication. 12" pieces had
to begin at >600 on my old one, which was a great encouragement to rapidly
reducing an off-balance piece. If I go lower on my mechanical system, I have
to shave before the same point comes 'round again.
"Enoch Root" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I think you are assuming that all turned pieces end up balanced. That's
> very often not the case especially with more whimsical effects, or even
> if you are just making a nice mallet (remembering a recent post about an
> old mallet with off-center turning requirements.)
>
No, that's what you are assuming. I'll wager I've turned more weird chunks
than you have in the past 25 years, but I got them "as balanced as possible"
prior to working them, and I understand the physics of turning. Quick
example. I'm sure you can see that this could never have been in balance.
It was merely controlled properly.
http://photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view¤t=ShellacLongSide.jpg
Would you believe there are actually experienced turners who won't nibble
the ends off of a standard half-log mount on the bandsaw prior to spinning
it on the lathe? They are the ones who complain about dismounts and broken
toolrests and such, of course.
"Enoch Root" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> BTW, from where in your previous post, to which I responded, did you
> clip the quote "as balanced as possible"?
Sorry, actual is "into best balance possible."
Followed by "balance your turnings" later in the post.
>> Would you believe there are actually experienced turners who won't nibble
>> the ends off of a standard half-log mount on the bandsaw prior to
>> spinning
>> it on the lathe? They are the ones who complain about dismounts and
>> broken
>> toolrests and such, of course.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> Roughing a piece should not be used as a test of the lathe. If the
> turners
>>> has sense, they will get the piece into best balance possible prior to
>>>roughing. Many don't but they deserve what they get.
>
>
>>Let me restate my point: Out of balance situations happen (before or after
>>roughing). They are bigger problem at a a higher diameter. A sturdier
>>lathe
>>will handle/dampen/withstand the resilting forces better.
>
> Hmmm.... WTF do they deserve? Sounds ominous. I agree with Stephen
> completely on this aspect, and it has CERTAINLY been my experience.
> With some pieces, they refuse to be mounted in perfect balance, and
> some wont come close. You can trim then with your chainsaw while
> mounted, shift the attachment points... anything else. If you don't
> have enough mass on the lathe to handle a large piece until you can get
> it as balanced as you want, you are up against it.
Once again, you're ignoring physics and the easy way to counter the
situation - a proper stand. Wastes the effort of the piece in trying to
compress the incompressable versus limiting the lift on a strictly inertial
basis.
What do they deserve? They deserve the poor outcome of the lousy technique
which they continue to follow. Rather than applying their noggins to
turning, they apply the turnings to their noggins. Simple things like not
nibbling the ends, or my particular favorite, starting between centers with
the spur center driving are easily avoided.
>>> Nope, learn the physics of turning, build a rigid stand with proper
> geometry
>>> to take the thrust of the turning and put a little bit of weight close
>>> to
>>> the floor behind it to keep it from lifting.
>
>>That addresses the forces associated with the mass of the workpiece
>>contacting the tool. An out of balance piece will attempt to move in the
>>direction tangent to the heavy spot, which is well....rotating.
>
> Well, again I am with Stephen on this one. I don't know how you could
> design a lathe stand to cover all aspects of length, diameter, and the
> things that make woodturning interesting like voids or hollow spots.
> Or large, heavy swirly areas. Rotted or hollow areas you can't see
> that you simply cannot plan for and don't know about until hollowing.
You begin by listening and not whining and picking nits. It is not that a
piece is out of balance. It's _always_ out of balance. What you do is the
best you can to control the effect of the conditions. For example - if you
read and think, you realize that the closer to center the imbalance is, the
less significant it is, and the difference is geometric. Trim what won't be
there in the resultant piece prior to mounting to gain an advantage . As
you thank Sir Isaac for reminding you about mechanical moment, you check on
his angular momentum equations and realize that the worst thing you can do
is speed up the lathe, as some, believe it or not recommend, to counter a
resonant condition. Turning as slow as you can stand to is really a great
idea.
Oh yes, did I mention that you buy a lathe and build or buy a rigid stand
which does not allow elastic collisions to exacerbate out-of-balance
conditions? It doesn't have to be heavy. You've got the whole earth as
your counter if you want it.
Hey y'all thanks for the replies, sorry about the spelling error but at
least it gave a few folks something to talk about even if they don't know
much about a lath either :-)
If I hang out here very much I assure you it won't be the last time I am
caught spelling something wrong.
To everyone who shared some info about lathes and the components that make
them unique I appreciate the information very much. I had not really thought
about how very critical the mass and weight is to this particular tool, but
it makes perfect sense that this tool perhaps more than any other needs the
weight to simply stay in one place. I can now see real benefits of the
bigger is better theory for the parts that hold and support the piece that
is rotating too since it may never be balanced and at times may be
dangerously out of balance.
Wood turning is not something I have given a lot of thought to and I don't
know if a lathe is in my future or not. Some of the projects I am looking at
suggest turning some of the pieces. I think I can cut them round enough with
a scroll saw but we will see. My curiosity was tweaked so I thought I would
ask what to think about when pondering the merits of a lathe.
Charlie
George wrote:
> Roughing a piece should not be used as a test of the lathe. If the turners
> has sense, they will get the piece into best balance possible prior to
> roughing. Many don't but they deserve what they get.
I think you are assuming that all turned pieces end up balanced. That's
very often not the case especially with more whimsical effects, or even
if you are just making a nice mallet (remembering a recent post about an
old mallet with off-center turning requirements.)
er
--
email not valid
I just finished a wood lathe course. The guy had ten machines. Variable
speed is better than changing the belt on the pulleys. He had General,
Delta, Mastercraft. To me, the General was best. Mind you, all were older
machines, but I felt that given the Generals were around a long time and
still going strong that's the one I'd opt for. The instructor said the
small (midi??) lathes were ok but if you were serious about wood turning the
bigger one is the way to go.
Now - a few days ago my neighbour, who teaches industrial arts, had a lathe
in the back of his truck. Turns out he was bringing it from one school to
another..Anyway, I asked him about it. It was a Rockwell-Delta and sold for
about $3,500. He said it was an "Industrial quality lathe" and from his
experience, if he had the moola would buy no other. Oh yes - It was variable
speed.
Salmo
George wrote:
> "Enoch Root" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I think you are assuming that all turned pieces end up balanced. That's
>>very often not the case especially with more whimsical effects, or even
>>if you are just making a nice mallet (remembering a recent post about an
>>old mallet with off-center turning requirements.)
>>
>
>
> No, that's what you are assuming. I'll wager I've turned more weird chunks
> than you have in the past 25 years, but I got them "as balanced as possible"
> prior to working them, and I understand the physics of turning. Quick
Oh I'm sure you have, I've turned wood but I'm not by any stretch of the
imagination a wood turner.
BTW, from where in your previous post, to which I responded, did you
clip the quote "as balanced as possible"?
> example. I'm sure you can see that this could never have been in balance.
> It was merely controlled properly.
> http://photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view¤t=ShellacLongSide.jpg
>
> Would you believe there are actually experienced turners who won't nibble
> the ends off of a standard half-log mount on the bandsaw prior to spinning
> it on the lathe? They are the ones who complain about dismounts and broken
> toolrests and such, of course.
er
--
email not valid
> What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
It's "LATHE" BTW.
I assume your question boils down to why should I spend more for a "better"
lathe and what will I get for my money?
Try posting to Rec.woodturning for more.
For spindle turning and smaller work, a top-quality lathe is not really
necessary. I had a cheap Crapsman, an it did OK for spindles but the
general build quality was weak and ease of use of all the lockdowns was
marginal. For a few extra $ you can get better fit /finish/ergonomics and to
some degree capacity (Distance between centers, Swing, HP).
Quality (and by quality I mean price point) really matters when you get into
bowls. With bowls, and out of blance workpiece (when you first mount it)
will pick up your lathe and throw it around the room. This is because the
(off) center of gravity is much further from the center of rotation.
The following things can be incorporated into the lathe design to combat
this problem, all of them cost $$$:
1. Add weight (more cast iron and lot's of it)
2. Heavier weight shafts and bearings are required to handle those forces.
3. The bottom speed of most mechanical drive systems is around 500rpm. That
translates to a pretty fast linear surface speed with a 12" diameter
workpiece. To get really slow rpms you need to either rig your own drive
system or invest in electronic variable speed motors (most EVS-equipped
lathes start around $1500)
Hope that help shed some light.
Steve
Take a chill pill Sal,
He's picking on the OP.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To "Gus"...
>
> Picky - picky - picky....???
>
> If your comment was meant to be funny, then it's ok. If it wasn't, then
read
> my answer and you will see that it was correctly spelled lathe, as it was
> meant it to be in the post title. Spell-check doesn't pick up the
difference
> if the word is spelled correctly, no matter what was implied.
>
> Salmo
>
>
> You make better spindles on a smoother lathe. Better bearings, rigid
> construction are what you want.
I agree. But, I said "not really necessary". I stand by that.
>
> >
> > Quality (and by quality I mean price point) really matters when you get
> > into
> > bowls. With bowls, and out of blance workpiece (when you first mount it)
> > will pick up your lathe and throw it around the room. This is because
the
> > (off) center of gravity is much further from the center of rotation.
> >
>
> Roughing a piece should not be used as a test of the lathe. If the
turners
> has sense, they will get the piece into best balance possible prior to
> roughing. Many don't but they deserve what they get.
Let me restate my point: Out of balance situations happen (before or after
roughing). They are bigger problem at a a higher diameter. A sturdier lathe
will handle/dampen/withstand the resilting forces better.
>
> > The following things can be incorporated into the lathe design to combat
> > this problem, all of them cost $$$:
> >
> > 1. Add weight (more cast iron and lot's of it)
>
> Nope, learn the physics of turning, build a rigid stand with proper
geometry
> to take the thrust of the turning and put a little bit of weight close to
> the floor behind it to keep it from lifting.
That addresses the forces associated with the mass of the workpiece
contacting the tool. An out of balance piece will attempt to move in the
direction tangent to the heavy spot, which is well....rotating.
> > 2. Heavier weight shafts and bearings are required to handle those
forces.
>
> Once again, be smarter than the lathe, and balance your turnings.
I try.
>Good bearings and rigidity are your friends.
Yup we said that (OK I didn't use the word "ridgid")
>
> > 3. The bottom speed of most mechanical drive systems is around 500rpm.
> > That
> > translates to a pretty fast linear surface speed with a 12" diameter
> > workpiece. To get really slow rpms you need to either rig your own drive
> > system or invest in electronic variable speed motors (most EVS-equipped
> > lathes start around $1500)
>
> Mechanical and electrical options are available for obtaining slower
speeds.
> A constant-speed motor with mechanical changes (pulleys) cools itself best
> and provides good torque to the piece at slow speeds.
Agreed. However, I have not personally seen a pully system capable of <100
rpm
that comes with a mainstream (delta/jet/oneway/vicmark/nova etc.), but I
could be wrong..
I have only heard of home made jack shaft systems. Hense, "rig your own
drive stystem"
"Charlie H." <[email protected]> writes:
> What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
What do you want to do with it?
If you want to make pens, then $200-$300 is a fine price.
If you want to make 20" bowls, then you need to spend more money.
For instance, which describes what you want to do:
Spindle
Bowl
Faceplate
Tubework (pens/pencils,etc.)
Mass Duplication
Ornamental
Columns for porches
Chair legs
--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
Lathes are unlike other power tools. A turner really becomes one with a
lathe, much more so than other tools. Holding the cutting edges in your
hands, moving your entire body to make a smooth flowing cut, watching (out
of the corner of your eye :) ribbons of wood arcing through the air, having
more fun than normally allowed. The lathe is the only tool on which you can
mount a chunk of tree and take off a fully-finished piece.
What makes one lathe better than another? Lack of vibration, stiffness
smooth transfer of power, ease of reach to power switches, smooth and
precise adjustments that are always within reach. All of these come from
lots of cast iron, precise machining and attention to detail, and all cost
money. The mini lathes (Jet and Delta most notably) are outstanding value,
given their size limitations. Small things can be turned (more easily) on a
big lathe but large items cannot be turned on small lathes... hence the
ever-present desire to get bigger lathes. Getting what you pay for applies
to lathes, as it does to most things in life.
Turning is a glorious addiction. Most dedicated turners I know used to be
well-rounded woodworkers before discovering the uniquely satisfying and
fascinating world of turning. Enter at your own risk. :)
Michael Latcha - at home in Redford, MI
"Charlie H." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
> This looks like a pretty straight forward tool to me, meaning there are
> not a lot of adjustable compound angles like a table saw or jointer.
> Is it just the tolerances that the bed and spindle heads are held to in
> manufacturing ?
> The design of the tools looks like they are all clones.
> I am pretty sure I am missing something but I don't know what.
> Are there specifically a class of tool or specific tools to avoid.
> Like many tools the prices vary from a table top model at < 200 to as much
> as the budget can bear.
> If I had one it would mostly keep the other tools in the garage company,
> but like all tools when you need it it is the one you need.
> I would like to hear from the wood turning crowd on this.
>
> Thanks,
> Charlie
>
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:32:29 -0600, "Charlie H."
<[email protected]> wrote:
>What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
>This looks like a pretty straight forward tool to me, meaning there are not
>a lot of adjustable compound angles like a table saw or jointer.
>Is it just the tolerances that the bed and spindle heads are held to in
>manufacturing ?
>The design of the tools looks like they are all clones.
>I am pretty sure I am missing something but I don't know what.
>Are there specifically a class of tool or specific tools to avoid.
>Like many tools the prices vary from a table top model at < 200 to as much
>as the budget can bear.
>If I had one it would mostly keep the other tools in the garage company, but
>like all tools when you need it it is the one you need.
>I would like to hear from the wood turning crowd on this.
>
>Thanks,
>Charlie
>
good is usually in the eye of the beholder and more importantly, in the budget
of the turner...
Basic requirement is stability... you can't turn something true if you're
chasing it around..
Another important factor is quality of components... bearings, motor, etc. have
to be quality or you're in for problems..
Power is important... the more aggressive the turner, the more torque is
wanted... (not really "needed" but torque overcomes bad technique)
Size matters... if you do pens and stuff, start small and get a larger lathe as
you grow into spindles and bowls... 2 size factors: how long can the stock be
and how big a bowl or turning can it turn without hitting the lathe bed..
(swing)
A very popular lathe is the Jet Mini... turn a 10" bowl or a (I think) 24"
spindle for about $225 US..
BUT.. if you want to get the same lathe with variable speed, legs/stand, bed
extension, etc.. you're over $500 in a heart beat..
My lathe (jet 1442) has a "reeves drive" like a shopsmith... 2 changeable size
pulleys that adjust the speed as you turn a handle...
Some folks elect to get this VS in digital format.. add about $900 for that..
As in most stationary tools there are several brands and qualities available...
Do you want the Unisaw version or the Sears benchtop table saw version? *g*
Mac
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm
"Charlie H." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
> This looks like a pretty straight forward tool to me, meaning there are
> not a lot of adjustable compound angles like a table saw or jointer.
> Is it just the tolerances that the bed and spindle heads are held to in
> manufacturing ?
> The design of the tools looks like they are all clones.
> I am pretty sure I am missing something but I don't know what.
> Are there specifically a class of tool or specific tools to avoid.
> Like many tools the prices vary from a table top model at < 200 to as much
> as the budget can bear.
> If I had one it would mostly keep the other tools in the garage company,
> but like all tools when you need it it is the one you need.
> I would like to hear from the wood turning crowd on this.
I have had a cheapie and a medium quality one.
Cheap ones are light weight and tend to be noisier and have more vibration
as a result.
Cheap ones bearings tend to be a source of the noise and vibration.
And ultimately, cheapey ones require a wrench to make live end and tool rest
adjustments. You absolutely do not want to have to use a separate tool to
make minor or major tool adjustments while working on a project. Better
lathes have toolless adjustments.
To "Gus"...
Picky - picky - picky....???
If your comment was meant to be funny, then it's ok. If it wasn't, then read
my answer and you will see that it was correctly spelled lathe, as it was
meant it to be in the post title. Spell-check doesn't pick up the difference
if the word is spelled correctly, no matter what was implied.
Salmo
Most lathes aren't "good" or "bad", they are just better suited for the task
at hand. With that said, some lathes really aren't suitable for any task.
This would be any of the contraptions designed to be powered by an electric
drill and the really cheap and flimsy stuff from China. If you intend to
turn only spindle work, almost any decent lathe will do, as long as you are
able to satisfactorily hold and spin the work at an acceptable speed. If
you want to do bowls and larger diameter work, the requirements increase.
The capacity or "swing" of the lathe and slower speeds are more critical.
For almost any kind of work, the heavier the lathe the better. With more
capital outlay, you generally get a better lathe. If you buy a really
crappy lathe that doesn't work well, you may decide you don't like the
hobby, when what you really don't like is the crappy lathe. I've never
heard anyone complain that they bought a lathe that was "too good". Buy as
much quality as you can afford. A Jet Mini is a very good small lathe and
can be obtained for $250 to $300.
Barry
"Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Charlie H." <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> What makes a lath "good" or "bad" ??
>
> What do you want to do with it?
>
> If you want to make pens, then $200-$300 is a fine price.
> If you want to make 20" bowls, then you need to spend more money.
>
> For instance, which describes what you want to do:
> Spindle
> Bowl
> Faceplate
> Tubework (pens/pencils,etc.)
> Mass Duplication
> Ornamental
> Columns for porches
> Chair legs
>
> --
> Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
> $500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.