I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve
as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
and some of the wood it came from:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use
a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
questions.
How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in
each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
"rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg screws.
Any further tips would also be appreciated.
On Apr 11, 7:50=A0pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 2:48 PM, RonB wrote:
>
>
>
> > Figure out what sizes you need and order them from Amazon. =A0I bought =
a
> > box of 1,000 of the fine thread 1.25" screws about three years ago for
> > around $20, as I recall.
>
> He did order from Amazon and paid about $4 less than you for 1000
> screws. =A0LOL
Well.... Ya know the economists have been worrying about deflation!
Also, me remembering exactly what I paid for anything yesterday is a
stretch. After I sent that message I took a look at Amazon out of
curiosity and saw that box for $16.99. That is a pretty cheap screw
considering they are of pretty good quality and versatility.
RonB
On 4/11/2012 9:11 PM, RonB wrote:
> On Apr 11, 7:50 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 2:48 PM, RonB wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Figure out what sizes you need and order them from Amazon. I bought a
>>> box of 1,000 of the fine thread 1.25" screws about three years ago for
>>> around $20, as I recall.
>>
>> He did order from Amazon and paid about $4 less than you for 1000
>> screws. LOL
>
> Well.... Ya know the economists have been worrying about deflation!
>
> Also, me remembering exactly what I paid for anything yesterday is a
> stretch. After I sent that message I took a look at Amazon out of
> curiosity and saw that box for $16.99. That is a pretty cheap screw
> considering they are of pretty good quality and versatility.
>
> RonB
That is damn cheap considering the quality. As I mentioned in another
post, just try to find a cheepo quality screw for < 2 cents per screw.
On 4/11/2012 9:07 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:48:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Screws with
>>> Washer-Head, 1000-Pack
>>> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $16.99
>
>> Damn I did get taken and directly by Kreg!!! 1000 screws for $17 is
>> cheeeeep.
>
> Well, initially you considered your purchase price to be a deal. No
> reason why that idea should change. And now, you know for next time.
> There's always a cheaper price somewhere else, but is it worth your
> time to find that cheaper price?
Yeah I know LOL. And I have always said that if you are happy with the
price you paid, you got a good deal. I was happy, I did not have to
make a special trip or order the screws.
On Apr 11, 9:58=A0am, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
> Glue would make it stronger and initially more ridged. =A0Depending on ho=
w
> you orientate the boards to each other and climate changes expansion and
> contraction will make the glue joint weaker.
>
> > Any further tips would also be appreciated.
>
> IIRC the jig has a scale that indicates the correct length screws to use.
I'm with Leon. Kreg's manual pretty much leaves glue up to the
user. For face frames and such I usually skip the glue because the
pieces are secured to the case. For anything that is free to move a
bit (like your application) I use Glue.
I would practice a little with scrap before using it on your project.
I have found that the one hard and fast rule is:
- Fine thread screws in hardwood
- Coarse thread screws in softer woods.
You will get by using the fine screws in soft wood but you probably
lose some strength. But trying to use coarse screws in hardwood
causes splits or thread blowouts and it does it often.
Once you get familiar with the process I strongly recommend the Kreg
bench clamp and accompanying hold-down plate. I have the large plate
mounted in the top-center of my bench and one of the smaller ones near
the edge. Bench clamping is much easier and faster and you won't
pinch you fingers as much as you do with the one provided with the
kit. Also, when you get the bench clamp plate and clamp at your
disposal you'll find lots of other uses.
RonB
On 4/11/2012 1:33 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 1:51 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 10:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2012 10:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will
>>>>> serve
>>>>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
>>>>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
>>>>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up
>>>>> from
>>>>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to
>>>>> use
>>>>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree
>>>>> angle
>>>>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to
>>>>> prevent
>>>>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>>>>
>>>>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would
>>>>> fasten
>>>>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
>>>>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found
>>>>> the
>>>>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of
>>>>> specific
>>>>> questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
>>>>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two
>>>>> screws in
>>>>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>>>>
>>>> The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about
>>>> a 5"
>>>> width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
>>>> longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
>>>> edge is not too close.
>>>
>>> That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x
>>> material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25"
>>> screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also have
>>> a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each
>>> critical joint also.
>>
>> Ha, Ha, ha,,,, you said more than you will ever need... LOL ;~)
>> I think I once said that 25 years ago...
>
> I figured I needed 50-60 for this project; a few more if I'm putting 3
> in each joint on the main supports. I wanted to order 200 each of coarse
> (for this job and future plywood ideas) and fine (for face frames). But
> the next increment up from 100 was 1000 for the fine and 500 for the
> coarse, and the prices were only marginally more than for 2 boxes of
> 100, so...
>>
>> These Kreg pocket hole screws are excellent screws and not just for
>> pocket holes. I literally buy these screws by the thousands and probably
>> have 1~2 thousand pocket hole screws right now. Don't be afraid to use
>> them. I picked up 2, 500 count boxes of Kreg screws at the WW show and
>> paid $34 for 1000 screws. That is 3.4 cents each.
>
> You got taken! Here's my order:
>
> Kreg SML-C125-500 1-1/4-Inch #8 Coarse Pocket Hole Screws with
> Washer-Head, 500-Pack
> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $15.43
>
> Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Screws with
> Washer-Head, 1000-Pack
> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $16.99
Damn I did get taken and directly by Kreg!!! 1000 screws for $17 is
cheeeeep.
On 4/12/2012 7:33 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 8:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 1:33 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2012 1:51 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 4/11/2012 10:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>>> On 4/11/2012 10:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>>>>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will
>>>>>>> serve
>>>>>>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at
>>>>>>> home,
>>>>>>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic
>>>>>>> layout:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree
>>>>>>> angle
>>>>>>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to
>>>>>>> prevent
>>>>>>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would
>>>>>>> fasten
>>>>>>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
>>>>>>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two
>>>>>>> screws in
>>>>>>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about
>>>>>> a 5"
>>>>>> width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
>>>>>> longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
>>>>>> edge is not too close.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x
>>>>> material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25"
>>>>> screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also
>>>>> have
>>>>> a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each
>>>>> critical joint also.
>>>>
>>>> Ha, Ha, ha,,,, you said more than you will ever need... LOL ;~)
>>>> I think I once said that 25 years ago...
>>>
>>> I figured I needed 50-60 for this project; a few more if I'm putting 3
>>> in each joint on the main supports. I wanted to order 200 each of coarse
>>> (for this job and future plywood ideas) and fine (for face frames). But
>>> the next increment up from 100 was 1000 for the fine and 500 for the
>>> coarse, and the prices were only marginally more than for 2 boxes of
>>> 100, so...
>>>>
>>>> These Kreg pocket hole screws are excellent screws and not just for
>>>> pocket holes. I literally buy these screws by the thousands and
>>>> probably
>>>> have 1~2 thousand pocket hole screws right now. Don't be afraid to use
>>>> them. I picked up 2, 500 count boxes of Kreg screws at the WW show and
>>>> paid $34 for 1000 screws. That is 3.4 cents each.
>>>
>>> You got taken! Here's my order:
>>>
>>> Kreg SML-C125-500 1-1/4-Inch #8 Coarse Pocket Hole Screws with
>>> Washer-Head, 500-Pack
>>> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $15.43
>>>
>>> Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Screws with
>>> Washer-Head, 1000-Pack
>>> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $16.99
>>
>> Damn I did get taken and directly by Kreg!!! 1000 screws for $17 is
>> cheeeeep.
>>
> Free shipping too. :)
>
> Well, on orders of $25 or more, anyway. But before you get to feeling
> too jealous, I made a bit of a "screw"-up. I decided on the pocket hole
> method while I was away from my home shop, and ordered screws assuming
> the wood was 3/4". It's 1". So now I have to order 1.5" screws. There's
> a pretty good deal on those as well, but I have to either eat the
> shipping or pad the order to make $25.
>
Pad the order!!! You will eventually use those extra screws and I think
that as you use them you will find many other uses for them.
AND that pocket hole bit can be used for normal counter sink drilling.
it drills a 3/8" hole so you can even plug the hole after sinking the
screw. I much prefer the Kreg washer and pan head pocket hole screws
over the common flat head wood screw.
On Apr 11, 1:33=A0pm, Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 1:51 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4/11/2012 10:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> >> On 4/11/2012 10:58 AM, Leon wrote:
> >>> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> >>>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will
> >>>> serve
> >>>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home=
,
> >>>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from t=
he
> >>>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout=
:
>
> >>>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/ligh=
...
>
> >>>> and some of the wood it came from:
>
> >>>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/ligh=
...
>
> >>>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up
> >>>> from
> >>>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to
> >>>> use
> >>>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree
> >>>> angle
> >>>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to
> >>>> prevent
> >>>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>
> >>>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fas=
ten
> >>>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used th=
e
> >>>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found
> >>>> the
> >>>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>
> >>>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of speci=
fic
> >>>> questions.
>
> >>>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
> >>>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two
> >>>> screws in
> >>>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>
> >>> The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about a=
5"
> >>> width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
> >>> longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
> >>> edge is not too close.
>
> >> That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x
> >> material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25"
> >> screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also hav=
e
> >> a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each
> >> critical joint also.
>
> > Ha, Ha, ha,,,, you said more than you will ever need... LOL ;~)
> > I think I once said that 25 years ago...
>
> I figured I needed 50-60 for this project; a few more if I'm putting 3
> in each joint on the main supports. I wanted to order 200 each of coarse
> (for this job and future plywood ideas) and fine (for face frames). But
> the next increment up from 100 was 1000 for the fine and 500 for the
> coarse, and the prices were only marginally more than for 2 boxes of
> 100, so...
>
>
>
> > These Kreg pocket hole screws are excellent screws and not just for
> > pocket holes. I literally buy these screws by the thousands and probabl=
y
> > have 1~2 thousand pocket hole screws right now. Don't be afraid to use
> > them. I picked up 2, 500 count boxes of Kreg screws at the WW show and
> > paid $34 for 1000 screws. That is 3.4 cents each.
>
> You got taken! Here's my order:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Kreg SML-C125-500 1-1/4-Inch #8 Coarse Pocket Hole Screws=
with
> Washer-Head, 500-Pack
> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) =A0 =A0 $15.43
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Scre=
ws with
> Washer-Head, 1000-Pack
> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) =A0 =A0 $16.99
>
> Try buying a cheap
>
> > crap screw at Home Depot or your local hardware store for that much.
>
> > Just saying don't limit yourself to only using these Kreg screws for
> > pocket holes. They are absolutely a great value for a great screw.
>
> Happy to hear it, now that I'm so well stocked. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
> >>>> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
> >>>> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
> >>>> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) whe=
n
> >>>> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg
> >>>> screws.
>
> >>> Glue would make it stronger and initially more ridged. Depending on h=
ow
> >>> you orientate the boards to each other and climate changes expansion =
and
> >>> contraction will make the glue joint weaker.
>
> >> All of the joints will be (bare) end grain joined to (finished, as of
> >> now)edge grain.
>
> > It is never going to hurt to add glue, plus if the joint is not a great
> > fit the glue can help fill the gap.
>
> OK. Scrape and glue it is. Thanks.
Figure out what sizes you need and order them from Amazon. I bought a
box of 1,000 of the fine thread 1.25" screws about three years ago for
around $20, as I recall. They also had a variety box that contained
675 screws in five sizes (including some fine and coarse). The 1,000
box is still about 1/3 full and the variety box about 1/2 full. What
I found is that the Kreg pan/washer head design has a lot of uses
beyond pocket hole jointry. For example, installed carefully they
provide a neat, attractive way of mounting foam core artwork in our
museum; or doing other work where a low profile head is best.
RonB
On 4/11/2012 10:13 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 11:07 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
>> I "always" glue any kreg project. No reason to scrape your legs.
>
> Really? Even though they are prefinished with whatever Ikea chose to use
> on them? The cut ends of the horizontal pieces are bare wood, but the
> legs have the original finish.
Scrape or use an aggressive grit sand paper.. Glue is going to help
prevent wiggle in the joint should the wood shrink and the screws loosen
any at all.
On 4/11/2012 10:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 10:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve
>>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
>>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
>>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
>>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use
>>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
>>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
>>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>>
>>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
>>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
>>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
>>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>>
>>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
>>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in
>>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>>
>> The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about a 5"
>> width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
>> longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
>> edge is not too close.
>
> That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x
> material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25"
> screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also have
> a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each
> critical joint also.
Ha, Ha, ha,,,, you said more than you will ever need... LOL ;~)
I think I once said that 25 years ago...
These Kreg pocket hole screws are excellent screws and not just for
pocket holes. I literally buy these screws by the thousands and
probably have 1~2 thousand pocket hole screws right now. Don't be
afraid to use them. I picked up 2, 500 count boxes of Kreg screws at
the WW show and paid $34 for 1000 screws. That is 3.4 cents each. Try
buying a cheap crap screw at Home Depot or your local hardware store for
that much.
Just saying don't limit yourself to only using these Kreg screws for
pocket holes. They are absolutely a great value for a great screw.
>>> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
>>> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
>>> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
>>> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
>>> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg
>>> screws.
>>
>> Glue would make it stronger and initially more ridged. Depending on how
>> you orientate the boards to each other and climate changes expansion and
>> contraction will make the glue joint weaker.
>
> All of the joints will be (bare) end grain joined to (finished, as of
> now)edge grain.
It is never going to hurt to add glue, plus if the joint is not a great
fit the glue can help fill the gap.
On 4/17/2012 12:46 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 4/12/2012 9:11 AM, Dave wrote:
>
>> I guess it's the same idea with Festool. Thirty years ago, the price
>> of a Festool product would have sent me running for the hills.
>> Probably explains many of the comments about Festool here. It doesn't
>> explain Jack though. He's an older guy. He should appreciate the finer
>> things in life.
>
> When I bought my spiral, segmented cutter head planer instead of a
> cheaper 2 or 3 knife planer I did it because I appreciate the finer
> things in life. I didn't buy a Northfield however, knowing the 500 bucks
> I saved on not buying a $645 vacuum would pay for the quality cutter
> head on a good enough, affordable planer, it would not pay for a $20,000
> Northfield planer...
See there Jack the Festool vac you are referencing and did not buy has
already saved you $500 and you have not even bought it yet. ;~)
On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve
> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and some of the wood it came from:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use
> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>
> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>
> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
> questions.
>
> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in
> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about a
5" width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
edge is not too close.
>
> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg screws.
Glue would make it stronger and initially more ridged. Depending on how
you orientate the boards to each other and climate changes expansion and
contraction will make the glue joint weaker.
> Any further tips would also be appreciated.
IIRC the jig has a scale that indicates the correct length screws to use.
On 4/13/2012 7:10 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 06:57:26 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>
>> BTY do you have a Festool Drill yet??? LOL
>
> No, but it's just because of sheer stubbornness. About two years ago,
> just before I made my first Festool purchase (Domino and CT22), I
> bought a kit (5 tools and an accessory) of 18v DeWalt tools. And then,
> not too long ago, my tool dealer talked me into buying a 12v Li-ion
> impact drill. So, I have to wait until something dies, even a battery.
> I *have* been thinking of helping something along with a hammer, but
> hat would be cheating.
>
>> My Makita's batteries were pooping out and I have already replaced them
>> once... My wife bought me a T15-3 drill set. This is the first drill
>> that I consider better than my first cordless drill, a Panasonic.
>
> Well, I don't have a wife. Maybe I can borrow yours around Christmas
> time?
Heck yeah! And give her the money like I did. LOL
On 4/11/2012 10:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve as
> a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home, and a
> bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the Ikea bed
> my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and some of the wood it came from:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use a
> damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>
> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>
> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
> questions.
>
> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support slat?
> The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in each
> joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>
> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg pieces
> where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already finished.
> That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to "rack" (is that
> the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when someone sits on it.
> The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg screws.
>
> Any further tips would also be appreciated.
I've recently found out that joints with pocket screws are a lot stronger
than I ever would have expected. I'd built utilitarian things like brackets
to hold up my DC piping with them but when the need came to knock together
a quick TV stand for Mom's new flatscreen I took a chance and used the Kreg
for something serious. As it happened some wide white oak and some thick
white oak were on the top of the wood rack after a cleanup so they were
elected. The stand is 31 X 11 X 21 (WDH) the top and bottom are each held
in place by two 1-1/4" fine-thread Kreg screws into the leg at right angles
at each corner (eight per shelf) and the middle shelf floats on some
homemade 3/16" brass pins and can fit at three different spacings or it can
be removed entirely. So, seven pieces of wood, 16 Kreg screws, and 4 brass
pins later I can say that you _can_ use pocket screws for decent furniture
when you don't want to use traditional joinery.
The stand passed my wiggle test -- sit my 200 pounds down on it and wiggle
and if it stands solid it passes. One change I might have made would have
been to use longer screws but I only had fine-thread in the shorter length;
going from shelf into leg I could have use 1-1/2" for a bit more strength.
As for how close to the edge, there seems to be very little chance of a
blowout but I wouldn't get too close simply to make sure that there was
enough wood for strength left on both sides of the hole. The recesses on my
shelves are 1-1/4" square wrapped around 1-1/2" legs and the holes were
roughly centered on each side of the recesses. Had the legs been slightly
beefier and/or the recesses slightly larger I could have used two holes
side-by-side instead of singles but this would have been pushing it in such
a short distance. I didn't glue at all since I've found that cross-grain
and end-grain glue gains very little strength and that usually goes away
after the first seasonal change.
http://johnmcgaw.com/image/OAK_TV_STAND.jpg
On Apr 12, 10:10=A0am, John McGaw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I've recently found out that joints with pocket screws are a lot stronger
> than I ever would have expected.
<SNIP>
> The stand passed my wiggle test -- sit my 200 pounds down on it and wiggl=
e
> and if it stands solid it passes.
After making a couple of test joints I decided to forgo the glue.
Here's the result:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/7099721377/in/photostream/lightbox/
and without the top slats to show the structure:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/7099715837/in/photostream/lightbox/
We put about 450 pounds on it with no hint of wiggle. This pocket
screw thing has real possibilities. I built a shelf for a chain saw
(in a few minutes) yesterday with them also.
On 4/11/2012 7:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve
> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
> and a bench the rest of the time.
> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
> questions.
>
> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in
> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
I would do the spacing on the jig.
Yes ....2 screws will be fine.
I would use the longer screws for this project
http://www.kregtool.com/PocketHole-Screws-and-Plugs-Prodlist.html
Close to the edge is not an issue.
Note the project at the beginning of video.
This video will help you a LOT in this project.
>
> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg screws.
I "always" glue any kreg project. No reason to scrape your legs.
To prevent any racking I would add a cross piece between each set of
legs and a longer cross piece going between each leg set.
It would make it look better and be much stronger.
>
> Any further tips would also be appreciated.
On 4/11/2012 11:07 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
> I "always" glue any kreg project. No reason to scrape your legs.
Really? Even though they are prefinished with whatever Ikea chose to use
on them? The cut ends of the horizontal pieces are bare wood, but the
legs have the original finish.
> To prevent any racking I would add a cross piece between each set of
> legs and a longer cross piece going between each leg set.
> It would make it look better and be much stronger.
I have already cut those pieces, although there will only be three
rather than four, to allow the use of a foot pedal.
On 4/11/2012 10:58 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve
>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>>
>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>>
>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use
>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>
>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>
>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
>> questions.
>>
>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in
>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>
> The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about a 5"
> width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
> longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
> edge is not too close.
That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x
material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25"
screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also have
a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each
critical joint also.
>> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
>> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
>> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
>> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
>> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg
>> screws.
>
> Glue would make it stronger and initially more ridged. Depending on how
> you orientate the boards to each other and climate changes expansion and
> contraction will make the glue joint weaker.
All of the joints will be (bare) end grain joined to (finished, as of
now)edge grain.
>> Any further tips would also be appreciated.
>
> IIRC the jig has a scale that indicates the correct length screws to use.
The web site had a pdf chart that recommended 1.25" for 3/4" stock,
which is close to the thickness of the Ikeawood. The legs are thicker,
maybe 2" x 2.5".
On 4/11/2012 8:13 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
> Really? Even though they are prefinished with whatever Ikea chose to use
> on them? The cut ends of the horizontal pieces are bare wood, but the
> legs have the original finish.
> I have already cut those pieces, although there will only be three
> rather than four, to allow the use of a foot pedal.
>
OK...if the legs have a finish, a little scraping is in order.
Three pieces was what I was recommending.
For a table that people put ALL sorts of weight on, I would
find a way to glue and screw all joints and adding a gusset
in each corner wouldn't hurt either.
On 4/11/2012 1:51 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 10:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 10:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will
>>>> serve
>>>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
>>>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
>>>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up
>>>> from
>>>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to
>>>> use
>>>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree
>>>> angle
>>>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to
>>>> prevent
>>>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>>>
>>>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
>>>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
>>>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found
>>>> the
>>>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
>>>> questions.
>>>>
>>>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
>>>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two
>>>> screws in
>>>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>>>
>>> The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about a 5"
>>> width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
>>> longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
>>> edge is not too close.
>>
>> That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x
>> material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25"
>> screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also have
>> a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each
>> critical joint also.
>
> Ha, Ha, ha,,,, you said more than you will ever need... LOL ;~)
> I think I once said that 25 years ago...
I figured I needed 50-60 for this project; a few more if I'm putting 3
in each joint on the main supports. I wanted to order 200 each of coarse
(for this job and future plywood ideas) and fine (for face frames). But
the next increment up from 100 was 1000 for the fine and 500 for the
coarse, and the prices were only marginally more than for 2 boxes of
100, so...
>
> These Kreg pocket hole screws are excellent screws and not just for
> pocket holes. I literally buy these screws by the thousands and probably
> have 1~2 thousand pocket hole screws right now. Don't be afraid to use
> them. I picked up 2, 500 count boxes of Kreg screws at the WW show and
> paid $34 for 1000 screws. That is 3.4 cents each.
You got taken! Here's my order:
Kreg SML-C125-500 1-1/4-Inch #8 Coarse Pocket Hole Screws with
Washer-Head, 500-Pack
Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $15.43
Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Screws with
Washer-Head, 1000-Pack
Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $16.99
Try buying a cheap
> crap screw at Home Depot or your local hardware store for that much.
>
> Just saying don't limit yourself to only using these Kreg screws for
> pocket holes. They are absolutely a great value for a great screw.
Happy to hear it, now that I'm so well stocked. :)
>>>> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
>>>> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
>>>> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
>>>> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
>>>> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg
>>>> screws.
>>>
>>> Glue would make it stronger and initially more ridged. Depending on how
>>> you orientate the boards to each other and climate changes expansion and
>>> contraction will make the glue joint weaker.
>>
>> All of the joints will be (bare) end grain joined to (finished, as of
>> now)edge grain.
>
> It is never going to hurt to add glue, plus if the joint is not a great
> fit the glue can help fill the gap.
OK. Scrape and glue it is. Thanks.
On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve
> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and some of the wood it came from:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use
> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>
> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>
> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
> questions.
>
> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in
> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>
> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg screws.
>
> Any further tips would also be appreciated.
Rather than the 3 sided bracing, consider bracing front to back on each
end with a single cross piece at their midpoint.
--
___________________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven
On 4/11/2012 5:59 PM, DanG wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve
>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the
>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>>
>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>>
>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use
>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>
>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>
>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
>> questions.
>>
>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in
>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>>
>> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg
>> pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already
>> finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to
>> "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when
>> someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg
>> screws.
>>
>> Any further tips would also be appreciated.
>
>
> Rather than the 3 sided bracing, consider bracing front to back on each
> end with a single cross piece at their midpoint.
>
I realize now that that is what another poster must have meant as well.
It's hard to describe spatial concepts in text sometimes.
I have two possible difficulties with your idea. The first is that the
long brace that I cut would now be just a tad short to do it your way. I
don't think I have any pieces long enough left. In addition, it might
obstruct access to the damper pedal when I use it with the keyboard.
I'll think about it.
On 4/11/2012 8:48 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 1:33 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 1:51 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2012 10:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>> On 4/11/2012 10:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 4/11/2012 9:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>>>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will
>>>>>> serve
>>>>>> as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home,
>>>>>> and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree
>>>>>> angle
>>>>>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to
>>>>>> prevent
>>>>>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would
>>>>>> fasten
>>>>>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
>>>>>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support
>>>>>> slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two
>>>>>> screws in
>>>>>> each joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>>>>>
>>>>> The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about
>>>>> a 5"
>>>>> width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want
>>>>> longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the
>>>>> edge is not too close.
>>>>
>>>> That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x
>>>> material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25"
>>>> screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also have
>>>> a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each
>>>> critical joint also.
>>>
>>> Ha, Ha, ha,,,, you said more than you will ever need... LOL ;~)
>>> I think I once said that 25 years ago...
>>
>> I figured I needed 50-60 for this project; a few more if I'm putting 3
>> in each joint on the main supports. I wanted to order 200 each of coarse
>> (for this job and future plywood ideas) and fine (for face frames). But
>> the next increment up from 100 was 1000 for the fine and 500 for the
>> coarse, and the prices were only marginally more than for 2 boxes of
>> 100, so...
>>>
>>> These Kreg pocket hole screws are excellent screws and not just for
>>> pocket holes. I literally buy these screws by the thousands and probably
>>> have 1~2 thousand pocket hole screws right now. Don't be afraid to use
>>> them. I picked up 2, 500 count boxes of Kreg screws at the WW show and
>>> paid $34 for 1000 screws. That is 3.4 cents each.
>>
>> You got taken! Here's my order:
>>
>> Kreg SML-C125-500 1-1/4-Inch #8 Coarse Pocket Hole Screws with
>> Washer-Head, 500-Pack
>> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $15.43
>>
>> Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Screws with
>> Washer-Head, 1000-Pack
>> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $16.99
>
> Damn I did get taken and directly by Kreg!!! 1000 screws for $17 is
> cheeeeep.
>
Free shipping too. :)
Well, on orders of $25 or more, anyway. But before you get to feeling
too jealous, I made a bit of a "screw"-up. I decided on the pocket hole
method while I was away from my home shop, and ordered screws assuming
the wood was 3/4". It's 1". So now I have to order 1.5" screws. There's
a pretty good deal on those as well, but I have to either eat the
shipping or pad the order to make $25.
On 4/12/2012 10:10 AM, John McGaw wrote:
> On 4/11/2012 10:18 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will
>> serve as
>> a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home, and a
>> bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the Ikea bed
>> my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6910589242/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>>
>> and some of the wood it came from:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6909398376/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>>
>> It will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from
>> the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to
>> use a
>> damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle
>> corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent
>> the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.
>>
>> I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten
>> them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the
>> system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the
>> promotional videos are generally accurate ;)
>>
>> I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific
>> questions.
>>
>> How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support slat?
>> The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in each
>> joint. How close to the edge is too close?
>>
>> Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg pieces
>> where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already finished.
>> That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to "rack" (is that
>> the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when someone sits on it.
>> The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg screws.
>>
>> Any further tips would also be appreciated.
>
> I've recently found out that joints with pocket screws are a lot
> stronger than I ever would have expected. I'd built utilitarian things
> like brackets to hold up my DC piping with them but when the need came
> to knock together a quick TV stand for Mom's new flatscreen I took a
> chance and used the Kreg for something serious. As it happened some wide
> white oak and some thick white oak were on the top of the wood rack
> after a cleanup so they were elected. The stand is 31 X 11 X 21 (WDH)
> the top and bottom are each held in place by two 1-1/4" fine-thread Kreg
> screws into the leg at right angles at each corner (eight per shelf) and
> the middle shelf floats on some homemade 3/16" brass pins and can fit at
> three different spacings or it can be removed entirely. So, seven pieces
> of wood, 16 Kreg screws, and 4 brass pins later I can say that you _can_
> use pocket screws for decent furniture when you don't want to use
> traditional joinery.
>
> The stand passed my wiggle test -- sit my 200 pounds down on it and
> wiggle and if it stands solid it passes. One change I might have made
> would have been to use longer screws but I only had fine-thread in the
> shorter length; going from shelf into leg I could have use 1-1/2" for a
> bit more strength.
>
> As for how close to the edge, there seems to be very little chance of a
> blowout but I wouldn't get too close simply to make sure that there was
> enough wood for strength left on both sides of the hole. The recesses on
> my shelves are 1-1/4" square wrapped around 1-1/2" legs and the holes
> were roughly centered on each side of the recesses. Had the legs been
> slightly beefier and/or the recesses slightly larger I could have used
> two holes side-by-side instead of singles but this would have been
> pushing it in such a short distance. I didn't glue at all since I've
> found that cross-grain and end-grain glue gains very little strength and
> that usually goes away after the first seasonal change.
>
> http://johnmcgaw.com/image/OAK_TV_STAND.jpg
Thanks. Looks nice, by the way (and perhaps even within my skill range).
I grabbed a couple of pieces from the Guarino Museum of Test Scraps last
night and made my first Kreg joint, oak 1x2 and 1x3 fastened at a right
angle (like two sides of a butt-jointed picture frame). I didn't bother
clamping it while I drove the screws, and the result was (predictably)
ever so slightly out of alignment. But it had a satisfying feeling of
"grab" as the screws went in and the joint felt very solid. Looks
promising.
On 4/12/2012 7:10 AM, John McGaw wrote:
>
> I've recently found out that joints with pocket screws are a lot
> stronger than I ever would have expected.
> http://johnmcgaw.com/image/OAK_TV_STAND.jpg
That's pretty cool John...I been loving the Kreg deal for
about 10 years now and it is a way to do nice projects.
On 4/12/2012 3:04 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> http://johnmcgaw.com/image/OAK_TV_STAND.jpg
>
> Thanks. Looks nice, by the way (and perhaps even within my skill range).
Geez. I just had a quick look at some of your other projects. The TV
stand is among the few that would be within my (current) skill range.
On 4/12/2012 9:11 AM, Dave wrote:
> I guess it's the same idea with Festool. Thirty years ago, the price
> of a Festool product would have sent me running for the hills.
> Probably explains many of the comments about Festool here. It doesn't
> explain Jack though. He's an older guy. He should appreciate the finer
> things in life.
When I bought my spiral, segmented cutter head planer instead of a
cheaper 2 or 3 knife planer I did it because I appreciate the finer
things in life. I didn't buy a Northfield however, knowing the 500
bucks I saved on not buying a $645 vacuum would pay for the quality
cutter head on a good enough, affordable planer, it would not pay for a
$20,000 Northfield planer...
> Must be senility.
Possible, I ain't gettin' younger.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/12/2012 10:10 AM, John McGaw wrote:
> I've recently found out that joints with pocket screws are a lot
> stronger than I ever would have expected.
Yes, pocket screws are great. One of the few "shortcuts" I found that
does what everyone says it does. I of course use the cheap $40 Kreg
thing-ee:-)
I didn't glue at all since I've found that cross-grain and end-grain
glue gains very little
strength and that usually goes away after the first seasonal change.
Same, I never use glue with pocket screws, and it's meaningless in edge
grain.
> http://johnmcgaw.com/image/OAK_TV_STAND.jpg
Nice work, lots of nice work, once I found your WW page.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 06:57:26 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>BTY do you have a Festool Drill yet??? LOL
No, but it's just because of sheer stubbornness. About two years ago,
just before I made my first Festool purchase (Domino and CT22), I
bought a kit (5 tools and an accessory) of 18v DeWalt tools. And then,
not too long ago, my tool dealer talked me into buying a 12v Li-ion
impact drill. So, I have to wait until something dies, even a battery.
I *have* been thinking of helping something along with a hammer, but
hat would be cheating.
>My Makita's batteries were pooping out and I have already replaced them
>once... My wife bought me a T15-3 drill set. This is the first drill
>that I consider better than my first cordless drill, a Panasonic.
Well, I don't have a wife. Maybe I can borrow yours around Christmas
time?
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:02:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Yeah I know LOL. And I have always said that if you are happy with the
>price you paid, you got a good deal. I was happy, I did not have to
>make a special trip or order the screws.
With me, it's not so much money anymore. Now it's the type of service
I get coupled with a measure of instant gratification thrown in.
Same thing with food. Now that I'm 58, it's not about eating quantity
anymore. I can't eat 1/4 of the amount of food I used to be able to.
Now, it's all about eating quality. When it comes to eating now, taste
is everything.
I guess it's the same idea with Festool. Thirty years ago, the price
of a Festool product would have sent me running for the hills.
Probably explains many of the comments about Festool here. It doesn't
explain Jack though. He's an older guy. He should appreciate the finer
things in life.
Must be senility.
On 4/12/2012 8:11 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:02:50 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Yeah I know LOL. And I have always said that if you are happy with the
>> price you paid, you got a good deal. I was happy, I did not have to
>> make a special trip or order the screws.
>
> With me, it's not so much money anymore. Now it's the type of service
> I get coupled with a measure of instant gratification thrown in.
>
> Same thing with food. Now that I'm 58, it's not about eating quantity
> anymore. I can't eat 1/4 of the amount of food I used to be able to.
> Now, it's all about eating quality. When it comes to eating now, taste
> is everything.
Dam you are old!!! I am only 57 1/2. ;~) Till August ;~(
> I guess it's the same idea with Festool. Thirty years ago, the price
> of a Festool product would have sent me running for the hills.
> Probably explains many of the comments about Festool here. It doesn't
> explain Jack though. He's an older guy. He should appreciate the finer
> things in life.
>
> Must be senility.
I think Jack may not yet be comfortable with changing his mind. I
originally thought Festool was way over priced too. Then I actually
used the tool and ummmmm changed my mind.
BTY do you have a Festool Drill yet??? LOL
My Makita's batteries were pooping out and I have already replaced them
once... My wife bought me a T15-3 drill set. This is the first drill
that I consider better than my first cordless drill, a Panasonic.
Greg Guarino wrote:
> On Apr 12, 10:10 am, John McGaw<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I've recently found out that joints with pocket screws are a lot stronger
>> than I ever would have expected.
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> The stand passed my wiggle test -- sit my 200 pounds down on it and wiggle
>> and if it stands solid it passes.
>
> After making a couple of test joints I decided to forgo the glue.
> Here's the result:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/7099721377/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and without the top slats to show the structure:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/7099715837/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> We put about 450 pounds on it with no hint of wiggle. This pocket
> screw thing has real possibilities. I built a shelf for a chain saw
> (in a few minutes) yesterday with them also.
I built a Japanese style bridge 8 years ago in the back yard.
Initially I was going to put the rails on by mortising them into the
upright posts. Decided to to it quick and dirty with pocket hole
screws. I filled the holes with dowels, then sawed them flush with a
LV flush cut saw. It is still sturdy and still looks good. Picture
in ABPW.
--
G.W. Ross
Sex is like a bridge game: If you
don't have a good partner, you'd
better have a good hand.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:48:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Screws with
>> Washer-Head, 1000-Pack
>> Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $16.99
>Damn I did get taken and directly by Kreg!!! 1000 screws for $17 is
>cheeeeep.
Well, initially you considered your purchase price to be a deal. No
reason why that idea should change. And now, you know for next time.
There's always a cheaper price somewhere else, but is it worth your
time to find that cheaper price?