J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
: Robert Galloway wrote:
:> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
:> crops as fertilizer.
: That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes used
: as rocket fuel.
Check out
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC2326.html
I remember farmers using anhydrous ammonia going up.
:> rhg
:>
:> PSobon wrote:
:>
:>> Hey all,
:>> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
:>> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
:>> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
:>> luck. TIA
: --
: --John
: Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
: (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anhydrous ammonia is mentioned in Bruce Hoadley's book. It is apparently the
best method of bending wood (similar to steam bending).
He points out thought it is best used in an industrial setting, since it can
take days to plasticize the wood, requires special ventilation, is really
toxic, and I would not be surprised if, after a mistake, considering the need
for industrial equipment, the NYS DEC and the EPA will be all over you like a
pack of wolves (and they would probably be right).
Even assuming the stuff gets used safely, whcih is a really big BUT, how do you
then dispose of it? Put it into a local sewer, if you actually survive it, you
will probably be prosecuted.
On 29 Jul 2004 15:41:58 GMT, [email protected] (DarylRos) wrote:
>Even assuming the stuff gets used safely, whcih is a really big BUT, how do you
>then dispose of it?
Ammonia is easy to dispose of. Just dilute it with plenty of water
and dump it either on soil or into the drainage system. A _lot_ of
ammonia is much less stress on a sewerage system than a tiny amount of
engine oil or paint.
--
Smert' spamionam
If one were applying it to wood, one would do it inside a pressure
vessel and return as much as possible to a pressure tank for reuse. The
amount that escaped into the atmosphere would be a waste and not
"environmentally correct" but not a disaster.
Bob G.
DarylRos wrote:
> Anhydrous ammonia is mentioned in Bruce Hoadley's book. It is apparently the
> best method of bending wood (similar to steam bending).
>
> He points out thought it is best used in an industrial setting, since it can
> take days to plasticize the wood, requires special ventilation, is really
> toxic, and I would not be surprised if, after a mistake, considering the need
> for industrial equipment, the NYS DEC and the EPA will be all over you like a
> pack of wolves (and they would probably be right).
>
> Even assuming the stuff gets used safely, whcih is a really big BUT, how do you
> then dispose of it? Put it into a local sewer, if you actually survive it, you
> will probably be prosecuted.
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:44:43 +0100, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 23 Jul 2004 09:14:48 -0700, [email protected] (PSobon) wrote:
>
>>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)?
>
> Don't mess with anhydrous ammonia. You only need 25%, which is just
> domestic cleaning grade - try a hardware store. ".880" will do, but
> even that's much more concentrated than you need.
Might be called "Strong ammonia". A good chemical supply house should
be able to get it for you. And yes, stay away from anhydrous. Nasty
stuff, major tissue damage as it sucks water from flesh very readily.
Not particularly nice on the eyes (understatement).
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:36:14 -0400, J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robert Galloway wrote:
>
>> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>> crops as fertilizer.
>
> That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes used
> as rocket fuel.
Yup, it's a cryogenic liquid alright. Can't speak to it's use as a rocket
fuel, but yeah, the farmers drag big tanks of the stuff around the
fields, injecting it into the soil to bring up the nitrogen levels.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
> Anhydrous ammonia is very hard to get. On the black market, it can sell for
> $100 a pound.
> It is in very high demand for making drugs (meth).
>
> If you have other solvents like paint thinner, the police and DEA will have
> a field day with you for being in the drug manufacturing business.
>
> Find some other alternative if at all possible!
No - you're thinking of acetic anhydride, used in the production of heroin.
Ammonia isn't useful in drug making as far as I know.
On 4 Aug 2004 13:28:00 GMT, Ed Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> No - you're thinking of acetic anhydride, used in the production of heroin.
> Ammonia isn't useful in drug making as far as I know.
Tell that to the meth-lab folks. The co-op where my brother in law works
has had more than a couple of people stealing anhydrous ammonia from the
tanks out back, with the expected chemical injuries and so on. If you
see a propane tank in an unexpected location, with the brass fittings
a bright blue-green color, ...it's not Propane in the tank.
Dave Hinz
Mea Culpa. Way off. Thinking of CO2. Pressures closer to the 200 psi
mark. Little higher than propane.
Bob G.
Robert Galloway wrote:
> No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature
> at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly
> a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of
> liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little
> warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
>
> Bob G.
>
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Robert Galloway wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>>> crops as fertilizer.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid
>> sometimes used
>> as rocket fuel.
>>
>>
>>> rhg
>>>
>>> PSobon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hey all,
>>>> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>>> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>>>> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>>>> luck. TIA
>>
>>
>>
>
No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature
at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly
a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of
liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little
warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
Bob G.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Robert Galloway wrote:
>
>
>>Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>>crops as fertilizer.
>
>
> That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes used
> as rocket fuel.
>
>
>>rhg
>>
>>PSobon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hey all,
>>>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>>>printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>>>luck. TIA
>
>
"PSobon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hey all,
> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
> luck. TIA
Personally, the first place I'd look would be a chemical supply house. I
believe that ammonia-developed copies are probably becoming more and more
rare and, like you wrote, the drafting supply people are less likely to
carry a potentially dangerous chemical for which there is a diminished
demand.
--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com
Don't know for sure but I believe anhydrous is used in the production
meth amphetamine.
rhg
Ed Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Anhydrous ammonia is very hard to get. On the black market, it can sell for
>>$100 a pound.
>>It is in very high demand for making drugs (meth).
>>
>>If you have other solvents like paint thinner, the police and DEA will have
>>a field day with you for being in the drug manufacturing business.
>>
>>Find some other alternative if at all possible!
>
>
> No - you're thinking of acetic anhydride, used in the production of heroin.
> Ammonia isn't useful in drug making as far as I know.
Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
crops as fertilizer.
rhg
PSobon wrote:
> Hey all,
> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
> luck. TIA
PSobon wrote:
> Hey all,
> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
> luck. TIA
You're not likely to find anhydrous ammonia at retail--it's a gas at room
temperature, highly toxic, and burns well enough to be used as rocket fuel.
You do _not_ want to mess with it unless you have the right facilities and
know what you're doing.
For 25% you might try chemical supply houses of which there have to be
several in North Jersey.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Robert Galloway wrote:
> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
> crops as fertilizer.
That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes used
as rocket fuel.
> rhg
>
> PSobon wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>> luck. TIA
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Back in the early 70s my uncle and a neighbor were the first to borrow and
use the COOP's anhydrous ammonia applicator. Being new and the first meant
getting to use it when it was brand new. But there was a learning curve.
One of the items that was left off the instructions was setting the system
up so as it would apply a set amount of ammonia per acre at a set speed AND
NOT APPLY WHEN THE TRACTOR STOPPED. Well all but the last bit was set up
fine and dandy. They stopped and noticed about 40 seconds after stopping
that ammonia was brubling out of the ground behind the applicator. Well.,
nothing really grew in that spot for at least 3 years and even 5 years after
one could still tell that there was a bit of problem with that little bit of
ground.
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
> : Robert Galloway wrote:
>
> :> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
> :> crops as fertilizer.
>
> : That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes
used
> : as rocket fuel.
>
> Check out
>
> http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC2326.html
>
>
> I remember farmers using anhydrous ammonia going up.
>
>
>
> :> rhg
> :>
> :> PSobon wrote:
> :>
> :>> Hey all,
> :>> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
> :>> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
> :>> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
> :>> luck. TIA
>
> : --
> : --John
> : Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
> : (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
[email protected] wrote:
> J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
> : Robert Galloway wrote:
>
> :> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
> :> crops as fertilizer.
>
> : That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes
> : used as rocket fuel.
>
> Check out
>
> http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC2326.html
>
>
> I remember farmers using anhydrous ammonia going up.
I stand by my statement--it's quite a trick. Farmers is crazier than I is
and that's saying something.
> :> rhg
> :>
> :> PSobon wrote:
> :>
> :>> Hey all,
> :>> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
> :>> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
> :>> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
> :>> luck. TIA
>
> : --
> : --John
> : Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
> : (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Robert Galloway wrote:
> No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature
> at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly
> a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of
> liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little
> warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
Your phonograph is skipping. Or have you ever seen a phonograph?
>
> Bob G.
>
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Robert Galloway wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>>>crops as fertilizer.
>>
>>
>> That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes
>> used as rocket fuel.
>>
>>
>>>rhg
>>>
>>>PSobon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey all,
>>>>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>>>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>>>>printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>>>>luck. TIA
>>
>>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Robert Galloway wrote:
> No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature
> at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly
> a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of
> liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little
> warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
I've got some idea what one has to go through to create a system like the
one described, and in my book somebody did a hell of a job of
engineering--that's "quite a trick" in my book.
As for LOX and liquid nitrogen, so what?
Why is so important to you that this be considered to be something that is
trivial to do?
>
> Bob G.
>
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Robert Galloway wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>>>crops as fertilizer.
>>
>>
>> That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes
>> used as rocket fuel.
>>
>>
>>>rhg
>>>
>>>PSobon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey all,
>>>>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>>>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>>>>printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>>>>luck. TIA
>>
>>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature
at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly
a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of
liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little
warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
Bob G.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Robert Galloway wrote:
>
>
>>Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>>crops as fertilizer.
>
>
> That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes used
> as rocket fuel.
>
>
>>rhg
>>
>>PSobon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hey all,
>>>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>>>printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>>>luck. TIA
>
>
Anhydrous ammonia is very hard to get. On the black market, it can sell for
$100 a pound.
It is in very high demand for making drugs (meth).
If you have other solvents like paint thinner, the police and DEA will have
a field day with you for being in the drug manufacturing business.
Find some other alternative if at all possible!
Al Olson
"Robert Galloway" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
> crops as fertilizer.
>
> rhg
>
> PSobon wrote:
>
> > Hey all,
> > Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
> > aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
> > printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
> > luck. TIA
>
On 23 Jul 2004 09:14:48 -0700, [email protected] (PSobon) wrote:
>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)?
Don't mess with anhydrous ammonia. You only need 25%, which is just
domestic cleaning grade - try a hardware store. ".880" will do, but
even that's much more concentrated than you need.
Once again, why don't you come up with a valid address? It's not
important to me to imply that bending with ammonia would be trivial. I
want to set the record straight that the stuff is not limited to
rocketry but on the contrary is sitting around all over the agricultural
parts of the country in large tanks (like propane) on wagon running gear
and is used all the time by farmers, not rocket scientist. It's been
used as a refrigerant in commercial units. The only domestic
refrigerator I'm familiar with that used ammonia was the Servel. This
little honey had no moving parts in the refrigeration circuit and the
only energy input was a gas flame. Ammonia was the refrigerant. There
may have been domestic mechanical refrigerators using ammonia of which
I'm unaware. I think cryogenic liquids (don't hold me to this but I
think it's the case) are defined as those that cannot be maintained as a
liquid at room temperature. They are generated and maintained at
extremely cold temperatures. LOX, LN2 etc. are examples of cryogenic
liquid. I didn't bring up rocketry and I'm not aware of uses for
ammonia in rocketry but they may exist. Any clever putterer who wanted
badly enough to experiment with ammonia bending could do so safely.
Now... the bit about use by meth labs and attracting the authorities,
that would be another matter.
Bob G.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Robert Galloway wrote:
>
>
>>No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature
>>at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly
>>a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of
>>liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little
>>warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
>
>
> I've got some idea what one has to go through to create a system like the
> one described, and in my book somebody did a hell of a job of
> engineering--that's "quite a trick" in my book.
>
> As for LOX and liquid nitrogen, so what?
>
> Why is so important to you that this be considered to be something that is
> trivial to do?
>
>
>>Bob G.
>>
>>J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Robert Galloway wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>>>>crops as fertilizer.
>>>
>>>
>>>That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes
>>>used as rocket fuel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>rhg
>>>>
>>>>PSobon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hey all,
>>>>>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>>>>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>>>>>printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>>>>>luck. TIA
>>>
>>>
>
If you provided a valid address, I could answer your question without
clogging up the news group. I'm not sure why you're interested in
whether I've ever seen a phonograph but yes. Have wound the spring on a
number of them. Never owned one that used the cylinders. ' spent a fair
amount of time listening to them.
Bob G.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Robert Galloway wrote:
>
>
>>No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature
>>at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly
>>a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of
>>liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little
>>warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
>
>
> Your phonograph is skipping. Or have you ever seen a phonograph?
>
>
>>Bob G.
>>
>>J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Robert Galloway wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to
>>>>crops as fertilizer.
>>>
>>>
>>>That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes
>>>used as rocket fuel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>rhg
>>>>
>>>>PSobon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hey all,
>>>>>Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell
>>>>>aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and
>>>>>printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no
>>>>>luck. TIA
>>>
>>>
>